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[Music] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
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for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always is a man who says in the garage overthinking is prohibited.
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Here is the captain. >> Overthinking is overstinking. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks
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for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. >> This week we are featuring the Galaxy
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Starf Fighter, one of my favorite beers, Sparkle Puff. Triple IPA by the normal is Weird Brewers over at Flying Monkeys
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Craft Brewery. Sparkle Puff launches with a payload of smashed summer peaches to cushion the fierce force field of
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shimmering hops. This one is fuzzy and dangerous at 10.2% ABV, but also delicious. Garage grade five out of five
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bottle caps. And let's give some thanks and praise to these deliciously dangerous folks right here. First up, a
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cheers to Jean the Queen from Mechanicsville, Virginia. >> And a big weak chip goes out to Christy
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from Fresno, California. Next up, here's a cheers to Molly Wheatley in the bourbon capital of the world, Bardstown,
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Kentucky. And last, but certainly not least, we have Lauren and Katie McRamsey from Tucson, Arizona, they say, aka the
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dirty tea. Everybody we just mentioned went to true crimegar.com and helped us out with this week's beer
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run for the beer fund or beer fund for the beer run. And for that, we thank you.
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>> Yeah. BW are ruin beer run. Make sure you go to trueimegage.com and sign up on
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the mailing list and I will love you forever. I'll even send a note to your parents saying, "Hey, you should love
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this kid a little more. Hug him a little tighter." And that's enough of the business. All right, everybody, gather
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around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. [Music] [Music] [Music]
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In late 2017, creator Joe Penhal, executive producer Charliss Theon, and director David Fincher delivered to the
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world the Mind Hunter TV series. It's a Netflix original based on the 1995 book Mind Hunter inside the FBI's
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elite serial crime unit by legendary FBI agent John Douglas and co-authored by Mark Olshaker. The show was a hit for
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fans of true crime. Because much of the show comes directly from Douglas's FBI career, the Minehunter book, and news
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stories from national headlining stories. Much of Mind Hunter is very real and in fact true crime, but some is
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crime fiction. Now, regardless if you have watched this show or not, we are going to be talking a lot of true
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crime, especially true crime stories, killers, crimes, and events from the late 1970s
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as season 1 is said to take place in 1977 and focuses on the initial establishment
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of the FBI's behavioral science unit led by fictional characters Holton Ford and
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Bill Tench as they conduct early interviews with serial killers like Ed Keer to develop criminal profiling
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techniques and coin the term serial killer. Catching a criminal often requires the authorities to get inside
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the villain's mind to figure out how he thinks. FBI agents Holden Ford and Bill Tench attempt to understand and catch
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serial killers by studying their damaged psyches. Along the way, the agents pioneer the development of modern serial
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killer profile. This is a deep look at the Mind Hunter series and this is True Crime Garage.
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[Music] Mind Hunter season 1 episode 1 opens up on Brodic, Pennsylvania. We have Holden
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Ford, our John Douglas character, is arriving to a hostage situation. The officer at the scene tells Douglas that
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the perp, who has a gun to a woman's head, thinks that he is invisible, stole a shotgun, robbed a liquor store. He was
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talking to people that are not there. The wife said that she would leave him if he doesn't go to see a doctor. He is
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supposed to be taking medication. The per here in this scene, Captain is Cody Miller. He is asking where is my wife?
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Holden Ford again our John Douglas character is trying to arrange it so that this man can talk with his wife on
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the phone. He insists that she be there. Holden says, "Maybe I can help." And the
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man, Cody Miller, puts the shotgun to his chin and blows his head off right in front of Holden, the police, Cody
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Miller's wife, and some onlookers, and the female hostage. Is this story real or made up for the show? While the name
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Cody Miller may be made up for the show, the incident is very much real from Douglas's book Minehunter inside the
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FBI's elite serial crime unit where Douglas writes, quote, "In one case, somewhat more straightforward than the
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Jacob Cohen extravaganza, a guy robbed a bank, then led police on a high-speed chase, ending up barricaded
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in a warehouse." That was when we were called in inside this warehouse. He takes off all of his clothes, then puts
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them back on again. We see this in the show as well. He seems like a real nutcase, Douglas adds. Then he asks to
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have his wife brought to the scene, which they do. In later years, when we' done more research into this type of
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personality, he's talking about the perpetrator, we'd understand that you don't do that. You don't agree to this
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type of demand because the person they ask to see is usually the one whom they perceive as having precipitated the
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problem in the first place. Therefore, you're putting that individual in great danger and setting them up for a murder
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suicide. Fortunately, in this instance, they don't bring her inside the warehouse, but have her talk to him on
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the phone. And sure enough, as soon as he hangs up, he blows his brains out with the shotgun. So, this incident,
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however, did not take place in Bradock, Pennsylvania, but it actually took place
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in Milwaukee, sometime before 1975. I'm piecing some of this together because I know Douglas's general history and
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timeline and he was working at the field office in Milwaukee as an agent for a little more than 5 years during the
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early '7s >> or like the natives say Bill Walk. Douglas discusses this incident on pages
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85 and 86 of Mind Hunter. And the situation is, as said, it's a little bit different, but you can see how it was
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molded from a real life situation that Douglas wrote about to open up the series and to kind of show you. They
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have to show us Douglas or Holden Ford in a different position, which Douglas was before he gets roped into the
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behavioral science unit. >> Well, wasn't the idea that if if the gunman didn't have his clothes on that
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he was invisible to the outside world? >> Yes. Something to that effect. And I think just like in real life, the
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perpetrator on the show takes off his clothes, says something like, "Do you see me?" and then puts the clothes back
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on. >> We've all been there. >> We all can see you. The next scene is Holden Ford at his apartment in
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Fredericksburg, Virginia. He's washing blood from his white button-up shirt. This is supposed to like signify
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Holden observing this very bizarre hostage situation of a very sick man who is clearly needs some strong mental help
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here. I think that's where he starts putting thought into this of like these crimes and these perpetrators, these
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violent offenders can be much more complicated than just bad guy versus good guy. One, we have to be concerned
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about the mental state of the person and understanding that we don't all think the same. We aren't all on the same
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level. And that may that may be why some people react the way that they do or behave the way that they do.
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>> But I also find it fascinating how when he's cleaning off the blood, it's it's
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almost a normal action for him. So I think it also kind of shows that the deeper that law enforcement get into
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these situations that they might not behave in ways that we find normal either. To me, I I look at that and I
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see him. It's almost like he's attempting to scrub off the blood and it's maybe an attempt to try to forget
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how dramatic that night had been or to try to forget like it seems like that that night damaged him or greatly
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affected him and he maybe worried that it would haunt him and and therefore trying to scrub out and erase the blood
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is almost like scrubbing out erasing the memory of that night. >> Well, and it starts off the series with
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a bang, >> literally. The next scene is FBI headquarters. At the FBI headquarters in
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Virginia, while Holden is waiting in the lobby, he sets his cup of coffee on an end table next to a copy of Time
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magazine that has a picture of David Burkowitz on the cover. And the cover reads, "David Burkowitz, son of Sam,
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meets his fate. Now, you don't have to have watched the series. You don't have to have watched
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Mine Hunter at all to be tuning in with us this week because we're going to be talking about a lot of true crime that
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is all brought up throughout this series. And a lot of these will be cases that you have heard of, maybe some cases
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that you're even familiar with, but there will also be some cases that you have not heard of at all. And then for
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those of you that have watched the series and wondered, well, what portions of the series are fact or based on real
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killers and how they may have morphed and altered some of that information to tell the story to dramatize
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the Mine Hunter series, th this will add a lot of clarity. Now, one thing I did because I'm I'm a sick individual
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myself, >> super nerd. >> Have not been diagnosed yet. still waiting on a qualified doctor. But
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>> you have been diagnosed as a super nerd though. >> I was even looking for stuff in the
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background like this like this David Burkit son of Sam meets his fate time magazine cover sitting on this end table
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at the FBI headquarters in some lobby there in their in one of their buildings. So I wanted to know more
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about that magazine cover. David Burkwitz and Time Magazine. Now, Time magazine extensively covered the case of
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David Burkowitz, also known as the son of Sam Killer, who terrorized New York City with a series of shootings between
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1976 and 1977. We know that he murdered six young people and wounded seven others using a 44 caliber revolver.
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Times reporting captured the public fear in the media frenzy surrounding the case. For example, the magazine noted
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how David Burkowitz sent letters to newspapers, including the Daily News using the pseudonym Son of Sam, and
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referencing demonic themes. Time also described how the police investigation was going, how it was initially hampered
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by misleading eyewitness accounts and fragmented descriptions, was eventually aided by a personality profile of the
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likely killer and then ultimately tracked down via a parking ticket that was issued to David Burkowitz to his car
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near a crime scene. This leading to his arrest in 1977. So, the Burkowitz stuff,
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all very true. However, Time magazine did document the relief and the anger that followed David Burkowitz's capture
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and then his subsequent confession. He initially claimed that his killings were ordered by a demon inhabiting the body
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of his neighbor's dog, a story he later recanted. Times coverage of this story included analysis of the psychological
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aspects of the case, describing Burkowitz as a psychopath with early signs of paranoia. The magazine also
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discussed the legal implications, noting that Burkowitz was sentenced to six consecutive life sentences and that his
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case spurred the creation of Son of Sam laws designed to prevent criminals from profiting from their crimes.
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Some of Time magazine's coverage on the Son of Sam includes the following with the headline nation Son of Sam returns.
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This is from June 5th, 1978 and it reads Burkowitz rants in court. When David Burkowitz stood before Brooklyn Supreme
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Court Justice Joseph Corso, he admitted that he acting as son of Sam had terrorized New York City in a long
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series of killings with his 44 caliber revolver. The former male clerk appeared so placid and reasonable that the judge
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agreed with a panel of psychiatrists and found him mentally competent to stand trial. Burkowitz then pleaded guilty to
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the murder of Stacy Moscowitz, age 20, and to to five more counts of secondderee murder. This flat and
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anticlimactic appearance in court was entirely free of the seemingly psychotic rantings that had filled Burkowitz's
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letters in earlier conversations with police. They go on to say as Burkowitz returned to court to be sentenced, it
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was son of Sam's turn to put in an appearance. So almost like Burkowitz is one person and the son of Sam is another
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person all trapped in the same body here. And it goes on to say, "In a packed courtroom sat Stacy Moscowitz's
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mother, and Robert Vilante, Stacy's date, the night of the murder, who is partially blind from the gunshot wounds
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he received. While the spectators waited for an hour and a half, guards struggled
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to bring the killer into the courtroom. He scratched and bit them, trying to rush for a window. Finally disheveled
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and handcuffed, he was pushed into the room. His face was flushed, his eyes bulging. Turning towards the spectators,
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he began a singong chant. Stacy was a [ __ ] Stacy was a [ __ ] The spectators, angry, jumped to their feet.
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You animal, you animal, screamed. Mrs. Moscowitz. And then the other victim, Robert
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Vilante, yells, you should get killed, you creep. As the guards rushed the struggling David Burkowitz out of the
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room, he cried, "That's right. That's right. I killed her. I'd kill her again. I'd kill them all again."
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>> It was a catchy tune, but it never broke the top 100 in the United States. But I
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have a question on the on the profiling because did the profiling start with the
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behavioral science unit or did it start before then? >> Um, that's a great question. I know we
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talked about the profiling when we covered Son of Sam, which was what, seven, eight years ago. It was a long
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time. >> Million years ago. >> A million years ago. But we I also remember we talked a little bit about
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this uh these outbursts that took place in the courtroom. Why I hone in on this one is this was a particular article
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from Time magazine where he says, "That's right. That's right. I'd kill her again. I'd kill them all again. that
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that statement was powerful then and scary then, but also powerful and scary now because David Burkowitz is up for
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parole. By the way, I'm hoping at these parole hearings that somebody is sitting
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there bringing up that while he has found God sitting in his prison cell all these years and while he's mildmannered
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and very polite today, I've spoke to people that have spoke to David Burkwitz, a couple, and they all say
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he's very polite. He's very religious. He won't talk about his crimes. >> Yeah, but BTK was very polite and very
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religious. I wouldn't want him out on the streets. >> Well, that's what I'm pointing out. With
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BTK, it was obviously a facade. With Burkowitz, even all these years later, it could just be that. It could all be
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fake. What I'm asking the parole board is to see the man that committed the crimes, not the man that stands before
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you 40 years plus later. >> Yeah, I agree. It's probably a facade, but >> yeah, you can't be religious and out
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murdering men, women, and children. It just you can't >> Well, well, but >> you can you can pretend to be religious.
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You can pretend, you can work as an officer for the church as BTK did, but you're not you're
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you're not god-fearing. >> Yeah. But some people have very perverse versions of religion and how it applies
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to their existence, >> which makes them completely wrong. So, while the Time magazine looked cool in
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the waiting area at the FBI headquarters, the son of Sam David Burkowitz was not featured. He was never
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featured on the cover of Time magazine. While the Son of Sam case was a major news event and the subject of much media
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attention, obviously Time magazine did not dedicate a cover story to him or his crimes. The magazine focused on the
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broader societal issues and major news events, not on individual criminals. But of course, because it's on TV, we can't
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see what's inside the magazine. they have to put it on on the cover. >> But it's fascinating because if if it
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wasn't for him, how long would these killers go on with profiting from their crimes and watching these new
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documentaries that are coming out? The the new documentary on the Deli murders, uh the new documentary on Long Island
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serial killer. You wonder if that should extend to some of the family members that are basically advocates for the
00:21:04
killers. >> And there are people advocating for some of these very, very evil killers.
00:21:12
>> Mhm. >> Uh Holden, our character, is told by his superior at the FBI that he will be
00:21:18
teaching hostage negotiations at Quantico. Then we see Holden standing at the podium in a classroom setting,
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teaching hostage negotiations to a room full of students. Holden is telling the students about a real hostage situation
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that he has personally experienced. He says to the room, "This is where we find ourselves completely out of control. A
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fugitive has already killed a police officer that morning in Austin. He's taken two 9mm rounds to the ass, grabbed
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a 10-year-old boy as a hostage. He's holding up in a suburban neighborhood crawling with women and small children.
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Now, we must focus on one thing, and that thing is deescalation. San Antonio's chief of police arrives
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and starts using a bullhorn, which more than effectively intimidates our hostage
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taker. This incident is also true. However, just as with the previous story, this too took place in Milwaukee.
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And this I actually found on FBI.gov. This was a fugitive hunt by Milwaukee agents in February of 1974 that turned
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violent and deadly. And they write there that after Milwaukee was notified that a
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murder suspect named Jacob Paul Cohen was likely living in the city, the special agent in charge and another
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agent were wounded when they attempted to arrest him. After Cohen took a teenage boy hostage, he was shot and
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killed by a special agent marksman. While Douglas in his book Minehunter in the city of Milwaukee tells slightly
00:22:55
different versions of this true crime story, it's real. Jacob Paul Cohen mur murdered two Chicago police officers
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during a bank robbery and he fled to 256 North Terrace Avenue in Milwaukee. The hostage was a 14-year-old boy his name
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Danny Brady who was shoveling snow before he was snatched up by the wanted man Jacob Cohen. After the incident the
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boy was fine but the suspect was dead. He was shot and killed at the scene. The special agent marksman was Douglas's
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partner at the time. His name was Joe Delcampo. Holden tells the class, "Our goal is no
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body bags. That is the hostage negotiator win-win." After this, Holden leaves the classroom and while in the
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hallway, he overhears another class where the instructor is telling the class, "Robert Volante and Stacy
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Moscowitz, our two Son of Sam victims that we've already discussed, were making out in their car when David
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Burkowitz walked up and shot them both point blank." Burkowitz killed six people over two summers, wounding seven
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more. "Why?" he asked the classroom. "Because a dog told him to do it." And as we know this is this portion is true.
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David Richard Burkowitz, born Richard David Falco, also known as the son of Sam and the 44 caliber killer, committed
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a series of stabbings and shootings between 1975 and 1977 in New York City, killing six people and wounding 11
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others. He was armed with his 44 special caliber bulldog revolver. During most of
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his crimes, he terrorized New Yorkers with many letters mocking the police and promising further crimes leading to
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possibly the biggest manhunt in the city's history. We know that Burkowitz was arrested on
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August 10th, 1977 and indicted for eight shootings. He confessed to all of them and initially
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claimed to have been obeying the orders of a demon manifested in the form of a black dog named Sam, which belonged to
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his neighbor. After being found mentally competent to stand trial, he plead guilty. As we said, he is now up for
00:25:11
possibility of parole after he So, part of his sentence here, captain, was he he
00:25:16
gets six concurrent life sentences in the state prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years. So, he's been up
00:25:23
for parole for considerable amount of time, >> right? >> He did admit eventually that the dog and
00:25:30
the devil story was a hoax. Burkowitz has been denied parole several times and his next hearing is scheduled for May of
00:25:41
2026, which will be here faster than we know it. >> But don't you think it's more
00:25:47
complicated than that? Because we assume he made up this tall tale, but is it possible that part of the tale is true,
00:25:56
but he's telling us what he thinks we want to hear? Now, I think that when you have a city, a whole city, especially a
00:26:04
city as large as New York City, saying before the guy is identified and caught, that whoever's doing this must be a
00:26:11
madman, must be completely crazy. And maybe on some level, Burkowitz did think he was crazy. Sometimes these serial
00:26:18
killers don't understand themselves and don't are not able to have a great comprehension,
00:26:25
>> right, >> of why they do what they do. Burkowitz. I don't think he I mean I don't think he
00:26:31
believed that story because later he tells us that that was a hoax. And what we do know is that working with his
00:26:38
attorneys he they were working on a an insanity defense. They they wanted to get an insanity defense. This was a very
00:26:48
violent man. And and I'm look I apologize because we are very mental health forward on this show and we do
00:26:55
recognize the importance of identifying that and and working on that on all levels, right? No matter what our what
00:27:03
our place in this world is, it's something to be concerned with and something to work on. But so I I kind of
00:27:10
hate to say this next part, but with some of these guys, they're so violent that I don't really care where they end
00:27:15
up. And really in the hardest place for him to escape is where he belongs. I mean, he's incredibly violent. Uh I
00:27:24
don't I can't recall exactly how much of this we discussed when we covered it, but he was a serial arsonist before he
00:27:30
became a serial killer. And he got so much pleasure out of murdering these people that he didn't know, pulling a he
00:27:37
he wanted to be somebody important. He wasn't important. He was nobody. And and really that's part of the why reason why
00:27:44
he taunted police and the public was he wanted to be known. He wanted to go around and hear the the term son of Sam,
00:27:53
the 44 uh caliber killer. He wanted to hear that because they were talking about him,
00:27:59
>> right? >> And so he wanted to be something important. He wasn't important. So he
00:28:04
murdered other people to become important in his mind. If that makes him crazy, then then I agree. Well, you have
00:28:10
to be sensitive to mental health issues, but you also have to be sensitive. >> We have to protect the public.
00:28:16
>> Exactly. >> This guy would This guy would shoot two people in a car and then later return to
00:28:22
that area and masturbate. That's how that's how disgusting and gross and violent this individual was. So, if I
00:28:28
mean, if that makes him crazy, I agree. But I also think he ended up exactly where he should be. Now,
00:28:35
>> he was sick. I mean, he even used lubrication. Now we have standing by a vehicle. This is just outside of one of
00:28:43
the FBI buildings. We have Holden Ford. He's asking that instructor that was teaching the class right about and
00:28:50
talking about Burkowitz. And he says to the instructor how, you know, he the instructor's clearly been
00:28:57
doing this for a while, but Burkowitz is a a recently apprehended killer. And so he asked the the instructor if he
00:29:05
was teaching this stuff before Burkowitz and the instructor replies, "Yes, a version of it." The headline sort of
00:29:13
fell in my lap. So the character, I believe his name is Peter Wrathman. Holden asked Peter Wrathman, "What got
00:29:20
you started?" And he replies, "Starkweather, Whitman, Manson, and of course Son of Sam kind of epitomizes now
00:29:28
is his response." Of course, we know that all of those other people mentioned are all real killers. We have Charles
00:29:36
Raymond Starkweather. He was a an American spree killer who murdered 11 people in Nebraska and Wyoming between
00:29:44
November 1957 and January 1958. He was 19 years old. Starkweather was executed in the electric chair at the Nebraska
00:29:54
State Penitentiary in Lincoln, Nebraska at 12:04 a.m. on June 25th, 1959. That's how things worked back then. He
00:30:06
was he was executed a year less than a year and a half after after the murders. Uh he committed these murders.
00:30:15
Starkweather gave no last words. Fans of legendary songwriter Bruce Springsteen may know this killer well. We discussed
00:30:23
Starkweather briefly in our coverage of the I5 killer. Also mentioned there, Charles Joseph Whitman, somebody that
00:30:32
the captain knows well from doing an episode. The captain along with Justin Evans from the Generation Y podcast
00:30:39
covered the case in True Crime Garage episode 229 this back in August of 2018. one of the
00:30:47
one of the best episodes of True Crime Garage. Some say >> Justin would tell you that.
00:30:54
>> Charles Whitman was a a mass murderer and Marine veteran who became known as the Texas Tower Sniper. On August 1st,
00:31:04
1966, Whitman used knives to kill his mother and his wife in their homes. Then he went to the University of Texas and
00:31:13
with multiple firearms, he began indiscriminately shooting at people below. He fatally shot three people
00:31:20
inside UT's Austin's main building and then accessed the 28th floor observation deck
00:31:27
on the building's clock tower. there. He fired at random people for 96 minutes, killing an additional 11 people and
00:31:35
wounding 31 others before he was shot dead by the Austin Police Department. Whitman killed a total of 17 people. The
00:31:44
17th victim died 35 years later. This from injuries sustained during that attack.
00:31:50
>> Austin has some very infamous shocking crimes. >> Yes. And Columbus, Ohio has shocking
00:32:00
missing person cases. >> Yeah, you'll see that when when we hop around the country and we do these
00:32:07
different cases. There's some states that stand out and Florida, Texas, and Arkansas certainly fall into that
00:32:14
category. And here where we live in, Ohio falls on that list at some point as well.
00:32:25
[Music] [Music] All right, good people. We are back. Cheers, mates. Talk hands in the air.
00:32:44
>> Talks in the air. We love it. We love it. We love it. We love it. >> Mhm. >> We love the tall cans in the air. We
00:32:49
don't love these these killers. The other killer mentioned here is Charles Manson, born Charles Maddox. He was uh
00:32:58
born in Cincinnati, Ohio. We were just talking about >> [ __ ] >> [ __ ] >> [ __ ] Another one.
00:33:05
>> That's okay. We can cut this part out of the show. Yeah. Born in Cincinnati, Ohio. Of course, he was a cult leader
00:33:11
and and musician to some degree who led the Manson family, a cult based in California in the late 60s and early
00:33:18
70s. Some cult members committed a series of at least nine murders at four locations in July and August of 1969.
00:33:27
>> Yeah, I've heard his music, but I you know I prefer Dylan. >> In 1971, Manson was It would be weird if
00:33:34
you if you went that in reverse, right? In 1971, Manson was convicted of first-degree murder in conspiracy to
00:33:42
commit murder for the deaths of seven people, including the film actress Sharon Tate. Manson died in prison on
00:33:50
November 19th, 2017. While True Crime Garage, our fantastic show, the only people pumping out true
00:33:59
crime out of a garage, has never covered Charles Manson. I did discuss him and follower Tex Watkins with John Douglas
00:34:08
himself in our TCG John Douglas the Mind Hunter episode, uh, episode 302 from May
00:34:15
of 2019. I personally have spoken with former Manson family member Diane Lake >> and I think that conversation ended up
00:34:26
on Off the Record. That would be back in the Stitcher premium days. One thing that I thought interesting here, while
00:34:32
it doesn't really mean anything at all when Holden's talking to Peter Wrathman, the three killers that he rattles off,
00:34:40
Starkweather, Whitman, and Manson, the all their names are Charles. They're all Charles. Yeah, that's probably on
00:34:48
purpose. >> So, a bit of a theme there with some of the uh midcentury killers there. Next,
00:34:55
we have we go to the bar captain where Holden meets this young woman. Her name is Debbie. This is going to become his
00:35:03
love interest. I love I love this scene because it it shows the two very different
00:35:10
personalities between Holden Ford, kind of buttoned up, stuffy FBI agent, and Debbie, who's equally smart, maybe even
00:35:18
more intelligent than Holden Ford, but she's she's willing to cut loose, right? She's willing to to be a little more
00:35:26
college student. And she tells Holden that he dresses like a Mormon. And Holden tells Debbie that his dad bought
00:35:36
him the suit that he was wearing, but he had to buy his own sneakers. While there
00:35:41
is a picture, you want to talk about things in the background. While there is a picture of young John Douglas visiting
00:35:47
his folks home from the bureau in his book Mine Hunter, we have a caption below that picture saying, "Posing with
00:35:55
my badge in one of the new suits that my father bought me." Douglas says when he
00:36:01
started at the FBI, he didn't have any civilian dressup clothes. So, my father bought me three regulation dark suits, a
00:36:09
blue, black, and a brown. He also bought him white shirts and two pairs of wing tips, one black, and one brown. So, the
00:36:18
suit statement rings true, but we'll need further research. Further research is needed to confirm that John Douglas
00:36:26
buys his own sneakers. You can send him that email. >> Yeah, I'll I'll I'll ask him.
00:36:33
>> Hey, John, question for you. Do you buy your own sneakers? >> A little interesting detail here as
00:36:40
well. Debbie explains that she is at the bar to watch a band from Detroit. >> And then she asks Holden if he has ever
00:36:49
been to Detroit. And he says, "Yes, I was an agent there for a couple years." When asked where is he from, Holden says
00:36:57
all over, but I was born in Brooklyn. This is all true. John Douglas was born in Brooklyn, New York City in 1945. At
00:37:06
some point, his folks moved out to Long Island. Douglas was in the veterinarian veterary program at Montana State
00:37:15
University for about two years, but in 1966, he began a 4-year enlistment in the United States Air Force.
00:37:23
While in the military, Douglas finished his bachelor's degree at Eastern New Mexico University. So, at one at some
00:37:31
point in one of the episodes, he says when asked where he's from, he says New York or Brooklyn, but it's a bit of a
00:37:39
mixed bag. Well, you can see why it's a mixed bag because he's in Montana for a while in his early life. He's in New
00:37:46
Mexico for a while. He's in Long Island. But we do know that Douglas joined the FBI and his first field office
00:37:52
assignment was in fact in Detroit, Michigan. Douglas was assigned to the reactive crimes unit. The reactive
00:38:00
crimes unit stuff is absolutely fascinating which meant that basically meant reacting to crimes that were
00:38:07
already committed. How do we react to those? So mostly this is bank robberies and extortion. Then we see Debbie and
00:38:17
Holden. They go to the movies. They see Dog Day Afternoon starring Alpuccino. The feature chronicles the 1972 robbery
00:38:25
and hostage situation at a Chase Manhattan branch in Brooklyn. The movie came out in September of 1975 with a
00:38:34
budget of 3.8 million. Dog Day Afternoon took in between 50 and 56 million at the
00:38:41
box. Holden then shows this movie to his students at Quantico. Later afterward, his supervisor suggests that he talk to
00:38:50
someone from the FBI's behavioral science unit. Following this, in the cafeteria, we are introduced to Bill
00:38:58
Tench. Bill Tench is a fictionalized version of Robert Wrestler. Robert Kenneth Wrestler was an American FBI
00:39:07
agent and author. He played a significant role in the psychological profiling of violent offenders in the
00:39:13
1970s and is often credited with the co with coining the term serial killer. Robert Wrestler grew up in North Marura
00:39:23
Avenue in Chicago, Illinois. At an early age, he became interested in killers as
00:39:30
he followed the Chicago Tribune's articles on the lipstick killer. His fascination with serial killers would
00:39:38
later be bolstered by John Wayne Gasey, who had actually grown up in the same neighborhood as Robert Wrestler and was
00:39:46
in the Boy Scouts with him. >> Wow. >> Robert Wrestler was in the US Army. At one time, he served as a marshall of a
00:39:55
platoon of military police. He was in charge of solving cases such as homicides, robberies, and arson. He
00:40:03
studied criminology and police administration at Michigan State University. Later he was reassigned as
00:40:11
the commander of the Criminal Investigation Division, better known as C. He ended his career with the Army as a
00:40:18
major and moved on to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Wrestler joined the FBI in the same year
00:40:25
as Douglas in 1970. I found this quite interesting. and was recruited into the behavioral science unit, which deals
00:40:33
with drawing up psychological profiles of violent offenders such as rapist and serial killers who select victims at
00:40:41
random. While Mind Hunter on the show presents a significant difference in age between partners Holden Ford and Bill
00:40:50
Tench, there's only an 8-year difference in age between Douglas and Robert Wrestler. And as said, they joined the
00:40:57
FBI in the same year. >> Yeah. But I think, and it might not be true to real life,
00:41:03
but I think in the in the show, not a huge age difference, but they're living different lives. One's single, one's
00:41:11
married, one seems to be more stoic, one seems to be more uh erratic with their behavior. But I also find this series so
00:41:21
fascinating because like you said coining a phrase serial killer but they had terms before that. They just came up
00:41:30
with better terms like they used to say sequence killer and then they >> which they came according to the show
00:41:36
they came up with as well and then at some point it >> evolved into serial killer. It's in this
00:41:44
scene here, Captain, that we see Bill Tench smoke cigarette number one. This is during a lunch scene. During this
00:41:52
scene, Holden tells Tench that he is 29 years old. According to a previous scene, we are to believe that this is
00:42:00
all taking place in 1977 as far as the story's timeline goes. But we know in real life Douglas was
00:42:08
actually 32 in 1977. So if Holden is 29, Tench should be 37. But as I had said previous, it's my belief that
00:42:20
Tench appears to be much older than Holden Ford where we have I I think Tench looks to be somebody in his early
00:42:30
to mid4s, >> but in fairness, he also smokes a pack of cigarettes during every scene. And we
00:42:38
do know that the Douglas character tells Tench that he's 29 years old in that scene. So Tench talks with Holden about
00:42:46
his traveling road school. That's what they call it. They're hitting police departments across the country, teaching
00:42:53
them, as he puts it. They want to know what we know. So the next day, he's kind of recruiting him for this road school.
00:43:04
the FBI going about and teaching these local police departments about different crime trends and suspects and some of
00:43:11
the psychological aspects to crimes and the perpetrators of such. The next day, they go off to Fairfield, Iowa. I
00:43:22
couldn't help but notice in the car as they're driving, the song Hold the Line by Toto comes on the radio. This song
00:43:30
was actually not released until 1978, by the way. Somebody screwed up. >> Well, I do think that while most of the
00:43:38
information out there says that that season 1 takes place in 1977, I think that it would probably be more
00:43:45
accurate to say that it starts off right >> in 1977. >> It's kind of ambiguous. >> Yes. During the car ride, we see Bill
00:43:54
Tench enjoying cigarette number two. Upon arrival, the local media seems to be alert that persons from the FBI are
00:44:01
visiting their local law enforcement. The news wants to know if they are there to assist in the Ada Jeff investigation.
00:44:10
The reporters say, quote, "The woman found behind the church." End quote. Another speaks up and says, "The woman
00:44:18
and her little boy." Tension informs them that they are instructors and that they and then they make their way into
00:44:24
the sheriff's office. While discussing motives with the officers, Bill Tench is smoking
00:44:32
cigarette number three. So, they're trying to teach these officers about motives. Afterward, the agents are
00:44:41
chilling by the pool at the hotel. This is during their downtime. Tench is drinking a beer and working his way
00:44:46
through cigarette number four. back and then they go back to the lesson the following day.
00:44:52
>> Yeah. >> Holden shows the officers a slide of Charles Manson's Ventura, California booking photo. He is
00:45:01
telling them about Manson's life and how he was quote, "Here we have a child who
00:45:06
is unwanted, unloved, regularly beaten, and rep repeatedly institutionalized." Of course, all of this about Manson is
00:45:15
true. the officers mistake Holden's information. So he he's not asking the police for sympathy for Manson. He is
00:45:25
discussing what he believes made Manson. He is saying that we need to do better to understand the criminal during which
00:45:34
Tench has cigarette number five. So now they go to a restaurant after this road school day and we have inspector McGraw
00:45:45
sits down with Holden intent and informs them about the unsolved Adah Jeff murder. He tells them that the land lady
00:45:53
found the bodies. They had been dead for 4 days. Both were bound and sodomized with a broom handle. They attended the
00:46:01
Methodist church. They were devout. Ada was found cuffed and lynched to the bed.
00:46:06
The killer made the boy watch. Tench says that it's a lust murder, but much less about sex or rape, but getting
00:46:15
gratification from the annihilation of someone. McGraw says that there was semen found on a throw cushion, type O
00:46:22
blood. Holden says the killer may have a problem with sex, to which McGraw says that would be a good bet. Yeah, I'm
00:46:32
Look, we all know I love this series and it starts from the first episode to the
00:46:38
theme music, but I think the theme music really captures the essence. This is dark. The I'd say the tone visual the
00:46:49
visual tone is almost gray. But I also like that they don't stray away from the gruesome details, but they ne they never
00:47:00
have anything go too low or too high. It's kind of middle of the road, but I think that shows the realness of the
00:47:08
series and and obviously the the realness and the uh severity of the of these crimes. I'm glad that you point
00:47:16
that out because the longer you watch it or for me anyway that you become so immersed in the whole series that that
00:47:25
kind of gets lost on me at some point. Not to mention I'm focusing in on these really minor details in the background.
00:47:33
But you're right that that delivery is obviously meant to be dark and cold and it has that dark and cold feeling
00:47:42
throughout which is what us lay people kind of think of when we think of serial killers or people that are capable of
00:47:51
this level of of violence or deviency that the dark and cold nature of that. Then Inspector McGraw also informs the
00:48:02
agents that they don't have any suspects, no fingerprints, no shoe prints, and not a single hair. Holden
00:48:09
explains that there is some premeditation here that the killer brought gloves. He then pers out loud,
00:48:16
"Is this about the woman or the child?" Holden, when pressed by the inspector, admits that he does not know what any of
00:48:24
the specifics of the unsolved case means and that we are in the dark. Now, Ada Jeffre, many have wondered, is this
00:48:33
another real life case? And if so, was it solved? So, I couldn't find anything out of Fairfield, Iowa with an
00:48:42
outstanding case of Adah Jeff and her son's murder, but I did find some speculation online about this from a
00:48:51
couple of blog posters. So, the first one reads, "I think it may have been BTK's first and had found out how hard
00:48:59
it is to get clean, keep a clean murder scene when blood's involved. Or maybe the blood part turned him off, which is
00:49:07
why he may had not been so brutal afterwards in his killings. And if he did go back, which is what I assume the
00:49:16
killer the kill aroused him, so he went back and that's when he could finally get his climax. The poster says, "I
00:49:24
don't know. Just a thought really, but I think the mess of the blood is where he
00:49:29
learned it's hard to cover up clean up the crime scene." interesting thought. I think uh that this was a fictionalized
00:49:38
version of BTK's first kill. >> It wasn't, but that certainly makes sense why someone would suspect that as
00:49:47
the show does not clearly inform us very well about BTK Dennis Dennis Rider, a real life serial killer. In fact, one of
00:49:55
the most infamous and recognizable serial killers to this date. Now, we do have a Reddit poster.
00:50:05
This is Time Protection 9775 posted this about the Ada Jeffre case. This poster says, "I've always suspected that the
00:50:14
Ada Jeff case was loosely based on the Priscilla Lee Stroll murder. The incidents seem pretty similar, although
00:50:21
in the show Ada's son was also murdered. In reality, Stroll's son wasn't home at
00:50:27
the time of the attack and he was actually the one who found her body. Right. >> So, looking into this case, if it's a
00:50:37
real case or if it's not or if it's been solved, we have this from the sfgate.com.
00:50:44
A 48-year-old Fairfield man committed suicide after cold case investigators used DNA evidence to link him to the
00:50:53
sexual assault and killing of his childhood friend's mother. So, he was 17 when this murder occurred. This article
00:51:02
is 30 years after the murder. The suspect was Robert Hathaway, who hanged himself and alluded to the 1983 slaying
00:51:12
of 40-year-old Priscilla Stroll in a suicide note, acknowledging that he quote took the coward way out, end
00:51:20
quote. His death happened 4 days after Fairfield detectives interviewed him about the killing and took a DNA sample
00:51:29
from him. This was a court-ordered DNA sample. The case began August 31st, 1983 when the victim's son, 15-year-old Kyle
00:51:38
Straner or Strraner, left his home on the 900 block of Buchanan Street in Fairfield to suspend time to spend time
00:51:48
with friends. He returned about 9:45 p.m. and found his mother naked on the floor. The boy climbed through an
00:51:54
unlocked window, confirmed that his mother was dead, and ran to a neighbor's house for help. officers determined that
00:52:02
Stro had been sexually assaulted and beaten to death. Without going too far into details, it was very extremely
00:52:09
violent, just like the case that they're talking about on Mine Hunters, >> right?
00:52:13
>> Fingerprints and DNA found on the victim's body did not match anyone back in 1983.
00:52:19
But after this guy who was questioned and made to give a DNA sample after he commits suicide, the Fairfield
00:52:30
detectives. So, so what led them to him was they they ran the fingerprints again and
00:52:36
eventually it comes up with a match to this suspect. Then they go to his home. They serve the warrant authorizing them
00:52:43
to collect the DNA sample. He denies any involvement in the murder. And then after the suicide, the state department
00:52:51
of justice lab matched the DNA sample collected from him to the DNA from the slang. So it it was solved, just not in
00:53:00
the manner that we would hope for. Well, back to the first post when they're talking about, well, maybe this is a a
00:53:06
killing from BTK and maybe he learned something from it. So you have organized killers and disorganized. But I also
00:53:14
find it fascinating that some of these killers almost take notes and and change their
00:53:22
behavior. They're trying to commit the perfect crime or they're trying to or they're trying to alter their actions so
00:53:29
they're less likely to get caught. But then it seems like some of these other killers, they get sloppier and lazier as
00:53:39
they go. So, I know we have a category for organized and disorganized. Do we have a category for ones that pay more
00:53:48
attention to detail as they go and killers that get lazier as they go? >> Well, and sometimes they can do both as
00:53:55
well. Like it's really the people that become serial killers. One thing, you know, we always talk about, well, how
00:54:03
can you identify them? How what are their similarities? What do they have in common? Well, one of the things that
00:54:08
they have in common is that they have these fantasies that are all wrapped up in that where sex and violence and and
00:54:17
murder, right, a lot of times are all wrapped up into the same fantasy. >> And so they play out this fantasy in
00:54:24
their minds. They think about it during the day. They think about it throughout their lives. At some point, some of
00:54:30
these people decide to act on it. And what they're what they're attempting to do is live out that that sexual fantasy.
00:54:39
The thing is though, they just have to find some other people to play the roles of persons involved in that fantasy.
00:54:46
>> Yeah. >> What typically will happen is I mean there's a lot could happen, but but two
00:54:51
things that are fairly common. One, that they go out, they they abduct somebody,
00:54:55
they kill them, and they attempt to live out that fantasy, but it's not as good as the fantasy. So now they have to go
00:55:01
back out and try to perfect it. perfect it, meaning getting closer and closer to
00:55:05
that fantasy, trying to get to to it where it's it's like a script and it plays out from top to bottom exactly how
00:55:12
they've scripted it out in their minds over the years. The other thing that can happen is sometimes the first kill or
00:55:19
one of the early kills is the best, meaning it's closest to that fantasy. Things go wrong. It's I know it sounds
00:55:27
like a lot of dumb statements here, but it's difficult to kill people. They're not going to go willingly. they're not
00:55:32
going to play along willingly. And so, a lot of things can go wrong. There's a there's a lot of variables in in the
00:55:39
commission of these types of sexual homicides that you can you can only plan for so much. So sometimes one of the
00:55:48
earlier kills or the first kill will be closest to that fantasy and then things go off and they they're trying to
00:55:57
they're always chasing that dragon trying to get back to back to the first one or the one that was
00:56:03
>> like that initial sexual high. >> Yeah. That takes us through episode one. Episode two opens up in Witchah, Kansas
00:56:12
at the ADT office. So ADT is a security company for both homes and businesses. Here we have the ADT serviceman. See,
00:56:21
he's he's actually referred to as the ADT service man. When you see the uh credits, we believe, of course, in in
00:56:30
the captain and I have seen both series 1 and two, and it's quite obvious that the ADT serviceman is Dennis Raider or
00:56:40
also better known as BTK. >> Well, don't tell me what happens. since I didn't finish season two yet.
00:56:45
>> There you go. So, in this scene, the ADT serviceman is giving the other serviceman the
00:56:52
business. The the man is searching for more electrical tape. >> Yeah. >> And Dennis Raider BTK says that he would
00:57:00
like the cardboard core for the empty roll before he is willing to replace it with a new one.
00:57:09
>> What a doucheber burger. >> Yeah, super douche. um >> super douche. >> But of course we know that this is is
00:57:17
true. Um or at least some aspect of it, some form of it is true because when Raider is eventually
00:57:27
identified and apprehended, we start learning all these things about his personal and work life. And they had a
00:57:34
they actually had a nickname for him >> that wasn't Doucheberger. No, Doucheberger would have been more
00:57:40
spot-on, but I think they were trying to be fly a little under the radar here. And I can't remember. I can't recall the
00:57:49
his I think he was called the blue book man >> because he went he did everything by the
00:57:55
book, >> right? he wasn't at work. And you know how some of us may try to buddy up with
00:57:59
a couple people or we find some people that we really identify with and like and maybe we we have some kind of
00:58:06
outside relationship with them. That's not him. No, he's he's there to do everything by the book. He's also there
00:58:13
to rise through the ranks and become in charge. And he he likes that. He obviously likes having that control and
00:58:22
power over others, especially in a very structured setting. >> There might be some psychology to the
00:58:28
idea of, well, if I act this way, nobody's going to get too close with me, nobody's going to want to be my friend,
00:58:36
and so instead of putting myself out there and possibly being rejected, I act this way. Therefore, I know the reason
00:58:44
why nobody here likes me. Then we go to a plane touching down in San Francisco. Here we see Bill Tench crush out cigar a
00:58:53
cigarette on the plane. That is cigarette number six for those keeping score. And clearly we are. Holden is
00:59:00
trying to convince Bill that while they are in San Francisco, they should visit Charles Manson at Vakavville. Holden
00:59:08
says Manson is 30 miles away at Vakavville. During this episode, they are also in and out of Sacramento, which
00:59:15
is 30 miles from Vakavville. Then they are off to Santa Cruz on their road school stop at the Santa Cruz
00:59:25
Police Department. Bill tells the students in California each year 35% of murders go unsolved.
00:59:32
And he says that's more unsolved murders than any other state. He adds that it has to do with ge with geography, the
00:59:39
woods, the mountains, ravines, and the water and so on. That percentage sounds right. In fact, according to project
00:59:46
cold case, from 1965 to 2019, there were around 128,787 murders in California alone. Over the
00:59:57
years, roughly 79,967 of those murders were solved or saw a conclusion, leaving more than 48,000
01:00:07
unsolved murders in the state of California. Here, this is where Holden first learns about serial killer Edmund
01:00:16
Keer, also known as the co-ed killer. The officer tells Holden to talk to Keer because he likes to talk to cops.
01:00:26
The officer tells Holden that Keer is quote like 6'9", 285 pounds. Holden says, "Kingsize." The officer replies,
01:00:35
"Super king size." The officer tells Holton that Keer killed co-eds, cut off their heads, and had sex with the
01:00:43
corpses. Then he killed his mother, cuts off her head, and has sex with the head
01:00:48
and her mouth. The officer informs Holton that Keer was in a mental institution up until then, up until the
01:00:56
killings started. This for killing his grandparents, but somehow managed to convince everyone that he was
01:01:02
rehabilitated enough to get out. >> It's very surprising that this was never advertised as a family show.
01:01:09
>> Exactly. Now, folks that listen to our episodes, our True Crime Garage episodes
01:01:14
261 and 262 know that that information is all true regarding the giant killer. >> Yeah.
01:01:20
>> Keer was convicted of murdering seven women and one girl between 1972 and April, sorry, May 1972 and April of
01:01:29
1973. years earlier at the age of 15, Keer had murdered his paternal grandparents. And Keer was nicknamed the
01:01:38
co-ed killer as most of his non-familial victims were female college students hitchhiking in the vicinity of Santa
01:01:46
Cruz County, California. Most of his murders included necroilia, decapitation, dismemberment, and
01:01:53
possibly cannibalism. But in the first interview, doesn't he tell Holden that he tried to be a police officer, but
01:02:00
they claimed he was too tall? >> He does. He does. And I believe that is in my my notes for either later this
01:02:08
episode or episode three. >> Always ruining things. >> That's all right, babe. Well, these are
01:02:14
as said >> consistent >> as said, most of these are true stories. So, it's unfortunately dark parts of
01:02:21
history, but it's it's not it's not anything new to anybody that's cut that that's that's following true crime,
01:02:29
especially these these cases, especially the state of California. [Music] Want to thank everybody for joining us
01:02:41
here in the garage. So much more to get to until tomorrow. >> Be good, be kind, and don't litter.
01:02:56
[Music]