00:00:05
itself [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:00:50
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that well he no longer watches the Browns but when he
00:00:56
does they still lose he is the captain because they always lose it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for
00:01:03
listening thanks for telling my friend [Music] this week we are drinking Shiner holiday
00:01:13
cheer garage grade 4 out of five bottle caps Shiner holiday cheer is Bavarian style
00:01:20
dark wheat ale Dunkle Vice and brood with Texas peaches and roasted pecans may your days be merry and bright and
00:01:28
may all your beers be as delicious as this one and this great glass of holiday cheer was brought to us by These Fine
00:01:34
people right here first up in the garage beer fans Farah and her father Marty down in Pflugerville Texas Pflugerville
00:01:41
snugerville next up we have Edna Edna gave us a check and we can't cash the check but uh we
00:01:51
wanted to give our cheers anyways Edna this one is for you next up we have Kent in Atlanta Georgia oh wait Kent
00:01:58
requested a shout out from the captain so please sir do your thing Kent next we have Valerie and Harrisonburg
00:02:07
Virginia and next up we have Danielle and silver bell Washington Silverdale Silverdale
00:02:16
snugerville next we have Bonnie and Chino California time to drink on the beer and last but
00:02:26
not least Captain a big shout out and thank you to Melissa in Three Bridges New Jersey so thanks to everybody for
00:02:32
filling up the fridge for this week's show if you want to help us out with next week's Beer Run go to True Crime
00:02:37
garage.com click on that donate button bwe Double R you win beer run so kind of interesting how we got this week's case
00:02:45
suggestion we went to go see the black belt of comedians Michael lanochi and he has known worldwide as the greatest
00:02:52
kicking stand-up comedian of all time and while we were there we got the chance to speak with him and Captain
00:02:58
this was not a suggested case he threatened us he threatened us with his kicking belt and the kicking and the
00:03:05
comedy the kicking Styles he also has a podcast called guys night out so check that out you can see him on tour he's
00:03:12
opening up for The Elder himself the Cuda the um want to fire him crystalia and Mike was not the only one
00:03:21
to suggest this case this is a pretty popular case we've gotten a lot of suggestions for it because it's been
00:03:26
covered on the confession tapes on Netflix yeah this is a case that's confusing and there's a lot of things
00:03:32
that aren't clear a lot of things to sift through it's going to leave you maybe a little angry but hopefully we
00:03:38
can get to the bottom of this and that's why you want to gather around because we're going to break it down for you so
00:03:43
we can break it down grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music]
00:03:57
thank you foreign [Music] foreign [Music] 1994 just after 2 A.M Bellevue Washington Police Department
00:04:39
are called to a crime scene teenagers Sebastian Burns and Atif for Faye returned to atif's family's home
00:04:48
which is located in a quiet upper middle class area of Bellevue when they arrive they stumbled onto a
00:04:54
horrific scene atif's parents and sister had been brutally attacked Sebastian Burns called 9-1-1 asking for
00:05:04
an ambulance [Music] [Applause] [Applause] as president I understand just calm down well I I don't
00:06:09
think it's safe here I want that we'll be outside okay go ahead go ahead now please fast okay they're on the way okay
00:06:16
we'll be outside okay go ahead foreign [Music] as the young men waited for help to
00:06:33
arrive atif's older sister basma was clinging to life moaning in her bedroom detective Bob Thompson was one of the
00:06:42
officers that responded to the scene of the attacks according to him it appeared atif's
00:06:48
mother was the first to be killed atif's father was the next to be murdered active Thompson said it was Overkill and
00:06:57
it looked like someone had hit the man 40 or 50 times patif's sister died at the hospital just
00:07:04
a few hours after the attack unable to tell the detectives who had attacked her this is the true East murders
00:07:18
[Music] the clip that was played there the 9-1-1 call that is 18 year old Sebastian Burns
00:07:36
calling to report that when he had returned with his friend Atif back to their home back to the thief's home that
00:07:43
they found atif's mother and father very badly beaten to the point that they believed them to be dead they found
00:07:50
atif's sister very badly beaten um near death and they're calling in they're asking
00:07:58
for police they're asking for ambulance they're asking for help they're afraid that whoever did this whoever
00:08:04
perpetrated this attack may still be in the home and they decide to go and wait outside until the police arrive
00:08:14
now I've read some reports here that state that the police did have a little trouble finding the location of the
00:08:20
crime scene finding the home that they were calling about uh and as we stated Sebastian and Atif would have been
00:08:27
outside waiting for the police and they had to flag down the police to show them
00:08:32
where in fact the house was a little background here captain on the rafay family the rafae family was the
00:08:40
the family that was attacked so the rafe family of four had just moved to Bellevue Washington from Vancouver
00:08:47
Canada the father Tariq rafay was a very talented structural engineer who had worked on buildings all over the world
00:08:57
the mother Sultana she had a doctorate in nutrition and but she devoted her life to raising her
00:09:05
children this is basma and Atif I mean similar to me I mean having my doctorate but I I continue to work on
00:09:12
the podcast I have many doctorates from many of the highest um the highest of points like Mount
00:09:19
Everest from some of the best universities on both the east and west coast but enough
00:09:26
about me right um Sebastian and Atif they had been best friends since high school both of them
00:09:32
were very I can you know I've I've seen interviews with these guys read stuff with these guys I can honestly say they
00:09:41
are very smart young men um probably more intelligent than me even though I hold all those doctorates
00:09:47
from many very distinguished universities now Sebastian was raised in a loving family with English roots and
00:09:55
grew up playing classical cello he became a member of the Royal Canadian Air Cadets and was given an award by
00:10:03
Prince Edward like we said both of these guys are intellectuals but the other problem with these two guys is they
00:10:10
actually believe that they are smarter than probably what they are and smarter than everybody they assume a lot of
00:10:17
times that they are smart they're the smartest guy in the room yeah that just kind of
00:10:22
that kind of just bleeds through them doesn't it when you when you when you see them speaking and everybody knows
00:10:28
that kind of guy in high school where where you know he's smart all your friends know he's smart but it's the
00:10:33
fact that he puts himself on a pedestal that you're just like yeah you know seriously there's an arrogance
00:10:40
about both of these young men it stinks Atif attended uh Cornell University so he he is in his summer year of college
00:10:49
right Cornell is an Ivy League school but it was the only Ivy League school that accepted him so it wasn't like he
00:10:56
had a bunch of options so let's as far as Ivy League schools go let's clean up this background information here a
00:11:03
little bit before we move into the crime and the crime scene um so the rafae family of four had just
00:11:11
moved to Bellevue Washington from Vancouver Canada during this time three people were living in the refae home
00:11:19
Atif is away at college and his friend Sebastian still lives up in Canada now during this night on this night when
00:11:28
they find atif's parents murdered and his sister attacked Atif had been staying he had been
00:11:35
visiting his family from college for a few nights and his best friend from high school Sebastian came down to visit him
00:11:42
while he was staying in Bellevue Washington Washington obviously much closer to Vancouver than Cornell
00:11:48
University so the two friends Atif and Sebastian had been out for a night out on the town
00:11:54
when they returned to atif's home and they discovered that this attack had occurred so let's take a look at what
00:12:00
went down and the crime scene is there any evidence to tell us who the perpetrator or perpetrators are what are
00:12:08
the investigator suspicions and what are they finding at the crime scene and we can do that as we go through this uh
00:12:14
sort of timeline here starting with the 2 A.M marker on July 13 1994. so as we said Sebastian and Atif discovered the
00:12:24
bodies of atif's parents and they call 9-1-1 this is roughly at 2 A.M and we know this because the 9-1-1 call comes
00:12:31
in at 201 am now a Chief's sister bossma she then shortly later dies in the hospital from
00:12:41
injuries inflicted from that attack from the time that the boys found the bodies
00:12:46
until 8 30 a.m that morning Sebastian and Atif are up all night with police mostly at the Bellevue Police Department
00:12:56
during this time they are each interviewed separately twice when asked where they had been that
00:13:03
evening the boys provided a full account stating that at 8 30 PM they drove to a
00:13:09
place called The Keg restaurant for a bite to eat they had a salad and they each had a glass of wine
00:13:16
then they went to a 9 50 p.m showing of the movie The Lion King after the movie they stopped for uh they
00:13:26
stopped off at a club and they left the waitress a tip a six dollar tip on a nine dollar tab
00:13:34
I've actually I've seen this these numbers reported slightly different on this uh what their tab was and what
00:13:41
their tip was the General thought is that they left uh what would be considered to be a high a noticeably
00:13:51
High tip for whatever they purchased at that club Sebastian and Atif provided police with their clothing that they
00:13:58
wore that evening they were both examined by um an alternative light source for evidence of blood spatter and examined
00:14:07
for gunshot residue when both tests come up negative correct the first thing that troubled police was
00:14:15
how could Sebastian and Atif provide so much detail about where they had been that evening but not recall key moments
00:14:23
at the murder scene well I mean I think one of the explanations would be you know you got
00:14:30
fight or flight and you know anytime and they flew yes yes they flew and I think
00:14:37
then it's the idea of what can you remember because you're in shock I mean it's like the 9-1-1 call and we can
00:14:44
break that down later but uh some people see somebody that's trying to lie or put
00:14:49
on a show and some people see um somebody that is in complete shock and has no clue what to do well here's
00:14:56
my thoughts on their I personally I think this is a weird thing for the police to say that this drew some
00:15:03
suspicion for them how could they provide so much detail about what they had been doing that evening but not
00:15:09
recall key moments at the murder scene and and I need to be a little more clear but about what they mean by that but
00:15:15
let's get into that here because first of all we we see that they're at a restaurant at 8 30 p.m they're not
00:15:23
according to their story they do not return home till 2 A.M okay so that's five and a half hours yeah you can
00:15:30
provide a lot of detail of something you were doing for five and a half hours right when they returned to the crime
00:15:36
scene when they found atif's parents it would have been a matter of minutes by the time they would have called 9-1-1
00:15:42
and went to that fight or flight mode and flew out of the home and and remained out by the curb to wait for
00:15:48
police to arrive so you're talking about a comparison of five and a half hours to
00:15:52
a matter of minutes of course you're going to get more detail from something that you spent that amount of time on
00:15:58
yeah so the story is that they got home roughly about two o'clock and then when they entered the home they're probably
00:16:04
only in the home for about three minutes until the 9-1-1 call was placed right so
00:16:10
I personally for me I don't see anything weird about not knowing that this is where it does get a little weird though
00:16:17
when when they are taking when they're going through the crime scene and they're going through the home
00:16:23
they're asking a thief and Sebastian if if they had touched any of the victims and Atif can't remember like most the
00:16:33
time he's saying I might have touched my mom I don't think I did no I don't think I did and that's
00:16:41
basically how he answers when he's he's questioned about his mother and his father I may have but I don't think I
00:16:48
did no I probably did not I understand that we have a situation where he's probably very much in shock
00:16:57
um I have a hard time believing that he wouldn't be aware if he touched his if he touched any of the victims
00:17:04
and why would this be a key thing for the police well and this is why I think he could be
00:17:11
vague about it if he is trying to hide something you would rather be vague about whether you touched one of the
00:17:16
victims than to give a definitive answer because they're going to be able to do tests on you like we said testing for
00:17:24
blood spatter testing for gunshot residue they're going to do tests on you that will determine whether you are
00:17:32
being honest about having touched the victims or not sometimes the honest answer is I don't know now detectives
00:17:40
also point out that the killer or killers may have known the victims and obviously
00:17:47
we come across this with the every case that we cover that's always a possibility and usually it's a
00:17:52
likelihood they could find no signs of forced entry and that is going to be something that
00:18:00
could be key here because remember on the 9-1-1 call the first thing that Sebastian says is there
00:18:08
appears to have been some sort of break-in there the police are unable to find any
00:18:13
signs of forced entry so what does that mean well could could the killer or Killers have gained access to the home
00:18:21
without breaking in possible possible people leave their doors unlocked people figure out ways to
00:18:27
get into homes could The Killers or killer have known the victims and were let into the home
00:18:33
that's a possibility as well gained access to the home through one of the victims themselves
00:18:40
right or they got lucky and there was this the door was unlocked or did the killer killers were they already inside
00:18:48
the home when the attack went down they didn't need to gain entry into the home so those are your options there if you
00:18:56
cannot find a sign of of obvious break-in this the thought that the perpetrators may have known the victims
00:19:03
also comes up in this fact of the crime scene so detective Thompson would say that the mother atif's mother was
00:19:11
attacked first she was downstairs and then we have the father who was upstairs presumably sleeping
00:19:19
that he was attacked second in his bed and how were these individuals attacked um it it had appeared that it would have
00:19:26
been with with the thief's mother anyway that it would have been a like a blitz attack that she probably was surprised
00:19:34
and struck with a heavy object right so a hammer or a baseball bat or something like that yeah board anything like that
00:19:43
um that same weapon was used again on atif's Father upstairs in the bedroom as he lies sleeping that would be a sneak
00:19:50
attack pretty much that he was unaware that he was being attacked probably did not hear his wife having been attacked
00:19:57
just before him so the father though was was brutalized I mean he was hit Thompson said 40 or 50
00:20:07
times let's go back to the mom real quick okay because she was hit she was dead her face was covered somebody
00:20:14
covered her face probably afterwards and she was Facing East which uh this is a Muslim family so that would be the
00:20:23
direction in which they pray so then let's go to the father so she was kind of killed but almost shown some
00:20:32
kind of respect after the murder I guess uh if that makes any sense and then the father is just bludgeon not
00:20:41
only bludgeoned he was he was destroyed the killer didn't want to just to to kill atif's father
00:20:48
that person wanted to destroy him like I said detective Thompson saying it looked
00:20:52
like he had been hit 40 or 50 times and whatever object was used to kill the man
00:20:59
had sprayed matter yeah there's blood everywhere yeah not just blood we got we got blood we got teeth we got pieces of
00:21:09
bone skin flesh there's there's matter all over sprayed all over that room from wherever he was hit and then pulled back
00:21:17
up again struck again and every time you do that it's bringing a little bit with
00:21:22
it when you pull it back up and it's spraying it on the walls and the ceiling of this bedroom then we have the sister
00:21:28
the older atif's older sister basma who is attacked last and we haven't brought it up yet but his sister is uh she's
00:21:35
autistic yeah and I don't know the I don't know the severity of her autism and I bring that up because of a
00:21:45
statement that the police made I want to be very clear this is the police statement that's different there's
00:21:50
different spectrums yeah so the police's statement would be that this points again that the killer knew
00:21:59
the family that knew the family well to the point that they would have attacked the parents first and killed the parents
00:22:07
first attacking the sister last knowing that she would be unable to call 9-1-1 right that's what the police had stated
00:22:17
now to the 9-1-1 call Captain remember we had stated Sebastian said there was some type of break-in and I
00:22:24
want to talk about what the detectives say that they are seeing at the home not only no sign of forced entry but also
00:22:31
just looking at the room and rooms of the home they're stating that it appears to the detectives
00:22:39
that boxes were okay so the home they had recently moved there right so you have a lot of boxes that have not been
00:22:46
unpacked and put away these items have not been put away yet right so whoever broke into this home quote unquote broke
00:22:54
into this home they didn't appear to have sifted through items that were still in
00:23:01
the boxes um the detective said that it looked like they just tipped over boxes yeah
00:23:06
that they didn't really go through anything the drawers were open but nobody it just looked like so people
00:23:12
open up the drawer maybe looked inside didn't didn't rummage around didn't pull anything out
00:23:17
yes so go ahead right Atif is the one that's going to say well my walkman's missing I think
00:23:24
the VCR is missing yes but this is also individual yes he is the son of the the parents that were murdered but he hasn't
00:23:34
lived in this property for a long time you know he's been away at school so like you said first of all the house
00:23:42
isn't put together you know fully yet yeah from the move and then you have an individual that's
00:23:48
only been there for a couple days so now you're trying to say hey what's missing
00:23:52
well that's a lot easier to do when the house is put together but when the house isn't put together it
00:23:58
all looks like stuff's missing yeah here's the thing though I I kind of I'm gonna go with the and if if for
00:24:06
anybody out there that is unfamiliar with this case you can see what road we're going down here it's starting to
00:24:13
look like the police have suspicions regarding Atif and Sebastian right okay and that's why we're going
00:24:20
through these crime scene items one at a time now I have to kind of go with the the places if they're being honest if
00:24:27
they're being unbiased in their opinion I have to go with their belief when they
00:24:32
say you know it looks like people kind of staged this break and I because they would have seen robberies and and
00:24:39
burglaries a hundred times you know you you you're a detective you've been on the force for quite some time by the
00:24:46
time you're a detective and you've seen break-ins you've seen uh this kind of thing go down and when it doesn't look
00:24:52
right when it doesn't pass the smell test it it looks like a setup to these guys
00:24:57
it looks like a staged burglary well like I said there's a couple problems first problem is they just moved into
00:25:04
the property and the stuff is not put away so yeah you might have seen a bunch of you know break-ins and burglaries
00:25:11
before but how many times have you seen one where somebody's just moving in my other issue with the police going down
00:25:18
this road is the idea that you don't know what this person that might have you know they might have broken to kill
00:25:25
you but there was a reason why they was rummaging through your stuff and that reason could be a stack of papers or
00:25:33
something that you would have no there'd be no clear evidence that this item is now missing
00:25:40
you bring up a very good point there Captain so we have a chief stating that his Walkman was was taken a VCR was
00:25:49
taken from the home which seems crazy to have three people murdered just to take a vcr and a
00:25:54
Walkman um but you bring up a very good point we have three of the four family members are
00:26:01
dead these people had just moved there you're right there are items they could have
00:26:05
had that if if a teeth can't say okay this item's missing that item's missing this
00:26:12
stack of papers is missing we had um some jewelry that was missing if he doesn't report something as not being
00:26:19
still at the home the detectives are going to have no clue that other additional items are actually missing
00:26:25
from the home right like you said I mean you know his father was an engineer and
00:26:29
he was working on some uh pretty interesting stuff so we'll get back to that after the break but you know again
00:26:35
with the mother he's not going to know if a piece of jewelry is missing or something like that I tell you what I I
00:26:41
lived with my father in my teenage years I lived with my mother before that and I
00:26:47
couldn't have told you you know if somebody broke in our home and stole half my mom's jewelry I wouldn't be able
00:26:51
to tell you what any of it was you know my father had guns in the home when we grew up and right machine guns all kinds
00:26:59
of cannons cannons um hand cannons I and you know what he um fancies himself a bit of a collector I I wouldn't be able
00:27:07
to tell you if the guy's got two guns or if he has 10. you know what I mean I just don't
00:27:12
know it's not my personal belonging so um yeah I would have no clue you bring up a very good point there well we'll
00:27:19
get right back to my amazing points and the point on your head right after this quick beer break
00:27:23
[Music] all right we're back cheers mates cheers to you Captain so we have the 9-1-1 call
00:27:44
to talk about um anything that you find anything that jumps off the page to you immediately
00:27:50
regarding the 9-1-1 call no uh and I wish we had a clearer version I hate when we have a kind of crappy audio but
00:27:59
I think you can decipher it enough uh again I think this is a weird situation you know either you think
00:28:06
Sebastian is lying or you just think he is uh Disturbed or he's out of his mind so Sebastian's the one making the call
00:28:14
Atif presumably is in the home with him when this call is going down and we hear
00:28:20
immediately Sebastian sounds to be confused or stuttering um in a state of panic or shock
00:28:30
that's what I hear that's my you know that's my general thought on his behavior now I have seen several
00:28:39
interviews with with Sebastian I've also seen a videotape footage of him speaking
00:28:45
several times he does on occasion have a little bit of a stutter a little bit of
00:28:51
a stammer um so that's not doesn't it doesn't seem to be my thing is Captain I was trying to
00:28:59
figure out was this a put on was he putting this on this this act so I have to give him the benefit of the
00:29:05
doubt there and I don't feel like it's a total put on now one thing that I did find weird is several times he starts to
00:29:15
say something and then kind of stops and re kind of re-gears himself you know where
00:29:21
he'll start to say [Applause] um the two which it sounded like he was about to say the two adults or the two
00:29:29
parents um and then he says uh my my friend's parents both of them he's he struggles
00:29:38
to find the right words and then he says we think they're dead he just we think they're dead very fast like that right
00:29:44
which I don't know maybe I'm maybe I'm putting this under the microscope too much here
00:29:49
because I don't know it's hard to say how anybody would react in this situation but I do feel like where where
00:29:56
the stutter and where the stammer might not be a put on I question is he choosing his words and why would you
00:30:03
take the time to choose your words especially when you end the call saying right very fast fast right but he might
00:30:09
not be actually choosing his words it might just be he's in the moment of speaking but because he's in such shock
00:30:16
he he is trying to edit himself and his brain because his brain is not functioning correctly and uh you know
00:30:24
the interview with him is he said I was out of my mind when I was making that call so
00:30:30
possibly you know you might not even remember the call the the fact of the matter is you got two boys that walk
00:30:35
into a situation this is their accounts they see the dead mother they go up now now you have to check on
00:30:45
the father he is brutally murdered unrecognizable he would be unrecognizable maybe even as a
00:30:55
you might not even recognize him as a person at that point right um and then you and yeah and that room's
00:31:03
completely covered in blood and then you gotta check on your sister but before you get to the point where
00:31:09
you're checking on your sister you can hear her and you know so one would assume that
00:31:19
you would run to her Aid to help her but uh also you might again it's the fight or flight mentality and if your
00:31:27
body tells you to to fly out of there there's nothing you can do yeah so let's be clear about that his
00:31:35
Atif sister was still alive during the the call of the 9-1-1 she didn't die until they got her back to the hospital
00:31:41
right um but how much the boys the boys and I keep calling them boys they're 18 year
00:31:48
old young men at this point right um but they're very sheltered this is uh this is upper middle class and online
00:31:55
they're offered would often report uh referred to as the boys as well so I think that's why that seeped into my
00:32:01
psyche here but so so Sebastian and Atif well hold on I was saying that their upper middle class I think that's
00:32:07
important here yeah because these are 18 year old kids that were sheltered very sheltered and uh I'd argued to say that
00:32:16
they're just upper class kids yeah yeah I found I found that we're weird when they described them as upper
00:32:22
middle class and then I saw the neighborhood and the homes in the neighborhood and I thought well if
00:32:27
that's upper I always thought I was middle class and when they said their upper middle class I thought wow I'm
00:32:32
poor as dirt we have a we have a podcast in the garage yeah yeah you know the homes were very nice and that's a very
00:32:40
nice neighborhood so to me that looks like an upper class let's all right let's get it right and thief's dad was
00:32:46
an engineer so I mean he has his Doctorate I mean he's doing well for himself but they did
00:32:54
not help his sister they did not help his dying sister right but it wasn't again that's
00:33:00
you know so and sometimes you can say that and makes it seem so bad I didn't help the dying sister
00:33:08
she was in a state that neither one of them could have done anything without they they had no medical training
00:33:16
so it wasn't like they could really do anything to help her do you think they even opened the door to her room
00:33:22
me I I think they did that's one thing I question because I I couldn't find I could find parts of
00:33:29
their interview where they where Atif was being asked if he had touched the body of his mother or his father I
00:33:36
couldn't find any parts of the actual interview where he was being asked questions directly about his sister yeah
00:33:44
well I think he said he knew there was nothing he could do to help her right that's that that's the only part I
00:33:49
couldn't find you know well his statement was I don't even know how to put it you know I don't even know how to
00:33:54
put a Band-Aid on or something like that which I think was kind of a dumb statement but this was also in a
00:34:00
situation where it's like if I came into the garage and somebody bludgeoned you and you're hanging on to dear life I
00:34:07
can't do nothing so I have two options uh sit there in the room I could call and sit in the room with you
00:34:16
and you know lose my appetite or I call the police and I step in the other room and you know pray to God that the
00:34:25
ambulance gets there quick enough to save you because I don't have the means in order to save you yeah I I just
00:34:32
wanted to hear from his from his mouth that they had in fact opened the door and in some form checked on her now
00:34:40
here's the other thing yeah I I don't know if I definitively ever saw him or heard him say that I also wanted to hear
00:34:47
him say definitively that he touched the body of his sister because you here's what I'm what I'm getting at for him to
00:34:55
to lay out the assessment that I could there was nothing I could do there's nothing we could do to help her or to
00:35:02
save her I want there to be some kind of uh investigation by him to arrive to that
00:35:10
conclusion right but there was also the statement by uh Sebastian that we think that somebody is in the house or
00:35:19
possibly is in the house So based on their story these two guys go in they find the mom they find the dad then
00:35:26
there's the sister they hear the sister or maybe they see the Sister We're Not really clear on that
00:35:33
but for whatever reason when they go outside to make the 9-1-1 call they don't flee the scene
00:35:40
right they say we're here we're gonna flag you down and we're staying outside because we think that maybe this killer
00:35:50
is still there and then police want to come out and say well that's a little odd don't you think why would you just
00:35:55
hang out outside if you think the Killer's in the house well look again there might be 18 year
00:36:02
old uh young men but they're naive and they they could be as intellectual as they want these guys are not street
00:36:09
smart at all these guys are very sheltered so uh if it's me and I walk into the house
00:36:17
and there's this attack and I call the police and I say hey you get here the police probably should tell you hey you
00:36:23
might want to go outside the person might still be in the house and there might be some evidence some noise that
00:36:30
they heard that they were they went oh [ __ ] oh [ __ ] do you hear something in
00:36:33
the basement somebody might be in the house I'm finding a weapon and I'm going outside
00:36:40
and I'm giving myself some space and I'm going to keep my eyes on that house and
00:36:44
if somebody comes out of that house you know it's go time You Gotta Fight for Your Life at that point you have three
00:36:50
dead people inside well and you you've made the right call essentially because remember you know when I worked security
00:36:57
for years one thing that they taught us was if you are trying to protect someone
00:37:02
okay let's say there's a break-in kung fu let's say there's a break into the garage right now okay and let's pretend
00:37:10
that this garage has many different rooms and we keep pretending the garage this episode in a couple different
00:37:16
levels as well wouldn't it be great if the garage actually did have several levels anyway
00:37:22
one day my friend um four levels so if somebody came into the garage and they wanted to harm or
00:37:30
kill you okay right doubt it but let me tell you what what my training what what we were
00:37:36
taught during this training was that unless you have unless you have some kind of setup where you have like a
00:37:43
Panic Room which most homes would not have a Panic Room not not a real legit Panic Room not telling you if I have one
00:37:51
or not but what I'm saying is that if my job is to protect you from anything I'm
00:37:57
I'm your security you have to listen to this all right I hope my security works out a little bit
00:38:04
more no but what the training taught us or has big weapons was that if my job is
00:38:09
to protect you against anything and somebody breaks into this home or to a place where you are staying and I am
00:38:15
guarding you my number one object my number one [Applause] um objective is to get you outside
00:38:24
unless there's a legit Panic Room the numbers say that as soon as I get you outside out of that building rather than
00:38:32
trying to hide you in a closet somewhere or rather than try to hide you in a room
00:38:36
that's far away from the break-in point right that your your numbers of living and surviving that break-in and that
00:38:44
attack significantly increase if I get you outside so you in fact did the right thing and they in fact be it that they'd
00:38:53
be naive 18 year olds in fact did the right thing the the thing that I keep going back to though is what how much
00:39:00
information did they collect regarding the sister before they decided that the the one there's nothing we can do
00:39:07
for her before we flee the home and two we can't flee the home with because there's a chance that if if
00:39:13
she's in a certain State you might be able to bring her with you out of the house right and and that didn't happen
00:39:19
as well and and I think where the police are questioning their moves are they're
00:39:25
saying well yes you went outside but you were you're like you're like 20 feet 20 25 feet you know
00:39:32
uh from the home right but what do you want them to do run you run a couple blocks away what what do you want them
00:39:40
to do well actually thank God they didn't because they wouldn't have been there to flag down the police right
00:39:46
um so no I'm not saying that that's I'm not questioning what they did I'm bringing up the police in the in the
00:39:52
investigators thoughts and suspicions on their moves throughout that evening right and that's just their opinions of
00:39:58
what they think this means or that means oh what was his demeanor on the 9-1-1 call what was their demeanor when we got
00:40:05
there this is all speculation do we have any actual evidence yeah well uh bust out the luminol this whole place is a
00:40:12
crime scene so they're going to use the luminol to spray down uh the crime scene
00:40:17
they're looking for evidence of blood that's been washed away don't ever say that at a party hey
00:40:23
the luminar it's time to party um but what they find here and this is very troubling they when they conduct
00:40:32
this test it showed an enormous amount of Blood on the shower walls so the killer had used the shower before
00:40:40
leaving the killer popped in the shower washed himself herself off and then left
00:40:47
the scene and now the police are wondering this okay this is a very this is not a
00:40:55
normal thing to go down at a at a murder scene at a triple homicide scene right um so this again is going to lead them
00:41:05
back to the thought that the the attacker knew the family and knew the family intimately knew them to the point
00:41:11
where they could they would have access to the home and they would also not be in such a hurry to leave the home that
00:41:18
they would clean themselves up before leaving the home right and like you said this is not very typical but we have
00:41:25
tons of blood in the room that the father was killed in tons of blood we have tons of splatter everywhere yeah so
00:41:32
if the killer had left the home in the clothes that they arrived in that they wore during the attack and didn't bother
00:41:38
to wash themselves off you would see a person covered in blood from head to toe leaving the crime scene right and
00:41:46
leaving evidence as they went so possibly this is this is something that could be considered like a hit type
00:41:54
move Killer goes in kills its victims cleans itself cleans themselves up um and we have hairs found in the shower as
00:42:03
well and those hairs that they're going to find they're going to find over 20 some hairs in that shower and that's
00:42:10
going to be of Sebastian Burns but he was staying at the house for three days prior right so there's your reason
00:42:19
why if there is going to be any hairs in that shower that's reasons why well let's let's talk about why the I
00:42:27
mean we are it's obvious why the killer would take a shower but let's talk about like what you said
00:42:32
if this was a hit or if somebody had came in to kill the family for some reason it it has happened in other crimes
00:42:41
there's other crimes that I've read about where the killer has in fact done something that was totally unnecessary
00:42:47
at a crime scene where they've they've killed people and then they they decided to sit in the kitchen and drink a few
00:42:53
beers before they left or they had a bowl of cereal or they took a they took a shower to clean themselves up or
00:43:01
I'm just joking but but you would have think about this if somebody was planning if someone had
00:43:09
planned this murder and somebody had watched the family because the first thing you got a question is your
00:43:14
immediate thought would be as soon as you kill this family that you would want to flee the scene as fast as possible to
00:43:21
evade capture right that's your immediate first thought but if I had been watching this family
00:43:27
and I had been planning to kill this family now keep in mind maybe I did my surveillance on the home and on the
00:43:35
family the week before in my in my surveillance ended I watched them for a a course of three or four
00:43:43
days the week before well according to my surveillance my belief would be my knowledge
00:43:52
would tell me that only three people live in that home right and so having just killed all three of them I may not
00:43:59
be in a huge hurry to leave the home I I might take a bunch of noise right I might take the time to clean myself up
00:44:07
if I brought a duffel bag with a with a change of clothes in that duffel bag annihilated this family hopped in the
00:44:15
shower threw my bloody clothes in the duffel bag put on the fresh clothes walked out of there all you would see is
00:44:21
one very handsome very clean man walking out with the duffel bag right that's um
00:44:29
it's opinion but so what I'm getting at is it's not impossible it doesn't have to be a thief
00:44:36
or Sebastian or the two of them having lived there or staying there that took the shower right so the the cops are
00:44:42
again and let's reiterate the fact that the cops then questioned them for hours they do test there's no trace of blood I
00:44:50
mean one would argue that oh well they took a shower so that's why there's no blood because they washed it all off
00:44:56
there's a lot of blood a lot of blood I would I would actually have to argue that some might have to take quite a
00:45:04
long shower to make sure they didn't have any any blood on them and so again these guys are not Mastermind
00:45:14
killers that we know of so would they would they even know uh if they had any residue left on them who
00:45:22
knows well I think but I think therein lies the problem is that let's say Atif and Sebastian are totally innocent and
00:45:29
all they did was stumble onto a crime scene the problem here is you find nothing on these guys you would actually
00:45:36
if they were just victims that had stumbled onto a crime scene you would I would actually believe that I would find
00:45:41
something on them and and to me that is why it looks very suspicious it's not so much that why would you find
00:45:50
something on them because some of those rooms were covered in in blood the the father's bedroom was
00:45:56
covered in in matter right and I'm sure whatever shoes they're wearing had evidence on them but because they were
00:46:04
at the crime scene cops never reported that but if you just walk into rooms and you
00:46:10
don't touch anything then what are they going to find on you I just other than your shoes I do have a
00:46:16
hard time believing that they wouldn't have touched anything and I don't necessarily mean a victim
00:46:21
um again but this is these are upper class kids they're sheltered I'm talking about who cares about sheltered or not
00:46:27
sheltered I'm talking about if I walk into a room and I see a dead body whether I choose to run up and hug it
00:46:33
what no what I'm saying is whether whether I choose to to investigate further and touch the body or not I
00:46:39
probably wouldn't what I'm saying is if I walked into a room and I found someone
00:46:43
dead whether it be a family member or not there's a good chance I might have to grab a wall to brace myself from
00:46:49
falling over I might have to go down to one knee because I'm I'm in total shock right but who says that it that they
00:46:56
didn't the blood evidence says that they didn't no you just they didn't touch the
00:47:04
evidence you know I mean so and then the other thing well they wouldn't have they
00:47:07
didn't do it in the father's bedroom right but that could be as simple as them walking in and I mean you don't
00:47:13
have to walk into that room to see that guy's dead no I I know that I know that but what I'm saying is I I find it very
00:47:21
strange that given the description of the crime scene and how much blood there was that these guys had nothing on them
00:47:29
but they're in the house for how long or so probably three probably three to four
00:47:33
minutes so right so within three three to four minutes you're making a call to 9-1-1 and they're waiting outside on the
00:47:40
curb right but I don't have to convince you I'm just telling you my suspicions this this seems very suspicious to me no
00:47:46
no I I get the Leaning that way but look I like I'm saying I think there's that there's an OB
00:47:53
there's a explanation for that because one the first person you're seeing is not so brutal and then the next I think
00:48:00
you know if they're telling this truth that once they got to the father's room that that was it that was the Tipping
00:48:08
Point this is awful and we need to get out of here but it but to add to your point with
00:48:15
them being uh you say sheltered I actually think with them being sheltered that they would be even more shocked and
00:48:22
even more unable to control themselves at the at the crime scene yeah but I think that's what led them to the flight
00:48:30
mentality you know what I mean they I think it was quickly let's get the hell out of here
00:48:36
we don't know what's going on here and if somebody is um the Killer is still here we need to get out of here
00:48:44
uh way more so than and then maybe somebody else the initial questioning of Sebastian and Atif ends at 8 30 a.m that
00:48:52
day when an officer takes the two men to buy clothes they go remember they provided the clothes to the detectives
00:49:00
so they need something to wear they take them to buy some clothes and they take them to eat breakfast afterwards the
00:49:06
officer takes Sebastian and Atif to the Bellevue motel and the two having been up all night they're now at the hotel
00:49:14
they presumably sleep until about 2 p.m that afternoon right at 2 pm they are picked up again by detectives and taken
00:49:22
back to the Bellevue Police Department for further questioning this also during this time they also conduct
00:49:27
fingerprinting and photographing of the two young men they are let go at about 6
00:49:33
PM they are released from this uh at 6 PM from there the two go to a video store and Sebastian and Atif rent a VCR
00:49:42
in several movies at 9 00 PM Blockbuster at nine PM Sebastian calls his father to tell the
00:49:52
tell him what has happened right so a couple things here um so they're staying in a hotel that's
00:49:59
being furnished for them by um the police right so and that that makes sense you you
00:50:07
have these kids if they're not involved they're definitely victims and this kid's whole life has changed because his
00:50:14
whole family's been murdered but there also our number one suspect slash lead that we have so we need to keep them
00:50:22
close so you sleep all day then you get questioned and then you probably don't want to go out or do anything no so a
00:50:30
lot of people have really kind of speculated that well these guys are definitely guilty they went to
00:50:36
Blockbuster and rented some movies uh I don't know look you're you're two 18 year old boys
00:50:44
this tragic event just happened you were up all night being questioned you were then questioned again
00:50:51
um maybe you're sitting in the hotel room hey the hotel room might not have cable or maybe it has cable and there's
00:50:58
just nothing on and you go hey let's just go rent some movies Public Access channel was all it had I'm joking I
00:51:05
don't know I don't know that but but it's just funny to me that you know people will sit there and speculate oh
00:51:11
you know they rented some movies their their murderers like I don't know I think that stuff is a
00:51:17
stretch nobody you would not know what you would do in those circumstances if it you know until it happens well I
00:51:24
agree with that 100 I do have to call into question myself because when I saw this report that they
00:51:33
had done this I founded a I didn't find it particularly like overboard weird or strange I did question it a little bit
00:51:42
but then I remembered uh way back when when we covered Casey Anthony and she had gone to the video store and I'm
00:51:49
probably I I don't know that I can't recall my reaction but my guess what my gut tells me I probably held her feet to
00:51:55
the Flames for going to the video store so I should do so I guess in this case as well
00:52:02
um yeah but she's a crazy [ __ ] I mean so uh one thing I did find strange is the 9 pm phone call
00:52:10
from Sebastian to his father this seems like a very traumatic event to somebody to anybody obviously I I
00:52:20
feel like I I really wonder the delay for that phone call um and obviously Sebastian's not here
00:52:28
with us to to explain why there was what I would call a delay maybe that maybe he
00:52:35
felt that was his only and first opportunity to actually make that phone call and it was something he had wanted
00:52:40
to do all day long however I see that there's some windows of time where that phone call could have been made and did
00:52:49
not happen yeah yeah and look I think uh again there's all these little actions that people put on to people to go hey
00:52:59
they're guilty they rented movies they they watch The Lion King first of all what 18 year old boys are going to go
00:53:07
get salad and some wine and watch The Lion King together that's how I spent every Friday night
00:53:14
we're gonna have to get another coat that's how I spent last Friday night no um here's the thing Captain though the
00:53:20
the but but I I got a harp on this phone call for a little bit because had I been
00:53:25
with you or with any of my other friends and discovered right their friends let me finish
00:53:31
the reason why you know like I was saying everybody harps on this or that for all we know
00:53:38
they go right from the murder scene the crime scene to questioning and the cops might have told him since
00:53:46
they're 18 they're on that cusp they might have said look um they might ask do you need to call your
00:53:52
dad or you need to call your parents or maybe they didn't or maybe they called them for them I mean there could
00:54:01
be some little tiny piece of information that we don't know that's why I'm not going to harp on a harp on it too much I
00:54:07
don't know if it leads either way he either it was the first opportunity he felt
00:54:13
that he could call or he knew that he had to wait a a time period before he was able to call his father again though
00:54:22
there there are clear windows of time that he would have been able to call them but
00:54:26
we have to factor in some other things we don't know what his parents schedules were maybe during those windows of the
00:54:32
time he he believed he would be unable to get a hold of either his father or mother the other thing too is
00:54:38
I guess I'm questioning why he delayed calling his parents and the reason being is
00:54:44
um what I should probably question is his relationship with his parents you know I'm kind of looking at it in my
00:54:50
shoes I'm looking at it like look I'm in my 30s if something that traumatic happened to me probably the first thing
00:54:56
I would probably want to do is call somebody that that makes me feel some kind of
00:55:01
sense of Safety and Security and that would be one of my parents the thing though is I have a good relationship
00:55:07
with my parents I'm I shouldn't assume that he has a good relationship with his yeah and but also we have Sebastian
00:55:13
hanging out with the teeth and Atif is his best friend and how much consoling is he doing for our teeth that just lost
00:55:21
his father his mother and his older sister that's true he could be tending to his his good friend now on the day
00:55:28
after the bodies were found in the early afternoon Sebastian and Atif go to Barnes and Noble bookstore at about 3
00:55:37
P.M the detectives locate the two men at the bookstore and they request another meeting with each of them a chief
00:55:44
participates in a three-hour taped interview and Sebastian does an hour and a half taped interview with the
00:55:51
investigators and at no point these guys are asking for a lawyer well not only that they're cooperating
00:55:59
they've handed over their clothes anytime these investigators and detectives are asking for interviews
00:56:06
they're doing that and they're allowing the interviews to be taped they're probably writing things uh writing
00:56:12
statements as well during this time they've submitted to fingerprints to other forms of tests they're they're
00:56:18
cooperating in every form and fashion that you would ask of a person expect of a person and they're doing that now on
00:56:25
July 15th in the morning the Canadian consulate calls to obtain permission from the Bellevue Police Department to
00:56:35
return Sebastian and Atif to Sebastian's parents who live in Vancouver right okay
00:56:41
so to make this a little more clear so when Sebastian ends up talking with his father
00:56:47
his father starts going okay they're questioning these 18 year old boys they need to come home this is not right
00:56:56
so what they do like we said they're in a hotel room that is being they're being
00:57:01
put up by the police department so they have their their contact even though that they had contact with the
00:57:09
detectives and stuff themselves and had their numbers they didn't call it's kind of like when
00:57:15
you call into work sick you know you'd be like 16 and you're sick and you but you don't want
00:57:21
to call in so you just try to get your parents to call in for you I mean it's kind of the same thing I think they
00:57:27
didn't want to talk to the detectives I think they were also nervous they're being told by Sebastian's father
00:57:36
hey come home you need to come home if they're questioning you multiple times you need to come home
00:57:42
and so they have their counselor call they say hey it's fine they're allowed to go they're they're not doing anything
00:57:49
wrong so they leave and then what does the police department do they run to the press and then tell the
00:57:58
press that these two individuals they're fleeing yeah and the funny thing is when
00:58:04
you go back and you find newspaper reports uh from July of 94. it's obvious that that's the what the
00:58:12
media believed as well that's what's reported that the two fled to Canada and that's why I wanted to point out that a
00:58:19
consulate employee called Bellevue police asking for permission stating that you know basically they're saying
00:58:26
is it okay if these two young men leave is it okay that they return to Canada and you got to keep in mind here
00:58:35
Sebastian that's his family that's where he lives that's where he's from he was just visiting and then furthermore Atif
00:58:41
his family's been killed Sebastian's family might be the closest thing he has to family at this point right but I'd
00:58:48
also say at this point in his life you know Canada does more his home you know he's a he's a citizen of Canada yeah he
00:58:55
I don't think he's an American citizen he had lived in Canada for the majority of his life they had lived in multiple
00:59:01
countries but but he lived in Canada for the majority of his life one the thing that's going to happen once he gets to
00:59:07
Canada is he misses his family's funeral and that becomes a big deal yeah so we have at approximately 10 a.m on July 15
00:59:16
1994 the lead detective on the case in Bellevue learns that the rafay funeral will take place that day and then that
00:59:24
evening Sebastian and Atif they are now at the Burns residence in Canada and they're watching the evening news and
00:59:32
that is when Atif discovers from watching the news that his family's funeral was planned and took place that
00:59:39
day without him being there well I guess in the traditional Muslim uh Traditions I guess you have to be
00:59:47
buried within a certain time period okay so it's like I want to say three to four
00:59:52
days so the argument here is that he would have known uh based on tradition but again here's what's weird is we
00:59:59
don't know we don't know this Dynamic we know that his family's Muslim but we don't know how
01:00:04
Orthodox or unorthodox they are but his his uh surrounding family is the one that that took care of the the
01:00:13
funeral arrangements so he might not have known right um it's a little odd though I mean I think
01:00:23
I could totally see Sebastian's Dad saying you guys need to come home um you know does the teeth come with you or
01:00:32
not well I say I say yes bring them with us but what I thought was interesting was
01:00:39
when uh Sebastian's dad was talking about this and said we're watching The Evening News
01:00:43
and we see that uh not only there was a funeral but they're going hey a thief missed a funeral what's up with that
01:00:50
right that that the mom said off camera if you watch this uh this was on the confession
01:00:58
tapes uh Netflix confession tapes it's episode one and two she's off camera and she says hey it wasn't that he was just
01:01:06
upset he literally like yelled at the TV and like almost like Dove towards the TV
01:01:13
and anger well and and in all fairness too I don't know Muslim tradition well enough to say that
01:01:20
you know how many days is the rule right but I just want to point out to the listeners that are that are wandering so
01:01:27
we have the bodies are discovered at 2 A.M on July 13th the date we're talking about is the funeral would have been on
01:01:35
July 15th so two days later now was it tradition that it's three days four days I don't know but what I'm getting at no
01:01:43
no no what I'm saying is the the the protocol is that they have to be buried within that time period within a certain
01:01:50
amount of time right right right what I'm what I wanted to point out here was that we're stating that there's a good
01:01:58
chance that Thief would have known what the tradition would be and should have had an idea of what was going to happen
01:02:03
right if that's even if that is the case if he does have that knowledge what I'm
01:02:09
put pointing out here is they left the morning of the 15th and took a bus back to Vancouver I don't know how many hours
01:02:16
it took them to get there what I'm getting at is this was only two days later so if Atif thought that they had
01:02:22
three or four days whatever it is maybe he thought that somebody would contact him and he could just hop on a bus and
01:02:29
go right back down and attend the services I don't know what the the time frame is on that but obviously he took
01:02:36
this bus and it only took him a few hours to or took hours to get there right now a lot of this stuff they're
01:02:42
going to say why did this happen or why did this happen and Atif and Sebastian always kind of come back to this same
01:02:49
explanation We Were Young we're just kids yeah you know there's there's certain times in in your life that you
01:02:56
have to kind of Step Up and and be more adult like I think whether it was a thief's fault or his family's fault that
01:03:03
he wasn't at the funeral I think there's evidence that shows that he was upset about it and so I would I assume that
01:03:11
that's not his doing if why would you be upset about something that you decided not to be at
01:03:17
um so either here nor there there's no uh this is just all speculation this this
01:03:25
is not real evidence yeah and obviously the Bellevue police department they are putting a thief in Sebastian through the
01:03:32
ringer here and it looks like these two well it looks like they're the main suspects uh if you follow this
01:03:39
investigation now we should point out that the detectives they did have other suspects or they should have had other
01:03:46
suspects and who were these people and how did they get this information well within just days following the murders
01:03:52
the Bellevue police department they received three tips through other law enforcement agencies regarding the
01:03:59
horrific triple homicide one was from a constable with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police the RCMP
01:04:06
one from an FBI informant and one from the Intelligence Division of the Seattle Police these tips are significant too
01:04:15
Captain because they provided names addresses phone numbers and the correct murder weapon and motives for the
01:04:23
murders as well the Bellevue Police Department discarded all of these leads well let's let's go through these leads
01:04:30
shall we so the first one from the RCMP a confidential informant contacted Constable galinas of the RCMP this
01:04:39
informant told the Constable that a man and we don't have the name of this man but the name was provided from the
01:04:47
informant to the constable this man told the informant that he had been offered twenty thousand dollars to
01:04:54
kill an East Indian family that had previously lived in Vancouver Canada and had moved to Bellevue Washington right
01:05:03
galinas decided that this information was regarding the rafae killings the informant told galinas he had heard this
01:05:11
two days before the murders were committed officer galinas contacted the Bellevue police department and the lead
01:05:19
investigators on the rafe murders and communicated this information to them the Bellevue investigators traveled to
01:05:27
Vancouver so I I guess I wasn't fair when saying that they didn't follow up on these leads because they attempted to
01:05:34
with this one they traveled to Vancouver and they knocked on the man's door uh they attempted to speak with this man on
01:05:42
two occasions however the man was either not home or just simply did not answer the door
01:05:49
uh for the police department so the Bellevue police they ultimately returned to the United States without having made
01:05:57
any contact with this tip with this tipster I mean he called at least he called in the evidence right but maybe
01:06:03
that's it hey this is what I heard that's all I know don't show up at my house because
01:06:10
obviously if people are putting out you know twenty thousand dollars on a hit on
01:06:14
a family you think they're not going to kill this guy well the other thing too is uh we have
01:06:20
to be clear that the the offering was for twenty thousand dollars to kill an East Indian family it
01:06:27
didn't specifically name the rafe family however you have to wonder is this lead
01:06:33
in fact talking about the rephase because it's I think it's very likely if not exactly the right family who fits the
01:06:41
description that the informant provided I mean I don't know how many people fit the description of an East Indian family
01:06:48
that had previously lived in Vancouver Canada and moved to Bellevue Washington right recently recently right
01:06:56
so uh is this the person who murdered the rafay family well what's the motive well the motive would be the twenty
01:07:05
thousand dollars that you're offered to no what's that why would you put the head out for are you paying twenty
01:07:11
thousand dollars to have this family killed well we haven't got to that point yet we're we're still discussing if this
01:07:16
person actually carried it out and the the thing is obviously no this This Confidential informant did not say who
01:07:24
had murdered the rafay family when giving this information right right he just simply said somebody was offered a
01:07:30
contract to murder a family right uh it's possible this man didn't accept the contract or the money
01:07:37
however since he talked about the contract before the rafe family was murdered at the very least investigators
01:07:44
could have discovered who wanted the Rave family killed and that's what you're getting at
01:07:49
right who who was if you had bothered to speak with this man you could at least find out who was the person offering up
01:07:57
the money offering up the contract because if this guy didn't accept it somebody else could have right or he or
01:08:04
he or she could have found other means of carrying out this these killings well there's another uh lead as well which is
01:08:12
pretty solid it comes from the FBI yeah the an FBI informant this is about five days after the homicides the Bellevue
01:08:19
Police Department received a call from the FBI advising that one of their informants had come forward providing
01:08:26
information about the murder of the buffet family the FBI informant and again we the name has been withheld from
01:08:33
this information do you want to reenact this call no told a detective of the Bellevue police
01:08:40
that a militant Islamic faction said that Tariq rafay this action yeah this is uh atif's father should die because
01:08:52
of his beliefs and teachings about the Quran the FBI informant also said that several
01:08:59
days after the homicides a member of this militant Islamic faction came to his house
01:09:06
and was worried that the FBI informant had seen a baseball bat that he and some other men had been carrying around in
01:09:14
their car so because of this the the FBI informant believed that the murder weapon used to
01:09:21
kill the rafae family was in fact the baseball bat which they didn't know at the time there was you know they had to
01:09:27
do some uh tests to make sure that it was a baseball bat that they believed was the murder weapon and But ultimately
01:09:34
that's where their investigation took them right but they find out that all right that they think it was in fact the
01:09:40
baseball bat that had killed the family and this is where the the Bellevue investigator's ears should perk up you
01:09:47
know because this this should be considered a credible lead because the informant knew the murder weapon before
01:09:55
this information was was common knowledge before it was made public and first of all it's the [ __ ] FBI
01:10:01
FBI it's not like so like Tony down the street told me about this guy with the baseball bat it's the FBI
01:10:11
you listen to them you know what I'm saying well in the the informant working for the FBI provided like we said
01:10:18
provided names addresses and phone numbers of these people to the police so they could follow up on this lead
01:10:24
instead of following up on the lead they basically said that the investigators basically thought that
01:10:30
this FBI informant was crazy right like oh this this person that came forward with this information is crazy therefore
01:10:36
we are not going to follow up on this why are they crazy um I don't know I I mean that that's how
01:10:43
dismissive they were of the lead they don't say this person's crazy because of a b and c or we went and spoke to this
01:10:49
person face to face and have figured out that they're not a credible Source right
01:10:55
and so instead they just dismiss it and say the person's crazy and and it's not a foreign faction right you didn't say
01:11:01
foreign faction right right right okay so but what is their motive it's not just his
01:11:19
what were they trying to kill him for um the way that it's described is that his his teachings about the Quran and
01:11:27
his beliefs about the Quran and I'll let you go into that so I I think the main thing was he was an engineer he did some
01:11:35
number figurines and realized that true East where they prayed to was actually off by like three degrees
01:11:44
or something like that by a minuscule amount very small amount so and this guy was uh engineer but also did a lot of
01:11:52
stuff with architecture and so it was one of those things where you know essentially you go well now all these
01:11:58
mosque and all these places in uh Canada need to be turn you need to jiggle them a bit right
01:12:05
we need to pick up all these buildings and move them and obviously you can't do that but I think it was pretty vocal
01:12:10
about that and again I I you know murdering is stupid for one but to you know to take somebody you're a
01:12:20
Muslim and you got another Muslim and there's just a couple things he disagrees with you on
01:12:26
and so you want to kill him that makes absolutely no sense to me it makes zero sense well and you know when
01:12:35
I read this information about how dismissive they were the they being the investigators regarding this lead you
01:12:42
know what popped in my my pee brain immediately your pointed head yeah was uh was art art who we spoke to regarding
01:12:51
the mara Murray case right and he's retired U.S Marshal and the first thing that he told us is in any investigation
01:12:58
to work it properly you should go where the evidence takes you right or even you
01:13:05
know they didn't even follow up on this lead is what I'm getting at right you know
01:13:10
the lead that gave you what the murder weapon is correct correct so even if it just investigate it
01:13:18
even for for some point to the point where you can find out and make a correct determination if it's in fact a
01:13:25
credible lead or not and the third and final lead is when the Seattle Police Intelligence Division called the
01:13:31
Bellevue police department and told them that they had information that the faqua
01:13:36
now I'm not saying that right f u q r a focra any dropping those f-bombs on the show oh crap I like the
01:13:45
chakra of the fakhra you're a real [ __ ] rat today there it's a it's a radical militant organization
01:13:52
that they may have been involved in these homicides and this is how the U.S state Department describes the focra
01:13:59
it's an Islamic sect that seeks to purify Islam through violence established sometime in the early 1980s
01:14:08
most cells are located in North America and the Caribbean fakra members have attacked a variety of targets that they
01:14:17
view as enemies of Islam including Muslims themselves in addition to uh not following up on this lead
01:14:27
the Bellevue police department they did not question any members of the Islamic community in Bellevue
01:14:34
to find out if if Dr rafay atif's father had conflicts with any Muslims in the area oh well and like we
01:14:43
said I mean let's think about this okay one you you have this engineer coming out and saying hey
01:14:50
true ease might not be true East going against you know your Holy Grail the the Quran right
01:14:58
so then you have this other informant saying hey there was this hit put out well maybe that hit was put out that
01:15:05
anybody in this extreme group right this extreme religious group that that that money goes to you if you
01:15:15
create this hit you see what I'm saying so it could be connected they could both
01:15:20
be connected both leads well not only both and here's here's one thing I question
01:15:24
and this is one thing that I think that the the Bellevue Police Department messed up on is that I think when they
01:15:31
receive this information you're you're talking about these are potentially huge leads all three of these are complicated
01:15:37
leads at that they're receiving all these leads within days of each other and here's what I'm guessing went down
01:15:44
I'm guessing that the the investigators probably thought well How can any of these leads be creditable
01:15:52
when we're receiving another lead that's so complicated just like the one we just
01:15:56
received meaning that even if one of them is true then two of them are false no and that's why you point out a good
01:16:03
thing that two of them could be connected hell all three of these could be connected and then with the [ __ ]
01:16:11
background they there was another murder that took place where they were responsible for the death uh of a family
01:16:19
a Muslim family and that father also was an engineer and was speaking up against
01:16:25
different things of the Muslim faith so I think we should leave you with that thought that's the thought that we're
01:16:32
leaving you with today is the possibility that not only one of these tips could be right all three of them
01:16:39
could be correct and they could be connected and I think some some of that too with the Bellevue Police Department
01:16:46
with when something is that big and also let's just be frank about it this happened before 9 11. and so I believe
01:16:54
if it happens after 9 11 maybe they take these leads a little more serious but these are also leads that are they're
01:17:01
bigger than you you would need to get somebody like the FBI involved well and that's another part where they messed up
01:17:08
think about this one of the tips is coming from an informant that is working with or helping the FBI in some form
01:17:14
right so therefore if you relay that information to me and you work for the FBI that's when I'm going I got this
01:17:22
triple homicide seems pretty complicated we're getting weird complicated leads and tips coming in uh guess what Mr FBI
01:17:29
agent thank you for bringing this information to our attention however this information came from you from your
01:17:35
division we need you to step in here and and oversee this or at the very least oversee that one tip yeah oversee that
01:17:44
one lead or please contact your higher ups and have them get involved so yeah I mean there's there's a lot
01:17:50
more to get into this case and uh let's do that uh tomorrow thanks to everybody for joining us in
01:18:03
the very cold wintry garage today I still got my coat on cat I'm freezing my fuckra off I hope
01:18:12
everybody out there stays warm and enjoy the rest of your day until tomorrow be good be kind and don't litter
01:18:21
[Music] [Applause]