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[Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:46
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always ladies and gentlemen if you have the chance you better run
00:01:52
here is the captain yeah you better b e r you in beer run it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening
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certainly not least we have Terry Carter in orille California everyone we just mentioned contributed to the Beer fund
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and for that we thank you yeah PW are you in beerun you need more True Crime garage for your earballs make sure you
00:03:08
subscribe to off the record on Apple podcast or on patreon and Colonel that's enough of the business all right
00:03:16
everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music]
00:03:31
tonight marks 5 years since Katherine Brown and Carnell Sledge were murdered in the metrop Park Rocky River
00:03:37
Reservation and police still don't know who did it the two friends were last seen sitting on a bench together tonight
00:03:44
a vigil was held in their honor as their families hold out hope they will get Justice our midi Hicks has more 2024
00:03:52
marks another year of frustration for Cardell sledge's family it's been 5 years since he was shot in killed and
00:04:00
there's still no answers that's too long 5 years is a long time for somebody to you know our family is still grieving
00:04:08
but even in their grief they come together for a visil each year on the same day he died to remember as they put
00:04:17
the glue for this family I remember him as being a fun loving person he he was an amazing person um he really um was
00:04:27
family orent um he actually kept us all together his loved ones say he would do anything for anyone which is why they're
00:04:36
not surprised he helped his friend Kate Brown when she called and asked him to meet her at the park but shortly after
00:04:43
parking kayakers found their bodies they were shot to death in broad daylight answer well I want to put the bread in
00:04:50
until he come he stay between 5 and 5:30 he died at the same time he was supposed
00:04:55
to meet his grandmother for dinner my baby never made it my son in-law told me I lost
00:05:02
it I loost I haven't been right since it's like a hole here I try to I try to I'm existing that hole in their hearts
00:05:12
will never be filled so they're hoping for some relief and that can only happen when the person responsible is found
00:05:21
they're asking anyone with information to come forward just trying to get some clues some answers some
00:05:27
closure and um just kind of give our families some some peace love and there's now a
00:05:36
$100,000 reward for any information that could lead to an arrest [Music] I am thankful beyond words Captain we
00:06:03
are creeping up on 10 years of podcasting together and that is a testament to all of the wonderful
00:06:09
listeners and garage friends that we have made over the years this case however is one of the scariest cases
00:06:17
that we have covered our first goar around on this case was from almost two years ago titled Cleveland Metro Parks
00:06:25
murder so that is from April of 2023 episode number 660 on your true crime garage radio dial on that episode I was
00:06:35
joined by Aaron our friend from the Generation Y podcast to discuss the unsolved murders of Carnell Sledge and
00:06:42
Katherine Brown Carnell was an AV Tech at Crescent digital in Strongsville Ohio and volunteered as a youth consultant
00:06:51
for Applewood centers and he was known for volunteering there but also for coaching Youth Sports and a lot of times
00:06:59
the were special needs kids and he coached these kids and did such a great job with it he did so much for the
00:07:08
people of his community he's described as a big teddy bear of a man who was always smiling and always looking for
00:07:15
ways to help others and known for going out of his way to help his friends and loved ones and many who called him Nell
00:07:24
Catherine worked for qcg goods in Brook Park Ohio Brook Park Ohio by the way one
00:07:30
of the most beautiful places in Ohio Katherine grew up in Olstead Falls Katherine was affectionately called Kate
00:07:38
by just about everyone that I could find now Nell and Kate were killed shot and murdered in the Greater Cleveland Ohio
00:07:45
area at the Rocky River Reservation the Rocky River Reservation is a 2500 acre preserve along the Rocky River in
00:07:54
Northeast Ohio it is expansive and it is beautiful very green so you have the Cleveland Metro Parks which is
00:08:03
absolutely fantastic if you take a look at Northeast Ohio you will see on the map and see the map peppered with these
00:08:11
green spaces that are all part of the Cleveland Metro Parks now we will hone in on Cleveland and what you will see on
00:08:22
the map is this green line you have This brilliant Lake eie to the north of Cleveland and then just below you have
00:08:29
this great green line it's not straight it's kind of like like picture the bowl of a red wine glass like a crescent moon
00:08:37
that is lip them that is what they call the Cleveland Metro Park Emerald necklace Trail which Emerald necklace is
00:08:45
a far better description than I just gave the emerald necklace connects Scenic park at the North End of the
00:08:53
Rocky River Reservation goes through mream Run Reservation and East to Brecksville
00:09:01
reservation and through the toe path Trail so a lot of bicyclists and pedestrians the trail is part of the
00:09:09
Metro Park's extensive Trail network of over 325 miles of trails across 18 Park reservation spanning nearly
00:09:18
25,000 Acres all of that to say that this is an absolutely beautiful area and what a great wonderful space for the
00:09:25
people living in the surrounding communities and the neighborhoods that we alongside these Parks yeah and one of
00:09:31
those people living close to this area is one of our victims Kate that's exactly right within that Rocky River
00:09:39
Reservation right inside that beautiful Park this is located in the city of Fair
00:09:44
viiew Park in kyoga County Ohio we have Nell who's 40 years old Kate was just 33
00:09:52
years old they met there one afternoon early evening and during the course of their Meetup someone snuck up on them
00:09:59
fired three shots boom boom boom hitting all three shots and left them there to die right there in the park now some
00:10:08
people out there say that to talk about this double homicide is to desecrate the
00:10:13
park this park the Rocky River Reservation and it is to desecrate the Metro Parks that so many people have
00:10:21
loved and so many much money and resources are expended to maintain these beautiful spaces right I think if you
00:10:30
think that or say that I I say shame on you the only thing that desecrates or desecrated this park is the man that
00:10:38
walked in there and shot two lovely innocent people sitting on a park bench on a warm sunny day in broad daylight
00:10:45
now if I'm correct I think law enforcement believes that Carnell was hit first Katie took off running she was
00:10:53
shot the breakdown of what some in law enforcement beli to have happened is that Carnell was shot first possibly
00:11:03
both shots fired first and then Kate got up and was then shot both of them at close range right now before we get into
00:11:11
the details here I want to want to go through some stuff the captain and I are revisiting this today for a multitude of
00:11:18
reasons Aaron and hold on you're revisiting I'm visiting for the first time Aaron and I took a look at this
00:11:24
double homicide in April of 2023 but then Unsolved Mysteries covered the case on their most recent release on Netflix
00:11:33
with the October 2nd 2024 release of Unsolved Mysteries Volume 5 this was the first episode of
00:11:42
Volume 5 titled the park bench murderers it's a 43 minute look at the metrop parks murders case now I wanted to cover
00:11:51
this again because frankly I was excited I was thrilled when Unsolved Mysteries covered the case why because as I said
00:11:58
in ail April of 2023 this is a very solvable case I thought that because of the streaming shows big audience and the
00:12:06
major players covering the story not just some Ohio boys here that the story would get churning on the internet and
00:12:13
the interest level would get cranked up to 11 but that didn't exactly happen so maybe we can rally the troops and get
00:12:21
this thing going but also there's more and new information there's some information that we've uncovered that's
00:12:28
that's correct now I went back to my notes from 21 months ago and I found a note in there that that I love you what
00:12:35
do we title this episode episode 660 the Rocky River Murders the metrop parks murders we covered we called the episode
00:12:45
the Cleveland Metro Parks murders Unsolved Mysteries called it the park bench murders but now let's just call it
00:12:51
what it is it's unsolved it's still unsolved to this day and so to me that's the biggest reason to revisit this C
00:12:59
it's unsolved now of course nothing is more sad than these two lovely people having their lives so
00:13:07
senselessly cut short but what is growing sadder and more desperate each and every single day is that these two
00:13:16
families Nell and Kate's loved ones the people who love them the most cannot get
00:13:22
Justice for their son their daughter their sister their brother their grandson they can't do it they have
00:13:29
tried their damnedest only the men and women of law enforcement can do that and from what my eyes have seen and from
00:13:36
what my ears have heard having kept a watchful eye on this case since June of 2019 I don't think that all of those
00:13:43
persons have done their best effort some have but maybe not all and it takes a village right we say that about our
00:13:51
children it takes a village well it took a lot of villages to build these beautiful Parks let's unite and band
00:13:58
together and solve this double homicide finally solve this double homicide because year after year we are so
00:14:04
saddened and sickened to be seeing the same old news articles of video clips on the internet that keep coming out about
00:14:10
this unsolved case headlines like one year later two families still seeking answers or family pleads for justice on
00:14:19
three-year anniversary of Rocky River Reservation double murders or four years in Rocky River Reservation killer still
00:14:26
has not been found and then after years a new push in the investigation to solve
00:14:31
the Cleveland Metro Parks murders well let's not make it six years let's not have to have similar titles for articles
00:14:39
and internet stories on the six- year anniversary let's say that we've got the killer we we've we've made an arrest and
00:14:46
we're working toward getting a conviction yeah it's sad that these murderous douche canoes are ruining our
00:14:53
Parks now I didn't drive all the way here to the garage today just to scream into a microphone I promise promise you
00:15:00
and we won't get into some of the discussions had on episode 660 if you want to go back and listen to
00:15:06
that it's sitting there available for free for you to listen to but some of those things that we talked about in
00:15:11
episode 660 will steer away from like the letter from the psychic which was interesting to review in part because it
00:15:19
was a fresh theory that went outside of the hate crime theory that had swirled early on in this case we won't get into
00:15:26
the digital detectives or how disappointed I was in the press conferences conducted by the metro parks
00:15:32
police or me screaming about how Geo fencing would solve the case in the matter of one afternoon that is all
00:15:39
there for your earballs in episode 660 like the captain said new information we have done some digging
00:15:45
made some contacts uncovered some information all that was not available to us in April of
00:15:51
2023 and it's time to present this from a different angle and under a different Spotlight so let's proceed much as been
00:15:59
made about Carell Nell in Kate's relationship was it romantic and the answer without knowing either of them
00:16:06
directly it seems to be a resounding no I believe the best description we get is
00:16:11
from the family seen on Unsolved Mysteries and in more recent local news coverage the family state that the two
00:16:20
shared about a decade long on again off again very close friendship typically when either were to be in a romantic
00:16:28
relationship they were were not as close Kate's family says that Nell was someone
00:16:32
that Kate could lean on and did when she needed to and N ever the big brother was
00:16:38
always there to help her out let's go back to the day in question this was Tuesday June 4th
00:16:46
2019 it was a warm and bright sunshiny day both Kate and Nell worked on this Tuesday Kate arrives home from work and
00:16:57
signs into her apartment's gym to work out this is at 3:38 p.m. Nell texts Kate at 4:02 p.m. asking if she would like to
00:17:09
get together law enforcement and the families agree that they do not know why the two were going to meet up right at
00:17:19
4:10 p.m. Kate calls now and they talk for about 10 minutes Nell leaves his place of work at
00:17:27
4:24 p.m. and Kate leaves the gymm at 4:31 p.m. so at this time we know that they are both
00:17:38
independently in their own Vehicles driving to the park we would learn on Unsolved Mysteries that an officer's
00:17:47
dash cam picked up both what is believed to be both of the victim's Vehicles so this would be Kate's car at 5:1 p.m. in
00:17:55
Nell's vehicle following shortly behind her at 5:03 p.m. he to provide a better description he's not following her uh
00:18:05
he's about 2 minutes behind her but they're traveling in the same direction and on this dash cam at least coming
00:18:12
from the same direction and this dash cam was just simply part of this officer's routine it's set up in his
00:18:19
patrol car and he was parked in the area so this gives us some really good information though on about what time
00:18:27
that they will arrive at the location in the park where they're later found dead because it is
00:18:33
approximately only a two-minute drive to the small gravel lot for this Lorraine Road location of
00:18:41
Rocky River from where they're spotted by the dash Camp so we can based off of this information we can
00:18:49
surmise that the arrival of both would be 503 and 505 p.m. for Kate and Nell respectively that's why of the
00:18:59
fascinating things about this case is our timeline is really backed up and is solidified by our Digital Data timeline
00:19:08
Nell's mother says that she believes that this was a last minute Meetup so she says something must have
00:19:16
been going on somebody has something on the brain or somebody has something that
00:19:20
is important and it's something that they need to address or felt that they needed to meet in person and she also
00:19:26
believes that the meeting was going to be very brief because she states that her son Nell had
00:19:33
plans to meet her and her husband n's father and some other family at Grandma's house so they're all meeting
00:19:41
up for a family dinner the plan was for a 5:00 pm arrival so he he's already late by this point right and this is an
00:19:51
event that he said he was going to and uh and he would regularly go to now one thing that we do need point out too is
00:20:00
that this would have been out of the way where where he's meeting he would then have to backtrack and travel in the
00:20:06
opposite direction to get to his grandmother's house so he goes from work to the park and then the guess is he
00:20:14
after the park a short visit he would then proceed on to Grandmother's house now I've seen some people online
00:20:21
speculate that this is very strange because like you said he's already running late to me this is not that that
00:20:28
strange you're meeting up with your family it's not like you're heading to work if you're a little behind nobody's
00:20:36
going to fire you yeah I I think a lot of people will agree with this especially if you're
00:20:42
going to something where there's several other people attending as well like if it's if it were only to be Nell right
00:20:50
going to Grandma's house he probably would have wanted to make sure he was either out time or at least phoned her
00:20:55
in advance and said hey something's come up I might be 30 minutes late but when you know other people are arriving it's
00:21:03
okay hey you know I'll be 15 minutes 20 minutes late they probably won't even notice because they'll be engaged in
00:21:09
conversation and chitchat and stuff until I get there well I'm glad you see it the way I see it there you go so at
00:21:17
this point in our timeline Captain we have both Kate and Nell sitting together on a park bench now one thing that I
00:21:25
believe is crucial to this case and possibly to the answers to this case is this park bench is visible from the
00:21:36
road the major road that's there and the gravel lot that comes off of this road so they're sitting on this park bench we
00:21:44
can say shortly after 5:05 p.m. because we we can gather that Nell would have arrived after Kate and he would have
00:21:55
pulled into this slot at 5:05 p.m. and so they make their way to this this park bench the park bench is right there just
00:22:04
in front of the Rocky River Police say that at :8 Kate unlocks her phone they note this
00:22:13
for good reason this will mean that they haven't become under attack at this point they're both alive and well at
00:22:20
50:08 p.m. now what we do know too is at 5:22 p.m. there's a 911 call that is placed to dispatch by two kayakers
00:22:29
this is a time stamp that is crucial here so two kayakers this is a a couple a married couple show up and they're
00:22:37
looking for a place to launch their kayaks they unfortunately find the body of Nell first and then when they get
00:22:46
closer they see Kate lying in the shallow part of the river So based on the movements of Kate and Nell we can
00:22:53
surmise that the kayaking couple arrive no later than 5:19 p.m. they find the bodies when trying to find the spot to
00:23:01
launch The Kayaks so garage maath here Captain tells me we are looking at 11 minutes a tiny little window of only one
00:23:09
one 11 minutes when someone walked up likely from behind shoots them from behind and flees the kayakers say they
00:23:18
heard no shots and so saw no one walking or leaving the area yeah we have no eyewitnesses that see a vehicle leaving
00:23:28
like you said it's it is a parking lot but it's gravel which also if the killer was in a car Not only would you possibly
00:23:38
see the vehicle but You' hear it mhm driving through the gravel we have no eyewitness seeing that but because this
00:23:46
is a big Park it's like did he escape through a pathway or did he escaped through the Waterway yeah
00:23:56
that's the crime scene the location does complicate the investigation now to to talk further about this gravel lot this
00:24:06
is a small pulloff lot it's it's not room for 20 cars or 30 cars like the captain had said
00:24:15
earlier we find out that the male victim was shot twice the female victim shot once the male was found lying fac down
00:24:22
next to the park bench Kate the female victim is found faced down in the water this is a
00:24:28
approximately 6 feet in front of the park bench there are cars in the this gravel lot police are very quick to
00:24:35
arrive on the scene and this is quite interesting too one of the first people from law enforcement to arrive on the
00:24:42
scene is someone who will go on to be the lead detective for a portion of the investigation and you can see they have
00:24:50
his dashboard camera of him responding to the call and arriving to that gravel lot this is minutes after the 911 call
00:24:59
is received at 5:22 p.m. right you can see on his dashboard Cam that gravel lot and whose par there you can see a a
00:25:07
pickup truck you can see Carell's vehicle you can see Kate's vehicle you see the kayakers vehicle and you also
00:25:16
see an additional vehicle which we now know who belongs who that vehicle belongs to this is a male that arrived
00:25:24
with a dog after the kayakers so that vehicle wasn't there at the time of the murders
00:25:31
the kayakers arrived after the shots were fired after the two were killed but like you said the pickup truck was there
00:25:38
at the time of the murders the pickup truck was there and the two victims Vehicles were in this lot as well and as
00:25:46
we can see on the detectives dashboard cam the pickup truck and victim's vehicles and kayakers were all still
00:25:53
there when he arrived on the scene and keep in mind I want to really hit this home for people that didn't watch the
00:26:01
Unsolved Mysteries or don't live in this area and don't know this area you can see the road and the parking lot from
00:26:07
the park bench where the shots were fired and also keep in mind that it's just after 5:00 pm on a Tuesday there
00:26:14
would have been a good amount of traffic there on that road and there's a bridge
00:26:19
somewhat nearby that would have a an angular but an overhead view of this park bench that
00:26:27
runs Bridge runs over the river so there would have been traffic on that bridge at that time as well the lack of
00:26:34
eyewitnesses or ear Witnesses is astounding in this case yeah you'd think somebody driving by would have heard
00:26:40
something or saw something but we have these two kayakers I I wonder what they call their kayak so
00:26:49
there are eyewitnesses we don't think they're ear Witnesses though right exactly no they
00:26:55
say they didn't see anybody on foot they didn't see any bicycle they didn't hear any shots so now we
00:27:01
just got to look for the individual that owns this pickup truck correct and he's
00:27:06
still on the scene when the police arrive this is a individual that is referred to on Unsolved Mysteries as the
00:27:15
roofer he is going to become an intricate part of this story in my mind because the detectives say he's the
00:27:26
first person of interest in the case because of a simple fact we know he was there before during and after the
00:27:34
murders keep in mind he's the only person that they can say at this time based off of evidence that he was there
00:27:44
before during and after the murders right like you said before we turned on the microphones as far as we know until we
00:27:52
find somebody else we only have three people that we know that were all there before during and after murders and two
00:27:58
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hp.com [Music] [Music] garage all right we are back talk hands in the air party to the people in the
00:33:24
back thanks for telling your mother and thanks for telling your brother cheers to you Colonel cheers to you
00:33:30
captain now I had said in episode 660 that there are cases that I think are more
00:33:38
frightening and of course all these cases and stories affect each and every one of us in a different manner but due
00:33:47
to the daylight public place yeah nature of this case I think this has a greater
00:33:54
effect on the on the overall masses when you think about it the parks are some are are areas that we all may frequent
00:34:03
they're all available to us if you live in such a great area that that has these
00:34:07
beautiful parks that you can go to and and even scarier bring your families to and you don't know who the others are
00:34:15
that may be showing up as well because they're they're open to the public and so I had said on episode 660 that there
00:34:21
are cases that I think are more frightening than others and when we talk about a double homicide this double
00:34:26
homicide that takes place place in broad daylight in a public place it certainly
00:34:31
makes one pause and really acknowledge that unfortunately this terrifying situation could happen to any of us at
00:34:39
any time right and I said it again at the start of this show they're shot and killed in daylight at a public place at
00:34:47
a time of day when we had a good amount of traffic on nearby roads right but people arriving at the park to
00:34:55
kayak right but what do we know about these killers they they're they get into these
00:35:01
modes of seeking out opportunities it's a a form of hunting humans in one of the cases I remember
00:35:11
them talking about this individual driving around and he's he's spotted at night on a college campus driving around
00:35:20
and they're like what are you doing and he's honest with them I'm looking for opportunity
00:35:28
this is part this is part of what happens and if you think I'm the only one out there doing
00:35:35
this you're insane and so I think there's um because we've seen in the last 10 years how many cases have been
00:35:46
connected to Parks I think it's a type of well let's go see if there's opportunity because
00:35:52
there's people and they're also in in the these Parks there's people in isolated areas and so I think
00:36:01
it's a form of looking for opportunities or just I think some of these killers they almost get off on the idea of just
00:36:11
seeing that there's a possibility well that that person could be a victim that could be a situation they might not
00:36:18
always act upon it but the essentially what they're doing is hunting humans you know we've
00:36:27
known throughout history that there have been a lot of cases where a perpetrator goes and and looks for a
00:36:37
lone female jogger in parks and I I also think that there's a little bit of I think there's
00:36:45
a bit of a hyperbolic nature to the alarm raised on these murders that happen in parks and I think a large
00:36:54
part of that is because it gets the the per the people's attention right and it it alarms everyone and so while it's
00:37:03
much more common to be killed on the streets or killed in a in a home by somebody that you
00:37:10
know these ones these Park cases tend to spread a little further and a little wider with the coverage because of the
00:37:19
public interest nature of the cases now back to this roofer as said by the detective he was the first person of
00:37:31
interest in the case because they knew that he was there before during and after the murders well what was he doing
00:37:36
well he was there working in the area earlier that day drove to find a place to park and to fill out work he he was
00:37:46
going to be busy doing paperwork right is the best way to describe it he was busy filling out work orders and
00:37:52
estimates and the Metro Police say that they took a really good look at him specifically they say that they took a
00:38:00
look at his electronics that he was carrying with him that day this would be his cell this would be his tablet and
00:38:06
he's working on a laptop or tablet and a cell phone in his pickup truck after 5:00 P p.m. parked in the parking lot
00:38:17
the gravel lot for this park that afternoon after 5:00 p.m and they say that based off of the electronics and
00:38:25
the information on all of those electronics that they can confirm that he was busy working on those activities
00:38:31
during the time of the murders so I guess they're saying his electronic devices are his Alibi now of course
00:38:41
they're going to ask him did you see anything did you hear anything right and he tells police he didn't hear anything
00:38:47
well we know three shots were fired he didn't hear anything and on Unsolved Mysteries Carnell's mother says quote I
00:38:57
question that and I think that's I think she's right I think she's spot on I would
00:39:03
question that too well do we have any way of knowing if a silencer was used in the killings
00:39:11
that is something that has been brought forward and not ruled out by law enforcement but I don't think that they
00:39:20
have anything telling them if or if not a silencer suppressor was used in the commission of these murders
00:39:29
what what they do tell us though is they are lacking a motive here in the case because there's
00:39:36
a couple things that really add to the complexity of this case one they don't know why the two were
00:39:46
meeting there that day the two victims right they do say that they've ruled out robbery as the motive because Nell's
00:39:55
wallet and two cell phones were found in his vehicle in plain sight like just sitting on the passenger seat to me too
00:40:02
his two cell phones he had a work cell phone and a personal cell phone so he has no cell phone on him when he's
00:40:07
sitting on the park bench and he doesn't even have his wallet all these items are
00:40:10
in plain view on the passenger seat of his car that to me backs up what the mother was saying that she's like I
00:40:17
think this was just a quick ve very brief hey we need to talk about something in person and I'll be on my
00:40:26
way to Gra Grandma's house cuz he didn't even bother to take his personal belongings out of the vehicle and they
00:40:32
also point out that that they did retrieve Kate's cell phone at the murder scene and I know we went into this a
00:40:40
little bit earlier but Nell was shot while sitting on the bench you brought up an interesting angle that the killer
00:40:47
may have come back and shot Nell once again but we we can figure out based off of the murder scene that was shot while
00:40:58
sitting on the bench Kate had just enough time to stand up and probably attempt to flee but if you look at the
00:41:06
crime scene yeah she's almost like a caged animal at this point right like she there's nowhere for her to go you
00:41:15
have the you have the river in front of her and the killer behind her and so I don't even know that she
00:41:23
had much of a chance to run because she she gets up from the bench and then the killer strikes and she's found in the
00:41:32
water just a few inches deep I've seen at least one report saying it was about 10 in deep where she was found in the
00:41:40
river so she may have just fallen in there or decided the best the only place I can go is away from the
00:41:50
Killer is toward the river but question to you does the actions that we see at the crime scene tell you anything on who
00:41:58
you believe the true victim was or or was there a Target yeah that that's been a question over and over
00:42:07
again and and some have suggested because Carnell was shot first that he was the target my my go-to on this is
00:42:15
typically look unfortunately females are targeted at a much higher percentage than males and we do know in certain
00:42:24
situations actually in many situations if there is a female victim and male victim the male victim poses the biggest
00:42:31
threat to the attacker and so often times the attacker will try to eliminate the threat first
00:42:39
and then go after the target so that makes it all of that thinking makes it very difficult to come up with who is
00:42:46
the the likely Target here and keep in mind if this is completely random then right they're just both the targets
00:42:53
you're not really going to be able to make any sense out of this but to me I I feel like that most most of these
00:43:00
homicides are isolated incidents and if it were to be that I I think that the prop the percentages are going to tell
00:43:09
you that Kate would have been the target Carell was the threat the killer eliminated the threat Carell was 6'4
00:43:16
like 225 230 pounds big dude and athletic like yeah he he's described as a big teddy bear because that was his
00:43:24
personality but to somebody that doesn't know him 6'4 I mean that that's that's somebody that if if if anybody was going
00:43:34
to defend in that situation it would be him yeah I almost believe that if it was
00:43:40
personable or if this was personal then this would give time for Kate to know who the killer was you see
00:43:50
what I'm saying so if if you truly hated her and wanted her dead and was following her from for some
00:44:01
reason and this this was a park that she went to often and would go on walks and
00:44:07
do other stuff so somebody could have just been following her and said hey she's going to the park this is
00:44:13
opportunity but by taking out Carell and she has at least time to go oh I know who my killer is if this is a
00:44:25
personal issue but that's it becomes so complex and so convoluted that you I don't know if you can even determine if
00:44:34
it was a personal attack or not if she had enough time to even turn around I mean this to me looks like very much
00:44:43
like a blitz right attack now we do know that the one of the detectives who is reported to be
00:44:51
either the first on the scene or one of the first officers on the scene said that he believes that the most likely
00:44:58
place that the killer came from were to be the either the parking lot or the road which I would like to point out
00:45:05
means almost coming from almost the exact same positioning and he says that he believes
00:45:14
that the evidence supports that the two victims were approached from behind and then shots were fired three in
00:45:21
total and like we said earlier the detectives seemed seem less confident regarding the suspect's route of
00:45:29
ESS all three bullet casings were found at the scene in the water they had dive teams out there that night and on at
00:45:38
least two other occasions no gun was ever found well wouldn't that possibly be evidenced that points that the the
00:45:47
shots came from the water or do you think it's a situation where the killer collected the casings and then dumped
00:45:55
them in the water no the bench was so close to the water that I think there's there would have been stippling on the
00:46:04
at least on Cardell likely on likely on Kate as well to suggest that this was fired at very close range the park bench
00:46:13
was very close I mean it's she's found in the water six feet from the park bench that's how close the water is to
00:46:20
this park bench I just I think that the bullet casings just were expended and shot out the side of the firearm and and
00:46:29
fell into the water well and obviously if we have these kayakers that are looking for a place to start their
00:46:36
kaying Journey there's along a a a river bed you're going to find areas that go into the
00:46:44
water and then ones that are more like little Cliffs if that makes any sense so this area like you said it seems to be
00:46:53
more like a entrance point to the water so maybe it's even possible that some of
00:47:01
these casins rolled down yeah or I mean who knows I mean the killer could have picked them up and tossed them into the
00:47:09
water for all we know but um the report is that the the casings were found in the water now that's important because
00:47:17
what it will tell us it doesn't tell us who the Killer is but it tells us what kind of gun they used what kind of
00:47:22
caliber they used and they would have uh ballistics right from from the bullets which without getting
00:47:31
into too much are at the scene obviously and now you have the casings as well well if I'm law enforcement and tell me
00:47:40
if I'm wrong I get to the scene I have two dead individuals we don't know why they were there they're not a couple
00:47:48
they don't really have a a history as far as like recent exes that were abusive I mean I mean I think they
00:47:57
have some e x's in their past that you might want to look into but I don't know if they're recent if that makes any
00:48:04
sense you have these kayakers and then we have this other individual the roofer and we know how the victims were killed
00:48:12
Yeah by gun so hey guys come down to the station with me I'd love to give you a polygraph test and as we do that test uh
00:48:21
I would also like to do some ballistics I want to see if there's evidence of you
00:48:26
firing a gun that day yeah well ballistics would be conducted on a firearm but no you could test a person
00:48:32
for gunpowder residue that's what I meant on on on their hands or their person you'd likely just their hands but
00:48:40
I was trying to sound sophisticated by using the wrong term in the aftermath of this here Captain what we end up with is
00:48:47
a double homicide that remains unsolved and the statements are all agreed upon by law enforcement that the two kayakers
00:48:55
found the bodies very short time after they were killed and immediately called 911 prior to that the killer escaped
00:49:02
unnoticed and there were no Witnesses right we have the roofer says he didn't see anything didn't hear anything okay
00:49:08
but but based on what the kayakers say where was the roofer when they showed up he's sitting in his pickup truck so
00:49:16
because I'm just okay if I'm just trying to be on his side it's not out of the realm of possibilities I've had plumbers
00:49:24
I've had construction people come to my house house handymen they do some work they have paperwork that they have to
00:49:32
send back to their company they might sit in your driveway for a while and do that they might sit in your neighborhood
00:49:39
I've actually seen a couple that drive down the street a little bit and then just sit there and fill out their
00:49:45
paperwork before they go to the next location it's very possible that he knew of this park he pulled in there and he
00:49:52
turned on the radio and was blasting some tunes mhm right and then he just didn't hear
00:49:59
anything and wasn't paying attention his his head was down the whole time but yes
00:50:04
but why wouldn't you again why wouldn't you just test to see if any of these three individuals fired a gun that day
00:50:14
well and the the thing here too is to back up what you're saying is I have had one of those jobs that required at the
00:50:23
end of the day yeah you're in a vehicle for for all of the day and then at the end of the day you're required to fill
00:50:30
out about a whole bunch of paperwork and enter information via your phone or a tablet and it can take 45
00:50:40
minutes to roughly an hour so often times I would either go to like a Wendy's and get like a coffee and just
00:50:47
kind of sit there and and fill it out if if it weren't such a nice day but if it
00:50:51
was a nice day out we know this to be a nice day I would find some place nice some place beautiful to park and just
00:50:59
fill everything out in the vehicle in the work vehicle and so that appears to be what he was doing or at least what he
00:51:07
claims to have been doing now the the FBI and the families they started off a reward for
00:51:14
information in this case it started at $20,000 it was increased over time to eventually get up to
00:51:22
$100,000 that there's some some puzzling things that we're going to get into about the
00:51:29
the investigation and the case but one thing that angered me that I expressed in episode 660 was the Brown family put
00:51:36
up signs at the park asking for tips and and these were brilliant signs it was like were you here or did you drive by
00:51:45
on this date between 58 and 522 and the these signs did lead to people calling in and providing tips now
00:51:57
the metrop parks got angry about these signs because they don't want to advertise that two people were murdered
00:52:02
in their park and so they the Brown family was forced to remove these signs which I I thought was absolutely
00:52:10
ridiculous if it look if you want to you can part of policing is is proactive right but some cases this one being a
00:52:23
great example of that is reactive there is I can't see there being any way of preventing this crime from a police
00:52:35
or the parks standpoint so rather than trying to for the Metro Park to want to hide and
00:52:44
conceal this from the people that might visit the park because they want the people to feel safe and they want people
00:52:49
to believe that the parks are safe I think what would give off a better sense of security to the people
00:52:55
in your community is that you solve the damn homicides you find the person that did
00:53:01
this and you therefore you are it's instructive to others that there's a consequence for this type of action and
00:53:09
it's going to be severe that's the best way to be proactive for a case such as this now in
00:53:19
defense of the FBI they did put up some Billboards along busy highways with information about the cas
00:53:26
is requesting tips from the general [Music] public so much more to get to in part
00:53:48
two join us back here in the garage until then be good be kind and don't litter [Music]
00:54:30
[Music] hey friends Ted Danson here and I want to let you know about my new podcast
00:54:36
it's called where everybody knows your name with me Ted Danson and Woody harelson sometimes doing this podcast is
00:54:43
a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years
00:54:48
ago plus we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since like Jane Fonda Conan O'Brien Eric Andre Mary
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steber virgin my wife and flee from the Red Hot Chili Peppers and trust me it's always a great hang when Woody's there
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so why wait listen to where everybody knows your name wherever you get your podcasts