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foreign [Music] foreign garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host
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alright let's get this party started right Captain first we have a cheers to our buddy Avery down in Springdale
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called off the Record and that is enough of the bsness and this evening we will be having a discussion with a long time
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friend of the show Melissa Lee from the victimology podcast so every buddy gather around grab a chair grab a beer
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let's talk some true crime [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] hello Melissa thank you for joining us
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in the garage this week how are you doing hey it's great to be here thanks for having me so you and I have had so
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many off the record conversations about the Delphi case and yes it's got national attention but it's something
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that is really always on my mind and I know you're always thinking about it too and both of us have a lot of thoughts
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and opinions which is just a natural fit because there's not a ton of information
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out there I thought it would be interesting if you could join me in the garage and we could talk about some of
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our thoughts and opinions regarding the unsolved double homicide case of Abigail
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Williams and Liberty German sounds good the way this conversation came about was
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you reached out to me and you said hey Nick are you listening to down the hill because I'm listening to it and it's
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fascinating and you and I have had plenty of Delphi conversations before this and I said to you yeah I said to
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you well that's weird I'm not listening to down the hill I've been listening to scene of the crime
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but they're talking Delphi as well and so what that inspired for me and for you is you then went to listen to scene of
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the crime and I listened to down the hill so now we're all caught up and here we are going to have a discussion
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of reading between the lines of what information has been released And discussing what we think could be going
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on here with the investigation itself and with what happened on that fateful day in February of 2017. so I don't know
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about you but one of the like main issues I have with this case is there's not much information out there so when
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we were given these little tidbits in both of the podcasts I felt like it was just
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a huge finding yeah and it's really been a lot of trying to read between the lines and these two podcasts had more
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information than others have True Crime garage has covered Delphi at least six episodes and countless off the Record
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episodes but it was interesting to get the real nuts and bolts of the case from these two different podcasts so let's
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just Dive Right In Here with with some of the thoughts that we wanted to discuss the first being the
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investigators they interviewed said that the video and the audio haunts him because of the reaction of one of
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the girls and we could take that a million different ways but I did want to get either what what opinions do you have of
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that or what questions does that raise for you so one of my main thought processes with this was that the
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investigator you know when he was talking about it he had said he had watched the video multiple times and it
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always bothers him the reaction of the one girl's face as she's watching what's happening to her friend so in my brain I
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was thinking okay we know this whole time it's been Libby's cell phone who was or who's been recording or who was
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recording at the time and so my thought process was okay if he's saying he's watching the face of one of
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the girls while the other girl is you know some things quote unquote happening to her
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she's watching she's watching what's happening then I would believe that they are referring to
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Libby watching what's happening to Abby here because if it was Libby's cell phone we know it was in Libby's
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possession at the time I feel like that is the most plausible explanation is that it was Libby who was
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watching what's happening to Abby yeah so we're going to have a difference of opinion here just based off and I can
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only go off of stuff that I've heard and seen and read and and you can only go off of what you've seen in red I have a
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different different opinion on this because what I've and I'm trying to think of the investigator that you're
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talking about but I do recall seeing an investigator interviewed and saying yeah the video the audio haunts
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me and I didn't think that it was as specific as because of seeing the one girl's face
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I'm not questioning that that you didn't find that somewhere I just I didn't have
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the same experience what I was able to find was that three of the family members are saying that
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they were allowed to watch the video and that was Becky Mike and Anna watched the
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video and here's where you got to take it a step further did they see the entire video or were they only showed a
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portion of it what law enforcement was willing to show them and their statements were that there was very
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little on the video that they saw that was of use to identifying the the suspect or even really knowing what was
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going on with the girls at at the time of of the video that what they're seeing what they did say that they saw or heard
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on the video was typical girl talk talking about the man on the bridge Whispering between the two and at some
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point Libby said something about a path ending and this is where I take it a bit
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a step further try to fill in the blanks and then wonder if the order of this is
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pretty concise as to what they witnessed on the video because you can almost see
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this playing out in your mind where we have typical girl talk maybe the video actually started before
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they witnessed the man on the bridge then all of a sudden hey there's somebody on the bridge
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he's alone why is he walking this fast towards us and then Whispering between the girl
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between the two as the perpetrator gets closer and as their fear heightens and then at some point we have this
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situation of Libby says something about the path ending and I think Anna's words
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were something to the effect of well where do we go now the path is ending this almost sounds to me like by this
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point he's already got them the bridge guys already got them somewhat under his control that he's directing them around
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and that's where I wonder if in fact there was some video at this point and that's what your
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investigators talking about saying one of the girls faces at this point her reaction to what's going on
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because you also wonder like if if the path does run out and now not only does he have control of us but he's taking us
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off the path doesn't it seem like the Situation's getting a little dire getting worse like not only does he is
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he threatening us and controlling our movements but he's now taking us into the woods into a place where we really
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don't want to go with this guy well now I've also heard rumors about either the video going out or the audio going out
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at some point I don't know have you heard those rumors at all I've definitely seen the rumor of the video
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going out where there is additional audio that can be heard but the the phone that was capturing the video may
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have been concealed at some point and that's really interesting because I feel like I'm a 50 50 split to whether
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the perpetrator knew of the phone at all of the existence of the phone at all because one thing we do know is that the
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phone was found somewhere near the crime scene we do not they don't tell us exactly where it was found but we do
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know that it was in fact found so that leads me to believe one of two things occurred for the bridge guy
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either he never detected Libby's cell phone never she was able to conceal it and he never came across it
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or two he may have tried to destroy it but was unsuccessful or thought he had successfully destroyed it you know
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smashed the phone and then left but there was still there was the technology was still inside the phone and able to
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show us this video and give us this audio one thing I do question though is if he
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did detect the phone if he did find the phone it's interesting to me the sophistication that goes into the
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thought of to not take it with him especially if he may have thought that there was something incriminating on the
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phone it shows that he has some general understanding of that type of Technology
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meaning had he taken her phone with him they may have been able to track him in some form using her phone I know that
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the Find My Phone app was not working on Libby's phone at the time it does show some type of sophistication
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to me that he he may have chose not to take the phone with him now I had had a thought that so from what I have heard
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as far as the crime scene which I know we'll get into in a little bit that it was not a or not an organized crime
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scene and the fact too it makes me think uh as well that her shoe was found what
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a couple feet away from where their bodies were would eventually be discovered I had always thought that the
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phone had fallen at some point and he didn't even necessarily know it was there or because I I had had that
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thought too why not try to dispose of the phone why not throw it into the creek that they were near
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you know why not try to completely get rid of it if it did have this evidence of him committing these crimes on it you
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know that kind of goes along with the theory that I'm now in belief of that I actually think that at some point they
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did try to run from him that they tried to flee him and so the information I found was that Libby one of her shoes
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was on the bridge on the monin High Bridge side of the creek and their bodies were found on the other side of
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the creek so I'm wondering now if as they are approaching this Creek area or as they're making their way
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down the hill if they tried to run toward the creek and cross the creek to get away from him Libby losing her shoe
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in the process or did the bridge guy then place it there or throw it there discard of it there for for whatever
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reason later but then that's interesting what you just brought up it could be just as simple as Libby drop the phone
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to either abandon it to to be able to run away faster or dropped it on accident or dropped it to
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conceal it so he wouldn't know that she filmed him I do think there's more on the video and audio than police are
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revealing partially also because we didn't even know it was a video until last year like they didn't release that
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until 2019 April literally a year ago yeah so a couple things that that I believe and again this is just my
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opinion in regards to the video and the Audio I do think that there is more that
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was recorded there was more that was recorded I think that probably what we have here is
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whatever else they have in addition to what they've released is of no benefit to the public to the victims or to the
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investigation meaning I don't think that we have much more of the offender of the bridge guy
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I think there's no reason for me to believe that we are not seeing the best image that they have of bridge guy what
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would be the benefit to their investigation to withhold a better image of him from the public when you've
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clearly told us time and time again for three years that you need the Public's assistance so that just doesn't ring
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true to me that there would be additional better images of the bridge guy I think that there's probably some
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additional images of the bridge guy but the one that we're seeing is the best one that they are able to provide to us
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and then in regards to the audio I think that there's definitely more audio one thing that Anna did say
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was you know gave us a brief description of the audio she could make out again we
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don't know that that law enforcement showed the family every everything that they had we just don't know that the
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family seems to think that they saw everything that law enforcement had but we just don't know in regards to the
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audio the statements I saw from from the family was that there was much more audio than there was video so that goes
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back to the idea that the phone was concealed or dropped at some point and from from filming more video
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but then on top of that if you have additional audio I think that what you probably have
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is a lot of talk between the two victims which doesn't help the the public identify the bridge guy so there's no
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need to release any of that and then on top of that if you do have additional audio from the bridge guy it
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may be to a point where he is initiating certain threats that may be even detailed threats and we know that
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they've withheld a bunch of information the cause of death they've withheld if if they were sexually assaulted how he
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gained control of them there could be details inside those threats that would be would be bad for the investigation
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because they're withholding that other information right and just to bounce off of that so the audio that
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the police did eventually release where it says guys down the hill I've actually
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seen quite a few people like try to analyze that audio and I think I actually sent you a copy of it
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as well that someone tried to clear it up so it's very apparent while looking at this from a sound point of view like
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looking at it underneath audio editing equipment you can see a definite cut in the two sections my guess is there's
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more of the offender in the audio and I agree as well that it's probably something not that should
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not be shared with the public at least right now as far as what happened with the crime whether or not he described
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what he did to the girls or went into great detail or you know something um but I do think I I just my gut's
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telling me there's more on the audio and video than what they're they're sharing
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ultimately so some information real quick that I have here in my notes sorry I'm going
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through my notes as we go through this Libby's cell phone was they did a factory reset 10 days before
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the murder this was because the phone was all boogered up with a whole bunch of unnecessary data and probably games and
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things like that that's why they were not able to use the find my phone app because a lot of the apps that were on
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her phone had not been loaded back onto the phone after this factory reset because that's what her grandmother
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Becky would have used to track her down right so then take that a step further what we have here is
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the phone was recovered at the scene we don't know where exactly but it's stated
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as found close to the scene law enforcement has confirmed that they have more audio and video and all of the
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audio they have is from the video that Libby filmed meaning there's there's not a separate recording that's Audio Only
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and their statement here from my notes Libby filmed using the standard video recording camera feature on her iPhone
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now I have a question that picture of Abby on the bridge that was taken that day
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right yes yeah so that's definitely Snapchat so correct yeah I mean well and if that's the case then that it
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was record I mean and obviously you know anyone who has a phone we know we can just press the button and it records the
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whole time that's interesting so it was Tobe lessenby who stated publicly that the crime is not on the recording and I
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believe that was his exact words the crime is not on the recording again I have to believe that means the the
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double homicide itself with the SnapChat thing first of all you're talking to the wrong guy I've
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never used Snapchat I don't know I don't even I barely even know what it is to be honest with you
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what I have here is interesting because the we do know what time that that Snapchat went out so the timing of that
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is 207 p.m that the Snapchat goes out the interesting thing there is there's no Bridge guy behind
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Abby at that time we know based off of sunlight and shadows and other information that the bridge guy is
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approaching them between 220 and 2 30 pm so shortly after that Snapchat minutes after that Snapchat we now have Bridge
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guy in pursuit of the two girls and what's fascinating and terrifying to me too is I believe that either if
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they're already recording the video or if they were inspired to then record the video
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there's somebody else on the bridge which seems haunting on its own he's by himself
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again haunting why is he walking so fast why is he approaching us so fast and the
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terrifying thing for these two girls again ages 14 and 13 years old they can clearly see a grown man approaching them
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very quickly on this rickety Old Bridge you're now left with two options you're either going to be if you let him keep
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approaching you you're either going to be in close quarters with this individual that
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you're already kind of put off of or your other option is to have to cross him on that bridge
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just that alone you're kind of you're really boxed into a corner if you're Libyan Abby here and that that
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thought there just terrifies me and I think that that thought alone explains the inspiration
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for for the for filming him be it if you were already filming something else or if you were inspired to do so because of
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the sight of him now what we also can piece together is that very likely Libby who's recording
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is already off of the bridge she's on the what I refer to as the dead end side of the bridge
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she's already off of the bridge and you can see that she at one point is filming
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Abby who's making her way toward the dead inside and then at some point they become aware of the bridge guy and then
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what happens after that we don't know we can piece together too though some point he's able to take control of
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the girls and attempt I believe he was successful moving them directing them where he wanted them to go for for a
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portion of time that he was successful with that I think at some point it it may have gone away from him so
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something I'm thinking I don't remember off the top of my head which podcast it was that mentioned this but they had
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made a comment that it was common for Abby to take pictures of random people out in
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the public you know secretively of course and like send it to people and like oh that's your boyfriend joking
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right which is a total teenage girl thing to do speaking as once being a teenage girl so it almost makes me
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wonder if that's what the ultimate like cause of the videoing was and we know that the videos the SnapChat thing is
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from that day one because it was posted that day but on top of that Abby that was her first time crossing
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the bridge to my knowledge from everything I've heard that that was the first time she crossed the bridge so
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it's almost like we have we have her her best friend memorializing that event with that
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Snapchat post and then we have okay whole different reason whole different action now we got
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Bridge guy we got video of bridge guy which we know was recorded using the standard video recording camera feature
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on her iPhone the other interesting thing too we talked about the timing of everything that the bridge guy was on
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the bridge between 220 and 2 30 roughly the spot where he is recorded is stated by and I can't recall I'm going off a
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memory here if he's the former prosecutor or current prosecutor I'm guessing he's the former Robert Ives he
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says the image of the bridge guy that we have seen publicly was recorded at a great distance
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and based off of the markings on the bridge we're able to determine that the suspect
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at that point is approximately 60 feet from the end of the bridge and that bridge from what I've seen
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the locals say takes about six minutes to cross this goes back to a theory that that I threw out there when
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we covered it on True Crime garage and I'm still of this Theory that he was approaching them and he was
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approaching them rather quickly that he was moving across that bridge at a faster than normal rate and that might
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have been something that tipped them off why would he go that fast that it almost
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feels like to me that the two new or were suspicious of his movements believing at some point
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he's either going to approach us or he might be after us [Music] if there is something interfering with
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betterhelp.com garage foreign [Music] Robert Ives he is the one that said that several
00:27:09
things about the crime scene were odd and I found this interesting and I do know a little bit of the production
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between the two podcasts scene of the crime was was the production was completed on that
00:27:23
before down the hill was completed they both came out roughly about the same time but what I found
00:27:29
interesting was the contrast between the two within that of Robert Ives statements where on scene of the crime
00:27:37
he says there were several things about the crime scene that were odd and it's almost like he it's almost like loose
00:27:45
lips sink ships once the toothpaste is out of the tube you can't put it back in but he tries to walk it back a little
00:27:52
bit like you know there there are there are always odd things about a murder scene
00:27:58
it felt a little telling like no maybe the maybe this crime scene has things about it that are more strange than the
00:28:07
typical crime scene and then later on down the hill he's now referring to these rather than odd things as
00:28:17
signatures and it's almost like he was schooled to to start using the word signature or if it maybe it was a
00:28:26
theatrics thing I don't know but I cannot shake either of those statements I cannot get them out of my head I
00:28:34
cannot quit circling round and round about what they could mean and you and I touched upon that a little bit in our
00:28:41
conversations I don't know take me into your thoughts when you hear somebody that close to the case say a statement
00:28:49
like that I can totally agree with that the odd crime scene comment has stuck with me this entire time since it was
00:28:56
set um because you know obviously your mind starts racing like okay what in the heck
00:29:01
could that mean and you know no no crime scene is a good crime scene you know like it's to say that it's odd
00:29:10
really makes me think that so and also too um the First Responders they had made a
00:29:18
comment too in the podcast I think it was down the hill that they all had to decompress
00:29:24
that evening so when I hear it was an odd crime scene they had to decompress that evening
00:29:30
which of course you know the murder of two children that is not an easy thing to deal with as a first responder or
00:29:37
investigator that is not a good thing that never sits well but for to make a point to say that
00:29:45
almost all of the people involved all of the First Responders involved had to decompress that evening because that was
00:29:52
the like like severeness of the crimes exactly exactly which I mean you know we hear that First
00:30:01
Responders need to decompress when they see some really messed up things which rightfully so
00:30:08
then the mentioning of the signatures so the second I heard that I was like okay
00:30:14
that's really interesting to hear that there are signatures involved in the case
00:30:20
and to know about all the different rumors that are circulating around it immediately made me think that there
00:30:27
might be some value to some of those rumors you know I mean there were people there at the crime scene
00:30:34
the person who found them was a family member of Libby's I believe for them to say their signatures I know you and I
00:30:42
have kind of discussed this what the difference between a signature and an MO is right
00:30:47
so it it's it just like hmm I mean should we go into the rumors or well yeah I think we should because
00:30:56
part of this that I'm hoping to achieve with our discussion here today is some of the old rumors that we're
00:31:04
circling around they've made their way back again and I think it's because of the two
00:31:10
podcasts which is strange to me because they were so complete and concise about the
00:31:17
information that they were putting out but again it's always going to go back to the law enforcement has not released
00:31:22
much information so then that that only inspires the rumor mill but I think that
00:31:28
some of the some of the rumors are one they're just negative toward the victims negative toward the families and they
00:31:37
hold no Truth at all so not only am I hoping that our discussion has some some interesting opinions and some
00:31:44
interesting takes and theories on what might have actually happened but also to to squash some of those rumors that are
00:31:53
showing their ugly face again so I think the other interesting thing here to keep
00:31:58
in mind and correct me if I'm wrong Melissa but Robert Ives was pressed they're like
00:32:05
what do you mean by signatures can you tell us what they were and he's of course he's like no I cannot tell you
00:32:10
what they were I believe he was pressed to say well how many signatures or how many odd things are off things would you
00:32:20
say that you saw at this crime scene and I believe his exact words were two or three
00:32:26
I feel like three feels like more familiar to me to the point where I wonder if if he did say three but two or
00:32:33
three is what I've been kind of working off of based off of his statements if I'm remembering it and I think too he
00:32:39
says at least two or three at least stuck with me I mean I feel like that leaves room now for like tons of
00:32:48
speculation because it's like what else was at that crime scene so um I know some of the like most
00:32:54
popular theories are um and what we I can also mention that Facebook message that I had found so
00:33:00
there's a screenshot that's been circulating around by the person who actually found the girls
00:33:06
um who saw the shoe first looked up ended up finding them so there's a Facebook message messenger
00:33:14
picture going around stating that Libby was nearly decapitated and that it was obviously personal
00:33:23
towards her which is an interesting you know thing to say especially if they did
00:33:29
not know the person well and again this is not a the person that's giving that opinion that they believe it to be
00:33:37
personal is not an accident no can we agree on that yeah and should we take it a step
00:33:43
further and question the the validity of that screenshot oh I I would say yes well not only that but I think because
00:33:53
that screenshot has circulated around this person is now a favorite suspect of many online sleuthors which is kind of
00:34:02
interesting but um just to roll off of that though I've heard many rumors and I'm not sure
00:34:08
if you've heard the same rumors that Libby had to wear a scarf at the funeral yeah that's been a pretty common one to
00:34:15
go around and actually I've seen it said that both were wearing scarves I've seen
00:34:21
that as well I I mean I don't know if that's true obviously I was was not there and
00:34:29
um I don't know if that's true but I will tell you this I am of the belief and I'm basing this off of things that
00:34:34
I've seen and heard in a lot of it mind you is second and third hand but I'm hearing this from
00:34:40
and seeing this from some trusting from some trusting persons and sources and this is not Insider information this
00:34:49
is my opinion I believe that the that it was a bladed weapon that was used in the
00:34:58
in the attack of of the girls I think that it was a gun that was used to control them and to move them but
00:35:06
because of how loud a gun is when it came time to you know it that it was a bladed weapon that was used for that
00:35:15
portion of the of the crime now that's interesting I don't know that I want to take any further than that
00:35:21
um as far as what the injuries could be and then you take it a step further and you say well
00:35:28
and you bring up a really good thought it's it's this layperson's opinion that it was personal based upon the injuries
00:35:38
they saw or may have seen that it was personal against you said Libby yes yeah here's
00:35:46
where I take that a step further and and you said well that's interesting especially if they didn't know them it's
00:35:52
almost implying that the the victim and the offender knew one another but we've seen plenty of crimes we've seen plenty
00:36:00
of murders where it it appears to be personal in nature but they didn't know each other and that
00:36:08
can happen for a multitude of reasons one did Libby present certain problems to the offender
00:36:16
and really pissed the guy off or did he or did she really fight him fight back in a good strong way and it
00:36:25
became personal for him the other thing too that people often point out is overkill well the the
00:36:33
offender must have known the victim because of the overkill that we see at the scene or on the victim or the
00:36:40
overkill that's um presumed to be at the scene since we don't know exactly yeah you know looking
00:36:48
at other cases not this case but there were plenty of Ted Bundy's victims that had the appearance of Overkill because
00:36:58
that's how he preferred to kill the victim that's how he naturally attacked these victims and he didn't know any of
00:37:05
them where there's Overkill does not necessarily have to mean that the offender knows the victim or has a a
00:37:12
specific hate for that victim that they want to destroy because that's what you see with Overkill you often say
00:37:20
um to kill somebody is to take them away to to end their lives but the overkill is the emotion is that they want to
00:37:28
destroy that person you don't necessarily have to know them to have that hate the victim could be a
00:37:34
surrogate look which is could represent something else it's it's seen a lot it could in its with some of these killers
00:37:41
serial killers in particular some of them it's just a a general hatred for women in general and and that all that
00:37:50
means is that for Overkill to be present is that the victim them as a woman I don't know I've not heard rumors of of
00:37:58
Overkill here with Delphi but I have heard and seen the rumors of it possibly being personal with in regards
00:38:07
to Libby I think that that means something that that doesn't necessarily mean that
00:38:14
they were that they the perpetrator knew either one of the victims I think this was a stranger abduction and attack and
00:38:22
I think that's part of the reason why the investigation has been so difficult and I think that it became it may have
00:38:30
become personal for the killer so this is um something I've gone back and forth on a lot
00:38:37
let me ask your opinion do you think that the girls were killed at the scene we have a vague statement from law
00:38:44
enforcement that would lead us or lead me to believe that their statement is they were killed where they were found
00:38:51
and people have taken that you can take that a million different ways where they've taken off someplace else and
00:38:58
then returned to the general area and killed there I don't think any of that went down I think that this the general
00:39:05
statement of they were killed where they were found and they would have evidence
00:39:09
to prove that to them to law enforcement it wouldn't be very hard for them to figure that out
00:39:15
but I think that you have to take into account a few different things all of these crimes and anytime you have a
00:39:20
murder especially with a double homicide you have you have multiple crimes that happen during the commission from the
00:39:26
start to finish of this and we know that they were abducted at some point because
00:39:29
they were moved they were under his control and moved somewhere that they would not want to be so that is the
00:39:36
definition of being abducted and then they are killed what we have here to me is there's not a lot of time that goes
00:39:45
by from the time that he Bridge guy first comes on the scene to the girls to the time when they're probably when it's
00:39:53
probably all over with and he's in the process of fleeing the area we have law enforcement statements that say and
00:40:00
again there's they're speculating as well because until we catch the guy we just don't know but they're saying that
00:40:06
on their press releases with the description of the bridge guy and images of the bridge guy they state that it's
00:40:14
believed he left the area area by 5 PM but could have still been there in the general area when the family started
00:40:21
searching for the girls the other difficult thing here which is weird about the phone with going back to
00:40:28
Libby's phone is we have Derek who was there to pick them up he calls Libby's phone at 3 11 that afternoon because he
00:40:37
can't find the girls now a couple tricky things here she doesn't pick up the phone you could take
00:40:43
that one of two ways whatever happened already happened or by 311 or she's under the control of bridge guy or has
00:40:52
dropped the phone by that time there's also some interesting speculation that we know to be true is
00:41:00
with the with the camera feature that she was using to record the video if you have an incoming call on that
00:41:09
iPhone that she had it would it would stop the recording is that what stopped the recording eventually the phone goes
00:41:16
dead eventually that you know it's going to to voicemail at some point then you take it a step further
00:41:23
if they were afraid enough to record video why not just call 9-1-1 right you know like right you gotta think that may
00:41:31
have been an option I'm sure that there's some places that your phone just won't work but why was that option not
00:41:38
used or and here's a little safety tip for anybody out there if you're approached by somebody that
00:41:45
that they know they're aware that you saw them already and they're trying to abduct you at the
00:41:53
very least lie to them and tell them you've already called 9-1-1 even if you feel like you can't in that
00:41:58
very moment tell them that you've already called yeah can't hurt by that point no I mean shoot
00:42:05
yeah and it's just making me think like at what point were they under his control
00:42:12
at what point did they feel unsafe what was it during the video was it after the video did it and I think
00:42:19
that's a really interesting point too that if I had to guess that's most likely how the video stopped was
00:42:25
probably the call coming in from her father and that's just my opinion obviously but
00:42:30
yeah no it just makes me wonder at what point they knew they were in trouble and
00:42:37
why they didn't feel comfortable I mean unless he had had a weapon on them at that point yeah which is true I I think
00:42:43
I mean and you got to think too it's very difficult to handle two victims at one time even if you're a man
00:42:50
like into small smaller teenage girls um and I want to say too they don't think that the murderer is a very tall
00:42:59
large person they think he's on the shorter side and what did they say I thought I'd heard like five nine to five
00:43:06
eleven but I could be wrong don't quote me on that I'm gonna pull it up I I have
00:43:10
the FBI seeking information flyer here somewhere five six to five ten yeah I mean that's a short guy and they put him
00:43:19
at 180 to 200 pounds which is interesting because that's from the the newest information because the old
00:43:28
information had him about 20 pounds heavier but the same height yeah I mean how How could somebody of
00:43:36
that stature and I want to say Libby was taller for her age I believe she would probably would have been close
00:43:43
to that height and I know Abby was a little bit smaller but to be able to control two victims at
00:43:49
one time that is not an easy thing to do by any means that's what you need the gun exactly or some weapon
00:43:58
um right and this is going back to the statement that Doug Carter stated Kelsey said as well they both are of the belief
00:44:05
that the the bridge guy that wasn't his first time Crossing that bridge they both
00:44:13
they're saying anyone that has walked that bridge before would understand that and I've never walked the bridge so I
00:44:20
don't know but I'm going to believe them with that statement which is interesting
00:44:24
meaning he's either from the area or currently lives in the general area or at least has been to that location
00:44:32
a time or two before I take it a step further is if you a map of the general area is so key for
00:44:40
anybody that's trying to look into this case and do a little bit of their own web sleuthing a little bit of their own
00:44:46
armchair detective work here because if you look at the way that that whole situation is laid out if he's familiar
00:44:54
with the area if he this is where you gotta put yourself in the mind of the killer of the perpetrator
00:45:01
he chose that area he didn't just end up there by accident that day he chose that
00:45:07
area and if we're if we're to believe that he used a gun to control them if we if he brought weapons with him to the
00:45:14
scene there's every indication that he went there and he's using this as some type of hunting ground now
00:45:22
he is using that bridge as a strategy he knows that once somebody gets more than halfway across that bridge
00:45:36
that either he can go to the other side of the bridge and pin them down or they at the very least have to pass
00:45:44
him on that bridge as they're coming back trying to get to to the opposite side I think he was looking for a
00:45:51
certain type of victim and I think he was looking for them to put themself in a state of vulnerability and the bridge
00:45:58
is what caused them to be vulnerable if he's up on a bridge with them right a bridge is not stable like and if you
00:46:07
look at pictures of this bridge it is an Old Bridge um yeah so I mean you gotta think I mean
00:46:12
if all it would take is one of them to push him off and it's like even if you have a weapon on them it's still a very
00:46:19
risky area to try to take control of two teenage girls in part I think not only is he chasing after them but I think
00:46:29
that's why I believe him to be moving so quickly across the bridge and there's a lot of other people that
00:46:35
share that opinion is that he wants to catch them at that state of being vulnerable and that that
00:46:42
area for him is getting them on the dead end side of the bridge and I think that I think that as fast as
00:46:49
they saw him moving is what inspired the the fear that that sent up the red flags about there's something
00:46:57
not right with this guy let's go back to our our takes on the the crime scene itself and they're being at least two or
00:47:06
three signatures or at least two or three things that were off or odd about the scene according to Robert Ives take that
00:47:14
for what it is but but look at the surface of what we do know and see if any of the things that we already know
00:47:22
could apply to that statement one thing that we do know is multiple victims at one time is a rare it's a
00:47:31
rare thing so is Robert Ives lumping in the fact that we know that there are two victims
00:47:38
as being a signature or something that was off or odd and now are we down to just two things that we have to try to
00:47:45
decipher what was was offer on and you know I've I've heard theories that a lot of people believe this was the first
00:47:52
time this suspect or perpetrator had killed somebody I I I'm not sure how people have drawn
00:48:00
that conclusion being we know so little about the crime itself if it were his first time offending
00:48:06
to initially take on two victims at once and like you would how you had said it's
00:48:12
it's rare and it's not a common thing and it makes me think that somebody who is just you know starting to kill
00:48:23
would not necessarily go straight away for two teenagers yeah it seems like a more difficult situation the anytime you
00:48:30
increase your level of risk you're increasing increasing your level of risk of getting caught and these guys that
00:48:40
fantasize about violence that fantasize about abduction or killing they want to be successful in what it is
00:48:48
that they set out to do so they do not want to increase the risk of getting caught number one but they also don't
00:48:53
want to increase the risk of not being successful in living out their fantasy their violent fantasy
00:49:01
the thing that gets difficult there is you have to because we don't know who Bridge guy is
00:49:07
we do not know what his fantasy was what his intention was what his plan was is there a chance that he was unaware
00:49:18
until it was too late that he was approaching two people instead of just one I think that's on the Slimmer side of of
00:49:27
possibilities I think it's very likely that he knew he was approaching too because I keep going back to that he's
00:49:34
looking for not only a certain type of victim but a victim that puts themselves in a in a certain spot
00:49:40
in that that state of being vulnerable I don't think that two victims was a signature but I think there's a purpose
00:49:50
for it I think there's a reason behind it why he chose to rather than one I or maybe the number
00:49:59
is not so much important but the people that he saw the targets that he saw I think there's reasoning behind that like
00:50:06
maybe he set his eyes on one of the girls and the other one was collateral damage that's always a thought process
00:50:12
that's a strong possibility yeah the other strong possibility is were these the first two
00:50:18
targets that he saw that didn't contain a male or was this the smallest group of people
00:50:24
that he saw I have some belief and I don't know for certain but there are some statements
00:50:32
and some witness reports eyewitness reports who people that were in the area around this time of day
00:50:40
where it seems to me like he may have had the opportunity to go after a single female
00:50:49
a woman or a or a younger lady by themselves now we don't know that we can't say for
00:50:57
certain that he actually saw that Target and decided to pass on it but there seems to be enough evidence
00:51:05
out there to me that that is a possibility that he that he didn't choose that Target for some reason so
00:51:10
then that makes me go back to well maybe it's it's either this type of victim the number of targets that was important
00:51:19
enough for him to move in and act because one thing we do know is we don't have anybody coming forward saying oh I
00:51:25
was attacked or approached by some weird guy on this day around this time that didn't happen so it almost appears like
00:51:34
whoever he first set out to go after he he did he actually went after them there's also zero this is the one rumor
00:51:44
that I would love to squash right here there is zero evidence or zero reason to believe we cannot say for certain
00:51:51
but there's zero evidence to suggest that he went there targeting one or both of these girls specifically that he knew
00:52:00
that they would be there if he went there for the purpose of going after one or both of them so
00:52:06
we we can state that for several reasons one it was kind of a last minute trip that they went out there
00:52:14
and two this isn't like a super secluded place this is a place that a lot of people went to to go hiking especially
00:52:22
uh younger teenagers to hang out or hike the trails which makes me wonder if he if he knew the bridge and he knew
00:52:30
that area well enough he would have known the type of people that would have ventured to go there especially during
00:52:36
the middle of the day of a on a work week and that also tells me maybe he was looking for that type of victim your
00:52:44
show's called victimology so I don't have to explain to you there there is these perpetrators have uh have a victim
00:52:51
type often and be if they're a Serial offender or not a one-off if you're going to try to profile the offender
00:53:00
it's as important to profile the victim and as important to profile the area and
00:53:06
just to bounce off of that so one really huge issue with the information we know about this
00:53:15
case is and I think this is the reason why people are so upset that it has not been solved and
00:53:21
that we don't know more is because we don't know what the motivation was behind the crime
00:53:27
they have never said if it was sexually motivated if it was a rage killing if it
00:53:32
was a mission kill they have never ever clarified on their thought process on that so we don't know if the ultimate
00:53:40
goal was to have some sort of sexual fantasy fulfilled by the girl's death deaths
00:53:47
so and I know um there's a lot of theories out there that a lot of weird post-mortem activity had happened and I
00:53:53
really don't hold a lot of I don't think they hold much water let's put it that way well again that goes
00:54:01
back to if that that means he has to stay there longer longer every every weird post-mortem activity that
00:54:12
that he's supposed to have done means he's there longer at the scene and again increasing his risk level of
00:54:22
getting caught or being seen with the victims after the fact and I I do think that there was some stuff
00:54:30
done and I think that that is really where I want to mesh two statements together where we have Robert Ives who
00:54:38
says there were two or three signatures at least two or three signatures we also
00:54:43
have Doug Carter the spokesperson for and I know that's not his proper title but he's done he's
00:54:49
The Upfront one he is the the face and the voice of the press conferences coming out of the Indiana State Police
00:54:58
his statement when he was addressing the killer you know and he got real personal
00:55:03
with his statements and I loved that I loved the aggressiveness of his statements and addressing the killer
00:55:10
directly in some of those press conferences but one of his statements was he says something like I can promise
00:55:16
you they are not the way that you left them that day yeah and that to me does tell me that there
00:55:26
was there was some postmortem activity that was that were actions by the Killer and I
00:55:35
almost feel like that is an attempt to slap the killer in the face because we see this with a lot of these guys
00:55:44
they have fantasies leading up to the to the commission of these types of crimes
00:55:48
and then they have fantasies after the fact and some of them want to relive what took place when they committed some
00:55:57
of these crimes to me that's almost like we know you did some things to these to the victims or
00:56:04
to the area it's not that way today so get it out of your head quit fantasizing about it what
00:56:11
what you think that you created no longer exist to me that points out one of the most common
00:56:18
signatures that you will find out there is the posing of a victim so I feel like to me meshing Carter's
00:56:28
statement with Robert eyes statement I feel like posing one or both of the victims is probably I would put that at
00:56:38
a high probability I would also think that there's probably some type of covering of the victims
00:56:45
be it with sticks leaves debris or all of the above because one thing we do know is we have statements from The
00:56:53
Searchers that say you know we were in that very general area the night before and we didn't find them
00:56:59
we found them the next day during daylight and then that has spread the bad rumor that the bodies were moved or
00:57:07
the victims were were taken away from the scene and then brought back at some point
00:57:13
I think people are over analyzing that I think it's just as simple as it was dark
00:57:18
out right and they didn't and there may have been some camouflage involved be it leaves
00:57:26
sticks debris covering of the bodies that prevented them from finding them that night under the cover of Darkness
00:57:34
the other thing we have to factor in there too Melissa is keep in mind at night you believe you're looking for two girls
00:57:42
who are alive and well that's a much different thing and I I still think they the Searchers believe that they were
00:57:50
looking for two girls that were alive and well the next day but now that the fear level has increased for the
00:57:55
Searchers because the time that has expired but that night you're not you're looking in a different way you're out in
00:58:04
the dark you're calling the girls names hoping to hear them respond to your voice
00:58:09
and when you don't get that you kind of quickly move on in that situation you're
00:58:14
hoping to cover as much ground as possible we just reviewed a case on True Crime garage it was the Evansdale
00:58:20
murders where the two victims were found in a remote location and it was such a remote
00:58:26
dense area that the the officer said had these Hunters just been five feet or so in a different direction they
00:58:38
would have never have seen the bodies so I I binding them that night means anything
00:58:44
other than they didn't find them right they were probably there the whole time but then
00:58:50
it also takes you a step further to go okay well what was the signature were they posed were they covered were they
00:58:56
bought was it both one of the other theories I had heard and I really don't think there's much to it
00:59:03
um is that the girls were wearing each other's clothes the reason I don't think that's the case because the person who
00:59:09
actually found the bodies um I believe the way it happened is he saw the shoe on the ground looked at the
00:59:17
shoe began to look up and ended up seeing Libby in her tie-dye shirt I don't think
00:59:23
that they were necessarily dressed in each other's clothing I thought that was kind of
00:59:29
an iffy one the posing though I totally could see some some form of that and also too I'd also
00:59:36
heard a rumor that um either both of them were nude or one but um the wearing each other's clothing
00:59:42
I really don't think that's the case the rumor I heard was that one of them was completely clothed or found in all
00:59:52
the clothing that they were last wearing and that one of them might have been somewhat undressed but not completely
00:59:59
nude and again that's just the rumor I heard I think this whole thing with them being in each other's clothing
01:00:04
is probably a rumor that just started at the very local level and grew legs for some reason
01:00:13
it doesn't seem like a likely scenario because you're going to have to if you're the perpetrator you're going to
01:00:20
have to have them carry out that act for you or you're going to have to strip them and redress them it's again
01:00:28
it's like a whole lot of extra unnecessary things going on and usually there is a very
01:00:37
usually there's a very simple explanation to what happened and why the issue being for us on the outside
01:00:45
trying to look in one we don't have much information to work off of but two we also don't know
01:00:53
as you pointed out the mo or the intentions of the perpetrator it's hard to profile him and profile his actions
01:01:02
and what he did or may have done that day because we don't know what what the intent was I I keep seeing
01:01:11
a scene where his intentions were to do something different and it went sideways at some
01:01:17
point and then he he attacked and killed the girls either out of necessity or out of anger and I know it
01:01:26
seems like a very simple explanation but I to me that's there seems to be some information out
01:01:33
there that might point to that the the shoe on the other side of the water and then if you're we know he's directing
01:01:40
them we we know that 100 percent because we have the one line of down the hill he's telling them go down the hill he's
01:01:50
not saying look there's a deer where is it down that that Hill no he's directing
01:01:54
them to go where he wants them to go he's moving these people along and why is he moving them where is he taking
01:02:04
them what is his intention with that and then take I take it a step further why if if they were killed where they were
01:02:12
found I I have to question that he didn't direct them to that area why would he take them why would he
01:02:20
choose to take them across the water when he didn't have to yeah and you know he could have taken among dry land
01:02:26
elsewhere yeah the water seems like an added an added risk level one to end just kind of a dumb move
01:02:36
if if he were smart enough and look I'm giving him a lot of credit when I say some of these things and and I and I
01:02:43
know that I'm just speculating on a lot but if he was smart enough to choose a victim because they put themselves on
01:02:49
the dead end side of the bridge that's a tactical move why would he then do something as stupid as to lead them
01:02:55
across the water when there's so much other dry land right in the immediate area that you
01:03:02
could have just directed them that's where I almost wonder did they did they decide to make
01:03:07
a run for it at some point or did he lose control of the situation they fled yeah that's that is one of the things
01:03:13
that opt-in questioned so the thing that always comes to my mind is the shoe that
01:03:18
was left right did that fall off while she was fleeing and running or did that come off because the perp was dragging
01:03:26
her or she's or she's trying to run full speed across across the water I mean we've all done that in your shoes
01:03:33
immediately become soaked and super heavy and you can you can easily slip out of one of the shoes in regards to
01:03:39
the clothing thing we do have statements from law enforcement that there was some
01:03:44
clothing that was found under or near the bridge so this would be kind of Downstream from where the bodies were
01:03:52
found the issue being is we don't have confirmation that it belonged to the victims or that it has anything to do
01:04:00
with the crime at all and then you have to wonder if it did belong to the victims did the killer
01:04:06
place them there for whatever reason or to like mislead them yeah my question is
01:04:13
depending on the type of crime committed I mean if a knife were involved right there would be blood
01:04:22
this person would most likely have blood all over themselves and would draw attention to themselves trying to leave
01:04:29
the area yeah so I mean unless those clothes underneath belong to the killer like he
01:04:35
had stashed something somewhere or you know he knew he was going to commit a crime that day and tried to plan to the
01:04:41
best of his ability or he left some of his items behind that were covered in blood
01:04:47
that's interesting too because one of the statements is that there was so much evidence left at the scene
01:04:53
so you have to wonder do they believe or do they know that he left some of his belongings there
01:05:00
and he does appear to be overdressed when he's on the bridge and one thing that I've come across many times with
01:05:07
people that do like they try to sneak into a home and steal things or break into a home and steal things that they
01:05:14
will often if they're if they're people that are experienced at doing this they will often wear multiple shirts
01:05:22
and maybe even multiple head coverings or at least one because they know that if they if anybody sees them if they're
01:05:31
if somebody spots them either in the house or fleeing the scene oh we gotta we got a male black shirt jeans
01:05:41
well if he sheds if in the in the process of fleeing the area if he sheds his black shirt now he's wearing instead
01:05:48
of a black sweatshirt he's wearing a white T-shirt you you might you might overlook him
01:05:53
when you see him again and so you have to wonder is he wearing extra clothing for
01:06:00
to protect his person or because he plans on leaving some of it at the scene if it does in fact get bloody so when
01:06:08
you said so much evidence at the scene um it made me think so a lot of times with criminals you know they're
01:06:14
obviously categorized as organized or disorganized when they leave evidence at a scene that is indicative of a
01:06:22
disorganized Criminal but if he were to have planned to leave evidence at the scene
01:06:29
it completely switches the mo on its head to where the perp is now an organized criminal which is really kind of
01:06:37
interesting and it you know it's like if we knew more we could probably figure it
01:06:42
out but unfortunately or at least share what the police know with the way that I
01:06:47
think this attack went down I think we're dealing with and you can't have a mixed a mixed offender as well that
01:06:54
shows signs of both organized and disorganized but I feel to me like with the planning that I believe was in play
01:07:01
here I believe we're dealing with an organized individual now did things get go sideways on him and his plan got
01:07:09
thrown out the window completely and it just got out of control that's a possibility I also wonder though too
01:07:15
with the word the vague word of evidence that doesn't have to necessarily mean that it's evidence against the
01:07:20
perpetrator it may just be evidence that there are things that the crime scene that tell them more exactly what
01:07:28
happened and how things went down and it doesn't really point to who committed it
01:07:34
it's just they can connect the dots and know kind of the general timeline and what took place when
01:07:42
but then on top of that you also have to wonder this being out in the open in a public place does some of that evidence
01:07:49
quote unquote evidence some of the stuff that you're collecting at the scene is it just just debris just things that
01:07:54
have been left by other people at other times and it has nothing to do with the case at all you and I talked a lot about
01:08:00
Amy I was just going to say that yup yup yeah they found her off the side of the
01:08:04
road they collected every piece of debris that they could find up and down that stretch of road and we have to
01:08:11
believe very little that little of it actually had to do with the crime at all when they say evidence you also wonder
01:08:16
does does that just mean we found all this stuff and we have to we have to go through it piece by piece
01:08:22
and try to determine if it if it means anything or not and you know that area too that they were found is technically
01:08:30
the property of somebody who lives farther towards like it's like the back end of somebody's property is where they
01:08:36
were found right Ron Logan yes thank you which is interesting in itself because they are approached we know they are
01:08:42
approached on on these Scenic Trails on these you know public land let's say and
01:08:49
then later found on this private land but yeah they they butt up to one another but I've I found that
01:08:54
interesting too and that's a question that comes up often too where people go well why didn't they scream and I I mean
01:09:01
I look at the location of where they were found eventually and where they were abducted and I go well
01:09:06
they may have and they just nobody heard them or the screams were so far off in the distance that
01:09:13
the people that heard them didn't know they were hearing screams right if you want to go like
01:09:21
soup super down into it down into the the weeds with me real quick on what what I think happened here I think the
01:09:30
pro a big problem with this case is that whatever he planned on doing it didn't it didn't work out it's that's not what
01:09:38
took place I think he was able to take control and have control for a certain amount of time and going back to the
01:09:44
theory of why take them across the water when there was so much other dry land that you could
01:09:50
Traverse with with your victims as you are directing them where to go part of the whole thing about blood on his
01:09:58
person did he plan for that I think he did plan for that but I think his plan for that was that he was going
01:10:05
to be leaving the area in a location where he didn't think he was going to be seen
01:10:11
so that might have just been good enough for him to not have to to put other things into
01:10:18
play there to to avoid that being spotted covered in blood one thing that's weird
01:10:26
is we have statements from local law enforcement that said that they did a cell they subpoenaed cell phone records
01:10:35
within a five mile radius of that day within the time of question so anyone whose cell phone pinged in that location
01:10:43
was contacted and questioned by police that's their words contacted and questioned by police I have to believe
01:10:49
that that involves a face-to-face conversation where you can see this guy especially where you think that you can
01:10:55
see him or make out his features from from the video that we have of him on the bridge
01:11:02
so that brings a whole nother thing into play here where and they stated that they looked
01:11:10
particularly hard at anyone who was new in the area or who was in the area of the bridge for several hours on that day
01:11:19
so they did what I call like a data dump and I've heard of this type of investigation tactic and
01:11:26
other investigations I also know that it it is rather difficult to to pull this off
01:11:34
this you know what they call data dump but it seems like they did either successfully or attempted to
01:11:42
so if if they were successful with it you have to take it a step further and go well
01:11:48
does that mean he was he was organized enough and sophisticated enough to not bring
01:11:55
his cell phone with him during his time at the monan High Bridge that day yeah I think I'm leaning more
01:12:02
towards that he did not have a cell phone on him yeah that's that's definitely seems
01:12:09
right either he's a dinosaur and just doesn't own one or he made a he made an a conscious effort to not bring it with
01:12:18
him they've also said that they don't know for certain if he took a vehicle you know if he drove a vehicle there and
01:12:27
left one there and fled in a vehicle or if he walked to this area I find it interesting I personally think that he
01:12:36
drove to the area but then that creates a whole different set of problems for the perpetrator of going undetected but
01:12:44
if he did drive to the area with this data dump investigation it makes me believe he didn't even leave
01:12:54
his his phone in his vehicle that it was just not a part of the plan at all it was purposely left out
01:13:01
and that's where you know I go back into the weeds and I say I think he was trying to direct them to a vehicle oh I
01:13:08
I don't think 100 I agree yeah I don't think that he was I don't think that it went down the way that he wanted it to
01:13:15
go down and that is a a big uh Kudos and thank you to the to Abby and Libby they
01:13:25
were you know we we have people on record saying that Libby was a hero because she filmed the bridge guy we
01:13:34
also have Mike Patty on record saying that you know Abby was a hero as well because the two neither one of them left
01:13:42
each other they they wouldn't have left each other they were best friends till the end
01:13:47
and then I take it a step further and say they're both Heroes because they fought back they whatever this guy
01:13:53
wanted to happen it didn't go down the way that he wanted it to that has led to evidence against him
01:14:00
that we will be able to use against him someday so let's talk about the connection between serial
01:14:08
killers and signatures so we know that law enforcement use terms like Mo and signatures to
01:14:15
determine how someone commits a crime and why they commit a crime or what their you know thought process is
01:14:21
so the signature for law enforcement to state that there are signatures available
01:14:30
it most likely points to the fact that they believe this person has offended before or will offend again
01:14:38
there's if it were a one-time crime there would be no need to even mention the signatures
01:14:46
that were there right because the signature is mostly wrapped up in the fantasy of committing this crime so
01:14:52
they've thought about they fantasize about committing this type of crime before and likely still fantasize about
01:14:59
committing this type of crime again and the signature is required by the fantasy
01:15:04
and not necessarily required by the commission of the crime itself right and if it did not go his way
01:15:13
it's very possible that the two girls were killed out of Rage because they did not follow his commands and he ended up
01:15:21
still performing some type of signature that could eventually be connected to his other crimes or future crimes
01:15:29
so I I think that's very telling by them stating there are signatures that they've noticed in the crime and I
01:15:38
too I had written down as well they used the term red flags as well so I I just really in my gut and I've
01:15:47
I've actually consulted a couple different Professionals in the field and I asked them why would
01:15:53
law enforcement state that there are signatures in a crime if they think it's a one-time offender and the answer is
01:16:01
they don't they do not think it's a one-time offender so you know take take everything with a grain of salt but
01:16:10
I think they're by saying just this little statement they're saying a whole lot with it there
01:16:18
are some suspects that are known to the public and even their the Wikipedia page
01:16:23
has four or five listed there do you like any of those suspects we don't need to go through each one but are there any
01:16:30
of those suspects that you like and if so why and if if you don't like any of them
01:16:37
what are your thoughts or suspicions on who this guy could be just looking at the crime itself I've always thought
01:16:45
it's some type of a truck driver some type of a delivery driver something like that to where there could have been a
01:16:52
vehicle stashed somewhere and it would have not it would not have raised red flags in the area
01:16:58
um and you know if that were the ultimate goal to get the girls there that would make sense because that's his
01:17:03
domain that's his area that's his property so that being said fairly recently I want to say close to
01:17:14
the beginning of the year there was actually I'm in a couple of the um I'm on a couple of the Facebook
01:17:22
groups about the Delphi case just to watch to see what people are saying most things I don't take
01:17:29
completely seriously um just because again too it's all speculation you know all of this is
01:17:35
speculation but as of late there was actually a man who came onto the group claiming he believes that his brother
01:17:45
committed the crime I believe this person is already in prison So currently he's overweight about the
01:17:55
same height somewhere in the same range as what they had originally said at the time he would have been much
01:18:01
thinner and another thing too we forgot to mention is about the Gate of the person
01:18:07
on the bridge so I I've seen a lot of arguments as far as whether or not this person is walking
01:18:13
very particularly because it's unstable or is it because they have some sort of a limp this specific person is from the
01:18:23
area was a truck driver and has a limp he had had knee surgery or something like that
01:18:30
so at the time he would have been about the same size as the suspect's dimensions so very lightweight on the
01:18:38
shorter side so I had actually ended up messaging the brother of this person just to find out
01:18:45
whether or not he is he's communicated with law enforcement and he did message me back and state that he has
01:18:52
communicated with them in the Delphi police are aware as well as the FBI so as of right this moment that is what
01:19:01
my gut is telling me um that he looks really good for it why isn't this why isn't this thing solved yet why do
01:19:10
you is there any one thing that you think you can hone in on and point out that you think that hey
01:19:15
this is what they need or this is why they can't find this guy well I think one of the main reasons is time has
01:19:22
become the enemy in the case [Music] if and you know we can always say if right if this happened then we would have them
01:19:31
if this happened I really believe though and I think we talked about this in the Amy mihalovic
01:19:36
case as well why sit on evidence for that long that could potentially identify somebody and we know with Amy's
01:19:43
case they did not know it was even connected right with this case though they knew that was
01:19:49
a video and they did not release any of it they they sent out a still frame of a
01:19:56
person and then they sent out a sketch that was later changed and I I mean I think
01:20:05
unfortunately I don't know if it was a strategy of law enforcement to not let the individual know how much they had it
01:20:12
first um but I mean like my God the the man is captured on tape his voice is captured
01:20:17
on tape there's a video of him available like what what else is it going to take
01:20:24
to be able to find this person I mean I really do think that whoever did Commit This somebody knows it was them whether
01:20:32
it's a family member close friend they know but they just have not spoken up and be I mean with that amount of
01:20:39
evidence it would be very difficult to not identify but at the same time I do think if this
01:20:46
information would have been released previously I have a feeling it would have been
01:20:51
solved by now one thing that has taken over my mindscape in the past few days more so than the statement of there were
01:21:00
at least two or three signatures or at least x amount of things that were odd about the crime scene
01:21:06
is I've heard several of the investigators that are at the very center of this investigation
01:21:14
say the same thing and this is in regards to them talking about the crime scene and potential
01:21:21
evidence as well stating that we all thought this would be solved very quickly we all thought it
01:21:28
would just be a day maybe a couple of days makes me wonder what happened that's that prevented that from being
01:21:37
the case these are seasoned investigators these are this is not their first rodeo and they're all
01:21:43
sharing that same opinion from different agencies what changed in the investigation that
01:21:49
prevented that from happening or you'll wonder do they did they think that they had something that they did not
01:21:56
did they think that they had something of evidentiary value that turned out to not be
01:22:02
of any value at all like they focused too much on one or two things that they should have been looking at the bigger
01:22:08
grand scheme no not that they mishandled it or went about it the wrong way just they they thought they had something
01:22:16
that that it didn't turn out to be what it appeared to be on the surface at the crime scene or uh in relation to the
01:22:24
case yeah hmm but to have different individuals from different agencies all say that same
01:22:33
statement and then later we have Doug Carter saying well we think we were on to something early on in our
01:22:38
investigation and that he has that statement right around the time where they're changing directions they're
01:22:44
taking the investigation in a New Direction you know when we get the new sketch I think the reason why this thing might
01:22:52
not be solved I think Bridge guy has a helper hmm and I don't that doesn't necessarily
01:23:01
there's I think there's something helping him and it's working against the investigation
01:23:08
I think there's an added step there's something extra that law enforcement are up against here that they may not even
01:23:16
be aware that they're up against and what I mean by that is a helper to I don't even know that it has to be a
01:23:23
person it could be some form of Technology it could be a person and again the the person
01:23:30
themselves doesn't necessarily have to be a full-on 100 accomplice it could be somebody that just aided in
01:23:39
some manner to this individual and may not even know that they've helped Bridge guy
01:23:45
right and what what any of this could be could be it could be a false Alibi you could get that with some kind of
01:23:53
technology or a person maybe the person does know what you've done but you have a false Alibi that that
01:24:00
looks and it passes the smell test to investigators to where you are not on a certain list now because you have this
01:24:08
Alibi but but in fact it's not a truthful one at all you could also come up with a false
01:24:14
Alibi based off of technology and I and I don't know exactly how or what I don't
01:24:19
have an idea of what that would be but if you had somebody I think the problem is a lot of people
01:24:26
point out to you well you want somebody that had a type of job or lifestyle that
01:24:31
means that they did not have to be accounted for during that time because they've always told us in their General
01:24:36
profile that this person may have missed an appointment or had an unexcused absence from something during or around
01:24:46
the time of the murders so if they if they didn't if that has not worked on on apprehending this
01:24:53
individual then you go well maybe this person did not have to be accounted for that day at that time
01:25:00
and that was my belief for a long time I'm starting to wonder if if this individual maybe they spoke to
01:25:07
them or spoke to the helper and there's something telling them that this person could not have been in the
01:25:13
area at the time but they in fact very well could have well it's interesting too at that at the
01:25:22
announcement they had last year in April um do you remember the comment they they
01:25:27
made to the perpetrator who may very well be in this room and they stopped talking
01:25:32
that has stuck out to me too and I think it stuck out to a lot of people and a lot of people noticed both
01:25:39
of them looked in a very specific area of the room did you notice that yeah I noticed that
01:25:46
I I thought that um one the rumor I heard in regards to that was that there was somebody in the room
01:25:55
that has not been fully Cooperative with their investigation um and they might be suspicious of the
01:26:03
individual because of that but I've also heard from the press that was present there that day that they had a different
01:26:11
feeling in a different sense yes they were all kind of in shock when they heard that statement at first
01:26:18
and thought well the killer could be in the room but I got the feeling that none
01:26:22
of the the press that that spoke about their experience that day left there thinking that
01:26:27
that police believed that the guy was actually in the room I do think that they purposely because
01:26:33
remember they announced I think they made the announcement on Thursday or Friday that they were going
01:26:39
to have an announcement in the case on that Monday on the following Monday so I think they purposely did that with the
01:26:46
intention of giving the bridge guy enough time to get there should he want to attend that press conference right
01:26:53
and what was interesting to me too is the murders took place on a Monday maybe they're just going off of something as
01:26:59
simple as well he was available on that Monday is there a chance that he's still
01:27:04
available on Mondays let's make the press conference on a Monday that's an interesting thought
01:27:11
that's a really interesting thought I really can't shake and I know it seems so stupid and dumb and out of bounds
01:27:17
right now but I cannot shake the fact that I'm I'm really starting to think he had some kind of helper in some way and
01:27:24
I I'm and I mean is that somebody that's providing a false alibi is it somebody that dropped him off in
01:27:32
that area right is there is it somebody that that was not there for the abduction or the killings themselves but
01:27:41
was going to be a part of something later and then that's where I go back to maybe that's why he passed on the
01:27:48
potential of one victim and went went after just gonna say that oh my gosh that's why I mean that's a really
01:27:56
that could explain the two victim choice and there's a good chance that law enforcement knows this
01:28:03
and you go well why would they hold that back are they trying to appeal to one of one
01:28:10
of the perpetrators right to turn on the other one because under that scenario you may have two
01:28:18
people and and my belief is if it was if he did have a helper that the bridge guy
01:28:24
is much more guilty of much more horrible crimes than what the helper would be guilty of and you wonder does
01:28:32
Doug Carter come out with that statement that I believe that you still have just
01:28:37
an ounce left of I can't remember his exact words but he's he's trying to play to somebody
01:28:44
that might have some form of remorse or some form of guilt of their involvement in this and get
01:28:51
them to come forward give them the chance to come forward yeah that helper theory is really that's really
01:28:57
interesting Melissa thank you for coming on today I really appreciate it was fascinating discussion and hopefully we
01:29:03
will be talking very soon when this case is solved or going to try I sure hope so
01:29:08
thanks for having me on foreign whatever struggles you are facing from depression and anxiety to trauma and
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01:30:04
recording of this discussion with Melissa Lee Tobe lessenby who is the Carroll County Sheriff told the Carroll
01:30:12
County Comet that they have DNA and a partial fingerprint of the suspect that they are seeking in the double homicides
01:30:22
of the Delphi murders if anyone has information you can reach the tip line at 844-459-5786 until next week be good be
01:30:34
kind and don't litter [Music] foreign