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[Music] % welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:45
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who may or may not be the father of the royal baby
00:01:52
he is the captain well he already has dual citizenship so why don't you explain that one to me it's good to be
00:01:59
seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend tonight tonight everything's
00:02:11
going to be all right Captain because we are sipping on dark subject matter by our good friends at Monday Night Brewing
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I would recommend staying at home and pairing this with your favorite cigar and your favorite True Crime garage
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episode and we are paired up with this great beer by some of our good friends right here first up a big cheers and
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thanks to Jacqueline Turner and Aaron W big shout out to Kristen and Mike and Philly next up we say hello to Tracy and
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Westminster Colorado next up we have Vanessa from Inver Grove Heights Minnesota and we also have Tasha who
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with this week's beer fun yeah you can find that album on iTunes and we have some other episodes and some other music
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and some other nonsense so check that out on iTunes and that is enough of the beers all right everybody gather around
00:03:25
grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] [Music] e [Music] Long View
00:04:08
Washington May 15th 1985 the school bell rings it's the end of the school day 8-year-old Rema
00:04:18
Traxler leaves on foot returning home from St Helen's Elementary School on the way she decides to stop at
00:04:28
a friend's house she wanted to show off an art project she made at school after a brief visit she continued
00:04:37
on her way walking towards her family's residence eyewitnesses observed her walking approximately two blocks from
00:04:47
her family's home Rema never arrived at her house that afternoon she has not been seen
00:04:56
again Rema was a smart little girl raised by a good mother who taught her the dangers of talking to
00:05:06
strangers little did she know pure evil was lurking close to home and just right
00:05:13
around the [Music] corner Rema was last seen walking home from school the third grader was about 4 3 in
00:05:37
tall and 45 lb she was a beautiful blue-eyed little girl with blonde hair that fell down to the middle of her back
00:05:45
she was wearing a pink shirt plaid tan skirt and white tights when Rema failed to come home her mother Danielle became
00:05:52
very worried Danielle walked to the school to retrace her daughter's steps she saw nothing that would alert her and
00:05:59
nothing that that could offer any clue as to where her daughter was when she returned home she called
00:06:05
The Long View police and reported her daughter missing with the announcement of her child's disappearance the police
00:06:12
and Community organized and conducted an intensive search for the little girl but
00:06:18
just like Danielle they didn't find Rema and they didn't find any clues despite no one coming forward saying that they
00:06:24
saw the little girl abducted police actually had Suspects one suspect was a friend of rema's stepfather the suspect
00:06:33
was 26-year-old Joseph condro investigators questioned him during their initial 1985 investigation but
00:06:41
there was no evidence linking Joseph to her case unfortunately Rema never returned and eventually the trail went
00:06:48
cold the case remained opened and unsolved then over a decade later on November 21st
00:06:57
1996 at 75 a.m. Larry Holden dropped off his niece and his fiance's daughter at school his niece is Yolanda Patterson
00:07:07
and his fiance's daughter is 12-year-old Cara Rudd after Larry drove off a 1982 Pontiac Firebird pulled up to the
00:07:16
sidewalk the driver is now 37-year-old Joseph condro both girls knew condro the girls actually lived together Larry has
00:07:27
custody of his niece and he lives with his fiance Janet Cara's mother Joseph condro stayed for a brief time at their
00:07:35
home so when condro pulled over in his car the girls came running over to talk to him Cara got in the car while Yolanda
00:07:44
stayed outside Joseph and Cara had some kind of conversation carara gets out of the car
00:07:50
and tells Yolanda that she wants to skip school and go out to Willow grve there's
00:07:55
a pig farm out there and she wants to play with the piglets Yol wants none of this because if she skipped school they
00:08:02
could get caught and then they would be in trouble Yolanda starts making her way
00:08:07
to the school building condro drives off the last time Yolanda saw Cara she was walking East on Hemlock Street the
00:08:15
school principal is going to call Cara's mother to let her know that she was missing from school and then Cara is
00:08:21
never going to show up to the house that evening police instituted a CommunityWide search Cara's mother Janet
00:08:29
almost immediately suspected Joseph condro of abducting her daughter she called him repeatedly he called her back
00:08:37
returning her call she picked up the phone but for some reason her answering machine picked up and then recorded a
00:08:43
conversation in which she accuses him of abducting Cara everybody suspects that Cara went to the pig farm so police are
00:08:51
going to make contact with the owner Pete yeah he said that he wasn't home during the time frame in question and he
00:08:56
also said he did not suspect that anyone visited his property while he was gone mhm because of Yolanda's story about
00:09:02
seeing condro outside of the school police like Janet were suspicious they questioned him he claimed to have an
00:09:09
alibi but there was no one to back up his Alibi in fact there was at least one person that came forward and said his
00:09:16
Alibi was false here's another case that we're missing a kid that knows condro and he's a suspect but we have no body
00:09:25
we have no evidence and we have a crappy alibi so police start talking to everyone that knows condro they need to
00:09:32
get a handle on this guy they talk to his ex-wife Julie West and they learn a good deal of info from her one thing of
00:09:40
importance she said that the same day that Cara went missing she was in Joseph's car when she went to move the
00:09:48
seat back she saw a hairbrush under the seat and she said that it looked like a hairbrush that would belong to a little
00:09:55
girl so she said that she later called Cara's mother and and they talked about the brush her mother said Cara carried
00:10:02
around a hairbrush just like the one that she saw in condro car so condo's ex-wife Julie Wes gets into his car the
00:10:11
day that Cara goes missing sees a brush talks to the mother they confirm that it's possibly Cara's brush now she's
00:10:18
going to go to police with this information yeah and the weird thing here is after she's done talking to the
00:10:24
police she gets a call from condro he wants to know what she told police what is going on with the investigation and
00:10:33
what do the detectives know right Julie tells him very little and then he threatens her with bodily harm telling
00:10:41
her she is not to talk to the police again well God bless Julie because she tells a detective about this phone call
00:10:49
and the detective goes to the home of a judge to secure an arrest warrant for Joseph condro they arrest him that day
00:10:57
for tampering with a witness they lock him up at the county jail booked him on $25,000 bail and that amount soon
00:11:05
doubled because the law was finally catching up to condro he's also arraigned on child molestation and rape
00:11:11
charges this is from a completely different incident and it was while he was sitting there in jail waiting for
00:11:18
trial on these different charges that police are talking to everyone that knows condro yeah they learned that he
00:11:24
liked to hang out sometimes at a vacant decaying house on Mount solo this is just west of Long View on January 4th
00:11:33
1997 less than two months after Cara's disappearance police were searching a remote wooded Hillside at the mount solo
00:11:41
area They Came Upon A Ravine and spotted a rusted red Volkswagen with no tires or
00:11:47
Wheels inside the vehicle they found Cara's black Reebok shirt this car was tipped up so it's it's lying on its side
00:11:55
but underneath the car they find the body of a female fale with her head toward the rear and her feet beneath the
00:12:01
passenger side door officers used a wench to tip the car back up and they brought out forensic technicians they
00:12:09
took all relevant samples before cutting down a tree a nearby tree to remove the
00:12:14
Volkswagen from the immediate scene and process it further the upper part of the
00:12:20
Torso was badly decomposed and several of the ribs showed evidence of animal predation but the lower half of the body
00:12:28
had been well preserved by being completely under the car Underpants and a pair of black shorts matching the
00:12:34
description of what Cara was wearing were on the body after collecting samples in the immediate vicinity the
00:12:41
crime scene text loosen loosen the dirt under the corpse so that they could slip
00:12:47
two body bags over it one from each end they were taped together and sealed and the body transported to the State Crime
00:12:55
Lab dental records confirmed the body is carried the County coroner Gary Greg declared
00:13:02
that she died from homicidal Violence by unknown means pieces of physical evidence
00:13:08
including all of the clothing found on and around the body were sent to an independent lab in San Diego Sean
00:13:16
deposits on Cara's body and clothing tied Joseph condro directly to the murder now that they have evidence
00:13:23
against condro he's already sitting in prison they're still looking at him for two other crimes so for two years condra
00:13:31
refused to cooperate with investigators even though his DNA linked him to Cara's
00:13:36
body but then the trial begins and in a bombshell courtroom announcement condro pled guilty to raping and strangling
00:13:44
Cara and killing Rema Traxler 14 years earlier in his confession he said he saw Rema when he was driving to a local
00:13:52
store to buy beer and cigarettes Joseph said he took Rema to a swimming hole on Germany Creek in Long View and strangled
00:13:59
her he claimed he buried her in a shallow grave near the location he agreed to deal with prosecutors which
00:14:06
allowed him to confess to murdering both Rema and Cara and avoiding the death penalty investigators searched the area
00:14:14
in 1999 but were unable to locate any sign of rema's body God bless murder victim Cara Rudd because of her
00:14:21
courageous fight to live and the forensic evidence collected because of that fight her killer Joseph condra was
00:14:28
caught and the murder of Rema Traxler years earlier was finally solved when asked about Joseph condro the County
00:14:36
prosecutor who participated in the legal proceedings against condro said quote I
00:14:41
have only twice in 25 years felt the presence of true evil when condro and I would look at each other in the
00:14:48
courtroom it was a feeling that there was nothing there in those eyes I just never got any shred of humanity from
00:14:57
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50% the Angie's List you know and trust is now Angie and we're so much more than
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job done right get started at angie.com that's a ngi or download the app [Music]
00:17:10
[Music] today all right cheers mates and make sure you go to the website true Crim
00:17:19
garage.com we have three different tank tops that are available for pre-order right now so check those out cheers to
00:17:26
you captain and cheers to the great John Douglas mm so Mr Douglas was kind enough to sit down with us and
00:17:34
discuss some of his expertise particularly in this case and if people don't know who John Douglas is he's
00:17:42
responsible for what he's largely responsible for the what is typically known as the Behavioral Science unit at
00:17:50
the FBI which has inspired movies like Silence of the Lambs the series mind Hunter and many others and just like so
00:17:58
many many times before John Douglas went to the prison and interviewed Joseph condro put the lotion in the basket all
00:18:05
right so it's time for everybody to say bye to me because I wasn't invited to the interview well maybe next time
00:18:12
captain now here's my interview with John [Music] [Music] Douglas regarding the Joseph condro case
00:18:29
what can you tell us about the mount solo area and why police were searching there and what they found the area where
00:18:35
where the where the disposal site you know occurred uh that's where they would find uh one of the victims uh in a um
00:18:45
you know in Volkswagen uh that he placed in uh placed in I think it was a a concealed a good concealed area to
00:18:53
dispose of the uh you know of the body and uh kro as far as uh getting like into his history uh too he
00:19:06
was when I did the interview with him it it was pretty much predictable that one
00:19:10
day that he would be perpetrating crimes uh like the ones that he that he did he
00:19:16
was he was abused as a child um he had alcoholic parents he two uh an alcoholic was a uh was a bully what uh
00:19:28
was interesting with him was that as he Grew Older he U stayed fixated on on very very young children he was fixated
00:19:38
on him when he was young but then as he Grew Older he just stayed fixated with you know with these young children the
00:19:45
the crimes that he perpetrated they got him on two they think that he could have
00:19:49
done as many as seven I think that what makes the case so unusual with him I I really didn't have I didn't understand
00:19:57
it and had ask him the question is you're killing your friend's children why I mean why are you killing your your
00:20:05
friend's children and he said it's just uh you know it's just easy he says by attacking strangers you have control uh
00:20:13
control issues and cuz they'll fight back but by going after my friend's children that uh I would not have that
00:20:21
have that problem I said yeah but then you'd be an obvious uh obvious suspect wouldn't you and he said I was a suspect
00:20:29
but they they never could come up with anything Plus at the time far as post defense what he would do he would
00:20:35
participate in searches he would console the parents of uh you know of the victim so he may have
00:20:43
been under suspicion but they really never they never looked at you know him you know hard until like obviously when
00:20:50
he found the body and his only mistake is when they found the body in that hidden in the in the Volkswagen was that
00:20:57
he he didn't do a better job of concealing the body and that he got caught nothing as far as remorse towards
00:21:04
the victims or the families of the victim is just that uh you know that he got caught after months prosecutors
00:21:11
offered condro a deal so he could avoid the death penalty if he gave a full confession can you talk about his
00:21:17
confession and some of the details that he offered up he was offered a deal to to escape the death penalty although
00:21:23
they they still believed that he was responsible for others and and even after they made the deal they were still
00:21:28
trying to cuz he made a deal just on on the two hiso you know was to obviously he's close you know close to the uh you
00:21:37
the children but the details in fact I I actually did uh this uh for MSNBC and they they really didn't they cut out all
00:21:46
the details of the crime itself is how he he he tricked uh one of the victims for example they had a code word uh and
00:21:56
the family said okay now um unless you say the word person says the word unicorn that's going to be our our our
00:22:02
password that feel free to go with whomever is asking for that password unfortunately he knew what the
00:22:10
password was and he picks up this uh the girl and he said young child and he says
00:22:16
he knows you know he's going to kill her there's no doubt about her as soon as she got into the car I'm going to to
00:22:22
kill her he takes her to this remote area he goes through all the the details the spefic specific details the Gory
00:22:29
details of of how he he was raped raped the victim how he uh strangled the victim trying to drown the victim how
00:22:38
difficult it was to strangle you know he's telling John it takes a lot of body strength to kill somebody through manual
00:22:44
strangulation and he said I didn't I didn't uh know that and then even after doing all that he still decided to you
00:22:50
know bash her her head in with a u you know with a a large a large branch it was just kind of remarkable that again
00:23:01
it it's the kind of emotionalist uh uh no no empathy uh the only time he showed some kind of some kind of emotional
00:23:10
reaction was really about himself and about his his own children his upbringing but like even with his own
00:23:18
children I brought up the question I said what if somebody would uh would go after your children and he said you know
00:23:25
I would uh you know I want them punished I I would you know I would kill him so so he's just coming from two different
00:23:32
points of view and and what he did too as as so many of them will do is they use they don't always want to accept
00:23:39
responsibility 100% so they'll blame they they'll project it and projected on sometimes the victim sometimes
00:23:46
children's parents you know maybe they're too too trusting I had a case in Florida where I was interviewing a
00:23:54
rapist and he was you know telling me that that um I said why did you pick this particular victim and he well she
00:24:00
was in sitting on a bar stool in a diner at night time and was obviously didn't have any underwear on so she was know
00:24:08
she was looking for it you know it's it's like her fault you find this so much with people like condro and others
00:24:16
with him and I KN I already knew the answer to it it was really a crime of of power where he never thought he had
00:24:23
power that he he felt in his life he was like U like one grain of sand on a beach
00:24:28
of billions and billions of Sands uh and grains of sand and how could this inadequate nobody become a somebody and
00:24:37
and and so he had a lot of this aggression in his how he become a somebody how he can retaliate you know
00:24:44
for his poor upbringing and those in his mind who did him wrong was to retaliate
00:24:50
by by killing you know killing others but again he's the only only uh serial offender I've ever interviewed who
00:24:59
attacked attacked uh his friends his friend's children which was just so so bizarre he's serving a life sentence and
00:25:06
you went to interview him in prison just like you've done with so many other Killers how do you prepare for these
00:25:13
types of interviews the preparation for the interviews is very different than what you see on television and what and
00:25:19
even in a mind Hunter where they go into the prison and uh they have a tape recorder on and taking notes when when I
00:25:27
do the interview I go into the police files first the medical examiner reports I have all that I I look at the
00:25:35
circumstances of how he was apprehended if he gave a confession did he volunteer
00:25:40
the confession or was it or they just kind of you know worked them over for a period of of time uh when I get to the
00:25:47
prison itself I then go into the into review the police records the file the files I should say in corrections but
00:25:54
that they have built up over the past years you know on him see if he how he's being analyzed and by psychologist you
00:26:02
know there and so when I walk into to the room I will not have any any notes I won't have notes I won't have tape
00:26:11
recorders anything anything like that because I I found early on when we did that when we interviewed say uh Charles
00:26:19
banson Ed keer we had a small tape recorder and was a little cassette and they were they didn't like that they
00:26:27
were very very paranoid uh they live in a and they should be paranoid living where they are in a prison where you
00:26:36
can't turn your back on someone without fear of being being uh being knifed they
00:26:44
don't want to be perceived as a snitch or anything like that so by having a tape recorder or notes they you know
00:26:50
what are you going to do with this stuff you know you know and so finally I decided no this I have to go in there we
00:26:57
had a 57 page protocol interview protocol that was developed by uh with us and Dr Anne Burgess at Boston College
00:27:05
she in the show mind Hunter is the Wendy but really in reality an was not a psychologist telling us how to do the
00:27:12
interviews we knew that she was helping us on the academic side developing the this instrument 57 Pages thousands of
00:27:20
questions concerning the victim victim selection uh the subject the pre- offense post offense Behavior all that
00:27:28
stuff so we would fill that out that would be pretty much a good chunk of that would be filled out before going in
00:27:34
and then the rest you'd have to memorize and that all had to do with with uh the
00:27:38
crime the crime and the the uh offender and the approach would be more conversational it's not it's always
00:27:48
positive you may even give them kind of some false hopes that you know that the ward knows you're cooperating with us
00:27:53
here we're helping what you're doing is helping us who we're receiving cases from all over the world now and and
00:28:02
we're going to apply what we learn from you and others to these other cases seeing if there are in fact the
00:28:08
similarities that can cross over into these other you know other crimes so you do you do that if you do it right they
00:28:17
they don't want you to leave they don't want you uh you you begin to even tell them as you gain an experience they want
00:28:23
to know about themselves what do you think what made me tick what what and then some of them are are very arrogant
00:28:29
uh very arrogant that uh bragging about how the crimes that they did and that you you know that they're so good uh
00:28:38
yeah they made a mistake they got caught but that was it was a fluke if I can go
00:28:43
off a little bit I interviewed a an airplane Skyjacker one time who was shot uh he was shot at Kennedy Airport he
00:28:50
skyjacked an air airplane from uh LA to New York he said John you never could couldn't catch me if I was a fugitive
00:28:59
you have to cut off all contact with your families Christmas time we know Christmas time the holidays FBI police
00:29:05
you know they looking for mail and and I said well we really we can't catch you no I said well just listen his name was
00:29:12
Gary Trapnell and he wrote a book called The Fox is crazy too and and he uh I said Gary you went off on a Deep End
00:29:20
crime wise when your when your dad died your dad was really a military hero he he's buried at Arlington Cemetery and I
00:29:27
I actually went to his grave to and and saw where he was buried and he was shocked that I had done that so now he's
00:29:33
just looking at me now you're telling me that we can't uh can't catch you because
00:29:38
you're just so Swift you know you're a lot smarter than us I said what if I told the FBI or police I said at around
00:29:45
the time of your uh around the holidays Christmas holidays uh and around your dad's birthday and the date your dad
00:29:54
died that we should search uh set up a surveillance uh in Arlington Cemetery where your dad is buried as I'm saying
00:30:04
that I don't even complete the sentence he starts shaking his head side to side smiling and he says you got me and he
00:30:13
says you did it right and he says yeah he says you know I I did it and so those are the kind of things and and after a
00:30:22
while you kind of get good at you start you start seeing these patterns so the offender they start asking you about
00:30:29
they want to know about you know you know themselves or how was I created and and why do you think I did the things
00:30:37
that uh that I did so I'll do that but I'll also tell them about the crime that I where I don't know anything about the
00:30:45
crime other than I'm here to learn about but I'll tell them about themselves at at around the time the crime was
00:30:53
committed the behavior leading up to the crime what was going on in their life what they did after the after the crime
00:31:00
based upon you can't do it on every case but it's based upon how that crime is interpreted interpreted you know you
00:31:07
know by me looking at it and reviewing you know all of the material it's interesting it's interesting for me
00:31:13
interesting interesting as well for them and uh that created by doing that they end up creating a criminal profiling
00:31:20
went from a program to a major unit within the FBI that's still it's even grown today it's even Bigg than it was
00:31:28
when I was in what are you hoping to learn about the killer during these interviews I'm trying to learn the wise
00:31:34
of the behavior this the formula I've used and I've mentioned in this book and other books why plus how equals who well
00:31:40
now we have the who in this case it's not on subcase on on subject case we got the guy why why and how of of the behav
00:31:49
behavior and see you know is there anything that he's can tell us that uh that I can apply to another you know
00:31:59
other cases I mean what he's telling us for example injecting himself into into the uh like investigation or
00:32:07
participating in searches if you notice in the in the same book The Killer across the table Joseph mowan did the
00:32:14
same thing he was school teacher when he killed a brownie a Joan delandro So we see see a pattern uh you know like that
00:32:23
uh you know as well and so a lot of these cases you go and and you kind of know you're not expecting to get a whole
00:32:31
lot of information out of him but there may be a question like just one question
00:32:37
you just you need to know that could really help you give an example uh Dennis Raider the BTK Strangler um he's
00:32:45
on in this book he's in another book I I did because I interviewed him and I did
00:32:48
the cases over the years from when he first killed in the 70s until 80 in the 80s he was apprehended in the 90s by I
00:32:57
interviewed him I wanted to know why he stopped for years at a time you know that's because in law enforcement we
00:33:05
think oh the guy moved to another area uh or he's incarcerated or he died he just couldn't stop no one can commit the
00:33:13
kind of crimes that the BTK was committing and just stopped what happened Dennis why did you stop he said
00:33:20
one day I came home from work early it was lunchtime I decided to put the victim's clothing on he would souvenirs
00:33:27
and momentos he would keep the clothing of the victims and he would crossdressing the victims and then he
00:33:33
would put a plastic mask over his face and then he would draw in like lipstick and no uh uh eyebrows the nose and he
00:33:42
would then reflect his image in a mirror and sometimes he would take pictures you
00:33:46
know of himself well on this one day guess what he's married has two children living in about 1200t house little tiny
00:33:54
house but he has all the m and belongings of victims secreted hidden from the rest of the family his wife
00:34:02
walks in on him and so what the hell is this scares the hell out of him and he says well I got this problem I this
00:34:10
crossdressing he didn't tell her that the clothing is from his victims nor did she realize that she was married to the
00:34:17
BTK Strangler so that he said John that that scared the hell out of me I thought
00:34:22
you know for sure uh you know that you know this may leak out or she may tell somebody who then goes and tells the
00:34:28
police so he stopped for a couple of years and and then once again he did it he went a couple years but then he did
00:34:35
it again and and uh his got caught for the second time by his wife his wife almost let him left him and scared the
00:34:42
Daylights out of him so he did he did stop a couple of more years and then went into hiding again and then the last
00:34:50
time that would create his apprehension and caus his apprehension was that there
00:34:54
was a lawyer who was writing a a um a book about the BTK Strangler and in his mind I mean the thinking is crazy if
00:35:03
anyone's going to write a book it's good to be me he says well who's going how you going to publish a book he says well
00:35:08
I'm going to write the book I'm going to hide the book and who knows maybe 100 years from now they'll find it someplace
00:35:13
where I'll bury it and they'll realize I was the BTK the BTK uh you know Strangler so this this um lawyer by
00:35:22
writing that book spurred on um Dennis raid to the BTK Str wrer and then he started communicating with not just only
00:35:30
the lawyer but with the press as well as um TV stations and then he made a uh flagrant error when the police uh he
00:35:40
asked the police if he could uh If he if he sends a floppy disc uh to them uh to
00:35:47
prove that he's the BTK uh like pictures of evidence things like that which would
00:35:51
be evidence but like crime scene photos that he took would you be able to to trace back to him he asked and of course
00:35:58
the police said no well he submits the floppy they bring in computer guys and you really need didn't have to be much
00:36:05
of an expert as soon as they put it in a floppy disc in they see that uh Dennis Raider name is a president of Christ
00:36:13
Lutheran Church in Witchita uh Witchita Kansas how smart he thought he was uh he
00:36:19
got caught by making a dumb mistake but the point is going back to the interview
00:36:22
you go in and just you know wanting to ask just certain things that see that pretty well haven't figured out but
00:36:29
things can and is there anything we can learn to prevent prevent this from occurring you know maybe do we see a
00:36:35
trend in their backgrounds of I mean what would they like as children were their were their red flags forensic
00:36:40
flags as a young kid that maybe a school teacher could have picked up on or anything like that and we started seeing
00:36:46
that in these interviews some Flags such as animal cruelty we saw a trend in that
00:36:52
and it early is the early 1980s and it's not until just a year ago ago a year ago
00:36:57
that now after all these years that the FBI has a a category animal cruelty in the Uniform Crime Report so every you
00:37:05
when the police fills out that there were crimes in their cities they uh they'll have that category because they
00:37:13
recognize that that that there is a a often times a stepping stone from animal cruelty to Violent Behavior did you find
00:37:21
any animal cruelty in cra's background yeah condro yeah condra had animal cruel in his background I'm trying to think
00:37:28
specifically what he did they don't always have it but but he there was some early on in in uh in his life with I
00:37:37
think dogs or cats and he was also a bully in school as well as in fact the other the other ones we interviewed as
00:37:44
well in in this particular book we found the animal cruelty in their background I
00:37:50
I speak at the SPCA in Canada last couple years and they can investigate they have an investigative arm and
00:37:55
they're SP SPCA they have seen links as well between this animal cruelty and this progression from elementary school
00:38:04
they note this they follow it along and and sure enough start getting into uh the high school you start seeing crimes
00:38:13
progress and and violent violent types of crimes progress did he ask you what you thought made him a killer it's like
00:38:22
so and so many of them do with conro it was it's the life it's you cannot say and like same thing with condro that
00:38:30
condro what you did is is non excusable for for but you you have the ability to make choices but I can understand
00:38:39
because how you raised you pretty much abandoned neglected neglected as a as a child he turned to alcohol at an early
00:38:49
age uh and again there was there was this uh cruelty in his mind toward him from family schoolmates so so it was it
00:39:01
was predictable that something like this would happen not that everyone's going to grow up to be in his case a serial
00:39:06
killer but it depends on individually how this person responds the person can respond by internalizing it and turn to
00:39:13
alcohol drugs he did some of that but some of them go so far as commit suicide Others May survive depending if
00:39:21
they have a significant person comes in contact with the with them but it has to
00:39:26
be early on in their you know in their life with him as he got older you can't change him you can't you can't
00:39:33
rehabilitate at that point in time because and what I've said is you can't really rehabilitate someone who's really
00:39:41
not habilitated you know to begin with I mean trying to get him back to when to what uh I mean his whole life has been
00:39:49
has been uh a Hell in in their minds and then the crimes that they committed I mean it's in their the way of thinking
00:39:58
they're Justified it's Justified as poor me it's po it's always a poor me not the
00:40:02
poor victim it's poor me with Joseph condro do you believe that an admitted child killer could go from 1985 to 1996
00:40:11
without killing no no I don't you have to look deep into the case but to go that long let's say with condro no
00:40:19
there's others and and he hinted during the the interview at first he said you know I can't talk about other cases but
00:40:25
then I asked him the interview are there are there other cases and he said yes there are other cases and and I know
00:40:31
that and the police would been trying to solve them you just can't turn it off they used to say it was like burnout
00:40:37
there'd be a burnout factor and uh no there isn't any you know any burnout because and and with sexually motivated
00:40:46
crimes they thought there was uh that that was the connection that is a sex crime so they they'll be this burnout
00:40:52
the person gets older it's not true it's not there may be sex involved in the case
00:41:00
these are crimes of power and and anger and dominance and it's fueled by by fantasy and most of them have a a early
00:41:08
Fantasy Life of what they want to do if they have the opportunity uh for to committing a crime to U Dennis Raider
00:41:15
had it you know KRA had it too and the fantasies are sometimes from an evidentiary standpoint uh they may write
00:41:22
out uh their fantasies in books or they actually will draw drawings like Dennis Raider did of um of what he would how he
00:41:30
would torture his victims and the fantasy the fantasy is better than reality with uh you know with them uh
00:41:38
like condro you like Raider like some of the others and the current uh the current book because in fantasy
00:41:46
everything works perfectly they're they're the they're the the writer the producer the director uh and uh the
00:41:54
actor and and they it's perfect but in in the reality when they perpetrate the crime and I'll tell you
00:42:00
this things didn't go you know as planned I didn't expect the victim to fight back as hard as the uh you know as
00:42:07
she did or you know or he did I didn't I didn't expect I didn't realize what it would take this much strength to uh to
00:42:14
manually strangle I wasn't prepared for the victim to start you know crying and sobbing begging for the life I that I I
00:42:22
wasn't prepared you know to hear you know you know to hear that so it it just never it's never as good as the fantasy
00:42:29
so therefore if it's not as good as the fantasy they keep trying they keep trying to perfect the crime and and
00:42:38
reach a point where one day it'll be just everything will be perfect uh because like Dennis Raider and so and
00:42:44
the other and other ones too here here their real fantasy would be if they could have a a a victim whatever their
00:42:51
victim preference is captive and as a slave slave type of thing and do as they please with the do as they please with
00:43:00
the victim you see it on the West Coast you had lak and in you listeners will probably heard of them lening and and
00:43:07
we've had uh in this in this uh current book Cod Kap who's kept the victim uh in
00:43:14
a in a storage container for a period of two two months or so down in South Carolina that's the scenario that
00:43:20
they're looking for that that's what Dennis Raider really wanted to do uh you know you know him you know himself but
00:43:27
uh it never worked out uh it never worked out that way you've been face to face with some of the most notorious
00:43:33
killers and just some real real life monsters what in your opinion is the appropriate punishment for the worst of
00:43:41
the worst for the worst of the worst we're where we're talking about we have plenty of and a series of I say a series
00:43:49
of crimes or mass mass crime mass murders things like that I I I believe I an i eye for an eye on those types of uh
00:43:59
cases but it has to be like you say the worst of the worst when when I when Scot
00:44:05
Glen the actor came back to quanico I I I made him listen to a tape that I had from two rapist out of uh California
00:44:16
named biter and Norris go Glen was living up in Idaho and he was you know he's didn't believe in you know death
00:44:25
penalty and um I let him listen to the tapes because these two rapists were now rehabilitated back into society which
00:44:36
was a joke and their fantasy that unbeknownst to the to the people who released them was to rape and murder
00:44:42
teenagers for every year of a teenager's life so they started at 13 would go up to 19 years of age and they killed I
00:44:50
think it about six five or six and and what uh was worse of the worse was that they would torture the victims and audio
00:44:59
tape the torturing and bier's nickname was pliers Bier that's his nickname in prism when I interviewed him and uh uh
00:45:08
by that he would they would use these different tools to torture and I could I couldn't I have a hard time listening to
00:45:15
it when I would train police and I only played it for really not that long for Scott Glenn who got real emotionally s i
00:45:24
I didn't believe in the death panal but I said I could see where it can apply in
00:45:29
a case like this cuz this is really you know you know horrific uh so I feel strong about that but then since I've
00:45:38
left the bureau I've helped free uh Amanda Knox I was involved in that case I helped uh uh Damien Eckles Jesse
00:45:47
Baldwin uh Jesse Miss Kelly and Jason Baldwin in the west Memphis 3 case where three 8-year-old boys were killed they
00:45:54
were falsely accused of killing them I've been involved with Johnny Ramsey going into the case thinking there's a
00:46:01
good chance the ramies were responsible but looking at the case working testifying uh in the grand jury they had
00:46:10
nothing to do with the you know with that uh case they've been re you know revictimized so then I I see and I was
00:46:16
just on a paddle up in New York two weeks ago with with Amanda Knox and Damen Eckles you know discussing you
00:46:24
know their you know their cases and here these these people here unfortunately there was no evidence there was nothing
00:46:31
forensically linking either either of them to the to to the uh to the case it was police using theories to drive the
00:46:41
investigation and when anytime there was any forensic evidence taking of them away from their Theory they would ignore
00:46:48
that evidence they would they would ignore it and the theory like with Damon and even with Amanda Knox was that these
00:46:54
were some kind of sat anic murders with Daman Eckles it was in the early 90s and
00:46:59
people police particularly uh were attending seminars on satanic murders they had pictures of kids on me on um
00:47:07
milk boxes saying there's 50,000 kids are being abducted we don't know where they are you know they're like this you
00:47:14
know you know making it sound like it's a satanic you know satanic uh you know murders and the same thing with with
00:47:21
Amanda Knox with her her prosecutor same thing was trying to make this s satanic
00:47:27
murder because he did this before in the monster Florence case where Douglas Preston the author he uh he was going to
00:47:34
arrest Douglas Preston he thought Douglas Preston was the monster of Florence so this is who she was dealing
00:47:40
dealing with so then I see those cases and I I I get concerned so you you better have more you better have
00:47:49
forensic evidence and you better not rely just on some jailhouse snitch or rely on on uh eyewitness eyewitness uh
00:47:59
testimony uh which is uh is faulty and then you got to watch even the collection and the collection and
00:48:06
preservation of evidence to make sure that was done you know correctly and so I really it if you're could to use it I
00:48:14
mean I'm satisfied with with life without parole ever having parole uh but unless unless that inmate kills a guard
00:48:22
then you got to execute him if he kills a guard and and prison because you have to go in these prisons to see how R
00:48:29
unruly they can be how dangerous of a position it is and if a guy is in there or you know life in prison if he can't
00:48:36
get the death sentence I mean what's to stop him from killing a guard or killing
00:48:40
another another uh you know inmate but it it has to be help for just certain types of you know certain types of uh
00:48:48
you know of cases uh but not uh yeah but I I have question some of these some since I retired from the bureau I just
00:48:57
wondered if when we got cases if the evidence was collected properly if the medical examiner in fact was uh
00:49:06
certified the I should say forensic pathologist was certified and what I've seen since then because when I was in
00:49:13
the bureau I couldn't do cases for the defense uh and so we just can't do it but now every once in a while I'll get a
00:49:21
case see a case and and uh you know sometimes no they they're guilty of sin but other times you'll see and oh my God
00:49:28
this is uh it's pretty bad but there uh everyone's looking for DNA today well DNA with the DNA will free well not
00:49:37
every case has DNA you you're having the CSI effect with with jurors uh looking waiting for the DNA okay present the DNA
00:49:46
well there may not be you know DNA it may not be DNA to help free somebody you know from prison who may be uh may be
00:49:53
wrongfully convicted and so changed my attitude cuz I I when I first started I said oh yeah everyone I'm innocent oh
00:50:01
yeah yeah you're innocent everybody you got a prison full of innocent people but
00:50:05
then you start seeing you know that um uh with certain indiv certain cases certain individuals certain departments
00:50:13
you question you question uh you know the uh you question them uh if they've done really a a capable credible and you
00:50:23
know honest job what would you considered to be your most successful interview and why they' all everyone you
00:50:30
get a little bit different keer was good Ed keer was one of the earlier ones and
00:50:34
why and the reason because he's so smart uh he has 145 you know IQ so so he he he
00:50:42
could be very introspective and and he's and he's articulate he was very good the
00:50:50
one in this current book Todd Kap another guy I mean who committed very unusual uh
00:50:58
crimes he would retaliate against someone uh to get even and and uh just don't cross his path or cross him up
00:51:09
he'll he'll come back and and and and he was very int introspective I had him right fill out actually the 57 page form
00:51:18
and he and he gave me that plus plus heck of a lot a lot more and uh you just learned you can you just learned so much
00:51:28
from him everyone gives you something but of the best I mean like Manson he's all right but you pretty well have a
00:51:34
good handle on Manson when you when you go in there you know and you can see some of the Antics he played with me he
00:51:40
did at the George span Ranch where he George span Ranch preaching to his followers he sat
00:51:46
up on a a rock whereas with me he sits up on top of a chair or in from the chair to a Kenza and you let him do it
00:51:56
he's 5'2 I'm 6'2 and and I I don't want to intimidate I want him to talk you know to talk friendly but you're not
00:52:04
going to you're not going to learn a whole lot you know you know from him uh maybe what you learn from him is is the
00:52:12
the charismatic personality that he has where then you can see that passed over into other crimes similar such as Jim
00:52:22
Jones in Guana the charismatic personality or or the Waco Texas and and so you see
00:52:29
that how you can have this charismatic articulate person now um in his case kind of almost like a a prophet look
00:52:38
like a a prophet plays a little bit of the guitar but but really he was primarily interested in sex drugs and
00:52:44
rock and roll I mean that was pretty much it and he had a lot of the we call these gopher
00:52:49
personalities these young kids looking for something in life that they're that is better than where they're coming
00:52:57
from even though their families majority of them were fairly well off families and that's where they were rebelling
00:53:03
against and he just kind of simplifies life and he he wasn't big on the use of drugs but he would would uh administer
00:53:11
drugs to everyone else kind of orchestrate things and then with women he would have sex with the women but
00:53:20
then he would have the women uh then he would script them like fantasizing like they having sex with like their father
00:53:27
and he was like this father this father you know you know image so you so you get you just experiencing his
00:53:35
personality and and we interviewed some of the Manson family members Squeaky from Sandra good uh you know Tex Watson
00:53:42
we interviewed interviewed you can see you can see these kind of people how these Gophers how they can easily be you
00:53:53
know easily be be manipulated uh you know by someone who's criminally smart uh you know he
00:54:02
spent the majority of his life in prison and uh and here these kids are just coming from pretty much you upper class
00:54:10
middle class families and and could be easily uh uh manipulated and dominated by a guy like
00:54:17
Manson do you think that teex Watson was trying to take over the leadership role
00:54:21
from Charles Manson I don't know I don't we never got that you know from him you
00:54:27
know he certainly was one of the Smart Ones he was a smart you know kid at the time and uh that never came
00:54:37
across yeah but but he too you start wondering he as you probably know he's a minister at in
00:54:45
prison uh he's been on that for for years what we found when you ask when you ask people what if you had the
00:54:54
violent potentially violent people or the violent people what jobs if you could do it again would you like to have
00:55:00
and they would like to be ministers and counselors and uh of some type and law enforcement you know like you know
00:55:07
psychological counselors and and when you think of it these are positions of uh Power uh you're you're listening to
00:55:15
people's weaknesses and and you can you can really take advantage you can take advantage of people uh like that we've
00:55:24
seen people in those businesses I just mentioned who have done exactly like that for real and and so here you have
00:55:31
and that's what makes them attractive so lo and behold we got Tex Watson uh minister of course he's trying to get
00:55:40
out of prison too be pared he should stay right where where he is for the rest of his life and you got David
00:55:46
burkit up in uh well he was Attica when I interviewed him but I'm not sure where
00:55:52
he is now but but he he's also one of these so-called ministers but you can see why you can see why he would be he
00:55:59
was definitely looking for this power when he was perpetrating those crimes up in New York when I pulled out the New
00:56:06
York daily news and I showed him that Son of Sam terrorizes New York City I me his eyes blue eyes just kind of lit up
00:56:13
and he's looking at me and he looks at my partner who was doing the interview you with May back back and forth and and
00:56:20
to see if you know we're not trying to pull the wool over his eyes you know that 100 years uh David everyone's going
00:56:27
to know you no one's going to know me but everyone's going to know you the Son of Sam of New York City and uh I just
00:56:36
kind of he just kind of you know opened up so everyone you get a little bit something but uh some a little bit some
00:56:42
of the the ones that are are fairly smart Dennis Raider is not smart Dennis Raider was lucky uh he he wasn't really
00:56:49
that uh you know that intelligent and and he got caught making a dumb mistake sometimes they they get caught because
00:56:57
they feel like they're Invincible uh they can do anything and they're just so much smarter than police and that's
00:57:04
usually the the time we catch them is when they they start doing whatever they're doing the crimes they committing
00:57:09
maybe with more frequency but they becoming more of a risk taker and then they that's unfortunately we have to
00:57:15
wait for that time before they can be uh be identified one thing I've always wanted to ask you about John and this is
00:57:22
because I don't think that the general public has a great understanding of how important this is when you're trying to
00:57:28
profile a criminal could you explain to us how important victimology is when you're putting together your criminal
00:57:35
profile that's a good good question on vict victimology and because and why it's a good question too is is because
00:57:42
when police submit a case often times they just kind of skim over the background you know of the victim you
00:57:49
don't provide enough in you know information uh on the victim I'm trying to give a give an example a c a case
00:57:58
comes in and uh they may they may say well the girl the woman you she was promiscuous or something or uh you know
00:58:06
what what do you mean I mean what do you mean by that or what we have to have years ago years and years ago I know my
00:58:13
dad mom were alive and I as a kid there was a show this is your life and someone
00:58:18
would come out behind the screen and start talking about their life to to to the uh and
00:58:26
you're trying to you're supposed to guess who this person is and when I ask for police I said tell police to do
00:58:33
victimology you have to find out everything about this victim I want to know I'm trying to figure out why this
00:58:39
victim was a victim of a crime was it was it he or she a victim of opportunity uh in the wrong place at the wrong time
00:58:46
is there something that the victim was was involved with you know here that increased the uh the risk level um give
00:58:55
example say a woman's driving down a highway runs out of gasoline uh a trucker come by or someone in the car
00:59:04
offers offers a ride shows up missing and final body she's dead so we had we start off with a and that's a difficult
00:59:10
Case by the way to solve because we start we start off with a with a very lowrisk victim she car breaks down runs
00:59:17
out of gas whatever goes with somebody she doesn't know she's increased the risk level uh and to become the victim
00:59:23
of violent crime the body in all probability will be disposed uh uh outside uh leaving very little forensic
00:59:31
evidence to you know to work with plus it it also shows the mobility you know of the U of the offender um in the area
00:59:40
of of rape for example because a lot of people think all we do a Serial murder cases we do do every kind of case really
00:59:46
and every you could do assessments you can do public corruption assessments police corruption you could do uh arson
00:59:53
bombings prodct tamper refering extortion you know kidnappings in the area of rape they'll come back and
00:59:59
they'll say you know the uh the victim was raped the subject perform sodomy on on the victim what do you mean what do
01:00:06
you mean it means something in every different state I don't know you know what you what you mean for me and this
01:00:12
what I will tell them for me to do an analysis of your case I have to know three components of of the rate case I
01:00:19
have to know the verbal the sexual and the physical assault that took place with that victim the verbal
01:00:26
what was the subject saying when he confronted the victim what was he saying to the victim if at all during the sex
01:00:32
act what did he say when he left the victim physically how much force did he use did he use just enough Force to
01:00:38
control the victim or was he excessive in the the amount of force and thirdly sexually what did he do sexually to the
01:00:46
victim and in what order did he do these things sexually to the victim so you you
01:00:51
combine it all now in verbal sexual physical you get the script here and now having that information I'm able to to
01:01:00
now decide which type of rape typology we're dealing with because there are five rape typologies and um once we we
01:01:09
have an information we can I'll give you we have an extreme uh one extreme on the
01:01:14
left would be power reassurance rapist he's generally someone who lives in the neighborhood he's the calling power
01:01:21
reassurance cuz he's asking the victim how his performance is re asking for reassurance that he's performing well to
01:01:30
way over on the other side The Other Extreme on the right side will say is the sexual status no matter what the
01:01:36
victim says no matter how Cooperative the victim will be just to get out of this this mess with this with this guy
01:01:43
he goes Way Beyond as necessary the torture the physical the language threatens the Killer and come back
01:01:49
together you know so and in between all the other ones too it's it's all center around power and anger but but having
01:01:56
information we can and we can also determine the type of maybe prior criminal histories that they would have
01:02:04
whether or not um uh this is a transing guy or whether or not this is a local type of um uh rapist generally the the
01:02:12
first one I mentioned the power reassurance type is someone who is uh is in the area has familiarity with the uh
01:02:21
often times if it's an indoor case and more times are not their indoors with the power reassurance is is familiar
01:02:28
with the residents may have been there to paint the the walls of the apartment or shampoo the carpets fix plumbing or
01:02:38
just through vois activities has does not want to go in Coal so has this familiarity so we can you can determine
01:02:46
that but you got to have the information you got to you have to educate the police to get the right and more times
01:02:52
than not they may not have that they don't have that and you have to go back and so victimology victimology is is key
01:02:59
and victimology too could be there's a uh product tampering uh at a say a major company so victimology is not so much
01:03:08
the person but really the the company you what's going on with the company why would there be product tampering going
01:03:15
on what what's is there any trouble going on there trouble with the unions there's trouble with any supervisors and
01:03:22
and subordinates or pay Cuts or layoffs or anything you know like that so so that that becomes your victim your your
01:03:31
victim is is not a person now it's a you know it's a building and from that we can come up with you know always we come
01:03:39
up with the a direction for the investigation thank you John Douglas for being on our show thank you thanks for
01:03:46
having me bye [Music] bye Joseph condro never expressed any remorse for his deeds and in fact he
01:04:02
vowed to kill again even behind Prison Walls he hinted that there have been other victims but saw nothing to gain by
01:04:10
confessing quote if you hook up a meter to my emotions they're Flatline condro said in a prison interview I don't know
01:04:18
where my emotions are I couldn't give a damn what anyone thinks authorities also
01:04:24
suspect condro killed 8-year-old Shila silvernails of Cal whose strangled nude body was found in a creek bed a day
01:04:32
after she vanished on her way to catch the school bus silver Nail's mother had dated condro in another interview condro
01:04:41
said quote what I would like to see result from publication of my story condro said he hoped to explain what
01:04:48
happened to a good healthy kid and caused the reader to take better care of their children look what I have taken he
01:04:55
said I took a whole community's children in 2012 murderer Joseph condro who was serving a life sentence for killing two
01:05:04
Long View girls died in the state prison at Walla Wala condro died of liver disease due to hepatitis C he was 52
01:05:13
years old Cara rud's Grandfather said he was happy to learn of condro death adding he's burning in hell right now I
01:05:23
hope he suffered and to quote the captain quote he's a real piece of [ __ ] this week we are recommending the killer
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across the table by dare I say good friend of the show garage Army member the great John Douglas check out the
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killer across the table unlocking the secrets of serial killers and predators with the FBI's original mind Hunter this
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fascinating and haunting expert account helps us understand why the most shocking homicides occur and you can
01:05:50
find that title as well as others at our website True Crime garage.com on the recommended page if you're looking for
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Stitcher premium until next time everybody be good be kind and don't [Music] litter
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