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[Music] details [Music] oh Once Upon a Time in the perfect town of Boulder there was a pretty little
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princess who everyone loved Little Miss Christmas they called her she lived in a
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castle with the prince and the king and queen she was very happy and quite wise for her
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years off to the fairest of them all contests she would go with her mother the queen before crowds of people she
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would dance and sing in costumes and gowns a top of Parade floats she would smile and wave to the town's people and
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their children she was the Envy of several and caught the eye of more than a few at the very heart of a holiday
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season filled with parties and feast was the Annual Festival to celebrate the birth of the Christ
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child a day of gifts and Gathering Good Tidings and well wishes for the year to come it was on this day that little miss
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Christmas shined so bright with enthusiasm laughter and cheer she was a pretty little princess in a perfect
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little town she was so happy and so was everyone around her or so they thought by day's end it was on this
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night that the king and the queen would return the little princess and the prince back to the castle for a night of
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Slumber and dreams before the adventure of a new day but something was was not right in
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fact something was terribly wrong and a great tragedy befell the little princess under the black cloak of the
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night the princess was mysteriously slain threats and instructions were delivered a ransom was demanded but
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never collected rules and Promises were broken the authorities were summoned and
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the priest in Fellowship arrived D the castle was full and the king and queen surrounded the princess was
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found she'd been killed and displayed in a hellish fashion left strangled and bound in the darkest depths of the
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Castle's dungeon surely the killer was an enemy a monstrous Maniac who penetrated
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the castle walls to slay the little princess or perhaps it was an evil from within was the princess a victim of a
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dirty little secret or the violent Rage of one of her own and so it was written and so it was
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told the riddle of the pretty little princess found mysteriously slain inside her
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castle the authorities the town's people and the looky L who came from near and far declared there were only two
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possible solutions to this quandry the family or an intruder this is true crab garage very excited today Captain
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because veteran crime journalist Steven singular is joining us here today in the
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garage with his wife Joyce to offer an original perspective on the killing of John Benet Ramsey Steven singular was in
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Boulder Colorado for much of the murder investigation in his book presumed guilty stevenh singular methodically
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details a volatile situation he asserts that great confusion in the public perception of the case inflamed tensions
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among the district attorney and the Boulder Police Department and other factions to a point where the
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investigation may be stalemated singular perspective exploration of the near Universal call for the Ramsay's heads
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reveals the gritty power struggles and class schisms that underline the shiny comforting facade of the boulder region
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Steven singular calls into question and overlooked possible very important aspect of this case John Benet was was
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merely one of many little girls leeringly displayed as things of beauty by the child pageant industry whose evil
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twin is the child porn producers and collectors which in the '90s was hugely expanded because of the internet
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although Steven claims at points to have uncovered voluminous evidence he incorporates a few of the particulars
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giving his own conspiracy theory singular ultimate scenario that neither parent personally murdered John Benet
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but one parents unwitting involvement led to attempts at concealment Bears consideration and that is why I invited
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Stephen and Joyce singular to join us here today in the garage to discuss many of the aspects of this case that I would
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wager that many have never heard of before we want to welcome you to the garage and thanks for joining us here
00:07:53
today Stephen and Joyce for years we've been spoonfed this idea that we have to come to one of the the following two
00:08:00
conclusions in this case either the family did it or an intruder did it and you say maybe there's some other
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questions that we should be asking about this still unsolved murder case so Mr Singler why not the ramies there was no
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pathology at all emerging from the Ramsay family uh no even anecdotal examples of you know slapping
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a child or abusing a child in some way um no no connection of John to that sort of thing either so it it it was just uh
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looking like this might be a more complicated case than was basically being presented as soon as the py did it
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Theory came out on the one hand you know the Ramsay themselves were were promoting or their team I should say
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their legal team more the idea of the Intruder did it but when you look at that as far as I am aware there there
00:09:01
has never been a case in American Crime history where there's a body and a ransom note in the same location and so
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that raised all kinds of questions and issues that didn't seem to make any sense so we started just thinking I mean
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again months go by and all of January all of February all of March about a 100 days and there's no movement at all in
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the case and we started to BAS basically asked the question is there a third option here and then you have to
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remember that this was the beginning also of the 24hour cable news cycle so they kept
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repeat repeatedly showing that the images of jine you know walking across the stage in various costumes singing
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dancing this was shown a lot and it got into people's psyche and Consciousness and people started you know making
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judgments and you know people would um even local media people um talk show hosts
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would you know just pound into the microphone that oh paty did it paty had to have done it paty did it you know py
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did this paty did that and we just thought that was wrong to be potentially influencing a jury pool you know um and
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so we we just just decided to go look in other areas that hadn't and weren't being investigated
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right so as Joyce said earlier when we we started talking to the pageant mothers who again some of them knew Psy
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quite well and uh and knew John banet and they kept telling us the same story over and over again that that her
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primary photographer Randy Simons had behaved very bizarrely in the aftermath of the murder they' hadd known him for
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years he'd taken pictures of their daughters at pageants and other venues and they said he was calling them up
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after midnight screaming and crying saying I did not kill John Benet I did not kill John Benet but nobody had
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accused him of killing John man he so it was like me thinks he does protest too much it was very odd very odd that he is
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defending himself when nobody's accusing him of the crime was there anything odd
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or weird about the ramies the one thing about the Ramsay family that was unusual
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was that they did dressed John B up like this and you know put her out into the world of beauty pageants some of the
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mothers said that there were very suspect characters that came to the to the child pageant and were in that world
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uh even people they had asked to to be removed from it so it is true that that that was unusual that py did that with
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John Benet but that open the whole case up to a whole other subcultures well it wasn't it wasn't
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unusual in the fact that the pageant the pageant world was much more prevalent in
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the South it was a much bigger deal in the southern states than it was here in the northern states you know of course
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you would see the random Kitty pageant if you went to a mall back in those days but the the what we thought was that you
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know J was an extraordinarily beautiful child and she would had a lot of makeup on and a lot of provocative costumes and
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we the natural thought was who might have inadvertently been sexually charged by watching her in in those in those
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pageant or in those costumes who who might you be inadvertently stimulating you know um a
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sponsor a spectator a judge anybody right so again a 100 days went by there was no movement in the case I decided to
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contact the district attorney and Boulder Alex Hunter and and to my real surprise he invited me to come up there
00:13:05
and meet with him and talk about some of the things that that you know we've been
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looking into some of the people we've been talking to and the whole internet angle of this with child porn just uh
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seemingly running rampid you know he he didn't know the name of Randy Simons when Steve presented it to him he didn't
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know yeah and then he and then when the more information Steve gave him about what we had seen on the uh on the on the
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web he said why don't you conduct a parallel investigation and go look into this because the Boulder police were not
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looking at any other of those angles right he said I really can't get the Boulder Police to investigate anything
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outside the Ramsey family and what he was saying was extremely odd if you really stop and think about it because
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you know going further into that internet world I mean basically you're committing a crime if you're downloading
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child poror or if you're trying to you know access it off the internet so I think it was more just very indicative
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of his frustration in in not being able to sort of enlarge the case and so you know we
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contined to look into Simons and uh and again some of the pageant mothers and again we took information to and this
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went on for a couple of months so it was clear I mean as time went on it was just
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seeming to be more more clear that this is not a simple case and why if it's if it's a complex case should we be limited
00:14:43
to two choices so the book the first version of Presumed guilty came out in July of and June of
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1999 which by that time is 2 and a half years into the case there's still no movement in the case and so that's third
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scenario is being offered up and the third scenario essentially said what if the
00:15:11
Ramsay R the Ramsay have been presented either totally guilty or totally innocent uh what if there's some space
00:15:20
in between there what if they would be may be guilty of something but not guilty of murder is that a possibility
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and would that explain some of the complexities on the surface of the crime such as a body and a ransom that found
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in the same place you met a lot of the players involved and at times your book dances around this idea that maybe there
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are certain people involved in this investigation that don't really want to fully investigate or solve this case I
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found it so interesting that in April of 1997 the ramsy camp publicly stated that
00:15:58
the the leadership in the Boulder Police Department lacks the objectivity and judgment necessary to find the killer of
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John Benet Ramsay that's a quote so that's similar ideas can you talk about some of the players that you met along
00:16:14
the way and talk about the possibility that they may not either want to solve it or may not have the capabilities to
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solve this case one of the aspects of this and the kind of big big view of it and the title you know there is the word
00:16:31
the media and one of the things that happens many times in criminal cases is that you
00:16:40
know the event happens and then the media presents it in a certain way and it is just extremely difficult to get
00:16:49
past you know that first wave of what is presented to the public I mean that's been that's the ramsy case is sort of
00:16:58
the ultimate example of it so 27 years later if you go on the internet today you'll have two groups arguing one will
00:17:06
be Idis the Intruder did it the other group will be RDI the ramsy did it and there's no there's no other alternative
00:17:17
and so that has always been a part of what's fascinated me you know with crime in the modern media and the Ramsey case
00:17:23
is the is the biggest example of it I mean 27 years later you think new idea might be able to enter the
00:17:30
conversation so what happened in the in the Boulder Police Department I mean yes
00:17:37
they were under staffed on the day of the crime yes they did make mistakes in the in the initial hours I mean if you
00:17:44
thought this was a an actual kidnapping you would probably want to get the people out of the house and also as a
00:17:52
private investigator told us once if you don't do homicides a lot you don't do homicides well that's
00:17:58
absolutely a great quote and they they weren't known for a lot of homicide cases in Boulder they had one that year
00:18:07
yeah and so they they did not you know handle the crime scene well and all of that uh the biggest part of that at
00:18:18
least from my perspective is that in in the fall of 1998 which is approaching 2 years years
00:18:28
into the crime um the district attorney Alex Hunter decides to call a grand jury and so that process takes 13 months
00:18:40
most murder cases did not take anything like 13 months to reach some sort of conclusion by the grand
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jury and uh so thir the my book came out in June of 99 the grand jury ended their
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work in October of 99 and Hunter called a big press conference and he said we're not going to indict
00:19:04
anybody and we're going to seal the grand jury's work forever so here you are three months
00:19:11
into the most nor notorious criminal crime or crime ever in Boulder or Colorado and uh the public has spent a
00:19:21
couple million bucks to try and get an investigation going the grand jury heard from uh reported
00:19:28
about a 100 Witnesses and there were about 30,000 pages of documentation and the result of all of
00:19:36
that is we're going to seal this forever and keep it away from the public this it's curious when it
00:19:43
happened in 1999 it's a whole lot more curious what happens later on and that is essentially
00:19:52
that 14 years go by and the local paper and Boulder the camera SES the District Attorney's office which is now on its
00:20:01
Third District Attorney since the crime occurred and they get four of the 18 pages of the grand jury report released
00:20:10
really four paragraphs four paragraphs and this is I think and we think the probably the most important thing to
00:20:18
convey to the audience listening to this the the four paragraphs state that John and paty Ramsey effectively expose
00:20:29
their daughter to the person or persons or circumstances that led to her death and
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that that's count 4 and count 7even says that they then participated in the aftermath of the
00:20:43
crime so that is the middle ground for the case that's not saying the ramsy killed their daughter and it's not
00:20:52
saying an intruder came in the house and killed their daughter it's saying that that some other scenario unfolded on
00:21:01
that night and it and complete guilt or complete innocence is not the conclusion
00:21:06
of the only legal body that's ever studied the case and reached a legal conclusion it's not that to me is not
00:21:16
only the most significant thing that's happened in the last you know 27 years legally regarding the case but what's
00:21:24
just as significant is that the media of effectively totally ignored this and totally stuck with the Intruder Theory
00:21:33
or the Ramsey did it Theory and to me it's one of the reasons it's just it just shows why the case has been
00:21:43
so hard to move forward uh both from the legal perspective and the media perspective so do you think there's a
00:21:50
fundamental question here about this case what the qu the fundamental question is this why does a district
00:21:59
attorney sit a grand jury for 13 months go to all that trouble and expense they reach a legal conclusion that was clear
00:22:10
and then you choose to bury it what is being concealed what's in the other 14 pages why don't they want the
00:22:20
public to know that does the public have the right to know that and what's being
00:22:26
covered up that's the fun FAL question and to in my view it hasn't been pursued Enough by the people really looking into
00:22:37
the case you had a close I don't know if I would call it close but a somewhat working relationship with Alex Hunter
00:22:45
who's the district attorney in Boulder at the time of the murder and you had mentioned to Alex Hunter that you
00:22:52
thought that one part of this investigation should be looking at these child beauty pageants and child
00:22:59
pornography that at the time was blowing up on the internet and he tells you that okay why
00:23:07
don't you go and investigate that I can't get Boulder PD to look into different aspects other than the Ramsay
00:23:15
so clearly right away very early on in 1997 we're already seeing a disconnect between the District Attorney's office
00:23:24
and the police department there was a huge disconnect that police were essentially focused on the Ramsey family
00:23:33
you know the bodies in the house the parents are there and the ransom note is there yeah and let just like Joyce said
00:23:44
if if you don't do homicide investigations well if you don't follow the protocols if you don't expand your
00:23:51
pool of suspects we talked to one of the mothers and she said she said I I'm appalled that they didn't come to me and
00:24:01
take my DNA they should have taken the DNA of a wide wide number of people they did over time but she said I you know I
00:24:10
was around that child my hands were on her because she was you know helping with various things and and she was just
00:24:18
startled and then she uh spoke to the grand jury and she was one of the hundred Witnesses because she was quite
00:24:27
close to the situation and we're not we're not saying that we think Randy Simons is the murderer we're just saying
00:24:35
that there seem to be some sort of connection between photography and child beauty pageants
00:24:41
and photographers surrounding the the the pageants and it should have been looked into and then fast forward in
00:24:49
time when we got a tip through our website and was it 2013 2019 no no 2013 when that woman
00:24:59
came forward through our website and and she lived in a um a trailer park in Oregon and she said that Randy Simons
00:25:10
was living there too and he had offered to take her small daughter granddaughter
00:25:14
to the restroom and she thought it was inappropriate that he should be asking to do that so she Googled his name and
00:25:22
it came up in relation to presumed guilty so she contacted us through the website and we and we've had a telephone
00:25:29
conversation with her so there's that and then in 2019 we get another tip from our website saying that
00:25:40
Randy Simons has been arrested for 15 counts of child pornography again in Oregon he had been
00:25:48
sitting at a public at a restaurant had used their public Wi-Fi and was downloading images of child pornography
00:25:55
and somebody noticed it at the restaurant and they called the police and he got arrested and then he got
00:26:02
indicted and I think they gave him 10 years right yeah he pled he PL out out yeah yeah so there were all of these
00:26:12
other tangents to the case which led into you know larger worlds and I I mean I I initially I liked Alex Hunter I I
00:26:26
thought he he was very curious about the the crime and was not closed-minded and and uh I thought you
00:26:35
know he was trying to do some of the right things and the one time that Steve did get a hold of Randy starmans this
00:26:41
was shortly after the crime was committed and he talked to him on the phone briefly and Randy Simons told
00:26:48
Steve I know more about this but I'm not going to tell you and he may have said that to other people as well so uh I so
00:26:58
it's it's odd that a 100 days into a criminal investigation if you go back to April
00:27:05
1997 they don't know who this guy is the district attorney doesn't know who he is
00:27:10
I don't think the police know who he is and because all of their questioning as I was saying earlier about this woman in
00:27:20
the grand jury was about what kind of mother is py Ramsey is she abusive have you seen her you know do something uh
00:27:30
bad with her child or or the bed wedding issue and you know it's just it it just
00:27:37
uh reveals apparently you know how limited the investigation was at least at that
00:27:44
time anyone that's looked at this case for any length of time knows that young Jean Benet Ramsay participated in beauty
00:27:50
pageants not just in the state of Colorado but also in Michigan Georgia and Dallas but one thing that we learned
00:27:57
that I found fascinating was that she was going to be or at least py wanted her to participate in this very big
00:28:06
prestigious pageant that was going to take place in Las Vegas but her husband John Ramsey says no way we're not going
00:28:14
to Las Vegas to do a child beauty pageant and that was going to take place in 97 yes yeah not long after the the
00:28:23
murder so why would it be so different to John Ramsay to have his daughter participate in a pageant in Las Vegas as
00:28:31
opposed to Georgia Colorado or Michigan you know he lived in Colorado atah Home in Michigan was came from Georgia you
00:28:41
know with his business I think he was probably a little more comfortable in those
00:28:47
places I I think and you know I don't I don't want to speak for John but we heard various from various sources he
00:28:55
wasn't that com comfortable you know with this whole dressing uh uh John B up like a show girl and sending her out on
00:29:05
stage um but if his wife is a you know a cancer survivor this is something she loves to do with her daughter and she
00:29:13
was she was in pageants herself right she was Miss West Virginia she went to the Miss America contest so you know
00:29:20
this was a big deal for her and she was had just she was in remission from ovarian cancer yeah so so you know this
00:29:28
is a this is her her passion with jate yeah and John said we we've met with John you know and had long
00:29:39
conversations uh you know I didn't know everything that was going on um I was very very busy running my business there
00:29:48
in Boulder which had become a billion dooll business and you know he actually said that so you know I I think he was
00:29:59
just kind of going along with it well he he said something to the effect of we we
00:30:04
didn't know we thought Boulder was a nice good place to raise children our children yeah in interviewing him he
00:30:12
said that about four or five times and about the fifth time you you you start to interpret it as we did not know who
00:30:23
our daughter was being exposed to which is almost the language of the grand jury
00:30:30
what not it's not exactly but it is almost the same as saying we didn't really realize who we were surrounded by
00:30:39
and I think that I think he's telling the truth and I think that's about as much as that about that as he could say
00:30:48
so um you know I so I don't I just think he drew the line at Las Vegas because you know has a reputation for being
00:30:59
quite a bit cheesier than than Boulder Colorado or Char boy Michigan and I think he was you know street smart
00:31:08
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today and from your understanding not just within the state of Colorado but regarding these child
00:35:54
pageants were there any types of of Licensing Laws standards or regulations for the pageant circuits or franchises
00:36:02
well we're not we're not experts in that area we I don't believe there were I I I
00:36:07
could be wrong but certainly haven't seen any of them anymore you know I mean but then after that there was you know
00:36:14
on on reality television you saw the rise of these Toddlers and Tiaras and those types of programs people are oddly
00:36:21
fascinated with that um that that subculture you know get dress seen young girls up with false eyelashes and big
00:36:29
haird and you know it's just it's it's kind of a strange world when the case began and we began looking into the
00:36:40
online stuff 97 there were 5,000 worldwide child porn sites by 2000 there were 100,000 people simply don't realize how
00:36:55
much of this activity was going on and that it wasn't just a a sexual underground but it was it was business
00:37:04
as Joyce alluded to earlier there was money to be made from creating images selling images manipulating images yeah
00:37:13
and all of that think think how much more money a say a pH a photographer could make if they were doing illicit
00:37:20
things online as opposed to just doing portrait photography or pageant photography Kitty photography but then
00:37:27
what if they you know some of them had some sort of second job online you know um altering images
00:37:35
digitally and buying and selling that's a much more lucrative business now our our idea was never that Randy s Simons
00:37:44
was involved in the crime but like others he had knowledge of some of the things that we're talking about and and
00:37:53
may have well he obviously was connected to it and some very tangible way at least later on and also two private
00:38:01
investigators that we worked with that were prominent in this case L SMI and olly gray both told us that they thought
00:38:08
that there was some sort of Photography or videography involved surrounding the case they didn't go into much more
00:38:14
detail because private investigators are notoriously closed lipped about when they what they share with you they they
00:38:22
usually want more information than than you you know get back from them but they
00:38:26
both said that to us and they both uh had access to all of the uh evidence you know which obviously the public doesn't
00:38:36
and that goes back to the grand jury which had access to all of the evidence in the case which was massive what led
00:38:45
them to those conclusions to the conclusions that they reached the public doesn't know that and and it's it's hard
00:38:54
to imagine that they didn't have access to some of this kind of information well
00:38:59
but didn't olly gray even say to us that there was you know once he started looking into this in Boulder there was a
00:39:04
lot of sexual subculture going on yeah as there would be in most cities you know every city would probably have some
00:39:12
sort of deviant dark sub sexual subculture going on and as time went on we heard about parties and Boulder
00:39:21
involving children and then after parties involving children and this again raise a whole number of
00:39:30
questions and we heard about you know fairly prominent people persist participating in these things and there
00:39:39
is no place around more conscious of its image than Boulder Colorado you know very liberal very affluent very educated
00:39:48
you know very uh you know politically correct Etc they don't want that image defiled and then we were and then we
00:39:57
were given the poems this part I find very fascinating but also very creepy tell us about these poems that you
00:40:04
received and the poems were given to an attorney friend who had appeared on Fox News after we had relayed information to
00:40:14
to him telling him what we thought you know about these alternate theories he goes on television and like about was it
00:40:22
a year or so after Steve he received these poems anonymously marked on the return envelope for the children Boulder
00:40:30
Colorado even though the postmark was in Denver he ended up turning over these poems to us and they're very
00:40:37
sophisticated very cryptic like something Jack the Ripper would have written but they and they and they turn
00:40:44
phrases around in such a sophisticated way it's astonishing they're online now anybody
00:40:50
can dig them up but um the the way that they gave the names of principles in in the case and turned them around and then
00:40:59
implied that there was this underbelly going on of sexual abuse of children you know by by prominent
00:41:07
people right and one of the poems named U an individual this was written in 2001 2000 or
00:41:19
2001 and it named an individual named John Rossy who's who was not whose name was not a iated with the Ramsey case at
00:41:28
all and 5 years later Rossi was busted on multiple counts of child pornography uh in Westminster which is
00:41:38
very close to Boulder right and and so whoever wrote that poem knew about Rossi knew about child pornography and knew it
00:41:49
was kind of as if they were trying to get this information out to the authorities but didn't want want to be
00:41:56
associated with it which is very understandable so so rosi was was arrested he was on Parole he was in the
00:42:04
system he was Again part of some you know subculture involving child pornography um I again went back to the
00:42:14
District Attorney's Office in 2000 um around that time and uh said you know take this to the Boulder Police
00:42:25
Department this guy's on parole he's in the system why don't you go interview him and see
00:42:31
if what he knows and nothing ever came of it a man in Fort Collins Colorado just um you know 30 to 45 minute drive
00:42:42
or so from Boulder was arrested in the 1998 or was going to be arrested in the 1998 Wonderland bus which is a national
00:42:53
and international ring of child pornography online and he and several other people
00:43:00
who were in it immediately committed suicide and we contined to get information from different totally
00:43:08
different uh sources corroborating that photography may have played a role in this case somehow a a a business
00:43:17
associate in California called us one night and told us that someone had come forward and wanted to tell their story
00:43:24
about what they knew about the Ramsey case he was a photographer but when he was still living in the states his his
00:43:31
home was broken into and his his laptop or his computers were were stolen he then subsequently moved to South America
00:43:38
he was so afraid um and then there was other there were other people oh well I mean the whole John Mark Carr
00:43:46
story is interesting there that that no go ahead that's the other well no as most people know in 2006 the summer John
00:43:55
markar was brought back from Thailand uh to Boulder he had more or less said uh that he was present when
00:44:03
John bed his DNA was tested it didn't match what was left on the body and uh he was released very quickly that all
00:44:14
seemed uh you know pretty road because there was no DNA yeah no DNA and then I didn't buy into the story Joyce didn't
00:44:22
buy into the story that he was a killer but he did have computer ERS again going
00:44:27
back to the the computer world with allegedly I think or possibly uh he was an involvement in child pornography and
00:44:38
then that laptop went missing when the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department moved their offices there was 175,000 pieces
00:44:48
of evidence the only thing that went missing was John Mark car Carr's computer yeah this whole case just has
00:44:56
this smell about it of does does do the authorities really want to solve it and we're we're just posing the question
00:45:07
but that it's the evolution of Alex Hunter from 1997 to going face to face with him and thinking this guy really
00:45:17
wants to know what happened to Let's bury the grand jury report forever but Steve mention about what Wickman said
00:45:27
and then in the summer of 97 I went up and talked to Detective Tom Wickman who was on the Ramsey Force task force and
00:45:35
he was as with all police in the middle of an investigation he wouldn't talk very much but after I laid out some of
00:45:44
the things we're talking about here especially the Simon thing and the pageant angle and
00:45:52
and are people being protected in this situ ation and he said you know I he said I I understand that and he told me
00:46:01
about being on a case a few years ago where they he' gotten too close to some prominent person in Boulder and they
00:46:07
just took him off the case and then he said you know this case is not what the public thinks it is it's this is not
00:46:16
what they think it's about and he wouldn't really open the door much further than that but he told me that
00:46:24
the things that I was presenting to him were very incisive and so you know he was not in the camp that he was
00:46:33
absolutely certain that py did this and and so you know there's just there's an enormous frustration I think at the
00:46:41
heart of of this case and at the you know and people who have looked into it and then also in 2020 um we met in here
00:46:49
in Denver with a retired colorz Springs homicide detective who was working the night you know a few nights after
00:46:59
John B had been killed and one of the volunteers on their hotline for tips had him take a call because this guy wanted
00:47:08
to give some information about the Ramsay case so the detective gets on the line and he told he told him this case
00:47:15
is not what you think it is about it's connected to people in high places and then the guy hung up and they couldn't
00:47:22
trace the call because it was he called from a pay phone so now getting the same
00:47:26
information from totally different directions corroborating what we've been looking into all these years that's
00:47:33
what's kept us on this alternate path that there there must be some a third door to to be opened right so we have
00:47:41
this thing with John Mar Carr they bring him all the way from overseas magically
00:47:46
lose his computer with God knows what was on that thing we also have somebody like Richard Bruce Thomas who commits
00:47:54
suicide and Boulder Police Department never look at his hard drive either and then we have Randy
00:48:01
Simons arrested in 2019 when he had several computers and clearly dealing in child porn and we
00:48:09
went back to the Boulder Police and said are you you know are you interested in following up on this because they that
00:48:17
they say the case is open you know they're still investigating and as far as we know you nothing ever
00:48:26
became of it I mean there's no response and I don't I don't think that happened so speaking of potential leads here are
00:48:35
you able to expand on or tell us who the person is that was referred to as the South California inmate I yeah I'm not
00:48:45
going to use names but um again it was a fascinating situation I'll try and make
00:48:52
it brief but we were contacted by a source um in February of 99 I believe it was that a a
00:49:06
that a contact person in the ramsy case has been arrested in Southern California
00:49:11
for child pornography multiple counts and so Joyce went on the internet and located a recent arrest and we
00:49:21
identified the person and I flew out there and and just decided to meet with him in jail I didn't I didn't want him
00:49:29
to know I was coming and he was very very surprised and figured out quickly what I was looking into and he just said
00:49:39
go talk to my lawyer and so I the lawyers nearby and I did and then the lawyer eventually said
00:49:49
this guy does know have information about the case he does want to talk you know it might help his legal situation
00:49:56
he was facing multiple counts of child pornography and looking at you know serious time it's also not a lot of fun
00:50:05
to be a child molester uh in in jail and he well I was with him when he talked to
00:50:10
his lawyer about and he said this I'm being harassed and I'm I'm afraid and all of this and so the lawyer and I went
00:50:19
back to Alex Hunter and said here's a lead developing in Southern California and he he was again seemed
00:50:27
very interested and then I flew the lawyer in Southern California told me come back
00:50:34
out here and this guy's going to tell you what he knows and then I went out again and uh he he shut up he wouldn't
00:50:42
say anything so again it it it reiterates the Dead Silence at the heart of this case that nobody has told what
00:50:53
they know in my opinion and there are people who know things here about it and they move right up to the edge of it and
00:51:00
then the fear is so great and this may even include Boulder's legal system the fear is so great of opening this door
00:51:08
that you just shut it down so I've made two trips to California I'm sitting there in front of the guy in jail and
00:51:15
his lawyer just went Bonkers and he said you said you'd talk to this guy and he said I don't know anything about that I
00:51:21
mean it was it was a classic scene and so Hunter was very disappointed and I was more than
00:51:29
disappointed and that's just that's just been the theme of the whole thing what is so I mean what's the biggest taboo
00:51:38
that humans have you know killing children and adding in some sexual component and this case is exactly about
00:51:46
that it it has been limited or tried to be shut down from the beginning and and from one angle or another and you know I
00:51:59
know that the ramies you know say that they've cooperated with the police after a certain period of time and all
00:52:07
that give me one piece of information that's been generated from that that has helped the case I to my knowledge it
00:52:16
doesn't exist so it is dead silence on every side that's law enforcement and that's the defense
00:52:26
team and and so you know here we are we have a document that says what a legal body concluded and and
00:52:39
it is again it is astonishing that the media has not picked up on that and understood it
00:52:47
because it blows the other two scenarios to the side I'm sure in your time of investigating this case and after the
00:52:55
book obviously you probably had a ton of people reach out to you to get information have you had anybody from
00:53:02
the grand jury ever reach out to you no there are people we know who have reached out to the grand
00:53:12
jury and it's it's not that's a very dicey thing legally we would not reach out to
00:53:19
the grand jury we don't you know we don't we wouldn't do that cuz that that's pretty secret stuff and but we
00:53:30
have essentially been told that the grand jury did hear some things about these parties uh that went on in Boulder and U
00:53:44
and in and things in that realm that's sexual underground right that's that's the best way to put it involving
00:53:52
children and we have heard that yeah but you can't approach Grand jur no you can't we it's against the law yeah
00:54:00
no I was just curious if any of them have ever reached out to you no it's go ahead we talked about Pam Griffith a
00:54:08
little bit and she says look I don't know why the investigators never took my DNA I'm somebody that was very close
00:54:16
with the Ramsay family I was a seamstress for Jean Ben I had a lot of interaction with them is she someone do
00:54:24
we know if she testified at the Grand Jury hearings um we're not sure about that she may have we don't know but we
00:54:32
don't know but Pam would definitely be an interesting source to talk to about this case the reason why she was an
00:54:40
interesting source is because she was very stet smart whereas some of the other pageant mothers were were more
00:54:45
innocent or but but she had a certain sense of uh you know who to be suspicious of and who not to let her
00:54:54
child alone with more than the other ones that we spoke with that's what made her interesting to us yeah and Pam
00:55:02
Griffin she is one of the people that tells you that this guy Randy Simons who is involved in the pageants and taking
00:55:09
photographs of John B he's calling me in the middle of the night and saying very
00:55:15
strange things she and other ones she was she was she but other ones corroborated it but this weirdo is not
00:55:22
just saying strange things yeah he's not just saying I didn't kill John Benet he's saying I don't have an alibi for
00:55:29
the night that she was killed why would he be so upset his DNA was not found at the scene right I mean his whole
00:55:36
behavior is bizarre and he did say he did say that there was an hour or so the night of the crime that he couldn't
00:55:46
account for whatever that meant but his hysteria in the wake of this just raised
00:55:54
from the oh that's right walking down the street of um that town in eastern Colorado Gena Genoa yeah and he was
00:56:02
walking naked how long after the crime was this about a year this was in the fall of 98 yeah and he was he was
00:56:09
arrested for indecent exposure he was walking naked down the street in this very small town in the Eastern Plains
00:56:15
saying I did not kill johnan I did not kill johnan again nobody accused him of killing J sounds like a lot of guilt
00:56:23
yeah and again don't for for for what yes for knowledge of something who knows we just try to ask the right questions
00:56:32
we're not claiming to know who the Killer is or what exactly happened we just believe in asking the right
00:56:38
questions and letting people decide people are critical thinkers many are and they can come to their own
00:56:44
conclusions as to why this case hasn't been solved and maybe there are some other Arenas that need to be looked into
00:56:50
if I were the Boulder Police and if this is in fact an open case that they are investigating I would have gotten on a
00:56:58
plane and gone to Oregon and sat down with this guy I mean yeah heed some kind of a bargain yeah he might just like the
00:57:07
man in Southern California and said you know this is a chance to help yourself you know what do you know and to my
00:57:17
knowledge that that never happened so there's this very odd pushpull thing that's gone on for many
00:57:26
years you know we want to solve the case we want to know everything but have you taken these
00:57:33
steps to get there what's so strange too is he's not only telling Pam Griffin that I don't have an alibi for that
00:57:39
night but to be clear here he's kind of saying there's an hour or so that I can't even account for what I was doing
00:57:47
almost like I don't know like some kind of blackout situation well I don't yeah he didn't really explain it it again it
00:57:55
was just bizarre hysterical and he did sell pictures of John Manet to uh I think it's called the sigma photo agency
00:58:04
in New York a lot of those pictures are what ended up in the media you know over
00:58:08
and over again in the tabloids everywhere maybe he had some guilt about that I I know the pageant mothers
00:58:14
weren't very happy about that yeah he he you know I think he was upset about all
00:58:20
of that but I don't think it would explain walking down stre naked two years later and telling the police you
00:58:28
didn't kill her right when you've never been a suspect in any serious way right so and Pam Griffin is one of paty
00:58:37
Ramsay's biggest protectors over the years and in fact she goes out of her way to take lots and heaps of criticism
00:58:49
for protecting paty Ramsey right Pam had gone on television in the Years in you know months after the crime and sort of
00:58:57
spoken up to the Ramsay I mean she thought the whole idea that py would kill her daughter was
00:59:03
absurd and uh you know she uh had been with paty uh two days or actually one day after the body was
00:59:16
found on December 27th 1997 and and py was just um you know sharing some things with her that I don't I don't really
00:59:26
think it come out in a lot of other venues uh I it's seemed from what she was saying that the that the ramies were
00:59:36
really frightened in the aftermath of the crime and that uh they you know perhaps they were even
00:59:46
being threatened I mean we don't know but their behavior in the aftermath of crime was was also very unusual usual in
00:59:55
some ways being being being afraid being threatened being possibly extorted that
01:00:00
could explain some unusual behavior on their part again it's speculation but it made sense to us yeah it could also
01:00:07
explain what the grand jury concluded that that they somehow uh exposed the girl
01:00:17
to the circumstances that led to her death and I would insert the word very in capital letter
01:00:25
inadvertently if that's what happened I do not think in any way shape or form and I want to make it totally clear that
01:00:32
I think the Ramsey's intended any harm to come to Jin AG I do not think that's what happened in this case I think that
01:00:41
if you go by the what the grand jury said she ended up in those circumstances and in the aftermath of that uh as Joyce
01:00:50
said if you were being threatened if you were if if that was in the air you know
01:00:55
what do you do in those circumstances the grand jury concluded not Joyce and Steve singular the grand jury
01:01:03
concluded that then that they then participated in the aftermath of the crime and you can go read the count uh
01:01:12
the people who are out there count four and count seven so it it that opens the doorways into more
01:01:21
explanations for how possibly a body and a ransom that got in the same location it might explain some of their behavior
01:01:30
uh in the aftermath of the crime um Pam uh had said that you know they one of the reasons they left uh Boulder was
01:01:42
that they they did not feel safe and and and they went back to to Georgia I believe so I I
01:01:51
think and I again you want to speak very precisely here but I think the ramies were also victims of this crime well and
01:02:00
if you've studied this case you know about the neighbors claims that little John Bay Ramsay came to her and was
01:02:08
telling the story about a secret santa visit after Christmas but now we know that that
01:02:15
story just didn't come from the neighbor it also came from paty right right that's that's what was told to us but
01:02:26
the the neighbor woman Barbara castanic had had an actual conversation that we're aware of there was
01:02:34
documented that John B had told her that on Christmas night she was going to meet
01:02:38
a secret Santa and Barbara tanic said well you're confused because Santa only comes on Christmas Eve and John man
01:02:47
pushed back and said no it's Christmas night and so that opens up a doorway right there uh into
01:02:57
what she was talking about and we've never no it's never been released who was at that Christmas party that they
01:03:06
went to that night there was a Christmas party at the ramies on December 23rd the
01:03:11
other the the night on the 23d yeah yeah those names have never been released the the names of those
01:03:19
people why why hav why doesn't the public have a right to know who was at that party how can that's been squelched
01:03:28
you know and what did something occur at that party that would have set up something for two nights later that's
01:03:35
another question is that what John Benet was referring to that that she was going
01:03:42
somewhere to meet a secret Santa and that opens up the biggest one of the biggest questions of all of the case and
01:03:52
this is speculation and we realized that did she die inside the house is that where the crime occurred
01:04:00
or is it not and Molly Gray who was you know police captain for years in Houston
01:04:08
and a private investigator who worked for both the both of the uh for the BPD and the Ramsey and the ramies said that
01:04:18
there and this is a controversial point because but he thought there would have been and blood in the basement where she
01:04:26
was found uh that may or may not be true uh given the skull fracture that she uh
01:04:35
endured that night uh but it's a question worth asking you can't Source the duct tape
01:04:44
that was on her mouth to the house um you can't Source the cord that was around her wrist to the house I mean
01:04:55
this is what's been reported um it so all of these fundamental questions are in play you know rather
01:05:05
than just well she died in the basement there was an intruder it was the Ramsey I I think I think all of
01:05:14
the evidence that's on the margins if you really look at it it opens up the definite possibility of other scenarios
01:05:24
and so that's what presume guilty was saying in 1999 as far as I know the only book that
01:05:32
was opening a third door and that's what the grand jury report appears to be suggesting in
01:05:43
2013 uh by the conclusions that it Drew and you put all of that together and maybe we have no
01:05:55
idea what happened that night and and we haven't really cracked that door doorway at
01:06:04
all and as after 27 years of studying the crime that's sort of you know what I what I I think can I think what Joyce
01:06:11
and I think and again as she said we're not we're not offering the answers we don't know whose DNA is on the
01:06:20
body but something has to account for the silence around this case and for the non-release of information around this
01:06:31
case and I think those are questions worth asking and again Pam Griffin is so interesting because as you already
01:06:39
pointed out you found her to be very street smart but we also know that she was one of paty's best friends and one
01:06:46
of Pat and one of paty's biggest supporters but one of the most interesting things that she said to you
01:06:54
was quote I've always thought that she meaning py knew who did this but she didn't know that she knew I think it's
01:07:04
exactly what John Ramsey was saying when he said for the fifth time we thought Boulder was a nice clean upstanding
01:07:13
Community I think I think to extrapolate from that and again the speculation you know we were surrounded
01:07:25
we must have been surrounded by some dangerous people and we didn't know that yeah whether socially in their Social
01:07:35
Circle or in business or in the pageant world no one can say for sure right it's
01:07:40
speculation it's speculation but I think that's what he was saying we didn't know
01:07:46
whom our daughter was being exposed to either through the pageant world with the uh performances on stage
01:07:54
or through our associations with you know others in the community and so I you know it's almost
01:08:07
like what Tam is saying is you know she doesn't really she doesn't really want to know it's it's
01:08:15
dangerous and I think I I think they would have been highly protective of their remaining
01:08:23
Young child Burke at that point who was only nine yeah if your if your six-year-old gets murdered viciously
01:08:31
like that you would be very protective of your remaining small child now John Ramsey still had you know John Edward
01:08:38
who was much older but Burke was nine in living with them I I as a mother I would
01:08:45
have been extremely frightened for that other young child at home well that goes
01:08:50
back to what you were saying earlier how the rain ramies themselves were also victims of this crime I think the crime
01:08:57
is larger than it's been portrayed or or you know laid out to be and I think it touches on some of what we're talking
01:09:08
about prominent individuals in a community uh I had contacted the Third District
01:09:17
Attorney in the case in 2009 and proposed bringing in a a uh an individual who touches on all of these
01:09:30
things a victim of of uh child abuse and and other and you know related areas and the district attorney said yes
01:09:40
that's a good idea set that in motion and the next day he said we're not going to do
01:09:46
that and again whether there was Merit to this individual story or not the Dynamics in Play Just were let's shut it
01:09:58
down and and so I just I think that you know this case had the potential to to to possibly just blow a hole in that
01:10:12
community and that may be one of the reasons that the grand jury report was shut down there are 14 other pages in
01:10:20
the grand jury report what's in those 14 pages are individuals named you know what kind of information in there about
01:10:29
the crime has never been released I mean it it would be fascinating to know those
01:10:36
things well you and if there was someone to be um war of or someone that you should be concerned about you know
01:10:44
wouldn't that be of necessity to the public to to know about that individual or individuals you know I mean Steve
01:10:52
you're you're better at this but wasn't there multiple samples of DNA found on J
01:10:58
J's body not not just one there were multiple samples in mixed samples yeah implying possibly that more people were
01:11:06
present when she died than just one person so again it I think it's a a bigger situation than child wets the bed
01:11:18
and mom kills her we want to give a big garage thank you and cheers to Joyce and Steven singular
01:11:42
for being so generous with their time make sure you subscribe on whatever platform you are listening to us on we
01:11:50
thank you so much for joining us here each and every week in the garage Colonel old spicy one do we have any
01:11:58
recommended reading for the beautiful listeners of course we do this week captain we're going to be recommending
01:12:04
Steven singler's book presumed guilty an investigation into the John B Ramsay case the media and the culture of
01:12:15
pornography and Stephen and Joyce pointed out something very fascinating to me here Captain there's multiple
01:12:22
formats for this book the book was originally released in 1999 but there is an updated version on Kindle the
01:12:32
2016 version which I highly recommend and the singulars recommend that you check out that version of their book
01:12:40
presumed guilty all about the John Benet Ramsay case and if you want to learn more about their other works you can go
01:12:47
to Stephens singular. and that is stepen s p cingular.com and until next week be good
01:12:57
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