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welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and
00:01:48
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00:01:55
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right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music]
00:03:58
crime [Music] but we knew that it wasn't we knew that Rosie wouldn't just climb out of the
00:04:24
window at that late of night and just leave and go herself in the river cuz we know she wouldn't do that Rosie tapia's
00:04:35
sister and family never believed her drowning was accidental her mother discovered Rosie missing just before
00:04:40
6:00 a.m. Sunday the window of her bedroom open screen removed now autopsy results reveal Rosie was probably
00:04:48
sexually assaulted before drowning in the Jordan River Canal where her body was discovered by a jogger it's just so
00:04:54
sad because somebody could be so sick to take a baby from her room from her security and do such a rotten thing to
00:05:08
her what are we supposed to do keep our kids locked up our windows locked our doors
00:05:14
locked put bars on our window to keep our kids from being stolen and and tossed in a river they're following this
00:05:23
up um with additional um statements and interviews of the victims and also Witnesses
00:05:30
because uh it's uh it's becoming a more a larger investigation than maybe it was
00:05:37
initially one of the Avenues under investigation reports that a man was seen hanging around the apartment
00:05:43
playground a man who carried Rosie home Saturday after she fell off the slide she said that guy was sitting on one the
00:05:51
benches just watching the kids and why would a guy just watch kids if he didn't have no
00:05:58
kids he's is's probably seeing who he's going to hit [Music] next none of the kids are safe you know
00:06:08
until they find this person who did this families who live here are now living in
00:06:13
fear after the abduction sexual assault and murder of six-year-old Rosie Topia relatives and neighbors are now taking
00:06:20
no Chances with their own children I let my kids run around here and I want this
00:06:24
guy caught because I'm scared that it might happen to my son or my daughter or my other son Cara Hansen's daughter was
00:06:30
nearly abducted about a year ago so what kind of precautions are you taking with
00:06:34
your children just sitting outside with them while they play um making them come
00:06:38
in when I go in just not letting them play outside by themselves around 8:00 p.m. authorities
00:06:47
brought in a team of blood hounds to try and track down where Rosie went into the
00:06:51
canal police suspect the child knew her abductor and right now there are a few suspects but very little to go on a
00:06:58
neighbor who lived two floor above Rosie's window reported hearing a scream yesterday morning and other neighbors
00:07:03
say a strange man had brought the girl home from this playground Saturday night after she fell I don't believe it's
00:07:09
somebody we know um hopefully it's not because it'd be even more devastated to know that Rosie's death comes one week
00:07:18
after this woman's daughter was abducted and raped from the same apartment complex this woman says the property
00:07:24
managers told her to keep it quiet oh now right now the our main concern is our security if we're going to have to
00:07:29
leave here I think there should be better either either better security or more security security is now everyone's
00:07:38
concern but for Rosie's family the priority is getting the killer in custody for somebody to do this he had
00:07:44
to have a sick mind very sick mind to do something like this to a six-year-old girl what began as a tragic drowning is
00:07:52
now being called a murder here's what we know little Rosie was discovered missing
00:07:57
just before 6:00 a.m. yesterday police say her bedroom window was open and the screen removed a jogger discovered her
00:08:04
body in the Jordan River canal and an autopsy performed today indicates Rosie had been sexually assaulted before
00:08:11
drowning in the [Music] river we are still investigating the still unsolved homicide of 6-year-old Rosie
00:08:41
Topia it's amazing to me Captain that all of these years later this case is still unsolved but as we said yesterday
00:08:50
there is some meat on the bone so let's go through some of the DNA evidence the suspects that are involved here as well
00:08:59
well as our offender profile now a quick recap of the case we have our victim's mother who checks in on Rosie at 2:30
00:09:08
a.m. now she is sleeping in her bedroom with her 4-year-old sister and 4-year-old brother by 5:45 a.m. Rosie
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was missing from her bedroom this is discovered by her mother the bedroom window was open the screen was removed
00:09:28
and the girl is missing the police were immediately notified and a search was initiated by approximately 10 a.m. the
00:09:36
victim's body was located by a man who was out walking his dog the body was floating in the Surplus Canal about a
00:09:45
block from the apartment where she was taken the autopsy revealed that Rosie had been sexually assaulted this is an
00:09:54
open and active case and the Salt Lake City police department is seeking in information in this case one thing that
00:10:02
I found a little strange here Captain when reviewing the information back from 1995 was that Salt Lake City was
00:10:10
experiencing something that the rest of the country really was not so the serious crime rate and when we say
00:10:17
serious crimes we're ref referring to things like murder rape burglaries violent crimes things like that the
00:10:25
serious crime rate fell nationally for consecutive years in a row from 1991 to 1995 in fact dropping 2% Nationwide from
00:10:36
1994 to 1995 but the opposite of that was Salt Lake City Salt Lake City at the time
00:10:45
ranked third amongst large cities in the US for an increase in serious crime in fact the crime rate in Salt Lake City
00:10:53
itself climbed a whopping 16.4% so so while Nationwide we are experiencing dropping rates Salt Lake
00:11:03
City at this time was was experiencing something completely different Rising rates and Rising significantly probably
00:11:11
due to high sodium diets well let's dive into the timeline of the investigation and that will lead us to some suspects
00:11:18
along the way days after the funeral service for little Rosy Topia we have a Barbie doll that was found left at her
00:11:28
grave site this Barbie doll was collected by her mother her mother collected several
00:11:34
items that were left at the grave site and it's not uncommon for things to be left in Memorial to victims or even to
00:11:43
loved ones that pass from natural causes and Rosie's case you had your typical things like pictures grievance
00:11:53
cards candles stuffed animals things of that nature that were left at the grave site but one item in particular that was
00:12:02
of particular interest to Rosie's mother was this Barbie doll that was left at the grave site now a bunch of these
00:12:09
items that were left at Rosie's grave site the mother the family collected them and maintain these items for many
00:12:17
years to come the Barbie doll that was collected by her mother will actually become part of this
00:12:24
investigation decades later that's going to lead us to 20 2 captain in November of 2002 an unknown person left a rock on
00:12:35
Rosie tapia's grave with a note written on it now we do not know what that note says but we what we do know is the Salt
00:12:43
Lake City police dep department has publicly announced this event as well as that they are seeking the person that
00:12:53
left the rock that left the note that wrote the note they want to speak to this individual now that was 20 years
00:13:00
ago that that rock was left on the grave site we don't have any report indicating
00:13:06
that that person ever came forward or that they were ever able to locate the individual or if they were able if they
00:13:13
were able to locate or identify the individual if they spoke to them so we don't know what has come of that piece
00:13:20
of information but what's interesting to me is years later decades later they decide this Barbie doll that was left at
00:13:28
the grave site is important to the investigation and back in 2002 they knew that this rock with the
00:13:36
note left on it was important to the investigation and made that clear to the public at some point seeking this
00:13:43
individual so is there a connection between the Barbie doll and The Rock it's difficult to sit here and say we
00:13:50
don't know the information that was left in that note but what it does do because
00:13:57
initially when I hear about the this Barbie doll and being a big deal and then we're going to have it tested and
00:14:02
all that stuff I go well it could be a nothing Burger because people leave stuff all the time and is it possible
00:14:09
that somebody brings their daughter to leave some flowers at the grave site and the daughter has a toy with them and
00:14:15
decides well I'm going to leave this toy for her but what we do have with this rock and this note is that obviously
00:14:23
somebody's trying to communicate with their family or LA enforcement through that grave site so
00:14:31
it puts a little bit more uh value or more it puts it as a higher probability that maybe somebody was trying to make a
00:14:40
statement by leaving some kind of doll at the grave site I kind of Leap Frog something on accident here in our
00:14:47
timeline so I want to make sure that I include this now before we get too far along good job dumbass but there was a
00:14:55
lead that they were trying to follow up on early on in this investigation and I want to make sure that we include this
00:15:03
Captain because we don't know if this information could be paired with something else in the timeline or a
00:15:09
suspect in this timeline so the lead that they were working on early in the investigation was what they were
00:15:18
referring to as an elusive truck this was a truck they were trying to find they were trying to identify this truck
00:15:25
trying to find the owner of this vehicle this elusive truck we don't get much in
00:15:32
the way of a description other than something that could be a very key identifier on the truck was the truck
00:15:41
had a mountain fuel logo on it and this was spotted by multiple individuals in the Heartland apartments complex where
00:15:50
Rosie lived Mountain fuel records indicate that no employee visited the complex in the day
00:15:58
prior to Rosie's death and the truck is described as old so the detectives have come forward
00:16:07
and they said we're looking for this truck it's described as an older model truck we've checked the
00:16:14
records of mountain fuel they have no employees in the area in the days surrounding the murder we think that
00:16:22
maybe this vehicle had been sold at one point and somebody else is now driving this truck around so back to our
00:16:29
timeline this will take us up to 2012 and we are getting this information from Jensen private
00:16:37
investigations.com they have a brief article on there that states that just days after an arrest was made in another
00:16:47
murder case unfortunately this was the murder of Sierra newold this arrest led to the Tapia
00:16:57
family wondering if the man accused of murdering Sierra if this could possibly be linked to their daughter's murder
00:17:06
that took place 17 years prior the details of this are eerily similar so in both cases we have an abduction and then
00:17:17
a murder when comparing Rosie tapia's case to Sierra nal's case both girls were taken from their homes both were
00:17:26
sexually assaulted and then drowned in a Jordan Canal it's strange but also super
00:17:32
creepy when these cases sound it sounds like the same case just a different victim's name we talked about the
00:17:38
Surplus Canal where Rosie Topia was found well unfortunately this other girl who was similar and age similar victim
00:17:47
type to Rosie unfortunately experienced a very similar situation we have Sierra newold
00:17:57
where the perpetrator of that crime entered the home and exited the home through a sliding glass door and then of
00:18:05
course we have Rosie's case where the perpetrator came in through the window it appears likely that the offender in
00:18:12
Rosie's case exited the home the same way that they entered the home I would like to get a little bit further
00:18:18
confirmation on that because I think when we talk about a basement apartment Captain you can start to see the
00:18:24
complexities right when trying to remove a child or remove a victim in that manner right now you've got to climb
00:18:32
back up and and get through that window with your victim some people have wondered if there might be two persons
00:18:39
involved in Rosie's case that would certainly make it easier to transport the victim yeah easier to transport the
00:18:46
victim but also easier to maintain control of the victim well the man that was arrested in the other case was Terry
00:18:54
black he was arrested for multiple crimes but one of them was the murder of Sierra newold and the special
00:19:02
investigator Jason Jensen is interviewed here and goes on to tell us a little bit about black
00:19:10
saying that they looked into Black's criminal record which spans throughout four states Jensen investigations was
00:19:18
able to determine that yes in fact this Terry black was living in the state of Utah when Rosie was killed they go on to
00:19:27
say that he was a Salt Lake County resident at that time and they want to be clear here saying so you can't rule
00:19:35
him in you can't just automatically rule him in but you also cannot rule him out
00:19:41
in Rosie's case until we have some more information yeah because one we could test the DNA if we have a full sample
00:19:49
size of that DNA but also this could be a serial killer with the same M Mo like we said the crimes are identical with
00:19:57
just different Vic names sadly in this same article here Captain we have Len Topia Rosie's mother who has been
00:20:08
upfront and Center has been the face of this investigation since day one and kudos to her for reminding everybody
00:20:16
about this case because again I didn't see a great deal of coverage locally when this first case broke and really it
00:20:24
wasn't until these other organizations stepped in that you start to see all of these stories coming out and it now goes
00:20:32
on to become a national story and today 20 23 we have a ton of information and a
00:20:40
ton of stories about Rosie's case on the Internet thanks to the help of these other entities now Len Topia in this
00:20:49
article is quoted as saying I'm just hoping I find out before I go she's referencing finding out who killed her
00:20:57
daughter and she adds I will be up in heaven with her but I still won't know who took her well now this is going to
00:21:03
bring us to 2018 and I'm going to read some portions of this article that came out this is
00:21:10
when we get informed about this Barbie doll that was left years ago at Little Rosie tapia's grave site this is from
00:21:20
2018 People magazine the headline could a Barbie doll hold the clue to solving a 23e y
00:21:28
old cold case they go on to say the mother of a murdered child discovered a Barbie doll at her grave site 23 years
00:21:35
ago and kept it in a glass case it has been more than 20 years since six-year-old Rosie Tapia was kidnapped
00:21:44
from her Salt Lake City Home assaulted and killed her body was found in a canal off of the Jordan River several hours
00:21:52
after her disappearance Now 23 years later the Utah Cold Case coalition is asking the public for any tips related
00:22:01
to a Barbie doll which was found on top of the girl's grave shortly after she died in 1995 quote Rosie's mother went
00:22:09
back to her grave regularly she went back and found this doll there which was a bit unusual and kept it in a glass
00:22:18
case this whole time in September of 2017 we should point out here that this Utah Cold Case Coalition is not a law
00:22:29
enforcement entity okay they are victim Advocates they assist victims families in trying to further the investigations
00:22:38
keep the investigations in the spotlight in the media and help raise money and resources to possibly finally solve some
00:22:48
of these cases so this is where you see from a media standpoint anyway this case
00:22:54
take a 180 degree turn from where there's not a whole lot being reported on Rosie's case until you get Jensen
00:23:03
investigations until you get the Utah Cold Case Coalition involved and they've really helped to climb to the mountain
00:23:11
tops and keep shouting and shouting and shouting from the mountain tops about this case since then yeah but we also
00:23:17
all know how it works when there's a case take the Brian schaer case guy walks into a bar he's seen on camera
00:23:24
never seen on camera leaving the bar is he inside the outside there's like a little creepy factor that Sparks our
00:23:32
human interest and so I think in this case when you start going well there's this creepy man that returned her home
00:23:40
returned Rosie home the day that she was kidnapped that's that kind of Sparks your interest and then when you find out
00:23:47
that there's this Barbie doll that might have some significance and then you can
00:23:51
start picturing your mind's eye This creepy Barbie doll that's found at the grave site I think it really Sparks our
00:23:58
human interest to go I I want to know more about this case so in September of 2017 the Coalition approached the Salt
00:24:06
Lake City Police Department with that Barbie doll and they asked them to test it for DNA but unfortunately they say
00:24:14
they basically did not get a response or we can assume they at least did not get
00:24:20
the response that they wanted since then the Coalition decided to move forward on
00:24:25
testing the doll without assistance from law enforcement they go on to say that there will be two phases in the test the
00:24:33
first phase extracts the DNA that they're hoping to find and the second which is the more costly portion
00:24:41
identifies the DNA so this article comes out in 2018 so when they say last year they're
00:24:51
referring to 2017 they say that the group was able to pay to get the DNA extracted from the
00:24:58
doll which did include male DNA the group believes that the doll known as a pretty hearts Barbie could be a valuable
00:25:09
clue in the case and they are hoping someone will come forward with any information on who may have left it
00:25:16
there quote we thought we'd give the public a chance to say I left that there or hey that's my doll it went missing
00:25:25
now I know where it is so what they're saying here Captain is they've taken on this without the assistance of law
00:25:32
enforcement it's a two-phase process in 2018 they're saying we've already paid for phase one phase two is the much more
00:25:41
costly much more expensive part of the investigation right we're making an announcement publicly this came out in
00:25:49
People magazine it was on the internet it was it was in every newspaper that you can think of and they're saying we
00:25:55
just want somebody to come forward let us know if you left the Barbie doll there because if somebody comes forward
00:26:01
and we're like we can prove that they had nothing to do with the case well we can move on and we don't have to waste
00:26:09
resources and money on identifying who left it there what's interesting to me Captain was the way that this Barbie
00:26:17
doll is described it was described as used okay so I wanted to know what used meant right I'm assuming it's not in its
00:26:27
Packaging well all my toys all my toys growing up were used but take it a step further I was told by somebody very
00:26:34
close to the case that it it's described as used because it was clear that it it
00:26:40
was not only not in its packaging this was a Barbie doll that was likely sold the year prior to her murder and had
00:26:50
obvious signs of wear and tear that it was played with this could be looked at as a creep fact could be looked at
00:26:59
simply as maybe a child did this but there were some chew marks on the feet of the Barbie doll yeah I think a lot of
00:27:07
this to me just points to the idea that a child is there their parents are showing their condolences and then the
00:27:15
child leaves the Barbie and look maybe the child doesn't remember leaving the Barbie maybe the parents don't remember
00:27:22
the child leaving the Barbie as said they were able to determine they were able to to ex ract some male DNA or DNA
00:27:31
that included male DNA from the doll now what we do know is we sit here five years later after this article came out
00:27:41
five years after they asked someone to come forward claim to have left the doll or know who left the doll yeah and
00:27:49
nobody's come forward so that means one of three things there there's only three
00:27:55
possible outcomes with that a a the person that left the doll is completely innocent and just never heard the public
00:28:03
cry for information right B the person is who left it wants to remain anonymous for any number of
00:28:11
reasons a lot of those reasons I would say would be suspicious or three you mean c keep in
00:28:19
mind this doll was left in 1995 people think you're a genius given the victim's age it wouldn't be out of the realm of
00:28:26
possibility that a friend or a loved one or even just somebody being sympathetic
00:28:32
from afar from watching on TV or from the neighborhood maybe another young person close and age to Rosie left the
00:28:42
doll there and now fast forward to 2018 all those years later they were just so young they don't recall leaving
00:28:52
the Barbie doll at the gravite right so to me there's only three reasons why somebody wouldn't come forward one of
00:28:59
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00:32:02
us cheers everybody cheers sippy sippy on your cup look I I hate to poo poo on the parade but I'm not so concerned with
00:32:14
this Barbie doll as I'm concerned with this man that brings her Rosie back to the apartment after she has an accident
00:32:22
on the playground yes air quotes accident on the playground got kicked in the back because there's
00:32:27
the other side of that debate is that it never happened that that the person brought Rosie back but she was not hurt
00:32:34
wasn't crying was not in need of assistance and this person might have just been looking for some kind of
00:32:41
information to to later use well because initially everybody in the apartment complex goes hey we know who this guy is
00:32:49
he doesn't have any kids he sits at the park he plays guitar for the kids he's kind of a strange weirdo so if he's at
00:32:57
the park multiple times then probably pretty likely that he knows who Rosie is it's probably pretty likely he knows
00:33:04
where her apartment is but it's very strange to be a guy playing guitar at the park for kids uh and watching kids
00:33:13
when you don't have any of your own so here this becomes a big problem for the investigation and from the Salt Lake
00:33:21
City Police Department's investigation from that side early on in the investigation they said that they had
00:33:28
identified this man and for clarity purposes we're going to call this man the Good Samaritan right the guy that's
00:33:34
what he's been referred to in multiple Stories the guy that brought Rosie home to her apartment that night said that
00:33:40
she was hurt on the playground they say that they identified him as a man who had a son that was a divorce a so he had
00:33:49
his son part-time right and he played guitar at the playground and often his son was there with him so you have and
00:33:58
you heard it in our sound clip leading into today's storytelling of the case that people were suspicious of people in
00:34:06
the park or people at the playground why would a man be sitting there by himself
00:34:10
why would he be there without a child old flicky flicky pedo people were suspicious of that and rightfully so
00:34:16
well police say we moved on from the Good Samaritan because we identified him as a man who I believe he was a truck
00:34:23
driver or worked out of town for a portion of his schedule he's a divorce a with his with his son has his
00:34:32
son part-time lives in the apartment complex and was known to play the guitar at the playground by the way based off
00:34:41
of his work records they show that he was out of town when Rosie was abducted and killed the problem with that then
00:34:52
becomes Guitar Man and the Good Samaritan cannot be the same person we again we don't have the details did he
00:35:00
leave on a trucking route at midnight right and so then we know that from from the time period that she was abducted
00:35:09
that he wouldn't have been around but he could have been able to bring her back to the apartment earlier that day I like
00:35:16
you said I think it's it's very unclear if this good Samaran and this this uh divorce a truck driver if
00:35:25
they're the same person right is Guitar Man and the Good Samaritan the same person there have been people that have
00:35:31
come forward and said no we know who the guitar guy is just like the police says
00:35:37
and we are saying that's not the same person so then in retrospect they go back and they look and unfortunately
00:35:44
even though they said they were able to move on from the Good Samaritan very much like a case that we very recently
00:35:50
reviewed there's no documents backing any of that up they can't say who spoke to this man there's no documents backing
00:36:00
it up showing that that they positively identified the Good Samaritan man so many are pointing out a problem with
00:36:08
that having moved on from the Good Samaritan too quickly that maybe maybe they misidentified him and that those
00:36:17
two individuals are not one and the same but what we do have is Rosie's sister answered the door and talked to this man
00:36:24
the problem is he's wearing a hat he's in glasses he's almost like Incognito mhm and then when they release a sketch
00:36:34
of this individual he looks like an alien human from Men In Black right right well difficult to say he he could
00:36:43
be a an alien in Disguise or he could be the man in Black right it's a it's a Men
00:36:48
In Black type situation the guy the the description is basically take a face and
00:36:54
put big sunglasses and a hat on it and then your your sketch that you get yeah in the face before we move on too far
00:37:00
from the Barbie doll though Captain I do want to point out that the um a little too obsessed with dolls of all the
00:37:07
things that they paid for again nobody ever came forward taking credit for leaving the Barbie doll we should point
00:37:14
out a couple of things here that the Coalition the Cold Case Coalition has pointed out saying that they have
00:37:23
received numerous calls about Barbie dolls left at grav for other murdered girls including some in other states and
00:37:32
they go on to say that they don't know if there is any possible link between any of the cases but they do say the
00:37:38
time frames we've been contacted on are fairly close together although in different states could it be the same
00:37:45
person I don't know could it be a certain type of Predator I don't know could it also be totally innocent
00:37:52
possibly well no and think about uh True Detective the One season there was these
00:37:59
handmade woven uh dolls that were given to these victims so when they go to investigate these murder crimes and they
00:38:09
go look through uh the rooms of the victims they find these handmade dolls to me that
00:38:18
that would be a link but uh a Barbie doll is such a common item a lot of these people that are showing respect to
00:38:26
these victims by leaving flowers or just visiting the grave site if they have a child with
00:38:32
them I could totally see a child going well I'm going to donate my doll and I could also see that being a a situation
00:38:41
with Rosie's case where the parent might not have even known that their daughter
00:38:46
did that and look I have pretty good memories of of things I've done and you'd think that this would also be a
00:38:54
memory that would stick out to you going to go visit a a grave when you're a little kid but I have friends of mine
00:39:01
that they can't remember [ __ ] from when they're a kid in 2019 the Utah Cold Case
00:39:06
Coalition released a sketch of a possible suspect in Rosie tapia's murder according to a press release the sketch
00:39:14
is based on a neighbor's recollection the neighbor lived in the same apartment complex where the 6-year-old lived when
00:39:21
she was abducted and murdered the neighbor claims that he was early saw a teenager coming from the same direction
00:39:29
as the canal where she was later found at first as the captain pointed out yesterday this neighbor thought that the
00:39:36
teen was wearing pants of two different colors but then realized the pants were wet this is interesting this is the lead
00:39:44
in the sketch that we talked about yesterday this is the one that comes out but it doesn't come out until
00:39:52
2019 now some of these reports state that this this neighbor cuz you're sitting here going well why would this
00:39:59
individual wait so long to tell anybody about this this neighbor person I don't know if it's a she or he but they claim
00:40:07
that they did give this information to the Salt Lake City Police Department back in
00:40:13
1995 but there was little to no followup on it at all the witness described this
00:40:20
teenager as a 16 to 17-year-old boy who is Hispanic with a slight build and a narrow face with high cheekbones he says
00:40:30
that he was seen wearing denim jeans a white shirt and a medium length gold chain baller now what's interesting is
00:40:39
that police get this sketch and they hold on to it for a period of time I believe it was like two
00:40:48
months yeah the reason why this sketch is so important I've looked at this in comparison to the Good Samaritan sketch
00:40:56
the man that returned Rosie right there's not the Good Samaritan sketch is not descriptive enough really to compare
00:41:03
it to anything I've heard and read people say that the sketches look like they could be the same person frankly I
00:41:10
mean I don't think it's you can compare anything to the Good Samaritan sketch no
00:41:16
because he looks like undercover alien but no I think this is actually the the biggest and best lead that we have and
00:41:25
it and sucks that it took so long to one compile the sketch and then to release the sketch because again I'm going to go
00:41:33
back to the initial investigation this becomes very difficult for law enforcement because you have basically a
00:41:39
small town in this apartment complex so you would see a lot of individuals so to jog your memory and go
00:41:48
oh yeah there was a a teenage boy that would walk around the complex to dra jog your me
00:41:55
memory 10 15 years later to try to identify somebody that you might have only seen a few times that if this
00:42:03
sketch was released two weeks after the murders I think you'd have a lot of people coming forward and saying well
00:42:09
that looks like Ricky or that looks like Steve or that looks like whoever it's so
00:42:13
difficult and we've talked about this before we've talked to plenty of detectives that say time is everything
00:42:19
we bring it up all the time time is the killer time is the killer of evidence time is the killer of solving these
00:42:25
cases and the detectives would tell you if early on in the investigation had we just spoke to this person I think the
00:42:33
outcome would have been different had we just found this piece of the puzzle early in the investigation instead of
00:42:38
all these years later I think that the outcome would be different I agree with you here Captain I think that this is
00:42:45
that piece of the puzzle this is that person that had they just had this information and maybe they did again
00:42:53
this person is saying that I gave this information we don't know it's difficult to say we can only base it off of the
00:42:58
reports we are seeing but had they had this information back in 1995 maybe we're not sitting here talking about an
00:43:05
unsolved homicide and the reason why I state that is because this 2019 sketch of wet pants man may be the most and
00:43:15
best tip that they've got all along and this is going to be the best way of crowdsourcing this case so there's some
00:43:24
backstory that comes along with this composite sketch and that is that when the composite sketch was released by the
00:43:33
police this man who is reported his name is Dan contacts the police department and says that sketch looks similar to a
00:43:44
friend of mine he was a friend of mine back in 1995 and he's still somebody that I stay in touch with to this day
00:43:51
right now we're no longer close but we were back in '95 and he says what's even more strange
00:44:00
about the sketch is that prior to it being released his friend had called him and said hey I
00:44:08
heard that they're putting together a sketch of somebody that they think is a suspect in the rosie Topia case and this
00:44:15
Dan individual says yes that's what I've heard as well and the friend of Dan says
00:44:20
to Dan wouldn't it be funny if the sketch looks like one of us well I'm sure they probably shared a laugh and it
00:44:27
seems like a dumb statement I don't know why any of that would be funny when we're talking about the murder of a
00:44:33
six-year-old but right Dan calls police and says look my friend called me before
00:44:38
the sketch came out and said wouldn't it be funny if it looks like one of us now
00:44:42
the sketch comes out I think it looks like my friend right the one that thought it would be so hilarious well
00:44:48
guess guess I'm guessing he didn't find it to be too funny when it does come out
00:44:52
and it looks like him there is some reports out there that uh this individual states that I've seen the
00:44:59
sketch it does not look like me in that person's opinion this person to their credit did agree to a DNA swab and so
00:45:10
did the Dan individual agreed to a DNA swab I know that the unnamed individual the friend that they did in fact collect
00:45:20
his DNA well one of the things that we have or one of the things I've seen reported is that that Rosie at least put
00:45:27
up some kind of struggle and so they believe that they could get some DNA from underneath her fingernails I've
00:45:34
referenced once or twice that we spoke to somebody very close to the case and I was not aware at the time when speaking
00:45:41
to this individual that this unnamed person the friend of Dan had wet pants what's that the guy that could be Mr wet
00:45:52
pants possibly could be Mr wet pants I did not know that this friend of Dan had agreed to a DNA swap yeah I didn't see
00:46:00
that reported but this is one of those weird scenarios where you were actually able to talk to an individual that's
00:46:06
really close to this case so some of the stuff that you're putting out in this episode I'm hearing for the first time
00:46:12
as well so what happened is this uh and I'm going to go through our interaction together because I did not know this in
00:46:21
advance my reaction to him telling me this information was I said look I've reviewed I'm no detective but I've
00:46:30
reviewed a lot of homicide cases here in the garage with the captain and it's my
00:46:35
experience that guilty people don't so willingly offer up their DNA and he said to me that's exactly right Nick but keep
00:46:46
in mind when he offered up his DNA there was a big question mark out there whether DNA existed as evidence in this
00:46:54
case at all right right in fact there was police on record more than one occasion stating that they did not have
00:47:03
DNA so I said to him either that's some great strategy by the police to not release that they have DNA or there's
00:47:11
something weird with the DNA evidence yeah well like we said one of the Destroyers of evidence is time but
00:47:19
also water I think that's why you see some of these cases even if there are these brutal murders but the victim is
00:47:26
found in water it it becomes way more difficult for law enforcement to put together the pieces of the puzzle to
00:47:33
solve the case now let's stay in the year of 2019 here as we continue on our timeline
00:47:39
because this directly impacts what we were just talking about in 2019 new details about the case were
00:47:48
released by the Salt Lake City police department but this was done in an episode by Investigation Discovery
00:47:55
Network the pazon on the case uh pazan pazon on the case with pazan and the episode about
00:48:06
Rosie tapia's murder was titled she's gone for the first time in Rosie's case the case had gone National on on a big
00:48:16
national scale here Beyond even what the national scale that it hit in 2018 again I want to point out all the
00:48:24
good work that the G investigations have done and the Cold Case Coalition because
00:48:30
they're the entities that made this a national story when this case did not get a whole lot of local media coverage
00:48:37
they changed that 180 degrees once they stepped in so and they've worked directly with the Topia family on this
00:48:46
case all along don't dismiss the power of pazon well don't dismiss the power of these Victim advoc Advocacy programs
00:48:55
these um nonprofit organizations that exist what was shocking to Rosie's mother when she
00:49:06
watched the pazon case and the Topia family was participating in the making of that episode but when she watched it
00:49:15
she for the very first time says that she learned that they did have DNA in her daughter's case says quote I did not
00:49:23
know that they had DNA from her fingernail I asked them a long time ago if they had
00:49:28
DNA from her fingernails and they told me they didn't have any end quote now you'd think you're being cooperative
00:49:36
with this production company you would think that well first of all you'd think one we're going to disclose all the
00:49:45
information to you before we release it to the public but also maybe that we're going to let you watch watch it before
00:49:52
it comes out let you watch the documentary early before the information comes out to the public the if you're
00:49:59
going to play the numbers here the numbers would tell you the statistics would tell you that the overwhelming
00:50:06
majority of the time this kind of offender is known to the family knows the family or knows the victim right my
00:50:14
suspicion here is if in fact they had good DNA evidence and that's what I think we need to hone in on here in a
00:50:22
second if in fact they had good DNA evidence if there's a chance that they thought
00:50:28
that the perpetrator may be known to the family they may have withheld this information from the family as well as
00:50:36
part of their investigation right which which does make some sense according to police statements on the pazon episode
00:50:44
Salt Lake City police said that they have more than 60 samples from different persons in this case now it's also been
00:50:54
reported that they could not enter or compare the DNA that they found in Rosie's case to DNA on codus that it did
00:51:05
not meet the criteria for being able to upload it or compare it to the coda database yeah most likely meaning it
00:51:14
doesn't have enough markers correct which the point I was going to make that I had a little brain fart earlier I
00:51:22
heard it it smells we have a ey witness that is saying that this Mr wet pants is
00:51:29
a late teenager this is a horrific crime this is the type of crime that even if this is his first crime this is probably
00:51:39
a murderer that's going to continue on the path of being a horrific murderer so you would think at some
00:51:47
point he would either get caught for this or like you said get caught in a home and then get charged
00:51:54
with break in entering but it all depends on where he was arrested did they collect DNA and like you said if
00:52:03
there's not enough markers then you can't even compare that DNA but it wouldn't surprise me if this
00:52:09
individual was in prison or has been in prison for another crime or attempting another crime like this so here's what I
00:52:17
can tell you here's what I've learned very recent it to us Colonel the DNA stuff let's set that
00:52:24
aside for a minute so we know that the DNA was collected from the friend of Dan Dan not only tells police this guy
00:52:33
my old friend resembles the sketch that you're now putting out but he also said this weird statement to me a month or so
00:52:40
before the sketch came out wouldn't it be funny if it looked like one of us now we have this
00:52:47
situation where we learn a little bit about this friend from Dan now Dan is very important and could be key to this
00:52:55
investigation for a couple of reasons one he's saying that my friend Dan was young of course roughly
00:53:03
17 18ish let's say around the time of Rosy's murder his friend would have been 16 at the time so that fits with the
00:53:14
sketch of wet pants man who he also Dan is saying this man looks like Dan at one
00:53:20
time dated Amelia the older daughter the 18-year-old daughter that was watching the kids that night and as the captain
00:53:30
had talked about on our last episode The ex-boyfriend Dan was an ex-boyfriend he
00:53:35
was somebody who had gone into the Tapia apartment on more than one occasion to meet with his girlfriend Amelia and when
00:53:44
he did he would do that via that same window that the offender came in and abducted Rosie Topia but it even gets
00:53:53
more deep gets more deep because he says his friend was aware that he would use this window to climb in and out of the
00:54:02
Topia home right this guy has intimate knowledge of the crime scene intimate knowledge of the
00:54:10
family he looks like the sketch and it's been pointed out to me by the person close to the investigation
00:54:18
that this individual may have only given his DNA swab willingly voluntarily because he may have been led to believe
00:54:27
or was under the assumption at the time that they didn't have DNA evidence in Rosie tapia's case right or look maybe
00:54:35
he's also aware that they do have DNA but it's just partial and so maybe he is one of these narcissists that's like hey
00:54:45
well try your luck with this partial DNA not every criminal is so smart either most of the time that it's the opposite
00:54:52
and maybe he just felt pressured enough that he submitted the DNA just to get them off
00:54:57
of his back right and crossed his fingers and hope that he would get lucky what's difficult though is now we sit
00:55:03
here a couple years later and where it sits where the case sits is there is a $100,000 reward in the rosie Topia case
00:55:12
that money is not meant for a witness to come forward after all of these years who saw something and just forgot it and
00:55:19
didn't and decided not to come forward when you put together a substantial reward like that
00:55:25
that tells me that the people putting together the reward believe that there are other people that are aware of what
00:55:32
this person did this money is a nudge this money is encouragement to turn on that individual that you may have been
00:55:41
protecting out of fear for all of these years well no and I would bet money if this douchebag is saying things to his
00:55:51
friend Dan oh would it be funny if we looked like the sketch and Dan is obviously close to the victim in in the
00:56:02
sense that he dated the older sibling so he knows the family so if he's making weird
00:56:09
statements to somebody that knows the family knows probably a little bit about the investigation probably
00:56:15
knows a little bit about the crime what other weird comments has he made to other individuals maybe at a bar when he
00:56:22
gets drunk maybe at a party what other weird statements has he made to other people that weren't connected
00:56:29
to the family and weren't connected to the crime so as far as the DNA goes what we've been told where the kiss case sits
00:56:38
now is the DNA collected from the victim is being sent off for genealogy detection work that the DNA collected
00:56:48
from the Barbie doll is being sent off by the private entity for Gene neology detection work
00:56:56
those statements came out a while ago so if there's been any movement or advancement and and guess what I have
00:57:02
personal experience and can tell you those are not fast investigations the genealogy stuff can
00:57:09
take 6 weeks 6 months 18 months 2 years it can be a long and difficult process and you're not always guaranteed results
00:57:19
so we don't know exactly where that stands other than we've been told it's been sent off in both cases by two
00:57:26
different entities yeah or sometimes they get results back that then take more leg work to connect the dots the
00:57:35
thing is with the DNA that's collected from the victim and we've seen this in plenty of other cases too Captain you
00:57:40
can usually use those if it does not have enough markers to fit the criteria for
00:57:45
codus it likely has enough markers that you can rule some people out from those 60 that you've collected and you can
00:57:54
keep some people in but you can't conclusively link it to one individual now we talked about early on how there
00:58:03
were statements given by police that yes the FBI is working to put together a profile on the offender but then they've
00:58:09
never made that profile if it exist public so in those cases when able and I think we can he Captain I like to do
00:58:20
what some people think is very arrogant of me but guess what you go get your own
00:58:24
show and you can do what you want on your show this is our show so I got 50% of the say wow I like to put together
00:58:30
our own biged I like to put together our own profile here for you in the garage and I'm going to use some expert
00:58:38
information to piece that together I'll start it off with the lesser of the experts that would be yours truly the
00:58:47
colonel now it's been my experience in the cases that we've reviewed that are similar to Rosie's case that we are
00:58:55
usually talking about a younger offender and it's not terribly uncommon in fact the numbers would suggest that it is
00:59:04
more common that the offender in this type of case has a similar or the same ethnic background as the victim so what
00:59:13
I'm saying here is when you can see and review this case on a map the first thing that jumps off the page is the
00:59:22
person that abducted K and placed the body and left the body in that Canal did not need any means of transportation
00:59:31
other than their own two legs to commit this crime sometimes that's an indicator
00:59:36
that your offender is either too young to drive or of a younger age and does not possess a vehicle of their own now
00:59:47
while we don't have the FBI profile to talk about we do have a clinical psychologist Steve Kramer who evaluates
00:59:55
sex offenders for the Utah State Prison System and back in 1995 he gave the following information saying that the
01:00:03
Killer is a quote very impulsive person one who does the first thing that comes into his head without thinking of the
01:00:11
consequences right the statement goes on to say most pedophiles are smooth operators who control their environment
01:00:18
to gain access to Children he may marry a single mother to get at her kids or befriend children at a playground Rosy's
01:00:26
killer is different from this he can't even initiate a conversation he's probably a withdrawn loner type of
01:00:34
person this was a real cowardly act should I get my profile now I spent hours and hours on my profile well I
01:00:42
would like to continue along with some information from Kenneth lanning's book and we know that Kenneth Lanning was
01:00:49
involved he was the special agent from the FBI that was involved early on in this investigation and I think this
01:00:55
gives us a possibly more complete profile picture of our offender from page 84 of his book love bombs and
01:01:03
molesters he states that most child molesters do not abduct their victims and most offenders who do abduct their
01:01:10
victims do not kill them statistics bear this out then if you fast forward to page4 Kenneth Lanning learned from BSU
01:01:21
research that the primary but not the only reason some child molesters use violence and abduction to control their
01:01:28
victims was that they lacked the interpersonal skills to do otherwise to put it rather simply here captain please
01:01:36
do what Lanning is stating after his years of expertise in his years in in working on these types of
01:01:45
crimes is that the persons that abduct and kill typically are doing this because they do not groom they do not
01:01:53
have the ability to to groom and victimize the victim over a period of time they're somebody that lacks those
01:02:01
skills what's interesting is cross referencing that with what Steve Kramer the clinical psychologist for Utah State
01:02:09
Prison System back in 95 said that this killer is very impulsive person he does the first thing that comes into his head
01:02:16
without thinking of the consequences and to me this all goes in line with our composite sketch of wet pants man who
01:02:24
was described as 16 to 17 and goes along with the experiences that we've seen when reviewing these cases here on True
01:02:31
Crime garage that this type of case fits the profile of a younger offender of a local offender likely lived in the
01:02:40
complex or very near the complex and likely did not possess the ability to drive a vehicle legally or have an
01:02:48
actual vehicle we're not just making this stuff up look at the close proximity from where the victim was
01:02:55
found to where she was abducted back in 1995 yeah and the profile I worked on for hours if not days was this
01:03:04
individual is a giant piece of [ __ ] and I'm convinced I there's just a gut feeling of mine that that this horrible
01:03:12
individual has made weird comments about this case such as I might look like the
01:03:18
sketch wouldn't that be funny those are weird comments so if you have heard somebody that has made weird comments
01:03:27
about this case turn their name into law enforcement and let them do the due diligence to rule them in or out unless
01:03:34
this individual was picked up for a burglary or something else shortly after 95 I think what we're probably dealing
01:03:42
with here like you said Captain somebody knows something that's 100% because a person that carries out this level of
01:03:49
violence a person that carries out this level of victimization is incapable of controlling themselves they will
01:03:58
have and victimize in the future likely in domestic situations where they will add violence bring violence into their
01:04:08
home against their spouse their children other loved ones so somebody out there very likely knows something remember
01:04:15
there is a reward for up to $100,000 in Rosy Topia case someone somewhere has information that can help solve this
01:04:25
homicide no fact is insignificant no details too small if you have any information please call 385 258
01:04:34
3313 that number is answered by representatives of the family and not law enforcement or you can email who
01:04:41
killed Rosie gmail.com again this is monitored by Family [Music] Representatives
01:04:55
[Music] want to thank you guys so much for joining us here in the garage and this
01:05:07
would be a great example of a case that could be shared on social media to spread the word get people talking and
01:05:14
maybe we could make a difference Colonel do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners we do Captain
01:05:20
and very fittingly so our recommended reading for this week is Lou and John Benet a legendary Lawman's quest to
01:05:28
solve a child Beauty Queen's Murder by John Wesley Anderson John Wesley Anderson himself is a former homicide
01:05:37
detective turned author after retiring from a 30-year law enforcement career and he was good friends with Lou Smith
01:05:46
and this book is about Lou Smith's investigation into the still surprisingly so still unsolved homicide
01:05:54
side of Little John Benet ramsy make sure you check out Lou and John Benet by John Wesley Anderson you can find that
01:06:02
recommendation and many more on our recommended page on our website true Crim garage.com and if you want to join
01:06:09
us live make sure you get a ticket at true Crim garage.com click on the Live Events link and that's how you can get a
01:06:17
ticket hope to see you there and until next week be good be kind and don't litter
01:06:31
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