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thank you [Music] [Music] thank you this is true crime garage and this is part three of When a Killer calls
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[Music] always very excited to have Mr John Douglas here with us in the garage this
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is the third time that you've come and graced us with your presence and we are excited as we always are to chat with
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you and today we're talking about your new book When a Killer cause this is a fascinating story from the mid 80s that
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took place in South Carolina with a very a very horrific case and tragic case but
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one that's really not only will appeal to our listeners and appeals to me as kind of a case
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study but the the criminal Larry Gene Bell just fascinating and absolutely bizarre his crimes that he
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committed and the way that he not just committed these crimes but also emotionally tortured his victims and
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their families right Mr Douglas one thing that I found incredibly fascinating about the details of your
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new book it really hones in on a lot of the communications that Larry Gene Bell felt were necessary to him when
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committing the crimes that he did and some Killers communicate with the media some with law enforcement from
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your experience why do you think some choose to communicate with the media and others choose to communicate with law
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enforcement uh yeah I've had cases uh I interviewed Dennis Schrader the BTK Strangler and it was just a they're all
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looking for power all these crimes are sense of power and control and someone like Dennis Schrader or the Zodiac it's
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uh they want more than just local attention they want to National National you know attention
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um in the case of that that I just wrote about I want to killer calls I never really had a case you know like this
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before uh because this the signature uh the that's an aspect of the case that is
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not necessary to perpetrate the case but it's a need that the subject has and his
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need was to sadistically torture the families of Sherry Faye Smith there were two victims involved
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but Sherry face Smith giving him initially false hope that that their daughter was still alive and then uh
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having the victim write a last will and testament that he would mail to the family and Sherry Faye Smith is is now
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saying goodbye to her family it was just an unbelievable family the religious and
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Faith you know that they had I mean it was emotionally draining for me and everyone else
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involved you know in the in the case but this guy this guy then uh after the last
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one and testament he sets up these communications initially he's disguising his voice and we send the uh the tapes
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of the FBI lab and they say he has some type of a monitoring device on the phone
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which began to tell us something about his background his profile uh his his intelligence so he was changing his
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voice as the case went on after a period of time he stopped using that uh that device because he was gaining confidence
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he just felt that he was not you know not catchable no one would ever identify him but when this case kept evolving and
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kept going on and on uh and then I'm working with the families and working with a sister her sister named Dawn
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to use as a bait really to get this guy to keep communicating with us because the more he communicates the more we
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begin to learn about him but it was very difficult in the 80s because we had to keep him on the phone for such a long
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period of time up to 15 15 minutes before we can put a traps and Trace and he was well aware of that so I had to
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work with the with the uh the sister of Sherry Faith Smith and basically kind of
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give it like kind of like hostage negotiating skills and and that is like uh paraphrase and restate the content
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that he's trying to whatever he's telling you just keep like confirming that you understand what he's
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saying but he was too sharp at that time he would he would uh bail on us but one
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of the worst things about this I mean it was it was horrific was that the mother
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received some of the calls as well as the sister Don and then the mother asked him the mother
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says that my daughter knows she was going to die and Bell says yes you know she did and I gave her a choice and she
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could pick uh drug overdose gunshot or Suffocation and your daughter selected Suffocation and so what he did he
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proceeded to use duct tape while she was alive and duct taped her her head and then he waits he waits days for the
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body to decompose before he tells us that tells the family through now Dawn the other the other sister where we can
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find find Sherry Faye Smith and the reason that began that tells you something about him too because he
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doesn't want to leave anything forensically for us to determine like the cause of death to locate any kind of
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hair and fiber evidence but what you could see is that then we and we knew about the duct tape just by the evidence
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as she uh her hair after he duct taped her head he removed the duct tape because he didn't want to leave any
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fingerprints on the duct tape and he would end up cutting some of the hair on her head to totally remove the duct tape
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but from us so it was just it was just an unbelievable bookcase and and uh to set up he stopped communicating with us
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that's that was a problem when I finally went down there you could stop communicating with with the police
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uh with the the family and I had to get him to talk I had to get him to get back
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on the phone so I I sat down with the investigative reporter and I told the investigative reporter uh that I I
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wanted her to come up with a story where Sherry Faye is uh is buried you want to
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have a memorial service and uh I'm not going to write it for you I can't do that as an agent but I want you to make
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it poetic and we're going to set up at the the grave site we're going to put a kind of a lectern a white lectern with
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shy face picture on it and uh when I was at the house I asked to see shark face bedroom and Dawn her sister showed me
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the bedroom and and in the bedroom where dozens upon dozens of of koala bears and
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I started thinking in my brain what can I what can I do here what can I do and I
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saw a small koala bear that was hanging from a string and it took that you pinched the shoulders and it opens up
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and I'm thinking without telling anyone I'm going to use this at the gravesite I'm going to have Dawn who now he was
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targeting Dawn uh the other sister placed that at the uh at the graveside on a flower and the hope is uh Nick is
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that he will will Peak his curiosity because we do know from the research that I conducted and my colleagues they
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like to collect souvenirs mementos relative to the to the crime so we did all done all those things uh
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unfortunately from an investigative perspective I had no control over this uh but she was buried very very close to
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the road if and he would not take that kind of risk but we were monitoring the vehicles and we would catch him another
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way but had we not caught him another way that we talk about in the book we would we would have come across some
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eventually because we had we had his license plate number he stopped along with other cars and we were recording
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all of those uh vehicles and from him once we would do it say a criminal check you know on these people who were
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stopping we would find with him that he had history he had a criminal history of
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attempted abduction early on in his life he was involved in obscene telephone calls you try to abduct a nine-year-old
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girl besides a uh another teenager so we would have got him sooner sooner than later but we got bottom other ways
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forensically one thing that I found incredibly fascinating and I love when a great book comes out on a case in
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particularly one that fits into this realm for me where this is a case that I thought that I knew very well and then I
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read your new book When a Killer calls and figure out that I only knew kind of the tip of the iceberg here there's a
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lot to digest and a lot to take in from your new book now one thing I picked up while reading is that
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it almost appears to me in some bizarre way and this is something I didn't know before
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that Larry was in love or in his in his own bizarre way thought he was in love with Sherry Fay Smith yeah he would say
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later on that he was stalking her he he came across her in a parking lot and so he was kind of surveilling her and uh on
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that particular day of the abduction she was with a boyfriend they just left a pool party and we would find out later
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on that he was in that parking lot he was watching and they were kissing and then then after that they said goodbye
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to each other her and her boyfriend um uh Richard and he tailed her home follows the home very very closely had
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she pulled into a driveway and pulled her vehicle up to the house he never would have pulled into the driveway our
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house set back about 200 yards from the mailbox she stopped her vehicle at the mailbox to check the mail and at that
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point in time is when he pulls up behind her his modus operandi we knew he had a
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gun we later would find out he had a gun we assumed he would have something like
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that to gain that kind of control he also had a a camera and he would take it was taking pictures of her and he just
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comes across as a nice guy and the guy you know people they look good criminals they think they could they look a
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certain way this guy looks like you're you're next door neighbor it could be any he could be anyone but once he got
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her uh close to the uh to his vehicle and that's when you know when he grabbed her but he had this this fantasy and but
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the fantasy you see can only last a short period of time because from the point of abduction to the point of
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killing uh her was only a several hours several hours and and so he he had to perpetuate this and that's why then he
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shifted over to the sister and then uh first he was very very nice very very polite her but then he goes out and he
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abducts and kills a nine-year-old child who's playing in front of her her uh residence uh the family just moved into
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this trailer park and she's out in the yard very boldly pulls up in front and grabs this nine-year-old child takes off
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with her to get a description of the vehicle but not enough a good enough description
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um to where we could identify him and he weighs in wastes and waits and then he calls up the first family the Smith
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family and Dawn and he tells Dawn he says do you know you remember that Abduction the other day the girl Deborah
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helmick and she says yes she says well he gives her these directions the directions where we can find the body
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and like her sister he waited for the body to be an advanced stage edges of decomposition before he gave us the
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location you know you know of her but all this began and we did a profile um the police department the Lexington
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Police Department it was tremendous to tremendous Department both the sheriff and the underseriff attended the FBI
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National Academy which is an 11-week program and the FBI trains about a thousand police officers a year
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worldwide and so they they took classes one of the classes they took was in in my area in criminal profiling criminal
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psychology like so many cops once they go back to their Department they'll think they'll never have a case like
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this and sure enough here they get hit by this case and then they they contact us and we don't for your listeners we
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don't always go out on cases in fact most of the cases are kind of over cases when we get them old dog cases but if
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we're involved in the case where the app the offender is killing and now he's killing again and you probably want to
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kill one more time if we don't identify them we're going out it's just like the Atlanta child killing case I mean
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I I was receiving calls early on developing an analysis but there were so many killings so now I have to go on
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site I got I got to see for myself and work with the investigators you know on uh you know on site so this department
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they were they were very very open uh to suggestions and to proactive techniques
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uh this is like 19 you know 85 nick uh in June uh 19 you know of my background uh in 1983 the end of 83 November
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December I knew I died on the Green River murder case or just burned out had Viral Encephalitis and
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came home in a a wheelchair so I really lost my confidence and and I didn't know
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if I I would miss a beat and so by now in 1984 I'm get I nearly had to die before I could get help so now now they
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give me they give me Agents from the field who I'm selecting or good investigators to train them but it takes
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a while to to train them so so here this case comes up now in the mid mid 85. now
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I got to go out I got to go on site and provide on-site consultation I'm going to bring a relatively new agent good
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Agent but a relatively new agent in my program you know uh you know with the you know with me uh the profile that we
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did turned out to be very very accurate I think we just missed the age we thought he'd be between the late 20s to
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early 30s he was about 34 35 which isn't which isn't bad everything else about him uh his we felt he would have some
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kind of electrical background he was an electrician body type he felt he would be a slovenly uh type we felt he was
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obsessive compulsive reasoning for that is because you can tell when he was calling the family uh he would follow a
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script if he was asked a question in the middle of his his uh lecture to say to Dawn or the mother it would throw him
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off so then he had to repeat had to repeat himself and so he was would be this obsessive-compulsive types kind of
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a guy who you're going you're going to his garage you see you see uh he'd have outline where the screwdriver hangs or
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where the the hammer hangs he would outline that and his clothes it would be very orderly in uh in his closet in his
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personal appearance would look the same or his vehicle and we went we were uh we
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felt a guy like this could not have any kind of a uh a normal relationship with women that he probably was married
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previously married uh in the past when she started out he was uh he was previously married had had
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a son the criminal history he had that as I mentioned earlier he had you know all of that so you can do the profile
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but then you have to really you know in fact when I just when I retired from the
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bureau in the last couple of years I was kind of getting away from the demographic profile Nick I wanted more
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to get into proactive techniques I wanted the public to know I wanted to public to know more about uh
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characteristics or the behavioral patterns because if you develop a profile then you release it publicly
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you're trying to develop leads but say you miss the age you're saying the guy's a high school drop down a guy may have a
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college degree but everything else may fit well the person may say gee everything fits this guy who I know but
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the education is on but the so I was getting away from from that but focusing more on pre-defense behavior and post
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offense post-defense Behavior what was the behavior leading up to the crime what would have happened to him after
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the crime like this case we told the police he will be changing his personal appearance We Believe which he did do
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and so things like that and then what can I do uh to maybe cause the subject to inject himself into the police
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investigation to go to the gravesite how to keep him contacting the family which
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was very stressful Mr Smith I was kind of Heming and Horn about what I was going to be what was on my mind
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how I wanted to use the the daughter as kind of a lure and a giant tell me what what what's on your mind what do you
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think what are you thinking you're telling me I saw Mr Smith and I said we're dealing with somebody here who
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knows he's not the type who's going to pull into this driveway and and hurt anyone he's not that type but I can see
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what's happening here is that he's transferring you know his you know you know his fondness his
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fantasy towards Dawn here and and I I need Dawn and we need Dawn to uh to lure him in and to get him to communicate uh
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to communicate with us and uh and then he agreed he agreed with me and and Dawn another one just very religious family
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uh she's a uh uh she's part of a church in in South Carolina and uh preaches has a beautiful voice she sings
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uh the Sherry Faye beautiful girl here it is on a Friday May 31st she's graduating Sunday from high school she's
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going to sing the national anthem at her graduation I I communicate with the family to this day I mean all these
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years and they set up a fund for Sherry face Smith that I I participate in raising money for a scholarship for
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because she wanted to go into uh into music so it's just emotionally emotionally
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you know I just had my physical the other day and and the doctor said how do you do sleeping how do you sleep and I
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said I can't I can't sleep I have I I have it's a very difficult time sleeping here I said if it was me I'd get up at
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three or four o'clock in the morning but my my wife wouldn't appreciate it because I just think of something I'm
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just always thinking of things or cases that are that are on my desk or my work uh uh that uh that I'm currently
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involved in I mean the job your career almost took your life I remember reading in one of your earlier books where you
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said you were working so much that you almost prayed that you would you know you would try to think about the cases
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up to the point of falling asleep to you would dream about the cases so you could
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continue working while you're sleeping yeah I I would uh I would go to bed it was quiet everything's quiet and have a
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trying to come up with ideas help me help me come up with ideas and if I kept a pad of paper and if I wake up I
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thought of something I would write it down because I'm afraid I was going to forget about it you know what's
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interesting Nick is that people who watch television they see the shows and everything but the degree today well new
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degree is kind of forensic psychology but there's so many people so many young people too and the majority of the art
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my audiences too when I go out and do public speaking uh 89 are women they're interested in this field but I have to
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tell them this job it can be hazardous to your health and such as me it's the other other people that were in in my
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unit because you really you have really have to throw yourself into it understanding and walking the shoes of
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the subject as well as the victim and you're not you're not working one case at a time at any given time uh the
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agency that in my unit we were doing a thousand cases a year after 12 12 agent profiles and myself and we had also with
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training Secret Service was training training them they you would think that they had a program they didn't even have
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a program like this you would think they would have trained Secret Service the bureau Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms the
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volume of work and the nature of the work and that's why leading up to the time where I nearly died I'm up in New
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York training a couple hundred cops and and I know my material very well so my mouth is
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talking but my brain is thinking of these cases I got to go up to Alaska where a guy named Rock I know a little
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bit later on his name was Robert Hansen uh the onsub is up there the uh abducting women and then hunting them
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down like wild animals he would fly up into the Wilderness stripping down naked and hunting hunt them down I got to go
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over to Seattle King County to work on the Green River murder case and have all these
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other cases so I have an anxiety attack Nick I think I'm gonna I'm having a heart attack and the the
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audience goes because because I know my materials my mouth is moving but I'm sweating my horse pounding and and I'm
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saying to myself regroup can I regroup so I regrouped and no one really detected anything as far as I know but
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when I came back to Quantico I knew uh something's gonna happen to me I may die something bad so I took out income
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protection insurance I took out extra life insurance I didn't tell anyone didn't tell my family or anything but
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the day I had to go out on the Green River murder case uh I said goodbye to my wife at home and then she's a school
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teacher and I drove over to say goodbye to her again and why are you going out there why are you doing this I I said I
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have to uh they're asking for on-site consultation I have to train this new these two new agents they assigned me to
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my unit I I you don't look well your eyes I said well yeah I have a tremendous headache
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what was happening Nick was my brain was swelling up and my apparently later on the doctors say my immune system was
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just so so low and when I when I came back in a wheelchair from this uh from the Green River America in fact I was
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gonna be buried I'm a veteran as well and I was going to be buried at the Veteran Cemetery they were making plants
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because my uh I collapsed back at the hotel room and as you know if I read mind Hunter and I know you did and and
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uh I I thought I was getting a flu and my brain was swelling and I told the agents it's Tuesday night I'll see you
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Friday when we head back to Quantico and uh back to DC and uh that and they said
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okay we'll see you Friday and this is what I don't know what to do when I go back to the task force well that night I
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collapsed and I remained on that floor until Friday until they kicked down the door but when they found me my body was
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in a frog-like position and every they said every 30 seconds to admit my body start shaking like you know just
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trembling like crazy my face would become distorted uh emergency people came First Responders my body
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temperature was between 104 107 and what happened was it my brain split in my right uh temporal lobe which would cause
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temporary I was amazing how I got over this the temporary paralysis but they thought for sure
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that I was going to I was going to you know die from that and it made me though Nick it made me a better leader a good
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leader because uh the people that do this work they throw themselves into it and when I would see
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people in my unit who who are uh giving every drop of of sweat and blood to help
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others I would tell them to go home and then they they start to go home but with
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the cases they said no you leave the case this year but you see in the bureau it's so it is so bureaucratic you're not
00:25:56
supposed to allow agents to do that you got to sign in and sign out and so I would break all the you know all the uh
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the rules but it just made me a better a better person here but I get I keep getting caught in the abyss I keep I I
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would go out to the cemetery where I was going to be buried and I look for my date when I feel like oh here it goes I
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I can't I gotta I can't I have no control over what's going on I have just so much so much so many cases and so
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many calls coming in from whether it's profile I was also a hostage negotiator so these young kids that's when I go wow
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I tell them I said you know this is not like the you know like a 60-minute show or something that you're watching on
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television and when you see if this this death and dying and it's not just even murders it's victims of rape uh and
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these child abductions child child killings and then the impact how it has on the families and I have families Nick
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that this this is uh unbelievable if who want me to tell them in a case of say a
00:27:08
homicide how their their daughter how their child died uh what did the killer specifically do did my child suffer uh
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or did she die quickly did my child put up a fight uh uh and and at first I wouldn't I couldn't do it but then they
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get mad at you and it's just like when family members they want to go in the morgue and I I didn't realize this since
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I was working with victims of violent crime they want to see for themselves what what took place to their to the
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loved one and so you think you're protecting them by no you can't go in there but they get angry now they want
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to see for themselves they want to they want to to just to see what uh their loved one uh you know went through and
00:27:53
and suffered so it's emotionally uh draining it's just uh you know and when you work so many cases it has a
00:28:04
cumulative effect you know on you so I had to go see his shrink when I when I came back kind of like Tony Soprano
00:28:10
going to do a shrink because so I uh and and the test they gave me they said you
00:28:16
burn the candle both ends you're this didn't get you together you could have a heart attack and I was exercising but I
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was exercising to the point of exhausting myself just trying to kind of numb my feelings uh which uh I I
00:28:31
couldn't do I really I really couldn't do so when they finally gave me help just because they give you help doesn't
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mean uh they you could train somebody overnight it takes about two years to train somebody and like in any
00:28:43
profession it takes off five years before they really start getting good you know at
00:28:49
what they do and I'm talking a lot Nick it's actually gonna get a chance and you're right I'm still trying to get
00:28:55
good at what I do but it's you know you didn't have to pinch yourself to know that you were human it's it's your heart
00:29:01
and it's your soul that really infected your brain and and the stress is what almost took you down because I can only
00:29:08
imagine you're sitting there you know you're being moved all over the country to to take on these different Adventures
00:29:15
but here you are in New York and trying to teach in in what you know better you know inside you're better equipping
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these Law Enforcement Officers to to increase their toolbox and do a better job become more efficient at what they
00:29:29
do so you are helping but the whole time in the back of your mind you're going what am I doing here if I'm not in
00:29:34
Alaska then we're losing lives that I'm I'm not saving lives and then while in Alaska dealing with uh bad Bob Hanson
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you're in the back of your mind you're going why am I not in Washington there are people getting at a crazy and
00:29:48
alarming rate uh in in in the state of Washington at the same time so I I mean I cannot imagine the the stress and and
00:29:57
the anxiety that that can cost [Music] foreign [Music] it's kind of like that it was in the
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mind Hunter uh Netflix uh series is is that uh I got involved in this I just wanted to be a good instructor I was the
00:30:48
youngest agent when I came back to Quantico I had about seven years in the field had four years in the military
00:30:53
seven years in the field hash negotiator uh also uh bank robbery coordinator I remember on the SWAT team a couple
00:31:01
Advanced degrees at that point in time but I was the youngest one and auditing the classes these instructors they
00:31:08
didn't have their facts right and they were being challenged by those National Academy students in the class who worked
00:31:13
the Charles Manson case with David Berkowitz the Son of Sam so I just wanted to be a good instructor and so
00:31:20
that's I came up the idea of go into the prison and let's talk to the to the experts and then then you have uh Dr Ann
00:31:28
Burgess joins us from Boston College and she was also at the University of Penn she was at both universities came and to
00:31:36
uh her job was it's this it's not like uh Netflix how they uh the show how she's telling us how to do interviews
00:31:44
now she's basically is academic telling us how to develop the academic instruments for uh the interviews as far
00:31:51
as the interviews itself now we're doing that or developing the proactive you know techniques you know we're doing you
00:31:57
know all that kind of stuff uh but so the other thing and we didn't have the blessing I didn't have the blessing of
00:32:03
necessarily the FBI either in the early days I mean if Hoover was alive he this could never even have been accomplished
00:32:09
at all he never would have done this and and then even then after he died in 1972 uh there was still you know what is
00:32:19
this uh Behavioral Science is BS uh kind of stuff you know you know that you know
00:32:24
why are you doing that why why are you going to these prisons why are you doing these you know these incentives so you
00:32:29
didn't have to support necessarily from the bureau and then you when you go out to the cops initially too it's like they
00:32:36
didn't trust us because we were FBI and they thought the days of whoever you know we had we had uh the agency would
00:32:45
dominate the police or take the police would work a case and then comes the bureau to swoop maybe swoop up the uh
00:32:53
the case from the from the local police and and and so I wanted to change that and by the time I left the bureau it was
00:33:01
interesting it was a situation where we got so tight with the local police and really then our agents in charge of
00:33:08
our offices out in the field office so saying a case would go down they were calling us directly and and you tell
00:33:16
them you have to go through headquarters the criminal investigative division no we got we want to talk directly to you
00:33:22
and your unit you have to go and So eventually we was okay here's what you do or here special agent in charge of
00:33:30
the Cleveland FBI you got a kidnapping here you're going to go before the press this is what you say this is what you
00:33:36
don't say and then headquarters would would get on us like what the hell are you doing telling the agent in charge
00:33:42
what to do well he's asking us he's asking us so that that uh it caused a lot of stress just see you know how
00:33:52
you're being you know being you know treated within the agency then outside the agency but then we it's just time
00:33:59
went on uh we're pretty uh welcome and and always give credit to the local they're the ones and the police the
00:34:07
police or if it's an FBI case the agents or whatever agency you're going to solve
00:34:12
it just a tool in your toolbox that it may be able to help you I may not be able to to help you and uh people don't
00:34:20
realize too it's not just these kind of cases I work public I'm a unit public corruption cases foreign
00:34:26
counterintelligence we did uh you know Assessments in those kind of cases in arsons and bombings product tampering
00:34:34
you know the Tylenol case out of Chicago so all kinds of cases product tampering
00:34:39
all the you know all types of cases that we did so we had a great it was a great
00:34:44
great bunch of people that we had they're doing a lot of a lot of work back then we were lucky enough to have
00:34:51
Dr Ann Burgess on just a few weeks ago oh is that right yeah it was fascinating to talk with her
00:34:57
um but she is yeah her hair is a victim uh with the victim she did uh you know did a lot she's amazing I mean for her
00:35:03
age and she's still will go on going out you know at it but like I said when she
00:35:10
came down uh it's really funny because the Wendy character uh you know is she's as you notice it and there's forensic
00:35:18
forensic nursing yeah but they have this like like a psychologist in the the Mind
00:35:23
Hunter the Mind Hunter uh series and uh and and then her character is a lesbian and it's not a lesbian she's married
00:35:32
with several you know several children but I did a presentation with her at Boston College up there and and uh
00:35:38
they're really thrilled with her that she got you know the you know this uh you know this attention although they
00:35:44
Hollywood they Hollywood eyes her role they call it but as Mike holding forward the actors yeah playing like my role or
00:35:53
and uh everyone's hoping that there'll be a season three the actors want a season three uh it's up to David Fincher
00:36:01
the director uh and uh whether or not they'll be it was supposed to be a five-part series
00:36:08
five parts and and uh here they ended with two but they took a year they took a year and uh for each each uh of those
00:36:17
10 episodes and a year for the nine and they were filmed in the Pittsburgh up in
00:36:22
the Pittsburgh area and uh so they had it all relocate Jonathan Groth who played my role uh
00:36:30
holding forward he lives up in that area so there's no problem with him but Venture is just so obsessive compulsive
00:36:37
that in season two the first episode uh the actors were telling me this that there's a barbecue scene
00:36:45
where uh Bill tench like my partner he's barbecuing flipping hamburgers and hot dogs in his backyard and the neighbors
00:36:52
are over and they start asking questions so what do you do I'm at the Behavioral
00:36:56
Science unit and like do interviews and get really engrossed in that they repeated that uh 74 75 times that one
00:37:06
scene of flipping hot dogs and hamburgers 75 and uh some actors can't take it but uh they can't they can't do
00:37:14
that that's why the uh I had a girlfriend in uh season one season season one uh the actress who uh they
00:37:25
she just lasted one year holdingford thought he was going to have this relationship you know and and they would
00:37:31
live happily ever after and I was it was a great actress but it's just can you can you be that it's really strict you
00:37:38
know and uh over and over to get it and that's why these he makes these unbelievable uh movies or House of Cards
00:37:46
you know it was amazing a series on uh you know on Netflix well in season two there's that the big case obviously is
00:37:54
the Atlanta child killings and right if we do make it to season three I mean you
00:38:00
live the life what would be the big case would there be one big case or would it
00:38:04
be do you think it'd be more like season one I know you're not fully in charge here but yeah no what would it be more
00:38:10
like season one where it's a lot of uh smaller cases and a smaller involvement I had very little input surprisingly the
00:38:17
actors were surprised at themselves and very little input from the writer at all
00:38:23
uh the whole calendar came down here stayed with me at my house and everything he really dives into it
00:38:30
Jonathan Groff who plays me I didn't meet him until after you know after the fact and uh and they're if you're using
00:38:38
mind Hunter as a guide well my doctor I I thought I was gonna be a one book Wonder I can't so that so I Only Could
00:38:45
Touch on the cases like Atlanta child killing there were so many other and just like the Larry Jean Bell case you
00:38:52
know you'll touch on it but you won't go deep you don't have time to go deep you
00:38:56
know deep into it like you can in a a a single book but there are so many cases I mean they could do the Alaskan case uh
00:39:03
they could do the the trail side killer uh they could do John John Wayne Gacy they could do uh
00:39:11
Ted you know Ted Bundy they could do I mean there's just so you know you know so many uh they could do zodiac doesn't
00:39:18
have to solve a zodiac because it's really not solved but it you could do a case like that you could take it go in
00:39:24
to do a tile a Tylenol okay doors or a unibomber case there's just and there's so many other smaller cases that they
00:39:31
you you could do I mean those who've read or know my involved in Atlanta case it didn't happen like like
00:39:39
that where I'm checking into a motel and the woman checking me in is uh ends up uh you know inviting me out I think in
00:39:48
the in the show it's like I'm gonna go out on a date or something with her but she's ends up bringing me to where the
00:39:54
uh where many of the victims uh family are waiting to try to get my involvement you know in get involved in that case it
00:40:03
didn't go down like that and if and if anything when I went down on the case I mean I I
00:40:10
they raised hell with me and uh it was a case where I I the only case I think I only made the only Asian who was
00:40:18
censured censured and and then got a letter of accommodation and an incentive award for the same case you know they
00:40:25
hate you then they love you have a love-hate relationship you're with you they they hated me when
00:40:31
I came back from England I was trained in the military about it in Virginia and talking to
00:40:38
people in Corrections and here a hand goes up what about this guy they just arrested in Atlanta and I said well I
00:40:47
said I said if it's if he turns out to be um the landshocular he's he's gonna be
00:40:54
good for Maddie he's good for men well the crap hit the fan man the bureau looks at that as I'm a spokesperson now
00:41:01
for the agent in charge of the investigation I I thought I was going to be fired and then so then as the case
00:41:07
started going and um moving along did the assessment the profile and then got involved in the uh you know with
00:41:17
with the prosecutors and Coach the prosecutors and and then criticized the way the case was going uh like like one
00:41:25
day they a hair and fiber uh expert for the defense took the stand and looked like John F Kennedy uh the junior good
00:41:35
looking guy didn't know [ __ ] from Shinola about her and forensics but the the jurors love them
00:41:42
they love good how good he was he was speaking to them and so the next that afternoon had this big conference you
00:41:49
know and they go around the room did you hear that guy you know talk about here in fiber red but he didn't know what the
00:41:54
hell he was talking about and going around like the horn around this big table what do you think John I said you
00:42:00
guys are losing the case you're losing the case he may not know you know what he's talking about but you
00:42:08
guys from from the bureau and from uh gbi George your Bureau Investigation you're so damn technical I have no idea
00:42:17
what you're even saying it doesn't even make sense to me and I don't have this as much as at least as a jurors you'll
00:42:26
and so they so they would throw me out of that and they would you know send me back to Quantico then I tell them what
00:42:31
time I tell them hey I said it's just so you know Wayne Williams gonna get sick in the courtroom one week from today
00:42:37
I'll get out of here I go back to Quantico Williams gets sick in the courtroom and I told him before
00:42:45
why he will get sick in the courtroom and then the next you know get your ass back here so I had to go back to I spent
00:42:52
five months down there and then got involved in coaching the prosecutor great great guy Jack Mallard on how to
00:42:58
how to cross-examine Williams because I knew he would take the stand and Al binder who was the defense attorney
00:43:04
great he's a great guy I got to meet him really you know when he wasn't cross-examining
00:43:10
me or anybody else uh I I knew uh he would put Williams on the stand because because they were losing but I knew
00:43:18
Williams couldn't take it you know take any cross-examination so I worked with Jack Jack Mallard and he did a
00:43:24
tremendous tremendous job and broke him down on the stand and I know you've got that FBI profiler over there he's
00:43:31
pointing in my my direction you're not going to get me to fit it and your listeners may know that right
00:43:37
now they they're doing an investigation down there because they're trying to determine you know he was convicted of
00:43:44
two when we were down there we thought maybe eight to ten were related the other ones we couldn't see a
00:43:50
relationship here but but all those cases 28 26 cases were closed or closed and uh by the police so they are looking
00:43:59
the parents are demanding that the police look at these other cases which I was told they were you know they were
00:44:07
doing yeah and that has always fascinated me as well because I kind of feel like and this is just very basic
00:44:13
psychology and very my limited understanding of course I'm no expert here but I look at a case like that and
00:44:19
I see I don't know if if Wayne Williams it doesn't seem likely to me that the female victims are his you're exactly
00:44:28
right and it doesn't seem likely to me either that maybe the white victims are his either
00:44:33
um right he seemed to play within a certain sandbox if you will and those ones were out of that box and and I
00:44:42
don't know that unless it was some kind of learning curve or you know that he was working on maybe there there is some
00:44:50
kind of mix up there but but it does it looks highly likely to me that there may
00:44:56
have been another serial offender operating roughly about the same time right every year I was down I was
00:45:04
looking every year in Atlanta they have between 10 to 12 uh child killings down there a lot of those are even domestic
00:45:12
domestic related types of types of cases see at the time though at the time when
00:45:19
this that case was going on all the parents wanted to be on that list to be on the list uh even though some of the
00:45:26
way they were the kids were killed was totally different than the way I believe the ones that we selected have Williams
00:45:32
was responsible but they they wanted to be on the list uh because there was compensation
00:45:38
involved with uh Sammy Davis Jr was down there Frank Sinatra putting on a big uh
00:45:47
presentation singing uh singing and raising money you know they raised millions millions of dollars uh in which
00:45:55
they would then give to the families so everyone one their child even though no one's going to stop them they
00:46:02
compensated but I knew darn well you mentioned Nick those two females like I didn't want Angela Lanier no how she was
00:46:10
killed panties was stuffed in her mouth uh she's it's leadership strangulation totally you know totally uh you know
00:46:18
different and uh and yeah and some of the other ones too had like multiple stab wounds uh the big thing with me was
00:46:25
in that case was to say that the offender would be black statistically it's white but but generally when you
00:46:33
look at crimes you crimes are intra intra-racial now you do you will have an offender cross over and say he was
00:46:43
targeting uh uh black it will go with white but is they have we call a preferential victim preferential age a
00:46:52
preferential uh you know sex or even a look a certain look we had one in the midwest one time was women with red hair
00:47:00
so so this is you know this preference so with with him yeah he was he thought of himself with yeah he was a ham
00:47:08
operator he had a little radio station he can only broadcast a few blocks in his in his neighborhood uh he thought he
00:47:15
was going to develop the next Jackson 5 uh but there was mishandling on that case by the uh even by us it was Miss it
00:47:24
was mishandled uh when he when he was stopped on that bridge uh they could have taken him in they could have taken
00:47:32
taken him in for a question they look in the car they see ligatures in the back of the the back seat of the car here you
00:47:40
know it's like one or two o'clock you know in the morning you have on a car stop you're Splash in the you know in
00:47:47
the water but they didn't do it and then they the interview that took place I was
00:47:52
down there if I didn't get to do the interview uh they were way too hard they were way too aggressive uh you know with
00:47:58
uh you know with them on an interview and just by looking at me like it looked like he wanted to talk and he kind of
00:48:05
hung even hung around the office uh you know afterwards it's just it's just yeah you know the interview and some
00:48:13
people are good at it and some people are are not and when you look at a case say like Georgia is this case or you
00:48:22
look at uh you look at Larry Gene Bell from a book I'm going to kill her calls uh why will he talk I mean well he faces
00:48:30
the death penalty he's a child killer and child killers are low in the totem pole in prison oftentimes you have to
00:48:38
segregate them because until they're out to get them you know so what can I do you know what you know I'm not going to
00:48:44
do an interrogation I'm not going to do an interview not an interview I want to have a conversation a conversation with
00:48:50
him but I have to you have to provide some type of a face saving uh scenario you could give them a way out give them
00:48:57
an excuse an excuse uh whether there's like another side of the personality they have like multiple personality
00:49:04
they're insane or sometimes you have to totally investigators may not like this but you have to almost reject the blame
00:49:10
onto the victim that the victim was a Seducer and you panic you know to get the confession you know you know out of
00:49:18
the person to put put in there doing it that's what you're trying to you're trying to uh you know do so
00:49:26
um so mistakes we may but it's a clear all of those cases uh was wrought in my opinion and a lot of people's opinion
00:49:35
which is so bizarre the psychology of it because you were almost sitting across from the killer at the table you almost
00:49:41
have to empathize with the stress that the the criminal put on themselves by committing these acts and the and the
00:49:48
choices and reactions that they had to make In the Heat of the Moment you almost have to empathize with that where
00:49:55
we have a criminal Like Larry Jean Bell and Wayne Williams who are incapable of empathizing with the people that they
00:50:03
are killing it's it's just a it's a it's a weird bizarre situation yes it's really it's it's you're you're
00:50:11
portraying even uh false and you know empathy uh with us you know whether it's Belle you know
00:50:18
I got involved in the interview I wasn't supposed to if you coach others but they want to
00:50:23
bring them into the room where I might and the agent uh Ron Walker who came with me and it was funny
00:50:31
Donnie Myers they call them solicitors down here not prosecutors and he said you know these boys here you know these
00:50:38
boys are in the FBI and they profiled you Larry to a t a profiled you everything everything about you came
00:50:45
true and Bell's just looking at us you know and then they just leave they leave Belle with us in this room and uh it was
00:50:53
this was not planned they had them for hours and hours that police did trying to interview him they he really never
00:50:59
Fest up to anything and so sat him down on the couch and just coincidentally happened to be wearing it I I could call
00:51:07
like two in the morning we were down there you know they got this guy now and Lara Jean Bell and I was put on his kind
00:51:13
of whitish pants and a white shirt it looked clinical and it turned out to be it was pretty good it was it wasn't done
00:51:18
purposely and so I'm sitting and right in front of him on like a table coffee table and uh I just kind of give him a
00:51:28
historical view of what we do and and what I found in uh in those prison interviews is like uh
00:51:36
people Clarity I spoke to yeah I never use the word murder killed or any that kind of stuff you know to do that but
00:51:42
they I said they tell them it's almost like you know two different sizes of them there's a side that good sign the
00:51:49
bad side and when they perpetrate the crime they know there's they did it but it's not it's like a dream like they're
00:51:55
almost like in a dream-like state and I go like there's long uh siliquity I go on and on on and he's and he's just
00:52:02
looking at me nodding with me and then and I I say when it just started feeling bad about
00:52:09
this case uh Larry I mean and and he said and he's just staring at me he says when I saw him uh the funeral and I saw
00:52:19
that newspaper articles and pictures of the family at the cemetery and uh that's
00:52:26
why I felt bad you see so I mean why then I shift from that is and I get into this you know this side it
00:52:35
could be two size and then it closely would come to confession was the he says all I know is that the the good Larry
00:52:43
Jean Bell couldn't have done something like this but the bad Larry Gene Bell you know could could have done that so
00:52:50
that was as close as we came and then I presented him uh in front of of Mrs Smith and Dawn
00:52:58
I know I coached them a little bit to tell them I mean hear them say I know it's you I know it's you no I recognize
00:53:04
your voice and and um I did did that and he did the same we've seen the good versus the bad good
00:53:13
good large email couldn't have done this but the bad Larry Gene Bell could have and he would go trial the evidence was
00:53:18
just overwhelming um I'm not going to tell the audience of how they got how it got a really good
00:53:24
lead I'll leave that part right part out because it's really interesting how he you know got on to him did you have to
00:53:30
testify against Bell yes yeah I did and uh uh good prosecutors he uh got me on a
00:53:39
stand I talked about the interview you know there wasn't really much she you know he could get me out you know on
00:53:45
there and uh afterwards we uh you know we talked say you're pretty good you're good to understand all this other
00:53:56
you know uh BS stuff but you know he's trying to he was trying to save him from the death penalty and and I knew and I
00:54:03
told the prosecutor the solicitor I I say the only thing they're going to try here is an insanity defense so so what
00:54:11
you're going to see starting day one you're gonna see this guy uh you know flipping out in the courtroom in front
00:54:17
of the jurors and everyone to show that he's that's his only chance I mean we got it his goose is is cooked
00:54:26
uh and that's exactly what he did and then he would take the stand and he stood and he did the same ranty and
00:54:32
Raven you know I'm God and all that well it took the it took jurors I think was like 45 minutes 48 minutes to to convict
00:54:39
him on this case and as well it was another trial and Deborah helmick and the same thing you know over there and
00:54:46
then and uh who sent us got the death penalty the thing that surprised me is he he could have taken uh lethal
00:54:53
injection or the electric chair and he took the electric chair which is such a coward and I think I think in his mind
00:55:00
uh he would not have a 1996 is when he was executed is that he just on the show I think even I keep how tough he is a
00:55:08
tough guy yeah because everyone would have been on him from the prison guards to the inmates being this child killer
00:55:15
that you coward and everything so he could have taken the lethal injection but he he picks the uh he picks the uh
00:55:22
the electric chair which is pretty could be pretty brutal yeah I I had always wondered about that that was kind of a
00:55:28
last-ditch effort to you know prove that he's insane almost right like right the normal person would
00:55:35
pick lethal injection sure obviously the electric chair not to uh to Circle back
00:55:41
too far but why did you think that Wayne Williams would get sick in court or or pretend to be sick okay
00:55:49
what happened was is that Al binder was the prosecutor and excuse me defense attorney and uh Jim kitchens was the
00:55:56
other defense attorney I got to meet meet with him and uh they were shocked to find out that I was in the courtroom
00:56:03
the whole time because they were going to bring a psychologist from Arizona to testify that Williams didn't do it uh it
00:56:10
wasn't responsible they were shocked uh but but anyway so they put Williams on the stand and what they wanted to show
00:56:17
and uh to take to stand on the cross-examination how Al binders nickname is Jaws is that uh look at this
00:56:24
guy look at him he looks like the Pillsbury Doughboy look look at his hands are these are the hands of a
00:56:29
killer of a serial killer look at these These Hands here and so uh I no one was going to buy this at the jurors and I
00:56:40
said his only Ploy here is that is that uh once we cross-examine him uh he's going
00:56:49
to have to claim that you know that he's if there's sick there's some sickness he's going to be a sympathy Ploy and so
00:56:55
I the coaching Jack Mallard the the prosecutor and uh another prosecutor Gordon Miller was there and because they
00:57:04
were shocked when I said one week from today he's going to get sick in the in the courtroom and he did and uh I told
00:57:10
you jack I said Jack because when you get when he takes when he gets the stance your choice here I said the
00:57:16
defense attorney grabbed the Sands you touch his hands and then when you touch his hands say in a real low voice what
00:57:21
was the light Queen what was it like Wayne when you rocked yeah you wrapped your fingers around
00:57:26
Terry Pugh's throat did you panicly did you panic and he says in a weak voice no
00:57:34
and then he realized what he just confessed so then he gets up and he starts screaming and yelling that's one
00:57:40
that's when he does the the pointing uh because the next day in a paper is an artist's conception drawing a artist in
00:57:47
the courtroom had him pointing and saying I know you got this FBI profiler over here and you got to try to get me
00:57:54
to fit it and uh well you're fit perfectly you never should have they never should have let him take the uh
00:58:01
you know take the stand you know at all I got to meet the prosecutors and Mary welcome was one of the excuse me the
00:58:06
defense attorneys was there was three of them there and I was hearing fiber evidence that but it was such unique
00:58:12
unique uh fiber evidence and the big expert for the bureau is a guy agent by Hal Deadman uh he testified plus the gbi
00:58:22
but they all he found it was interesting they only found the evidence on the cases that myself and Roy
00:58:28
Hazelwood from the unit we thought were related these uh these cases and that was what's interesting is that's
00:58:36
what the lab only founded on those particular uh cases you know not these other ones early in your career you
00:58:42
spent a lot of time interviewing serial killers behind you know Prison Walls and one thing that
00:58:50
I found this is just a a personal question here um and I've I've studied your career
00:58:57
throughout through your books um over the years and you know Kemper was always somebody that you had said
00:59:05
was one of the more interesting interviews because he was able to articulate what he did why he did and he
00:59:11
was willing to speak about it now in kemper's case he is one of these rare specimens that
00:59:21
he you know he kills once he gets out uh when he gets into his early 20s but he was already locked up at age 15 for
00:59:28
killing his grandparents I wondered had you and uh Bob Ressler ever been in a situation where you were interviewing a
00:59:36
juvenile serial murderer not after only after uh yeah after they were convicted a Monty
00:59:43
Russell out of uh Alex Alexandra who killed uh sex workers and he was only he was he was seeing a psychologist he was
00:59:51
only like in his teens and uh the psychologist was giving him a true bill of health this is a great guy I kind of
00:59:57
like Kemper and meanwhile the psychiatrists didn't realize this guy was killing doing all these killings
01:00:03
around the Alexandria Virginia uh Virginia you know area I have gone before parole boards and in fact I met
01:00:11
just yesterday with a parole board head uh who did the book The Killer across the table a couple of books back and and
01:00:20
Joseph McGowan was one of the ones who killed a he was began was a school teacher who kills a a brownie seven
01:00:29
years of age going house to house selling cookies and on this particular day she was collecting money and knocks
01:00:35
on this guy McGowan's door and I they picked me because he's he got to do the interview they heard me doing like a
01:00:43
talk show on a radio but kind of like today we have podcasts and and uh and he said we got to get this guy down here to
01:00:51
yeah this guy uh McGowan's getting ready to get out of uh you know out of prison
01:00:55
he served 30 years that's the maximum sentence so they they uh bring me to uh uh to the prison up in New Jersey which
01:01:05
is which very intimidating intimidating uh prison to begin with and and they put me in a room I tell them
01:01:12
what I want how I want the room the furniture and everything they introduced me to him and so I I had to go now on a
01:01:19
fishing and a hunt here to try to let's see what this guy is difficult if he's changed has he been you know
01:01:25
rehabilitated or what's his thinking process like so I was in with him say six hours
01:01:30
or so and then and never using always positive when you get out where are you going when you get out and he says New
01:01:39
York and I said New York I said man I said I was raised in New York as a kid I said it's expensive it's expensive it's
01:01:46
hell on it and he tells me about uh he's got a x-con up there and get a job you know working working there and then I
01:01:54
kind of segue into the crimes I said what happened the day when you heard the knock on the screen door uh and uh and
01:02:03
it was Joan D'Alessandro the seven-year-old girl and uh they said my mother was away at work and this guy's
01:02:11
like 27 at the time and my grandmother's upstairs sleeping and he lives in a bi-level house down in the basement part
01:02:18
so is better he says when I looked up I knew I was going to kill her John I knew
01:02:23
I was going to kill her and and so he goes through all the the details of of what he does you know to this child what
01:02:31
was so interesting in fact I was talking to this parole board head who brought me
01:02:35
in on a case back then just yesterday was that I wish it was a video could could watch this uh this this play
01:02:43
between us because he all of a sudden what you're trying to do is you're trying to turn on that CD in their brain
01:02:49
and bring them back to the crime no matter who it is or Charles Manson whatever whoever you're talking David
01:02:55
Berk was to get him back there and it takes a while and and so he starts staring off and it was freezing in this
01:03:04
cell it was cold he is sweating he's sweating profusely and it and his chest muscles and his pecs are trembling as
01:03:14
he's telling me everything that he's done all the specifics of of this crime uh and and he would turn around with
01:03:22
soil to make sure the guards weren't weren't uh watching uh we're listening in on this he trusted me that that well
01:03:30
as a matter of fact they would intercept the letter uh before it was sent out to
01:03:36
a woman that he was communicating with and he mentions me in the letter of saying you know I was going to be about
01:03:41
this guy John Douglas the FBI and his Naval science profiling stuff and he said it wasn't until I was well into
01:03:48
this interview I realized he wasn't taking notes and he didn't have any notes in front of him he had no papers
01:03:54
but he knew my case backwards and forwards you know everything about him and see that so and so that's one of the
01:04:02
other things I learned about doing the interviews you must maintain contact the eye contact you deal with paranoid
01:04:09
people they don't trust anybody particularly now that they're in prison what are you doing what do you have the
01:04:14
audience you know they surely like in mind Hunter the audio tape in the beginning the tape recording we used it
01:04:20
once we use it for uh uh for uh what do you call it what's again I think I just mentioned uh a little while ago yeah
01:04:28
Camp I'm sorry you mentioned we use it for camper uh but but they're all you know who's gonna listen to this the
01:04:35
warden going to hear this so just discard same thing you think I know who's who's going to see these see these
01:04:41
uh notes here and so this guy I mean when I go back to McGowan tells me everything including I said how are you
01:04:49
going to live when you get out go in New York but I got money John you got money
01:04:53
what am I making a license placement I have six hundred thousand dollars and he's always looking back to see if the
01:04:59
guards are listening and how'd you get that so when my mother died I got insurance money my grandmother sale of
01:05:05
the house insurance money and so I said where is the money I put the money out of state why don't you put the money out
01:05:13
of state so the family can't get any any of the money all right so oh man you'll
01:05:17
do great then 600 Grand yeah you'll you'll be fine when you get to New York well the next day I go before the parole
01:05:25
board and uh and I started telling telling them what happened and how this interview went down they're shocked I'm
01:05:34
talking about psychologists psychiatrists court appointed uh people who sit on the parole board and a lot of
01:05:40
them aren't it's done in every state have no uh criminal background and investigative backgrounds at all and and
01:05:48
they're shocked I'm able to get this and he says and he referred him as a pedophile and I said wait no he's not a
01:05:54
pedophile when I killed a seven-year-old that on that particular day a parole board a 70 year old lady could have
01:06:02
knocked on that door and she would have died he was going to kill somebody and I
01:06:07
gave him different reasons what was going on in his life you know at that time he's no pedophile he's a killer and
01:06:13
you let him out of prison and what's going to happen is that you have not rehabilitated him he was never
01:06:19
habilitated to begin with uh yeah and so you didn't do anything he didn't change
01:06:25
it anything and all you did was put the physical body on ice for a period of 30 years but you didn't change what's up in
01:06:31
his brain I didn't you didn't change any of that the fantasies because when he was telling me about the crime he was
01:06:38
right down to the nitty-gritty specifics you know of the crime and no remorse at
01:06:43
all not not a shred of remorse came from this guy so he'll go down go up to New York and things don't go well
01:06:51
um don't believe it you think that's another theory that this burnout with these guys there's no burnout because
01:06:56
this is the crimes of anger and crimes of power and so you know that's what you have to look forward to if you you
01:07:02
release this guy so they end up giving him a hit they gave him on top of that he gave a 30-year hit and of course he
01:07:08
appeals appeals appeals but he just died he died I think just last year you know
01:07:12
he died thank goodness they got rid of rid of him when a killer calls a haunting story of murder criminal
01:07:19
profiling and Justice in a small town Mr Douglas I love the new book I know the listeners are going to love it as well
01:07:25
anything else any final words about this book this project before we wrap up no I
01:07:31
think it's it's good for the um people are interested in profiling and how the specifics of how you prepare and things
01:07:38
she you can do and can't do you know I try to do with all of the books in the next book whatever we select we'll do it
01:07:45
with that one but so far it's got some very very good reviews I think your listeners will enjoy it I really
01:07:51
appreciate Nick you having me on here too really growing over the years as well as you have a tremendous uh
01:07:58
following well thank you so much for stopping by and seeing us again and I hope that you will come by and see us
01:08:04
again on the next project oh I will thank you please invite me wonderful thank you Mr Douglas
01:08:10
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