00:00:00
the Angie's List you know and trust is now Angie and we're so much more than just a list we still connect you with
00:00:06
top local pros and show you ratings and reviews but now we also let you compare upfront prices on hundreds of projects
00:00:14
and book a service instantly we can even handle the rest of your project from start to finish so remember Angie's List
00:00:21
is now Angie and we're here to get your job done right get started at angie.com that's ngi or download the app today
00:00:40
n [Music] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:01:15
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always ladies and gentlemen he is the
00:01:20
Ted lasso of podcasting here is the captain and you got to believe it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks
00:01:27
for listening thanks for telling a friend [Music] once again we are sipping on a juicy IPA
00:01:36
called weird and Gil from single cut just the beer light to guide us and follow we did this IPA is Juicy hoppy
00:01:45
tropical and smooth ABV 6.6% garage grade four out of five bottle caps and here are some of our juicy and smooth
00:01:55
longtime listeners first up we have Veronica Garcia and Sam s Antonio one of my favorite States Texas and a big we
00:02:03
like your JP goes to Tanya in Cincinnati Ohio next up here's a double fisted cheers to Sarah and Lisa from South
00:02:11
Arkansas and a big shout out to Ali and Golden Colorado next to high five to Lyle and Oxford Massachusetts and last
00:02:19
but certainly not least we have a longdistance cheers to Lisa towns in over at Newcastle upon time everyone we
00:02:27
just mentioned both near and far help helped to fill up the garage fridge and we say thank you yeah BW R in beer run
00:02:36
if you'd like to donate to the Beer fun it's pretty easy go to True Crim garage.com and click on the little beer
00:02:42
fun icon right there and while you're there sign up on the mailing list because this week we're going to be
00:02:48
sending out a promo code to everybody so be looking out for that Colonel that's enough of the business all right
00:02:54
everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music]
00:03:12
sadly there is another victim in this case and that victim is the dog Bowie three-year-old Bowie now his cause of
00:03:21
death has not been officially released but after a few months an Atlanta Police Department representative
00:03:31
acknowledged at a press conference that he Bowie was taken out with a knife stabbed
00:03:39
specifically an autopsy on an animal is called a necropsy but whether one was done on Bowie has never been addressed
00:03:46
by APD Bowie's body was sent to gbi not to the Atlanta medical examiner's office
00:03:55
all authorities would say was that potential evidence was gathered from the victims
00:04:03
so notice that they used victims plural in that statement and several news stations confirmed that APD
00:04:12
requested the necropsy in this situation so I I would guess that that was conducted and of course that's going to
00:04:21
be key I think to their investigation because I think it's right for everyone to make the assumption that Bowie would
00:04:30
have vigorously defended Katie if someone was attacking her yeah I I agree and in fact the the other person here
00:04:41
Emma told the Washington Post quote there is no doubt in my mind that Bowie tried to defend her he was about 50 lbs
00:04:47
he had a huge mouth and he was a fast dog I am sure he tried his best end quote and that really without us
00:04:57
circling back into a lot of the specul and questions that we had in part one of this
00:05:04
case but that certainly raises those questions that we discussed in part one who would attack somebody walking a
00:05:11
pitbull in a park at the middle of the night yes this becomes very complicated for me because again if if you have if
00:05:20
this is a personal attack then you have your victim picked out if this is a random
00:05:26
attack I would think that dog would be such a deter current that she wouldn't be a victim by a random attacker but I
00:05:34
think you made some good points when you're you know pseudo profiling the killer that this seems like some kind of
00:05:44
sadus in a way yeah the to me it's the the amount of wounds the staying there at the crime
00:05:53
scene and then in particular carving letters into the body to me is is again I'm I'm no expert I'm no John Douglas
00:06:03
but it's to me that's indicative of what a aist would do one question that we have not seen an answer
00:06:14
to was again something that we were kind of talking about in part one was Bowie's
00:06:21
leash still attached when they're found because there are reported rumors that the killer took
00:06:31
something from the scene now this has never been addressed publicly this has never been stated as fact so I want to
00:06:40
say this is this is rumor and speculation for the most part but there's so much rumor there and you know
00:06:45
how I am captain a lot of times if there's enough smoke I got to believe that there's some fire at the yeah but
00:06:52
you're malleable I mean you you change depending on what case you're looking at but to hear the repeated rumor
00:07:00
of that the killer took that there was something missing from the scene I want to know what that item was if in fact
00:07:07
there was something missing from the scene because again it could tell us a lot about our killer now one piece of
00:07:14
speculation that I did hear in this regard was I believe it was from and I I hope I'm giving credit where credit is
00:07:22
due I believe it was on the unresolved podcast where the the host had had speculated if it
00:07:30
would have been possibly the leash the dog's leash that may have been taken from the scene it would make sense the
00:07:37
other item that I wondered about was Katie's driver's license or Katie's state ID I know she was out walking that
00:07:46
night I I couldn't confirm if she would have a driver's license or not but she is an adult who is employed so she's
00:07:52
going to have at least estate identification card and I know with some of these types that for some reason
00:07:59
seems to be an item of importance to collect from their victim you know we talked about it
00:08:05
in the it with BTK Dennis Raider that was an item that he for some reason could not resist taking from his victim
00:08:13
or from the scene of the murders that was an item that the Florida vampire when we covered that case he couldn't
00:08:20
resist taking the driver's license of his victims well men are visual creatures so it makes sense that would
00:08:27
they would take a object that would have their their photo on it to possibly relive the attack over and over in their
00:08:36
sick twisted minds and I talked about on in part one that there are a couple of questions that I have that i' I I am am
00:08:45
very invested on finding out the answers to and unfortunately because of the state of the case because it's an
00:08:50
unsolved case and they're still looking for the killer I don't know that we're going to get that information until they
00:08:57
make an arrest or until this thing goes to trial but one of those questions was what item was taken from the the scene
00:09:04
and was it in fact a driver's license or state identification card now this is the big question for the public in
00:09:12
general for anybody that's reviewed this case the The $64,000 Question in this case everyone wants to know did Bowie
00:09:21
have someone's DNA on his teeth or in his mouth or even possibly bits of fabric or something found in his mouth
00:09:29
like so if he defended if he had the opportunity right because we can't we can't assume 100% that he had the
00:09:37
opportunity to defend himself or his or Katie but if he did it's conceivable that he may have bit the attacker now
00:09:48
did he break skin did he not break skin who knows but could he have had blood skin uh or pieces of fabric from the the
00:09:57
perpetrator's clothing found on his mouth or or in his mouth or or near him again this also doesn't seem
00:10:05
if it's a stranger on Stranger attack it doesn't seem doesn't seem like a first attack for a murderer like this I mean
00:10:14
like I said they'd have to be pretty they have to be pretty ballsy you know maybe they got a tiny pee pee but they
00:10:20
got big old balls and they and and this would it just seems to me because they haven't released any any
00:10:29
information on moving of the victim or and I know there's evidence of such but evidence of what moving her 10 ft or
00:10:39
moving her 50 yards there's a huge difference there and so this person it's very dangerous because they
00:10:48
they they will do it again and the thrill that you're more likely to get caught or more likely that
00:10:55
somebody seen you and I I have to believe that law enforcement has more eyewitnesses than they're telling us
00:11:03
about because again time of night yes less people out less people walking around but this is a busy area and like
00:11:12
you said this entrance is not that far from an intersection so but it gets complicated because if the attacker was
00:11:19
wearing black that's not going to show up and some of these shitty CCTV footage videos that we always see yeah and if if
00:11:28
theack back and everything went down quicker than some expect or anticipate like you suggested in part one then that
00:11:38
reduces the likelihood of of an eyewitness or what any potential Witnesses may have seen right we don't
00:11:47
know if they were able to collect any DNA it's it's simply we have that statement from law enforcement that
00:11:54
potential evidence potential physical evidence was collected from from the victims which would be suggestive that
00:12:03
they're talking about both Katie and Bowie now for those that don't know this pedmont park is an ins City
00:12:14
187 acre Recreation space used by thousands of atlantans daily for things like running just getting out into to a
00:12:25
beautiful area right getting fresh air picnicking Frisbee and all sorts of other things that people do in and
00:12:32
around Parks it's Atlanta's version of Central Park so it's a very popular place for dog walkers yeah and there is
00:12:42
a designated dog park within the park itself there's a Shake Shack and other food vendors that show up during the
00:12:50
daytime there's yoga classes that can be seen being conducted at the park there's
00:12:55
a large lake at the park as well so after you eat your Shake Shack you get to do the yoga to help it digest yeah
00:13:05
and I had said yesterday that because the I had said in part one that because the bathrooms would have been locked at
00:13:13
this point of the evening when the attack went down that the killer could not have washed up or scrubbed up in the
00:13:21
restroom area but I guess that large lake provides an opportunity for that type of cleanup if you will after the
00:13:30
attack yeah again and that would be a area that if I was walking in a park late at night there's probably not as
00:13:37
many lights around certain parts of that Lake it be pretty easy to dispose of your clothes change into new ones and
00:13:45
it's not that uncommon to see somebody walking around with a a book bag on now some of this is a little bit repetitive
00:13:52
but we're going to go into greater detail with the timeline and locations that are involved D in the timeline of
00:14:00
that night leading into the early morning hours when Katie and Bowie were found so let's review that timeline and
00:14:06
where this all went down as we said already Katie sit out with Bowie for their walk around 10 pm on July
00:14:15
27th we have unfortunately we do not have really any clue where they walked to or from for the next 90 minutes
00:14:26
approximately 90 minutes well just to put this out there I think law enforcement knows but that's because
00:14:33
they're passing a lot of businesses I'm assuming that at least one of these businesses had to catch Katie and Bowie
00:14:41
on surveillance footage but where we pick up their Trail is at that Henry's Midtown Tavern the restaurant where Emma
00:14:48
was working at that night they stopped in to say hi to Emma Emma has stated that she saw Katie and Bowie at 11:35
00:14:56
p.m. Katie told her that she was going home home after their visit then a security camera perfectly captured an
00:15:05
image of Bowie walking on Katie's left side as they crossed the pride rainbow painted
00:15:13
crosswalk on 10th Street in pedmont Avenue in midtown Atlanta right this photo was taken at 1209 a.m. and so we
00:15:25
know Katie and Bowie are alive and well at 12:09 a.m. according to this surveillance camera footage and in the
00:15:35
frame they are alone there's nobody else seen with them in the frame Harry's Midtown Tavern was on 10th Street
00:15:43
Northeast about 2,000 feet this is how close everything is 2,000 feet from the 10th Street in Charles Allen Drive
00:15:51
entrance to the park right where Katie was found but once Katie and Bowie crossed the crosswalk at 12 9 a.m. we
00:16:01
don't know which entrance to the park that they used right we can't see that from that image they could have walked
00:16:08
up to pedmont Avenue to 12th Street Northeast there's an entrance there they could have walked through the park
00:16:15
planning to exit at Charles Allen Drive this is they were closer to that location when they were found if Katie
00:16:22
and Bowie walked into the park at Charles Allen they would have arrived there at about 12:15
00:16:29
if they walked up the 12th Street entrance they would have arrived close to the Charles Allen exit a little while
00:16:35
later probably closer to 12:30 because simply because they had to a longer walk through the park right now Emma said
00:16:45
that it was not uncommon for Katie to walk Bowie in the park but she told 11 alive since I was at work she came by
00:16:53
and I don't know exactly the route she would take I noticed she did walk through the park sometimes she wouldn't
00:17:02
go deep in the park she might have walked from 12th Street entrance to the 10th Street
00:17:08
entrance end quote as we know both were deceased by 1257 when Emma arrived at the Charles
00:17:18
Allen gate so we know that they're alive and well at 12:09 for them to be in that
00:17:25
location just the speed and the time that it would take for persons to walk that distance would put them there at
00:17:33
the earliest at 12:15 at the latest closer to 12:30 they're found deceased at 1257 so we don't have regardless of of
00:17:44
what entrance they went into we don't have a whole lot of time that goes by no and then also by making that window
00:17:53
smaller I I think the big question for the public is well her partner Katie's partner Emma found her and did she have
00:18:04
enough time to commit a crime like this I think that's the big question here and
00:18:09
I don't know cuz I couldn't find anywhere that law enforcement is definitively saying that we don't view
00:18:17
her as a suspect yeah they they wouldn't they wouldn't publicly clear her from my
00:18:23
understanding but they've never referred to her as a suspect again it's it's tough with a case like this because you
00:18:29
don't know how much information they're holding back and what they're releasing to the public and is this the only the
00:18:36
the footage that you said uh of Katie and Bowie walking across the the rainbow crosswalk is this the only image they
00:18:45
have or is there another one we we we don't know I don't think we're privy to that information but I think what we've
00:18:52
narrowed it down to is we're talking about a window of somewhere between 27 minutes to 42 minutes approximately yeah
00:19:03
from the time that they're alive and well to the time that they we know them not to be now to put a little bit of an
00:19:09
expert Spin and put it under a a an experts a person that I consider to be an expert uh I thought you were going to
00:19:17
talk about yourself I was going to say don't don't have me do it because we both know I'm not an expert I'm a
00:19:24
captain Cheryl McCollum who we've met at crime con my understanding she'll be there at this year's crime con anybody
00:19:32
that's familiar with her work would I think wouldn't you wouldn't have to argue too much that she's an expert in
00:19:38
in her field so she wrote a a write up about this case she does a lot of good work out of the city of Atlanta she did
00:19:47
a write up on this case for Crime online and this is what she said there she says
00:19:53
Karen Greer and I walked the scene at the exact time the murder would have occurred and this was her observation
00:20:01
their observations that they made it was dark but the illumination from the street lights provided enough light to
00:20:08
see clearly as you navigate your way through the park any witness that would have come along could have easily seen
00:20:16
this murder Karen Greer said quote you can hear people at a nearby restaurant talking and laughing but no one reported
00:20:25
hearing screams that night so that brings us to the question that we were talking about for for a good deal of our
00:20:34
review of this case yeah do we actually have any Witnesses eyewitnesses or ear Witnesses or or both or video evidence
00:20:42
exactly because Atlanta is one of those cities where security cameras are installed all over there were in fact
00:20:49
reportedly nine of them in the park that night these were under the purview of the Department of Parks and Recreation
00:20:57
shout out to Ron Swanson one of the first things police did was go to pull the footage from these
00:21:04
cameras hoping that the attack on Katie Andor Bowie had been captured on camera or that they could see the asent maybe
00:21:13
they could see where the the perpetrator came from where he went what he was wearing what actually happened but what
00:21:20
do we always end up finding when we follow this breadcrumb Trail Captain we get better pictures of Mars there was no
00:21:27
footage insane get your [ __ ] together people get your [ __ ] together so not one of these
00:21:35
cameras were working at the time the city has made some vague statements to the effect that the cameras were not
00:21:41
operational due to outdated technology so maybe maybe they didn't have the ability for them to be working I I will
00:21:48
give them credit here I gota as as [ __ ] well but as somebody who work security for a long time this is where I
00:21:54
will give them some credit this is where they do show some signs of brains here they they purposely left the cameras in
00:22:02
place as a deterrent right so that that people in the park would think that the cameras were working and beer be
00:22:11
deterred from doing any type of crime or or violence or anything of that nature yeah but hold on that doesn't do our
00:22:19
victim Katie any good or course not it doesn't any good and the problem the problem I have with with just the public
00:22:27
in general is you you take our money and then you don't allocate it the best way
00:22:33
you can and one of the best ways they could to just let's not have fake cameras or cameras that aren't working
00:22:41
or out of date or whatever to be a deterrent let's have them actually work and let's have cameras that actually get
00:22:48
get us good footage and not just this grainy [ __ ] like I said we have better pictures from Mars of course as
00:22:56
far as the park goes we don't even have picture right you know I I'm just simply
00:23:01
saying and I'm with you of course an ideal situation would be to have these cameras have them new cameras had been
00:23:08
installed and up and running and and working and operational I'm just saying as someone that had to manage budgets
00:23:16
and oversee security teams and and uh property I've gone into other properties where they've
00:23:24
wasted money from their budget to pay to have cameras taken down that don't work
00:23:30
anymore why Why Pay 10 cents to do that just leave them up save that money in your budget for something else and nine
00:23:37
times out of 10 if a criminal or wouldbe criminal spots those cameras they will make the assumption that they're running
00:23:46
but based off what you're saying it this killer is not a normal individual no you
00:23:53
don't stab somebody and slash them over 50 some times you don't kill a dog you don't drag the victim you don't do so in
00:24:03
a a public location this person sick this person's Twisted they're not going to give a [ __ ] about a camera well and
00:24:11
most criminals of course are are not violent most criminals the even the violent ones don't even reach this level
00:24:19
of violence but usually a we're talking about deterrence here most criminals will not break into a home if they think
00:24:28
that a dog lives there whether it's a small dog or a big dog or what have you so this person was not deterred by the
00:24:36
dog if they were even aware that the cameras were present working or not they weren't deterred by that they weren't
00:24:44
deterred by it was a public location exactly exactly now where we do get some some information at least that we do
00:24:54
know that some of the cameras outside of the park were oper operational we saw still
00:25:02
photos that the APD released of we saw the still photo of the APD released of Katie and Bowie taken by the camera at
00:25:11
the pride crosswalk at 10th Street in pedmont Avenue right so we know that camera is working that was four
00:25:19
blocks four blocks from where her body was found the APD found other footage that they reviewed as well looking for
00:25:26
any images that could be the Killer are entering or leaving the park or anyone who might have seen something suspicious
00:25:34
after all of course it's going to be theorized by many that the the killer likely would have had to have been
00:25:40
covered in blood drenched in it most likely yeah one image released by the police on August 6th was of a man who
00:25:50
appeared to be a jogger emerging from the park at 12:46 a.m. it was dark out and he was wearing a one of those
00:25:57
headlamp things and dark colored shirt and shorts they police were openly seeking
00:26:04
this guy right we want to figure out who he is and they they were being clear they're saying this man is not a suspect
00:26:12
yeah we just want to see we want to figure out had he seen anything or or possibly even seen the killer yeah the
00:26:19
problem is is when you want when you're wearing one of those idiot headlights you don't want to admit to people that
00:26:25
you're wearing the idiot headlight well let's let's be nice here because this man did come forward and he
00:26:34
according to police was very Cooperative with investigators and police have said
00:26:39
he's not a su suspect and they've gone on as far to say that he did not witness the
00:26:46
crime but he if he whether he saw anything at all that was helpful to their investigation
00:26:53
that has not been released now we should note here captain that the jogger we we
00:27:01
have we have photo evidence of this so this this is not in dispute it's worth noting here that this
00:27:09
jogger ran into the entrance where Katie was found or she's found near this entrance the Charles
00:27:16
Allen and 10th Street entrance and then ran out of the same entrance just after she he's only in there for 46 seconds
00:27:25
he's only inside the park for 46 seconds so and know you said that that that this
00:27:30
may have all gone down faster than the three minutes that some that many have suggested being the least amount of time
00:27:38
but I it I think it's a big jump to get from three minutes to 46 seconds it it's
00:27:43
almost to me like he ran into the park and went n not today not today but also look I I just want to I want to admit
00:27:52
publicly that one I'm an idiot and two I own about five of those headlamps and I wear them often part of
00:28:02
the mole Patrol right the the cartoons where they have the headlamps on even though moles are blind from my
00:28:09
understanding so the headlamp makes no sense but anyway that's a cartoon world so let's get back to the real world we
00:28:15
do know that Katie was found by Emma just 20 minutes later after this man the jogger scene entering and exiting the
00:28:23
park after only being in there for approximately 46 seconds keep in mind had he been the attacker that that short
00:28:31
little window of 46 seconds also includes like running to the spot of the attack and then running from the spot of
00:28:38
the attack so that shrinks the attack even I think I think you are spot on my friend where you you said well you think
00:28:46
well maybe he just ran in and decided for whatever reason to quickly run back out if you look at a map of the park and
00:28:53
you look at the entrance and the exit that he accessed the restrooms are right there and what
00:29:00
did I say earlier we know that the restrooms were locked by this point in the evening he very likely could have
00:29:07
needed to go number one ran in and he checked the door it's locked and just runs right back out well look when I go
00:29:14
to a a local bar I walk through a park and if it's light out it's feels safe it's a very small Park very small
00:29:23
walking path when I'm heading back from the bar if I had a couple too many to drink or I or I stayed there a little
00:29:31
too long you start walking up to that Park and and it feels bad it feels scary it there's no
00:29:40
lights on in the park it's it would save me 5 to 10 minute walk and I go not today Satan I'm going a different way
00:29:51
and I think that's probably what happened but and I hate to keep throwing Emma under the bus here here but if we
00:30:00
have this jogger on surveillance wouldn't we have Emma on surveillance too and that would be able
00:30:08
to cooporate her story a little bit [Music] more you can start your day off right
00:30:25
when you find a professional on Angie to get your cling right first connect with skilled professionals
00:30:31
to get all your home projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you
00:30:36
Angie [Music] that all right we are back talking in the air cheers to the people in the back
00:30:52
and cheers to you Colonel cheers to you Captain well and I I don't want to keep sounding like a douche maack with a side
00:31:01
order of cries but if I'm law enforcement it's just that's your job you have to look at
00:31:10
her Inner Circle because of the time frame and because we have been able to narrow it down a little bit closer look
00:31:19
it's just a fact Emma is finding Katie within what maybe 20 minutes of the attack maybe less Maybe within 10
00:31:28
minutes of the attack so she has to become a suspect and also because of Katie's social life and again you said
00:31:39
you know she's kind of a geeky person which I don't think is a bad thing I think being a nerd being a geek diving
00:31:48
into subjects maybe it's true crime that's cool and that's be that's actually become one of the new cools
00:31:57
right is to be passionate about things and and to dive into them and and let your nerd and geek flag fly but also she
00:32:05
worked at a restaurant she was a bartender I I hate to bring up baby Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer but is
00:32:13
there somebody in her life that was fixated on her these are the questions I'd be asking myself initially if I'm
00:32:21
law enforcement yes of course and I and these are all things that they are going
00:32:25
to ask and investigate internally but not necessarily release to the public their findings or what they
00:32:33
didn't find what they did release to the public is the police released other images from cameras at Park
00:32:43
entrances showing five other people walking into and out of the park and in the crosswalks outside the park asking
00:32:53
those people to come forward now the captain touched on something right before we went to our break there about
00:33:01
do we have Emma on camera going in or or exiting the park the the key here is while we've been we're being asked by
00:33:11
police were you one of these people that were captured on Photo near the park entrances that night could you come
00:33:20
forward or could somebody could you identify someone that you're seeing in these images keep in mind we still don't
00:33:27
have have information from the police where the victim entered the park that night she's found in the park but we
00:33:36
don't have anything we have no information of the police telling us look we have an image of her walking
00:33:41
into the park they just simply have released an image of her walking with Bowie Crossing that crosswalk right now
00:33:50
what I can see and it's you can clearly see that it's Katie you can clearly see that it's Bowie that's not not problem
00:33:56
not a problem it's not the best photo these are never the greatest of photos you know we talked about on I
00:34:03
don't know how many dozens of episodes with Deli had that picture just been better or a lot better we would have
00:34:11
gotten arrest a lot quicker than we did in that case now here what I can tell from what I can decipher from that image
00:34:20
of Katie janess is that Bowie looks very much to me as being on a leash in that photo for for what that's worth he
00:34:32
appears to be leashed to me at that point right now back to these other photographs uh let's give a little
00:34:39
description here so one of the photographs that's released by police was a group of three women crossing the
00:34:47
crosswalk away from pedmont Avenue Park entrance at 11:55 p.m. at 12:25 a.m. we have an image of a man with a cane who
00:35:01
walks out of the park he's looking down possibly he's looking at maybe a cell phone he walks out into pedmont Avenue
00:35:11
on the opposite side of the park he's wearing white pants and a white tank top so I killer yeah I can't vouch for what
00:35:20
the man with the cane was wearing when he was in the park but or or if he even entered the park at all again appears to
00:35:28
be walking outside of the park but we can say that he's not covered in blood at this point in that photograph at
00:35:36
12:43 a person in a hoodie leaves the park through the same pedmont Avenue entrance going off a memory here captain
00:35:45
that person I believe was dressed in dark clothing which makes it a little it's going to make it very in my opinion
00:35:53
difficult to see if there's blood on this person's clothing given the the vantage point of that camera to where
00:36:02
this man was standing after releasing these photos obviously investigators released a statement as well saying
00:36:09
investigators are hoping these in individuals may have seen something that could help forward their investigation
00:36:15
they are asking for assistance identifying or contacting them if anyone was in the area around the time of the
00:36:22
murder or if anyone knows someone in these photos we ask that you contact at ATA Police homicide investigators or
00:36:30
Crime Stoppers and maybe this is a stupid question but when you're talking about the letters that were carved into
00:36:37
the victim it doesn't seem like the way you described it that the letters go in order to spell fat that's correct like
00:36:46
it it it's from the way that it has been described and the way that I interpreted
00:36:52
that description it doesn't lay it out reading left to right FH T it sounds to me like these are all capital letters
00:37:01
because that would be the easiest way to C to make create these letters with what
00:37:07
type of instrument I'm assuming made these carvings but yes it doesn't lay out left to right f a t it's almost like
00:37:17
a t and then the f is in the wrong spot without having a better way of describing it yeah and again we don't
00:37:25
have we don't have a visual of of these letters so we don't know were they was it clearly a t or did
00:37:34
it look like a j and the reason why I bring that up is because if this was a hate crime you look at the a part of a a
00:37:44
g and and a t and they look those parts of those letters look similar you have a
00:37:50
line going down and across on a capital G and so was that what the perpetrator was trying to spell
00:37:59
out and then by in by all indications that would definitely Define this as a hate crime yeah and I think
00:38:08
that so early on in the case from from what I reviewed Captain it appeared that that was largely the
00:38:16
speculation that that many people in Atlanta I'm not talking about us podcasters or people living far away I'm
00:38:24
talking about in the city of Atlanta the speculation early on was that somebody was attempting to or had successfully
00:38:33
carved the letters [ __ ] right and that that would be indicative obviously of a hate crime and
00:38:41
I think I think that the police and maybe the mayor was involved in this decision making I don't know but
00:38:49
I think that the police felt like their hands were tied in this situation and I think they felt forced to release the
00:38:57
information that the no the letters were f a right without having any of us having
00:39:03
seen that I guess one could always argue that well how distinctive were those letters right but it sounds to me based
00:39:13
off of what they have released and keep in mind this is a situation we can all agree on this fact of the case that this
00:39:20
is an investigation that they have chosen to release some information and chosen to withhold some information and
00:39:29
they're being very methodical about what they choose to release and what they choose not to release and I say that
00:39:37
because to me that implies that what they are releasing to them is fact that they wouldn't go out of their way to say
00:39:48
no it wasn't [ __ ] the letters were fat yeah the arrangement of those letters certainly in some debate but I
00:39:58
think that they are convinced and would not say otherwise if they weren't 100% that
00:40:05
the the letters are F A now I will say this on one of the descriptions that I read of those letters it it's described
00:40:15
like that that the the writer for lack of better term may have made a Mis like made an extra Mark when trying to to
00:40:26
create the team e you know you you should have um a single line up and down and then a single vertical oh sorry
00:40:34
single vertical line single horizontal line to create your capital T correct yeah and this description it makes it
00:40:41
sound like there were two vertical lines next to each one another and the one horizontal line at the top
00:40:52
so not a perfect T if you yeah but that also to me this if this person tried to curve the
00:41:00
letter that maybe they were unsuccessful but you you normally would start a g at
00:41:06
at the top and circle back down so I I don't know it's very very tough but I think it's
00:41:14
especially in this community in the lgbtq plus Community you you have to look at this as a possibility the police
00:41:25
obviously closed the park to conduct a thorough investigation or as as well as they could for their
00:41:33
investigation of the grounds of this park and presumably I think yes I'm making some
00:41:41
assumptions and presumptions here but presumably you would believe that the investigators took a strong look at
00:41:48
Katie's phone and a strong look at Emma's phone right and their emails and Communications because what you do have
00:41:57
have here with Emma being look there nobody's openly called her a suspect well I shouldn't say that
00:42:05
there's been plenty of speculation that people do believe that she should be a suspect so I'm sure somewhere somebody
00:42:10
has openly called her a suspect but let's pretend for a moment that she is an actual suspect in this case you have
00:42:18
her statements her statement is I attempted on multiple tries to reach Katie via phone call and text so if you
00:42:29
are able to collect her phone and to do a full forensic check on her phone then you can one thing you could it her
00:42:39
phone's not may not tell you if she is the perpetrator or not but what it will tell you the digital forensics on it is
00:42:48
was she where she said she was at the time right was she was she where she said she was uh at work did she leave
00:42:55
work approximately at the time that she said she left work according to her phone's information was she calling
00:43:02
Katie from their apartment looking for her like she said in her statement was she texting Katie from their apartment
00:43:11
like she said because to me Captain if she were to have perpetrated this these two murders she would be in big trouble
00:43:21
very quickly if that phone didn't match up with her statements and if her phone did did match up with her statements and
00:43:28
she did perpetrate these murders then that means that she had to go to the park kill the two of them go back to the
00:43:37
apartment stage some things with her phone change her clothes clean up and then go to the park and pretend to find
00:43:43
them and call 911 and we've already talked about how short of a window that is and and she wouldn't have knowledge
00:43:50
of where she was going to be picked up on camera and where she wouldn't be picked up on camera and if she had her
00:43:56
phone on her person at the the entirety of that time her phone may indicate to investigators that she did go to the
00:44:04
park go back to the apartment and then went to the park afterwards which would make her look very very guilty yeah I
00:44:12
think I think if they had that information this is why I don't love her being a suspect one the time frame is
00:44:20
very small for her to have committed this murder and two if police had that information and that information was as
00:44:29
I just described I don't think that they would have any trouble naming her as a suspect and or arresting her like I I
00:44:38
think we would be looking at moving this thing toward trial rather than still looking for the killer this is where it
00:44:45
becomes complicated for me because Emma is the one with her story that she brings up find my phone so this would
00:44:54
have to be a very sophisticated level level of criminal to go hey I'm going to bring up this whole find my phone
00:45:03
angle with the victim knowing that then eventually you're going to say well we need to check your phone and we need to
00:45:12
know about your phone's whereabouts but is that a play to go well because I I'm the one that committed this crime I know
00:45:21
where my phone was I was the one that placed it to to make it look in away so by me brining up find my phone to to the
00:45:30
public and to the law enforcement then then they check my phone and go well her phone says that she couldn't have done
00:45:37
this but I know that's again I'm making some big leaps but again if I'm law enforcement and this is not to throw
00:45:46
Emma under the bus because if she's innocent then obviously she's a she's a victim as well and to one to have your
00:45:55
partner murdered so viciously but two to find her and then also you have to add into the equation their beloved dog so
00:46:06
it it becomes she's obviously a victim if she's Innocent but I I I think if we're talking to Emma right now she
00:46:14
would say if she was law enforcement this is an angle that you have to look at and you have
00:46:21
to almost start clearing these people the process of elimination if that makes any sense and then you can start looking
00:46:29
towards the idea that it that it was a stranger un stranger crime well and APD Atlanta Police Department they're a
00:46:37
large outfit they're a seasoned outfit Unfortunately they you know this is not an area that only experiences one or two
00:46:46
murders a year they are seasoned at investigating homicides because it's a big city like the nearest Big City to us
00:46:55
Columbus unfortunately there's like aund some murders a year and so they're used
00:47:00
to investigating homicides they have resources for that we do know that they called in the FBI which to me I think
00:47:09
that that you know there's multiple reasons why you would call in the FBI I kind of feel like the details of the
00:47:16
attack the the wounds the carving of the letters to me I think that's why they called in the feds to provide a
00:47:25
profile of of the wouldbe killer well it might not just be a profile but they could be calling in for assistance and
00:47:32
again a type of crime like this like you said with the profile of how vicious this attack was in the in the
00:47:43
public hemisphere call in all hands on deck we need we need to catch this individual
00:47:49
because this is a very dangerous individual well and if it was a very if let's say that it was not a targeted
00:47:57
attack that means that it's random stranger on Stranger violence at its highest level most violent level and in
00:48:04
a public place that's terrifying when you have a city of millions of people and you if if this is not targeted and
00:48:15
this is random you're right all hands on deck because this could happen very you know
00:48:21
could happen again and very soon yeah or again it could be random but targeted random in the sense it's a stranger on
00:48:30
Stranger but this the Killer is looking for a type of victim and this is a a hate crime on some level which I know
00:48:39
somebody's going to say all crimes are hate crimes yes you have to hate I'm the one that coined that I'm the one that
00:48:45
coined that phrase well we'll just spend the rest of the show padding ourselves on the back
00:48:51
well I'm not saying it's the best phrase ever coined but I mean of course how could you not hate the person in the
00:48:57
moment that you're killing them and then in this case this whoever whoever ended
00:49:03
This Woman's life didn't just kill her attempted to deface and Destroy her that's a whole
00:49:11
another level and that's why I believe that the FBI was brought in now as far as statements go from Emma circling back
00:49:18
to what you're talking about a minute ago with her being a victim here that on her Facebook page she wrote today I lost
00:49:26
the love of my life and my baby boy it was tragic she was the most intelligent kind humble and beautiful person I have
00:49:34
ever known I wanted to spend every second with her he was the sweetest most loyal companion my heart is so very
00:49:41
broken my world will never be the same thank you to everyone who has reached out it is truly appreciated that's the
00:49:49
other thing that a lot of people bring up even if if if for some reason Emma would to have been the perpetrator of
00:49:57
this murder would she have gone so far to kill her pet right that is not a to me that is not a
00:50:09
necessary step in the attack on Katie unless unless one needed to neutralize the dog or you just have a a horribly
00:50:21
evil violent person that just wants to kill everything yeah and I think if that was the case we'd have more people
00:50:26
people in their Inner Circle speaking up and and saying that that Emma should be
00:50:33
looked at and look and in these cases sometimes I feel bad just for braining it up or like when we you have when we
00:50:42
have a missing child or a mi missing mother or father you have to look at everybody in the Inner Circle and
00:50:51
sometimes I feel awful for bringing it up but if I didn't bring it up I'd be a fraud and
00:50:57
well the the reason why you bring it up and you have to bring it up is one because of your you you play the
00:51:03
percentages it's a discussion that needs to be had but in this case it goes beyond that because a lot of people got
00:51:08
suspicious of Emma due to a GoFundMe that was set up so somebody in Emma's family and forgive me I do not have the
00:51:17
name or know the relationship of the person who set up the GoFundMe the information I have States someone in
00:51:23
Emma's family or a family member of Emma set up a GoFundMe to help with Katie's funeral
00:51:31
expenses Emma didn't help matters in this case because it's been openly reported that she used a large portion
00:51:43
of the GoFundMe money to buy herself a condo and she openly admits this she told 11 alive that news Outlet she could
00:51:53
no longer live in the area she was afraid and not just afraid but saddened she could no longer live in the area
00:52:01
where she had shared so many memories with Katie CBS 46 reported that Emma Clark used about 75% of the roughly
00:52:12
$79,000 raised in the Katie Gone Too Soon GoFundMe campaign to pay for her new condo with the rest going towards
00:52:22
Katie's funeral service and also there was a charitable donation made from that money yeah but question for you I mean
00:52:32
if somebody puts out a GoFundMe for the captain to make a the best Bas Jazz record known to man and it raises
00:52:45
$100,000 and it's only going to cost me $10,000 to make the best jazz base record and jazz flute record of all time
00:52:57
then who who's to say what I do with the rest of the money right or or is that person supposed to give that money back
00:53:04
I I don't know how that works well and it's coming that money's funneled in from so many different persons and areas
00:53:11
that it's like how do you how do you determine how to give that money back like so for example with the pchl
00:53:18
project we are always doing fundraising efforts to help and assist law enforcement and families in Ohio Cold
00:53:28
Case homicides and in missing persons cases and identifying Jane and John Doe well some of our fundraising efforts
00:53:38
when we when we attempt to do DNA testing it varies man depending on where we send what lab we used how much work
00:53:46
they H has to go into trying to identify the person or identify the suspect from
00:53:53
the the evidence provided that we never know if it's going to cost 5,000 to let's say
00:54:03
$85,000 well if we do a fundraising effort for a specific case and we raise $88,000 and at the end it only costs us
00:54:11
6,000 to pay for everything that we set out to do we're left over with a surplus
00:54:16
of $2,000 who do we who do we give that money to what we do simply is just apply
00:54:23
it to the next case so we're using it for the same efforts it's just a different victim
00:54:30
now and I'm not trying to absolve Emma of Any of of what probably a lot of people perceive as wrongful doing with
00:54:40
this GoFundMe money but know this anybody that's had to it's unpleasant to pay for and have to purchase life
00:54:48
insurance right it's unpleasant to sit there and discuss and and talk about one's own demise and how do we pay for
00:54:56
things when the colonel passes away and yes this money was set Spit on His Grave
00:55:04
this money was set up the idea was that it was to pay for Katie's funeral expenses well it sounds to me like those
00:55:11
funeral expenses were covered and now there's a surplus of money but anybody that's had to have the unfortunate
00:55:18
conversation with their spouse their loved ones with purchasing life insurance you if you have the ability to
00:55:26
do so you don't just buy life insurance enough to put the konel in the in the in
00:55:32
the ground right and maybe a nice little headstone above his poor little body there no you you you need to have money
00:55:40
for the for the living the people that that are that are left and and unfortunately I have had I shouldn't say
00:55:49
it's fortunate that I have these relationships it's unfortunate what they've had to experience I know people
00:55:56
that have lost a child grown professional people that had their lives completely in order had great jobs
00:56:04
husband wife spouse what have you nice home in a nice neighborhood had everything going for them and by some
00:56:10
freak accident in this particular case that I'm thinking of right now car accident lost a child a teenage child
00:56:18
those persons they were fortunate enough to have life insurance on their child that life insurance wasn't just for
00:56:25
funeral enses for their child these people could not go about their daily lives they couldn't go to work they
00:56:32
couldn't function and and this and this is an accident Emma Emma is living in the neighborhood where the person if if
00:56:40
everything she says is true she's living in the neighborhood of the person that she loved the most that was murdered
00:56:46
viciously forget about functioning how are you not scared out of your mind on top of that the confusing part for me
00:56:53
right now is did that money that she paid for the the condo come from fundraisers or did it come from life
00:57:00
life insurance no this I I'm equating this money to as what somebody would use life insurance for right she this
00:57:08
GoFundMe was set up the information I have set up by somebody other than Emma and 79,000 roughly was raised for the
00:57:18
funeral expenses for Katie and the funeral expenses were covered a charitable donation was made and then
00:57:26
75% of the remaining money or sorry 75% of the total money from my understanding
00:57:32
was used to purchase a condo which moved Emma out of the area right at the same time again I don't want to I I don't
00:57:40
want to sound like I'm have full understanding of her decision making and that I'm 100% backing her and defending
00:57:49
her I just want I'm just presenting but she's not lying about it she's not lying
00:57:54
about it she's open about I'm just presenting some other information that that persons
00:57:59
who go well that's that's an indicator that she murdered Katie no I'm just trying to present some other information
00:58:07
that that is real life stuff that is tough stuff that none of us should have to experience that might have a better
00:58:16
reasoning and understanding of why that money was used in the way well it's yeah
00:58:21
it's a reasonable reasonable explanation of why you wouldn't want to be be in that area and not even just for your
00:58:29
safety but just all those moments are going to and all those locations are going to make you rem remember this
00:58:36
person that you loved and that you missed and you could also make an argument that she didn't know that this
00:58:42
GoFundMe was going to raise any money and so I don't think this is something that somebody could point to as a motive
00:58:52
because she didn't know that this money would be coming to her after the death I'd also like to say that if I made a
00:58:59
jazz flute record I'd call it the jazz flute goes toot toot what what a lot of this led to Captain was
00:59:08
harassment accusatory phone calls messages that she became a suspect in the eyes of speculating public well now
00:59:18
you're make me feel like a salty bag of dicks well but I think you have to ask the questions but no no no it's fair
00:59:25
because until we know we don't know we don't you know it's unsolved for a reason there are people smarter than us
00:59:31
with far more information than us that have looked at this case and they've not been able to solve it so and until we
00:59:37
know we don't know everybody's a suspect it's like one of my one of my favorite conversations I had with a detective was
00:59:44
I started asking him about suspect this suspect that suspect he he said you know
00:59:48
what when I show up to a murder scene there's only two people at this point in the investigation that have been cleared
00:59:55
myself and my mother and so that's the way that this is going to be with this case until we know
01:00:01
everybody's a suspect now we do know that Emma Clark publicly asked the APD to clear her to please release a
01:00:09
statement saying that I am not a suspect because she was receiving threats and I believe some of these were
01:00:17
death threats because people believe that she had killed Katie and that she was taking money and profiting from it
01:00:24
and the police while they never cleared her would not make that public statement
01:00:30
they did go out of their way to say look nobody we've not named a suspect in this
01:00:35
case and it sounds like the only person that they've cleared publicly anyway is the jogger because we we do have the
01:00:44
statement of them on camera saying the jogger we've interviewed him he's cooperate cooperating with police he is
01:00:51
not a suspect but hopefully Katie her family everybody that loved her that came across her and then also came across
01:01:02
little Bowie you know we get some answers sooner than later well and the police are really still hoping that
01:01:08
they're going to get some information from the public unfortunately like as as hot as this case was when it first broke
01:01:17
and it sounded like police had a lot of leads again it was releasing pictures of
01:01:22
person seen coming out of going into or near the Park that night and then chasing down those leads the crazy thing
01:01:30
though is go back to the statements of of our fellow podcasters and um who wrote for Crime online saying that we
01:01:42
walk the park at that time of night we could hear people at restaurants nearby we could hear cars passing and they
01:01:49
point out nobody reports having heard any screams that night I just feel like this is a situation where
01:01:56
Katie was ambushed and before she could even Scream the attack is is too far in for her to to be vocal and loud enough
01:02:06
for anybody nearby to hear anything right and there's a level of sophistication to that or luck I mean to
01:02:15
to me I look I know we we've danced around the idea did the did did this was this P this person's this perpetrator if
01:02:24
it wasn't someone known to Katie was it their first attack you know is this a budding serial killer I I believe that
01:02:34
that it might be their per if it were a budding serial killer I believe that it might be their first attack first kill
01:02:43
because of some of the things that I'm seeing at the scene and some of the way that the the details are described I
01:02:49
would be very curious if the FBI had the same assess to me the carving of of those letters if it's not somebody that
01:02:59
knows our victim it's something that the killer could not prevent themselves from
01:03:05
doing staying at that crime scene only heightens your risk of getting caught and the longer you stay there it goes up
01:03:14
it goes up it goes up it goes up every second every minute that you're there for some reason I can't shake it out of
01:03:21
my head that this was carving those letters was not only impulsive to not only shows and suggests the
01:03:29
impulsiveness of the killer which then could be an indicator of the Killer's age but on top of
01:03:38
that the they they couldn't stop thems they had to do that whatever for whatever reason they had to do that
01:03:44
before leaving the scene it's almost like a like a pyromaniac right pyros Technic most of the time get caught
01:03:52
because they do not possess the ability to leave the scene they are so sick and Disturbed that they they set the fire
01:03:59
and they have to stand there until the whole damn thing Burns to the ground but see that's where my argument would be if
01:04:07
this is a serial killer this is not the first attack because with a number of wounds to the victim the the carving of
01:04:17
the letters like you said broad daylight you you go is this some form of evidence
01:04:24
of escalation obviously we don't know what attacks they had before but I would think this is somebody that got
01:04:32
comfortable with being in an uncomfortable situation and being able to take their time if you view that it's
01:04:40
going to take a lot of time this is very complex and and a very sad case not you
01:04:47
know not just for the the families but the whole freaking Community you know what I mean the that whole area the
01:04:55
there's probably not a day when somebody's walking to their car or walking through the park or or how many
01:05:02
people stopped going to the park or stop jogging through the park because they couldn't get KD out of their mind and
01:05:08
then eventually people move on and and I'm no expert but if if I were profiling this case the offender here I
01:05:20
would be I would be telling the local authorities that I would be looking for somebody not older than 21 22 years of
01:05:28
age at the time of the murder likely living at his mom's or parents' house at the time which would be fairly close to
01:05:36
the park in proximity to the park if by chance he's not living with Mom well then his residence is still fairly close
01:05:43
to the park if it is somebody younger than that age of 2122 at the time of the murder you might be able to stumble upon
01:05:51
your killer by finding persons that have been picked up in the park or near the park for break curfew shortly before
01:05:58
after the murder now shortly after the murder I would expect if if police found the Killer and it was somebody that did
01:06:07
not know the victim on a personal level I would think that if they found that killer early on I would expect the
01:06:15
police to find some kind of drawings that this person made for memory of both the murder scene and both of the victims
01:06:23
the of Katie and of Bowie the do the thing about this case that that will continue to resonate is the viciousness
01:06:31
of this murder and how heinous of a crime this was in such a public place was the
01:06:36
riskiness a very big part of the thrill or part of the enjoyment for the Killer and if so that also points to someone
01:06:45
who's deranged a psychopath or someone consumed with hatred and as for what he did to Katie what did it all mean to him
01:06:54
why fat why fat why the cuts to her throat so deep she was nearly decapitated and why disbaling why the X
01:07:02
on her face we don't know and it seems like only a psychopath might know whether the
01:07:09
answer whatever the answer is this guy succeeded in accomplishing his goal he came equipped he waited patiently or
01:07:17
followed his prey he was not deterred by a large dog he moved swiftly and apparently silently he struck before his
01:07:24
victims even knew what hit them he carried out his mission his fantasy his Thrill Kill and then he slipped out of
01:07:31
the park undetected covered in blood in a major city with people out and about it was the work this is truly the work
01:07:40
of someone very evil who still lives among us we should point out if anybody wants to go and listen to some of
01:07:48
Katie's music Katie's music is still available for all to hear at soundcloud.com
01:07:56
ky- [Music] Janice the episode's over and you're thinking to yourself but I need more
01:08:10
True Crime garage well you can sign up at patreon or apple podcast subscriptions for bonus content Colonel
01:08:21
do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners this week we are happy to be
01:08:26
recommending FBI diary profiles of Evil by retired agent Peter Kismet Jr with this book everyone can Venture
01:08:36
into a world where few have gone the realm of the FBI's most selective unit the profilers the author of this fine
01:08:45
work of True Crime was a member of the first group of FBI special agents who were handpicked for this groundbreaking
01:08:53
revolutionary and controversial training follow his path as an agent working cases in the field walk and think along
01:09:01
with him as he uses the training to assist law enforcement with violent murders and other crimes this is one of
01:09:09
my favorite true crime books it is FBI diary profiles of Evil by retired agent Peter Kismet Jr you can find that great
01:09:18
title and many more wonderful recommendations on our recommended page at true Crim garage.com
01:09:25
and make sure you sign up on the mailing list until next week be good be kind and
01:09:30
don't litter [Music] [Applause] [Music] you can start your day off right when you find a professional on Angie to get
01:10:13
your plumbing right first connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well
01:10:20
visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that