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[Music] I want people to understand this ordeal it's taking a toll on both of us casy
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Anthony's parents respond after 15 years of allegations I've got blame for something I didn't do and it tears me up
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inside this can change our life this is serious this is their final response the
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test is about to begin please remain still Casey Anthony's parents the lie detector test premier's Thursday at 9:
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welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me
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as always is a man who says that your New Year's resolution should not be to change yourself but to be yourself here
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is the cap yeah don't call it a comeback it's good to be seen and good to see you
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thanks for listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend this week we are very excited to
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be featuring Bourbon County brand Bananas Foster by the brilliant Brewers over at Goose Island beer company this
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is a delicious and decadent American Imperial style aged in Bourbon barrels with bananas and Cat a bark I think it
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is a little boozy which I like but it also has a nice sweet finish this is an adult dessert in a glass ABV is high at
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13.9% and the bottle is Big at 16.9 oz so drink this one at home in your garage garage grade let's ring in the new year
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with some trumpets please five out of five bottle caps and here are a couple of thank yous
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to to our beer fund friends first up a longdistance cheers to jarmo Kula over in Germany and the big we like your jib
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to Heather in Norcross Georgia next up we have Lana in Transylvania and last but certainly not least we have melody
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in Riverside California Happy New Year to everyone all around the world let's all pull together and make 2024 the best
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year yet and all strive to be our best selves yeah and if you can't tell Captain and
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the colonel we're a little under the weather but like Boys to Men we're kicking it just for
00:03:39
you so let's ring in the new year with the first BW R beer run if you need more True Crime garage for your earballs make
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sure you subscribe to our show off the record on patreon or apple subscription and Colonel that's enough of the
00:03:56
business all right everybody gather around grab a chair air grab a beer let's talk some true
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crime Richard Allen is charged with killing Abby Williams and Libby German haagan ritualistic sacrifice tied
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to odinism according to this court document Richard Allen's defense attorneys claimed there was quote an obscene
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amount of evidence linking odinism to the crime scene where the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German were
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found according to Allen's defense attorneys evidence at the crime scene like sticks
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and branches arranged in symbols around the girls bodies and another symbol on a
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tree nearby point to Abby and Libby being sacrificed in quote some sort of pagan
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[Music] ritual main deity is the god Odin today the beliefs have become popular with
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white supremacy groups Richard Allen is charged with killing Abby Williams and Libby
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German Alan confessed to murdering the girls to his wife while talking to her on the phone from prison from
00:05:09
prison Alan confessed from prison on Monday February 13th 2017 at 2:07 p.m. 14-year-old Liberty
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German posted a picture of her best friend 13-year-old Abigail Williams to Snapchat the photo of Abigail best known
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to friends and some relatives as Abby shows a youngster walking across the moanin High Bridge located in a rural
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part of Carroll County Indiana Liberty fondly called Libby by many of those closest to her captured
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the image of her friend and using her cell phone she posts the picture on social
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media the two girls were not heard from again after that the family searched deep into the dark night looking for
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their girls sadly it would not be until the next day a little after noon when the girl's bodies were found about a
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half mile or so away from the moanin High Bridge someone had moved them from the
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very public property of the bridge to one of the quiet rarely traveled corners of Ron Logan's large privately owned
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property it was quickly ruled a double homicide and the search for the killer or Killers started in Carroll County and
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then spread across the nation after many twists and a nearly six-year investigation involving several
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law enforcement agencies which included the Indiana State Police and the FBI an arrest was announced it was on October
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31st 200 22 that the Indiana State Police finally announced that local Carrol County
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Indiana resident Richard Allen had been charged with two counts of Murder in the
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case he was in his 40s at the time of the murders and worked at a deli Indiana CVS store he admitted to police
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detectives that he was there at the monin High Bridge on the day that the girls were last
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seen while he admits to being there at the scene around the time that the girls were last heard from he has pleaded not
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guilty to the charges of murder the twist and turns continue in this case even after the arrest that
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finally came after so many months years and prayers there's been questions of the
00:07:51
suspect's sanity and safety the introduction of a cult killer ritualistic murders Theory suspected
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corruption within Indiana's correctional facilities and leaked to the public murder scene
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photographs we are here to bring you up to speed this is true crime garage Richard Allen is charged with
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killing Abby Williams and Libby German Allan confessed to murdering the girls to his wife while talking to her
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on the phone from prison from prison Alan confessed from prison longtime listeners of off the
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Record are already aware of the gentleman joining us here in the garage today he goes by the name fig we've
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talked with him he's been one of our allies over the years in this very strange and bizarre Deli double murder
00:08:50
case that's been ongoing unfortunately since 2017 when Abby and Libby were killed and
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now that we sit here all these years later with an arrest there's been many updates over the past few months and
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some strange news coming out of the Indiana State regarding this case and we thought that we'd bring fig into the
00:09:12
garage with us to have a interesting discussion about all of the updates and things that have happened in this case
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and some of it is a bit of a delay in in The Not So Speedy process of of the justice for these girls it's been
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delayed for so long now some of it is worth diving into in in very interesting topics of discussion regarding this case
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and for me a lot of these topics came about in September of 20203 and as we close out 2023 and
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welcome in 2024 we also have some interesting Court proceedings that will be taking place
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hopefully in January scheduled for January and I'm hoping for for no more delays in this case so welcome once
00:10:02
again into the garage fig hey thanks for for having me guys it's always a pleasure yeah lots lots of things going
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on with this case right now and Captain one thing we wanted to talk about in this case that's been ongoing since the
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or early goings in this case is the social media Madness and I know fig you're seeing certain things that maybe
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we haven't seen and we've certainly seen our fair share or much more than we wanted to see throughout the years but
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let's talk a little bit about the social media Madness that surrounds this case so yeah I think what happened with this
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case people got into it with good intentions maybe wanting to help where people started trying to identify a
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person of interest per se and then once the Richard Allen arrest happened and if
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they've already stated who their Person of Interest was in public on social media or YouTube or a podcast then when
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it didn't turn out that way I think what happened was they didn't want to lose maybe their listeners or credibility so
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instead of just saying hey uh maybe we were wrong because we didn't have all the evidence seemed like they doubled
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down on whoever that person of interest was so instead of them being wrong what they did was say nope it's law
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enforcement is wrong they're corrupt they're the problem not me I'm the all knowing one so it just turned into this
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almost this game and it just it's been nasty ever since the Richard Allen arrest I don't know what you guys have
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noticed well me and you have talked about it several times to have this position as a a spectator really to say
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that you know more than law law enforcement knows in this case is just absolutely ridiculous yeah there's no
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sense to it I think we talked about kind of The Wheel of Fortune analogy on the phone where if you're looking at the
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letter board there as a Outsider looking in we only have one or two letters up on
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that Wheel of Fortune board and law enforcement's going to have a lot more than us now could they guess wrong could
00:12:03
they make mistakes sure but they have a lot more information than we do so sometimes we have to drop the ego and
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just follow their lead but also if they are making a mistake you know we could we could realize that well and the other
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thing too you guys are both spoton there yes law enforcement does have more than
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we have will they have they made mistakes yeah I think we've seen mistakes or errors that they've made
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along the way but you know one of my favorite quotes is an an error only becomes a mistake when one fails to
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correct it and so we ended up with an arrest in this case and I think it's a lot of what you're saying fig as far as
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the motivation behind some of these really loud voices and frankly loud annoying voices to me it's we we begged
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and we're pleading for an arrest for all of these years and we finally get one and you're right
00:13:02
and it's like I think that for some people and this is not the only case that I've seen this type of behavior
00:13:09
this type of behavior is Amplified times 10 but I think that it's one of those situations where you have this
00:13:18
polarizing case this case that captivates uh a town a city a region even parts of the nation and because it
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BEC such a big case on that front I think that there are are a small very small percentage of people out
00:13:37
there that think that this case has to be something incredibly complicated it has to be there must be a reason why it
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took forever for there to to be an arrest that was made frankly this is not the movies okay yes are there
00:13:54
complicated cases out there yes are there complicated complex perpetrators murder suspects out there yes the the
00:14:03
Zodiac Killer comes to mind right away complete off the rails complex individual that's that's making a game
00:14:13
out of his killings this unfortunately is and I say unfortunately just simply because it happened because
00:14:23
the loss of life here but it's we said this from from Jump Street this case to me never appeared to be that complicated
00:14:34
the investigation was going to be complicated but the case itself never appeared to be that complicated it it
00:14:42
from day one it appeared to me to be a sexually motivated homicide and likely I thought given the
00:14:50
location the venue if you will that it was probably a stranger on Stranger crime and and I say that not because I
00:15:00
felt that right away but after days of this thing within days of this thing not being solved not having a hot lead on a
00:15:09
good suspect that felt to me like we're charting into the Waters of stranger on Stranger crime and I think that the
00:15:18
general public need to pump the brakes a little bit and understand how complicated that is for law enforcement
00:15:25
so if you wanted a complicated case if you wanted a complicated suspect good news you got one you got one stranger on
00:15:32
Stranger crimes are incredibly difficult for law enforcement to to crack and for
00:15:39
for reasons that are both obvious and not so obvious to the general public but you know the thing that drives me mad is
00:15:48
the the leaps that some people are willing to make to support their argument this is not your
00:15:56
case this is not your birden to bear this is not your Great War that you are fighting okay this you you want to tell
00:16:06
me the the a dead man who who and this this is going to start to lead into our next topic here but you want to tell me
00:16:15
that a dead man that was financially uh not sound that was had Rough Around the Edges uh personality difficulties with
00:16:26
relationships you want to tell me that he had such a he has such a grip and a power hold on so many people of this
00:16:33
community that we got to start getting into some weird and bizarre crazy conspiracy theories it
00:16:40
just doesn't add up man it doesn't add up I think that's what happens when you start with a conclusion you start with
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yep Ron Logan did this and then you try and fill in as many blanks to make it point that direction instead of just
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looking at it holistically and seeing or taking a new evidence to me the Richard
00:17:00
Allen arrest that is new evidence that needs to go into your your uh you know your whole dot process where remember
00:17:08
the day that Richard Allen was arrested I thought it was awesome how Becky posted that that image of the old bridge
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guy sketch like we got him and then I saw other people posting nope it's absolutely not him it's still Ron Logan
00:17:20
it's not Richard Allen on the day one of his arrest when it was announced like how would you even know that no one knew
00:17:27
if he was guilty or innocent at that point let's take a step back let some information come in and then we can make
00:17:33
decisions so like when the the probable cause affidavit for his arrest came out there I got some more information then
00:17:41
wow this guy was on the bridge and there was a picture of a man on the bridge that day right then you could start
00:17:47
logically piecing things together and making a decision well in a sad State of Affairs and really some bizarre and
00:17:55
disgusting Behavior as far as I'm concerned you know before even before Richard Allen was arrested I spoke to
00:18:02
several people in the Carol County that lived in Carrol County and they told me Nick you won't believe what's going on
00:18:09
here there are we we have you know Flyers still up justice for the girls Seeking Justice for the girls help
00:18:18
wanted information wanted do you know these this man those type of Flyers posted up around Deli and throughout
00:18:25
Carroll County and I had several individual independently of one another tell me the exact same thing can you
00:18:33
believe that there are people in this community that are going around and taking down the flyers before the arrest
00:18:38
of Richard a mind you taking down these flyers because they are telling everyone
00:18:44
I'm taking it down because the real killer is dead and here here's from where I sit though fig and and
00:18:52
Captain what I see as far as the social media Madness goes the it seems like the
00:18:58
loudest most aggressive behavior is coming from those that are that don't know the families that are not from Deli
00:19:10
that are not from Caroll County that are from other states in fact are you guys seeing the same thing yeah uh for sure
00:19:17
it it's weird that that's happening and it's another way of saying it it's all the people who guessed wrong on who the
00:19:22
killer was I would say that they're very vocal and they're making the noise they're trying to prove that corruption
00:19:27
took place place and it's just it's appalling I don't know what your thoughts are Captain yeah I I think I
00:19:35
differ from you guys a little bit because I I do think these voices on the Internet or through YouTube's whether
00:19:44
it's through podcast or it's just people making posts online I I think initially
00:19:50
all this came from because law enforcement was asking the public for help so people felt invested into this
00:19:56
case and then I I think also law enforcement has made a couple missteps we have the change we have they release
00:20:05
one sketch we have a change in sketch they don't give us really much of an explanation doesn't seem like they give
00:20:12
the family much of an explanation of why the the sketch changed and then when they do make arrest I think they made a
00:20:20
misstep by saying well there also might be somebody else involved so anybody that made a predic
00:20:29
or said you know there's a bunch of evidence that points to to to Ron Logan or to some other individual that was
00:20:37
there that day that's their argument well hey law enforcement told us it could be Richard Allen plus somebody
00:20:45
else you know now are people going about it the wrong way or or speaking about it
00:20:50
the wrong way possibly but I I I do think initially all this came from a place of wanting to help and to to want
00:20:58
to find Justice for Abby and Libby and that's where my head was too I thought that's how I explained away or
00:21:05
rationalized some of that behavior away for the longest time these are people that just want to help and but
00:21:13
but then it continued after the arrest and it actually it changed in and morphed into something
00:21:20
different and that was surprising it's shocking some of the behav and I don't want to really
00:21:28
get to a point where we start singling out certain types of behavior I think that the people that are super dialed
00:21:37
into this case know what we're talking about and and we need to kind of stay with a a broad brush here because
00:21:46
there's some pretty hardcore people in different Realms of the internet being incredibly aggressive
00:21:55
some talks of even persons spying on people close to the case documenting their movements via pictures and journals and
00:22:09
and time cards and things of that nature and and I don't know that we've been I know that some podcasters and YouTubers
00:22:15
have been kind of s singled out I don't know that we have or we've been mentioned in that group I don't I don't
00:22:22
want to frankly I don't want to fall out of favor or become a target of of any of
00:22:29
these groups because they're they're who know who knows what they they would be capable of but it it's just surprising
00:22:36
to me to see that people so far away geographically to the case are spending this much time and trying to discredit
00:22:47
so many people that are close to the case and frankly the most appalling part is the still the the disgusting
00:22:59
rumors that they're trying to create about some of the family members of the victims I for me I I will never ever be
00:23:07
able to understand how anybody could could do that could say those things it's I guess that they they must have
00:23:15
lived such a nerfy life and never have experienced any kind of tragedy at all that they that because of that maybe
00:23:22
they completely lack compassion for their fellow man right and and Captain said maybe it did start off with
00:23:30
trying to help but then it eventually became about these individuals and and themselves and their ego them being
00:23:37
right but I think what what we're alluding to here is there's a line that could be crossed when you're meddling
00:23:44
into a case and you live in a different County different state I mean it doesn't
00:23:50
matter you you really shouldn't just meddle with with any case don't interfere let law enforcement do their
00:23:55
job if you have tips tip them in but to go in and contact either the prosecution or the defense just to try
00:24:03
and you know sway a decision or or just to meddle with the case when you really don't understand it it just becomes very
00:24:10
problematic and look what happened the the trial got delayed a year now fig you you I think you know more about this
00:24:17
than I do and maybe I'm misspeaking so correct me if I'm wrong but these voices these ideas
00:24:28
these other suspects is it is it true that defense reached out to different content
00:24:35
creators to basically try to create a narrative for their defense yeah I don't know who reached out to who first so it
00:24:42
could have been the content the content creators reaching out to them but yeah there was definitely um some contracts
00:24:49
put in place and some some content creators that were helping out with the defense team I had it verified and I
00:24:57
even knew knew that the defense team was going to be removed about a week before
00:25:02
it actually happened because someone let me know that they got a cease and assist
00:25:07
letter they are one of these content creators I'm talking about so they got the cease and assist before it was
00:25:13
announced that they were gonna that the attorneys were going to be removed from the case so I I'm I'm pretty sure they
00:25:19
were working with them I don't know if I have a big issue with that and and here's why this is my understanding of
00:25:27
that situ sitation it see it does seem bizarre I want I want to throw that out there but my understanding of that
00:25:33
situation is this and this is pretty simplistic here but that you know one one defense can always be an alternate
00:25:43
suspect or a complete alternate Theory presented by the defense opposing the theory or and suspect put forward by the
00:25:52
state that's not unheard of from my understanding of it the defense team the original defense team and we'll get into
00:26:00
more of that in a minute they were reaching out to not just content creators but but also I
00:26:07
believe even chat rooms chat groups and to kind of collectively what I should say is organize and collect and catalog
00:26:18
all of the other discussed theories and suspects out there along the way leading
00:26:23
up to the arrest of Richard Allen is that is that about right fig yeah I'm not saying it it wasn't smart to do
00:26:30
because yeah one of the defense strategies that we'll get into is alternative theories and good
00:26:34
storytelling and that's what they were looking for they were looking for people who could tell a story and who frankly
00:26:41
know the case better than them so it gets into how we were saying these people who follow the case so closely
00:26:47
they've told their lies they've told stories and maybe some of them seem pretty credible so they've already done
00:26:52
some groundwork filling in these gaps where some seem plausible so the defense is was contacting them or getting
00:26:58
contacted by them and said yeah help us weave a story together I think that's kind of what
00:27:05
[Music] [Music] happened I never did anything to harm my daughter or my granddaughter the test is
00:27:21
about to begin please remain still oh man Casey Anthony's parents the lie detector t
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rosettastone.com Garay well and for for those that that like you said f latched on to a suspect fell
00:31:07
head over heels in love with one particular suspect and then when the arrest of Richard Allen came out and it
00:31:13
wasn't their suspect and they now they they can't they can't go through the breakup they they are a complete wreck
00:31:20
and mess and they have to convince everybody that no they were right their suspect is is the one look it's the most
00:31:27
simple thing in the world we've said it since day one in the garage the first thing that you don't do as an armchair
00:31:34
sleuth a web a web detective whatever you want to call us you don't you don't find your suspect and attempt to
00:31:47
build the case around them you I mean we we spoke with John Anderson last month about the John B Rams case because he
00:31:58
was so close to Lou Smith who we admire and respect his career so much unfortunately rip L SMI is no longer
00:32:06
with us and he worked The John Bay Ramsey case as good as anybody in my opinion he had a list two pages long of
00:32:15
suspects in that case that's what that's what a real detective does you you you don't exclude anybody until you can
00:32:23
exclude them you always make the mistake always make the greatest of Errors when
00:32:29
you hone in on a specific individual and then you want to put together a PowerPoint presentation of why he's the
00:32:38
best suspect you know I'm not trying to to Pat myself on the back here too much but we talked about the deli case on
00:32:45
True Crime garage for five years and I wrote a damn book about it never mentioned anybody by name ever ever once
00:32:54
because that's the biggest harm and foul you can make in any of these investigations people would ask me who's
00:33:02
your guy and after the arrest well were you aware that they that Richard Allen was a good suspect no no I wasn't hell
00:33:11
no the police weren't even aware that he was a good suspect and and I I agree with the captain 100% I think that I
00:33:18
don't think that that was I don't think it's law enforcement's fault for saying that other people could still we've not
00:33:25
ruled out the possibility that players could still be involved I don't think it's their fault I agree with what he
00:33:31
says I think that that is is a bit of the Genesis of some of of the people that are still barking and honking as
00:33:38
loud as they can about their suspect opposed to Richard Allen but I think that that was a reality that maybe
00:33:46
people weren't willing to accept but the science of it and their investigation leading up to the day that they arrested
00:33:54
Richard Allen it was an incomplete investigation it was an incomplete narrative that Richard Allen killed two
00:34:00
girls in the woods that day it was an incomplete theory that they had they had a lot of blanks still in that theory it
00:34:08
wasn't that they locked in on Richard Allen and that they they they built a case against him no they decided to go
00:34:16
and get a search warrant and found evidence that said he had to have been he he was either there or he killed them
00:34:23
there there's no ifs ANS or buts about it he was either there or he killed them now we have to make an arrest and so I
00:34:29
think that's why they say that that was a variation to me of saying that our investigation into this specific
00:34:37
individual is incomplete yeah and there's there's reasons that we could definitely get into I I think they say
00:34:42
that I I've seen prosecutors say it in other cases too that there there might be other actors involved even in the
00:34:49
Steven Avery case even after they arrested him and his nephew I read that the prosecutor they still said hey hey
00:34:57
there might still be other people involved there reasons why they want to keep it open and not just saying right
00:35:03
when they make an arrest yep that's it we knew it was him and it's no one else thank you goodbye right they they still
00:35:09
want to keep the door open and I think sometimes that phrasing is confusing for the public because it makes it seem
00:35:17
like there's another individual that's responsible for the murders or was there and when they say there might be another
00:35:25
actor involved could just be that somebody knew this information that Richard Allen told maybe he told his
00:35:33
daughter maybe he told one of his friends there could be another actor involved as far as maybe not so much the
00:35:40
the the killings themselves but maybe covering up and and helping protect Richard Allen so he doesn't get arrested
00:35:47
and there's some people out there that are scratching their heads and they say captain how does that work well U let me
00:35:52
give a a prime example and a real life true example of how that works how another player could be
00:35:59
involved in the April Tinsley murder before they finally found her killer they were looking for and trying to
00:36:08
crowdsource and using the public to try to help find the murderer of April Tinsley and I like I like examining it
00:36:16
from this angle because it's it before before the murders of liby and Abby I think one could make a strong
00:36:25
argument that the murder of ail Tinsley and probably the Burger Chef murders were the two or two of the most infamous
00:36:33
unsolved homicide cases in the state of Indiana so later they would arrest an individual and this was only after doing
00:36:45
the familial DNA which was not something that was that they were typically doing in
00:36:52
Indiana in the state of Indiana prior to this so when they finally make the arrest we learn a couple of things that
00:37:01
were possibilities in in this case so John Miller is the one who was arrested and he's arrested in July of
00:37:10
2018 prior to that they had done they had gone to everywhere you could think of to try to get help in solving this
00:37:19
little girl's murder okay so this was investigated by the FBI there were brought in they went to America's Most
00:37:27
Wanted crime watch Daily the genetic detective uh show was was after the fact after the arrest but they reached out to
00:37:35
to everyone that they could to try to crowdsource this thing the America's Most Wanted on the April Tinsley case is
00:37:41
fascinating to watch that is when they start really telling the public like here's all a bunch of new information
00:37:49
that's new to the public but not new to our investigation we've been holding on all of this stuff for for years hoping
00:37:56
that something would come of it and now we've decided Last Resort public please help us so in one
00:38:03
of the the bits of information that was new to the public was a picture so th this criminal this murderer John Miller
00:38:13
he took a picture of himself exposing his the lower half of his body and left it with a threatening note to a little
00:38:22
girl years later they knew based off of scient ific evidence that that note that
00:38:28
threatening note was written and left by the same person that killed April Tinsley in the background of that
00:38:36
photograph you could see a bed spread police were were honing in on that and telling the public look either identify
00:38:45
the man in this Photograph or could you identify this bed spread that you can see behind the individual another player
00:38:53
involved and we do not know because John Miller has never expanded on this and his mother is dead she passed
00:39:04
before he was arrested but it later came out that it's believed that his mother recognized the
00:39:12
bed spread in the picture on the news and called him not knowing we we cannot say 100% conclusively that she knew that
00:39:22
that he killed April Tinsley but what we can say is know based off of several sources she told John Miller if you
00:39:31
still got that bed spread you should probably get rid of it so that would be an example of
00:39:37
players involved without having 100% direct knowledge that the person was the actual
00:39:45
killer right so you guys are making great points it's because there's other bad actor doesn't mean it's there's a
00:39:52
murderer another person involved in the murders there's accessory after the fact
00:39:56
there's there's other criminal activity such as obstruction of justice uh failure to report a crime aiding and
00:40:03
abetting tampering with evidence withholding information such as the mom and even financial support if someone
00:40:12
helped um you know with with money so that they could get away or hide out or you know some logistical support there's
00:40:18
things like that that that are crimes and that are you're participating in the murders but not by doing the actual
00:40:25
murdering doing the actual murdering and they also say Bad actors because they want to keep the investigation open
00:40:32
which is smart because you don't want to get told as we alluded to earlier about
00:40:38
uh saying that there was tunnel vision and they didn't do due diligence on all these other suspects right that they
00:40:43
were locked in that law enforcement were locked in on on Ron Logan and they didn't look at anyone else because the
00:40:49
defense will use that against you later on in court but also while you say there's other Bad actors involved
00:40:55
because it keeps investig a open like you said it it could open up more tips uh more witnesses might come forward
00:41:01
when you give out certain information like in the case that you mentioned um resource allocations money
00:41:08
uh know law enforcement it's a it's a business and if you say the case is closed well they're going to take out
00:41:14
funding they're going to think that no n you no longer need funding to support this case so you don't want that uh you
00:41:21
want to keep getting funds to keep doing investigations keep going through tips sometimes you might need even more
00:41:26
resources once once an arrest is made um and yeah so those are kind of reasons to
00:41:32
say that there are other Bad actors involved and that you want to keep the investigation open and all those other
00:41:38
possibilities that you just mentioned there fig makes me wonder about a very specific item that the state would love
00:41:47
to have in this case and I'm basing this off of the search warrants that were for
00:41:52
Ron Logan's property and the search War warrant for Richard Allen's house if you
00:42:00
read through if you read word for word through those search warrants through those affidavits you will find that
00:42:07
police were looking for a specific electronic device yeah yeah do you agree with me on that fig a specific
00:42:16
electronic device that they did not find at Ron Logan's house or they would have
00:42:20
arrested him to my knowledge they have not found that item at Richard Allen's house either
00:42:27
and so where we say there could be somebody who's done something in this case I here we sit we wonder what's up
00:42:35
with that electronic device and is that something that we'll we will hear about and I hate to phrase it this way
00:42:43
but should this thing ever get to trial yeah and that's the thing we don't know yet what they found at Richard Allen's
00:42:49
house that's that's what I would that's what I want to know is what what items did they actually find we know
00:42:56
what was put out there was the items that they took but what did they find on those that's still unknown they took
00:43:04
hard drives they took computers they took flash drives uh they took a bunch of cell phones knives but we don't know
00:43:11
yet if one of those were the murder weapon if maybe the electronic device you know they found some evidence on um
00:43:20
on one of those flash drives or even in his car that they looked at they I know they swabbed seat belt
00:43:26
I think they swabbed in the trunk of his car maybe he put the murder weapon in there and they Ed luminol and they you
00:43:33
know got a hit and they found something we still don't know well I'd love to hear the confession to his wife yeah to
00:43:41
his wife and his mom and I mean yes con context matters for sure I want to hear it too so I'm trying not to make too
00:43:48
much judgment but as I sit and try to think how do you say it five and six times you know the defense acknowledg
00:43:55
this and and the prosecution acknowledge this like how do you do that five or six
00:43:59
times like without being incriminating like is it a are you joking five to six times are you being sarcastic five to
00:44:06
six times like how does that go down without being incriminating of yourself Without Really Trying to confess to it
00:44:14
and I'll hear well false confessions happen all the time well I don't know about all the time but that's usually
00:44:22
when you're confessing to law enforcement during an interrogation or a false confession is some Looney person
00:44:29
calling up saying that they did it now confessing over the phone to your wife and mother that's a lot different after
00:44:36
you've been arrested and incarcerated for that that specific crime and I I I love that you say F that uh you're
00:44:44
presented with this idea from others that false confessions happen all the time I'm I'm with you can you imagine if
00:44:49
they did happen all the time how messed up the the justice system would be we nothing would never get to court right
00:44:57
right I don't think people realize how many people get arrested for murder per year in the United States and you start
00:45:02
looking at the stats on false confessions it's probably smaller than people think so then we get this in
00:45:08
interesting information we're going to back up to September right so mid to late September this odinis Theory comes
00:45:16
out and what that leads into is some Discovery or photos that are leaked in early October so I'll give you the kind
00:45:26
of short of it and then we'll get into this mess here so the defense attorneys for Richard Allen they in September they
00:45:33
sent out this memorandum in support of a Frank's hearing that they were requesting so during this memorandum or
00:45:42
throughout this memorandum they are outlining an alternative murder theory that the girls were killed in
00:45:49
ritualistic fashion by members of a white supremist cult called odinism later prosecutor Nick mcleland
00:46:00
offered a comment to the media in which he called the theory quote fanciful defense for social media to devour end
00:46:08
quote he described the defense team's 136 page memorandum as quote colorful dramatic and highly unprofessional now
00:46:17
this the timing of this sucked on my end right because I went out to Crime con late September you know my book the deli
00:46:28
murders came out late April early May and so this this bit of information was not it was it was not in
00:46:39
in a form that was fully digestible I would say that's how I would like to catalog it at the time going into crime
00:46:48
con but this was the question that I think I got hit with the most while there was what do you think of this
00:46:55
odinism stuff and if I had to let's pretend that I was doing like a taking a poll right and I'm just simply basing
00:47:03
this off of very brief conversations because I did not want to have conversations with people about this
00:47:10
particular item of the case when as as said I had I cataloged it as not fully digestible at the time right and I do
00:47:20
not love to engage in depth conver in-depth conversation about something that I have not had the time or given
00:47:29
the information or materials to review beforehand but if I were to have taken a poll I would say that out of all the
00:47:39
people that I spoke to or that asked me a question about it I would say about 15% seem to believe in it maybe 20 25%
00:47:49
dismissed it and then everybody else was in the middle didn't really know what to
00:47:55
make of it and I was in a I was in a venue that that had over a thousand people that loved to talk True Crime so
00:48:06
I was in the right place just at the wrong time what were what were your guys's I guess first maybe your initial
00:48:15
reaction to this information when it came out and then how do you feel about it since then um fig you're
00:48:23
our guest so we'll start with you whenever there's new information I I take it in like all right let's let's
00:48:29
see I was just I understood that this was written by the defense and they obviously have motivation to make their
00:48:37
client look innocent so I kept that in the back of my mind but I read through it and it was it was a story and since I
00:48:46
kind of knew some of the people who might have been involved with this and heard some of their stories before it
00:48:51
seemed kind of some recycled things but I was just like well where's the evidence if there's multiple people
00:48:58
there then there should be more likely that DNA is left there could you place these people at the crime scene were
00:49:05
there Witnesses who saw multiple people um it just it didn't seem very likely because the more complex the more
00:49:13
people involved I think the probability of it being likely go down so I thought it was unprofessional
00:49:21
especially when they were they unnecessarily kept saying that know Abby was killed it slow and agonizing and
00:49:28
just things that didn't add any value to the motion that they were trying to write they didn't get to it until the
00:49:34
very end of the 136 pages and just the the title of it members of a pagan Norse religion called odinism hijacked by
00:49:44
white nationalist ritualistically sacrificed Libyan Abbey I just a national Inquirer just popped in my head
00:49:50
when I first read that and it's yeah you have to explain why would White nationalists kill two white girls you
00:49:58
have to explain that and if it was this uh ritual like how often do they do it is it when's the last time that it
00:50:06
happened uh was this their first time and since since we know the family spoken out and said that this trip that
00:50:12
the girls took to the trails was kind of spontaneous right it was they weren't really sure if they uh Libby wasn't sure
00:50:18
if she had a ride so they show up right so how if if it was this uh you know this ritual they didn't have the victims
00:50:26
planned out like how would they know that Libby and Abby were going to be there after they set everything up
00:50:31
they're just hoping that two girls two white girls would walk across I mean it just I don't know it it didn't pass the
00:50:39
BS meter uh for me it was a lot of BS well and fig could you explain to the audience this this was not the first
00:50:47
time that you've heard of this Theory right so there's been it's been talked about especially like the like the f
00:50:55
being on a tree is it an F is it blood spatter no one no one really knows but people's minds run wild um so before
00:51:04
this came out I heard about it and and this will kind of get into some of the leaks because the leaks that we talk
00:51:11
about it it wasn't just the photos of the crime scene that was leaked there was other leaks and this was the
00:51:16
beginning of it where I heard about this maybe starting in June or July and definitely a lot in September that the
00:51:24
Defence was riding the story and they're going to blame it on odinism and I thought it was a joke right we all
00:51:30
get sent lots of stuff and lots of things and rumors and I had to go back after the thing came out and look at
00:51:37
look at the emails and like wow okay they were right but yeah this is one thing that was made clear where I I
00:51:44
thought it was a joke and I didn't even pay much attention to it until it came out and there was rumors that there this
00:51:50
was possibly connected to uh a biker gang and and and that came out years ago and and I think some people then took
00:52:00
that theory and then morphed it into this odinism Theory yeah there's the biker gang stuff you know just people
00:52:07
they see stuff on TV because remember they did that that motorcycle run kind of um in tribute of the girls and people
00:52:15
like oh it's got to be a biker then just because they saw bikers on on TV and they tie in the meth because they
00:52:21
probably watch Sons of Anarchy and they think that bikers mean drugs and there's
00:52:26
a you know history of drug abuse in the area and so they just try to connect all
00:52:31
these things and it just there's no there's no evidence there's nothing that places those people at the crime scene
00:52:38
like it does Richard Allen's shell casing I and one thing you know I know the captain knows this because of his
00:52:45
lengthy music career and I know he's played in similar gigs uh that involve this kind of effort but I think that
00:52:54
something that one thing that the general public may not be fully aware of is that these these biker runs when
00:53:02
you're doing uh a fundraiser they're incredibly valuable it they are very charitable groups and if you're really
00:53:15
trying to raise money quick for for something that is a is a great way to Kickstart your fundraising efforts if
00:53:25
with these different different biker groups the biker runs and things of that nature yeah so it was the the odinist
00:53:32
theory is what the defense try to use to come up with a compelling story to create an alternative Theory and they
00:53:40
made it more like a press release because the very beginning of that memorandum the 136 page Manifesto as
00:53:48
they call it is uh says hey if you never heard of the case before like it starts
00:53:53
with a statement like that meaning it's obvious they were trying to get it out to the public because of course if it
00:53:58
was meant just to go strictly to the courts the people who were supposed to only read it they've heard of the case
00:54:05
before I believe the prosecutors podcast did a great job of breaking down what the motion was supposed to be
00:54:14
about but this was simply just for the defense to put out alternative narrative and I think one of the brilliant things
00:54:23
that they did was and you've seen this in in other biopics with like OJ Simpson and and other cases like that we don't
00:54:34
have to defend everything we have to tell a better story and I think one of the brilliant things that they did was
00:54:41
naming the names that they did name you start diving into Richard Allen online there's not a lot there some of
00:54:50
the people they named there's a lot there and there's a lot of weird stuff and there's a lot of weird online
00:54:57
activity by these individuals and so you get the public I mean they name names and then the public
00:55:04
then goes and looks into these individuals and goes well these guys seem a little crazy yeah yeah that's a
00:55:11
good point I think they named people that were weird and into this odinism stuff the main person that they named
00:55:19
I've heard of him before and always had an alibi and then they even mention it in the memorandum this person had an
00:55:26
alibi they were at work and I believe it was on video like at least her car was so then they brought up Charles Manson
00:55:35
after that well maybe if he wasn't there maybe he was you know the Mastermind behind it had other people do his
00:55:41
bidding for him so it just kind of got like they didn't even fully believe it that they knew he had an
00:55:47
alibi and then they said uh one of the other gentlemen I won't name names was had a really weak Alibi because he was
00:55:53
at home and home is a really weak Alibi and then they proceeded to give Rick Allen's Alibi stating that Rick Allen
00:56:00
was at home so it's like you're saying it's a weak Alibi for one guy but then The Alibi you give Rick Allen during the
00:56:08
time of the murders was he was at home so they kind of contradicted themselves a little bit in that memorandum well and
00:56:15
this whole idea I think was I here's where I think the seed was planted with some people way back when when the
00:56:26
previous prosecutor Robert IES in it several interviews he says that there were signatures at the crime scene the
00:56:34
crime scene was odd it seems like everybody not just honed in on but they they heard that
00:56:42
loud and clear that statement from Robert IES loud and clear what they didn't what they didn't hear or what a
00:56:49
lot of the people did failed to hear is he follows that statement up with saying
00:56:54
well at most murder scenes there's a lot of things that are odd and that that is
00:57:01
so true and given the venue given that this is an outdoor scenario we are going to one would
00:57:09
anticipate seeing different odd aspects of this crime scene than one would in an indoor
00:57:18
murder scene we we have that seed that is planted with some and now it's like holy [ __ ] these by the grace of God two
00:57:27
sticks fell on each other in a in in this form and landed on the ground and holy hell it must mean something and so
00:57:36
I I don't know I I'm with you fig I thought that and I agree with what prosecutor Nick mccleland is saying that
00:57:42
it's a fanciful defense for the social for social media to devour and devour they did um it was colorful as he said
00:57:50
it was dramatic as he said highly unprofessional I don't know it's it is their job to defend this individual it
00:57:58
is their job to to present other theories and maybe even other suspects and here's what's
00:58:06
weird like so if they you know they are reaching out they're talking and they're
00:58:10
kind of cataloging a collective of other theories and suspects and things like that what's interesting about this this
00:58:17
Theory and choosing this one because that's what they did ultimately they chose this Theory over several others
00:58:24
but this one also provides something that many of the other theories does not provide one it pro provides an
00:58:33
alternative suspect suspects and alternative motive and alternative narrative but it
00:58:41
also now tells the public not only did they get the wrong guy but the guy that they got locked up he's a victim too
00:58:50
he's a victim too in this find a little spot in your heart for this guy what here's what I think they did I think
00:58:56
they started going through every podcast every YouTube channel every online forum
00:59:04
and said what story what narrative can we tell that also will account for what our client has already done our client
00:59:14
has now arrested our client has now confessed to multiple individuals how can we we need to find a
00:59:23
narrative that also will account for why he did this why did he confess well he only confessed because these members of
00:59:34
the odinism are connected with law enforcement and connected with prison guards and the prison guards basically
00:59:43
forced him to confess and it's it's a you know the the story is lunacy but they had to find a narrative like you said
00:59:56
they had to do their job and they found a Outlander story that basically connects all the dots you have to really
01:00:05
go out on a limb to believe all this stuff they probably realize that people don't pay much attention to detail
01:00:10
because in that statement about in the memorandum about the prison guards kind of threatening Rick Allen there's a
01:00:17
footnote on that page fit note 15 that basically says well this never actually happened but it could it could have
01:00:24
happened so people skip that footnote over and they're just like oh see the guards threatened him like no read the
01:00:31
whole page read the footnote at the bottom they're sneaky it says that that didn't actually happen but it it it
01:00:37
could have happened well and if we want to go down the road of every time that a a member of the
01:00:46
corrections or an inmate or somebody else being housed in a jail threaten somebody being accused of killing a
01:00:55
child or children that there must be some greater conspiracy involved uh that's a commonplace thing
01:01:03
that happens in not just Carol County Indiana it happens everywhere in damn near every country on this planet when
01:01:13
you have a person accused of these types of crimes it's not terribly uncommon for
01:01:20
them to be threatened or maybe even harassed I I look I can't control the inmate
01:01:26
population I wish that Corrections members of Corrections would not do it but look it happens it's it
01:01:35
it's and it's going to continue to happen and I love what you said there fake because that's the thing when I
01:01:42
thought okay right after crime con con I I told several people there that if they
01:01:47
really poked the bear enough I said look this is all I I've not had time to 100%
01:01:53
go through every everything that is out there at the moment because I think this
01:01:58
actually came out on the day that I was traveling to Orlando and so I'm trying to pick up bits and pieces of it at best
01:02:05
that I can because I kept getting asked questions about it but I when digging into it I same thing it's like okay cool
01:02:14
you guys released three 136 pages that are supposed to be in support of this Theory and while why you should get this
01:02:23
Frank's hearing which which initially correct me if I'm wrong fig that the Frank's hearing was
01:02:28
to dispute that they should have ever gotten the uh search warrant for Richard Allen in the first place and so but
01:02:37
within this 130 page document you multiple times you contradict yourself and also say like it is our
01:02:48
belief and we found reason to believe this but oh there's also no evidence to support this like what like so we're
01:02:57
just going to pull [ __ ] out of thin air now and and present it in in a a court
01:03:01
document yeah I mean and kind of worse than that is when they said that they were they tried to connect them to the
01:03:10
crime scene the the odinist folks and the one guy looked like they were placing the most blame on um who had the
01:03:17
mental capacity of a seven or eight-year-old who lived 130 miles away and didn't have a car that person it
01:03:23
just seemed like like they didn't have enough on them so what they did was they they said that there were horns placed
01:03:31
at the at the crime scene because this individual said that he helped Place horns on one of the victim's heads so
01:03:38
horns or antlers something like that and that we'll get into the crime scene photo stuff but that just not
01:03:48
true there were there weren't any horns or antlers want to thank everybody for joining us
01:04:08
here in the garage for this Deli murders update join us back here in the garage for part two and you know what to do be
01:04:17
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