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page. [Music] Heat. [Music] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
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for listening. I'm your host Nick and with me is a man that celebrated Thanksgiving down in the Turks and Caos
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with Brad Pitt and his other celebrity friends, the captain. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's good to be seen and
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it's good to see you. [Music] All right, captain. This week we are drinking Conspiracy Theory by
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Southernstar Brewing Company down in the great state of Texas. Garage grade four
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out of five bottle caps. Grab a can of this wonderfully hoppy but big on drinkability true west coast style IPA
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today. Ours was provided to us by Kristen in Seattle, Washington. We also have Carol in Philipsburg, Kansas who
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says, "You guys rock and she's been taking advantage of some of our sponsors special offers with our promo code
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saving a small fortune." Yeah, promo code garage. Garage. How about that? Next, we have
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the Frederick'sburg Zombie Walk. Now, I must apologize. What I'm assuming this is a h Halloween time
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thing, but from what I do know is Frederick'sburg Zombie Walk is an annual event and in 2015 they collected about
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3,000 lbs of food to donate to the needy. So, if you live in the Virginia area and you're looking for a really
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good cause to get involved with and something fun to do as well, yeah, just type in the Frederick'sburg
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Zombie Walk into the old Google machine and see how you can get involved. Next, we have Kenny in Pensacola, Florida. We
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also have Lauren in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And last but not least, Joanne in Mason, Ohio. It's Joannne's
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50th birthday on December 3rd. So, a big garage. Happy birthday to Joanne from Nick the Captain, your sister Kathy, and
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all of your friends at the Rav 4. And like always, we like your jib. We want to thank everybody who pitched
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in for this week's beer fund. And if you want to buy us around for next week's show, go to true crimegar.com and click
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on the donate button. And the t-shirts, anybody that bought a t-shirt, they have been shipped now, so
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you'll get those very soon. Please share, you know, once you get the t-shirt, take a take a picture,
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take a selfie, send it to us. Well, I gave the shirts to the Pony Express a couple days ago,
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so they are arriving by horseback any day now. Enjoy. And that's enough of the business.
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That's right. Gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer, and let's talk some true crime.
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[Music] This is true crime garage and this is the case of Mary Pincho Meyer. [Music]
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[Applause] [Music] Washington, October 13th. Mrs. Mary Pincho Meyer, a Washington artist and
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society woman, was shot and killed yesterday. The police arrested Raymond Crump Jr., a
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25-year-old laborer, and charged him with murder. Mrs. Meyer, 43 years old, was shot twice
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in the left temple and in the chest as she walked alone on the old Chesapeake and Ohio Canal to path in Georgetown.
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She died at about 12:45 p.m. [Music] The toe path, a pedestrian and bicycling route frequented by children and
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fishermen, parallels the Ptoac River. Mrs. Meyer had sometimes taken a walk there with Mrs. John F. Kennedy. Mrs.
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Meyer's friends said Mrs. Kennedy, who now lives in New York, was described as a good friend of Mrs.
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Meyer. Mrs. Meyer's brother-in-law, Benjamin C. Bradley, identified the body. He is the
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Washington bureau chief of Newsweek magazine. Mrs. Meyer was Mrs. Bradley's sister.
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Mr. Bradley was a close friend of President Kennedy. The victim was divorced wife of Cord
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Meyer Jr., a writer and founder of the United World Federalists, now employed here by the Central Intelligence Agency.
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The driver of an automobile tow truck along Canal Road, which runs parallel to the tow path, enabled the Metropolitan
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Police to make a quick arrest of the suspect. He was arraigned late yesterday before a
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United States commissioner and held without bail on a charge of murder. He denied any knowledge of the crime. The
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tow truck operator, Henry Wiggins, 24, told the police he had seen a woman, apparently Mrs. Meyer, struggling with a
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man. He heard screams and two shots and then saw a man bending over the body. He
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drove quickly a half mile to the nearest telephone. The suspect was apprehended an hour
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later wet beside the PTOAC near the shooting scene. He told the police he had fallen in the river while trying to
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retrieve his fishing pole. The police reported finding a fishing rod at his home.
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Mrs. Crump also identified a white jacket found near the scene as her husband's. The witness said the asalent
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was wearing a white jacket. Divers were searching the canal and riverbottom for the murder weapon.
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The Meyers were divorced 5 years ago following the death of their son in an automobile accident. Acquaintances said
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this is true crime garage. And this is the case of Mary Pincho Meyer. Well, here we are, Captain. We're doing
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part two of the Mary Pincho Meyer murder case. And why are we covering this? Because obviously we cover true crime
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here in the garage. Oh, really? Yeah. And last week we started to cover this case because it was um the
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anniversary of the assassination of JFK, our 35th president. Yes. And you know, this time of year, you're
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seeing everything on TV involving the assassination. And this case has always been tied to that particular case.
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Yeah. Because Mary Meyer and John F. Kennedy had a love affair of some kind. Yeah. They had an an intimate
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relationship. Uh she had frequented the White House often. Um and and and they were former neighbors as
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well. Correct. So when one looks at the assassination of JFK, one should look at
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this case as well. And that's what we're doing here. Now, what was read in the trailer, that is the actual article, the
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newspaper article that came out the day after Mary Meyer was shot uh in October of 1964. So, that kind of brings you up
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to speed as far as what took place that day and what the general public's perception was of what took place that
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day. And where we're at now is we have Ray Crump Jr., he's 25 years old. He's been apprehended. He was caught at the
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scene. Mhm. So, some would argue he's caught red-handed uh with his fly down. Um but
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anyway, he's arrested and he's arraigned awfully quickly later that same day. And
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now we have a trial to contend with. Right. Right. We have to figure out is Ray Crump Jr. guilty of the death of Mary
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Pincho Meyer. Now, some things that take place very quickly after he's arrested.
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We have an attorney comes forward. Ray Crump Jr. is not of the means to be able to afford a strong defense attorney.
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Right. However, a upand cominging and somewhat successful defense attorney, Dovy
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Roundtree, she agrees to represent Ray Crump Jr. for the cost of $1. And and one could assume, right, that
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maybe that because it's such a high-profile case, uh, you know, ex-wife of a CIA agent that and, you know,
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connections to John F. identity that maybe this would boost her profile maybe. Mhm. Well, that's exactly what she was
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doing. She was going to stake her whole reputation and her future career on this
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case itself and how she represents Ray Crump Jr. Um, the other thing too is we have a bit
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of a uh civil rights or racist or whatever how I don't know what the right word is here, but we have a bit of of of
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a typical conflict. Well, let's just be clear and let's be blunt, right? So, and
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this is 1964 and it's a white woman and the accused is a black male. So, um I believe this
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lawyer, you know, not only to boost her profile, but also who is going to defend
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this man adequately against this against technically a white system at that time.
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Yeah, she probably stepped forward hoping to make sure that Ray Crump Jr. received a fair trial. This is not just
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a white woman. This is a society woman. And this is a a kind of a a low guy on the totem pole, Ray Crump Jr., a young
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laborer who has no money. And let's see what kind of trial he's going to get. Well, she quickly interviews Ray Crump
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Jr. and after meeting with him after, you know, several times, she decides that she believes that he's innocent.
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And she says in her biography that came out many years later that she would not represent Ray Crump Jr. unless she
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believed he was innocent. Mhm. Her her reasoning for this is that when she met with him, she saw what she
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considered to be a a small kind of meek man that was very confused about a situ this situation.
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Right. Right. He didn't even really understand what had happened or why he was arrested for
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what had happened. Yeah. So his story, I mean simply at the scene of the crime was that he's fishing
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and a pole goes in the water and he goes after it and he falls into the water himself and then he's arrested.
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Mhm. Um no involvement, no connection to Mary Meyer herself. Right. They didn't know one another. And
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so she steps forward to represent him and she again she says that he's terrified because this is in Washington
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DC. If you commit first-degree murder, it's a it's punishable by death. Yeah. And what's interesting here to me
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is you see this in the OJ trial as well is like uh Johnny Cochran, for example, didn't want to be a part of the team
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until he actually spoke to OJ. He had to believe OJ or he didn't want to take the case. And she's doing the
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same thing. Correct. Yeah. She did the exact same thing. and it's going to be a a white judge, a
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white prosecutor. Um, and this is not looking to favor Ray Crump Jr. Now, one thing that happens in the get-go, uh,
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from the early part of this in February of 1965, um, Ray Crump Jr. is told that he is
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going to submit a hair sample to the prosecution. Okay. And he refuses to do so. Now, this is
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when Wait, hold on. So, you just said that he was going to. He He was No, he was told he was going to.
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Okay. Okay. He was told he was going to. He refuses to do so. He He's brought into the
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police captain's office in February of 1965. He refuses this hair sample. Okay. Uh what happens is I don't know the
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legality of this whole situation, but it sounds a little messed up to me because
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reportedly they held him down and took his hair from him. Uh, thus they ended up with a sample of his hair. Now, this
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happened unbeknownst to Mrs. Roundtree who was representing him and she was quite angered by this and she would try
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to get this removed from the actual trial. Now, they are not able to do so. His hair is going to be a part of this
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trial and it's going to be looked at as evidence in this murder case. Now, this case would go to trial in the late
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summer of 1965. Now, one of the first witnesses that would be called would be coroner Dr.
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Rafford. And what I how I want to do this, Captain, if you would play along with me, is I'd like to go along through
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some of this trial. We kind of talk about things as we go through it. Um, but the thing to me here is, you know,
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how some trials are just downright boring and it's just kind of, you know, dry and a couple different people
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presenting the facts and it's it's a real quick to uh decide whether this person's guilty or innocent and there's
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not much news out of it, right? This trial to me, I would have loved to have been sitting in the
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courtroom because this seemed like a trial that had a little bit of drama to it and it kind of played out like an
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episode of Matlock in my opinion where you get to see it see everything in action and you get to see two attorneys
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actually working against each other like they're playing a game of chess. Right.
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So, the first witness that is called by the prosecution, this is coroner Dr. Rafford. Now, he that the I'll break
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down his testimony for you. We don't have to go through the whole thing. Yeah, but he's basically saying that Mary
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Pincho Meer was killed by two gunshots. This was a 38 caliber gun. Two shots, one to the temple that left a
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slight halo around the entrance wound. And one to the right shoulder blade. This again
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left a slight halo. Did you say the right temple? Yeah. Okay. So, the right temple. Right
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shoulder blade. Okay. So the the bullet that entered through her shoulder blade,
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it peripherated the lung and it severed the aorta. So basically once that happened, she died almost instantly
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after the second bullet was fired. Okay. Now he's pressed a little bit because they want to figure out what does this
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halo that's near the entrance wound mean? And the coroner would tell you that that halo is produced by powder
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burns, meaning that the shot was very close. and distance if not point blank on Mary's body.
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Right. Mary had abrasions on her head, knee, and ankle. Now, this this would suggest
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that Mary fought her attacker and fought pretty hard. They were able to determine
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that she was drugged about 25 ft. This is after she clung to a tree. Now, one of the bits of evidence that the
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prosecution would say that they're going to show to the jury is that they found blood stains on one of the trees. Well,
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this would be the tree that she she clung to. So, she was attacked. She was shot once. She clung to a tree. She's
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drugged 25 ft. Shot again, dies instant instantly. That's how the coroner sees this attack going down.
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And just to remember that that this happened during the day. This happened like basically at lunch break.
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Yeah. At 12 approximately 12:20 p.m. Okay. In the very early afternoon. So, uh, the
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other thing that the coroner is able to decipher here is that the asalent was able to overpower the victim. The
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victim, Mary, she was 5'6 in tall and she weighed about 127 lbs. The coroner would also suggest that the
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whoever fired the gun could be ambidextrous, that he could be a have the ability to use both the right and
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left hand with the same amount of skill, right? and that he was probably skilled
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with a handgun. Yeah. And you would assume that if the shots are coming from the the right side
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of Mary that the the suspect would be left-handed or that he attacked her from behind and
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he was right. Yeah. Yeah. True. Well, true. I mean, if you're if you're behind the victim and
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you're right-handed, then you can shoot the right temple. But is the wound coming from the front of Mary or from
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the back of Mary? The the shot that went through her shoulder blade. Yeah. That would have been in the back.
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Okay. So, it would be more likely that the victim or the suspect would be right-handed. Y
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because then they shoot. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, the the next witness called for the prosecution. This is supposed to
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be one of the star witnesses for the prosecution. There was going to be two of them. And the first one was Henry
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Wiggins. Now, you'll remember from what we said in the first episode, this is the tow truck driver.
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Yeah. 24. Yeah. And so, he testifies that he was sent by Joe Cameron, this is his boss,
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to pick up Bill Branch, that's his partner, and respond to a stalled vehicle at about 12:20 p.m. And the two
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arrived arrived at the vehicle at that time. When the two arrived, they saw the vehicle. This is a Rambler. Okay. Uh,
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and Wiggins immediately heard screams right after they arrived. So, this is within seconds. We we have we're able to
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put together an easy timeline on her attack because he's saying within seconds of arriving at 12:20 p.m. he
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hears screaming and this alerts him and he decides to run across the street. Before he could get to the wall is when
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he hears the first shot. This is coming from the canal area. So, he proceeds. Then a few seconds later, he says a few
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seconds later, he hears another shot. Now, his partner, Bill Branch, would later testify that it was more like 10
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seconds or 15 seconds between shots. Mhm. Wiggins sees the man. He sees a man just
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seconds after he hears the second shot. He says he's in clear sight of the man and he's less than 130 ft away.
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Wiggins ducks down. So, a little more than a football field. Exactly. Because, you know, he's he's
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hearing these shots. He's trying to react with feet, not yards. I'm sorry. Yeah. Less than 130 ft.
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Yeah. He ducks down behind the wall. He's reacting. And then he gets back up again
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and he looks and he sees a man put something in his jacket pocket. This item was in the man's right hand. He
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could not say for certain if this item was a gun or not. He basically after being cross-examined says that he
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described the item item as a dark hand object. Mhm. Something he was holding with his hand.
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The man turns around and walks away. But this would go with our idea that he's right-handed.
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You're exactly right. So he walks away down and over the hill. Uh the man was wearing a cap. This is one
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of those caps where you can button the brim to the to the to the Yeah, I call it like a cab driver hat.
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He was wearing dark pants, dark shoes, and a light or tan jacket. Uh, and he would state that the jacket was zipped
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up. Now, so he says light or tan. Yeah. Okay. And he saw the man standing over the
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body for approximately a minute. Uh, and says he did not go get a good look at the man's face. Wiggins later that day
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would identify Ray Crump Jr. as this man. And he would identify Crump's clothing that was submitted to the court
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as the clothing that he had seen the man standing over the body as wearing. But that was a white jacket.
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Correct. Right. I mean, he says he says light or tan jacket, right? But there's a big difference
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between white and tan. Mhm. Right. I mean, be a light tan jacket. Yeah. I don't know. Okay.
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Bill Branch. Now, remember, he's Henry Wiggins, the other tow truck driver. that's his partner. He would testify
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that he he was over by the wall. He didn't see the man, but after Wiggins had left to retrieve the police officers
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that he had stood by the wall and kind of watched over the scene. Mhm. Well, there's a problem with this
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testimony. Okay. Because at the crime scene, when he's interviewed by the police, he says when he heard the shot,
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he was afraid. He he was working on the Nash Rambler that was stalled. Mhm. And when he heard the shot, he decided
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to get in the vehicle and just kind of hide and hunker down inside the vehicle. Yeah. Fight or flight. And he he took
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off on a flight. Yeah. And we all know you cannot tell the police in their report one thing and
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then testify to something later in court. You know, he Well, I mean, you can, but
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you can, but it's it it goes against it makes you uncredible. And think about this though here for a
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second. So, he's probably a bit of a bit ashamed that he was just afraid and decided not to go over to the wall,
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right? And no, no one knows how they're going to act in that situation until they're in that actual situation.
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Well, this is where Dovy Roundtree, the defense attorney, would make her first strike against the prosecution in their
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story. Okay. So, she's immediately pointing out that regardless of how long it took police to arrive, and most
00:22:03
people estimate that it was between 4 to 6 minutes after Mary Pincho Meyer was shot. So, very quick police response
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time here, right? Mhm. She's stating that, let's be clear, there was nobody monitoring the crime
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scene before the police arrive. You know, there there wasn't this Bill Branch watching over the crime scene.
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Anything could have been going on down there, right, with without any eyewitnesses.
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Now, what is the prosecution's general plan? Just to stick with what he you know, the
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change of story. Yes, maybe um you know, maybe you feel inferior as a man, I guess, cuz you took off running and and
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hidden your car, but also what are the cops telling you to say, right? Exactly. I mean, the cops are
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going to be working with the prosecution to get a conviction and you got a guy at
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the scene, you know, and he's a black man, so you know, case closed, right? Well, and what's the prosecution story?
00:23:09
The prosecution story is this, okay, that Mary Pincho Meyer was attacked. um her their first thought was that they
00:23:16
would point out that she was um maybe being robbed, that somebody tried to rob her and that that had gone wrong. But
00:23:26
quickly into this, they were able to point out that she would not be one that you would suspect of being robbed
00:23:32
because she didn't she didn't carry a wallet. Now, I know that an asalant might not know that, but she doesn't
00:23:37
have a purse with her and she's not wearing any jewelry. So, why are you robbing this woman? Now, they would
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later say that it was probably a the result her death was a result of a sexual assault attempt on rape on Mary
00:23:51
who ended up putting up too much of a fight that Ray Crump Jr. shot her because of this fight because it got out
00:23:58
of hand and that she might be able to identify him, right? And that he fled the area. Now, why is
00:24:04
Ray Crump guilty of this crime? Well, it's obvious to the people of the jury, right? This is the prosecution speaking
00:24:12
because the police responded so quickly and there are steps and there are things
00:24:16
that you need to, you know, there are exits and entrances, natural exits and entrances to this tow path road into
00:24:24
this area. And the police were able to block off all four of those within 4 minutes of the attack. So, one would
00:24:32
think that the attacker was most likely trapped in that area and therefore would
00:24:37
be apprehended by the police looking for him a short while later, which Ray Crump
00:24:42
Jr. in fact was Ray was Yeah. So, let's think about their attack, their their plan, the prosecution's plan
00:24:48
for a second, okay? And let's bring in the next witness. The next witness was police officer John Warner. He
00:24:55
apprehended Ray Crump Jr. at 1:15 p.m. He was talking to Ray Crump for about 10 minutes before he decided to arrest him.
00:25:05
Now, this took place about one/tenth of a mile east of the murder scene. Now, when he does testify, when he came
00:25:12
across Crump, Crump was not running. He did not look like he was fleeing the area. He was just walking. Uh, and when
00:25:20
he when he approached Crump, he asked him for identification. He presented himself as a police officer. Crump did
00:25:28
not seem to be startled other than the fact that he was soaking wet, right? And he quickly tells him, "I'm Ray Crump
00:25:34
Jr." And he shows him identification. He's asked why he's there. Well, I I'm I'm here because I was fishing. Well,
00:25:41
why are you wet? Because just like the captain said, the fishing pole fell into the water. He went after it. Well, that
00:25:48
story doesn't make a whole lot of sense because Warner, Officer Warner, offers to go
00:25:53
with Crump to the area to help him retrieve his fishing gear, right? Crump says, "Well, it's it's in the
00:25:59
water. We're not going to be able to retrieve it." Then he changes his story. Crump says, "Well, I was I was actually
00:26:07
drinking and fishing and have fallen asleep and and when some point I stumbled into the water." Mhm.
00:26:15
Now, keep in mind, we said that Ray Crumb Jr. is soaking wet, right? Does he smell of alcohol? I mean,
00:26:22
is there any like stench to him? Warner didn't seem to uh he didn't seem to elaborate on that at all.
00:26:29
I mean, how drunk do you have to be to fall into the river? I don't know how drunk I think you have
00:26:34
to be pretty drunk, but I think his story is that he was drinking. Have you ever Wait, have you ever fell
00:26:39
into a river? Uh, not a river, but I have a pond. you why you're drinking. You fell into
00:26:47
Actually, similar story to Ray Crump Jr.'s. I was drinking I was drinking and fell asleep near the pond and then uh
00:26:55
got attacked by some of my friends and and woke up startled and fell into the pond.
00:27:01
Those are some nice friends. They're they're they're no longer friends. They're But sorry about that. Crump Jr. says
00:27:10
that he he had fallen asleep, fell into the water. Okay. Now, when he's found by
00:27:17
officer Warner, he's not wearing a cap and he's not wearing a jacket. So, shortly after he's apprehended, the
00:27:26
police start looking for a jacket and they start looking for the the the hat because,
00:27:31
right, the that the eyewitness saw. They need to uh find the guy that was described to them as described to them.
00:27:39
Mhm. And the next witness is Well, let's uh take a quick pause, get grab a beer, take a quick beer break.
00:27:46
And we're back from the beer break. Yeah, Captain, I want to talk about real quickly the description that is given of
00:27:52
the suspected asalent in Mary Pincho's murder because this will come up time and time again throughout the trial.
00:27:59
Okay. So the description that is given by the first what is quote unquote the star witness Henry Wiggins is that he
00:28:07
had seen a man that was approximately 5 foot to 5 I'm sorry 5'8 to 5' 10 in tall
00:28:14
about 180 lb African-American and in his 40s and we had already described the clothes
00:28:22
that he saw the man wearing now why is this important well Ray Crump Jr. Yes, he vaguely fits this description, right?
00:28:31
I mean, he's an African-American man, but outside of that, uh, on his driver's license, he's listed as 5 foot 3 in, 5'
00:28:40
3 and 1/2 in, sorry, 130 lb and he's 25 years old. So, he's quite a bit younger than the
00:28:48
man in his 40s and he's quite a bit shorter and lighter than the man that was described.
00:28:54
Way shorter. Exactly. Now, he is wearing somewhat the same clothes. You know, when Officer
00:29:01
Warner confronts Ray Crump Jr. and when he apprehends him, he is wearing the dark trousers, the dark shoes that were
00:29:10
described, but he does not have this light colored jacket on and he does not have a hat.
00:29:15
Now, the police were very quickly able to find the jacket. Within minutes of them apprehending Ray Crump Jr., they go
00:29:24
looking for this jacket. And this jacket's found about 45 minutes after they apprehend him. Now, they wouldn't
00:29:31
find the hat until the following day throughout this time. Right. But one could assume that if if
00:29:38
Ry um was the murderer that he disposed of these items, correct? And Ray Crump, this is what
00:29:46
he's he looks like when he's apprehended. He is soaking wet. The officer notes that his fly is down. uh
00:29:54
his pants pocket was torn and the he had a cut on his right hand and a small cut
00:30:01
above his eye. Now, this would lead the police to believe that this these were injuries sustained during the uh attack
00:30:08
on Mary Pincho Meyer, right? Cuz she fought back. His his excuse for these injuries are
00:30:14
that he fell into the water and he he got hurt on the rocks. The next witness that is called by the prosecution, this
00:30:24
is Joseph Rans Ransenval. Sorry for the name there, Joseph. I probably butchered
00:30:29
that. But who is he? He works for the National Park Service. And why is he there? He's there to discuss the layout
00:30:36
of the tow path. And why is this important? Because again, the prosecution said that they were able to
00:30:42
to block off all those entrances and exits. and they believe that whoever committed this murder would have been
00:30:47
trapped and would have been apprehended very quickly as was Ray Crump Jr. Now, so they're looking at this map. They put
00:30:55
like this huge map on the wall right across from where all the jury members are sitting so they could see it while
00:31:01
they're going through the descriptions here. Mhm. Now, the this Joseph that worked for the
00:31:06
National Park Service, he's asked, you know, how many exits are on the toe path road on the toe path between Keybridge
00:31:13
and Chainbridge? And he states that there are four and within four minutes that the police were called, they had
00:31:19
blocked off all four of these, thus trapping the asalent inside. Mhm. Now, he points out these four exits as
00:31:26
one, there are steps to water street at Keybridge. Two, there's an underpass at Foundry Branch. Three, there's an
00:31:34
underpass at Fletcher's Boat House. And four, there are more steps at the chain bridge. Now,
00:31:41
throughout the trial, they will interview several of the officers that were blocking off these exits. And two
00:31:48
of the officers that were supposed to be blocking off the underpass at Fletcher's
00:31:52
boat house, they state that after about 5 minutes, they got tired of blocking off their spot. Right.
00:31:59
Okay. So, they Well, everybody wants to catch the killer, right? I think that's why
00:32:03
some people go into law enforcement. They they want to be the hero, you know? And so after about 5 minutes,
00:32:09
they get a little tired of waiting and blocking their spot. They decide that they are going to each take a route that
00:32:15
would lead them near the scene of the murder. So they're taking separate routes. Now, during the course of one of
00:32:22
these routes, one of the officers, he sees a head peak out of the woods. Now, he doesn't go full charge right into the
00:32:30
woods looking for this man because he believes that this is probably the murder suspect. Why? The only thing he
00:32:37
could identify from seeing the head of this person was that it was a head of an African-American male. Now he sees this
00:32:44
person approximatelyund 150 feet away from him. Okay. He decides to wait there and he's
00:32:51
waiting for backup before he's going to go apprehend this man. Backup never comes. So after some time passes,
00:33:00
they figure out that they're they're ne never able to locate this man. Now, a key thing in the trial that will come
00:33:06
out here is that this officer says that he saw this man approximately at 1:45 p.m. Well, this is where we're going to
00:33:14
see the great attorney Dovy Roundtree make her second strike against the pro prosecution's theory.
00:33:20
So, on cross-examination of this man of Joseph from the National Park Service, she's going through the map with him.
00:33:27
Now, she did the leg work. She would go down to the toe path day after day after
00:33:31
day and scour the scene to see what what was going on and what it looked like and
00:33:36
walk the ground herself. I don't think the prosecution did this. I think that they got they got caught without knowing
00:33:42
what was going on here. Right. Yeah. Or they were cocky and assumed it's 1965. We got a black man. You know,
00:33:50
we're going to we're going to charge him. He's going to be found guilty easily. I think they may have thought it was
00:33:56
going to be an easy win. Well, they didn't realize that they're going to be dealing with Dovy Roundtree. So, she's
00:34:02
going to make her second strike here. And what is this? Through cross-examination of this man, she
00:34:06
points out that there is a fifth exit that Joseph didn't know about. Um, and this points out something here,
00:34:15
which is weird cuz he's the expert on this. Yeah. And I don't think he actually knew
00:34:19
the area. I think he was just somebody that worked for the National uh Park Service. And they
00:34:23
they just call him in. They call him in as an expert witness, right? quote unquote.
00:34:27
What the juryy's able to figure out is this guy's not an expert witness. This is just a guy that that works for the
00:34:34
parks department and he is observing a map that anybody could look at. Right? So, there's a fifth exit. And the
00:34:41
problem with this is well, not only is there an exit that they didn't know about, but
00:34:46
it wasn't blocked by anybody. This wasn't this wasn't being blocked off by officers. So,
00:34:51
so, so we have uh one officer that saw a different black u male. Well, and then we have another exit altogether
00:35:00
that's not blocked. Yeah. So, there's a couple problems here for the prosecution because the
00:35:04
prosecution will come out and say that that black male that peaked his head out of the woods, well, that was Ray Crump
00:35:11
Jr. That that happened, you know, we saw the officers saw him and he was apprehended later. Well,
00:35:17
he must have been hiding behind a very small tree. But we got to look at eyewitness testimony, right? So this
00:35:24
officer says that he saw the man approximately at 1:45 p.m. Well, Ray Crump Jr., it was already been
00:35:31
right. He was already arrested. He was already arrested at 1:15 p.m. So, it could not have been Ray Crump Jr.,
00:35:36
right? Unless he got the time wrong. And the other thing through testimony of the
00:35:41
uh the gentleman from the National Park Service that they are able to determine that Dovy Roundtree points out to the
00:35:47
jury is that not only are there five exits and not four, but there are also plenty of areas where somebody a person
00:35:53
on foot could just leave without having used the steps or anything of that nature.
00:35:58
Right? So, she's picked apart the prosecution theory pretty good right here in my
00:36:03
opinion. She's pointed out that a all the areas were not blocked off that whoever killed Mary Pincho Meyer could
00:36:10
have got away, right? Two, she's pointing out that there not only, you know, there the only person
00:36:17
seen near the body was this African-American male that vaguely matches the description of Ray Crump
00:36:23
Jr., but she's already established that he was clearly not the only African-American male that was down near
00:36:29
the toe path that day that day and at that time. Right? So, this is going to start presenting a
00:36:35
whole bunch of problems for the prosecution. Now, let's keep in mind, too, that the
00:36:40
police had searched for days and days looking for the murder weapon. Now, they did go into the water looking for this.
00:36:49
The murder weapon was never found. They never located the gun that that that shot these 38 caliber bullets,
00:36:56
right? So, you could one assume that it got lost in the water. Mhm. If if Ry actually fell into the water or
00:37:03
he disposed of the gun in the water, making it a lot harder to find. Or you could also assume that if if Ry is
00:37:11
innocent that the the real killer left the park with the gun. Exactly. And that's what she would point
00:37:18
out to the jury. So now the prosecution, they're going to bring in their second star witness. This
00:37:26
is Lieutenant Mitchell. Now, he is this is where the prosecution really liked their their attack. Okay, their first
00:37:34
eyewitness was a black man who was pointing out another black man. And so, they thought that that would ring some
00:37:41
truth, you know, that it's not just a bunch of white people accusing this African-American man of committing the
00:37:46
crime. Now, this is where they thought they were going to hit the home run. And this
00:37:50
is why they called Lieutenant Mitchell last because this is a former military man,
00:37:54
right? uh he's he's a white guy and he's of some standing in in the area. So they
00:38:00
believe that, you know, this is somebody that the jury as well as the general public public would find truthful and
00:38:06
trustworthy. So he says that he would go jogging often around that time almost daily.
00:38:12
Yeah. And on his jog he passed what he identified as Mary Pincho Meyer. This would be shortly before she was
00:38:21
attacked. He said that about 200 yards after he passed Mary Pincho Meyer that he jogged past an African-American man
00:38:29
wearing a light tan jacket, dark trousers, dark plaid cap with a brim, and the man was not carrying any fishing
00:38:36
equipment. Uh he also stated that he saw, you know, who else did you see that day? He says, "Well, I saw a young white
00:38:42
couple and I saw another jogger who was wearing Bermuda Bermuda shorts." Okay. Uh neither. We need to point out
00:38:50
something here. when they're looking for the killer. Mhm. Okay. Mitchell comes to the police the
00:38:58
day after after they had already arrested Ray Crump Jr. and says, "This is the man that I saw walking jo, you
00:39:05
know, he's right near the victim." Now, these other people that he states that he passed on his jog that day,
00:39:12
these people never come forward. They're never identified and they never come forward as eyewitnesses.
00:39:17
Right? So he we got to point out something and we'll come back to this later after the trial, but remind me
00:39:24
about this Lieutenant Mitchell. Okay. Now, Lieutenant Mitchell would state that he gave the same description the
00:39:32
day after the day after Ray Crump Jr. was arrested. That was given by Wiggins. Now, on on trial,
00:39:39
Yeah. But Wiggins, you know, his eyewitness account is a little off of what Ry actually looks like. Mhm. And at
00:39:47
trial, um, this Lieutenant Mitchell is going to be very vague about his description. You know, when he's asked
00:39:54
to give the height and the weight of the man, he says that he looked to be about
00:39:58
my size. Well, Lieutenant Mitchell was approximately 5'8 and about 175 to 180 pounds. This again making him much
00:40:09
bigger than Ray Crump Jr. However, he's never willing. He's pressed by Dovy Roundtree, but he never really fully
00:40:16
admits that he believed the man to be um exactly that size and weight. He just keeps saying someone about my size.
00:40:27
Again, I'm going to go back to the description of of Ray Crump Jr. or what was given of the man seeing standing
00:40:34
over the body. Now, again, this is somebody you're given. You're right. You're given
00:40:38
the eyewitness account of the suspect. This is somebody that was described as an African-American male, stocky, about
00:40:47
180 lbs and between the heights of 5'8 in and 5' 10 in and in his 40s. Okay. So, when officer Warner arrested Ray
00:40:57
Crump Jr., he was presented with identification. This would have shown him that he didn't Ray Crump Jr. didn't
00:41:03
fully match the description of the man that they were looking for. This presents a problem because there
00:41:09
was no there was no gray area about this. They had the testimony of 12 officers that were investigating the
00:41:17
crime that day that all heard the description that went out over the radio of whom they were to be looking for.
00:41:23
Right. And 10 of them state that we were looking for an African-American man stocky 5'8 in in his 40s. Two of the
00:41:32
officers give a different description. They say, "We were looking for an African-American man 5' 10 in 180 lb and
00:41:38
in his 40s." But what you can figure out there is that this is not the description of Ray Crump Jr.,
00:41:44
right? His driver's license states that he's 5' 3 and 1/2 in, 130 lb. Now, on the date
00:41:50
that he was arrested, the police booking, they list him as 5'5 1/2 in and 145 lb. So, he's slightly taller,
00:42:01
slightly heavier than what his driver's license states. Now, what it does not state in the in the booking report was
00:42:10
Ray Crump Jr. was known to have wore lifts that would make him look taller, right? So, I mean, they could have
00:42:16
measured him there and he had the lifts on so he would be 5'5. It was You're exactly right. He was It
00:42:22
was unclear at the time of the trial whether he was arrested wearing these lifts or not. So, he could have been
00:42:27
taller the day he was arrested. The other thing was when given his weight 100% but he's arrested the day of.
00:42:34
Right. So he's arrested the day of. So we can assume he had the lifters on during the attack.
00:42:39
No, we can assume that. But what I'm saying is it was brought up in trial and the police were unable to give a full
00:42:47
report as to the shoes that he was wearing that day, if he was wearing the lifts or not. They they couldn't
00:42:52
determine that. That was there was no record of that. They just took his height and marked it down and moved on.
00:42:57
But they marked it down as 5'5. So they marked him down as they're either lying or he's wearing the lifts and he was
00:43:04
actually 5'5. Exactly. And the other thing is with given his weight, you know, I'm assuming that they're not lying.
00:43:12
Is he heavier because he's wearing wet clothes? I mean, I know that wouldn't add that wouldn't add 15 pounds to you,
00:43:18
but it might add a little bit. You know, I think there's some things on your driver's license that, you know,
00:43:26
they say as long as you're within 50 pounds or whatever that you don't have to change your amount. So, it it might
00:43:34
just be one of those scenes. He's 25 years old, maybe he's a little heavier and and he never changed that on his
00:43:41
license. So, we can all agree though that Dobby Roundtree poked quite a bit of holes in
00:43:46
the prosecution's theory of what took place that day, right? She's feeling pretty good about her case and she
00:43:53
decides that she only calls three eyewitnesses and those eyewitnesses are all people that are just going to
00:43:59
testify toward the character of Ray Crump Jr. And the other thing here though is that
00:44:05
all three of them, one of them being his wife, all three of them had known Ray Crump Jr., this is their testimony, for
00:44:12
15 years or more. And at no point had any of them ever known Ray Crump Jr. to own a gun or to even mention that he
00:44:20
owns a gun. Right? So, we have this guy that is considered not to be a gun owner and we have the
00:44:25
coroner saying that not only is this person ambidextrous, but he's probably skilled with a handgun. So, we have a
00:44:32
guy that might not have even owned a gun, let alone have any skill with one. Yeah. But one, I don't think it it's
00:44:40
necessary that he's capable of using his left hand or his right hand. And also skilled with the gun, able to hold a gun
00:44:48
up to a body and pull a trigger. That's he's not sharp shooting here, right? He's shooting uh somebody by
00:44:56
basically holding the gun to him. Boom. Pull the trigger. And the other thing that Dovy Roundtree would point out to
00:45:02
the jury was that the coroner specifically said that he believed that the asalent was able to overpower the
00:45:10
victim. Now, she points out that, keep in mind, you know, yeah, it it would have been
00:45:14
man versus woman. However, Ray Crump Jr. is shorter than the victim and weighs only a pound or two more than the
00:45:22
victim. So, easily overpowered. Ray Crump Jr. might have been able to do that. But is it like overly believable?
00:45:31
No. There's some questions there. Well, I mean, but she did put up a fight. Mhm. Now, on the final day after she
00:45:39
calls the character witnesses, she decides this is she's going into court with the assumption that she is going to
00:45:46
call Ray Crump Jr. to the stand. and she believes hard and fast that this is what
00:45:51
she's going to do because his story will further back up uh what he was doing there that day. Now, what was her plan?
00:45:59
He had told her a story that he had not told anybody else. That he was down there at the by the water drinking with
00:46:05
a married woman and he being a married man that this was something that they had done more than one occasion that
00:46:12
they would go down there and they would drink together and have a little little kiss face.
00:46:16
Right. There's a lot of male [ __ ] in this story. Um, however, this woman never came
00:46:22
forward. She she did um write a letter or she wrote uh some kind of uh testimony that was given to Dovy
00:46:30
Roundtree, but it was going to state her name. No, because she was married. Right. Right.
00:46:35
And uh this was not something that could be presented in court. Now, Dovy Roundtree on her way into court that
00:46:42
day, she you had to take an elevator to get up to the floor where they were holding court. Well, and also if he's
00:46:47
with this married woman, if that's a true story, then the police's accusations that this was a sexual
00:46:54
attack because it didn't make a lot of sense as far as a robbery goes. You see what I'm saying? So, if he's down there
00:47:01
uh fornicating with a married woman, then why would he have a sexual assault on this other lady?
00:47:06
Exactly. And on the final day of trial, Dovy Roundtree is going into the courthouse and she's going to have to
00:47:15
take the elevator up to the floor that's holding trial that day. And the elevator
00:47:20
operator throws her a little curveball. She says, "You know, I just I just took the prosecution team up to the floor."
00:47:27
Now, the whole time they were in the elevator, they were going on and on about how happy they were that Ray Crump
00:47:32
Jr. was going to take the stand. and they could not wait to pick him apart. They had had this all planned out. They
00:47:38
were gonna spend the whole afternoon picking apart his testimony. I don't know if that's an elevator
00:47:42
operator's job. I don't know. But uh have you ever been in in an elevator where there's an actual operator?
00:47:49
Yeah, that's pretty interesting. It's very old school. Um but anyway, so she gets this tidbit from the elevator
00:47:55
operator and she decides that you know what? If they're if these good old boys are so happy about picking apart his
00:48:01
testimony, I'm not even going to bother calling him to the stand. Right. Why take the risk? If you feel
00:48:06
like you're ahead, you have more to lose than gain. Mhm. Um, long story short, Captain Ray
00:48:13
Crump Jr. is acquitted of the murder of Mary Pincho Meyer. Oh, right. So, what is the aftermath of this,
00:48:20
though? It's an unsolved murder. It's an unsolved murder to this date. The murder took place in the six in '
00:48:26
64. the trial was in ' 65. We here we are all these years later with no answers. Now, there have been plenty of
00:48:34
people that have stated that while this should still be an open case, that technically, if you do some digging, it
00:48:42
is an open case. However, after the trial, it was never investigated anymore. They spent no more time on
00:48:49
investigating this murder after the trial. Why? because the police chief at the time believed that the prosecutor
00:48:56
had botched the trial that did not do a good job on the trial and furthermore believed that Ray Crump Jr. killed Mary
00:49:05
Pincho Meyer and the only reason why he got out of it was because of of racial stuff that the jury was primarily
00:49:14
African-American. There were eight African African-American people on the jury of 12. And so you have a lot of
00:49:21
people that point out, well, this can't be a conspiracy because Ray Crump Jr. did it. He just happened to get off
00:49:27
because he had eight people um that are in the same race that helped him get off. And furthermore, Dovy Roundtree,
00:49:35
she was a a minister at an all black um congregation. And they believed that it was kind of like like you had said to me
00:49:42
earlier, Johnny Cochran, where she was able to talk in a way and present her story in a way and that that some of the
00:49:49
white police officers and law enforcement at the time believed that, you know, because of her church
00:49:54
background and because of the way that she said things and would convey things to the jury that those eight
00:49:59
African-American jurors would have believed anything that she said. Well, right, the the idea of the lawyer
00:50:06
is to tell a better story. which lawyer tells the better story. Um, but I mean, he has some things going
00:50:13
against him and some things that went for him in this case. It's very hard to know.
00:50:19
Uh, I mean, I think that probably played a part. I mean, how many um, AfricanAmerican males are getting a fair
00:50:28
trial in 64, you know, not many. And this was taking place in the north, right? You know, I I don't, you know, I imagine
00:50:35
that varies. Uh, I would imagine it would be less likely to get a fair trial in the south, but this was taking place
00:50:40
in the north. There was, you know, unfortunately there's still racism today. Everybody knows that. We can
00:50:46
pretend that it's not going on, but there's racism today. Could you imagine the racism?
00:50:51
Imagine if somebody just walks through their life going, "Yeah, I'm just going to pretend that this [ __ ] doesn't
00:50:55
happen. I'm just going to say that we're not racist." No. Uh, yeah. What's interesting here
00:51:01
though is, you know, Mary Meyer is, you know, a woman ahead of her time in in a lot of uh facets of her life, right?
00:51:09
Oh, yeah. Very many. And and so is is Ray's lawyer. She's she's a woman ahead of her time. She's a
00:51:16
African-American woman, right? She's a she's also a preacher and and she's a lawyer. I mean, in ' 65.
00:51:24
And then not only that, but she takes I mean, I wonder where her career went after this. She had a very successful
00:51:31
career. I don't know if she went on to um be a part of any other famous cases, but I believe she she had a biography
00:51:38
that came out sometime in the '9s. So that's why so much of this stuff is u you know able to be reported easily. You
00:51:45
know, you have the trial transcripts, you have her biography, plus there were all these other biographies of people
00:51:52
near Mary Pincho Meyer that came out later in life because she was a society woman. She was surrounded by successful
00:51:59
people. Well, and like we said, the the unscent love letter from JFK sold for almost
00:52:05
$90,000, you know, this year. So, I mean, uh, anything that's connected with, uh, John
00:52:11
F. Kennedy has been very sought after in the public eye. Now, there were several people involved
00:52:17
in this trial, one being the prosecutor, um, stating that if you look at Ray Crump Jr.'s life after the trial that
00:52:26
that points out that that he did this murder. Okay. Because uh he would go on to have a very
00:52:32
lengthy police record uh which involved um things like arson uh and assaults. I think he had two arson on there. I think
00:52:41
he burnt down his own house at one point. Um insurance fraud. And they would point out that
00:52:46
hey, by the way, next week I'm burning down the garage. I think Ray Crump Jr. was arrested like
00:52:51
22 times after this uh trial took place and and he had actually moved out of state too. So some of those weren't him
00:52:59
being targeted by anybody. Um sorry about that. I just hit my head. Um but they would point out that he was in
00:53:07
fact a violent man. Now in Dovy Roundtree's biography, she states that she she has a good lit test for these
00:53:16
type of things, right? She would interview a lot of people and have to determine whether they're guilty or
00:53:20
innocent. So, I I'm going to go with her on this. And she states that she believes that that nine months in jail
00:53:27
that that Trump sat there waiting for his trial had changed him because she saw a man that was had been attacked
00:53:34
multiple times while he was in jail. She believed he might even have been raped at one point. and she saw a very
00:53:41
different man walk out of the trial doors that day than the man that walked into him at the start. And she thinks
00:53:49
that that changed him. And obviously he had a a drinking problem. He had had a small drinking problem before he went on
00:53:56
trial before Mary Pincho's murder. And she saw that his alcoholism became very acute afterwards. And and this would
00:54:04
lead to all these problems that he had with the law. Well, yeah. I mean, but you also have,
00:54:10
you know, you're living in this world thinking that you're going to get a fair shake and and I'm sure um
00:54:17
I'm sure anybody of decent intelligence back in 63, 64, 65, this time period, uh, African-American male knows that
00:54:27
some of the some of society's cards are stacked against you already. Mhm. And so, but but with those cards being
00:54:36
stacked against you, other than that, you're hoping you get a fair shake, right? If you do the right thing, then
00:54:42
then good things happen to you. And and but I mean, one, whatever, if if his story is true, um, and he was actually
00:54:52
with a married woman, then you weren't doing the right thing at the time. And but then this happened, and then this
00:54:58
kind of sets this spiral, and it changes your mindset. Well, this is how the world works and it doesn't matter if I
00:55:04
did it or not. All these people think I'm guilty of it. That'd be a really tough thing to defend yourself on.
00:55:10
Well, and you hinted on something there that I've always said for many, many years, you know, and in regards to Ray
00:55:16
Crump Jr., he was not just a man in the wrong place at the wrong time. No, this was a man willingly putting himself in a
00:55:23
bad situation. He went down there that day to do something he shouldn't be doing. And I've always said for years,
00:55:29
if you put yourself in a bad situation or you put yourself around bad people enough, bad things are going to happen
00:55:34
to you. I'm not saying he deserved what happened to him that day if he was in fact innocent. However, you know, that's
00:55:41
the moral of the story here. Now, you also hinted on something earlier that I I appreciate because when when I first
00:55:47
started looking at this case and the more I got to know about Mary Pincho Meyer, the more I got to admire her. I I
00:55:53
think she was an incredible woman that has a bigger story that's that's more than just possibly having an affair with
00:55:59
the late president. Yeah. I think that she was an extremely interesting woman. I think that she fit into high society
00:56:05
very good, but she also had this inner hippie inside of her which was cool. And the other thing though you pressed on
00:56:11
was well you can be a part of high society but understand that the idea is that you
00:56:16
have to have an open mind. And if you have open mind about issues, you're more likely to solve the problems,
00:56:23
right? And she fit into both of those categories. The other thing here, too, is like you said about Dovy Roundtree.
00:56:29
Yeah. This was an amazing woman. I mean, I could only imagine if if if she she poked holes in this prosecution's theory
00:56:37
like you wouldn't believe. I mean, she just tore apart their case in my opinion. And I always looked at
00:56:41
Yeah. But I I look, some of it is just I think a shitty prosecution. I mean, for
00:56:46
everything that you know, for when they go, well, this eyewitness testimony is off. He's only 53. Well, if he's lift
00:56:54
wearing lifters, then therefore their their eyewitness testimony is not that far off,
00:57:00
right? But we both agree that the prosecution came into this trial and they thought they probably had an easy
00:57:05
case. This is a a poor or a lower middle class black man accused of killing a wellto-do white woman, right? and it
00:57:13
happened in broad daylight. This is an easy case. But Dovy Roundtree could have walked in the same with the same
00:57:19
thought, right? She could have walked in and thought, "Well, this is an easy case
00:57:22
for me to lose. This is an African-American male charged with killing a white woman, and I'm just
00:57:28
going to go in here and make sure that he gets a fair shake. I'm not going to really work this thing real hard. I
00:57:32
think she worked this case really hard." Well, but in all fairness, she took the
00:57:36
case. So, I mean, you're not going to take a case to lay down. She took a case to win
00:57:41
it. No, you're and you're exactly right. But I think when she saw what was uh you
00:57:46
know the adversity in front of her, I think that she didn't back down and she never wavered and that she continued on
00:57:52
and she got the I think it's the right verdict. Now, I can't say from personal opinion whether I think Ray Crump Jr. is
00:57:59
guilty or innocent because I think there are things pointing to his guilt and things pointing to his innocence.
00:58:04
However, had I been on the jury back in 1965 and witnessed the trial as I understand it to be, I would have give a
00:58:13
verdict of innocent there. Right. Right. I I believe I would have too. Um but I don't know. I you know when I when
00:58:24
I cuz I put this one on the list. Uh I don't put a lot of cases on the on our our schedule. Um, and I did so because
00:58:32
I'm so fascinated with the assassination of John F. Kennedy and when this is always reported. So, I guess we can get
00:58:39
into the uh conspiracy side of things for just a little bit, right? Well, I was going to ask you, do we have
00:58:44
enough time to discuss uh any of the conspiracies? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's early in the day. I got a little
00:58:49
bit of time for you. Yeah. So, Well, I here's the thing is I I wanted there to be a conspiracy. I
00:58:57
wanted there to be this bigger thing, this bigger reason um regarding Mary Pincho's murder, not
00:59:03
JFK's. Right. Right. Right. But look, I will just come out and say it. I I do not think uh Lee
00:59:11
Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman. Well, before you get into that, let's talk about Mary.
00:59:17
Okay. No, no, but this is setting it up. You got to start there. So, what was happening before JFK? You
00:59:25
know, Yeah. there's this affair and all this stuff. Great. Who cares? In my eyes, I don't care. You know, he was a
00:59:32
[ __ ] That doesn't I think he was a good president. But so Mary has ties with Timothy Liry,
00:59:41
which is the big LSD guy. And he was a professor at Harvard doing studies on LSD, you know, the truth serum. But it's
00:59:49
really more about expanding and opening the mind. That truth serum was a joke. Well, no, but people actually used it as
00:59:57
truth term in experiments, I think. Right. Right. So, she had uh basically she had a relationship with Timothy Liry
01:00:05
and she was getting LSD from Timothy Liry and she was administering these turn on events with um you know,
01:00:17
Washington elites. Mhm. and she was trying to get uh the wives of these elites to get turned on,
01:00:26
to open their minds, therefore influencing their men. And she even stated to Timothy Liry multiple times,
01:00:33
if you can get these guys wives and these guys mistresses to get turned on and open up to new
01:00:40
ideas that it could really influence the the whole world. Um, and if you ever want to look up something pretty
01:00:48
interesting, it's uh Timothy Liry wrote about this and his relationship with um Mary Meyer. No, not a sexual
01:00:56
relationship, just a relationship. So, they would go back and forth. When John F. Kennedy was assassinated, she called
01:01:06
to Timothy Liry. She then stated to him they killed him because he knew too much. Yeah, I believe his exact quote is
01:01:15
that she said, "They couldn't control him anymore. He was changing too fast. They've covered everything up."
01:01:23
Right. And really to me a a tell sign of there's some big tells I think that point to the idea that it was this uh a
01:01:35
coup d'eta if you want to call it is this notion that Kennedy was going to pull out of the war and how who does
01:01:43
that affect monetarily and that the government didn't want to do that so therefore we're going to assassinate him
01:01:49
and we're going to take back power. he wasn't going to listen to the people because he got turned on be, you know,
01:01:56
as far as, you know, opened up his mind to the possibility of, hey, war might not be the answer. Okay. So, yeah, maybe
01:02:04
he knows too much. Maybe he's changing. Maybe he they can't control him anymore,
01:02:08
so they assassinate him. That's what she's kind of saying towards Timothy Liry. And I think she was a little
01:02:14
scared, you know, because she was one of the associates that were kind of helping
01:02:18
him open up his mind. And so that happens that happens in ' 63. Now, when you hear about Mary Meyer all
01:02:29
the time, you hear, "Okay, the assassination happened and then Mary knew so much that they killed her." But
01:02:36
that's not the truth because what happened was it was a year later. Yeah. She was killed about 11 months
01:02:42
after uh JFK was assassinated. Yeah. And you have the Warren Commission come out with their report,
01:02:48
just weeks before she's killed. And this to me uh is if you want to go down the conspiracy rabbit hole with
01:02:57
this case, this would be the tell sign because the Warren Commission come out with their reports, their findings. Um,
01:03:04
Lee Harvey Oswald is the lone gunman and she is pretty vocal and pretty public that she does not agree with their
01:03:11
findings. Well, one rumor that was going around as well was that she had actually purchased
01:03:16
the paperback version of the Warren Commission's report and that she was making notations as she was reading it
01:03:23
and highlighting things and probably putting together a case that they were wrong, that their findings were not
01:03:29
exact. Um the cool thing about Mary Pincho Meyer though again she was a society woman. So the people that
01:03:36
surround her were very successful. So there's so many document if you want to dive into this thing there's so many
01:03:41
biographies that came out years after she was killed of people close to her that talk about things going on in her
01:03:48
life that led up to her death. Now some of these can be considered hearsay. Um but you know you have like her
01:03:55
brother-in-law uh Mr. Bradley. He was a very successful guy. He was in charge of
01:03:59
the Washington Post, I believe, later in his life, right? And um you know, he has a biography and
01:04:04
as well as plenty of other people in this case. Now, let's talk about real quick why, you
01:04:10
know, you're talking about Mary Pincho Meyer. Was it a conspiracy? Well, let's pretend we all agree Ray Crump Jr., we
01:04:17
believe the jury, we believe Dovy Roundtree, and he is actually innocent of this crime. Mhm.
01:04:23
So where are some problems with who actually killed Mary Pincho Meyer and and why? And you had mentioned her not
01:04:32
agreeing with the Warren report, right? Okay. And the argument there is that okay, as
01:04:37
far as the session assassination is concerned, how many of those witnesses have mysterious deaths afterwards? And
01:04:45
so that's kind of where they're drawing is anybody that's connected, anybody that has uh different viewpoints,
01:04:52
anybody that has a voice, anybody that can that could change public opinion. There's a lot of people that end up dead
01:05:01
and then that's they're they're lumping her in with that. Yeah. I believe there were like 25 to 30
01:05:06
people on that list and she would have been like 15th or 16th on the list. Now, not all of them were murders. Some of
01:05:12
them were suicides, but uh Right. There was a lot of mysterious. It's enough to talk about, that's for
01:05:17
sure. Well, the other weird thing, too, is that there was a I think a breakin to
01:05:22
her house. Um they were looking for her diary and there was this whole thing that after her death um trying to uh
01:05:33
that people of higher power were trying to get her diary. Yeah. She had told some of her friends,
01:05:39
and I believe it was her uh uh sister, that she believed that people were following her and that she that they
01:05:47
were breaking into her home and possibly wiretapping her phone. Um she even states that one time when she was coming
01:05:54
home that she saw somebody leaving her her home, right? And um and if a lady's making these claims, I
01:06:01
don't think she's, you know, paranoid and just making this stuff up. Well, let's talk about this diary real quick
01:06:07
because there are a whole bunch of stories about this diary. I wanted to include it and give a very factual
01:06:14
opinion of this diary. The problem was when I looked at it through the eyes of four different people reporting on this
01:06:22
diary, they all had different stories. And so I couldn't come up with what was the truth. But the general story is
01:06:30
this, that within 24 hours of her murder, that her friends and her loved ones conspired that they wanted to go to
01:06:39
her home and to her studio, and they wanted to collect her personal things, that being a diary that they suspected
01:06:46
she kept, her letters and her personal papers. Now, when they went to This is Ben
01:06:53
Bradley. He's the And part of this could be like I like I said, she's she's this this is a tough
01:07:00
cookie. I mean, you know, she was having an affair with the president, you know, at one point
01:07:08
and and she talked to, you know, like I said, she talked to uh to Timothy Liry about the different mistresses of people
01:07:16
of power in Washington. Maybe she was having other affairs. Maybe it was just to get this diary to protect her
01:07:23
reputation because, you know, a lady that is single and maybe having uh affairs with married men uh puts a a
01:07:33
damper puts a kind of black cloud over all the positive stuff she was doing, especially during that time period. And
01:07:40
so there there's definitely motive in in that scenario to we want to collect this
01:07:46
stuff uh so so we can kind of protect her name and her reputation. Well, they're saving face, right?
01:07:52
They're they're protecting her name, protecting her family because they believe she was writing down everything
01:07:58
she did and and potentially protecting the Kennedy name as well. They didn't want these things to get
01:08:03
out. Now, her brother-in-law, Ben Bradley, his story, he says that he was part of this group that went to her home
01:08:10
to get these items. Now, when there he says when he gets there, there's a gentleman, his name is James Angleton.
01:08:18
He's a CIA agent, and he is he was either trying to pick the lock to her home or he was already in the home when
01:08:27
they got there. That part of the story is a little unclear. Mhm. While they were there, they found a
01:08:33
diary. And according to Bradley, Angleton said, "You know how we handle these things in the CIA. I can take this
01:08:42
back to headquarters and I'll burn it. I'll dispose of it properly and nobody will ever know what was in this diary."
01:08:48
Well, after the the group of friends talk about it, they decide that that's probably the best thing to do. And
01:08:56
and why is this normal, though? Is it just normal because she was married to a CIA agent?
01:09:01
I think so. And I think it's where they live. I mean, living in the DC area being involved in all of those groups,
01:09:07
right? But if it was just some other white woman even of some power, would the CIA be there going through her
01:09:15
diary? Um, you know, it's unclear why why Angleton was there? But he is a man of
01:09:22
the CIA. He could have said, "I'm investigating this her murder." you know, this is within 24 hours of the
01:09:29
death, you know, so there there's not been somebody convicted of this crime. They could have fallen for that.
01:09:34
Well, they didn't do a good job of con, you know, investigating and convicting anybody.
01:09:37
No, but you need to keep in mind something here, too. They were friends with James Angleton. So, it wasn't like
01:09:43
a stranger show up showed up and was trying to break into the Well, I wanted to see where the How does
01:09:48
this make sense? No, this was this was a man that they knew and they knew that Cord Meyer had
01:09:52
known him and so this was a man that they they trusted. Now, where the problem comes about is there's multiple
01:09:59
again multiple stories with this with this diary. The one being that seems to be the most likely that several people
01:10:05
back up is that they agreed to give the diary to James Angel and he said he was going to burn it at the CIA at at his
01:10:13
office. Right. Right. After he read it slowly. Now, um some other stories about the
01:10:19
diary. Uh, one of them being that one of the friends, a female friend of hers, states that she took the diary and took
01:10:27
it home and disposed of it. Um, another person states that they saw James Angleton in possession of this same
01:10:35
diary 10 to 15 years later after he said that he had destroyed it. Why was he holding on to it? Uh, and there's also
01:10:43
some other reports that state that they found a diary that seemed to contain no information about her personal life at
01:10:50
all regarding Kennedy or drugs or anything of that nature and that they agreed that it was of nothing of
01:10:56
importance and they decided to dispose of it. However, there are people that will point out that there some of these
01:11:03
stories say that the diary was found in her home and other stories say that the diary was found in her studio. So, some
01:11:10
have suspected that maybe one of these diaries was a fake that that somebody had either planted it or it was just
01:11:17
something that was misunderstood to be a diary and wasn't in fact that. Or maybe there's two. I mean, maybe
01:11:24
there's just a di, you know, some people like to keep journal. It's good for me,
01:11:29
you know, mental health. You know, get out a journal, just kind of jot down your thoughts of your day, how you're
01:11:34
feeling, you know, just kind of check in, you know, journal. Wonderful. and then then another journal or another
01:11:40
diary that is more in depth about certain events and certain things more kind of a keeping track of history. And
01:11:49
you're exactly right cuz one of her friends would state that what they were looking for was a journ a diary uh with
01:11:56
personal information with with maybe even potentially top secret information. However, what they had found was more of
01:12:04
a sketchbook of was more of something that you would expect to find in an artist studio or an artist home where it
01:12:10
was just kind of doodles and and things of that like little ideas. Why else could this be a conspiracy
01:12:16
captain? Well, let's go back to that Lieutenant Mitchell. Now, he's the the man that came forward the day after Ray
01:12:24
Crump Jr. was arrested. Yeah, he's the jogger. He's the jogger that claims he jogged by Ray.
01:12:29
And he testifies at trial. Now, on the date that he goes into the police department and says, "Hey, I was there
01:12:36
yesterday and I saw her and I saw him." Uhhuh. He states that his job is he's a lieutenant with the army. Okay. When
01:12:44
they go to trial, he gives a different description of his occupation. He never states that he's with the army. He
01:12:52
states that he's a teacher at Georgetown. I believe mathematics was what he was teaching. Mhm.
01:12:57
Now, there have been several authors that have written about this case. Now, more than one of them have gone back and
01:13:05
done the detective work. Done. Done. Did I say dung? Who knows? That's funny. Well, Lieutenant Mitchell's story might
01:13:13
be a pile of dung because the authors have gone back and more than one have concluded when they contacted the
01:13:19
University of Georgetown that he's never been listed as a as a professor or teacher there ever.
01:13:26
Right. ever, including 1965 when he was at trial stating that that was his occupation.
01:13:33
Very interesting. Well, then who the hell is this Lieutenant Mitchell? Well, the other
01:13:37
and second of all, again, remember we pointed out that in the trial, he's the only one saying that he was there. You
01:13:44
know, Ray Crump Jr. never says he saw this Lieutenant Mitchell jogging. Mary Pincho Meyer is dead. The white couple
01:13:51
never comes forward. They're never identified. They could be not even exist. and the man wearing the Bermuda
01:13:56
shorts. Or they could be people having an affair that don't want to come forward.
01:13:59
Yeah. But what about the man with the Bermuda shorts all by himself? He's never identified or or seen by anybody
01:14:05
else and never comes forward saying that he was down there that day and had seen
01:14:09
anything. Yeah. So, we have the one case with the Jords and now we have the Bermuda
01:14:14
Bermuda shorts. Yeah. We should write songs about this. Uh the other thing, too, is you know the
01:14:20
babushka lady. Mhm. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. I think that's a picture of her.
01:14:25
The picture basically if you look up the JFK assassination, there is this lady that they call the babushka lady.
01:14:32
Mhm. My tongue is getting in the way of my talking today. So, this lady has never been identified,
01:14:39
I believe. And a lot of people believe that Mary Meyer was the babushka lady. And the babushka lady was in Dallas,
01:14:47
Texas on the day that uh JFK was killed. Is that correct? Right. Now, one could dis, you know, if
01:14:53
they're having an affair and we have a letter that was unscent, JFK is saying, "Hey, come visit me here. Come visit me
01:15:01
there." Was she just in the audience of the parade visiting her, you know, lover, right? Lover. Um,
01:15:10
was she the babushka lady? It's interesting. What's interesting to me though is the babushka lady has very
01:15:19
distinct glasses. And if you look up Mary Meyer babushka lady, you can see pictures sidebyside. I'll post that on
01:15:28
Instagram uh true crime garage. That's also on the website too at true crimegar.com.
01:15:34
We did get a bunch of emails of people asking us. They're like, "Well, I know this case is interesting, but I really
01:15:39
want to hear uh you guys go through the JFK assassination." And I thought, "Oh my goodness." Because I mean, West
01:15:47
Memphis 3, I flinched a few times when we decided to do that case cuz it was huge. OJ was a big case. I mean,
01:15:53
we kind of rushed West Memphis 3 a little bit. We could have made that like part six, you know, six parts.
01:16:00
Yeah. Because when we got into it, we thought that three would would more than cover it. And we got into it and we
01:16:05
realized, holy moly. And we kind of had to rush through some stuff in. Can I give you a couple quick
01:16:11
bullet points on my thoughts of JFK and his assassination? Do we got time for that?
01:16:16
I guess. Oh god, you're like opening up this can of worms, you know? No, I just have some questions. Okay,
01:16:23
the here's the questions that I have when I when I think about the assassination and whether Oswald did it
01:16:28
or whether there were other people involved or Oswald was not even involved. You know, there there's some
01:16:34
things that are very questionable. Now we need to keep in mind you had mentioned going you know pulling out of
01:16:39
the war at the time but there was also some things going on within our government that that is of the same
01:16:45
mind. Now keep in mind we were a war economy back then. That was what drove our economy. So yes the government would
01:16:52
most likely want us to stay at war but what was going on as well is we had the cold war with the Russians going on at
01:16:58
the same time. Now, the weird thing here is that the the military and the CIA was
01:17:05
not working handinhand with President Kennedy at the time. President Kennedy was making deals and working on making
01:17:11
treaties with the Russians to to to end the testing of nuclear weapons. And this is not something that the
01:17:18
military wanted to do. In fact, when we had the um the Cuban missile crisis, the
01:17:24
military and the CIA wanted to use this to their advantage to basically start World War II. They wanted to use it as
01:17:32
an excuse to launch nuclear missiles towards Russia and they wanted it to they wanted to use this to invade Cuba
01:17:39
as well. And now Kennedy, I know that we've attacked his personal life quite a bit, but we we should
01:17:45
I just called him a [ __ ] Yeah. that we should stand up for him in the fact of being a good president that
01:17:50
he was seeming to make moves towards peace and he was doing efforts to make moves towards peace. He didn't agree
01:17:56
with firing the nuclear weapons at at Russia. He did not agree with going in and trying to evade invade Cuba. Uh so
01:18:03
he was doing things that they didn't agree with this and it's weird when you see the military and the president not
01:18:09
working together in my opinion. Yeah. Well, that's I mean that's the you know shows motivation of why they would
01:18:16
want a coup d'eta. And there's another person you should look up and this is Tony Shyman and her
01:18:22
father was Joe Shyman. Now it's hard to figure out exactly what his job was. I believe that he had worked for the
01:18:29
Secret Service, but there's many people that bring him up and say that, you know, if you follow him, this Joe Shyman
01:18:36
enough that he seems to work in whatever branch of the military or whatever branch for our government that is uh
01:18:43
convenient at the time. You know, sometimes he's listed as having been in the Air Force. Sometimes he's listed as
01:18:48
being FBI man or CIA or Secret Service now. So, he's kind of a guy that seems to move around and be a little shifty.
01:18:56
But one thing she said about her father that that she has said time and time again that that always stands out in my
01:19:02
mind was that she she said that 6 months before Kennedy was assassinated that her
01:19:09
father had told her that Lyndon Johnson had come to him and asked for more security and this would be more security
01:19:18
than the president was receiving. and he just kind of wanted to mention that to his daughter at the time because he
01:19:25
found it to be a very strange request. He also thought it to be a very uh foreshadowing request.
01:19:32
Yeah. I mean, hindsight's 2020, I guess. I don't know. I don't want to get into it too much because I I hope that we
01:19:39
cover it sometime and actually like actually dive into it. Maybe next November. Yeah. Yeah. That's a we're setting up a
01:19:48
giant task. Anyways, is was she a part of was her murder a conspiracy? Um, I don't know and I
01:19:58
wouldn't put it past uh anybody. To me, there is no like, you know, direct red flag of all this is a conspiracy. I
01:20:08
think that she has ties to Timothy Liry that are interesting. She has obviously ties to the CIA that are interesting
01:20:14
with her ex-husband. She has ties to JFK being one his neighbor, being his friend, being somebody that, you know,
01:20:23
look, I keep saying possibly had an affair because other than people going, "Yeah, we think that happened." There's
01:20:29
not much proof. And, you know, I I don't think I I think it's irresponsible just
01:20:35
to say, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, she was definitely having You're right. It's not 100% proof
01:20:38
positive." But Well, and what they claim is this unscent letter is the proof. Well, it's
01:20:44
unscent. It would be different if it was sent. Um, but like I said, it's again, it's a shitty love letter. It's a booty
01:20:51
call letter is what it is. But there does seem to be more people inside that circle saying that there was an
01:20:57
affair between the two than are saying there was not. Yeah. But that what I'm saying is you
01:21:02
have all these things tying that really kind of seem like, oh, yes, definitely there's some conspiracy. And normally
01:21:12
I'm so quick to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon. This one, there's just nothing that hooks me to go, this is
01:21:19
definitively something weird going on. This is just a lot of kind of circles that she run in
01:21:27
um the circles that she ran with. It's odd. So, but I think anybody that ran in those circles would think possibly this
01:21:36
could be a conspiracy. Well, and I think if you want to I I mean this Lieutenant
01:21:42
William Mitchell is a big red flag for me. He's there seems to be a lot of problems with the things he said.
01:21:48
There's a lot of problems with his career. Now, there's even one author that has said that he believes that
01:21:54
Mitchell was the one that that in fact murdered Mary Pincho Meyer and he's worked to build a case against him all
01:22:01
these years later. And this has been taking place within the past few years. Will it ever become a a trial? Will he
01:22:07
ever be brought up on those charges? Probably not. This man is in his 70s by now, and he's led a very shadowy
01:22:15
uh mysterious life. Um was was he simply just not there that day is what I wonder. Was he just coming
01:22:22
forward and and regurgitating what he heard in the read in the newspaper and and he's backing up this story so that
01:22:29
they have a fall guy, right? or what or was he paid, you know, to come forward or was he paid to hire a
01:22:36
hit on her and then they thought there was a possibility that maybe he was seen so they wanted him come who who knows
01:22:43
there's a bunch of whatifs. The sad thing is that you know Mary Meyer was a you know a very smart, intelligent,
01:22:50
creative woman. She was a mother. Um you know she overcame a lot of adversities in her life. She seemed to be such a
01:22:59
very positive person, a positive influence on other people in her life and she lost her life for whatever
01:23:04
reason. And that's the point and that's and that's the sad thing. The other sad thing to me, the other thing, the
01:23:11
upsetting thing about this to me is that the day that that trial started in 1965
01:23:18
against Ray Crump Jr. for the murder of Mary Pincho Meyer, the investigation stopped. And even when he was acquitted
01:23:24
and he walked out of that courtroom a free man, they never they didn't investigate this crime anymore. They
01:23:31
just let it be. They just walked away from it and said, "You know what? We got a bad verdict and this guy's absolutely
01:23:37
guilty." And that's wrong. That's wrong. This should be It's I'm sure it's considered
01:23:42
legally an open case, but not in the opinion of the investigators back then, and I'm sure not nowadays. Well, I mean,
01:23:49
you see this h I mean, even with like the West Memphis 3 when you give the you know, you give them a plea deal, they
01:23:55
get out of jail, and then they go, "Well, no, these guys are still guilty. We still believe they're guilty." Well,
01:24:00
if you still believe they're guilty, then why are you letting them out on the street? If you still believe those guys
01:24:05
murdered 8year-old children, why are you letting them out on the street? You're stating that so you don't have to do the
01:24:11
work. Yeah. And and and it's you can't have it both ways. Well, it's it's very sad because
01:24:18
again, not only do you have the victim, but you have the victim's family that has no answers. All right. I hope you
01:24:25
guys enjoyed this episode. I got a little recommended reading for you. Yeah, I mean, that's what we're getting
01:24:29
to. Well, thank you. Uh, this week's recommended reading, The Mammoth. Sorry, The Mammoth. The Mammoth Book of
01:24:36
Coverups. This is by John E. Lewis. The 100 most disturbing conspiracies of all time. I recommend picking this up. This
01:24:44
is kind of like the Guinness book of conspiracies, if you will. Uh, this is covering cases like the
01:24:49
assassination of JFK, things like the Da Vinci Code, Area 51, the death of Princess Diana, and the Illuminati. You
01:24:58
like to talk about the Illuminati. Uh, and of course, many, many more. There's the 100 most disturbing cases and
01:25:04
conspiracies of all time, the Mammoth Book of Coverups by John E. Lewis. Go to our website true crimegar.com. Click on
01:25:11
the recommended page. That's on there as well as the book that we recommended last week, Mary's Mosaic.
01:25:17
And like always, you can follow us at true crimegar.com. Go to the website, sign up on the mailing list. Make sure
01:25:23
you subscribe to the show. Make sure you tell a friend and also social media, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all that
01:25:31
stuff at True Crime Garage. And until next week, be good, be kind, and don't litter.
01:25:39
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