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thank you [Music] [Music] thank you foreign garage wherever you are whatever you're
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doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man you
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gave a cookie so he got you a cookie here is the captain you gave me Cookie got you Cookie you gave me Cookie I got
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you Cookie it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend
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today we are still sipping on green slush made by Wiley Roots Brewing Company tall cans in the air green slush
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has an ABV of 4.6 percent and it's a sour ale with watermelon drink mix don't ask what that means just enjoy garage
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grade 4 out of five bottle caps and who is Raising those tall cans in the air with me well it's some of our good
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friends right here first up and Captain you will like this one we have a cheers to Jolene from Peyton Manning's favorite
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City Omaha Nebraska and a big shout out to Laura from Salem Oregon next up we have a double cheers to Scott and Lacey
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drinking it up in Madison Indiana and a big shout out to Christina and Utica New
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York next we have a big cheers in Iran Swanson please and thank you that goes out to Diane in San Francisco and last
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but certainly not least we have Brandi from a dry county in Arkansas everyone we just mentioned they helped us out
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with this week's beer fund and we thank you yeah BW double r-u-n Beer Run get you some give you some more True Crime
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garage by going to our website True Crime garage.com and signing up for our bonus show called off the Record if
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you're nasty that is enough of the business all right everybody gather out grab a chair grab a
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beer let's talk some true crime 15th of 1999 Wednesday it's 1309 hours my name is detective Bud Sampson we're
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in the Ravenna Police Department interview room along with me is detective William mucklow and detective
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John Leach of the Alliance Police Department also in the room is Joseph Eisenberg
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[Music] this morning [Music] he took advantage of me and were you having some hard time
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I lost everything anymore where was her body found the living room so when you walk up the stairs from the
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entry room she's right there at the top of the stairs so if everything is as it should
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be we have a baby up at the next floor up in her room we have two of the children locked in
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their rooms for the night and then we have Vinnie who may have been in a crib or in a sleeping situation or may have
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been roaming the house when whoever came and we don't have any sign of forced entry
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so either this person had access to the home or the door was unlocked or Yvonne knew the individual and invited them in
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the way that things were found inside the residence almost would give the appearance that someone was there with
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her and things were going smoothly up into the point of of her murder yeah is it the dining room table or one of
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the tables almost has the appearance that people may have been sitting there discussing something or sharing
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cigarettes yeah yeah and then we have we have the this is a a very interesting angle of this case too is that the
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killer either knew or felt comfortable enough that either a none of the children would be
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able to identify them or B none of the children saw what they did and left all the children unharmed
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yeah and actually not only were they unharmed but the the other thinking is that
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Vinnie always slept in his diaper and then he was fully dressed when he was found he was not covered in blood you
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know assuming if he was crawling around and found his mom he'd be covered in blood he was fully dressed which he
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cannot do himself again he has a severe disability he could not dress himself so
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the thinking has always been that somebody took care of and dressed Vinnie so not only did they not harm the
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children but took care of one of the children which is yes A possibility one and but two could just be happenstance
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that for whatever reason he was dressed still dressed from from the night he could have been and just never made it
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to her body to get you know blood I mean but that's the thing too like there was
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you know I stress a lot in this season the crime scene and how how brutal it is and that is a hundred percent not for
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any kind of shock value it is because the crime scene is so important to who did this I mean when you look at it it
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is so gruesome and bloody and there is overkill I mean the TV was thrown on top of her um a dresser and a TV were thrown
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on top of her after this person decapitated her anyone who's looked at it has said well this wasn't a hit this
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looks personal this is so Overkill environment yeah so that's why you know I talk a lot about the crime scene
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because it looks so personal so it's and then when you think about that if you think okay this is
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someone who knew her they were angry at her maybe it was a father of one of the kids maybe this person did know Vinnie
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really well so a lot of her immediate family were looked into and surprised a lot of them had reason to kill her her
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dad was allegedly sexually abusing her and her sisters for years and she thought that he was doing it to
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her kids too you know her mother-in-law hated her because she was taking the welfare checks from Vinnie and the
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Mother-in-law was taking care of her so when you look at this crime scene it does not look like someone was hired to
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kill her it looks like somebody who knew her did this and took care of Vinnie on
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their way out well they even suspected David's girlfriend for a while right because yes because you have this
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situation where you're dating this guy now he's having a baby with his X is kind of an odd situation yes and we get
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into Amy in in the coming episodes but you know Amy's interesting because her and Yvonne hated each other obviously
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they're both you know in love with the same guy and there's kids involved but you know the thing has always been is
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Amy would actually be the last person that was able to get into Yvonne's house because if Yvonne even saw Amy at her
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doorstep everyone who knew Yvonne was like oh no she would have beat the [ __ ] out of Amy
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immediately she wasn't getting in the house so it's just really interesting Amy of
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course had a motive but would she even be able to get in the house and then we go back to this whole we find out she's
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a sex worker that could be why there's a lock on the door to lock the kids in so they don't
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walk out on something right um so did she have one of her Johns over that night there's just so many people
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and it's yes Joe sounds convincing and yes this could be what happened but then when I look at the crime scene I'm I
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just again go no no way this was Joe this was someone she was sleeping with or somebody that she already has a baby
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with it wasn't Joe hired as a hit it's it's very confusing well there have been people that have said that the way that
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they found the crime scene as you said the TV thrown on top of her there what there was a bookshelf overturned as well
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it was there was a TV on top of a dresser so the dresser and the TV were on top of her okay so somebody attempted
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to probably in one foul swoop I imagine try to throw both of those items tip them over on top of her at the same time
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and some have speculated look that might be somebody who's trying to make it the
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crime scene have the appearance of a struggle well to me I look at that and say no this is somebody that wanted to
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destroy this woman that slitting her throat was not good enough watching her expire in just a matter of seconds on
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the floor there was not good enough they had to take it a step further and throw
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these heavy items onto her body as it lie there lifeless already and you know we we have a certain
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a certain understanding of and rightfully so descriptive way of hate crime but one thing that gets lost
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sometimes in these murder cases is the individual that kills the victim nine times out of ten hates the victim
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hates the victim to the point of Destruction for whatever reason something happened they feel wronged
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they feel challenged or any number of scenarios can play out but in that moment In the Heat of the Moment
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that individual hates the victim so much so that they want to kill them they want
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to destroy them and that's what I see when we're talking about this crime scene here that it was somebody was in
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such rage that they they took this extra step it was unnecessary to kill you know because she's already
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dead it was unnecessary to do any of these these further actions before leaving the home let's stay on
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eyewitnesses because there was wasn't there another possible eyewitness we talked about the children we talked
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about the other eyewitness but there was another eyewitness that saw a man and the description sounds somewhat similar
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to to the to the other one I'm just a little confused on on what time and where this falls into the the
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timeline of the 31st and the first yeah so this this guy very similar he was another
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neighborhood guy who again just went to the police and said hey look I think I saw this might be helpful it was
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actually the night of the murder he said around Twilight he was walking his dog so who the hell knows what Twilight
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means he saw a man trying to get into the house and that's really all we know we know that the police also took him to
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a kind of relaxation therapy that they also took George to to try and get him to remember what they saw George said it
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seemed more like an interrogation he kind of seemed like he was hooked up to a lie detector test so they did the same
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thing with this witness and nothing came of it um again this was not given to the
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defense in in Discovery so this was another Brady violation what we do know about that night is
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she did have quite a few visitors I mean her house was not this home that no one
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went to this quiet mom with you know kids it was really a high trafficked home you
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know her dad was there that day we don't know where he was that evening uh we do
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know he he puts himself there that day we know that around 5 30 her neighbor was there he was someone who was seen
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with her he said he went on a bike ride afterwards um you can't really account for that so
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that's already two people we know were at her house that day that you know we don't know where they went afterwards at
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the time of the murder according to Joe he was there that evening so was this guy one of them was it a different guy
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that the neighbor saw trying to get into the home around Twilight it just raises
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so many questions yeah but the eyewitnesses that are not connected to the family they're just neighbors or
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passer buyers they're all putting these individuals well below six foot yeah so the yes so both um George Hale and this
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other man two separate Witnesses two neighbors don't know anybody involved in this case say that the guy trying to get
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into the home or the guy leaving the home was about five eight dark hair yeah I mean that wouldn't be Joe either way
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assuming that you know that what they saw actually happened so George Hale was on the stand for the
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post-conviction hearing when they went back to court for the Brady violation for George Hale
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and on his cross is when he kind of came across as a weak witness I I personally
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don't think George Hale is the cross-examination can always Shake people and basically on the cross the
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prosecution got him to say he just didn't know if the man was leaving her house or if he was just he he couldn't
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for sure say if he was leaving the house or not I believe George I've I've seen his interviews with you know reputable
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investigative reporters who have looked into this case I his story has always been the same and I I do think he saw
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somebody leaving the house that morning whether it was the murderer whether it was someone who had some kind of
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appointment with her that morning and stumbled in and found her dead body and was like oh crap
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um but I do believe George saw somebody leaving that house after she was dead and Twilight typically is I I think
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everybody has a little bit of a different definition for what Twilight is it's one of those things that you
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hate to hear a witness say because it could be mean different things to different people but I always think of
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it as like the time of when I can no longer see the sun in the sky but there's still it's still light out so
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around sunset or or slightly just after which is interesting because that plays to the the 7 P.M I always thought it was
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a teenage vampire movie the time frame at the at the earlier part of that time frame but Team Edward how else are they
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coming up with that 7 PM is it is it because there is somebody that says they spoke to Yvonne what at five or six
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o'clock that night so that was the neighbor that was seen with her at 5 30 yeah okay yeah and then but he's a bit
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wasn't he a bit of a creep himself yes um he's definitely an odd guy we talked to
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him in the podcast but you know we don't really we don't we do not think he was involved um again this looks like
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Overkill I mean he's a tiny little guy he's weird I just don't see we just didn't get that from him what is his
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motive what would he be so pissed off about yes maybe he was a peeper but other than that I mean the guy has no
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record he just seems like he still lives in the same house I mean if you murdered
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this girl you would think he'd probably leave I mean there was just many reasons
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to make us think like you know he probably wasn't involved and I'm with you I don't think he lines up and I find
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it interesting that he speaks with you guys all these years later it doesn't seem like he's dodging anything here
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hasn't moved away but I will throw this out there when we go into motive and things of that nature is I have seen in
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more than one case where we have an individual that is very much like this that did commit the crime
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and what where I'm going with this Maggie is that this guy would see men in and out of Yvonne's home all hours of
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the day and then he's over there gets inside she's invited him in she rejects him and
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then his mind goes to she doesn't say no to anybody else why is she saying no to me what is wrong
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with what is wrong with me and then it then he turns on her so I've seen that in some cases I'm not saying that's the
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situation here we know that Yvonne could be described as promiscuous I'm not saying that there were men coming in and
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out of her house at all hours of the day although it seems like that may have been the situation yeah yeah exactly and
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you know we think about that too with Joe maybe that Joe did do this and he also got pissed that she rejected him
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and he just kind of lost it the interesting thing and I'm curious to hear what you guys think is you know
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I guess we could put Jim aside the neighbor but I want to talk about jokes I don't
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know as much about Jim I just know he doesn't have a record I mean everything we know about Joe is he is this kind
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person yes he's troubled but it never seemed to manifest in a violent deviant way
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um Joe's friend said he didn't even really do drugs I mean he smoked weed and drank
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um so you know he's this kind nice kid would he suddenly just snap and become this rageful killer when he had nothing
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like that in his past I'm just curious to hear your thoughts well it has a lot of trauma in his past
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so to me that would give him the capability the thing I can't get over with with Joe
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is um a couple things one the confession before he talks to police because he's basically telling people I
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did this before he even talked with police yeah um allegedly did I put I put that in the
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podcast I couldn't remember well maybe that's something that we need to to address here if if you're able to is
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what would be the motivation of this Miss Moore and uh Mr Campbell for their statements that we spoke with
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Joe Wilkes on the day of the murder and and he says I'm I'm here to you know I've been hired to
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kill someone for for whoever but what would be their motivation for their statement because the
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captain's absolutely right that's that's how they find Joe Wilkes and that's something that if if he did tell them
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that it's very difficult for anybody to go he told somebody that and then that night someone he knew was murdered
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um I'm sorry but it gets very difficult to to get past that one it is not so much for David not so much for David
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Thorne because again there are a million different scenarios that we could have Joe Wilkes as the actual murderer here
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in David Thorne didn't have anything to do with it and he just had the worst luck in the world that he interacted
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with this guy and was friends with this guy before and after absolutely I mean we we think about this all the time so
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Rose and Chris are interesting so I mentioned you know we rack our brains every day trying to think about what
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would their motive be we don't know one of our hypotheses is you know Chris did get a lot of trouble with the law he was
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actually arrested like a day or two after he told police about this you know we've we've speculated he could have
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been an informant they just needed to lean on him for this and Rose was his girlfriend and he just told her to shut
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up and just stick to the story and whatever you know it could have been any sort of
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combination of that I I don't know what their motive would have been I don't know if they lied what I do know is that
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their stories are odd they're they change a lot between no it was definitely not a pocket knife and then
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by trial it was a pocket knife I find that something really difficult to get around how do you mistake an eight inch
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blade and then suddenly a pop it's a pocket knife you know she specifically mentioned a sheath
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I think that's weird his clothing changed colors they say he was in a white Nike tracksuit at the mall
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um the pants that he found were black that doesn't bother me as much you know people can mistake colors all of our
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memories are not perfect but you know there are just weird things about them in Joe's confession
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he never mentioned seeing them he says I was at the mall and blah blah blah they
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specifically asked did you tell anybody about this so it's weird it's it's just weird it's
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one of those Mysteries that I don't know if we'll ever have answers to what happened at that at the mall and if they
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lied or why they lied if they did well when they they come forward it's three months later so it's it's easy to go
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okay maybe they didn't remember what color pants the guy was wearing it's it is weird that that Joe isn't a
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little more upfront about having talked to somebody that night when he seems to be giving the police everything else
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that they're asking for during the course of that confession the one thing though that I find
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interesting is do you see is there a road that investigators could take that somehow leads them to Joe Wilkes
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through David Thorne and then now three months later we have to we can't say oh we we found Joe
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Wilkes by this Avenue we need to create an Avenue that led us to Joe Wilkes because what the jury is going to see in
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this case if David would have had a good defense team it would have it should have been
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pointed out that look for three months these guys had nothing and they tried to build a case against David Thorne and
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they couldn't so you as jurors have to ask yourself why if David is so damn guilty here why did they have nothing
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for three months and so now we have this I mean and here's where I'm going with this man I
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wonder phone records Joe Wilkes does he use his name when he checks into the hotel that night
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you know there are ways that could lead you to Joe Wilkes as an investigator that that later you can go back and say
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you know what Chris Campbell you're not such a good guy why don't you help us out and we'll help you out a little bit
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at the same time because we need somebody to tell us about this Joseph Wilkes guy exactly oh and that that
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girlfriend of yours that uh can you think you can get her to go along with your statement well that's the thing too
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they knew that they were at the mall that night and and it's just so interesting because Joe
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has never denied seeing them but he has said it was just a casual conversation you know it wasn't something that stuck
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out to him when he's being interrogated by the police and telling them every accounting of his day
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so it's just I and I'm with you on that maybe that's exactly what it was that's why you know we have
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really been looking into was Chris an informant of some kind did he have relations with the police could they
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have leaned on him it's all possible there's so many possibilities in this case yeah the other thing that bothers
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me is the child when he says that he saw Jeremy or or what was the other name Jimmy or Jimmy it sounded like he gave
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two or three yeah there was another name yeah they were all J names right which goes along but it wasn't Joe yeah but it
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goes along with Joseph where maybe he just can't remember I know it started with a J so it's Jeremy
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or you know or whatever it is so I think that has always bothered me and that's very interesting Captain because we know
00:24:19
by Joe's own statements that he had seen he had been to Yvonne's at least once maybe twice is that right Maggie no more
00:24:29
than maybe two times according to him how many times if we include the murder yeah it's one of those kind of murky
00:24:35
murky areas so Captain might be hitting on something here with your mom this child may be trying his best to help but
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because he's only met this guy once or twice or you know maybe he's having trouble placing the
00:24:50
name and he's getting close with the J names and uh that's a very interesting thing I
00:24:57
absolutely agree with you guys I don't think we can really you know just brush aside what Vinnie said and I think you
00:25:02
know every one of these things on its face is not you know major but when you put them all together it's
00:25:11
it's really um confusing I'd say well I have a question what do you think I have a
00:25:16
question for you Joe has recanted his confession before is that is that when he's recanting the
00:25:25
confession is he's saying I I wasn't there I didn't murder anybody no he's always put him there himself
00:25:32
there he says he didn't do it he says he he walked in and she was already dead and he panicked and left
00:25:38
[Music] [Music] so if he wasn't there with the purpose of being paid to commit a homicide why
00:26:05
in those statements is he there he at all one statement he went to invite her to a hotel party
00:26:12
in one statement that's why he's at the hotel yes in another statement he's there to have sex with her again she
00:26:19
could have rejected him and he flies into a rage does something that he almost immediately regrets and now lucky
00:26:29
him see that's one thing the other issue that I have with getting away from the possibility of Joe Wilkes as the actual
00:26:37
murder because you know you said well he didn't have much of a record or didn't have a record and he didn't do drugs yet
00:26:43
by his own admission in in that confession regardless of how they got to that statement it is still his sworn
00:26:50
statement at the time he says I did it I did some drugs that night uh before going over there to kill her and then
00:26:58
later his own words again to save my own ass I said you know I had to tell them that David Thorne hired me and so it's
00:27:09
like is this guy smart enough and you said he's no dummy is he smart enough to be creating ways to save his own butt I
00:27:18
think so I was I was so high on these drugs when I killed her I didn't know what I was doing I was out of my mind
00:27:24
man oh and uh if that doesn't work and I need somebody else to to save my butt I
00:27:29
can blame some of this on David Thorne and maybe maybe I called him the next day for for no reason other than because
00:27:36
we were friends and and I know that maybe they might be able to find he called David to confess called him to
00:27:43
confess there's any number of things and we we see if in fact all the things that
00:27:49
everybody says about David Thorne and Joe Wilkes relationship is true other than this murder part given Joe's
00:27:56
background and how he was raised and the horrible environments that he was raised
00:28:01
in and then David being a little older it looks like Dave David kind of takes him under his his wing he you know we
00:28:08
know David's a car guy he gives him some kind of junk car that that somebody like
00:28:12
David could fix up and that he would he would actually have a vehicle so he could get to and from a job and David
00:28:19
says you know like look I'm not doing I didn't do favors for this kid because because I hired him to kill my
00:28:27
ex-girlfriend I did favors for the kid because one I wanted to help him out but two I would help him out and it would
00:28:33
create inconveniences for me now now this guy's always reaching out to me can you drive me here can you drive me to my
00:28:40
I'm going to lose my job if somebody doesn't take me there and you know I can get this kid a vehicle for a few hundred
00:28:46
bucks and it helps him out but ultimately helps me out as well yeah absolutely I I think you know there is
00:28:54
there's so many possibilities and we haven't even gone into you know the fact that the cops the cops didn't at the
00:29:01
beginning think David actually had anything to do with this by their own admission they went to the psychic I
00:29:07
mean and that that is the biggest bombshell of this whole case is what the police say to the psychic well
00:29:14
let's let's Circle back to that Maggie before we get too far away from something else that I'm very intrigued
00:29:19
on I I always love when we cover cases I I want to hear the suspects I want a a roll call of the suspects and let's
00:29:28
start with the J suspects because we were talking about Vinnie trying to help out saying I saw a Jimmy or a Jeremy or
00:29:37
somebody with that sounding name hurt my mom pushed my mom interestingly enough there is a Jeremy in this case and
00:29:44
there's a Jimmy in this case who is the Jeremy and how is he tied to our victim yeah so Jeremy is a family friend it's
00:29:54
um Eric who's Yvonne's Boyfriend Baby Daddy it's his mother's boyfriend okay so Jeremy you know knew Vinnie very well
00:30:05
actually because Vinnie was living with him and Linda Vinnie was not in Yvonne's
00:30:10
custody she pretty much gave Vinnie up at Birth because he was disabled she couldn't really take care of him and she
00:30:17
gave him to her her boyfriend's parents to take care of so Vinnie was raised by Jeremy and Linda for the most part so he
00:30:25
would know Jeremy if he saw Jeremy and one of the names of Jeremy if the if there was a motive for Jeremy to be
00:30:32
involved or have done this it would be simply all tied to the boy Vinnie they're practically raising Vinnie the
00:30:41
majority of the time not practically they are raising him the majority of the time they're his main caregivers as it
00:30:47
sounds to me yet Yvonne is getting the disability checks from the state and she's using them to fund her
00:30:57
lifestyle or raise her other children exactly well again I think the whole idea of you know if she's having if she
00:31:05
is a sex worker and and having guys coming in out of house that creates a motive for almost any male that's in her
00:31:11
life like you said they come on to her or they think well she's uh saying yes to all these guys
00:31:19
she'll say yes to me and if she doesn't there's a lot of guys that would go into
00:31:24
a rage and then the there's also a gym or a Jimmy in this right and that's the neighbor that we talked about Jim is the
00:31:33
neighbor who also knew the kids I don't know how well they knew him I mean According to Jim you know him and Yvonne
00:31:40
would just hang out outside in the yard sometimes and the kids would run around his yard because their yards connected
00:31:46
there was no fence between them so it seems like he knew the kids but certainly not on the level that Jeremy
00:31:52
did and if he were in fact the guilty party it would fall into what the captain was just talking about there
00:31:59
where this would be he had some kind of infatuation or obsession with with this I mean she was a very beautiful young
00:32:06
woman and again if you have a scenario where he thought they were friendly and all of
00:32:12
a sudden she rejects him or calls him a name or finds him in an adequate or anything you have those
00:32:20
possibilities one person that I want to hit on before we get into the amazing wonderful Alliance Police Department and
00:32:30
how fine and fantastic of a job they just continue to do I want to talk about somebody that if in fact the things that
00:32:37
I've heard about this individual on your podcast make him probably the most disgusting and Despicable individual
00:32:44
that's referenced so far I I understand you have some episodes to get to but Sherman let's talk about Sherman because
00:32:52
I have German if I'm looking at this case from a clean slate that's the guy that I want to talk to the most and the
00:33:01
people around him are the ones that I I want to ask about Sherman the most off the bat I've called him the number that
00:33:08
I have for him isn't working I've reached out to the kids to ask them you know for a number I have tried to reach
00:33:15
him and I can't so um Sherman you know again they're Jehovahs and they live a very quiet life but we have heard
00:33:25
from her friends a lot of horror stories about the abuse that he put her and you
00:33:32
know very recently we heard from another close friend and her sisters we believe
00:33:36
we're we're also maybe abused by him sexually and we do know that Yvonne thought that it was possible he
00:33:45
was doing this to her kids and she actually set up a video camera in her house with tapes Eric's actual
00:33:52
dad not Jeremy Eric's dad Fred helped her set up videotapes to try and catch Sherman in the ACT
00:34:00
um this was Fred's one of Fred's statements before he passed away so we have not been able to like a nanny cam
00:34:06
yeah but of course it was you know 1999 so it's like a giant camera that you could see in some of the crime scene
00:34:11
photos on top of her fridge and those tapes were collected and and Fred had asked for the tapes back and he never
00:34:17
got them so we don't know what's on those tapes they don't seem to exist anymore but um yeah you know Sherman to
00:34:23
me too like you know what if Yvonne was pregnant with his kid what if one of these kids is Sherman's kid that that
00:34:30
has certainly crossed our minds that could be the reason why the one kid has certain disabilities and I mean anything
00:34:36
is possible um you know the more we've talked to people who knew her the more it seems like the abuse was
00:34:45
pretty severe it seems like you know even their mother probably knew in a lot of these cases they know and there's
00:34:51
nothing they can do or you know they're also abused you know again these are all
00:34:56
allegations I'm not saying Sherman did this this is just what we have heard from multiple people
00:35:01
um and we've thought about him as a suspect and the thing that we just keep coming back to is I don't think that he
00:35:08
would have wanted this attention they really seemed to recoil from it and not necessarily in a way of like we did this
00:35:16
it seems like they really just do not want this attention at all they have never spoken to Media they've never been
00:35:23
a part of it they you know kind of wrapped it up and it was quiet and again that could be because he knows some
00:35:29
dirty things are going to lead back to him or again because they're quiet people
00:35:33
and he just wouldn't murder his daughter because he doesn't want all this attention is something we've really
00:35:38
thought about I don't care who you are nobody wants to be known as in you know in incest driven sexual predator and
00:35:49
um so one thing that we see here in this case is the potential of a possible cover-up
00:35:58
and the reason why I bring him up and you know there's another cover-up possibility that we're going to quickly
00:36:06
get into and move along to here but with Sherman in relation to him if there were to be another type of
00:36:13
cover-up if she was killed you know that's one of the leading motivations for murder in anywhere is to cover up
00:36:21
previous crimes and if in fact Sherman is guilty of the rumors that you have heard then it seems to me like that
00:36:30
would be something that he may want to cover up maybe he went there that night to try to reason with her or threaten
00:36:39
her to keep her quiet or to collect those tapes maybe she threatened him that's one thing that I think we haven't
00:36:46
really touched on much is Yvonne's personality she didn't seem to me to be much of a uh take a lot of [ __ ] kind of
00:36:54
person you know she actually she was not um she was feisty would be a very polite
00:37:00
and kind way of of describing her yeah so so we have found out you know through our reporting that Yvonne was a scammer
00:37:09
in a sense she would Shake people down so the idea that you know she was threatening her dad to expose him is
00:37:17
very plausible maybe she did catch something on that camera and he went over again he puts himself there that
00:37:23
day I have no idea where he was that night of course we don't have any recorded interviews with him from the
00:37:31
police so that's really helpful when trying to go back to this investigation there's not a single interview with him
00:37:36
so we don't really know where he was that night what he was doing at all and one thing that doesn't sit well with me
00:37:43
about Sherman and it's coming from law enforcement's own mouth when they went to talk with
00:37:50
her mother and they say even now she's a shell of an individual and so if you happen to hear you know your husband say
00:38:01
well that's it she's dead to me and then you end up finding her dead the next day
00:38:08
there's going to be doubt in your mind so you know it's one thing to find your your dead child but then if you know on
00:38:17
top of that that your husband's responsible for it that puts you in a very scary situation
00:38:24
yeah I think Tanya was in a scary situation before the murder too I think that was just a dark household you know
00:38:32
the abuse that she endured if it is true would certainly explain why you know she
00:38:37
was allegedly so promiscuous and having children at 16 a lot of it you know makes makes sense
00:38:44
um she was sexually traumatized and you know that that's that's often what happens but yeah so you know there's and
00:38:54
I know this is what you want to talk about you know there's no interview with Sherman because the police did a really
00:38:59
not good job with this investigation so yeah we could talk about that well yeah and real quick before we move on in
00:39:07
regards to the tapes if they existed or or what was on them we don't know as you
00:39:12
said they we can't find them uh today and one thing with those those tapes and Yvonne's personality and attitude and
00:39:23
being a possible victim to Sherman or maybe her her kids are victimized by this guy
00:39:31
there doesn't necessarily have to be anything incriminating on those tapes for him to want those tapes to go away
00:39:38
bad enough to potentially do something like this it could just simply be the threat of those tapes of her saying you
00:39:45
know I got a video camera running in here all the time you know I've been taping you while you're over here that
00:39:52
doesn't necessarily have to mean that that she caught anything on camera just that it was happening and he perceived
00:40:01
the threat of being outed because of that camera now just so we don't dance around the
00:40:07
subject anymore why don't we talk about the Alliance PD as it were 1999 and I understand that they've made a lot
00:40:19
of effort to clean things up there since then it but it was not the most well-run
00:40:25
oiled machine back then as we would want it to be as Citizens and taxpayers and a
00:40:32
lot of that comes out in those tapes when we have detectives talking with the psychic and thank you Maggie for
00:40:39
including that in the series because that psychic woman just amazing she she's looking at these
00:40:46
detectives and going why haven't you guys looked into this why is Yvonne hanging out with so many cops why is she
00:40:52
friends with so many cops why are there so many married officers Married with Children officers
00:40:58
that seem to be friendly with her some have some kind of relationship with her yeah
00:41:04
these cops Michael and Samson never thought that these tapes would see or hear the light of day ever ever ever
00:41:13
ever this was one of the Brady violations at trial this was never presented it was hidden they got it in
00:41:19
the post-conviction and the the tapes actually I got the attorneys never had the tapes that I know of they have the
00:41:27
transcripts so this is the first time anyone's hearing the tapes and it's just it's like you said the psychic I mean
00:41:36
it's just jaw dropping at what they are telling the psychic about their own department and people that they had
00:41:44
heard officers were sleeping with her you know for money um and she asked if they ever looked
00:41:51
into any of these people and they're like no did you look into you know the dad no did you look into Jeremy well I
00:41:58
guess we should do that they honed in on David and it seems like they really we don't
00:42:04
have a formal interview with Jeremy we don't have a formal interview with Jim we don't have formal interviews with any
00:42:10
of these officers that were allegedly sleeping with her and half of these we don't even have interviews with so if
00:42:15
they spoke to them where is that why would you not speak to her father that you tell this psychic was abusing her
00:42:22
um it's just mind-blowing that the entire case File is David and then Joe and you know so the
00:42:32
department at the time um I do a whole episode on this because it's you know I could do five episodes
00:42:38
on it um in 1998 the chief chief black and eight officers were fired for severe corruption for stealing guns drugs and
00:42:49
money from the evidence room and your guess is as good as mine is where the guns drugs and money were going when
00:42:55
they were stealing it so you know at the time of her murder the department is in
00:43:00
chaos there are still folks that are you know seriously corrupt who just were not
00:43:05
caught and fired it was just it was it was incredible what was happening at the time in the department and then this
00:43:13
young mother is murdered and the investigation was so poor it will just blow your mind I mean and to simplify it
00:43:22
almost seems like law enforcement went okay well it's either Eric or it's David and Eric's in jail so it
00:43:31
has to be David oh wait David was at this uh wrestling class and there's he has three
00:43:41
countries away and he has solid Alibis not just one person multiple people and then they just kind of stop
00:43:51
the investigation for three months that's how the exactly that's how the case files are there's nothing from May
00:43:57
there's nothing from June all of a sudden we have Joe Wilkes in in July I mean I just think it's really
00:44:06
bizarre what were you doing in that time well and for those not familiar with the
00:44:11
case we should point out here that David Thorne is at this martial arts class this was routine this is a once a week
00:44:19
thing that had gone on for weeks prior to this this was not him going out of his way to be several counties away
00:44:27
conveniently at the time of the murder these guys it doesn't seem like they were starting a murder investigation it
00:44:36
seems to me like they were starting from scratch because they just didn't know what to do or how to conduct this type
00:44:43
of investigation not with any kind of efficiency or thoroughness that's going to seal a conviction you hear the
00:44:51
psychic when the detectives give her information she's looking at them and you you can almost you can hear it in
00:44:59
the tone of her voice when she's throwing questions back at them she's like you guys didn't look at that you
00:45:04
guys didn't look at this you didn't you you can tell she wants to look at these two guys and go is this your first day
00:45:10
on the job did you did you just get deputized this morning because uh all these things that are obvious to a
00:45:18
psychic woman didn't appear to be obvious to these detectives or they turned their heads away from it and did
00:45:24
not want to look in those directions I think I think that's you know we talk about this too is
00:45:30
if someone else killed her the police certainly had motive to cover it up because of whatever was going on with
00:45:39
them they just wanted to brush it under the rug and none of you know none of their sex with her or even maybe drug
00:45:45
connections I mean the police tell the psychic they found weed at the crime scene marijuana there is no marijuana
00:45:53
and evidence where is that marijuana that you allegedly found at this crime scene so whatever happened in this
00:46:01
murder I think the police definitely wanted to brush it under the rug very quickly
00:46:09
um for their own sake well that's a good point too because one of the things I wondered is we have
00:46:15
this girl dead you know that there's officers that are having some kind of sexual relationship with her at that
00:46:22
point you either have to turn this investigation over to somebody else or you have to figure out which officers
00:46:30
are having a relationship make sure they have nothing to do with the case and then when you say oh well they found
00:46:36
weed and it goes missing well probably because she got that weed from a police officer or there's some connection from
00:46:43
that weed well again and that's I mean they were literally stealing guns drugs and money from the evidence room and
00:46:50
like I said it's anyone's guess where that was going there's missing marijuana from her house I mean you put the pieces
00:46:56
together it just is really shady it sounds to me like there's a portion of their evidence room back in the 90s that
00:47:05
was set items that are set aside for an officers only barbecue that was probably
00:47:11
happening on the reg you know oh we got some weed and cocaine for free oh you like collecting guns here you go buddy
00:47:19
you know let's get together officers and wives only and let's have a big blowout
00:47:25
sounds like to me yeah yeah regardless of where it came from or how she got it but the the thing here too and I hate
00:47:32
the term police cover-up because I think it's way overused and that takes away from the severe Rarity of the situation
00:47:39
when you use a term way too much and use it when it's not necessary in most cases
00:47:44
they go oh this cop knew the victim so clearly the whole Department's covering it up nay nine times out of ten what
00:47:54
I've seen in these investigations they don't mind busting and popping one of their own they want to get the guilty
00:48:01
party here this situation is unique because if what was going on that's been speculated if if any of that is true
00:48:09
they're not covering for the guy that actually killed her because of to to save his butt they're covering for the
00:48:17
whole departments they were doing committing yeah they were committing you know breaking the law time and time
00:48:24
again themselves and so they're covering their own asses by covering for one of their own if in fact what we've heard
00:48:31
has been true no exactly and that's the thing it's so messy could that guy that have been seen that morning been a cop
00:48:40
like Georgetown said sure and he was just you know cleaning up some stuff because he was like oh
00:48:47
[ __ ] if there is drugs and stuff in here we ought to get rid of it because it's
00:48:50
coming back to us you know it's like all everything is possible I think what I see here look there again there's no
00:48:58
smoking gun that tells me that David is 100 innocent I strongly question the investigation I even more so question
00:49:06
Joseph Wilkes I do see plenty of scenarios where Joe could be guilty and David just is Collateral Damage I also
00:49:16
see scenarios where we have other suspects that I have to believe I've not reviewed the trial transcripts but one
00:49:23
thing to point out here is that Joe had no trial he confessed and then he testified against David Thorne and not
00:49:31
over overly whelmingly convincing in his testimony against David Thorne either I
00:49:37
think you pointed out that he on your show that he says I don't know is seeing seems to be the most common answer that
00:49:44
he gives while on the stand I don't know I I see I see a case where we have other possibilities we have
00:49:52
other good suspects and I can't believe that the defense even made reference to these people the whole thing here is
00:50:00
I've always said that your homicide or the the victim if you're a family member of a victim your case is only as good as
00:50:09
the desk of the officer that your case File lands on and that's the unfortunate truth of these scenarios and obviously
00:50:16
there are some better police forces than others that will always be the truth but
00:50:21
one thing that gets lost in a lot of these True Crime cases especially the ones that are solved is you know we've
00:50:29
presented some cases here in the garage where you get these guys that just get bum freaking lawyers that they they're
00:50:37
happy to take your money but they ain't they ain't going to do any work for it well that's the thing they paid a lot of
00:50:41
money this was a private attorney that they hired David's family they again they were not broke I mean they used
00:50:48
they had money to hire this private attorney well and the defendant is usually blinded by the idea oh this guy
00:50:55
costs a lot of money he must know what he's doing yeah well I don't know if this guy knew what he was doing or not
00:51:01
but he didn't act that way or conduct himself that way he called three Witnesses the guy's on could be facing
00:51:08
the death penalty well it reminds me a lot of the Ryan Ferguson Triumph because you have yeah one guy confessing
00:51:16
to the crime the other guy saying I wasn't one I have an alibi but two I wasn't involved at all
00:51:22
and then you have a crappy lawyer that basically says oh well prosecution didn't prove their point so I'm not
00:51:30
gonna really defend it much how many episodes Have You released so far and how many more do you have to go
00:51:37
so there's 14 and we have six more and it is with some of the very exciting key people that can answer or just muddy
00:51:49
more of this but you know it's um this is a crazy case and I'm so thankful for you guys for putting it on your Airwaves
00:51:58
especially from Ohio because somebody knows something we have a tip line number now that people can call if
00:52:07
anyone in Ohio in the alliance area knows anything the number is 888-863-9550 so I really thank you guys
00:52:15
for this thank you as always for coming on the show we're looking forward to the
00:52:19
final episodes of murder in Alliance [Music] wish me [Music] [Music] thank you guys so much for the support
00:52:44
thanks for telling a friend so much more you can dive into in this case and that's why this week's recommended
00:52:53
listening will be murder and Alliance wherever you get your podcast and join us back here in the garage next week for
00:53:02
a new case until then be good be kind and don't listen foreign [Music]