00:00:23
How was your weekend, Captain? It was good. Good. I got to see Kristalia and Mike Lanoce.
00:00:31
Mhm. It's always good to see them. Very good comedians. I didn't get to go. I was busy with some other things, but
00:00:37
uh I was excited that you had asked me to join you. Uh sorry that I couldn't. I know that they always put on a good
00:00:45
show. The The time that I saw them before with you, it was one of those side-splitting,
00:00:51
you know, you even cry once or twice because you're laughing so incredibly hard. They put on a fantastic show, so.
00:00:59
Well, Mike Lanoce has um dick towels that that are for sale. Mhm. And he just came out with the new
00:01:05
version, the magnum dick towel, so those are available for sale now. Okay. If anybody's interested.
00:01:14
If anybody's interested in uh purchasing one of those. Right. Good thing he got the big one
00:01:19
skull. Yeah. He won't be using one, but Yeah. Yeah, so that was fun. And then uh look
00:01:27
at you know, looking forward to part four. Even though uh Rabia, she released a lot
00:01:34
of the information, they kept on talking about that there was a huge bombshell that was going to be dropped.
00:01:41
And so I guess the story goes that somebody got a hold of this. I believe it was like the Sun,
00:01:49
the Baltimore Sun or something got a hold of the information that they're going to be releasing and was kind of
00:01:55
unaware whether it's going to be on episode 3 or episode 4. Mhm. I thought there was some pretty big
00:02:01
bombshells on episode 3, but then I was told that a lot of that stuff was gone over on Undisclosed. So, I didn't listen
00:02:09
to every episode of the Undisclosed podcast. So, I didn't know some of that. So, I thought that was a pretty big
00:02:15
bombshell. And so, I believe it was Thursday or Friday Rabia released some of the DNA
00:02:20
testing that they then released on episode 4. And I thought uh episode 4 was pretty powerful. And
00:02:28
then I think overall uh just looking at the documentary as a whole it was very good. I mean, it could have
00:02:35
been eight parts. They could have went into a lot more detail, but it was almost
00:02:40
a continuation of Serial and a continuation of a lot of the coverage that has already been done. Mhm. So,
00:02:47
it's almost like they had the the viewer uh almost they started with the idea, we're
00:02:53
going to assume that these viewers know a little bit about the case already. Mhm.
00:02:58
But it's very good. And if you haven't watched it, spoiler alert, but also check it out. I think it was
00:03:04
really good. Yeah, I thought the four-part series was good. Um my general thought though was it was
00:03:12
kind of like reading a book for the second time or watching a movie for the second time almost because like you
00:03:18
said, most of the stuff you know about it going into it. Uh and so, for me a lot of it was just putting some visuals
00:03:27
to stuff I had already read or heard. Uh but yeah. Yeah, Correct. Yeah. I I did think it was
00:03:37
good. The um one thing that I found incredibly interesting that I did not know was the idea that Adnan was eventually
00:03:47
offered some kind of deal. Right. And So, so basically what the deal was was that he would plead guilty
00:03:56
Mhm. and then he had to spend another four years in in prison. Now, you can look at this deal in two
00:04:03
ways. One, he'd have to admit that he's guilty. It's not an Alford plea. And that's kind of a whole separate
00:04:10
thing and a lot of people know about that, but you have to say that you're guilty of a
00:04:15
crime. Mhm. With the Alford plea you're basically pleading guilty, but with the idea that
00:04:23
you're innocent, but that the state has enough evidence to possibly convict you.
00:04:28
And so you're basically admitting to that they have almost or they you're admitting to the fact that they have
00:04:34
enough evidence to convict you. Right. So, this one's different because um This is a straight-up guilty.
00:04:41
Yeah, and then he talked about how that would be lying to his, you know, if he said that he did it, you know, then that
00:04:47
would mean that he was lying to his family, lying to Sarah Kenick, lying to all these other people.
00:04:53
And uh he didn't want to do that. But I also think it's also tricky, too, because
00:04:59
at the time of their appeals, they were winning the appeals. Mhm. So, after you win a couple,
00:05:07
you know, do you take your chances? And then after his conviction is then um you know,
00:05:15
the conviction was overturned and then they overturned that on appeal. Mhm. So, they went from going, "Well, he's
00:05:21
guilty." to "Well, now he's innocent until proven guilty. Oh, whoops, no, no. He's back to guilty again."
00:05:27
Mhm. So, I wonder if he would change his mind about taking that deal after that conviction came down because
00:05:35
after that appeal was revoked, basically, a new trial, you're looking at maybe two to four years before anything will
00:05:44
happen with this case. Mhm. Yeah, it's a weird thing, man, because trying to put myself in his shoes is
00:05:52
impossible to do for many reasons. One, he's been in prison for what, almost 20 years?
00:05:58
Well, on his feet or in his shoes. Well, and so one, I wouldn't know what it's like to
00:06:04
be in prison for almost 20 years, but two, Right. he knows 100% if he's guilty or
00:06:10
innocent. Right. I still don't know 100% either way. And as someone who has probably
00:06:18
questioned his innocence more than I've questioned his guilt, if that makes sense, meaning I I lean
00:06:24
toward the side of if I had a if I had to divide it up into 100, I would say 51 52% of me feels like
00:06:33
he's guilty. And so therefore, it's one of those weird things that I I kind of felt like
00:06:41
maybe I'm putting too much weight into this, but it almost feels to me like someone
00:06:47
who was guilty, I think would take that deal before someone who was innocent. And him not taking the taking that
00:06:55
kind of way out or easier way out, I mean, I thought it was kind of it's kind of powerful stuff. Even even though
00:07:02
it doesn't convince me one way or the other, but it does make me contemplate the
00:07:08
whole thing a little differently. Well, I think, personally, that I think if you went into this
00:07:15
four-part series and you looked at it as, you know, 50% guilty, 50% innocent, you should
00:07:21
be walking away. I think they showed enough evidence. And And you really have to go through
00:07:28
the detailed reports of the DNA testing that they did. What's kind of little weird to me is
00:07:37
that the testing that they did do, uh they talk about the uh defense attorney, Mhm. how they went over the pieces that
00:07:44
they wanted tested, and some of the stuff they didn't have tested. And that kind of seems a little fishy to me.
00:07:51
Like, why, you know, why not just have it all tested? But, you know, so if she did scrape somebody, like the
00:08:00
fingernail um, DNA that they had, if she did scratch somebody, it was not Adnan.
00:08:07
So, there's that, which I think is pretty big. And I think the other thing um, that was
00:08:15
pretty big was that there was no DNA of him found on her. Now, we know that Jay claimed that he's wearing gloves,
00:08:24
but I would think in the struggle of killing somebody, which the way the cops said it was done
00:08:32
was inside her car, probably they're guessing that he used his hands. And if it was done in that manner and
00:08:41
such a small confined area, if she fought back any, which you would assume that she would,
00:08:49
that there would be some kind of DNA of his left on hers. And there's there's no evidence of that.
00:08:57
So, I think that's pretty big, and I think when you come out of this, if you're not leaning more, you know,
00:09:03
60/40 that he's innocent, I think it's just not examining the the information enough.
00:09:11
Well, and I I still I still stand by the way that I felt before watching the four-part series, but I also want to
00:09:19
throw in there the other way that I feel is while I lean towards guilt for Adnan,
00:09:29
even with just Serial and Undisclosed and anything that that has come about since then, including the four-part
00:09:36
series on HBO. I've always kind of felt like this thing should go to trial again. I I
00:09:44
feel that there's enough reasonable doubt that that this thing needs to be examined
00:09:51
again and and hashed over again. Well, you basically have no physical evidence and your whole trial is based
00:09:58
off of guy Jay Wilds, which by all of his friends' accounts, he's a liar. So, just that alone, when that's all you
00:10:08
have, and you can poke holes in the story, and then if you ask Jay Wild, "Well, what
00:10:14
about this or what about that?" He'll go, "Well, the Best Buy scenario, that was
00:10:19
that was come up by the cops. Mhm. You know, the timeline, we know for a fact was altered because of the cops.
00:10:27
So, we have a situation where you have a guy, Jay Wilds, liar. On top of that, the cops are making him lie.
00:10:35
And that is what convicts somebody, and that is absolutely ridiculous and definitely deserves a fair trial.
00:10:43
Even if you think he's 100% guilty, if you told me he doesn't deserve a fair trial, I'd say, "You're a moron."
00:10:51
Right. You know, because it's uh it Like I said, if if there was more to convict him on other than just
00:10:58
somebody's story, and then, you know, I thought it was interesting, too, cuz in part four, they
00:11:04
said, you know, we got a hold of we got a hold of Jay Wilds. And Jay started saying, "Well, look,
00:11:11
what happened was that I think he said it was like 10 lb to 15 lb of marijuana Mhm.
00:11:20
that Adnan wanted Jay to get. So, Jay got that. And then, once he got that that that amount of
00:11:30
weed, Adnan basically said like, "Look, I'll turn you in if you don't help me bury
00:11:36
this body." Right. And I think that's just a loaded [ __ ] story. I mean, you're going to tell me that you had
00:11:43
plans to take his car because he he also says, "We planned this. I was going to take
00:11:50
his car and tell take his cell phone and he was going to call me." So, from the that time that you had the car and the
00:11:58
cell phone, which we have a wreck like we have knowledge of where you were at that day,
00:12:04
you're going to tell me that you got 10 to 15 lb of marijuana and you have no money anyways.
00:12:11
And then somehow that Adnan's going to turn that against you? I mean, it it it the story doesn't make
00:12:18
much sense at all. And the fact that it's ever-changing. I mean, this new trial uh should be
00:12:27
happening right away. Well, and one thing that I've always wondered about as far as Jay's
00:12:32
involvement goes is is it seems to me like if Adnan was planning on killing Hae Min Lee, that it would have been
00:12:40
easier to to chance getting away with it if he would not have involved anybody else.
00:12:48
Right. And so, it always seems weird to me when we have Jay saying, "Well, not only did
00:12:52
he involve me, but it to the point where he's threatening things against me if I
00:12:57
don't help him." And you know, so where I've always called that that part of the story into
00:13:02
question because I really believe that it would have been easier for Adnan to possibly get away with this
00:13:09
if nobody else were involved. But then I have to remind myself, "Well, if Adnan did do it, he's 17 at
00:13:15
the time and some of the things some of the actions some of the plans involved may not make sense to us as
00:13:22
adults or us as people that have had time to think about this scenario so where he may not have put so much
00:13:30
thought into it or good thought into it before this went down. Well, I think this also proves that one,
00:13:38
where's his motivation? Where's motive Where's Adnan's motivation? I think they did they don't do a good
00:13:45
job of proving what that motivation is other than a jealous ex-boyfriend. Hmm, that's weird. We have
00:13:52
a lady coming forward that's came forward multiple times that puts him in the library. So there goes an alibi
00:13:58
during the the time period that the cops claim that she's being murdered. So that
00:14:02
makes it makes zero sense. And then we have the timeline of that day which we know is fabricated by the police. So
00:14:09
then you have to start assuming what else is fabricated by the police. And one of the things that they pointed out
00:14:16
was the amount of debris that was on those car tires should not have been there based on the weather
00:14:24
that this car was you know, the expert basically said, "Look, if they had a bet, it looked like the
00:14:30
car had recently been moved there." Mhm. And we also had a neighbor in that area
00:14:35
that said, "Look, if this car was there for a long time, we would have known." Mhm.
00:14:40
And they didn't they didn't remember a car being there. So we have that. Then on top of that, one of the
00:14:45
Well, not only known, but they they state that their general reaction to seeing a car there for more than a week
00:14:52
or two would be to call it in to the authorities to have it towed away. Right. And some of the things they're
00:14:58
not mentioning is that license plate was run run a couple times during the time that they claim that the
00:15:05
car was missing. Well, why would it why would that be run by the cops? Why would that license
00:15:11
plate be run by the cops if they didn't see the vehicle somewhere Mhm. and and thought it was suspicious. So
00:15:19
they didn't bring that up and they also didn't bring up the track coach, even though the track coach can't say with
00:15:25
100% certainty that Adnan was there because he didn't take attendance. He said, "Look, if Adnan wasn't there, it
00:15:32
would have threw up red flags." So, I think that, but I also think they pointed pointed out a couple really
00:15:39
interesting things. One, Seller, the guy that found her, how close his house is to the high
00:15:47
school. Mhm. Very close. The fact that he has Now, here's what's strange though to me.
00:15:57
If he took her back to his house, this guy has been known to actually like flash himself, basically, right?
00:16:04
Mhm. I think he's been arrested on it. So, he bring, you know, let's say he gets, hey,
00:16:11
somehow, brings it brings her back to his house. The validity when you look at those
00:16:20
weird diamond shapes, which are a lot smaller than I thought they were. Mhm. Um but to see these weird diamond
00:16:28
shapes, one I always wondered if that had something to do with she had a bag that
00:16:34
held balls in it, like a ball bag, in her trunk. I always wondered if those diamond shapes came from that, but they
00:16:42
looked very solid and not like now, you know, there would be a more of an outline than
00:16:48
a solid block shape. Mhm. So, the fact that these investigators, now that was another thing that wasn't
00:16:55
clear in the documentary. I think one of the things that they did a bad job was they have two guys that are
00:17:02
investigating the case. Yeah, two private investigators that that helped out. And it just didn't seem that clear cuz
00:17:08
they didn't keep reintroducing what they were finding. And they said, "Look, here's a piece of equipment that this
00:17:15
guy would be known to use. And look, that's a connection. He's the guy that found her. He found her 40
00:17:22
like something like 40 yards away from the road. Mhm. This is a far away. Like why are you
00:17:28
going so far into the woods to take a leak? It didn't make a lot of sense, but what
00:17:33
also doesn't make a lot of sense though is his motivation would be what? Probably sexual.
00:17:39
And it looks based off the DNA that there wasn't a sexual assault. Mhm. So was it a a sexual assault attempt and
00:17:46
he just botched it and this this is the result? Um you know, a possibility. And then we have Don where they, you
00:17:56
know, go over his alibi. And I don't give a [ __ ] about Don, Donnie. Don't give a [ __ ] about Donnie.
00:18:07
Because I don't give a [ __ ] about his alibi cuz one they say, "Look, it it'd be weird to
00:18:12
have two texts at that time." So look, if your mom is involved or your mom's girlfriend or whoever else is
00:18:21
involved in your work, to me your mother or a family member giving you your alibi to me is no alibi.
00:18:31
Well, possibly giving. Providing. That we can't prove that that's how Right. He has an
00:18:37
But I'm saying that there could be involvement, so I'm going to say no alibi, right? So fine, no alibi. But
00:18:45
or tell me there's an alibi. Tell me that it that maybe it works out on some level.
00:18:52
I will never get over the fact that your girlfriend's missing and you don't try to make contact.
00:18:59
Mhm. I understand you know, for a long time I thought, "Well, it's kind of strange that Adnan
00:19:07
never contacted Hae." Contacts her the night before, says, "I got a cell phone. Hey girl, got my cell phone, got my
00:19:15
shitty ass mustache. Looks like I just drank a bunch of chocolate milk. I'm I'm sorry, but Adnan's mustache in
00:19:23
high school was so bad. Uh but anyways, so he calls Hae the night before. I always thought
00:19:34
why didn't Adnan try to contact her? Page her or something. I understand not calling the house,
00:19:42
but she has a pager. Like and now he says, "I don't remember if I called her." Well, I think we could find out through
00:19:50
the call log if he did or not, like his call log. But let's just assume he never called
00:19:55
her. Little fishy. Right. You know, stinks a little bit. But what stinks more? The ex-boyfriend
00:20:06
that's friends with her, not contacting her when he's also in contact with all of her friends,
00:20:13
and all the friends are updating each other? Is That's not as fishy as her boyfriend
00:20:22
not contacting her, not reaching out once, not going, "You know, I might want to just call her pager, see
00:20:29
what's up." I mean, look at the Shafer case. Boy goes missing, girlfriend calls the
00:20:35
cell phone almost every day. Right. It's going straight to voicemail. She keeps calling.
00:20:43
So, can't pick up the phone, Donnie? I mean, I wish I wish in this docu-series they
00:20:50
would have dove into that a little bit more. So that bothered me. So we got the car
00:20:56
being moved. I I think there was proof of that. I think that's shady. I think the cops made that
00:21:01
up. Well, we have we have a quote-unquote expert who says I if I had to bet on it, I I believe the
00:21:12
car was moved. Right. We we don't know for certain that it was moved. Right, but if you look at that picture
00:21:17
and you see all that debris on those tires and then you look at the other vehicles around it without the debris on
00:21:23
the tires, you just go, "Uh this doesn't line up. Something's wrong here." So, again,
00:21:30
uh gut feeling is it's moved. But the I think the biggest thing for me, I mean, again, this this 10-lb of weed story
00:21:39
makes zero sense. And this is another just Jay Wilds is [ __ ] That dude is [ __ ]
00:21:47
You know, and all the crimes that, you know, he's probably ratted on everybody. So, I just want to I I want to end my
00:21:55
thoughts on on a couple things. Well, I want to couple more things I want to go over.
00:22:01
The The fingerprint on the rear view mirror. Mhm. I think that is huge. Now, if we had some DNA
00:22:12
and we do have DNA, but what I'm saying is if we had some DNA code and that I could get DNA
00:22:21
from Sellers or I can get DNA from Donny, I'm testing the DNA myself. I am finding the match.
00:22:29
I am going to trial. I am screaming at the rooftops. Guess what? We got a DNA match and we found it and this is who it
00:22:38
is. Mhm. That's what I'd be trying to do. I'd be going to complete offensive here and you
00:22:45
have to do something that shakes up the system so much to say, "We figured this out cuz you were too
00:22:50
lazy to [ __ ] do it." So, I think that's that's one. But then the other thing is that we have that
00:22:56
fingerprint. Now, I know it's Look, it's a lot easier to follow somebody around and wait for
00:23:01
them to drop a cup or put out a cigarette or whatever. But that fingerprint, I think matters
00:23:08
because if that's Sellers' fingerprint, then Sellers guilty. Right. Lock him up. If that's If that's Donny's
00:23:18
fingerprint, now I think you can argue that away a little bit. But it doesn't match Adnan and it
00:23:23
doesn't match Jay. Well, in the the reason why you could possibly explain it away if it were
00:23:30
Donny's is that Sellers has to have been in her vehicle at any time ever. Right.
00:23:39
So, where you have Donny, where you could you could someone could present the argument, yeah, I I drove her car
00:23:45
once or I was in the car multiple times for this reason or that reason. The The thing that I think is tricky here with
00:23:53
the DNA and with the fingerprints and I think they could have been Well, Well, I know they could have been, but
00:24:00
furthermore, I think they should have been a little more clear during that conversation because when you watch that
00:24:06
part, it's not so much like them listing hardcore facts for you. It's three guys
00:24:11
having a conversation. And you're listening in on it and they're like, okay, well, there's a
00:24:16
fingerprint and then there's this DNA and basically they're going through and saying, okay, well, the DNA doesn't
00:24:22
match anybody in the system. Well, the fingerprint doesn't match anybody in the system.
00:24:28
The tricky thing with that fingerprint in regards to Is it Seller or Sellers? Sorry.
00:24:33
I think it's Sellers. Okay. I'm not 100% sure on that, but The tricky thing in regards to it
00:24:40
possibly the fingerprint possibly belonging to Sellers is when they say the fingerprint's not
00:24:48
found in the system, I have to believe that his fingerprints are probably in that system.
00:24:54
Because we know he's been convicted of of offenses before. And typically that would be
00:25:02
standard standard protocol. I think they explain that away somehow. That his fingerprints are not in the
00:25:10
system? Yeah. I The way that I took it is they were kind of guessing as to whose
00:25:17
DNA and fingerprints would be in the system or not. Right. seem It wasn't like somebody looking
00:25:23
saying, "Well, I looked up this individual and his fingerprints are in the system."
00:25:27
Well, what what what they did tell us was that they went back and had the cops clear all the cops basically to say,
00:25:34
"Well, we know that fingerprint is not any of the cops or detectives that worked that case."
00:25:40
Mhm. So, they did that, but I want to say that there was a reason um that Sellers' fingerprints wouldn't be
00:25:48
in the system. They know Don's isn't, you know, for sure, you know. Well, well, well, they don't know that
00:25:54
his are not. They just say, "We don't believe his Right. fingerprints would And then see, that's
00:25:59
what I'm saying is that that's where they that conversation was one of the most in- interesting conversations I
00:26:06
thought throughout the whole four-part series. Yeah, and it's a little gray and it
00:26:10
could have been clearer. they should have not just been clear, I think they they
00:26:15
they should have figured out who is in the system and who is not. And that could have really helped some
00:26:22
things along there because even with Adnan's, you know, like when you say that the DNA doesn't match
00:26:29
Adnan's, there's a good chance that Adnan's DNA is in that system because of of what he was later convicted of.
00:26:36
So, I really question. I think that Sellers' fingerprints would be in the system if,
00:26:44
you know, if if I'm going to sound like the guy that the the grass expert, let's
00:26:48
call him that, the the uh grass expert that they spoke to. Right. I'm going to say that if I have to
00:26:55
place a wager on it, I would go to the side of betting that Sellers fingerprints are in the system.
00:27:02
Yeah, and I could you know, look, who knows what was edited out. I I I still believe that they had a reason that
00:27:09
there was I can't remember off the top of my head, but it's almost like here's our reason why we don't think
00:27:15
he's in the system. I don't know if it was a time period or or what. But yeah, I think to me it's going,
00:27:24
"Hey, let's connect the DNA." And also just the amount of stuff that was left at the
00:27:30
scene. Like it was kind of weird cuz if you looked at like the test that they did,
00:27:36
you know, some of the stuff like instantly like you can go, "What?" You mean the burial site?
00:27:42
Yeah, but like what's kind of convoluted about all that stuff is you look at it on the roadside and you go, "Oh well, on
00:27:49
the roadside they found a rolled-up condom." And you go, "Oh well, [ __ ] that must be
00:27:54
something." But then you start figuring out that I believe that condom was roughly about 140 yards away.
00:28:00
Mhm. So, pretty far. But we're talking inches away from the body where there's ropes.
00:28:07
Right. And one of the things that I didn't get get clear on in his lawyer his lawyer
00:28:14
stated, "Well, on one of those ropes or wires or whatever you want to call it, there was
00:28:19
some DNA that didn't match Adnan." Mhm. But what they didn't tell you, ready for
00:28:26
this? Mhm. Ready for this [ __ ] Unknown female. What? What? Yeah. All I'm saying is if it had something to
00:28:41
do, which we we don't know that it even had anything to do with the the the or Hae
00:28:45
Min Lee or any you know, anything connected to the case. Right. It could be from anybody, really.
00:28:53
Mhm. It could be from a little kid just playing around, dropped it. But it's kind of suspicious to me. But
00:29:00
also, why would you why would you drop the this other stuff if you used a cord or whatever to for the
00:29:07
strangulation? Why? Why would you leave this stuff by the body? Mhm. Doesn't make a lot of sense. But again,
00:29:14
if you're 17 year old and you did it, maybe you would. Or maybe you're if you weren't
00:29:19
experienced, you were just a known, you know, I'll show you mine. And then you run and call the cops on
00:29:27
me. If you're that kind of dude, then maybe you're not equipped to get rid of the body, you're not equipped
00:29:33
to get rid of the evidence. But again, we don't know if that's involved or not. But I But I want to
00:29:40
bring up something that I noticed on the last episode. Episode 3. And then I didn't want to bring it up
00:29:50
because I don't think it's fair to just like toss in like a a theory. But when you have this piece of
00:29:57
evidence, possibly a piece of evidence, possibly something that has nothing to do with the case.
00:30:03
Thought it was really strange that when you watch Jay Wilds' trial and when they
00:30:07
actually sentenced him, that there's nobody on his side. There's nobody there to watch him get
00:30:15
sentenced. Except for one person. And that person was Stephanie, his girlfriend at the time.
00:30:25
So, I I found that odd, but I don't believe she was his girlfriend at the time of his sentencing.
00:30:32
Mhm. So, I don't understand one, I don't understand um somebody that beautiful dating somebody
00:30:40
so personally ugly and physically ugly as as Jay Wilds, but you know, your friends are you're in
00:30:51
circles with Adnan, you're in circles with Hae Min Lee. This Jay Wilds is 19, he's a little bit
00:30:58
of an outsider, he's also a known drug, you know, drug dealer, if you want to call him
00:31:06
that. And I I just did I don't understand why she was there. Now, I could be wrong, maybe
00:31:13
they were still dating. And if they were still dating, of course she's there for that.
00:31:18
But it's just kind of odd to me that she was there. Mhm. And I don't think you know, and and then the other thing
00:31:28
too that which just popped up into my brain is you have a guy that worked with Donny.
00:31:35
Back to Donny. But you have a guy that worked with Donny that says, "Look, he had scrape
00:31:40
marks on his arms." And and to me to me that encapsulates the whole thing. We have a missing girl. She's missing
00:31:52
for 3 weeks. We find her. We have a decent lead, but these detectives were notorious for
00:32:00
taking wit- witnesses, threatening them, pushing them to testify. I think that's what happened here. We
00:32:08
have cops that changed the story. We have evidence that wasn't checked. We have suspects that weren't checked.
00:32:16
They It's like they had a direct line to Adnan. They pursued that, and they didn't pursue
00:32:23
anything else. Mhm. And that becomes very difficult because if it's somebody's freedom that's on the
00:32:30
line, you can't go back and reinvestigate 20 years ago. You can't go back to see if Donny had
00:32:38
scrapes on his arms. But I bet you this. I bet money people were watching this that are
00:32:45
involved and they're sweating bullets cuz their day is coming. And I think what's going to happen, my
00:32:55
gut feeling and I've never really gone, you know, you know, innocent or guilty. I don't
00:33:01
like talking about that. I kind of like you, it's the idea of this guy deserves a free trial.
00:33:07
Mhm. Or a new trial, free trial. Free trial. He deserves a new trial. Here's your free trial and here's the
00:33:13
one you have to pay for. You have to pay Buy one get one free trial. But I also think it's telling and I I I
00:33:20
I agree with you. I mean, I think it's telling hey, if I'm guilty and I did this,
00:33:27
I have to admit to it, I get out in 4 years. That's such a weird thing though, man,
00:33:33
cuz like taking it. Yeah, that's what that's the route that I think that most people would go if
00:33:38
they're guilty. If they're get because and then think about this, too. You probably have
00:33:45
we've seen this with other cases. I've I don't know this to be true with this case, but I believe it's probably
00:33:51
occurred. We've seen in other cases where there's an individual behind bars for a very
00:33:57
long time and when in regards to Adnan, you're talking about half his life. Where family members have come to that
00:34:05
person and said, "Look, even if you didn't do it, just take the deal, man. We we will understand. Everybody will
00:34:12
understand. We all have your back. You should just take take the deal and let's be done with this. Let's move on."
00:34:18
Right, but the what's great is his mother is a woman of principle. Mhm. I like his family. Like that was
00:34:25
one thing that was neat about the four-part series was getting to see and feeling like you're getting to know his
00:34:30
family and I think his his brother's name is don't slap me if I get this wrong but I
00:34:35
think his brother's name is Yusef. I believe so. And I tell you what, I like the cut of
00:34:41
his jib. That the way that Yusef talks about his brother and the way that he cares for his parents and seems to look
00:34:49
after them. I that could be that should be um textbook for all of us out there as our
00:34:56
parents get older to take care of them. Well, yeah, I applaud his brother and I applaud his cousin
00:35:03
Rabia. I I applaud his mother and then I feel really bad. I I do feel bad for them but I feel awful for his dad
00:35:13
because this has just wrecked somebody and when everybody sits there and screams the
00:35:20
real victim is Hae. Well, yeah, no [ __ ] Sherlock. That's the real victim. But if
00:35:27
this guy has done 20 years for something he didn't do, he's also a victim and his
00:35:32
family is a victim and guess what? Hae is still a victim because there's nobody that we don't have the right person and
00:35:39
so she's still a victim and her family's still a victim. And the the problem with
00:35:44
some of these family members is they go, well, we think that they got the right guy. Well, you don't know and have you
00:35:50
looked at the freaking evidence because if I'm looking at this evidence and somebody murdered my daughter even, I'd
00:35:56
go, I'm looking at this evidence I'm going I don't know if this is the right guy and we offered him a deal and he
00:36:02
won't even take the deal to get out of jail in four years. We need to I would be pushing not so
00:36:09
much to keep him in jail but pushing for them to do a reinvestigate it. Keep him
00:36:15
in jail and reinvestigate it. Like let's get to the bottom of this and I think this um I mean it's slimy to me
00:36:23
that you'd going to take on a case and also run for office at the same time, the DA.
00:36:30
It's slimy. And I also think this deal, because Adnan's attorney sits there and says, "Well, man, 4 years, that's weird.
00:36:39
I wonder if his term's up." And then he goes, "Nah, it probably doesn't have anything to do with that, because it's
00:36:44
so messed up if it does." But guess what? It probably does. Cuz that's how bad these people are.
00:36:53
That's how corrupt these people are. And I mean, to me it just makes you know, this is not the America I want
00:37:02
to live in, you know? I I'm proud of our country, I'm proud of all these things,
00:37:07
but like this ain't right, you know? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at this evidence and just go, "Hey,
00:37:16
we we need to dive into this more, you know? Look, have a new trial. Have a free trial.
00:37:24
Mhm. Or have a have a trial that you charge him for. I don't know. It's just there's
00:37:32
there's a lot of victims in here, especially if he is not guilty. And I just think
00:37:39
the more evidence they, you know, yes, it's 20 years, but the more and more evidence that they
00:37:45
overturn, I mean every stone that they don't leave unturned, right? Mhm. It keeps coming up, pointing the finger
00:37:56
in another direction. And if the information that they were coming up with half the time pointed to a new direction
00:38:05
or back to him, I'd say, "Hey, I'd just leave him in there." But still all they have after 20 years
00:38:17
is a guy's confession to help you know, he wasn't a witness to the murder. All his confession is that he helped
00:38:28
bury the body. Mhm. And then And then the other stuff he's telling you that the cops fabricated.
00:38:35
And then on top of that he says, "Well, it's because you know, how much is a pound of weed?"
00:38:41
Do you even know? You know what I mean? Like Um a thousand bucks? I I wouldn't even know.
00:38:48
So, what you know You ask me 20 years ago, I might have a I have I might have an idea.
00:38:53
Yeah. His nickname was Smokey. require a pound of weed anymore. Yeah. A day. Um No, so let's just say it's a thousand
00:39:02
bucks roughly. But you think like a known liar right? Not saying like he's malicious or
00:39:09
anything, but his friends are like, "Yeah, Jay's a bullshitter." A drug dealer is not going to give a
00:39:14
bullshitter 10 lb of weed. And I'd also think that it'd be pretty hard to find 10 lb of weed within a
00:39:22
a few hours. So, I I don't know. This It This all stinks. This This This This case
00:39:32
is as bad as Adnan's high school mustache. Well, the the the problem amongst other problems is Jay Jay is
00:39:47
just not believable in any form at all. And he is the Look, the thing is the problem too. And
00:39:58
And this is I I see it as the problem, but but it's the truth of the matter is that
00:40:04
Jay doesn't He only needs to be convincing on on one day, and that's the day of Adnan's trial.
00:40:09
Right. And he only has to convince some of the people in that room. And so really when we're talking about
00:40:18
well, they they need to continue the investigation. There is no investigation. There are I mean, there
00:40:23
might be private citizens, and that's what they are. Be it Be it lawyers, investigators, family members, whomever.
00:40:31
The only investigation you have going on is conducted by citizens. Law enforcement's not going to reinvestigate
00:40:37
this because it it it already went to trial. There's already a conviction. There's already someone sitting behind
00:40:44
bars. The case is closed as far as they're concerned. So, the only movement you have a chance of getting is
00:40:51
something happening within the court system itself. Right. And until he is Well,
00:40:59
cleared of the murder or can't be convicted of it, then they're they're not going to investigate anything
00:41:05
further. Mhm. And the problem is you have Jay's ever-changing, slightly-changing stories
00:41:13
that have changed since the trial date, but that's that doesn't even factor into
00:41:18
the equation anymore because again, he only has to be convincing on that day and to those people in that
00:41:25
room. Well, and here here's the other thing is I I feel bad. Let's assume that Jay Wilds is telling
00:41:33
the truth. He could Like I was telling Morgan last night, he could be lying about a thousand
00:41:38
things. But if he's telling the truth about one thing, that he helped bury that body,
00:41:44
Mhm. or that he saw her uh body in the trunk, then that's all he has to be telling the
00:41:51
truth of. And he's kind of came out and said, "Look, I don't care what you think
00:41:56
about what's true or not. It doesn't change the fact of what I saw in that car."
00:42:00
Mhm. So, if that's true, then what I feel bad about was he got in a situation where
00:42:05
the cops forced him to alter his story, and then of course he's not going to sound
00:42:09
believable cuz he's constantly changing his story. Mhm. And he was forced to. But
00:42:16
in that first trial, the only thing you have going for you if you're the DA is that we have a guy confessing to the
00:42:22
burial. But if the defense was on their game and knew their [ __ ] they could have proved
00:42:29
that this story was doctored by law enforcement. And these stories should not be doctored by law enforcement.
00:42:36
These I mean, we've seen it in the in West Memphis 3. It's absolutely ridiculous.
00:42:43
And these and these law enforcement officers should know better. And it should be about finding the
00:42:51
truth. But um Well, it's not that they should know better. I mean, they do know better,
00:42:56
right? We know that. We we know that. But but the other thing though we have to factor in and this is
00:43:02
this is one thing that I do have a bit of an issue with as far as the general public's perception of these types of
00:43:10
cases and these types of stories where you have someone that there's clearly reason to question if they're guilty or
00:43:16
not. But you have to keep in mind and I I don't mean these these investigators and these detectives
00:43:24
in Adnan's case specifically. Right. I'm talking in in general here. One thing that we need to keep in mind
00:43:31
is these individuals are used to being lied to constantly. And sometimes they have to try to find
00:43:40
their way to the truth. And sorry, we're not always going to like the way that they get to it. I don't
00:43:48
agree with the way that they believe they got to it in this situation or a lot of other situations. But most of us
00:43:55
are not in a line of work where we're used to being constantly lied to. And over years and years and years of of
00:44:03
being subjected to that, it can change you. And I'm not I'm not saying that that's
00:44:10
in defense of these individuals, but I think we we should keep that in mind when we review these types of stories
00:44:16
before we're so quick to crucify people for for things that we don't really understand.
00:44:24
No, yeah. I I agree with you on some level, but here's a situation where because of a couple cop errors and a
00:44:33
couple, you know, writing down wrong locations that we have a a story changing four times.
00:44:41
And I think at that point, once his story is not lining up with any evidence, I think at some point you got to go,
00:44:49
"Hey, we got to put this on hold for a second. We need to do a little more digging."
00:44:54
You know. Um and it's uh But sad though, because there's a lot of victims in this. I mean, if Jay's
00:45:02
telling the truth, he's a victim. I mean, his life has been completely altered, and I'm sure
00:45:07
before Serial, his life was a little more normal. I'm sure Don Donnie is the same way,
00:45:15
right? Now, cuz if Donnie had nothing to do with it, it's all over the place. All Hayman's friends, Hayman's family,
00:45:27
Adnan's family. I mean, it's you know, it's it's sad. But I think it's sad because I think the justice
00:45:34
system here failed. And the other thing that was so depressing to watch was when
00:45:39
they were watching the the voting for the new district attorney. Oh, yeah. And to know that one said, "Hey,
00:45:49
I don't think he's guilty. I don't think there's enough evidence, and basically I
00:45:53
get in, I'm letting the guy go. You can retry him if you want." That's what one of them said.
00:46:00
The other one said that he would uh mandate a new investigation. And then the other person said that they
00:46:08
never made a comment on the case before and wouldn't say either way. And you're sitting there going
00:46:15
two of the three is a home run for you. And it's the third one that gets voted in.
00:46:23
What was it though? I thought the I thought the person that got voted in never commented on the case.
00:46:29
No, that's what I'm saying is that two of the three or you know, or either going to let him
00:46:37
go free or reopen the case and that's two things you want. Mhm. And the person that won is the one that
00:46:43
never commented on the case. And that's the one who won. So, can you imagine his family watching the votes
00:46:51
come in and how disappointed they probably were. Oh, yeah. Yeah, 100%. That's what I mean. I mean like you're
00:46:58
going look two of the three wins, we're at least getting some help. But then the one that never made a
00:47:06
comment on it wins. I'd be like, oh, just what the what the [ __ ] luck that is. But
00:47:12
uh It's sad to hear about his mom and and hopefully um she's doing okay with that. I I I
00:47:21
don't know the situation enough to to comment other than that was really sad to hear.
00:47:27
Right. It sounded like it was stage one uh leukemia and you know, so there's there should be
00:47:35
a fighting chance there. So, of course, wishing her all of the best of luck and the families as well.
00:47:45
But um yeah, tricky situation. We have an individual that that may or may not be guilty.
00:47:53
The trial wasn't great to begin with and it seems like very tough to try to get this to go before a judge again.
00:48:03
Yeah, and um Yeah. I think they could have as far as let's just go back to the show
00:48:10
and talk about the show rather than the case. I think that they could have done better with the
00:48:16
uh private investigators. I know you mentioned that and I part of me wonders what that is. Like I
00:48:21
I bet you what probably happened was we have because those guys seemed pretty good. Like I I liked I liked where they
00:48:29
were going with the kind of outside of the box thinking on a few things. Right. I I'm guessing the reason why they
00:48:37
weren't part of the show more is one they have so much stuff that they got to cram into just a four-part series.
00:48:43
Mhm. But then two, you probably have a situation where these individuals, the private investigators, are given a list
00:48:50
of names of people to talk to and I'm guessing that a lot of those people on that on that list didn't talk
00:48:59
to them. Right. And so we probably have a scenario where these guys are going, "Yeah, we've we've
00:49:05
done a lot of work on it, but we don't have any information for you because so-and-so won't talk and this person
00:49:12
won't return our calls and so on and so forth." And so I I think that I would love to see a show
00:49:18
where it is more of you know you have to do the show the way they did the show, but I think you could have a
00:49:26
whole second show where it would be somebody like a group of private investigators that are coming up with
00:49:31
these different ideas and even if there's doors being slammed in their faces as they're asking questions, I
00:49:38
think you could see that process and the possibility of who that could point to.
00:49:44
Right. It It would be very interesting to see something we've talked about on this
00:49:48
show before where you have a list of suspects and you go, okay, well, maybe we can't circle the guy that did it.
00:49:55
Maybe we can't circle the name of the individual that did it, but maybe we can cross a few of these people off of our
00:50:00
list. And, you know, Don being one of them, Jay being one cuz I really question Jay
00:50:07
as well. You know, because we've seen many, many times where where someone who is guilty of much,
00:50:14
much more will admit to a few things while they're sitting on the hot seat. Right.
00:50:20
Just to get you to believe the rest of the [ __ ] sandwich that they're now going
00:50:25
to feed you. Right. And just because the fingerprint on the mirror doesn't match Jay, that
00:50:31
doesn't mean anything. That does not rule him out. Mhm. Yeah. It'd be but it the other thing is one thing that
00:50:40
I would again wager never happened is they're now looking at this fingerprint and going, okay, well, who
00:50:49
can we compare it to? Who can we cross off of the list? There would have been a different list when she was missing or
00:50:57
shortly after her body was found of people to check to because that fingerprint may not belong to the
00:51:04
killer. True. True. It could just It could just be some individual that was never questioned,
00:51:10
never asked about the case. It could It could belong to one of her relatives. Yeah, but I think
00:51:16
what's interesting, I think with a lot of cases is the the universe does its work sometimes and and and puts
00:51:24
pieces down for law enforcement to collect them to get the right person. Mhm. And I think for whatever reason we have
00:51:32
these items that just weren't tested and not followed up with and and that's just
00:51:37
a shame. I mean, yes, you have this confession and I I get your point that these cops are lied to a bunch. So, even
00:51:44
though he is lying, you have to believe the one thing. And that points to Adnan's guilt. And if
00:51:50
you have to believe that, you go down that rabbit hole, but you have things that you can test.
00:51:55
Mhm. And if you know that she clawed at somebody, where is the marks on Adnan's body?
00:52:04
Well, if you can't find them, But But But again, we don't know that she clawed at someone.
00:52:09
All we know is that there was DNA underneath her fingernails. Right. There's no one saying that that was skin
00:52:16
or blood. Yeah, I think that's the gray area of some of this testing, which I I understand why the defense is doing
00:52:26
that, but there's a part of me that would just go, "Look, it's 20 years. We don't have forever.
00:52:35
He's 38 years old. Mhm. We don't have forever. We need to go full offense. And if I was Rabia,
00:52:45
if I was anybody that was a Adnan supporter, like his the people that believe he's innocent, I would go
00:52:50
completely offensive, and I would do everything I can, and I wouldn't even care so much even to
00:52:59
Cuz I think they're doing a good job. Put it on HBO. Get it so Get the public behind this so
00:53:07
much that it causes the higher-ups to do something. And I think they have that power, cuz I
00:53:13
think they have enough people that believe in them. But now you have to prove it.
00:53:17
And I know that's not how it should be, because it should be innocent till proven guilty, but once you're locked
00:53:23
up, it's guilty until proven innocent. Oh, yeah. So, I think they need to go full
00:53:27
offensive, and I would do that. I'd spend the next couple years doing that. And And uh
00:53:36
And that would be it. Mhm. I'd give it the bit biggest run for our money for the next 2 years.
00:53:43
And I think they can match some of that DNA with people. And I think they can they can figure out uh
00:53:51
I think they can if if it's not Adnan, you it's almost like the burden is for them to prove who it actually was. And I
00:53:59
and I hope they continue to try. Well, the thing though, too, that that I try to keep in mind, especially when
00:54:07
we're going off of Jay's story, and then knowing that the detectives helped write that story a
00:54:15
little bit, is Not a little bit. There's a chance There's a chance that Well, we're we're
00:54:24
assuming. What do you know? What do you mean we're assuming? Uh in part three, it's pretty clear
00:54:33
that when a cop writes down the wrong location of the ping, Mhm. and then they have to call back in the
00:54:40
witness to get him to change the story because they wrote it down wrong, Mhm. and they have to correct that location,
00:54:48
that's not pretty much, that's definitely rewriting the story. Okay. But, the thing is, the only story that
00:54:59
matters is the story that's presented in court, the time that he's found guilty.
00:55:06
And so, however they arrived at that story, Right, but it's Okay. What what I'm saying is
00:55:14
uh going off of the thought that that Jay is not super reliable, and knowing that likely the detectives helped to
00:55:22
write some of that story, there's a chance though that they got the right guy, but their story's incorrect.
00:55:32
Yes. I mean, that that is possible, but I think if the de- if the defense simply
00:55:39
proved that the story was fabricated by law enforcement, that would give you enough
00:55:47
reasonable doubt, and that's what should have happened. If she did her work, and also just the
00:55:53
just the fact that incoming calls are unreliable, and just that fact alone, you can't believe that that story is
00:56:00
correct. That the cell phone ping technology is not scientific fact to back up this
00:56:06
liar's story, and that would give you enough reasonable doubt that would get him out of jail. And then
00:56:13
and that would have proven that law enforcement should have did their goddamn work and followed every, you
00:56:18
know, connect the dots. Not just take this liar's story and start fabricating the truth. And
00:56:28
and I understand they have a lot of cases that they have to cover. And most of the time
00:56:35
they're doing the best they can, and they're also getting pressure from the family and the
00:56:40
community to get something solved and make the streets safer. I get that. But in this case
00:56:48
there there should have been enough where somebody stepped back and said, "Look,
00:56:52
this guy's hard to believe. We need to look into this a little more." Well, all we they'll always have the tape
00:56:59
confession and the you know, cuz he has to sign it every time he does it. They'll They would have had that in
00:57:05
their back pocket. Mhm. And they could have just done a couple more steps, and I think if they would
00:57:10
have done that, I think um again, that would have led them either towards Adnan or away from him.
00:57:17
And it's I just think it's sad that they didn't get to do that. Well, and you know what? As much as
00:57:25
as much as we believe that we're at the mercy of the court and the court system and at the mercy of law enforcement.
00:57:32
We're also very much at the mercy even maybe even more so at the mercy of our own defense.
00:57:41
And What do you mean by that? Our defense whatever defense counsel you hire Right.
00:57:48
to to try to get you to to try to get the outcome to be what it actually is supposed to be.
00:57:55
Right. And that's where the with the system you know, a lot of people will say, "Well, the the system favors, you know,
00:58:04
depending on race." But, I don't even think it's that. I think it's more dependent on class.
00:58:10
Because if you're rich, you can you can hire I mean, look look at O.J. A mountain of
00:58:17
evidence. A mountain of DNA. You hire the right people. So, it's it's kind of sad though because
00:58:25
everybody is entitled, no matter how big your pocketbook, everybody's entitled to
00:58:30
a to a proper defense. And and here's a case where they hired one of the best. They just didn't know that she wasn't
00:58:41
up to her best because of health issues. Right. Right. And that's that's what's so wild here with the thing that you
00:58:49
know, I noticed right away is it's like we went out of our way to hire somebody based off of record and reputation.
00:58:56
Yeah. However, we didn't know the extenuating circumstances that where we we are hiring and paying for a
00:59:03
top rate A+ five-star defense attorney what we're actually getting is a shell of that of that once great attorney.
00:59:15
Right. And so, I mean, and that's the thing that I point out to that I that I try to remind individuals
00:59:23
of when when this case is brought up and I'm asked questions about this, about all the wrongdoings of so
00:59:30
you know, whomever. I try to remind him it's also it's it's also on the defense to to argue that and
00:59:38
it's on the defense to make a case for their client. And unfortunately, that doesn't seem to
00:59:45
it didn't happen in this situation. No, I mean when you have a possible alibi and you don't return the call.
00:59:54
That's dropping the ball and again you know, I feel bad on again on some level cuz obviously she's not in her
01:00:03
best best health. But um at the end of the day think it was a good um a docu-series. I'd rate I'd rate it uh
01:00:15
four and uh four and a half bottle caps out of five. And it was fun to dive into watching the
01:00:23
episode and then the next day discussing it with you because that's kind of old school true crime garage.
01:00:31
That's what we did before we even had a show. Well, and you know what I think is neat
01:00:35
about it, too, is that I would say you don't have to have listened to Serial to watch the docu-series.
01:00:44
Right. And I would also say that it doesn't matter if you haven't listened to Serial
01:00:48
yet and you've already started watching the docu-series. I don't think it matters
01:00:53
the order in which you do both of those. So, if if you're someone out there that
01:00:58
hasn't done both, don't don't stop yourself. You can you can listen to Serial later, you can
01:01:05
listen to it now and watch the the show later. It they they go hand in hand. Listen to them now and hear them later.
01:01:31
Oh.