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[Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:32
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that well he no longer watches the Browns but when he
00:01:38
does they still lose he is the captain cuz they always lose it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for
00:01:45
listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend this week we are drinking Shiner holiday cheer garage grade four out of
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five bottle caps yum yum yum Shiner holiday cheer is Bavarian style dark wheat ale duncle vison brewed with Texas
00:02:06
peaches and roasted pecans may your days be merry and bright and may all your beers be as delicious as this one and
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this great glass of holiday cheer was brought to us by These Fine people right here first up in the garage beer fans
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Farah and her father Marty down in fluger Texas lugerville scherville next up we have Edna Edna
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gave us a check and we can't cash the check but uh we wanted to give her a cheers anyways Edna this one is for you
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next up we have Kent in Atlanta Georgia oh wait Kent requested a shout out from the captain so please sir do your thing
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Kent I like your chbe next we have Valerie and Harrison Berg Virginia and next up we have Danielle and Silverbell
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Washington Silverdale Silverdale sugarville next we have Bonnie in Chino California it's time to drink all the
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beer and last but not least Captain a big shout out and thank you to Melissa and Three Bridges New Jersey so thanks
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to everybody for filling up the fridge for this week's show if you'll want to help us out with next week's Beer Run go
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to True Crim garage.com click on that donate button BW wi beer run so kind of interesting how we got this week's case
00:03:27
suggestion we went to go see the black belt of comedians Michael lenoi and he is known worldwide as the greatest
00:03:35
kicking standup comedian of all time and while we were there we got the chance to
00:03:39
speak with him and Captain this was not a suggested case he threatened us he threatened us with his black belt and
00:03:46
the kicking and the comedy the kicking Styles he also has a podcast called guys night out so check that out you can see
00:03:54
him on tour he's opening up for The Elder himself the Cuda the M want to fire him crystalia and Mike was not the
00:04:02
only one to suggest this case this is a pretty popular case we've gotten a lot of suggestions for because it's been
00:04:08
covered on the confession tapes on Netflix yeah and this is a case that's confusing and there's a lot of things
00:04:14
that aren't clear a lot of things to sift through it's going to leave you maybe a little angry but hopefully we
00:04:20
can get to the bottom of this and that's why you want to gather around cuz we're
00:04:23
going to break it down for you so we can break it down grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:04:30
[Music] cribe [Music] July 13th 1994 just after 2: a.m. the Belleview washhington Police Department are called
00:05:22
to a crime scene teenagers Sebastian Burns and Atif rafay returned to A's family's home
00:05:30
which is located in a quiet upper middle class area of Belleview when they arrive they stumbled
00:05:36
onto a horrific scene ati's parents and sister had been brutally attacked Sebastian Burns called 911
00:05:46
asking for an [Music] ambulance [Music] what you rep uh there's uh I need uh an ambulance what's the problem there there
00:06:27
some kind of freaking [Applause] okay just calm down what's the problem the two uh uh my friend his mom
00:06:41
and dad uh are we think they're dead just calm down I I don't think it's safe here I want we'll be outside okay
00:06:54
go ahead go outside please fast okay they're on the way they're on the way hold out side okay go
00:07:00
[Music] ahead as the young men waited for help to arrive ati's older sister bosma was
00:07:19
clinging to life moaning in her bedroom detective Bob Thompson was one of the officers that responded to the scene of
00:07:26
the attacks according to him it appeared A's mother was the first to be killed A's
00:07:33
father was the next to be murdered detective Thompson said it was Overkill and it looked like someone had hit the
00:07:41
man 40 or 50 times ati's sister died at the hospital just a few hours after the attack unable to tell the detectives who
00:07:51
had attacked her this is the true East murders [Music] the clip that was played there the 911
00:08:15
call that is 18-year-old Sebastian Burns calling to report that when he had returned with his friend Atif back to
00:08:22
their home back to A's home that they found A's mother and father very badly beaten to the point that they believe
00:08:30
them to be dead mhm they found A's sister very badly beaten um near death and they're calling in they're asking
00:08:40
for police they're asking for ambulance they're asking for help they're afraid that whoever did this whoever
00:08:47
perpetrated this attack may still be in the home and they decide to go and wait outside until the police arrive now I've
00:08:57
read some reports here that state that the police did have a little trouble finding the location of the crime scene
00:09:03
finding the home that they were calling about uh and as we stated Sebastian and Atif would have been outside waiting for
00:09:10
the police and they had to flag down the police to show them where in fact the house was a little background here
00:09:18
captain on the rafay family the rafay family was the the family that was attacked so the rafay family of four had
00:09:26
just moved to Belleview Washington from Vancouver Canada the father Tariq RAF was a very talented structural engineer
00:09:36
who had worked on buildings all over the world the mother Sultana she had a doctorate in nutrition
00:09:44
and but she devoted her life to raising her children this is bosma and Atif me similar to me I mean have my doctorate
00:09:52
but I I continue to work on the podcast I have many doctorates from many of the highest
00:09:59
um the highest of points like Mount Everest from some of the best universities on both the east and west
00:10:07
coast but enough about me right um Sebastian and Atif they had been best friends since high school both of them
00:10:15
were very I can you know I've I've seen interviews with these guys read stuff with these guys I can honestly say they
00:10:23
are very smart young men um probably more intelligent than me even though I hold all those doctorates from many very
00:10:31
distinguished universities now Sebastian was raised in a loving family with English roots and grew up playing
00:10:38
classical cello uh he became a member of the royal uh Canadian Air Cadets and was
00:10:44
given an award by Prince Edward like we said both of these guys are intellectuals but the other problem with
00:10:50
these two guys is they actually believe that they are smarter than probably what
00:10:55
they are and smarter than everybody they assume a lot lot of times that they are
00:11:00
smart they're the smartest guy in the room yeah that just kind of that kind of just bleeds through them
00:11:06
doesn't it when you when you when you see them speaking and everybody knows that kind of guy in high school where
00:11:12
where you know he's smart all your friends know he's smart but it's the fact that he puts himself on a pedestal
00:11:18
that you're just like yeah you know thisy there's an arrogance about both of these young men it stinks Atif attended
00:11:26
uh Cornell University so he he is in his summer year of college right Cornell is a Ivy League school but
00:11:34
it was the only Ivy League school that accepted him so it wasn't like he had a bunch of options so let's as far as Ivy
00:11:42
League schools go let's clean up this background information here a little bit before we move into the crime and the
00:11:48
crime scene um so the rafay family of four had just moved to Belleview Washington from Vancouver Canada during
00:11:57
this time three people were living in the rafay home Atif is away at college and his friend Sebastian still lives up
00:12:05
in Canada now during this night on this night when they find A's parents murdered and his sister attacked Atif
00:12:16
had been staying he had been visiting his family from college for a few nights and his best friend from high school
00:12:21
Sebastian came down to visit him while he was staying in Belleview Washington Washington obviously much closer to
00:12:29
Vancouver than Cornell University so the two friends Atif and Sebastian had been
00:12:34
out for a night out on the town when they returned to A's home and they discovered that this attack had occurred
00:12:40
so let's take a look at what went down in the crime scene is there any evidence to tell us who the perpetrator or
00:12:47
perpetrators are uh what are the investigator suspicions and what are they finding at the crime scene and we
00:12:54
can do that as we go through this uh sort of timeline here starting with with the 2 a.m. marker on July 13th 1994 so
00:13:03
as we said Sebastian and Atif discovered the bodies of ati's parents and they call 911 this is roughly at 2: a.m. and
00:13:11
we know this because the 911 call comes in at 2011 a.m. now ati's sister bosma she then shortly later dies in the
00:13:22
hospital from injuries inflicted from that attack from the time that the boys found the body
00:13:29
until 8:30 a.m. that morning Sebastian and Atif are up all night with police mostly at the Belleview Police
00:13:37
Department during this time they are each interviewed separately twice when asked where they had been that evening
00:13:45
the boys provided a full account stating that at 8:30 p.m. they drove to a place
00:13:51
called The Keg restaurant for a bite to eat they had a salad and they each had a
00:13:57
glass of wine then they went to a 950 p.m. showing of the movie The Lion King after the movie they stopped for uh they
00:14:08
stopped off at a club and they left the waitress a tip uh a $6 tip on a $9 tab mhm I've actually I've seen this these
00:14:18
numbers reported slightly different on this uh what their tab was and what their tip was the General thought is
00:14:26
that they left uh what would be considered to be a high a noticeably High tip for whatever they
00:14:35
purchased at that club MH Sebastian and Atif provided police with their clothing
00:14:40
that they wore that evening they were both examined by um an alternative light source for evidence of blood spatter and
00:14:49
examined for gunshot residue when both tests come up negative correct the first thing that troubled police was how could
00:14:58
Sebastian and Atif provide so much detail about where they had been that evening but not recall key moments at
00:15:05
the murder scene well I mean I think one of the explanations would be you know you got
00:15:12
fight or flight and you know anytime and they flew yes yes they flew and I think
00:15:20
then it's the idea of what can you remember because you're in shock I mean it's like the 911 call and we can break
00:15:27
that down later but uh some people see somebody that's trying to lie or put on a show and some people see um somebody
00:15:34
that is in complete shock and has no clue what to do well here's my thoughts on their I personally I think this is a
00:15:42
weird thing for the police to say that this drew some suspicion for them how could they provide so much detail about
00:15:49
what they had been doing that evening but not recall key moments at the Mur scene and and I need to be a little more
00:15:55
clear about what they mean by that but let's get into that that here because first of all we we see that they're at a
00:16:02
restaurant at 8:30 p.m. they're not according to their story they do not return home till 2:
00:16:08
a.m. okay so that's 5 and 1 half hours yeah you can provide a lot of detail of something you were doing for 5 and a
00:16:15
half hours right when they returned to the crime scene when they found A's parents it would have been a matter of
00:16:21
minutes by the time they would have called 911 and went to that fight or flight mode and flew out of the home and
00:16:28
and remained out by the curb to wait for police to arrive so you're talking about
00:16:32
a comparison of 5 1/2 hours to a matter of minutes of course you're going to get
00:16:37
more detail from something that you spent that amount of time on yeah so the story is is that they got home roughly
00:16:43
about 2:00 and then when they entered the home they're probably only in the home for about 3 minutes until the 911
00:16:49
call was placed right so I personally for me I don't see anything weird about not knowing that this is where it does
00:16:57
get a little weird though when when they are taking when they are going through the
00:17:03
crime scene and they're going through the home they're asking Atif and Sebastian if if they had touched any of
00:17:11
the victims and Atif can't REM like most of the time he's saying I might have touched my mom I I don't think I did no
00:17:21
I don't think I did and that's basically how he answers when he's he's question about his mother and his father mhm I
00:17:28
may have but I don't think I did no I probably did not I understand that we have a situation where he's probably
00:17:35
very much in shock um I have a hard time believing that he wouldn't be aware if he touched
00:17:43
his if he touched any of the victims and why would this be a key thing for the police well and this is
00:17:52
why I think he could be vague about it if he is trying to hide something you would rather be vague about whether you
00:17:58
touch one of the victims than to give a definitive answer because they're going to be able to do test on you like we
00:18:05
said testing for blood spatter testing for gunshot residue they're going to do tests on you that will determine whether
00:18:13
you are being honest about having touched the victims or not sometimes the honest answer is I don't know mhm now
00:18:21
detectives also point out that the killer or Killers may have known the victims and obviously we come across
00:18:29
this with the every case that we cover that's always a possibility and usually it's a
00:18:35
likelihood they could find no signs of forced entry and that is going to be something
00:18:42
that could be key here because remember on the 911 call the first thing that Sebastian says is there appears to have
00:18:50
been some sort of Breakin there the police arable to find any signs of forced entry so what does
00:18:57
that mean when well could could the killer or Killers have gained access to the home without breaking in possible
00:19:06
possible people leave their doors unlocked people figure out ways to get into homes could The Killers or killer
00:19:13
have known the victims and were let into the home that's a possibility as well gained access to the home through one of
00:19:21
the victims themselves right or they got lucky and there was just the door wasn't
00:19:26
locked or did the killer kill were they already inside the home when the attack went down and they didn't
00:19:33
need to gain entry into the home mhm so those are your options there if you cannot find a sign of of obvious Breakin
00:19:42
this the thought that the perpetrators may have known the victims also comes up in this fact of the crime scene so
00:19:49
detective Thompson would say that the mother ati's mother was attacked first she was downstairs and then we have the
00:19:57
father who was upstairs presumably sleeping mhm that he was attacked second in his bed and how were these
00:20:05
individuals attacked um it it had appeared that it would have been with with the t's mother anyway that it would
00:20:11
have been a a like a blitz attack that she probably was surprised and struck with a heavy object right so a hammer or
00:20:20
a baseball bat or something like that yeah board anything like that um that same weapon was used again on thief's
00:20:28
father upstairs in the bedroom as he lies sleeping that would be a sneak attack pretty much that he was unaware
00:20:34
that he was being attacked probably did not hear his wife having been attacked just before him so the father though
00:20:44
was was brutalized I mean he was hit just like Thompson said 40 or 50 times let's go back to the mom real quick cuz
00:20:52
she was hit she was dead uh her face was covered somebody covered her face probably afterwards mhm and she was
00:21:00
Facing East mhm which uh this is a Muslim family so that would be the direction in which they pray mhm so then
00:21:10
let's go to the father so she was kind of killed but almost shown some kind of respect after the murder I guess uh if
00:21:18
that makes any sense and then the father is just bludgeon not only bludgeon he was he was destroyed the killer didn't
00:21:26
want to just to to kill A's father that person wanted to destroy him like I said
00:21:33
detective Thompson saying it looked like he had been hit 40 or 50 times and whatever object was used to kill the man
00:21:41
had sprayed matter yeah there's blood everywhere yeah not just blood we got we got blood we got teeth we got
00:21:50
pieces of bone skin flesh there's there's matter all over sprayed all over that room from wherever he was hit and
00:21:59
then pulled back up again struck again and every time you do that it's bringing a little bit with it when you pull it
00:22:06
back up and it's spraying it on the walls in the ceiling of this bedroom then we have the sister the older Atif
00:22:12
older sister bosma who is attacked last and we haven't brought it up yet but his
00:22:16
sister is uh she's autistic yeah and I don't know the I don't know the severity of her autism and I bring that up
00:22:26
because of a statement that the police made I want to be very clear this is the police statement not there's different
00:22:32
there's different spectrums yeah so the police's statement would be that this points again that the killer
00:22:41
knew the family that knew the family well to the point that they would have attacked the parents first and killed
00:22:48
the parents first attacking the sister last knowing that she would be unable to call
00:22:56
911 right that's what the police had stated now to the 911 call Captain remember we had stated Sebastian said
00:23:04
there was some type of Breakin and I want to talk about what the detectives say that they are seeing at the home not
00:23:10
only no sign of forced entry but also just looking at the room and rooms of the home they're stating that it appears
00:23:19
to the detectives that boxes were okay so the home they had recently moved there right
00:23:26
so you have a lot of boxes that have not been unpacked and put away these items have not been put away yet right so
00:23:34
whoever broke into this home quote unquote broke into this home they didn't appear to
00:23:39
have sifted through items that were still in the boxes um the detective said that it looked like they just tipped
00:23:47
over boxes yeah that they didn't really go through anything the drawers were open but nobody it just looked like
00:23:54
people open up the drawer maybe looked inside didn't didn't rumage around didn't pull anything out yes so go ahead
00:24:02
right and Atif is the one that's going to say well my walkman's missing I think the VCR is missing yes this is also an
00:24:09
individual yes he is the son of the the parents that were murdered um but he hasn't lived in this property for a long
00:24:18
time you know he's been away at school so like you said first of all the house isn't put
00:24:25
together you know fully yet yeah from the move and then you have an individual that's only been there for a couple days
00:24:32
so now you're trying to say hey what's missing MH well that's a lot easier to do when the house is put together but
00:24:39
when the house isn't put together it all looks like stuff's missing yeah I here's
00:24:44
the thing though I I kind of I'm going to go with the and if if for anybody out there that is unfamiliar with this case
00:24:52
you can see what road we're going down here it's starting to look like the police have suspicions regarding Atif
00:24:59
and Sebastian right okay and that's why we're going through these crime scene items one at a time now I have to kind
00:25:06
of go with the the police's if they're being honest if they're being unbiased in their
00:25:11
opinion I have to go with their belief when they say you know it looks like people kind of staged this break in I
00:25:19
because they they would have seen robberies in and burglaries a hundred times you know you you you're a
00:25:25
detective you've been on the force for quite some time by the time you're a detective and you've seen break-ins
00:25:30
you've seen uh this kind of thing go down and when it doesn't look right when it doesn't pass the smell test it it
00:25:38
looks like a setup to these guys it looks like a staged burglary well like I said there's a couple problems first
00:25:44
problem is they just moved into the property and the stuff is not put away so yeah you might have seen a bunch of
00:25:51
you know break-ins and burglaries before but how many times have you seen one where somebody's just moving in my other
00:25:58
issue with the police going down this road is the idea that you don't know what this person that might might you
00:26:06
know they might have broke in to kill you but there was a reason why they was rumaging through your stuff and that
00:26:13
reason could be a stack of papers or something that you would have no there would be no clear evidence that this
00:26:21
item is now missing you bring up a very good point there Captain so we have a stating that his walk
00:26:28
was was taken uh a VCR was taken from the home which seems crazy to have three people murdered just to take a vcr and a
00:26:37
Walkman um but you bring up a very good point we have three of the four family members are dead these people had just
00:26:45
moved there you're right there are items they could have had that if if Atif can't say okay this item's missing that
00:26:53
item's missing this stack of papers is missing we had um some Jew jewry that was missing if he doesn't report
00:27:00
something as not being still at the home the detectives are going to have no clue
00:27:05
that other additional items are actually missing from the home right like you said I mean you know his father was an
00:27:10
engineer and he was working on some uh pretty interesting stuff so we'll get back to that after the break but you
00:27:17
know again with the mother he's not going to know if a piece of jewelry is missing or something like that I I tell
00:27:22
you what I I lived with my father in my teenage years I lived with uh my before that and I couldn't have told you you
00:27:30
know if somebody broke into our home and stole half my mom's jewelry I wouldn't be able to tell you what any of it was
00:27:35
you know my father had guns in the home when we grew up and right machine guns all kinds of cannons cannons um hand
00:27:43
cannons I and you know what he um fancies himself a bit of a collector I wouldn't be able to tell you if the
00:27:50
guy's got two guns or if he has 10 you know what I mean I I just don't know it's not my personal belonging so
00:27:58
um yeah I would have no clue you bring up a very good point there well we'll get right back to my amazing points and
00:28:03
the point on your head right after this quick beer break this show is sponsored by better
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today all right we're back cheers mates cheers to you Captain so we have the 911
00:30:24
call to talk about um any anything that you find anything that jumps off the page to you immediately regarding the
00:30:32
911 call no uh and I wish we had a clear version I hate when we have a kind of crappy audio but I think you can
00:30:40
decipher it enough uh again I think this is a weird situation you know either you think
00:30:47
Sebastian is lying or you just think he is uh Disturbed or he's out of his mind so Sebastian's the one making the call
00:30:55
Atif presumably is in the home with him when this call is going down and we hear
00:31:02
immediately Sebastian sounds to be confused or stuttering um in a state of panic or shock that's what I hear that's
00:31:12
my you know that's my general thought on his behavior now I have seen several interviews with with Sebastian I've also
00:31:22
seen uh videotape footage of him speaking several times mhm he does on occasion have a little bit of a a
00:31:30
stutter a little bit of a stammer um so that's not doesn't it doesn't seem to be my thing is Captain I was trying
00:31:39
to figure out was this a put on was he putting this on this this act so I have to give him the benefit of the doubt
00:31:46
there and I don't feel like it's a total put on now one thing that I did find weird is several times he starts to say
00:31:55
something and then kind of stops and re kind of rears himself you know where he'll start to say um the two which it
00:32:06
sounded like he was about to say the two adults or the two parents um and then he says uh my my
00:32:15
friend's parents both of them he he struggles to find the right words and then he says we think they're dead he
00:32:22
just we think they're dead very fast like that right which I don't know maybe I'm maybe I'm putting this under the
00:32:28
microscope too much here because I don't know it's hard to say how anybody would
00:32:32
react in this situation but I do feel like where where the stutter and where the stammer might not be a put on I
00:32:40
question is he choosing his words and why would you take the time to choose your words especially when you end the
00:32:47
call saying hurry fast fast right but he might not be actually choosing his words
00:32:52
it might just be he's in the moment of speaking but because he's in such shock he he is trying to edit himself in his
00:33:00
brain cuz his brain is not functioning correctly mhm and uh you know the interview with him is he said I was out
00:33:06
of my mind when I was making that call so possibly you know he might not even remember the call the the fact of the
00:33:13
matter is you got two boys that walk into a situation this is their accounts they
00:33:21
see the dead mother MH they go up now now you have to check on the father he is brutally
00:33:30
murdered unrecognizable he would be unrecognizable maybe even as a you might not even recognize him as a person at
00:33:38
that point right um and then you and yeah and that room's completely covered in blood and then you got to check on
00:33:46
your sister but before you get to the point where you're checking on your sister you can hear her
00:33:54
mhm and uh you know you know so one would assume that you would run to her Aid to help her but uh also you might
00:34:05
again it's the fight ORF flight mentality and if your body tells you to to fly out of there there's nothing you
00:34:11
can do yeah so let's be clear about that his Atif sister was still alive during the
00:34:18
the call of the 911 she didn't die until they got her back to the hospital right
00:34:23
um but how much the boys the boys and I keep calling them boys they're 18-year-old young men at this point
00:34:31
right um but they're very sheltered this is this is upper middle class and online
00:34:36
they're offered often report uh referred to as the boys as well so I think that's
00:34:40
why that's seeped into my psyche here but so so Sebastian and Atif well hold on I was saying that they're upper
00:34:46
middle class I think that's important here yeah because these are 18 year-old kids that were sheltered very sheltered
00:34:53
and and I'd argue to say that they're just upper class kids mhm yeah yeah I found I found that Weir weird when they
00:35:02
describe them as upper middle class and then I saw the neighborhood and the homes in the neighborhood and I thought
00:35:07
well if that's upper I always thought I was middle class and when they said they
00:35:11
upper middle middle class I thought wow I'm poor as dirt we have a we have a podcast in the garage yeah you know the
00:35:19
homes were very nice and that's a very nice neighborhood so to me that looks like an upper class let's all right
00:35:25
let's get away from ke's dad was an engineer so I mean he has his Doctorate I mean he was doing well for himself but
00:35:34
they did not help his sister they did not help his dying sister right but it wasn't again that's you know so in some
00:35:43
terms you can say that and it makes it seem so bad it didn't help the dying sister she she was in a state that
00:35:51
neither one of them could have done anything without they they had no medical training so it wasn't like they
00:35:57
could really do anything to help her do you think they even opened the door to her room may I I think they did that's
00:36:06
one thing I question because I I couldn't find I could find parts of their interview where they where Atif
00:36:12
was being asked if he had touched the body of his mother or his father I couldn't find any parts of the actual
00:36:19
interview where he was being asked questions directly about his sister yeah well I think he said he knew there was
00:36:26
something he could do to help her right that that that's the only part I could find you know well his statement was I
00:36:32
don't even know how to put a you know I don't even know how to put a Band-Aid on
00:36:36
or something like that which I think was kind of a dumb statement but this was also in a situation where it's like if I
00:36:42
came into the garage and somebody bludging you and you're hanging on to dear life I can't do
00:36:49
nothing so I have two options uh sit there in the room I could call and sit in the room with you
00:36:57
and you know lose my appetite or I call the police and I step in the other room and you know pray to God that the
00:37:05
ambulance gets there quick enough to save you because I don't have the means in order to save you yeah I I just
00:37:13
wanted to hear from his from his mouth that they had in fact opened the door and in some form checked on her now
00:37:20
here's the other thing yeah I I don't know if I definitively ever saw him or heard him say that I also wanted to hear
00:37:27
him say definitively that he touched the body of his sister because you here's what what I'm getting at for him to to
00:37:36
lay out the assessment that I could there was nothing I could do there was nothing we could do to help her or to
00:37:42
save her I want there to be some kind of uh investigation by him to arrive to that
00:37:51
conclusion right but there was also the statement by Sebastian that we think that somebody is in the house
00:38:00
or possibly is in the house so based on their story these two guys go in they find the mom they find the dad then
00:38:07
there's the sister they hear the sister or maybe they see the Sister We're Not really clear on that but for whatever
00:38:15
reason when they go outside to make the 911 call they don't flee the scene right
00:38:21
they say we're here we're going to flag you down and we're staying outside because we think that maybe this
00:38:30
killer is still there and then police want to come out and say well that's a little odd don't you think why would you
00:38:36
just hang out outside if you think the Killer is in the house well look again there might be 18y old uh young men but
00:38:44
they're naive and they they can be as intellectual as they want these guys are not street smart at all these guys are
00:38:52
very sheltered so uh if it me and I walk into a house and there's this attack and I call the
00:39:00
police and I say hey you get here the police probably should tell you hey you might want to go outside the person
00:39:06
might still be in the house and there might be some evidence some noise that they heard that they were they went oh
00:39:12
[ __ ] oh [ __ ] do you hear something in the basement somebody might be in the house I'm finding a weapon and I'm going
00:39:20
outside and I'm giving myself some space and I'm going to keep my eyes on that house and if somebody comes out of that
00:39:26
house you know it's go time you got to fight for your life at that point you have
00:39:30
three dead people inside well and you you've made the right call essentially because remember you know when I worked
00:39:37
security for years one thing that they taught us was if you are trying to protect someone okay let's say there's a
00:39:44
Breakin K Fu let's say there's a break into to the garage right now okay and let's pretend that this garage has many
00:39:52
different rooms and we keep pretending the garage this episode and a couple different levels as well wouldn't it be
00:39:58
great if the garage actually did have several levels rul anyway one day my friend four levels so if somebody came
00:40:06
into the garage and they wanted to harm or kill you okay right doubt it but let me tell you
00:40:15
what what my training what what we were taught during this training was that unless you have unless you have some
00:40:22
kind of setup where you have like a Panic Room mhm which most home would not have a Panic Room not not a real legit
00:40:30
Panic Room not telling you if I have one or not but what I'm saying is that if my
00:40:34
job is to protect you from anything I'm I'm your security you have to listen to this all
00:40:42
right I hope my security works out a little bit more no but what the training taught us was or big weapons was that if
00:40:49
my job is to protect you against anything and somebody breaks into this home or to a place where you are staying
00:40:55
and I am guarding ing you mhm my number one object my number one um objective is to get you
00:41:05
outside unless there's a legit Panic Room the numbers say that as soon as I get you outside out of that building
00:41:12
rather than trying to hide you in a closet somewhere or rather than try to hide you in a room that's far away from
00:41:18
the break-in point right that the your your numbers of living and surviving that Breakin and that attack significant
00:41:26
increase if I get you outside so you in fact did the right thing and they in fact be it that they be naive
00:41:34
18-year-olds in fact did the right thing the the thing that I keep going back to
00:41:39
though is what how much information did they collect regarding the sister before
00:41:44
they decided that that that one there's nothing we can do for her before we flee
00:41:49
the home and two we can't flee the home with because there's a chance that if if
00:41:54
she's in a certain State you might be able to bring bring her with you out of the house right I and that didn't happen
00:42:00
as well and and and I think where the police are questioning their moves are they're saying well yes you went outside
00:42:07
but you were you're like you're like 20t 20 25 feet you know uh from the home right but what do you want them to do
00:42:17
run run a couple blocks away what do you want them to do well actually thank God they didn't because
00:42:23
they wouldn't have been there to flag down the police right um so no I'm not saying that that's I'm not questioning
00:42:29
what they did I'm bringing up the police and the and and the investigators thoughts and suspicions on their moves
00:42:36
throughout that evening right and that's just their opinions of what they think this means or that means oh what was his
00:42:42
demeanor on the 911 call what was their demeanor when we got there this is all speculation do we have any actual
00:42:48
evidence yeah well uh bust out the luminol this whole place is a crime scene so they're going to use the
00:42:55
luminol to spray down uh the crime scene they're looking for evidence of blood that's been washed
00:43:01
away don't ever say that at a party hey break out the luminol it's time to party
00:43:07
um but what they find here and this is very troubling they when they conduct this test it showed an enormous amount
00:43:15
of Blood on the shower walls so the killer had used the shower before leaving the killer popped in the shower
00:43:24
washed himself herself off and then left the scene um and now the police are wondering this okay this is a very this
00:43:35
is not a normal thing to go down at a at a murder scene at a triple homicide scene right um so this again is going to
00:43:45
lead them back to the thought that the the attacker knew the family and knew the family intimately knew them to the
00:43:51
point where they could they would have access to the home and they would also not be in such a hurry to leave the home
00:43:58
that they would clean themselves up before leaving the home right and like you said this is not very typical but we
00:44:05
have tons of blood in the room that the father was killed in tons of blood we have tons of splatter everywhere yeah so
00:44:12
if the killer had left the home in the clothes that they arrived in that they wore during the attack and didn't bother
00:44:19
to wash themselves off you would see a person covered in blood from head to toe leaving the crime
00:44:26
right and leaving evidence as they went so possibly this this is something that could be considered like a hit Type move
00:44:35
Killer goes in kills its victims cleans itself up cleans themselves up um and we
00:44:42
have hairs found in the shower as well mhm and those hairs that they're going to find they're going to find over 20
00:44:48
some hairs mhm in that shower and that's going to be of Sebastian Burns but he was staying at the house
00:44:56
for 3 days prior right so there's your reason why if there is going to be any hairs in that shower that's reasons why
00:45:05
well let's let's talk about why the I mean we already it's obvious why the killer would take a shower but let's
00:45:11
talk about like what you said if this was a hit or if somebody had came in to kill the family for some
00:45:18
reason it it has happened in other crimes there's other crimes that I've read about where the killer has in fact
00:45:25
done something that was totally unnecessary at a crime scene where they've they've killed people and then
00:45:31
they they decided to sit in the kitchen and drink a few beers before they left or they had a bowl of cereal or they
00:45:38
took a they took a shower to clean themselves up or I'm just joking but but you would have think about
00:45:46
this if somebody was planning if someone had planned this murder and somebody had
00:45:51
watched the family because the first thing you got to question is your immediate thought would be as soon as
00:45:57
you kill this family that you would want to flee the scene as fast as possible to
00:46:01
evade capture right mhm that's your immediate first thought but if I had been watching this family and I had been
00:46:09
planning to kill this family now keep in mind maybe I did my surveillance on the
00:46:14
home and on the family the week before mhm and my and my surveillance ended I watched them for a a course of three or
00:46:23
four days the week before well according to my surveillance my belief would be my
00:46:31
knowledge would tell me that only three people live in that home right and so having just killed all three of them I
00:46:39
may not be in a huge hurry to leave the home I I might make a bunch of noise right I might take the time to clean
00:46:47
myself up if I brought a duffel bag with a with a change of clothes in that duffel bag annihilated this family
00:46:55
hopped in the shower threw my bloody clothes in the duffel bag put on the fresh clothes walked out of there all
00:47:01
you would see is one very handsome very clean man walking out with the duffel bag right that's
00:47:08
um that's opinion right but so what I'm getting at is it's not impossible it doesn't have to be Atif or Sebastian or
00:47:17
the two of them having lived there or staying there that took the shower right so the the cops are again and let's
00:47:24
reiterate the fact that the cop then question them for hours they do test there's no trace of blood I mean one
00:47:31
would argue that oh well they took a shower so that's why there's no blood cuz they washed it all off there's a lot
00:47:38
of blood a lot of blood I would I would actually have to argue that somebody would have to take quite a long shower
00:47:45
to make sure they didn't have any any blood on them mhm and so again these guys are not Mastermind killers that we
00:47:55
we know of so would they would they even know if they had any residue left on them who knows well I think but I think
00:48:04
there in lies the problem is that let's say Atif and Sebastian are totally innocent and all they did was stumble
00:48:11
onto a crime scene the problem here is you find nothing on these guys you would actually if they were just victims that
00:48:18
had stumbled onto a crime scene you would I would actually believe that I would find something on them and and to
00:48:24
me that is why it looks very suspicious it it's not so much that why why would you find something on them because some
00:48:33
of those rooms were covered in in blood the the the father's bedroom was covered
00:48:37
in in matter right and I'm sure whatever shoes they were wearing had evidence on
00:48:43
them but because they were at the crime scene cops never reported that but if you just walk into rooms and you don't
00:48:50
touch anything then what are they going to find on you I just other than your shoes I do have a hard time believing
00:48:57
that they wouldn't have touched anything and I don't necessarily mean a victim um
00:49:02
again but this is these are upper class kids they're sheltered I'm talking about
00:49:06
who cares about sheltered or not sheltered I'm talking about if I walk into a room and I see a dead body
00:49:11
whether I choose to you're going to run up and hug it what no what I'm saying is
00:49:16
whe whether I choose to to investigate further and touch the body or not I probably wouldn't what I'm saying is if
00:49:21
I walked into a room and I found someone dead whether it be a family member or not there's a good chance I might have
00:49:28
to grab a wall to brace myself from falling over I might have to go down to one knee because I'm I'm in total shock
00:49:35
right but who says that they that they didn't the blood evidence says that they didn't no you just the they didn't touch
00:49:44
the evidence you know what I mean so and then the other thing well they wouldn't
00:49:47
have they didn't do it in the father's bedroom right but that could be as simple as them walking in and I mean you
00:49:54
don't have to walk into that room to see that guy's dead no I I know that I know that but what I'm saying is I I
00:50:01
find it very strange that given the description of the crime scene and how much blood there was that these guys had
00:50:08
nothing on them but they're in the house for how long or three probably 3 to four
00:50:14
minutes so right so within three 3 to four minutes they're making a call to 911 and they're waiting outside on the
00:50:20
curb right but I don't have to convince you I'm just telling you my suspicions this this seems very suspicious to me no
00:50:27
no I I get the Leaning that way but I look like I'm saying I think there's that there's a ob there's a explanation
00:50:36
for that because one the first person you're seeing is not so brutal and then the next I think you know if they're
00:50:42
telling this truth that once they got to the father's room that that was it that was the
00:50:48
Tipping Point this is awful and we need to get out of here but it but to add to your point with with them being uh you
00:50:57
say sheltered I actually think with them being sheltered that they would be even
00:51:02
more shocked and even more unable to control themselves at the at the crime scene yeah but I think that's what led
00:51:09
them to the flight mentality you know what I mean they I think it it was quickly let's get the hell out of here
00:51:17
we don't know what's going on here and if somebody is um if the Killer is still here we need to get out of here uh way
00:51:26
more so than than maybe somebody else the initial questioning of Sebastian and Atif ends at 8:30 a.m. that day when an
00:51:34
officer takes the two men to buy clothes they go remember they provided the clothes to the detectiv so they need
00:51:41
something to wear they take them to buy some clothes and they take them to eat breakfast afterwards the officer takes
00:51:48
Sebastian and Atif to the Belleview motel and the two having been up all night they're now at the hotel they
00:51:55
presumably sleep until about 2:00 p.m. that afternoon right at 2: p.m. they are picked up again by detectives and taken
00:52:03
back to the Belleview Police Department for further questioning this also during
00:52:07
this time they also conduct fingerprinting and photographing of the two young men they are let go at about
00:52:14
6:00 p.m. they are released from this uh at 6: p.m. from there the two go to a video store and Sebastian and Atif rent
00:52:22
a VCR in several movies at 9:00 p.m. Blockbuster at 900 P p.m. Sebastian calls his father to tell the tell him
00:52:33
what has happened right so a couple things here um so they're staying in a hotel that's being furnished for them by
00:52:42
um the police right so and that that makes sense you you have these kids if they're not involved they're definitely
00:52:51
victims and this kid's whole life has changed cuz his whole family has been murdered mhm but they're also our number
00:52:58
one suspect SL lead mhm that we have so we need to keep them close so you sleep all day then you get
00:53:06
questioned and then you probably don't want to go out or do anything no so a lot of people have really kind of
00:53:13
speculated that well these guys are definitely guilty they went to Blockbuster and rented some
00:53:19
movies uh I don't know look you're you're two 18-year-old boys this tragic event just happened you were
00:53:28
up all night being questioned you were then questioned again um maybe you're sitting in the hotel room hey the hotel
00:53:35
room might not have cable or maybe it has cable and there's just nothing on and you go hey let's just go rent some
00:53:42
movies so Public Access channel is all it had I'm joking I don't I don't know that but but it's just funny to me that
00:53:49
you know people will sit there and speculate oh you know they rented some movies they're they're murder MERS like
00:53:57
I don't know I think that stuff is a stretch nobody you would not know what you would do in those circumstances if
00:54:03
it you know until it happens well I agree with that 100% I do have to call into question myself because when I saw
00:54:12
this report that they had done this I found it a I didn't find it particularly like overboard weird or strange I did
00:54:21
question it a little bit but then I remembered uh way back with when we covered Casey Anthony and she had gone
00:54:27
to the video store and I'm probably I I don't know that I can't recall my reaction but my guess my gut tells me I
00:54:35
probably held her feet to the Flames for going to the video store so I I should do so I guess in this case as well um
00:54:43
yeah but she's a crazy [ __ ] I mean so uh one thing I did find strange is the N9 PM phone call from Sebastian to his
00:54:52
father this seems like a very traumatic event to somebody to anybody obviously I
00:55:00
I feel like I I really wonder the delay for that phone call um and obviously Sebastian's not here with us
00:55:09
to to explain why there was what I would call a delay maybe that maybe he felt that was his only and first opportunity
00:55:18
to actually make that phone call and it was something he had wanted to do all day long however I see that there's some
00:55:26
windows of time where that phone call could have been made and did not happen yeah
00:55:32
yeah look I think uh again there's all these little actions that people put on to people to go hey they're guilty they
00:55:40
rented movies they they watch The Lion King first of all what 18-year-old boys are going to
00:55:48
go get salad in some wine and watch The Lion King together that's how I spent every Friday night H we're going to have
00:55:56
to get another Co that's how I spent last Friday night no um here's the thing Captain though the the but but I I got
00:56:03
to harp on this phone call for a little bit because had I been with you or with any of my other friends and discovered
00:56:10
their friends let me finish thought though go ahead the reason why you know like I was saying everybody harps on
00:56:15
this or that for all we know they go right from the murder scene the crime scene to
00:56:23
questioning and theop cops might have told them since they're 18 they're on that cusp they might have said look um
00:56:31
they might have asked do you need to call your dad or you need to call your parents or maybe they didn't or maybe
00:56:39
they called them for them I mean there could be some little tiny piece of information that we don't know that's
00:56:45
why I'm not going to harp on harp on it too much I don't know if it leads either
00:56:50
way he either it was the first opportunity he felt that he could call or he knew that he had to wait a a time
00:56:59
period before he's able to call his father again though there there are clear windows of time that he would have
00:57:05
been able to call them but we have to factor in some other things we don't know what his parents schedules were
00:57:11
maybe during those windows was a time he he believed he would be unable to get a
00:57:15
hold of either his father or mother the other thing too is I guess I'm questioning why he delayed calling his
00:57:22
parents and the reason being is um what I should probably question is his relationship with his parents you know
00:57:29
I'm kind of looking at it in my shoes I'm looking at it like look I'm in my 30s if something that traumatic happened
00:57:35
to me probably the first thing I would probably want to do is call somebody that that makes me feel some kind of
00:57:42
sense of Safety and Security and that would be one of my parents the thing though is I have a good relationship
00:57:47
with my parents I I shouldn't assume that he has a good relationship with his yeah and but also we have Sebastian
00:57:54
hanging out with Atif and Atif is his best friend and how much consoling is he doing for Atif that just lost his father
00:58:03
his mother and his older sister that's true he could be tending to his his good friend now on the day after the bodies
00:58:10
were found in the early afternoon Sebastian and Atif go to Barnes & Noble bookstore at about 300 p.m. the
00:58:18
detectives locate the two men at the bookstore and they request another meeting with each of them Atif
00:58:25
participates in a 3-hour taped interview and Sebastian does an hour and a half taped interview with the investigators
00:58:33
and at no point these guys are asking for a lawyer well not only that they're cooperating they've handed over their
00:58:41
closed anytime these investigators and detectives are asking for interviews they're doing that and
00:58:48
they're allowing the interviews to be taped they're probably writing things uh writing statements as well during this
00:58:54
time they've submitted to fingerprints to other forms of test they're they're cooperating in every form and fashion
00:59:01
that you would ask of a person expect of a person and they're doing that now on July 15th in the morning the Canadian
00:59:09
consulate uh calls to obtain permission from the Belleview Police Department to return Sebastian and Atif to Sebastian's
00:59:19
parents who live in Vancouver right okay so to make this a little more clear so when Sebastian ends up talking with his
00:59:27
father his father starts going okay they're questioning these 18-year-old boys they need to come home mhm this is
00:59:36
not right so what they do like we said they're in a hotel room that is being they're being put up by the police
00:59:44
department mhm so they have their their contact even though that they had contact with the detectives and stuff
00:59:51
themselves and had their numbers they didn't call it's kind of like when you call in to work sick you
00:59:58
know you'd be like 16 and you're you're sick and you but you don't want to call in MH so you try to get your parents to
01:00:04
call in for you you know I mean it's kind of the same thing I think they didn't want to talk to the detectives I
01:00:10
think they were also nervous they're being told by Sebastian's father hey come home you
01:00:18
need to come home if they're questioning you multiple times you need to come home
01:00:23
and so they have their CS call they say hey it's fine they're allowed to go they're they're not doing
01:00:29
anything wrong so they leave and then what does the police department do they run to the press and then tell
01:00:39
the press that these two individuals they're fleeing yeah and the funny thing is when you go back and you find
01:00:46
newspaper reports uh from July of 94 it's obvious that that's the what the media believed as well that's what's
01:00:54
reported that the two fled to Canada and that's why I wanted to point out that a
01:00:59
consulate employee called bellw police asking for permission stating that you know basically they're saying is it okay
01:01:09
if these two young men leave is it okay that they return to Canada and you got to keep in mind here Sebastian that's
01:01:16
his family that's where he lives that's where he's from he was just visiting and
01:01:20
then furthermore Atif his family's been killed Sebastian's family might be the closest thing he has to family at this
01:01:27
point right but I'd also say at this point in his life you know Canada is more his home you know he's a he's a
01:01:34
citizen of Canada right I don't think he's an American citizen he had lived in Canada for the majority of his life they
01:01:41
had lived in multiple countries but but he lived in Canada for the majority of his life well and the thing that's going
01:01:47
to happen once he gets to Canada is he misses his family's funeral and that becomes a big deal yeah so we had have
01:01:54
at approximately 10:00 a.m. on July 15th 1994 the lead detective on the case in Belleview learns that the rafay funeral
01:02:02
will take place that day and then that evening Sebastian and Atif they are now at the Burns residence in Canada and
01:02:11
they're watching the evening news and that is when Atif discovers from watching the news that his family's
01:02:18
funeral was planned and took place that day without him being there well I guess
01:02:23
in the traditional Muslim uh Traditions I guess you have to be buried within a certain time period okay so it's like I
01:02:32
want to say three to four days so the argument here is that he would have known uh based on tradition but again
01:02:38
here's what's weird is we don't know we don't know this Dynamic we know that his
01:02:42
family's Muslim but we don't know how Orthodox or unorthodox they are but his his um surrounding family is the one
01:02:52
that that took care of the the funeral arrangements so he might not have known right
01:02:59
um it it's a little odd though I mean I think I could totally see Sebastian's Dad saying you guys need to come home
01:03:10
um you know does Atif come with you or not I say I say yes bring him with us but what I thought was interesting was
01:03:20
when uh Sebastian's dad was talking about this and said we're watching the evening news and we see that uh not only
01:03:26
there was a funeral but they're going hey a teeth missed the funeral what's up with that right mhm that that the mom
01:03:34
said off camera if you watch this uh this was on the confession tapes uh Netflix confession tapes it's episode
01:03:42
one and two she's off camera and she says hey it wasn't that he was just upset he literally like yelled at the TV
01:03:51
mhm and like almost like Dove towards the TV and anger well and in all fairness too I don't know Muslim
01:03:59
tradition well enough to say that you know how many days is the rule right but I just want to point out to the
01:04:05
listeners that are that are wandering so we have the bodies are discovered at 2 a.m. on July 13th the date we're talking
01:04:13
about is the funeral would have been on July 15th so 2 days later now was it tradition that it's 3 days 4 days I
01:04:21
don't know but what I'm getting at is what I'm saying is the the the protocol is that they have to be buried within
01:04:30
that time period within a certain amount of time right right right what I'm what
01:04:33
I wanted to point out here was that we're stating that there's a good chance that t would have known what the
01:04:40
tradition would be and should have had an idea of what was going to happen right if that's even if that is the case
01:04:47
if he does have that knowledge what I'm pointing out here is they left the morning of the 15th and took a bus back
01:04:55
to Vancouver I don't know how many hours it took them to get there what I'm getting at is this was only 2 days later
01:05:01
so if Atif thought that they had three or four days whatever it is maybe he thought that somebody would contact him
01:05:08
and he could just hop on a bus and go right back down and attend the services I don't I don't know what the the time
01:05:15
frame is on that but obviously he took this bus and it only took him a few hours to or took hours to get there
01:05:21
right and now a lot of this stuff they're going to say why did this happen or why did this happen and Atif and
01:05:27
Sebastian always kind of come back to this same explanation We Were Young We're Just Kids N you know there's
01:05:35
there's certain times in your life that you have to kind of Step Up and and be more adultlike I think um whether it was
01:05:42
A's fault or his family's fault that he wasn't at the funeral I think there's evidence that shows that he was uh upset
01:05:49
about it and so I would I assume that that's not his doing if why would you be upset about something that you decided
01:05:56
not to be at um so either here nor there there's no uh this is just all speculation this this is not
01:06:06
real evidence yeah and obviously the Belleview police department they are putting Atif and Sebastian through the
01:06:13
ringer here and it looks like these two well it looks like they're the main suspects uh if you follow this
01:06:20
investigation now we should point out that the detectives they did have other suspects or they should have had other
01:06:26
suspects and who were these people and how did they get this information well within just days following the murders
01:06:33
the Belleview police department they received three tips through other law enforcement agencies regarding the
01:06:40
horrific triple homicide one was from a constable with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police the
01:06:46
RCMP one from an FBI informant and one from the Intelligence Division of the Seattle Police these tips are
01:06:54
significant too Captain because they provided names addresses phone numbers and the correct murder weapon and
01:07:02
motives for the murders as well the Belleview Police Department discarded all of these leads well let's let's go
01:07:10
through these leads shall we so the first one from the RCMP a confidential informant contacted Constable galenus of
01:07:18
the RCMP this informant told the Constable that a man and we have the name of this man but the name was
01:07:26
provided from the informant to the Constable this man told the informant that he had been offered $20,000 to kill
01:07:35
an East Indian family that had previously lived in Vancouver Canada and had moved to Belleview Washington right
01:07:43
galenus decided that this information was regarding the rafay killings the informant told galenus he had heard this
01:07:52
two days before the murders were committed uh officer galenus contacted the Belleview police department and the
01:07:59
lead investigators on the rafay murders and communicated this information to them the Belleview investigators travel
01:08:07
to Vancouver so I I I guess I wasn't fair when saying that they didn't follow up on these leads because they attempted
01:08:15
to with this one they traveled to Vancouver and they knocked on the man's door uh they attempted to speak with
01:08:22
this man on two occas however the man was either not home or just simply did not answer the door uh
01:08:31
for the police department so the Belleview police they ultimately returned to the United States without
01:08:37
having made any contact with this tip with this tipster I mean he called at least he called in the evidence right
01:08:44
but maybe that's it hey this is what I heard that's all I know don't show up at my house mhm because obviously if people
01:08:52
putting out you know 20 $1,000 to on a hit on a family you think they're not going to kill this guy well the other
01:08:59
thing too is uh we have to be clear that the the offering was for $20,000 to kill
01:09:06
an East Indian family it didn't specifically name the raay family however you have to wonder is this lead
01:09:14
in fact talking about the rafes because it it's I think it's very likely if not exactly the right family who fits the
01:09:22
description that the informant provided I mean I don't know how many people fit the description of an East Indian family
01:09:29
that had previously lived in Vancouver Canada and moved to Belleview Washington right recently recently right so uh is
01:09:39
this the person who murdered the rafay family well what's the motive well the motive would be the $20,000 that you're
01:09:46
offered to no what's the why would you put the head out for why you paying $20,000 to have this family killed well
01:09:53
we haven't got to that point yet we're we're we're still discussing if this person actually carried it out and the
01:10:00
the thing is obviously no this This Confidential informant did not say who had murdered the raay family when giving
01:10:07
this information right right he just simply said somebody was offered a contract to murder a family right uh
01:10:14
it's possible this man didn't accept the contract or the money however since he talked about the contract before the
01:10:21
raay family was murdered at the very least investigators could have discovered who wanted the r family
01:10:29
killed and that's what you're getting at right who who was if you had bothered to
01:10:34
speak with this man you could at least find out who was the person offering up the money offering up the contract
01:10:40
because if this guy didn't accept it somebody else could have right or he or he or she could have found other means
01:10:46
of carrying out this these killings well there's another uh lead as well which is
01:10:52
pretty solid it comes from the FBI yeah the an FBI informant this is about 5 days after the homicides the Belleview
01:11:00
Police Department received a call from the FBI advising that one of their informants had come forward providing
01:11:07
information about the murder of the raay family the FBI inform it and again we the name has been withheld from this
01:11:14
information do you want to reenact this call no told a detective of the Belleview
01:11:20
police that a militant is Islamic faction said that Tariq RAF this is faction yeah this is A's father should
01:11:32
die because of his beliefs and teachings about the Quran the FBI informant also said that
01:11:39
several days after the homicides a member of this militant Islamic faction came to his house and was worried that
01:11:48
the FBI informant had seen a baseball bat that he and some other men had been carrying around in their car so because
01:11:57
of this the the FBI informant believed that the murder weapon used to kill the rafay family was in fact the baseball
01:12:04
bat which they didn't know at the time there was you know they had to do some uh tests to make sure that it was a
01:12:10
baseball bat that they believed was the murder weapon and But ultimately that's where their investigation took them
01:12:18
right that they find out that that they think it was in fact the baseball bat that had killed the family and this is
01:12:24
where the the bellw investigator's ears should perk up you know because this this should be considered a credible
01:12:31
lead because the informant knew the murder weapon before this information was was common knowledge before it was
01:12:38
made public and first of all it's the [ __ ] FBI mhm FBI it's not like some like Tony down the street told me
01:12:46
about this guy with a baseball bat it's the FBI you listen to them you know what I'm
01:12:53
saying well and and the informant working for the FBI provided like we said provided names addresses and phone
01:13:00
numbers of these people to the police so they could follow up on this lead instead of following up on the lead they
01:13:08
basically said that the investigators basically thought that this FBI informant was crazy right like oh this
01:13:13
this person that came forward with this information is crazy therefore we are not going to follow up on this why why
01:13:18
are they crazy um I don't know I I mean that that's how dismissive they were of the lead they don't say this person's
01:13:27
crazy because of a b and c or we went and spoke to this person face to face and have figured out that they're not a
01:13:33
credible Source right and so instead they just dismiss it and say the person's crazy and and it's not a
01:13:40
foreign faction right you didn't say foreign faction I said Islamic faction faction yeah right but isn't it like a
01:13:47
isn't that the John Benet Ramsay thing well that claims to be a foreign fact action Comm okay so but what is their
01:13:56
motive it's not just his what were they trying to kill him for um the way that it's described is that his his teachings
01:14:07
about the Quran and his beliefs about the Quan and I'll let you go into that so I I think the main thing was he was
01:14:13
an engineer he did some number figurines and realized that true East where they pray to was actually off M by like 3° or
01:14:25
something like that by a minuscule amount very small amount so and this guy was uh engineer but also did a lot of
01:14:33
stuff with architecture and so it was one of those things where you know essentially you go well now all these
01:14:39
mosque and all these places in uh Canada need to be turned you need to jiggle them a bit right we need to pick up all
01:14:46
these buildings and move them and obviously you can't do that but I think he was pretty vocal about that and again
01:14:52
I I you know murdering is stupid for one but to you know to take somebody you're
01:15:00
you're a Muslim and you got another Muslim and there's just a couple things he disagrees with you on and so you want
01:15:07
to kill him MH that makes absolutely no sense to me it makes zero sense well and
01:15:16
you know when I read this information about how dismissive they were the they being the investigators regarding this
01:15:22
lead you know what popped in my my PE brain immediately your pointed head yeah was uh was art art who we spoke to
01:15:31
regarding the mara Murray case right and he's retired US Marshal and the first thing that he told us is in any
01:15:38
investigation to work it properly you should go where the evidence takes you right or even you
01:15:46
know they didn't even follow up on this lead is what I'm getting at you know the
01:15:51
lead that gave you what the murder weapon is correct correct so even if it it just investigate it even for for some
01:16:00
point to the point where you can find out and make a correct determination if it's in fact a credible lead or not and
01:16:07
the third and final lead is when the Seattle Police Intelligence Division called the Belleview police department
01:16:14
and told them that they had information that the FAA I'm not saying that right fq R A fakra he those F bombs on the
01:16:24
show fakra I like the chakra of the fakra you're a real fakra today the it's a it's a radical militant organization
01:16:33
that they may have been involved in these homicides and this is how the US state department describes the fakra
01:16:40
it's an Islamic sect that seeks to purify Islam through violence established sometime in the early
01:16:48
1980s most cells are located in North America and the Caribbean fakra members have attacked a variety of targets that
01:16:58
they view as enemies of Islam including Muslims themselves in addition to uh not
01:17:05
following up on this lead the Belleview police department they did not question any members of the Islamic community in
01:17:14
Bellevue to find out if if Dr rafay A's father had conflicts with any Muslims in
01:17:22
the area oh well and like we said I mean let's think about this okay one you you
01:17:28
have this engineer coming out and saying hey true East might not be true East m going against you know your Holy Grail
01:17:37
the the Quran right so then you have this other informant saying hey there was this hit put out well maybe that hit
01:17:45
was put out that anybody in this extreme group right this extreme religious group that that that money goes to you
01:17:55
if you create this hit you see what I'm saying so it could be connected they could both be connected both leads well
01:18:02
not only both and here's here's one thing I question and this is one thing that I think that the the Belleview
01:18:07
Police Department messed up on is that I think when they received this information you're you're talking about
01:18:14
these are potentially huge leads all three of these are complicated leads M at that they're receiving all these
01:18:21
leads within days of each other and here's what I'm guessing went down I'm guessing that the the investigators
01:18:28
probably thought well how can any of these leads be creditable when we're receiving another lead that's so
01:18:35
complicated just like the one we just received meaning that even if one of them is true then two of them are false
01:18:41
not necessarily no and that's why you point out a good thing that two of them could be connected hell all three of
01:18:47
these could be connected and then with the F the f fak they there was another murder that took place where uh they
01:18:56
were responsible for the death uh of a family a Muslim family and that father also was an engineer and was speaking up
01:19:05
against different things of the Muslim faith so I think we should leave you with that thought that's the thought
01:19:12
that we're leaving with you with today is the possibility that not only one of these tips could be right all three of
01:19:19
them could be correct and they could be connected and I think some some of that too with
01:19:25
the Belle view Police Department with when something is that big and also let's just be frank about it this
01:19:31
happened before 9/11 and so I I believe if it happens after 9/11 maybe they take
01:19:37
these leads a little more serious but these are also leads that are they're bigger than you you would need to get
01:19:43
somebody like the FBI involved well and that's another part where they messed up
01:19:49
think about this one of the tips is coming from an informant that is working with or helping the FBI in some form
01:19:55
right so therefore if you relay that information to me and you work for the FBI that's when I'm going I got this
01:20:02
triple homicide seems pretty complicated we're getting weird complicated leads and tips coming in uh guess what Mr FBI
01:20:10
agent thank you for bringing this information to our attention however this information came from you from your
01:20:16
division we need you to step in here and and oversee this or at the very least oversee that one tip overse that one
01:20:25
lead or please contact your higher ups and have them get involved so yeah I mean there there's a lot more to get
01:20:31
into this case and uh let's do that uh tomorrow thanks to everybody for joining us in the very cold winry garage today I
01:20:48
still got my coat on C I'm freezing my fakra off I hope everybody out there stays warm and enjoy the rest of your
01:20:55
day until tomorrow be good be kind and don't [Music] [Applause] litter Angie's List is now Angie and we've
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