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[Music] % welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:45
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a guy that woke up this morning feeling dangerous he is the
00:01:52
captain I'm just like every man I wake up every day and put my skirt on one leg at a time it's good to be seen and it's
00:01:58
good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend today we are drinking Clockwork
00:02:11
Tangerine by Brew doog garage grade 4 and A2 bottle caps out of five Clockwork Tangerine is a sessions IPA infused with
00:02:20
just the right amount of Tangerine citrusy goodness and from brewog and as those of you that follow me on untap
00:02:27
know I was lucky enough to visit brewog just a few weeks ago if you're ever in central Ohio make a trip over there okay
00:02:34
on to the shout outs we go first up a shout out to Andrea in Grand Blanc Michigan and a big shout out to John
00:02:41
from Cincinnati John is a big fan of Ryan gist as are we John next we give cheers to lyi in Puerto Rico and a big
00:02:49
we like a jib to the sisters Grim in Marian Iowa next we have Theo from Dorchester Massachusetts and last but
00:02:58
not least we have Monica in Georgetown Indiana so thanks to everybody for going to our website true Crim garage.com and
00:03:05
helping us out with a little bit of beer money for this week's shows make sure you follow us on social media Instagram
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Twitter Facebook Snapchat all that stuff @ True Crime garage and that's enough of
00:03:16
the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:03:23
[Music] crime [Music] after Wayne Gravette was murdered his wife Diane sold the farm that they had
00:03:46
purchased and moved to earlier that year she used $50,000 of the money to establish a
00:03:53
reward for information on Wayne's murder and set up a website to help gather information while tips did come in
00:04:01
detective Paul Johnson recently stated that today in 2018 while they have some Persons of Interest there are no
00:04:09
specific suspects and he will not name these Persons of Interest so essentially the case has stalled and they have tried
00:04:19
modern testing Technologies and these have failed to provide any more clues frankly no one knows if this was
00:04:26
something in Wayne's private life or whether it was Rel Rel ated to his business Diane Gravette maintains that
00:04:33
her husband was a quiet hardworking man devoted to his family he wasn't involved
00:04:39
in anything illegal adding they had a good family home she said I know he didn't hurt anybody we didn't rip
00:04:48
anybody off we didn't owe anybody any money sadly Diane may not have known her husband as well as she thought their
00:04:57
kids Danielle and Justin have realized that while they have fond memories of Wayne as a great family man and Dad
00:05:04
outside the home it was quite a different story it seems that quite a few people might have wanted to murder
00:05:11
Wayne Gravette all right yesterday we mentioned Affairs so let's dive in shall we over the course of the investigation
00:05:20
it became apparent that Wayne had multiple extramarital Affairs we know he was often away for work sometimes far
00:05:27
from home but Wayne also had affairs close to home and all of this was news to Diane we don't know the names and
00:05:36
identities of most of these women for obvious reasons but one friend of Diane's later told her that at one point
00:05:43
Wayne he snuck in a bed with her and pretended to be her husband and when she realized that it was not her husband she
00:05:51
kicked Wayne out of the bed but others apparently didn't kick him out and one was Lisa Irvin yeah Wayne had an affair
00:06:01
with her that lasted over 5 years starting back when they both worked at surge when this information emerged it
00:06:08
was especially hurtful to Diane who considered Lisa her best friend Diane says Lisa was at the house all the time
00:06:17
working with her and Wayne and it annoyed Diane that Wayne flirted with Lisa openly but she didn't think it was
00:06:25
anything more than that now after Wayne's death when Diane confronted Lisa Lisa said Wayne initiated the
00:06:33
relationship and she tried to break it off multiple times but quote he wouldn't let her end quote she finally left DNL
00:06:42
and Wayne in either 1993 or 1994 it's a little a little murky Lisa's relationship with other men were ruined
00:06:51
because of her affair with Wayne at the end of the affair Lisa was dating a guy named Rocky and police thought that
00:06:58
Rocky may have been the jealous type and Lisa and Rocky both gave hairs for DNA analysis and there was a man named Dean
00:07:08
whom Lisa was seeing during her affair with Wayne Wayne forced Lisa to dump this guy named Dean saying he would fire
00:07:16
her if she didn't mhm it's possible either of these men could be the culprit but we should mention one thing here uh
00:07:25
apparently according to Lisa Rocky was cheating on her as well you know so he's been labeled this jealous type but he
00:07:34
also was running around behind her back right Lisa stayed in close touch with the gretes after leaving the company and
00:07:43
after ending the affair even visiting the farm at least on one occasion she says she was intensely grilled by the
00:07:51
police after Wayne was killed she admits that she was terrified mainly because her name
00:07:58
appeared in the letter even if it was misspelled police seem not to have pursued the Lisa angle too
00:08:05
much in my opinion because in the documentary that was later made by the the CBC this unearth that Lisa's old
00:08:14
computer uh she still had this in her possession that police had not gone through this old computer it was like a
00:08:20
old work computer yes it contained business and financial records of Wayne's uh eventually after it was
00:08:27
uncovered during the of making this documentary it was then given to the police the police have stated publicly
00:08:36
that they feel that they have thoroughly and completely vetted Wayne's business Affairs but still lacked complete
00:08:41
information about the private side of his life so if he was with many other women on the side perhaps a jealous
00:08:50
husband had had enough aside from cheating is it possible Wayne was harboring another secret both Diane and
00:08:58
Justin told inves ators Wayne was acting odd in the months prior to his death mhm
00:09:04
according to to Diane Wayne became increasingly agitated in the months before acting paranoid refusing to
00:09:11
answer the phone and ignoring jobs that came up and ignoring angry customers well you also wonder too if he's having
00:09:18
all these Affairs was there ever a baby through one of these Affairs that's interesting there could have been a baby
00:09:26
the the other thing too is we talked yesterday that there was rumor or even people on the inside that seemed to
00:09:33
believe that Wayne was doing what we called Bad Business yes and it seems to me like he's dodging somebody and it it
00:09:43
feels to me like the most likely person to dodge while at work while not wanting
00:09:48
to answer the phone would be these angry customers angry clients that he was doing bad business with Diane says that
00:09:56
the uh close to the time of the murder this is pretty weird here that she got a phone call at the house at their home
00:10:04
from Bell Telephone Canada MH the caller asked Diane what their business was and
00:10:10
she told the caller about the beverage packaging equipment company MH now Wayne yelled at her to get off the phone and
00:10:17
warned her not to talk about their business to strangers this is weird because it
00:10:23
doesn't seem likely to me that the phone company would be calling or making this
00:10:28
kind of call um it could have just really been somebody fishing for information yeah
00:10:34
was Wayne actually living there working there all that jazz and in fact after Wayne's death Diane did call the company
00:10:41
back and they did deny ever having called the house then we have Justin Wayne's son
00:10:48
said that they received a call just weeks before Wayne was killed from someone wanting their address their new
00:10:55
address claiming they would receive free t-shirts in the mail mhm Justin says he
00:11:01
didn't fall for it and he hung up the phone never giving them the address one time a truck pulled into the
00:11:08
driveway and Wayne ran outside with a pool queue and chased the truck and it drove away so what I'm getting at here
00:11:17
Captain is all of these stories yeah what are you hitting at well all of these stories obviously seem to indicate
00:11:24
that Wayne was Wayne could have been worried about something somebody could have been
00:11:29
looking for Wayne yeah right calling the house a truck showing up and the the odd
00:11:35
thing too is we have the situation with the truck and Wayne chasing it off of the property that's my favorite one I
00:11:41
mean that that's a sign that you're you're paranoid about something mhm so was this
00:11:50
what I have a bit of confusion with though I would like to know regarding the telephone company I'd like to know
00:11:59
more about when that actually occurred when that phone call occurred because the problem that I'm having when I'm
00:12:05
going through Wayne in Diane's life is that it it sounds to me and it looks to me like they were trying to transition
00:12:14
away from being this uh repair company this equipment repair company/ Bottling Company uh it looked to me like they
00:12:23
were trying to move into the the water business into the bottled water business and I understand that that's you know
00:12:28
they're similar yeah this part of the story seems a little murky for me because it it seems on one hand that
00:12:36
this is like their last option we move out to this Farm it has a spring on it and this is this is going to save us
00:12:46
because the packaging and and all that stuff that business is not going so well that's going under that that's what it
00:12:54
seems to me but then it seems like maybe Wayne was still still trying to keep one
00:12:59
foot in that business and if he was scamming people maybe he was going to keep trying to scam people thinking that
00:13:07
he was safe by hiding out on this Farm yeah because the way that all three of these these stories that we just
00:13:14
reviewed all three you know without knowing any dates or any more specifics and these were stories that are relayed
00:13:21
from Diane and from Justin but without it more specifics we are led to believe that these are all incidents that
00:13:28
occurred once they move to this Farm once they move to this 104 Acre Farm they have the spring they're going to
00:13:35
bottle some water they're going to create their own bottled water company right and it it seems strange to me that
00:13:43
somebody's calling to to inquire about what their business is it almost felt to me like when when they moved that they
00:13:50
were leaving DNL behind that they were leaving their old business their old company behind they were going to start
00:13:56
this whole new thing like you said this is last call this is the last thing that
00:14:00
might be able to save us the other thing too 1996 when you think about it m if you started up a a bottled water company
00:14:08
in 96 or I mean even today this could be not just the thing to save you it could
00:14:14
be a lottery ticket yes you know it could turn into a big business yeah a guy I worked for for a while had a
00:14:21
spring on some property and it was at any point they could pull the trigger and this was a million doll idea mhm
00:14:31
well let's talk about some of his work relationships that we do know more specifics about okay starting with the
00:14:39
surge company that we've already mentioned the company that Wayne ultimately left uh this would be because
00:14:45
there was a dispute with the people that he worked with there specifically the owner of the company which was Ed gelic
00:14:52
Senior well technically it was his partner I believe yeah I I if feels like that but
00:15:00
to be 100% clear Ed was the was the sole owner of this company agreed he was the
00:15:06
head hono he was the boss he was the guy that at the end of the day he called the
00:15:10
shots um he there may have been some kind of partner relationship it sounds like to me that Wayne was uh paid a
00:15:19
little differently than most of us he wasn't technically an hourly guy wasn't technically a salary guy I believe he
00:15:25
had some ownership in the in the company well I think they paid him 10% of the uh
00:15:30
profits for the year so his his his work was based off of that pay structure right and their growth of the company
00:15:37
thus making him feel like some sort of owner or at least that he is has ownership of 10% of the company which I
00:15:44
know that when they had their falling out that there was money owed to Wayne yeah which could have been motive well
00:15:52
no but this money was paid so um it really could only be motive if if you didn't want to pay the money right okay
00:16:02
so this money was paid to him and as you were stating he he had some ownership I
00:16:06
didn't have a clear understanding of what that money paid was for but now that you said he had some ownership well
00:16:13
it's likely that that was part of their stipulation part of their their rules you know their contract that if at any
00:16:20
time I decide Wayne you have to leave the company well then Ed and surge in The Surge company has to pay you your
00:16:27
10% right you know not just for that year but pay you your 10% for the company so anyway let's just refer to Ed
00:16:34
Sor as Ed is that going to be too confusing because there's an ed Jor or little Ed that we'll talk about uh as we
00:16:41
go let's call him old man Ed Ed Senior Ed Senior okay Ed Senior and he's a he's a wacka
00:16:49
do but yeah um yeah that's I mean I don't know how else to say it I mean he is he is is on another planet well and I
00:17:00
hate here's here's the thing though I I kind of think Ed Jr or little Ed is a wackadoo as well um yeah the wackadoos
00:17:09
don't fall too far from the tree Wackadoo tree I hate to I hate to come at our victim here but for somebody that
00:17:17
worked so long with both of these individuals and was part business partners with one and had such a long
00:17:24
relationship with one I almost wonder was Wayne a wackadoo as well he was chasing after trucks with a pole stick
00:17:32
his property and he was moving to a property that had a spring to have a to bottled to have a bottle water C I think
00:17:43
are some wacka do ideas man I don't know I don't know what planet you're living on let's go with this because this
00:17:48
sounds more polite can we agree that Wayne I don't give a [ __ ] about being polite well he's I mean he was murdered
00:17:55
and his family members probably will listen to this when we title it Wayne Gravette I do give a [ __ ] about being
00:18:01
poite towards him yes but but yes I mean but also this is a situation where not only do you have a business owner but
00:18:09
you have a very close relationship and Ed Senior was kind of a mentor SL Father Figure type to Wayne so they had a very
00:18:19
close Bond MH and I just want to clean this up before we move on can we agree rather than Wayne being a wackadoo he
00:18:25
was sounds like the the type of man that marched to the beat of his own drum yeah
00:18:31
that sounds yeah that sounds more accurate to me yeah and I think his family would agree to the with that as
00:18:37
well and you're right about this Mentor maybe even fatherson type relationship between Ed Senor and Wayne Gravette
00:18:45
because Wayne was like 18 he's working at the seven up Bottling Company this is when he meets Ed Senior and at some
00:18:53
point Ed moves on to um creating his own business this surge company and eventually he will bring Wayne on with
00:19:02
him because Wayne was a hardworking dude he knew his stuff right and regardless to the beat of the drum that he marched
00:19:09
to everybody that knew a hardworking drum though said he was a hardworking dude and he was extremely intelligent
00:19:16
when it came to this industry when it came to working on these things being a part of the bottling industry so they
00:19:24
were very tight they played poker together they were drinking buddies they were you know B
00:19:29
uh working relationship all of that up until 1993 this was when the relationship just
00:19:36
went kaput and actually you can there there are several well I don't know if several there's at least one interview
00:19:44
but there's versions of this interview out there with Ed Senior and you can hear the way that he refers to their
00:19:51
working relationship he refers to it as a marriage pretty much because it was that lengthy and that close of a
00:19:58
relationship to the point where he says this is when we got our divorce was in 1993 this is when we parted ways well
00:20:05
that's what it is I mean we deal with that all the time you know with the podcast getting bigger and bigger I mean
00:20:12
feels like we're married sometimes at some point they brought on Diane Wayne's wife as an employee of the
00:20:21
company Ed demanded that Wayne fire her this seems to be what led them down the road of them partying ways uh whether it
00:20:30
be Wayne got difficult to work with I can tell you this the vibe I get from the interview with Ed Senior that I've
00:20:37
seen several versions of listen to some versions of he seems a little difficult to get along with even on a good day
00:20:46
yeah he's he's laughing the whole time in the interview which comes across as a little strange because he is talking to
00:20:52
the victim's family but they're also you you could argue that they're family friends in a sense so the way
00:21:02
he's going to talk to them is going to be different and maybe he's trying to ease up some of the tension because
00:21:08
there are they're talking about the murder of their father um but he does laugh sometimes where it's just like
00:21:15
this is a little strange well and the whole purpose of bringing up Ed Senior and then Ed Jr is a couple things
00:21:23
because when we when we dive into this investigation the investigators have outrightly stated that that it's either
00:21:31
business or personal that led to this bomb being mailed to his home but it seems like law enforcement is an
00:21:38
agreement with us where we find that this is probably done by a male more likely done by a male so if it's going
00:21:45
to be personal relationships it's going to be coming from a jealous husband or boyfriend and that but if it comes from
00:21:52
the business angle that it's still coming from a male they've cited that it could be from business with the spring
00:21:59
water you know the upstart that they were doing could be with DNL or it could be with the surge company and I think
00:22:07
when you break down the Simplicity of the thought that your suspect your perpetrator May lie within one of those
00:22:14
businesses is this if it were someone in connection to the spring water it would
00:22:19
to me either be one of two things uh future competitor you know somebody that believed that that he was going to steal
00:22:26
some business from them or or maybe a a a conservationist right but yeah and if you look at the letter though if you
00:22:35
think that the letter means anything I would argue that it seems like there's nothing to do with a spring and also
00:22:42
just because you have a spring you are a very far like I said I worked for a guy
00:22:49
that had a spring he would always talk about how if they wanted to pull the trigger they would mhm and well when you
00:22:55
work for the guy and your my job was to help him make money at all his companies
00:23:01
M so don't you think I said well let's pull the trigger right and you know what his reply was you know how much work
00:23:09
that's going to take so it became it went from well I do know how much work it's going to take and I can tell you
00:23:13
why because if you stop what you're doing right now you go to True Crim garage.com you can order a case of
00:23:19
purified True Crime garage spring water and guess what not only did the captain package it and ship it I put it in the
00:23:27
bottles myself I got I got four hoses that come off the side of my home don't trust that water don't trust that water
00:23:34
it's it'll get you high as a kite that water is a crime let me tell you no but so it went from well we just pull the
00:23:42
trigger and we're multi-millionaires too there is a lot of red tape and so I even
00:23:48
think if you go from like this activist standpoint where you're going to take this uh spring water again if you think
00:23:56
the letter has any relevance than where where in the letter would that you know Point toward towards uh
00:24:07
some activist trying to stop him from bottling this water again it seems I I think you're really hitting on something
00:24:13
here because not only did I do I believe that the letter was more of a way to increase the likelihood of Wayne
00:24:21
actually flipping that switch and exploding the the flashlight right but the reference of Le and the reference of
00:24:29
he doesn't just say the the letter writer doesn't just say Lisa and Joe it says Lisa and Joe your delivery man
00:24:36
right references his name and attaches it to a title or to a job well here's a question that I have though we know that
00:24:43
Lisa came from Serge right do we know if Joe came from Serge because one of the interesting things with Ed
00:24:51
Senior you know Wayne's business partner let's say mhm is in his state statements
00:24:58
when he's talking to his when he's talking to Wayne's daughter and Wayne's son he says I live on this property that
00:25:07
I have to sometimes shoot deer M but I can't even shoot them right so I have to Brin somebody else
00:25:15
in um and that makes me wonder and that doesn't make me wonder did he make the bomb uh I think he would hire possibly
00:25:26
somebody to do this and it's just such a weird statement and and if you can find that online I just
00:25:33
think that's something um I think that's very telling regarding Joe I'm glad that you asked me that
00:25:41
because all along the way here I felt like not only did Lisa come from The Surge company and go to DNL but also Joe
00:25:49
did as well and I believe that I read that somewhere but when I went to backtrack when I went to look back and
00:25:56
try to confirm that I had read that somewhere I couldn't find it again when you try to pull a job Rule and back it
00:26:02
up that's right and you know we review so much material for this stuff sometimes it's hard to remember or put a
00:26:10
put a place on where you believe that you've read something my guess is yes that this is more of a Michael Scott
00:26:16
type situation where he's working for Dunder Mifflin and I think he quits or he gets fired or whatever he goes off
00:26:22
and starts up the Michael Scott paper company and he's trying to pull some of the employees and take them from Dunder
00:26:30
mithin to come work for him and his new company and he's trying to steal and siphon off some of their clients as well
00:26:37
right so that would be the motive for Ed Senior is that hey we're not working together anymore we don't have this
00:26:44
close-knit relationship anymore you're trying to undercut me you're trying to steal my business um and you made things
00:26:52
difficult on me anyways by leaving so I want you dead well and you but I think you're also trying to point out that the
00:27:00
letter mentions Joe and mentions a title job title for Joe and would Ed Senior have known Joe would would Joe have
00:27:09
worked for him at any point right my guess is is just that yes and that leads us back to one of the biggest questions
00:27:18
in this whole case does the letter mean something and if you believe that the the letter does mean something then
00:27:25
which you have to because Lisa and Joe are not just named by chance they didn't just pull those two names out of thin
00:27:33
air and it happened to do something with Wayne's life no this was all something from before from before the spring the
00:27:42
bottled you know water business so therefore when you talk about if this is work rated is it related to Spring Water
00:27:50
to DNL to The Surge company I think you can rule out the bottled water I believe
00:27:56
so too and I think you have to stick more with packaging if this is business related it's coming from DNL or The
00:28:03
Surge company right but DNL is basically kind of offshoot of the surge stuff so but again that would be the motive for
00:28:11
Ed Senior mhm so then what about Ed Jr what's his motive um I to be honest with you I don't know that I understand 100%
00:28:21
what either of their motives would be but a possibility here is once Wayne left the surge company mhm we have Ed Jr
00:28:32
who had been in and out of the surge company for years he's brought back to the surge company and he basically takes
00:28:38
over Wayne's position working for his father Ed Senior right and so Ed Senior actually he brings up this idea that
00:28:47
possibly they had multiple falling outs he didn't like his son at all his son didn't like him which is hilarious cuz
00:28:54
you named your son after yourself and then that's funny when that works out that way well he liked him the day he
00:28:59
named him right and then uh he grew up to be an [ __ ] just like you and so at some point they have these big falling
00:29:07
outs and so Ed Senior thinks that maybe it was I will get rid of Wayne this will
00:29:15
look bad towards my father because they had a falling out of their business possibly my father gets arrested for
00:29:22
this and now Wayne's gone my father is in jail and I get to take over the business myself and that's that's
00:29:31
something that is suggested during this very strange interview as he's laughing multiple times lot more to get to after
00:29:38
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[Music] today all right cheers MIM I'm enjoying some true crime garage bottled water straight from the hose it's
00:32:07
fantastic in the course of their investigation into Wayne's death the CBC and Wayne's family brought to light a
00:32:15
murder that could be related and this is Paul henin he was murdered on May 16 2002 under mysterious circumstances Paul
00:32:25
knew Wayne he worked in the same packaging industry and even bought parts from Wayne and used to play a regular
00:32:33
poker game with Wayne and others in that industry Paul was at a pub the evening that he was murdered and was dropped off
00:32:41
by a taxi just after midnight at his apartment although some Reports say it was at his company
00:32:48
Warehouse regardless he was stabbed 14 times and left for dead police found his green 1997 Chevy pickup nearby a few
00:32:58
days later and found a palm print and several DNA profiles in it but the case has never been solved apparently at the
00:33:06
time the police never considered whether the two murders were connected they said
00:33:10
that a large amount of money went missing around the time of Paul's murder they believe that Paul knew the people
00:33:16
that killed him or the person that killed him and it was personal and not connected to Wayne all we know is that
00:33:23
Paul and Wayne knew each other worked in the same industry and were B both murdered in unsolved cases about six
00:33:31
years apart yeah but way different kinds of murders one is from a distance not being able to
00:33:40
see ones up close stabbing this is somebody that does not mind getting their hands dirty and quote unquote a
00:33:49
large amount of money missing you know we don't know what that money was what it was tied to but uh or how much it was
00:33:56
but that is always listed when anytime we look up or look into Paul hinton's murder yeah the the difficult thing here
00:34:04
for me though is the records of Wayne and how he kept his records for his business and and having
00:34:12
it be a small business MH we're never going to know if there was a chunk of money missing or money that was supposed
00:34:23
to be paid back to somebody we we might just not know because of how the books were kept well and from my understanding
00:34:30
that is that Wayne operated his business when he was out to repair something install something sell something to
00:34:36
somebody he operated under a 50410 payment method and what that meant was that the client or customer would
00:34:46
pay 50% upfront when they agreed to have the work done 40% upon the completion of
00:34:53
the work or the delivery and then 10% would later be build 30 days out mhm the problem with this is not so much the
00:35:02
billing method but we have individuals including his family and co-workers and people that worked for him that said
00:35:09
that it would not be terribly unusual for Wayne to do something off the books right and this is where the thought
00:35:17
comes in that maybe Wayne conducted quote unquote bad business with people meaning he could sell somebody something
00:35:25
sell some equipment or prep something or do some work for somebody and say you know what just pay me under the table
00:35:31
and the thought of the bad business is maybe he was charging people for things up front and because it was on the DL he
00:35:37
would never deliver he would never come through with what they agreed upon and he would just pocket the money and
00:35:44
Paul's hit could have possibly been a hit and that kind of G leads us into this idea of a man came forward that
00:35:54
worked in the industry and he said Hey look $5,000 $10,000 that's no big deal in our
00:36:01
industry mhm but it could get you killed yeah some people will kill somebody for
00:36:08
five to $110,000 well and the rumor that he States is that he heard that the bombing was a hired job and they hired
00:36:20
the Hell's Angels well there there are actually several biker gangs let's say or biker clubs or group groups whatever
00:36:27
you want to refer to them as that have been rumored to have been involved in Wayne's death I think the strange thing
00:36:34
here to me Captain is I wonder personally if this just is like Wayne drove a Harley he he had he had a Harley
00:36:43
he was a motorcycle guy is this like the is this one more way to kind of tie this
00:36:49
in because and and Wayne was a loud man he was kind of a [ __ ] talker mhm so is this where it comes from well and he
00:36:59
he was at bars and poker games I to me I I feel like if he got loud or aggressive
00:37:06
with somebody in a biker club that that person would have just straightened him out right there on the
00:37:12
spot this isn't something that I I I can't believe that any of these type of gangs would be like oh well let's just
00:37:20
sit on this for months or years and we'll send a bomb to his his family's home and that being the key word family
00:37:29
in there because with a lot of these situations including you know Irish mob Italian mafia All That Jazz if you if
00:37:39
you are in one of these gangs even if they are a violent gang or if they are a mob or Mafia that will do things uh
00:37:47
violently causing someone's death at the end of the day these men regardless of how violent they are they are
00:37:54
individuals that have families themselves and the way that the the thought is of
00:38:00
most of these individuals would be that they wouldn't risk harming somebody that
00:38:05
was innocent to settle a debt or to gain revenge on someone well I agree with you
00:38:11
mostly on that I do want to bring up the idea and it even states in the letter had a hard time finding you so if you
00:38:19
need to settle a score and you can't find that person that this maybe is not so much a counter a cowardly way but
00:38:29
that you just can't make contact with this individual and so is this something they would do and then that started
00:38:36
making me wonder the Acton home what was the name of the company again Acton home
00:38:43
Pro uh products okay neither one of us can talk today um does that does the ahp stand for something possibly some form
00:38:55
of um biker gang or something well so there there's a couple of thoughts in and around this whole Theory itself is
00:39:06
that could this be linked to a biker gang could this have been a hit the other thing that people have considered
00:39:12
and discussed was was Wayne getting into some hardcore drugs and was drugs the link to his actual murder yeah he was an
00:39:21
avid pot smoker and he was known to sell pot to people but family and friends say
00:39:28
never heard him talk about anything of a harder drug or or anything like that now I went down all of these
00:39:36
roads when looking into this case and if if we go into each one of these we could be talking about this case for
00:39:44
four or five hours M if anybody wants to look into those angles I recommend it however take this with you along the way
00:39:51
or consider this before going down these roads what I found when we cover these cases and in my you know long history of
00:40:01
reading about true crime is usually Captain I find that when something is linked to a biker gang to the mafia or
00:40:10
to drugs it's pretty easily connected by police they may not they may not know the exact culprit they might may not
00:40:19
know the individual or the exact individuals responsible right but usually in these investigations you can
00:40:25
get the vibe from investigators from the detectives fairly early on that they they know they they they'll say hey we
00:40:33
believe this is drug related right they know the entity that's responsible right
00:40:38
and without any exact proof of him having doing any harder anything harder than marijuana I mean look I've seen it
00:40:48
I've seen investigators go down that road to and it just it usually doesn't pan out there's usually something very
00:40:55
obvious from the get- go that it's one of those things and I think when we have limited time here to discuss the
00:41:02
possibilities and discuss discuss the theories MH I think that spending too much time on those there just doesn't
00:41:09
seem to be enough there for me right and this guy that came forward I think he might just believe the rumor he heard I
00:41:17
think everything that that we have here is something linked to Wayne's work all right so let's get into your your
00:41:26
thoughts your opinions well and what I mean by that is not necessarily solely related to his work what I mean is that
00:41:34
something I believe whoever sent this bomb to his home whoever's responsible for this I believe that the the tension
00:41:44
whatever led to this individual taking this action it happened during the course of his time with surge or his
00:41:52
time with DNL and the reason why I say that is simply because of the names Lisa and Joe listed on the letter right and
00:42:00
also the letter is also indicating hey you've done work for us before we're looking for you to do work for us in the
00:42:06
future blah blah blah you see what I mean it it feels like there's something in that time period of his life that is
00:42:14
a connection there it could be the problem with this case is there's so many possibilities and what I mean by
00:42:22
that is to simplify them it's either business or personal personal Affairs who knows how many Affairs this guy had
00:42:28
MH and then when it comes down play on player when it comes down to business I really feel like it's DNL or surge but
00:42:36
at the same time it feels like to me that working for the surge company and his owning his own company of DNL
00:42:43
allowed him to have some of these Affairs as well so I firmly believe that it's something based around those to be
00:42:51
honest with you Captain at the end of the day I kind of feel like Ed Senior and Ed Jr might be the ones here and the
00:43:01
reason why I say that is for a couple of reasons we have two individuals that seem to have been inquiring about
00:43:08
Wayne's address MH if you look at those composits and I now mind you I'm looking
00:43:15
at pictures of Ed Jr and Ed Senior from 2016 2017 but if you can kind of play back
00:43:23
the tape go 20 years ago these guys kind of look like the composite drawings right especially Ed Junior right and
00:43:31
there's two drawings and to have two individuals that work together that are related to look like the drawings that's
00:43:38
kind of a coincidence yeah I mean when you look at the structure of Ed Junior's face his haircut and his his neck the
00:43:44
size of his neck MH that looks to me like the composite of the younger man what I would say label as the younger
00:43:51
man of the two composits the older individual appears to me to be a Ed Senior from 20 years ago it's a similar
00:44:00
style hair similar style face the only difference is I you there are there are glasses being worn by the person in the
00:44:08
composite drawing and I can't say for certain if I recall if Ed Senior was wearing glasses now I saw and you have
00:44:16
as well and I've listened to interviews with both of these individuals senior and Junior the thing is when I'm
00:44:24
watching these or listening to him I do need to keep in mind I've only seen edited versions of these interviews this
00:44:32
is not like watching them start to finish right it's edited versions The troubling thing for me here is while
00:44:40
both of them seem somewhat candid when they sit down and are willing to talk with the families and talk with the CBC
00:44:47
regarding these uh regarding this murder both of them do do two things that I I find are intriguing they both
00:44:55
say I couldn't have murdered him in fact I couldn't kill anybody at all and then
00:45:01
two both of them es especially Ed Senior Ed Senior seems to spend a lot of time telling them of what roads he would go
00:45:12
down other possible suspects yeah and and even naming his son as one look he might just be trying to be helpful or at
00:45:21
the same time he might be trying to steer uh the spotlight away from himself well law enforcement did say that they
00:45:29
gave certain suspects polygraphs but they weren't going to go into that information now Ed Jr claims that his
00:45:36
father brags about taking a polygraph and passing that well he says in one of those interviews that he gave several
00:45:42
polygraphs right but we don't know that that's what happened and Ed JR says that
00:45:48
they never even brought up the word polygraph to him yeah so a curious thing here is we have Ed Senior telling the
00:45:58
CBC he says well you know they asked me uh about DNA they ask me why they would have found hairs of mine on the farm on
00:46:07
now mind you they just moved to this Farm 6 months before his murder mhm at senior has never been to this farm so
00:46:14
why would they find hairs of his on the farm and he States well you know that he
00:46:19
would this guy was was was a crook all the time playing games whatever he would steal my baseball caps and wear you know
00:46:26
I'd have a hat missing and then the next day I'd see him wearing it right and I thought oh well I need a new hat so he
00:46:32
has an answer for why they would find hair at his farm well he has an answer for everything what I think's a little
00:46:39
telling there though when we go back to many of the cases that we've covered but
00:46:44
let's look at one specifically the West Memphis 3 case we know the what was it a
00:46:50
page of nine questions that the FBI formulated for the local police and invest investigators to ask people while
00:46:58
they were canvasing the neighborhood one of those questions was why would DNA or
00:47:04
why would evidence of you be found at the crime scene my where my head goes with this Captain is what if during the
00:47:12
course of Ed Senior being interviewed they're not telling him that they found his hair there right they're simply
00:47:19
stating why would we find your hair at the crime scene why would we find your hair at their farm and he has an answer
00:47:26
for that why why isn't again this is a edited interview but why isn't that answer going well I was never at the
00:47:34
farm that's the answer they're looking for to clear you I was never at the farm so you wouldn't have found my hair there
00:47:40
right no instead he has a way to get his hair from off of the top of his head all
00:47:44
the way to that farm that he's never been to the other weird thing too is when Ed Jr's
00:47:51
talking he says and I swear during the course of the interiew interview I heard him say that he had
00:47:58
drove by the farm on one occasion MH and he he references that oh I said to myself that looks like a nice place but
00:48:08
we have both of these individuals saying that they lost touch with Wayne for about three years right but you drove by
00:48:16
his home and how did you know where he lived and then you have let's back it up even more you have Ed Senior he says in
00:48:26
interview oh I kind of lost track for him completely for 2 years well they didn't work together they had their
00:48:32
falling out over three years before his murder he says in that first year he was
00:48:37
keeping tabs on Wayne because of what I reverenced earlier the Michael Scott situation where Wayne is taking his
00:48:45
employees and trying to take his clients and customers as well MH and so he kept
00:48:50
tabs on him for about a year Well likely Ed Senior could have have known that Lisa left and went to work
00:48:57
for Wayne without keeping tabs he could have known that Joe left and went to work for Wayne without keeping tabs but
00:49:04
having kept tabs he 100% would know this mhm what about what did did you hear the
00:49:11
slip in Ed Jr's interview where he's where he talks about the falling the last falling out between him and his
00:49:19
father and he says that they got into some type of argument and he says I never saw my father act that way before
00:49:25
I never saw him that mad right and he said to me that I will do the same and then Ed
00:49:35
these are Ed Junior's words talking about his father saying Ed Senior said I will do I will do the same or the same
00:49:42
thing and then he cuts himself off and he says he basically said he would kill me right was he about to say that that
00:49:50
his father told him the same thing that happened to Wayne is going to happen to you
00:49:56
right which is weird like and it's almost like he catches himself and stops that statement now it could have been a
00:50:03
slip of the tongue did I say every word perfectly today no every sentence perfectly today no maybe on episode
00:50:11
975 but but maybe if I edit for six hours but what I'm getting at it seemed like almost a weird slip there to me
00:50:20
that there's weird slips in both of their interviews yeah I think and and the thing you pointed out especially
00:50:26
with Ed Senior Ed Jor does it a little bit too but Ed Senor does that crazy laugh at the end of every statement well
00:50:32
I also believe he's wearing a hearing aid so that could affect uh how he's delivering uh his message on certain
00:50:41
things true so so you know be cautious of that but I think what would be really interesting especially during this
00:50:48
documentary if they could have got Wackadoo one and Wackadoo Jr into a room and see what kind of chemistry would
00:50:57
happen and what kind of stories they would tell and what kind of slip-ups they would they
00:51:02
tell but you said something that I fully agree with both stated they couldn't kill somebody well sending a bomb you
00:51:10
are killing somebody but you're not doing the ACT yourself right uh you ask senior who's smart enough to do this oh
00:51:18
my son could he could do anything so uh so that kind of feel like a slip as well but also the thing that really
00:51:29
bothers me is the fact that senior can point to Junior and say um he could have done this and this is why he would have
00:51:37
and then Junior basically says the same thing about his father and maybe they did some um investiga you know here's a
00:51:45
here's my big thing about this investigation that I don't like they had several suspects and they would said you
00:51:50
know we we would find out their aliis look sometimes with these cases is The Alibi is willing to lie for the
00:51:58
person at the time but if you go back later and start redigging will that person then tell you I don't know if he
00:52:07
was there or not would that alibi crumble mhm well that's what makes this case interesting and unique compared to
00:52:15
a lot of other cases that we've covered the whole thought of The Alibi what kind
00:52:20
of Alibi do you need when a random package shows up that turns out to be a bomb very good point and the thing here
00:52:26
too is back to the hairs back to and this is Ed senior's words this is not me just coming up with this this is them
00:52:33
saying well not making up some words why would we have found your hair at their farm and he says well he he had all my
00:52:40
old baseball hats you know my old ball caps he he would take them and they probably had some hairs in there well
00:52:46
guess the whole thing when we talked about what evidence could we find in the letter the packaging the bomb itself
00:52:52
there were two hairs that were found underneath the tape on the box itself on the packaging for this bomb what do we
00:53:01
have here we have Ed Senior explaining away why his hair would be found at the farm we also have Ed Jr that later
00:53:09
States look they came to me asking me a whole bunch of questions they asked me to submit DNA they asked me to submit
00:53:14
hair samples I answered some of their questions I refused to give them DNA I refused to give my hair samples I told
00:53:20
him if you're knocking on my door then you're way off the path right just give them your hair man right give them your
00:53:27
hair if they're way off the path and both these dudes got money you know I know I know at least Ed Senior does I I
00:53:34
I feel like Ed junor probably does lawyer up give him your hair quit being Shifty it's it's weird too again again
00:53:43
with the whole thing of Ed Senior Throwing Shade any chance he gets he's sitting in front of the children of his
00:53:50
dead friend of his murdered friend one-time friend M and he says you somebody that he even States was more of
00:53:57
a son to him than his own son yeah and he says he was a pig he was he was a womanizer he was he was a thief he was a
00:54:05
criminal you know he was a crook he and what he's doing in my opinion is he's pointing out a million reasons why it's
00:54:14
anybody else other than him to the to the damn point that he would even take his own son throw him under the bus and
00:54:21
say my son's smart enough to do this I don't think that he did I don't think he has it in his heart but I went down that
00:54:27
path myself is what he says yeah and on top of that the thing that you just pointed out is key here just because
00:54:36
these two individuals say I couldn't have killed anybody guess what that's exactly who they are looking for who the
00:54:41
police are looking for if the P if the psychology of past bombers translates to this case that's exactly who they're
00:54:49
looking for someone that doesn't have the ability to strangle someone stab someone shoot someone face to face mhm
00:54:56
or even have the guts to be in the same room with them when this goes down well let me just tell you something the jury
00:55:03
they deliberated they're back from lunch my friend the verdict is out J the verdict is
00:55:12
in you guys are wackadoos well you you know what is wacky is it throughout the course of the short interview with Ed Jr
00:55:23
he constantly says this the phrase I was blown away that blew me away over and over again when he's talking about
00:55:30
things related to his father and related to the case right and it's weird to me and I know that it's likely just a slip
00:55:37
or maybe it's just a common phrase that he uses often throughout his life but we're talking about a murdered victim
00:55:43
who was blown up right was it a subconscious slip right [Music] no recommended reading this week but if
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you want to catch up on our old episodes our old episodes are exclusively on the
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00:56:18
garage next week until then be good be kind and don't litter [Music] [Applause] [Music]
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