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GameChanger [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thank you
00:01:44
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that would like to inform you that big Tech is
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spying on you right now he is the captain that's why when I get out of the shower I do one extra shake and one
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extra wink it's good to see you and it's good to be SC thanks for listening thanks for telling a
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[Music] friends this week we are very proud and happy to be featuring cheer team ale by
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caps out of five I love the untapped description here cuz it is spoton this IPA is an instant class
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the very fruity and may we say juicy hop character is unrelentingly delicious and
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this week's beer is brought To Us by these awesome characters right here first up we have Laura C from Texas and
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garage check out off the Record on Stitcher premium and that is enough of the business all right
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everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime
00:04:31
[Music] [Music] on the evening of March 6th 1962 29-year-old taxi driver dri Neville
00:05:00
Knight was picking up fairs in Sydney's West Side Neville was retired from the Navy
00:05:07
where he was a morse code expert after the Navy he thought he would drive a cab making some money
00:05:13
while driving around it would be like he was his own boss recently he had been wanting to get
00:05:20
out of the cab business he was married and had a three-year-old daughter at home but daytime jobs were hard to come
00:05:28
by so he fig Ed with bills to pay and Ms to feed he would just keep driving the cab until he found something
00:05:37
better it was late in the evening when he picked up a boy in more Bank as usual the boy opened the back
00:05:45
door of the cab and sat down behind Knight Knight thought the boy to be about 16 years old and he was happy to
00:05:52
take him wherever he needed to go for a fee of course the boy gave instructions on
00:06:00
where he needed to go but other than this he said very little they got just about to where they
00:06:07
were heading when they ran into some trouble Knight drove to Fairfield West as instructed but once there the boy was
00:06:16
unsure of the exact location he was looking for a house but it was a place he had only been one time
00:06:24
before and he was having some trouble remembering just where the house was but he said I'll know it when I see
00:06:33
it Knight didn't care he had a whole shift to finish and better to be driving around with someone in the car running
00:06:41
up the meter they continued driving up and down streets looking for the house Knight was
00:06:50
driving just under 40 mph when he heard a loud explosion reacting to the deafening
00:06:57
noise Knight tried to slam on the brakes but the car continued he then tried to push in the
00:07:04
clutch but he could not feel nor move his leg he quickly grabbed the handbrake and
00:07:11
pulled the car screeched swerved and then came to a stop the boy in the back seat jumped up
00:07:21
and hopped out of the vehicle he then opened the front door to the cab Neville Knight was still very
00:07:28
unsure of what had just happened he was in pain he couldn't seem to move either of his
00:07:35
legs thank God he was not alone and now I've got to tell this boy to go and get some help he
00:07:44
thought now with the front door open the boy looked inside he said nothing he stared at Neville slowly studying him
00:07:53
with his eyes and then just like that the boy ran off into the darkness the [Music]
00:08:17
dark many people travel to Australia for many many different reasons it's a popular destination for outdoor
00:08:25
enthusiasts people go there for all kinds of things hiking camping and just traveling the land by different means of
00:08:32
travel now like in the US at one time hitchhiking was commonplace in fact it was even encouraged and enjoyed
00:08:40
especially by the younger Travelers low on funds it was a cheap and adventurous way to get from place to place
00:08:48
hitchhiking in Australia for the most part was considered to be safe this being decades ago if you were traveling
00:08:54
in pairs or in a group now let's start off on January 25th 1990 we have a young man here named Paul onions he's 24 years
00:09:05
old now he's from the UK but he is in Australia on holiday he had been there for about a month traveling seeing the
00:09:12
SES and getting around by several means of travel but on this day he was looking
00:09:17
to Hitch aide was looking to hitchhike so he's standing out at the edge of the Hume Highway some sections of this are
00:09:26
now known as the Hume freeway or Hume Motorway this is one of Australia's major Inter City National highways
00:09:34
spanning over 500 miles and it runs between the major cities of Melbourne and Sydney now Paul is about a mile or
00:09:42
so from the Bango State Forest he's got his thumb in the air but he's having no luck really so far with any offer for a
00:09:52
ride so he starts walking South eventually he decides to take a break stopping off off to grab a drink and a
00:10:00
snack it is here that a man approaches Paul the man is muscular with a dark mustache and he introduces himself as
00:10:09
Bill they get to talking and eventually Bill offers Paul a lift Paul told Bill where he was hoping to get to and Bill
00:10:17
agreed that he would drive him over 200 kilomet Paul and Bill climbed into Bill's silver four-wheel drive and they
00:10:25
drove off as they were driving South the normal convers ation took place now this
00:10:31
drive could be a long one it's probably going to be maybe a 3-hour drive at most
00:10:37
so after about an hour according to Paul Bill started getting weird he was looking around a lot as he drove his
00:10:47
behavior voice and words were becoming increasingly aggressive and angry he was spouting out racial slurs left and right
00:10:56
this of course is making Paul very very very uneasy he doesn't know this man and
00:11:02
this man is behaving strangely Bill stops the vehicle he's telling Paul that he's got to retrieve
00:11:10
some cassette tapes from the trunk of the vehicle so that they can listen to them now Paul is already on edge right
00:11:17
and he looks over and he sees cassettes inside the vehicle so the reasoning for stopping is not making a lot of sense to
00:11:25
Paul this is enough to make Paul seriously question what this man named Bill could be up
00:11:32
to after Bill got out of the vehicle Paul did as well this apparently upsets Bill basically with a growl he tells
00:11:42
Paul to get back in the vehicle Paul decides he better play along Bill reaches under the seat and he pulls out
00:11:50
a revolver sticking the nose of the gun in Paul's Face Paul says he could see the shiny bullets in the cylinder
00:12:00
Bill tells him that this is a robbery then he produces some rope Paul is terrified he jumps out of the vehicle he
00:12:09
runs as fast as he could right into uncoming traffic bill is now yelling at Paul and then he starts pulling the
00:12:18
trigger the cars swerve to avoid hitting Paul but they just keep on driving finally Paul is able to flag down a van
00:12:27
he jumps in from the sliding side door Paul is screaming to the people inside he's got a gun he's got a gun the driver
00:12:38
sees the man with the gun the man appears to be going back to his vehicle the driver is Joanne Barry and with her
00:12:46
is her sister and five kids Joanne is desperate to get away and she does not want the man with the gun following her
00:12:55
especially with the van full of kids Joanne goes in reverse makes a U-turn and now facing the opposite direction
00:13:03
she slams the pedal to the floor and speeds off she drives Paul to a police station there he reports the attack he
00:13:12
gives a description of the man and tells them the man that he knows only as Bill
00:13:17
said that he is a road worker he also provides a description of the gun and the vehicle now Paul he was like super
00:13:25
panicked right when fleeing this vehicle so of course he left behind everything that he brought with him he leaves
00:13:32
behind his backpack this held everything that Paul was traveling with including his passport so not only does he provide
00:13:39
them a description of the man the gun the vehicle and some of the things that this man Bill told him he also leaves
00:13:47
them a good description of the items he left behind in Bill's vehicle now police
00:13:53
did send out the description of the man and the vehicle they were looking for this man who attempted to commit an
00:14:00
armed robbery that's the way this was reported nothing came of the search for the Armed robber they never found the
00:14:08
suspect never made an arrest by June of 1992 the missing person's unit was quite
00:14:14
busy as missing persons cases they were piling up at a faster Pace than normal the Sydney Morning heral ran several
00:14:22
articles regarding this one by Christian Rayo this was particularly interesting it says police were optimistic in one of
00:14:32
the cases this was of two missing women Caroline Jane Clark and Joanne lesie Walters both 22 years old were visiting
00:14:41
Australia and they were there on a working holiday police were optimistic that they would find the women alive and
00:14:49
well this is because they received over 100 calls from people all over the place
00:14:55
saying they have seen the two English women the women were missing sometime it's
00:15:02
believed to be like April of 1992 a large number of calls were coming in from the Northern Territory and from
00:15:11
Darwin police were hoping to confirm the sightings of these women they were able
00:15:17
to get a copy of what is believed to be Caroline's last letter two missing women
00:15:24
were traveling Australia and securing fruit picking jobs along their way the letter was written from Queenstown
00:15:33
postmarked April 8th this letter stated that they intended to go to Sydney and then to canura I'm know that I did not
00:15:41
say that right there Captain this was for a fruit picking job that was supposed to last 4 weeks then they would
00:15:50
continue on to Air's Rock So police were optimistic about the sightings however the problem here is none of the ladies
00:15:58
have contacted family or touched their bank accounts since April the article that I read was from late June so about
00:16:07
2 months or so that it's believed that they possibly have been missing police figured out that Clark and Walters
00:16:13
checked out of a king's cross Backpackers hostel this too in April and this is the last confirmed sighting of
00:16:22
the two women what they were looking into is if there is any possibility that this could be connected to the December
00:16:30
disappearance of a young couple from Germany that young couple just like the two English women their last known
00:16:37
whereabouts was a king's cross Backpacker hostel the missing German couple is Gabor nbow 21 years old and
00:16:45
Ana haved age 20 so by this point in our story Captain we have four missing persons four that have made the papers
00:16:56
anyway and this is June of 19 1992 now on Saturday September 19th 1992 two men found a body in the Blango State
00:17:07
Forest this was around 4:15 in the afternoon this is in one of the more dense forest areas of the State Forest
00:17:17
the men were out on an orientering exercise practicing their skills near the Long Acre Fire trail the body was
00:17:25
well hid in fact they only found it because they were investigating a terrible smell that they
00:17:31
thought could be coming from a kangaroo carcass which of course was not the case
00:17:38
the body was wedged under a rock ledge and partially covered with Shrubbery the next day police working
00:17:45
the scene found a second body just about 40 M from the first the second body was
00:17:51
hidden by bushes and was badly decomposed detectives on the scene told reporters that although they could not
00:17:58
immediately name the cause of death or identify either victim they said they were investigating a double
00:18:06
homicide Now using dental records they were able to determine the identity of both of the victims investigators
00:18:14
learned that their victims are Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters both missing since late April of
00:18:22
1992 Caroline Clark's head and face were wrapped and covered with a maroon sweatshirt she had been shot 10 times
00:18:29
through the top of her head she was stabbed twice in the back and stabbed once in the chest I believe this was an
00:18:36
attempted single stab to the heart Joanne Walters was found gagged using pieces of her shirt she had been cut and
00:18:45
stabbed many times with one of these stab WS severing her spine which would have left her paralyzed during her fight
00:18:53
in an attempt to flee from her attacker or attackers now reports vary on the level of Mutilation here with stabs
00:19:06
reported as high as over 30 times and as little as 20 times either way what we're
00:19:11
looking at here is a frenzied knife attack that killed her and one of the things that I find extremely interesting
00:19:18
here is the statements by the investigators right very early on in this investigation they are saying that
00:19:27
they would be expecting to find more bodies all right we have two victims we already have two victims so I can see
00:19:35
where they're stating hey In This Very dense forest location in a place where bodies would be extremely hard to find
00:19:43
and locate you know these bodies aren't just lying on the the trail there they're off well off of the trail and
00:19:51
they're concealed almost buried under brush even the descriptions in some cas cases describe the bodies as that as
00:20:00
being buried and then the other one like stuffed behind bushes and things like that the interesting thing here too is
00:20:08
one they are seeing things at this crime scene at the murder scene where they it's very obvious to them that they are
00:20:17
looking for potentially more bodies the other thing you got to wonder too we describe the injuries and what could be
00:20:24
the cause of death in both cases there's a lot of Overkill involved in each of these attacks so maybe that
00:20:32
as well is leading them to making the statement the thing here as well we have the transient lifestyle that the two
00:20:40
victims were living at the time of their disappearance this also certainly drastically increases the chances that
00:20:46
we might be looking at a stranger on Stranger murder or strangers on Strangers attack and
00:20:53
murder the Bango Forest let's talk about this location where these two two victim's bodies were found this is an
00:21:00
important aspect to this crime and to this case and it will also help to steer the direction and the focus of their
00:21:08
investigation the state forest is in New South Wales and located 3 km west of the
00:21:14
Hume Highway this is a popular Park open to the public and it features Trails for
00:21:21
hiking dirt bikes quads there are creek crossings and plenty of camping areas the state forest is quite big and it
00:21:31
looks like the most populous trees there are pine I was able to find actually the
00:21:38
you know how big of a location this is however the trying to figure out how to transfer that into our system gets a
00:21:48
little complicated for me remember didn't go to school for math that was a little bit of computer that I was
00:21:54
studying now on October 5th 199 93 again we are in the Bango State Forest and again we are near the long fire acre
00:22:03
Trail a man he is out collecting firewood he found another body this discovery led to another Finding lying
00:22:13
just 20 M away was an additional body later it was determined that they located the bodies of Deborah Everest
00:22:21
and James Gibson these two were missing for about 4 years see in late 198 89 the
00:22:29
two took off together on a backpacking Adventure they were both just 19 years old at the time both were recently
00:22:36
accepted into college so this was supposed to be one of those last Big Adventures before they get serious about
00:22:42
going to school before leaving James told his mother that they intended to hitchhike their way around to which she
00:22:50
tried to talk him out of she was warning him that hitchhiking was very dangerous
00:22:55
Deborah last made contact with her parents parents calling home on December 28th there was an earthquake that day
00:23:04
and she called home to tell them that she and James were all right now two days later the young couple left a
00:23:11
communal house in Su Hills the night before they were telling others there that they intended to hitchhike their
00:23:18
way down south 3 months later James Gibson's red backpack was found on the roadside and Deborah's camera was found
00:23:28
nearby but no one knew what happened to the young couple for all of that time until these bodies were found a strange
00:23:37
thing here Captain those two items James's backpack and the camera after the bodies were found we would learn
00:23:45
that the backpack and the camera were nowhere near the location of the bodies this is in fact many many miles apart
00:23:53
apparently the killer or Killers drove these items extremely far away before tossing them on the side of the
00:24:01
road Deborah was found hogtied her skull and jaw were fractured it does not seem
00:24:09
like early on that law enforcement were certain of the cause of this fracture but it looks like the cause of death was
00:24:16
the stab wounds to her head the Sydney Morning heral reported James was stabbed multiple times including one through the
00:24:24
spinal cord also stab wounds that punctured his lungs and as the Herold put it in both cases extreme force had
00:24:33
been used and it seemed that the victims had not been able to defend themselves now we already mentioned
00:24:41
police saying that they were expecting to find more bodies well now they're pretty clear about this statement
00:24:49
publicly they start stating that the murders were connected believed to be connected and that they were searching
00:24:55
for a serial killer or [Music] Killers this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays
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[Music] that all right we are back he is back I am back before we get cranked up too
00:27:03
much here Captain I do want to thank a big thank you to our friend wait hold on I'm already cranked UNC crank yourself
00:27:12
uh big thank you to Cairo he's the uh B shirt guy that we met a couple weeks ago
00:27:18
oh yeah yeah thank you Cairo for the awesome beers all right Captain we have still plenty to get to here because on
00:27:28
November 1st 1993 we're now in a location that's about 5 km away from where the bodies of
00:27:35
Deborah and James were found the body of Simone schmidle was found in this location Simone was 21 years old from a
00:27:45
town near Munich she was visiting Australia and traveling around now on January 20th
00:27:52
1991 she was traveling solo and she told some friends she planned to catch a train to Liverpool and then hitchhike
00:28:00
her way down the Hume Highway after this she has never seen alive again now some of her items were
00:28:08
found 4 months after her disappearance Simone had multiple stab wounds and was stabbed twice through her spine 3 days
00:28:17
later on November 4th 1993 the bodies of Gabor nanau and Ana habid were found just about one
00:28:27
kilometer east of where Simone's body was located both were missing since Christmas of
00:28:34
1991 this is the missing German couple that we discussed earlier Gabor was double gagged one stuffed in his mouth
00:28:41
and one tied around his head he had been strangled and looking through all this I
00:28:46
could not figure out if it was thought to be manual or leature strangulation but the reports are that the hyoid bone
00:28:53
was broken he was also shot in the head six times Anna was found under a pile of logs
00:29:01
branches and debris she was faed down and naked from the waist down she had been decapitated from what was
00:29:08
determined to be a single Blow from a heavy bladed object such as a sword or a machete we are now at seven bodies found
00:29:18
total in three of the cases we have two persons traveling together only one case
00:29:24
out of the four do we have someone traveling solo what is common throughout we have witnesses or people who saw or
00:29:33
spoke to the victims shortly before they went missing stating that the victims were believed to be hitchhiking their
00:29:39
way around at some of the sites where the bodies were found not too far from where
00:29:46
the bodies themselves were located we have evidence that the killer spent some time hanging out in the area this could
00:29:53
be days leading up to the killings meaning in separate visit entirely or immediately after the killings what they
00:30:02
found was evidence of a campfire near the attack Plus at one of the body dump locations they found like a makeshift
00:30:10
firing range where the shooter shot up trees bottles and cans now at this makeshift Shooting Gallery they found
00:30:19
tons of shell casings spent bullets and so on they found two different calibers at one site now they were able to
00:30:28
determine from the debris left behind by the shooter that all of this stuff had been
00:30:33
there about the same amount of time this meaning that the two guns were fired the
00:30:38
same day or night not not a situation where one target you know once target shooting and then returns at a later
00:30:46
date with a different gun for more target practice right it looked to the detectiv as though the offender had a
00:30:54
silencer on the 22 which this also makes you believe that one we have multiple cases where there's two victims and
00:31:04
there's different wounds so law enforcement might think okay well maybe we have more than one killer and now we
00:31:11
have a situation where we have somebody shooting off guns but there's two calibers that would also lead to the
00:31:18
idea that maybe that there's more than one individual yeah and sorry I think I jumped ahead here in my notes captain
00:31:27
they were able to determine that one of the calibers that was used at this uh Shooting Gallery let's say was a 22 and
00:31:35
they could tell by markings on the bullets that the a silencer was being used with the 22 well and also with a
00:31:45
gun being involved especially in the three cases of the couples that would also lead one to believe that maybe
00:31:52
there was only one attacker because you could control two individuals with a gun
00:31:59
yeah let's we'll get into that in just one second here but before we do so I want to point out that you know we have
00:32:06
law enforcement very early on with the statement of we're expecting to find more bodies and then when they
00:32:14
do in fact find two more bodies their next statement is we think we're looking for a Serial offender or serial killers
00:32:22
here what is confirmed at some point after seven bodies are found we learn that the there are matching 22
00:32:32
caliber bullets shell casings and cartridge boxes that were found at multiple crime
00:32:39
scenes so not only were they suspicious of this and thinking that they were looking for a serial killer or Killers
00:32:47
now they have confirmation of evidence left behind that these attacks and murders are in fact connected well at
00:32:54
least two of the cases we have a uh spinal cord being severed that is not a very typical injury that you see and
00:33:04
murders yes and you know we've talked about this before with the Lindsay boc case it's for me personally it's awfully
00:33:13
difficult to determine if that is in fact deliberate or if in a frenzied attack that maybe it just it's just
00:33:22
happened stance that it occurred I feel like in Lindsay's case it could have just occurred like I I
00:33:29
lean more that way but with some of these it it appears to be much more deliberate yeah I it's it's strange to
00:33:37
me because the amount of wounds you know or amount of times that somebody shot or
00:33:43
stabbed to me there's a rage element here but then there's a calculation element in here as well welcome to the
00:33:53
segment of armchair styling and profiling with the captain and Nick um but I also think there's a element of
00:34:02
calculation here because we see in again multiple cases where the spinal cord is
00:34:08
severed but you also have these this time and this could be happen stance as well but punctured lungs it's almost
00:34:15
like this person is creating a scenario where they they want the person to suffer through this
00:34:25
these are kind of suffer wounds if that makes any sense well and the need to like incapacitate them and make it so
00:34:33
that they are unable to flee or to fight back during the course of whatever left
00:34:39
what is what is left of the attack right and then then you also wonder you sever one person's spinal
00:34:48
cord they can't move they're paralyzed now you can do whatever you want to the other victim and almost make the person
00:34:56
like like I said suffer in pain but also suffer through the attack of the other individual okay so let's go through the
00:35:04
psychological profile of the killer or Killers now there were several profiles actually worked up for these cases
00:35:13
worked up by psychiatrist and criminologist what I did here Captain to save us some time is I try to combo them
00:35:23
for one master profile so first first as you were pointing out it was tricky right they they are uncertain if they
00:35:33
should be looking for one or two killers police were having trouble with this and
00:35:38
mainly for reasons that you already pointed out but just to simplify they were having trouble with how just one
00:35:45
person could lure in most cases two victims into the forest control them and murder both of them plus we have three
00:35:55
cases where we have have two victims in those cases and these incidents one victim is more mutilated than the other
00:36:03
so could it in fact be two killers this was strongly argued in at least two of the profiles that were put forward and
00:36:11
in both of these they cited that brothers would be more likely to be the the team of offenders
00:36:20
here often when we have two offenders there is a more dominant personality of one offender and then a more follower
00:36:27
type for the other right the profiles that pushed the two offender Theory cited this as the likely cause for the
00:36:36
differing levels of Mutilation between the victims the other difficult thing here
00:36:43
is the crime scenes where it appears that two victims are controlled attacked killed and partially buried or concealed
00:36:50
in separate locations yeah be it close together but still separate so what they're getting at here Captain is that
00:36:57
to offenders this is certainly possible right it's the idea of okay we we now attacked our victims all right move your
00:37:08
victim to a spot where they couldn't be found and so if they're separated on some level then you would then the
00:37:15
bodies would be separated more once you go to conceal them mhm where if you have
00:37:20
one killer he attacks his victims he he drags one of the victims into a uh secluded spot where he thinks this makes
00:37:28
the most sense and then you drag the next victim to the same spot yeah and I think that the reason why they're
00:37:33
pointing out this this scenario here is that you likely have two offenders because they seem to be choosing two
00:37:42
victims and then the thought on top of that is why are we finding one victim here and then one here when we know that
00:37:48
they were once together is that possibly that the offender wanted privacy from the other
00:37:55
offender with the victim right so a lot of a lot of uh analysis going on here with these crime scenes yeah and some
00:38:03
pretty detailed analysis too I don't know if I buy this idea that based off what evidence we have that you can say
00:38:11
well these we think they're Brothers if the if there's two killers you know the idea that you're
00:38:17
one stating pretty early on we have a serial killer and we're going to find more bodies and then you go okay not
00:38:24
only do we have a serial killer but we have a a d serial killer team and their brothers
00:38:30
yeah we we actually have two profiles that were put forward that that shared that thought M um not outwardly saying
00:38:37
that they have to be brothers but that was something that they were leaning towards in their profiles I just wish I
00:38:44
knew if there was something more if they had some more evidence uh whether that was some kind
00:38:52
of I don't know fingerprint or or something that would lead them to believe that there would be they would
00:38:59
be related I don't think that it was evidence that was found as far as like fingerprints or or anything of that
00:39:06
nature what they're pointing out here is in cases that they have seen in the past
00:39:10
look it is it is very rare and I know that everybody's going to think of three or four or five cases immediately as
00:39:17
soon as I say this but it is rare for there to be a serial killer team it's it's often they work alone right this is
00:39:25
not Batman Robin yeah and then even more rare than that would for it to be Rel relation that are working together I
00:39:34
can't name one so they don't have there there were some cousins in Florida um of
00:39:41
course they're in Florida there were actually brothers in Ohio back in the 70s that I think were were the uh they
00:39:47
were looking for the 22 Caliber Killer I believe was the the moniker that was applied to those cases and it turned out
00:39:53
to be two offenders and they were brothers um you wonder though so it does happen
00:40:00
yeah but you you said there was a 22 caliber in this case as well yeah you wonder if it's just you know they're
00:40:06
doing some research and going okay well in Ohio they were looking for killers and it happened to be brothers you know
00:40:12
which I mean first of all you just don't trust brothers from Ohio that's number one
00:40:18
rule so the the reason why I think that they're coming up with this and it's difficult because it is as you pointed
00:40:24
out such a small sample size to to come up with this evidence they're looking for similarities between solved
00:40:32
cases and what they think that they're looking at and I think where they go to the point of saying that the offenders
00:40:39
might be brothers or related I I think I might have taking it a step too far right maybe one of the profiles just
00:40:45
said some relation but they're saying that they've seen in the past that the victims are
00:40:52
separated for the purpose of privacy and they usually see this when there is a relation between the two offenders MH
00:41:00
where if the two offenders are more just friends or in on this this thing together sick hobby together that they
00:41:10
actually feed off of each other more so than what brothers or U related offenders would so two offenders this is
00:41:19
certainly a possibility but let's go through some other stuff that we know right we have evidence
00:41:26
regarding the Paul onions situation that attack he was picked up by one man not two and when the man using the name Bill
00:41:37
tried to kill him he shot at him so now when creating this profile to be completely fair to all that were putting
00:41:47
these profiles forward at this time the experts there were not armed with the information that this Paul onions attack
00:41:54
May in fact be connected right so looking at this information that we know Captain we now can add crimes where we
00:42:02
know that a gun was used and we know that from what we found with our dead victims but we also know that with Paul
00:42:09
onion situation adding the use of the gun to the equation means a signal killer may possibly been able to control
00:42:17
more than one victim at a time so starting there are we looking for one or two let's let's go to that maybe we are
00:42:24
looking for just one offender because the other profiles set out for one offender so this one offender would be
00:42:31
somebody who owns and is very comfortable around guns this man would be average living an ordinary life given
00:42:40
the physical nature of his crimes he would be fit and possibly athletic expect him to be fairly intelligent he
00:42:48
is a loner but he is outwardly sociable a talker he lives on the outskirts of a city or in a semi rural area right he is
00:42:58
employed in a semiskilled job probably works outside he has a history of aggression
00:43:05
against Authority he likely has a record of some kind police record they mean and
00:43:11
may view himself as some type of Outlaw they also struggle to come up with the offender's possible age in these
00:43:19
profiles this as we have pointed out several times in many other cases this is one of the hardest details to
00:43:26
estimate but again we have a possible eyewitness so if we go back to the story of Paul onions the the Survivor right if
00:43:35
he was in fact attacked by the same man we have a general idea based off of his description of the man's age and so for
00:43:42
the single offender profiles they put the man's age as being in his 30s or 40s he's a man they say that fits into
00:43:53
his surroundings he could be a coworker neighbor or a friend meaning kind of like the deli situation he's hiding in
00:44:00
plain sight mhm he's probably married or in a stable relationship I like how they
00:44:06
throw this little thing in here too even though she may not know it to him the relationship may be
00:44:15
unsatisfactory uh see if I was a profiler I'd throw in some weird stuff just like I don't know why you had to
00:44:21
point out that he had a criminal record cuz I don't think anybody was thinking he has a world record for long jump or
00:44:27
anything but you mean me clarifying that it's a criminal record but I think if I
00:44:32
was profiling I'd throw in like one or two things that I knew weren't true but also didn't matter that people would
00:44:39
just read over and be like he he also likes peanut butter and jelly sandwiches you know like some random fact some of
00:44:47
this next stuff to me seems a little vague and I and I'm I maybe I'll just get into it as we go through it to not
00:44:55
to not to confuse anybody here but so they say he gets a sexual and likely an emotional satisfaction from controlling
00:45:03
and killing his victims but ultimately he kills for pleasure for the thrill simply because he enjoys it now although
00:45:12
he may not have had intercourse with the victims he got his kicks by expressing his bizarre deviations through sadistic
00:45:20
aggression mutilation and finally their execution so yeah and there's something you know he could go back we've see this
00:45:27
from time to time where they're not actually sexually assaulting the victims but then they're growing home and uh
00:45:34
thinking about it and playing you know long games of flicky flicky yeah and I I mean I totally get what they're saying
00:45:40
here there is some suspicion that you know I and I know that they're saying in these profiles that the crimes are
00:45:47
sexual in nature whether or not he's raping or sexually assaulting the victims there does seem to
00:45:54
be some evidence at these crime scenes that there was at least some fondling or or something going on during the course
00:46:04
of these attacks and again it's one of those things that you also then question I think if you're taking two
00:46:10
victims and especially when you have a female and male combo that it'd be less likely that it'd be for sexual reasons
00:46:21
um because if it was purely you know sexual reasons then why wouldn't you just take a victim that was you know
00:46:30
that the single type victim that you're looking for you know if you're does that
00:46:35
make sense oh 100% uh I think what what we might be looking at here though Captain
00:46:41
is and I and I hate to use some of these terms but but it only makes sense I think it's the you know where he is
00:46:49
hunting plays into a factor of that right so mhm it it whether or not it be two offenders are one we have a
00:46:58
situation where as you said we got couples um at least in two of the cases we have a couple MH and yes it would be
00:47:08
a lot easier for a single offender and two offenders to commit these crimes against one person the problem is I
00:47:17
think regarding this specific situation we noted at the start of this episode that hitchhiking was considered
00:47:26
to be somewhat safe but we pointed out that that is considered to be safe when you're traveling as as a group or with
00:47:36
another person right I mean you see this a lot there's a lot of Americans that go
00:47:40
over to Europe right after high school or or sometime during college to go backpacking uh through Europe and and
00:47:49
you also see this in Australia as well so having that as a part of your culture and also a part of your economy this
00:47:59
also leads towards well this these are also easier prey because one they're looking for rides MH they're they're
00:48:09
they're willing to get into the vehicle well there're yeah cuz there if in fact that's how he's picking them up well and
00:48:14
if you ever stayed at like a youth hostel or any you know hostel is you know you might be in a room with four
00:48:20
other strangers you're going to fall asleep in a room with you know four other strangers or however many
00:48:26
strangers are in that room um you know unless you want to pay for like you know so you're separated but most people
00:48:32
don't and so you're already in a situation where you're going let's let's see the world and let's explore this
00:48:38
country and and we have to be trusting of all these strangers that we meet along our journey um so it's really a
00:48:48
it's really a perfect scenarios to um to just kind of sit there and pick and choose who you want to pick up well and
00:48:57
but but what I mean by this is it not more so that he's doing it out of necessity rather than as a preference
00:49:06
okay so like oh right right right because well first of all somebody's going to be it's more likely if
00:49:12
somebody's traveling alone it would be male than female and so and the the chances of anybody really doing a
00:49:21
venture like that on their own is is probably way less of a percentage as doing it with a group of people yeah
00:49:28
there were some cases in this area that we're talking about that took place in the 70s uh some of them being unsolved
00:49:35
murders and unsolved missing persons cases where the the victim was believed to have been hitchhiking at the time by
00:49:44
themselves and so it was kind of known and commonplace throughout this area that that you don't do this type of
00:49:51
activity by yourself that you should be with with another person or a group and therefore I mean he might he might have
00:49:59
just been doing this because that's all he could get into his car and we have Ed
00:50:03
keer who told told us that you know it was much easier for him to get two girls in the car at one time rather than than
00:50:12
one they're they're just more trusting when they have somebody else to go along with them well and I was thinking about
00:50:17
this the other day because we talk about controlling you know we've talked about
00:50:23
this a lot you know we've done 300 plus episodes but there's a lot of times where we go okay how did they get the
00:50:30
victim into the car or how did they control two victims and I actually think controlling two victims wouldn't be as
00:50:40
hard as as I've initially thought and that's because let's say you have a gun or a knife or whatever you have and
00:50:48
you're controlling you only have to control one of the individuals that other individual
00:50:56
chances are is not going to take off and run for it because what are you doing if
00:51:02
you do that right it's inevitable that the person that you're leaving behind is a goner right and and they've actually
00:51:10
you know some people will cite cases where a serial killer has has looked for a couple spe specifically like a married
00:51:21
couple or a um female and male couple because they find that sometimes as you said if you can just control one of the
00:51:32
individuals essentially you're controlling both of them and that's also what has been often speculated and and
00:51:40
theorized in the deli murders case right that yes would it be more difficult yes
00:51:46
it but given the relationship of the two involved it might have just been equally
00:51:51
as easy to control both and and there's been many people that have have said look those two neither of them would
00:51:57
have run or left the other alone they were there for each other so right and you see this also like with the
00:52:03
Zodiac yeah so continuing on with this uh profile here Captain the next thing is he he would keep items belonging to
00:52:14
his victims that he considers to be trophies some of this stuff is as you pointed out earlier
00:52:23
psychological but some of this is also created by evidence the profile itself right what we know here is we have these
00:52:31
individuals that have been murdered that yes they are out in the middle of you know nowhere essentially in an area that
00:52:38
is very difficult to search into to find actual evidence but we have multiple situations where it looks like these
00:52:46
victims are missing some of their belongings or all of their belongings so the evidence would tell you this is this
00:52:53
is something that might be psycholog local but probably more more added to the profile because of the evidence that
00:53:01
is involved we found these people but we didn't find their stuff it had to go somewhere they believed that the
00:53:07
offender or offenders would be keeping some of the items belonging to the victims and they may consider these to
00:53:13
be trophies now one forensic psychologist in his profile stated that he's talking about a single offender
00:53:25
said quote he's bad rather than mad he's evil he's not crazy is what they're pointing out there one one thing that is
00:53:36
strange here to me is this reminds me in a sense portions of this profile remind me of
00:53:45
Jack the Ripper a little bit so somebody who kills for pleasure and that the killer the killings are in fact sex
00:53:53
sexual in nature as they say in the profile though he may not be having sex with them let's take this a step further
00:54:01
when comparing it to somebody like Jack the Ripper and this is this is also stuff that they state in the profile of
00:54:06
these killings as well look this is difficult terrain this is an area that's not familiar to
00:54:14
everyone and so what they want to point out here is that this guy he hunts and he kills in an area where he is familiar
00:54:21
and comfortable that's just like Jack the Ripper did back in the day the difference here to me what I see
00:54:29
is a situation where Jack the Ripper hated women the backpack murderer he hates everyone right he just hates
00:54:37
people and it seems more so like especially those that He considers to be different from himself if if we're going
00:54:45
to go through this and believe that they are right in the sense that he hunts and
00:54:49
kills in an area that he is not only familiar but comfortable with mhm it's not a stretch to to believe that he's
00:54:55
not that he's you know from that area lives in that area and was born and raised in that area as well and we have
00:55:03
some of our victims here are are foreign to the land right so then you you wonder
00:55:09
if he just doesn't like foreigners or or if it makes it easier to I think it would make it easier I
00:55:16
mean think about it this way like they're not from this country and it's also of a time period where
00:55:23
communication is instantaneously right you're not going to be able to they're not texting people
00:55:30
right right so it's like somebody goes missing for a couple weeks it's going to take a while for for that to get back to
00:55:37
their family if they're from Europe or whatever MH so maybe that's part of it or but also maybe there's some
00:55:44
psychology to it where it's this guy this individual feels like he's stuck and he's stuck in a a place that he
00:55:52
can't get out of and and maybe he is somewhat in intelligent maybe somewhat skilled and he and he feels kind of
00:55:59
trapped by um the society he lives in and and these people are they're they're roaming the the world and they're seeing
00:56:06
the sights and they they have uh nowhere to be you know I mean no no destination
00:56:13
well and on top of that too like what they point out in Silence of the Lambs if the killer can see the victim
00:56:23
I'm going to call you name dropper how many cases uh are you going to name um throughout this episode I got a few more
00:56:30
of my notes here okay but um in in the in the movie sence of the Lambs they point out that it is it's easier for the
00:56:40
killer to kill the victim if they don't see them as a person if they see them as
00:56:44
an object and some of the victims being from a foreign land maybe they don't talk the same as our offender maybe they
00:56:51
don't look the exact same as our offender maybe that and in a way makes it easier throughout the interactions
00:56:59
with those individuals to see them as an object maybe even faster because the other thing you have to wonder too is
00:57:06
are there people if he is in fact finding the victims by way of hitchhiking are there people that he's
00:57:13
let go for any number of reasons throughout this I mean there's a lot to consider here there's a lot to think
00:57:21
about well and another thing about that too is if you pick up hitchhikers for example right like you're just pulling
00:57:30
up you can size up individuals a little bit right from inside your car while you're pulling up but you take uh a
00:57:39
scenario where you where maybe the uh the guy appears a little bit larger once you once he gets in the car
00:57:48
you know now you you start going okay well this girl seems strong and this guy seems strong so maybe these are these
00:57:56
are people that he can then just take to their destination and and move on MH you
00:58:01
know what I mean so it is a way of you know and I would I would assume like Ed keer would do the same thing you now
00:58:09
have them in the car you can kind of size them up you can kind of see if if they fit your likings and if they
00:58:16
don't uh you can you can just drop them off at the next exit right also one thing here captain that I want to point
00:58:24
out before we move move on that that I think is fascinating I think that we have
00:58:30
somebody that I would dub like a choice of weapon killer but on top of that we have a choice of victim type killer
00:58:37
right both male and female in some of the cases and that's fascinating in a sense
00:58:45
because we often do not see both genders killed by one offender so this again may
00:58:50
be pointing back to two offenders and then we have multiple weapons Implements of murder gun knife and rope sometimes
00:59:00
sometimes all three are used right but I again I think that points a lot of profilers to the idea that there's more
00:59:07
than one attacker I kind of view that as when when we talk about the sexual gratification that the person is getting
00:59:16
right that if that is true uh if they are getting that and that's kind of hard for
00:59:23
me to wrap my head around It's probably hard for a lot of us to wrap our head around um
00:59:30
but and if you're if you are wrapping your head around it you might want to go talk to somebody but
00:59:37
um the the thrill or the sensation is probably different with gun different with knife I mean we have a scenario
00:59:47
where we know there was knife involved we know there was a gun involved we know there was strangulation we don't know if
00:59:52
there was uh rope or not not right mhm but so those are three different acts and then also when you have uh the
01:00:03
decapitation I don't mean to be so gory but with this decapitation we don't know
01:00:09
if this was a machete or some kind of Sword so it's almost like like you were saying like this person is knows he's
01:00:18
going to pick his victims and then he's going to have all these things with him because he wants to I think he wants to
01:00:23
try killing in different manners and with different instruments to see if there's
01:00:30
different uh sexual gratification MH which is which reminds me of a zodiac communic the the one that where he
01:00:41
states by fire by gun by knife by rope again we want to thank you guys so much for joining us each week in the
01:01:02
garage our buddies our Pals thank you thank you thank you thank you our filthy animals a thousand thank yous a thousand
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filthy animals thank you so much and thank you for sharing on social media join us back here in the garage tomorrow
01:01:16
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