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foreign [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who's looking forward to Turkey and sweet potato pie
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lemon shandy this is basically beer and lemonade mingling together in a taste bud tingling Harmony Shady spot is a
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right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
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foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] Douglas started his career with the FBI in 1970. in the field he served as a
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hostage negotiator he transferred to the FBI's Behavioral Science unit or BSU for
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short in 1977 where he taught hostage negotiation and applied criminal psychology at the FBI Academy in
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Quantico Douglas later went on to create and manage the FBI's criminal profiling
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program while traveling around the country providing instruction to law enforcement agencies Douglas began
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interviewing serial killers and other violent sex offenders at various prisons he interviewed some of the most notable
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violent criminals as part of the study including David Berkowitz Ted Bundy John Wayne Gacy Charles Manson and Edmund
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Kemper he used the information gathered from these interviews he examined crime scenes and created profiles of the
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perpetrators describing their habits and attempting to predict their next move in
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cases where his work helped to capture the criminals he built strategies for interrogating and Prosecuting them as
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well Douglas first made a public name for himself with the involvement in the Atlanta child murders Douglas first made
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a public name for himself with his involvement in the Atlanta child murders case back in 1977 to 1981. he is the
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author of two of the garage's favorite true crime books mind Hunter and the cases that haunt us and he's joining us
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here in the garage today via telephone and Mr Douglas it is an honor to have you joining us once again well thank you
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first off Mr Douglas everybody wants to know will there be season three of mine hunter you certainly have the inside
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track what can you tell us will it happen and when I tell you the uh now it's like 2 months ago I got a call from
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Holt mcalleny who plays Bill tench character he stayed with me uh when he was developing his part in the show and
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but he he sounded kind of grim and was that all the actors want to return but it was a question with uh David Fincher
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the director he spent so much time so much time filming it in Pittsburgh he for each each season he spent about
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seven months there and he's such a perfectionist that the actors are working almost the entire year on the
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you know on each uh on each series what they were saying he that he's uh you know exhausted I just don't personally
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understand that neither the uh some of the actors uh why don't you get use some other directors uh some
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there were other directors involved in season one and season two of the 19 total episodes and two seasons Fincher
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did did seven of them personally did seven but when he did the series House of Cards he started it but then other
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other directors took over over for the uh for the show so I don't I mean it just
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uh everyone's you know is hoping he got tremendous ratings the reviews were were
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all you know all good but I I mean it doesn't uh for now it's not I mean he takes you know if you can
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recall season two the first episode I just get an idea there was a barbecue scene with Bill tench and he's meeting
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his neighbors we're finding out for the first time kind of what he does with the
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profiling and at Quantico and all that he started asking questions that that scene
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was repeated seven nearly 75 times 75 times before uh Fincher approved it how he wanted that scene uh to go I mean uh
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and it's and because I it made he's made he's made the Netflix a lot of money you
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know if it was if it was anyone else they say that would say okay that's fine we'll get another director but no there
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they're not doing it but I just the back of my mind I just think they will at some point yeah I mean I may be dead and
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buried but at some point I hope they'll bring it back there's so much more to tell I'm even season two the Atlanta
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child killings uh I mean that and and and you're you know you're uh people listen to your show have to
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realize that's based on the book but it's not the book uh the like the Atlanta case did not go down like that
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in fact in reality I thought it went down in the real way went down a lot more dramatic and my role in that case
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as far as coaching the the prosecution uh on how to to interrogate him when he would take the stand uh my attitude with
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toward the uh the uh the the prosecutors and experts that the FBI and the state run in there and how how uh they they
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were going to throw my ass out of there they did because I was just so critical of them uh on how they testified they
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were so technical no one could even understand what they were were saying I mean I couldn't understand what they
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were saying uh and the defense experts that they brought in talk they may have been saying stuff
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that's not correct uh their analysis but it was it was clear it was something that the jurors could follow and they
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were nodding in their heads like an agreement with with the with their experts so
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um there's so much you know so they they didn't finish that case I was thinking of season three they
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got that case I mean they got they have I think there's so many different cases the Ted Bundy case they could do Robert
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Hanson up in Alaska who hunted women down like wild animals which set them loose
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in the wilderness and uh and you have that case the you have that Buffalo 22 Caliber Killer I mean it's just there's
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the Tylenol case then cases of smaller no one really the public doesn't even know about but just very very
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interesting interesting uh you know cases and they it may not follow the book they're kind of interpreting it the
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way they want to but but it's uh it's it's better than some of the other shows that uh uh that that I've seen even like
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with Criminal Minds it was a very successful show but but Behavioral Science unit we don't when you you're in
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that unit you don't go you're not out making arrests you're not taking cases away from police you're not kicking down
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doors you know it's cerebral When You Reach when you reach the uh the unit and you're a coach you're you're coaching uh
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FBI you're coaching local law enforcement on on uh on on how to to investigate or or you know or lead them
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you know in the best direction for saying on Unknown Subject uh okay so uh what they portrayed in Mindhunters
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series was good yeah hopefully it's a five year it was a five-year Arc to the show it's supposed to be on for
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five years uh and uh then there's plenty of cases to fill up those five years so
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we will see yes when asked to give a brief description about mind Hunter when I recommend the show to friends and family
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I always say it's the more adult more intelligent real life version of Criminal Minds
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yeah I mean it's just uh it's such interesting in that kind of that kind of show today and these crime uh
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conferences around the country it just it's amazing when I haven't done any public speaking because the covet virus
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but when I've been going out the conferences 80 90 of the audience are women uh too that are really uh really
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into the this well they want to know because they too they're the victims of the of the kind of violent crimes that I
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and my colleagues have worked over the years and they're interested in to better understand the personality
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what creates these people what makes these people you know uh different than we are what what was their backgrounds
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was it predictable that they would commit the you know these types of uh types of crimes and uh and now with all
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these dating services you know meeting people and you know at locations you don't know yeah just because someone
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puts a nice picture up and gives you this Background by this little bio doesn't mean that's who the person
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really is uh my mother when my I since passed away she used to tell my sister when you meet when you meet a man
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or boy if this was years ago even a boy ask him what his relationship is with his mother and my mother was was right
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on the money there because of the people who have interviewed some of the most violent offenders there was always an
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issue on the mother's side where they were there was this abuse or neglect of some of some type uh going on with them
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uh and uh it's they loved their mother and same time that hated their mother when I interviewed Gary heidnick from
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Philadelphia who kept women in the pit like in the movie Silence of the Lambs I interviewed him Leslie Stahl with 60
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minutes just got to 60 minutes that's how long ago it was in 1991 and followed me into Pittsburgh to interview where I
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interviewed Gary heidnick and when I got around to talking about his mother he just went absolutely nuts you know and
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and crying and and uh you know and he he loved her and hated her all at the same
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time and she was very very abusive you know toward him and this is not to say that everyone is good is abused will
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turn out to be a violent you know anything but I'm just saying of the people who I've interviewed uh rarely I
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I can't think of one that you could say came from some loving nurturing kind of background we all have some type of
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dysfunction you know in their lives let's talk about the still unsolved terrorizing murders and threats from the
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unidentified serial killer who called himself the Zodiac you reviewed and profiled the Zodiac case years after the
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fact and still were able to offer up some very fascinating and intriguing analysis about the crimes and the person
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who committed them yeah the uh well with the Zodiac we never I think the unit really never got
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involved with the uh the analysis of that case we've had a lot of people come forward over the years there's been
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different suspects you know uh you know developed um when that case was going on we really
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didn't even have a behavioral science unit when we when we finally got the case uh it was it was when so-called
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zodiac was writing a communication wrote a communication to the detective who was
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assigned to the case he had a private office a private line hotline and uh so we got we were going to do an analysis
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of the communication we could call psycholinguistic analysis or this is just you're doing a profile of the
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author of the communication uh the the uh police immediately called us up and said stop them forget about it you know
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why why we figured out who wrote the communication who was it the detective wow yeah the detective wrote the
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communication himself to he's trying to because he had not had any good leads no
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leads everything just died there was nothing going on and to perpetuate the case he wrote this so-called letter from
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the uh you know the the uh the Zodiac so uh but as far as I mean it's it's a case
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if it was a case today I I think we would be successful uh when you get a case like that
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uh uh and and how I was evolving in when I was the unit Chief in the bureau and training others it's I was kind of
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de-emphasizing the profile because because the whole the idea of a profile is you're trying to generate leads
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you're trying to try to uh Peak the mind of interest of people who may know some of the uh the
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characteristics of uh that are fitting this character uh the person responsible for the crime so I began to focus in
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more on on proactive techniques and uh to to maybe get the subject uh to inject himself in the investigation or get the
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subject to to go to a particular location uh because we we may have planted something there we may have had
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a memorial service there uh and uh just give you an example I was saying I I was sent to go before
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the uh Internal Affairs they call opr Office of professional responsibility and and which is not good when you go
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before Internal Affairs and and so I went I went before a whole group and they said John you're not lying are you
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to uh to the media through the media to the public you're not lying are you I said so what do you mean are you telling
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the truth I said well I don't know I said let me give you an example I said this is the case and I told them there's
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a case in San Diego that a woman car was uh broken down on off the side of the road she determined was she she
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ran out of uh gasoline um no one knows where she is for a day or two then they find her up in outside of
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San Diego in some Foothills and she has a dog collar around her neck she's been sexually assaulted and she's been
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garotted I worked with the police I'm telling the internal affairsist I work with the police we came out with a
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series of articles I said because it was my opinion that that whoever killed her was the guy who
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picked her up to take her maybe to a gas station gas station so she thought and so we we want to put a series of
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communications out looking for lead value did anyone see anything did anyone say anything any Vehicles stop any
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description of a vehicle or a car we put that out we fled the Airways and and we
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waited a couple days and now we come out with another another we're getting very
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good uh leads thanking the public we are now getting a description of not only the vehicle but the individual who uh
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who stopped alongside of the victim's car the purpose of that was to get the subject to inject himself into the
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investigation to uh to to come up with a legitimate reason why he may have been spotted there and sure enough the guy
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injects himself into the investigation that that just so you know that I was there I offered her a ride she said she
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ran out of gas but she she said no so I went on my on my Merry way so I told Internal Affairs that was that
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was the guy we arrested him the police arrested him now if you're telling me you're telling me that my lying to the
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press or whatever well it's not exactly the truth it's not the truth but we caught this or maybe the
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police caught it by using this technique so what what and so they look at me and
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they uh they said well let's I'll just tell you something I said but we understand what you're saying but
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if if it ever gets out or anything or you you screw up man we're gonna have your head we're gonna we're gonna have
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your head and I'll be working cattle wrestling cases in Butte Montana or someplace if not fired from The Bureau
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so I started really working on on proactive kinds of things and interview any of you uh
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techniques and suggestions because because sometimes you may do a profile and it doesn't fit every characteristic
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so someone will say well this that profile they they said he would have a uh a a a college education and and this
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guy only he's a high school high school education or we may miss the age which is difficult age is difficult because
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this chronological age and behavioral age and uh and you may miss may miss that we
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miss the Arthur shawcross case up in Rochester New York we missed it by about 15 years and the reason we missed it was
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because he was incarcerated for those 15 years for a double homicide where he killed two children and then he gets out
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of prison that's unbelievable he let him out of prison he had to serve him 15 years he goes up to Rochester and he
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starts killing prostitutes up in Rochester so we got everything right uh missed the age but car but uh we staked
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out we told them to stake out if you find a body don't recover it right away but stake it out and so they so the cops
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they they get a lead there's a body below a bridge an overpass below a bridge in the country and and uh there's
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a victim down there and it's frozen over with ice and they stake it out and guess
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what police are surveillance here comes a guy just fits on the edge of the bridge eating having a drink and the
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victim is right below him and that was Arthur shawcross serial killer in Rochester New York so so it's it's it's
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it's it's I like the idea of developing you know uh usually imagination and creativity to to catch these guys and
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and kind of de-emphasize like I said de-emphasize the uh the profile sometimes you could be right on the
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money some cases forget you can't you can't do it because too many there may be too many types of people could
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perpetrate this kind of uh type of crime and rape cases we have surviving victims
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we could be pretty good uh once if we do the right kind of interview or we coach
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the we coach the police to determine what was the verbal assault was what the sexual assault was what the physical
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assault was verbal sexual physical and what was it like throughout the first counter with the victim during this
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sexual assault and afterwards verbal sexual physical and if we have that information we do a good interview we
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that kind of case we can do a very good profile and come up with because we have
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a rape type we have like about five or six rape typologies based upon if we have that kind of information where we
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can determine pretty good who the offender is in a similar fashion in regards to the Zodiac attack at Lake
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Berryessa this is the murder of Cecilia Shepard in the attempted murder of Brian
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Hartnell during the course of tying up the victims the Zodiac Killer wearing a black executioners type Hood with
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clip-on sunglasses over the eye holes disguise he claimed to be an escaped convict from
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the Montana State Prison in Deer Lodge Montana where he had killed a guard and stole a car to make a getaway now he's
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telling the young couple he just needed their vehicle and money to drive and escape to Mexico
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you had said you would have used that information to try to draw the killer out to present himself to law
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enforcement and come forward what would have been your strategy to do so yeah it would have just been to you know
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to release I just believe in in working with the media investigative reporters with the media releasing information and
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not sitting on you can sit on information for a period of a couple of you know maybe a couple of days or so
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but at some point you have to re you know release the uh you know release the information now whether or not that
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information was true or not we we you know we wouldn't uh you know we wouldn't have you know have uh known that uh
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yeah again I'd have to it's been so long since I even looked at that you know that case but uh let me tell you
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something else so it's similar uh the what he did what his technique was it was he's trying to defuse the situation
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he was trying to calm calm the victims down don't worry all I want is your vehicle same thing I interviewed Dennis
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raid of the BTK Strangler in a case that I did in the 70s and 80s and and never it never analysis never led to his
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arrest his his stupidity led to his arrest but he used that same uh technique with the Otero family when he
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killed the oteroes and and the uh the children the mother and father that plea please all I want you know I just want
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your car you know and and your money I'm not going to do anything to you and and
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and so that they allowed it was a very good modus operandi it allowed him to defuse the situation and uh uh and gain
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control of them and and uh you know and tie them up uh going back to the Zodiac it's kind of it
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kind of shows you though it's pretty sophisticated it's a pretty good ammo uh you know to use and almost
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sounds like uh it's been so long it almost sounds like a law enforcement technique Dennis Rader was a pseudo law
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enforcement you know he was a compliance officer in town he was studying Criminal
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Justice at Wichita State uh so a lot of these serial killer types do have law enforcement
00:24:26
backgrounds looking at the Golden Gate killer you know out there and uh but even others who or you ask them what uh
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what would be your favorite uh profession to be generally it's law enforcement is what they pick and some
00:24:40
of them are active or even work as security guards so but I I sometimes it's disturbing to uh
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to see how I can't think of the name you probably uh notice Nick the the case in
00:24:54
Indiana are the two little girls that were on that bridge yes the murders of Abigail Williams in Liberty German from
00:25:02
Delphi Indiana I did a brief interview on I think there's a Good Morning America I think I
00:25:09
had that other book out to kill across and they threw out that case and and they never I mean you can sit on that
00:25:17
information but when they said I had the the audio tapes the the audio tapes and
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uh you know it was like I think before we call someone like come with me follow me or something like come with me yes
00:25:28
the perpetrator said guys down the hill yeah sorry man yes and they sat on that kind of wasn't
00:25:38
it like two years or so it was it was ridiculous you don't you don't sit on on something like uh you know like that uh
00:25:46
you know for that period of time that case to me that was a solvable kind of case that is not a it's not a case where
00:25:55
some Stranger Comes roaming into a community and just by the fluke you know and this I think it was like a winter
00:26:01
day you face comes across this railroad Trestle and he confronts these girls it's like right he has there's this
00:26:09
knowledge of knowledge of the area that's his comfort zone that area there whatever that area is like I don't I
00:26:16
just don't no I know it's just rural I don't know we don't know how they were killed if you knew how they were killed
00:26:22
even uh like I said you can sit on it for a while but or but I think it would have been very soluble if I would have
00:26:31
known like with a sexually assaulted yes or no well they both sexually assaulted with are they were they
00:26:37
redressed were they on closely did he pose the bodies uh did he try to secrete the Box hide the bodies from uh from
00:26:45
from open view are they missing anything any jewelry any clothing or anything like that uh method of death uh who can
00:26:53
we can we determine who was killed first uh yeah it's a solvable it's really a solvable case but not not a year later
00:27:02
two years you know two years later I mean unless they they luck out and get DNA but it's uh yeah
00:27:12
I I just upsets me sometimes when I I see why didn't they release this information I mean I did say it with the
00:27:19
bureau too with our own their own cases I mean you gotta sit on them for a while
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but bits and pieces of information you can certainly let out to the public [Music]
00:27:29
[Applause] [Music] [Applause] thank you [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you Mr Douglas you referenced BTK Dennis
00:28:06
Rader and I was talking about the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa do you think that there's a high probability a good
00:28:13
chance that Dennis Rader learned that technique by reading about the Zodiac Killer yes yeah because I like I said he
00:28:22
was thinking he was in criminal justice in fact the initial analysis we did and was we did 179 and we were just getting
00:28:31
going really but then we did a really good one in 84 with a group of us and uh we wanted to focus we told the focus
00:28:39
that over if you have a criminal justice University nearby I'm sure enough it was
00:28:43
Wichita in retrospect he went to which is Wichita uh you know you know and uh very I mean
00:28:52
they will they follow uh they'll read books and things like that people will always ask Nick too a question like well
00:28:59
can they learn from from your books I mean it becomes like a manual and uh not not really because what because
00:29:10
you should be able to read you can see when things are done that the patterns just don't don't always fit there that
00:29:16
they the killer may do something to the victim that gives himself away it may be
00:29:21
the way the body is disposed of uh their parent killing their child and uh you know and maybe read a book you know you
00:29:31
know to okay what make sure you don't uh uh you know let somebody else find the victim don't be the one to find the
00:29:39
victims it's some case like that but in a case like that when we say when we found the victim we see that things were
00:29:47
done to the victim but the victim was buried I'm thinking of a cases I'm telling you this is buried in the back
00:29:53
of a house and the uh there's a plastic bag over the face and uh part of the body uh to protect it from really from
00:30:03
the from the elements protected from the insects and uh dirt it's something that
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uh you know that someone close to the victim would have done so we're not looking for a stranger a stranger murder
00:30:17
so so you should be able to you should be able to pick up if someone uh because is following a uh a case we
00:30:27
had we had a case of a a of a this is years ago it was Roy Hazelwood who since passed away he was real good he did a
00:30:35
lot of an area of rape and a woman uh got would get these up saying seen calls and she got a whistle and she blew the
00:30:43
whistle into the phone and uh she would be murdered and a whistle would be found
00:30:51
you know be thrown on her body also a magazine a magazine that this guy just so happened to have the killer had of a
00:31:00
woman using that technique on an obscene telephone call and these are these are these old True Detective magazines we
00:31:07
had used to have years years ago so so uh he got back you know he got he got back
00:31:13
to her uh in an indirect uh oh and not indirect a very direct way from a magazine uh and retaliated but we ended
00:31:22
up you know getting getting him as you know as well that guy you referenced that a criminal could
00:31:29
read and could study crimes and possibly read your books to help them get away with murder and avoid being
00:31:38
apprehended one thing that I found fascinating when reviewing some old video footage was a gentleman that you
00:31:46
met and spoke with Mark Byers who at one time was considered a suspect at least in the minds of the public In The West
00:31:55
Memphis Three case and I noticed in that video footage when he was being interviewed at his apartment that there
00:32:02
were several of your books on his shelves or his desk can you tell us why you believe that Mark Byers is not a
00:32:10
good suspect in the West Memphis Three case he had a book that I gave him a book after I I determined he was not a
00:32:17
suspect you know in the uh you know in the case uh Mark Byers yeah he recently he recently died
00:32:24
when he made uh that series of uh shows what was the name of the the first one the first one the HBO documentary
00:32:33
Paradise Lost the Child Murders At Robin Hood Hills he was plied with alcohol and
00:32:39
and prescription drugs he was he was scripted uh you know through you know throughout that uh the the the person
00:32:48
who uh killed those children and uh uh the method of matter of of disposal told me it was not it was not Mark Byers
00:33:02
he did not have a history really any kind of a major kind of history of assault or path of behavior it was the
00:33:11
other stepfather who was never interviewed by the police throughout the years the that
00:33:20
50 analysis that I did uh for the team that was working the case that the children uh it it showed me and my goal
00:33:31
was was the could it was it a teenage these three teenagers involved no the way that children weren't disposed of
00:33:39
they were the children didn't have their clothes on which would be a way of controlling the kids if they if they're
00:33:45
stripped down or they could have been playing out there and they could have been naked to begin with when someone
00:33:49
approached them but the way they were disposed of and the person uh stuck a stick in the clothing and and and poked
00:33:57
it down under the water that is pretty fairly criminally uh you know sophisticated uh the the children died
00:34:05
of combination of drowning and blunt force uh trauma uh there were people early on in the investigation said they
00:34:13
were teeth marks they were human teeth marks on the body I turned out it was animal predation uh you know you can you
00:34:21
probably know that uh you know now but getting back to buyers I spent hours and hours I mean I spent uh uh with with all
00:34:30
the victims and my goal after I determine who was who was not responsible that this is a
00:34:38
non-solved case they they meaning the investigative team Peter Jackson the director who was funding this these
00:34:47
experts here was to talk to the parents and I got to talk to all the parents except the more victim yeah they had
00:34:54
since divorced and uh I got the mother on the phone and and uh I just could not uh even even have opportunity to speak
00:35:03
with her I did get to speak to the other victims uh the other victims families and at first they wanted to throw me
00:35:10
out of their homes but once I sat and explained to them how different things what happened to their children that
00:35:18
that this was not a youthful type of a crime at all and it was then again the person who they came up with as a
00:35:28
suspect who's who was the uh the other father The Stepfather who was never interviewed do you remember the name
00:35:33
Nick Terry Hobbs yeah Terry Hobbs uh I got to interview I did interview him he did certainly
00:35:40
have the history history of of uh of violence uh they found a hair which was interesting but
00:35:49
it was uh human hair on a one of the uh in a ligature of the shoelaces uh that was
00:35:59
used to tie one of the victims of hair uh those mitochondrial DNA was found on the hair and also on a branch hair that
00:36:08
was mitochondrial linked to you know linked back to him but the case the case isn't going anywhere because
00:36:16
the if they're not if they're not working the investigation uh at all they had me speak to the district attorney uh
00:36:23
down there and and uh after uh we came out with uh uh you know our show Peter Jackson produced
00:36:34
and um it was called the west of Memphis uh and uh the the father uh uh I'm trying to
00:36:45
think about what the I'm trying to think of the uh that's the name of the show that we we
00:36:51
did it did but anyway let me talk to them yeah I can't yeah but it doesn't matter I suppose I did speak to to the
00:36:58
district attorney and district attorney um he saw the show he's kind of nift uh about our our take on it and he says and
00:37:07
he said I don't he told me I don't know I I don't know if if they uh did it or not and I said I do know they didn't do
00:37:15
it they didn't do it I explained to him the crime scene and and uh the type of person that would have perpetrate this
00:37:21
these crimes it's not a useful type of an offender and he tells me though he says well the timing isn't very good the
00:37:27
timing and I didn't know what he known I thought maybe timing because he just released them from prison but it turned
00:37:33
out like 30 days later I find out the timing isn't any good because he's running for political office down there
00:37:38
and that's why the timing wasn't any good but no one is to this day I mean they didn't bring in like the Arkansas
00:37:44
Arkansas State Police and they're a very good police agency the bureau really never
00:37:49
got involved you know in the investigation uh you know either they were hell-bent on making this a a
00:37:56
satanic type of murder that was a big thing in that period of time you had people
00:38:01
like Geraldo Rivera on television saying that there's 50 000 children are being abducted yearly and it's shown a satanic
00:38:08
connection even Oprah Winfrey had a special on her show cops were being trained look for certain graffiti
00:38:13
indicating Satanism and and uh yeah and so they were hell-bent on making down a satanic crime and you have Damien Echols
00:38:22
and wearing black and and uh they had blinders on and so they they made a case using uh initially Jesse Miss Kelly the
00:38:30
so-called so-called confession uh that he you know that he gave but it's a shame it was a shame uh of the wrongful
00:38:38
conviction how lives yeah were pretty much pretty much destroyed and uh and so in one book I did I did a book
00:38:47
law and disorder that includes that case includes the uh jonbeni Ramsey case included Amanda Knox case all cases I
00:38:57
was involved with uh I did that a couple of two years three years ago maybe [Music]
00:39:16
thank you guys so much for joining us here in the garage to join us again tomorrow if you're not following us on
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00:39:40
be good be kind and don't litter [Music] thank you foreign