00:00:00
thank you [Music] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:00:44
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that knows that fortune tellers make a killing nowadays
00:00:50
here is the captain call me old Swami it's good to be seen it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for
00:00:57
telling a friend [Music] this week we are featuring Black Tuesday Grand Reserve 2020 by the incredible men
00:01:09
and women over at the brewery if you're looking for them online that's spelled b-r-u-e-r-y this is a delicious triple
00:01:18
barrel aged Imperial Stout with a whopping 22 percent ABV so drink this at home in your garage grade 4 out of five
00:01:28
bottle caps and a very special thank you to Thomas from Dallas PA for sending this beauty to us here at the garage a
00:01:36
big shout out goes to Jennifer from Ravena Ohio next up Captain we have Lena sending her love all the way from Sweden
00:01:44
a big weed like your jib to Henry in New Rochelle New York next we have Cheryl and West Columbia Texas and last but
00:01:52
certainly not least we have Audrey and Boone North Carolina everybody we just mentioned went to True Crime garage.com
00:01:58
and they helped us fill up the fridge for this week's shows and for that we thank you yeah
00:02:04
bwr-u-n beer run if you need more TCG for your earballs check out our bonus show called off the Record it's on
00:02:12
Stitcher premium you can find a link at our website at truecrimegarage.com and that is enough of the bee isn't it all
00:02:20
right everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
00:02:27
directly to the killer who may be in this room what will those closest to you think of
00:02:47
when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls only a cow wouldn't do such a thing
00:02:57
give up [Music] we will not stop 24 hours of course since they were reported missing 13 year olds Liberty
00:03:10
German Abigail Williams well I've seen around one o'clock Monday afternoon near the Monon high bridge that abandoned
00:03:18
rail Bridge just outside of Delphi you know news 18's Brad oppenheim joins us now live from Carroll County where that
00:03:24
surge continues at this hour Brad Jeff like you said Liberty German and Abigail Williams were last seen
00:03:32
yesterday afternoon when they were dropped off near that bridge now they had made arrangements to be picked up by
00:03:37
family members later that afternoon but they never showed up now a staging area has been set up at the Delphi fire
00:03:43
department and since I've been here I've seen hundreds of people come in and out
00:03:47
of this staging area we are told that volunteers will be sent out in groups where they will comb the area in efforts
00:03:52
to find these two girls I was able to actually catch up with Abigail Williams mother Anna Williams
00:03:58
and she says she is Amazed by the outpouring of support from the community I also spoke with the Carroll County
00:04:03
Sheriff toe blessingby and he says they are working with officials on getting an
00:04:07
Amber Alert issued just in the last couple hours I've been at the staging area I've seen and spoke from volunteers
00:04:12
that don't even live in Carroll County including one man from West Lafayette who came over and joined the search he
00:04:18
said he has a teenage daughter himself and wanted to do what he could to make sure those girls make it home safe
00:04:24
directly to the Killer who may be in this room only a cow wouldn't do such a thing
00:04:38
what will those closest to you think of when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls
00:04:48
only a cow wouldn't do such a thing don't give up [Music] we will not stop we're here in the garage me in the
00:05:10
colonel talking with skip Jansen about who he believes should be the number one person of interest
00:05:19
skip when did you start your investigation into the Delphi murders that's a good question I've probably
00:05:25
been looking into it for the last year or so I guess I got into it because I thought it was I was intrigued by the
00:05:32
fact that there were audio and video of the Killer and I thought it was even more unique that one of the victims had
00:05:38
was the one who had done the video of him so that's how I kind of got started looking into it and why do you think so
00:05:44
many people on the internet have been fascinated with the Delphi murders another good question I think probably
00:05:51
for those reasons as well as I think the small town aspect plays a part in it and
00:05:56
I think that uh the the fact that you know anytime two children are murdered you know people have a fascination with
00:06:02
that and for people that don't know Delphi has a population of just under 3 000 individuals yeah very very low
00:06:10
populated area and the unusual thing about it is for a town that has less than 3 000 people I've never seen a case
00:06:17
that had this many potential Persons of Interest yeah on the internet there's hundreds of side by sides but law
00:06:23
enforcement has stated over and over in different press conferences that they believe the Killer is local to Delphi
00:06:30
correct yeah I mean I agree with that if that's what you're asking I think the the area that the crime was committed in
00:06:37
is is such a remote area that the odds of this being someone who was from out of town or a random type
00:06:45
murderer I think the odds are probably a little too long for that yeah I want to
00:06:50
Echo that but I do want to point out that they have what what their exact words are is that we believe that you
00:06:56
the person is local someone either from Delphi living in Delphi or someone that works
00:07:03
there so not necessarily doesn't have to be an actual member of the Delphi proper
00:07:09
population according to those words and statements that have been released by law enforcement but I do agree 100 with
00:07:16
you Skip and Captain given the nature of the crime scene and the Monon high bridge in the trail
00:07:25
system there there are people that live in Delphi and live in Carroll County that I've spoken
00:07:33
to or heard in interviews state that they didn't even know those Trails existed or the bridge existed so for
00:07:39
some random person to just find that and use that as a it the killer used this as a hunting ground
00:07:47
whether he intended to kill someone there or not he was hunting for prey for a victim or victims that day at that
00:07:56
location and given what I've seen and reviewed as far as maps go I would like to go there and walk the uh terrain
00:08:04
myself but given the remoteness of that area and the lay of the land somebody had to have familiarity with that
00:08:14
location I agree with that I think people get misled a little bit sometimes they say you go look at Google Maps and
00:08:21
and see that one of the roads that the bridge is off of Highway 300 which is it's just a little small you know
00:08:27
country two-lane road I think people think that that's maybe a larger more traveled area and it's just not so we
00:08:34
have discussed many possible people of interest on the show and with arrests like Chadwell
00:08:42
and so many other arrests throughout the country and people having side by sides
00:08:48
one thing that's tough with all those individuals are they capable of committing the crimes yes but can you
00:08:55
put them in Delphi the day of the murders but with your Person of Interest you can actually put them at the park
00:09:02
the day of the murders yeah that's right he was there he admitted he was there he
00:09:08
was theirs he said he was with a female he actually was was the uh one of the witnesses for the original sketch that
00:09:15
was released some people referred to as Old Bridge guy uh to answer that question yes he's he's the first one
00:09:21
that I know of it that was admittedly there so your Person of Interest admits that he was there and also admits that
00:09:27
he has talked to law enforcement and he came forward and he is the reason for the first sketch that has been released
00:09:33
do you know if your Person of Interest was a part of any of the searches that day I don't I don't know that he was
00:09:39
part of uh any search I just know that he was there around the time of the murders and he was in pretty close
00:09:45
proximity to uh to the area that uh where the girls were found so the girls went missing on February 13th but their
00:09:53
bodies weren't found until February 14th yeah that's correct around noon on the 14th so just to add a little Clarity
00:09:59
here uh in regards to the time frame that we're talking about we're talking about February 13
00:10:05
2017. now Libby and Abby were dropped off approximately 145 in the afternoon this is according to Kelsey who dropped
00:10:14
them off at the trailhead and the Snapchat picture of Abby was posted at 207 p.m on that day
00:10:25
and it's believed based off of the evidence that we have that being the still picture which comes from the video
00:10:33
which was then released at a later date the still picture of bridge guy yeah correct it it due to the positioning of
00:10:40
the sun uh what we can see in that video we can tell that the abduction took place between 2 20 p.m and 2 40 p.m that
00:10:50
afternoon so relatively quickly things are moving very fast the girls are dropped off in less than an hour later
00:10:56
they are abducted um less than a half an hour later that picture is posted on Snapchat of Abby
00:11:03
it's kind of mind-boggling how we have this perpetrator lurking waiting in the shadows if you will
00:11:13
looking for potential prey and it just so happens to line up with about the time that they're dropped off and from
00:11:22
my understanding Skip and you can correct me if I'm I'm wrong that it's approximately about a half mile from the
00:11:28
trailhead to the bridge itself which two girls taking their time maybe they went
00:11:33
a roundabout way there's two different options to get you to that monan high bridge
00:11:39
that time lines up all those times really line up with about how long it would take someone on foot to get to
00:11:45
that bridge and when you say that this guy your guy has admittedly his own words put him Place him at the crime
00:11:53
scene at about the same time that the abduction and murders took place and I do want to be clear there even though
00:12:00
they're murdered at that location and left there they were abducted I mean they were they were moved and corralled
00:12:08
and directed by the killer where to go foreign because we have audio evidence of that correct and we don't know for
00:12:16
exactly what reasons but you're saying this guy has placed himself there during this time frame and the other thing
00:12:23
that's key to hone in on at this point too when we're discussing times on that day is according to law enforcement
00:12:32
they believe whatever took place because again they're not telling us exactly what happened whatever took place
00:12:39
was done and over with probably relatively quickly but at least by 5 PM that day yeah correct because
00:12:47
that's what that's the time frame that they say that uh the car was at the CPS building at the 2019 press conference
00:12:54
they LED that off with that that they were looking for the driver which I thought was
00:13:00
interesting of the vehicle that was parked there from 12 to 5. I thought it was unusual they asked for the drive
00:13:05
about the drivers things like maybe they know about what the who the vehicle is and that's something that that we can
00:13:10
get into a little bit but let me say a couple of things that I think are important one thing one thing I've
00:13:14
learned is that law enforcement in a perpetrator have a 180 degree opposite agendas and I'm not talking about just
00:13:21
the simple fact that Law Enforcement wants to catch this guy and this guy that you know the perpetrator doesn't
00:13:26
want to be caught how that relates to this case is and it goes back to what you were talking about about the time is
00:13:32
Law Enforcement wants to place somebody there between under that bridge near that crime scene between about 2 30 and
00:13:40
3 30 that afternoon okay the perpetrator wants to be anywhere else but under that bridge between 2 30 and 3
00:13:48
30. okay and that's something I think that that the listeners should keep in mind as we as we go along here because
00:13:55
there's been a ton of misinformation deflections false information put out as we as again as we talk about that you'll
00:14:03
see some of that maybe people changing their time frames of when they were there who they were with where they
00:14:09
parked and things like that well it's hard to know because we're not from that area we don't know how populous this
00:14:15
park is it's a day where there's no school how many people do you think are at the park
00:14:22
during the time of the murders it's hard to say I I I've identified maybe six or seven I know there's been I
00:14:31
know there's been people who've said uh they were up to 50 people I don't buy that at all I think there were just a
00:14:36
few I've identified six or seven so people put the time frame of the murders in between 2 30 and let's say 3 30 but
00:14:45
we know that because the girls weren't responding and somebody was trying to pick them up and this uh
00:14:52
miscommunication was would have started about three o'clock yeah I think I think
00:14:56
Libby's dad Derek had arrived and started walking the trails around three o'clock just after and that was that was
00:15:04
about the time they they started realizing you know something was wrong Derek called Libby's phone at 3 11 that
00:15:10
afternoon and this is as he was getting close he's driving in a vehicle to go pick up the girls there was no set time
00:15:18
when they were dropped off what time they would be picked up it was a roundabout time right and the the
00:15:24
statement was or always has been that Derek would call Libby when he got close so they could meet him at the trailhead
00:15:32
and we know that that call took place at 3 11. he's unable to get a hold of her she doesn't answer the phone he then
00:15:40
arrives shortly after that 311 phone call and starts to walk the trails looking for the girls I think the one of
00:15:48
the important things is is is that where he parked is an area called the mirrors
00:15:51
lot which is the same place that the girls were dropped off it's just a small area private area but the locals knew it
00:15:59
as a place to they had easy access to the trails there's the trailhead like you said is right there so it's just a
00:16:05
short walk to the bridge and it's called the mirrors lot because the mirrors Family Farm is right it's right across
00:16:12
the street yeah exactly they may have owned portions of that additional land at one once right in this area area that
00:16:19
you can just get a few cars in at one time three or four five maybe Max so it's just a small area but the locals
00:16:27
knew about it one of the importance of this being a small location and like you said it could only fit maybe five cars
00:16:34
is that your Person of Interest claims that around three o'clock his car would have been parked in that lot that's what
00:16:40
Tammy said he arrived yeah and he said he started walking slowly down the trail with a female but we haven't had any
00:16:47
other eyewitness come forward and say that they saw your Person of Interest walking with this female
00:16:54
we have anybody come forward and say that they saw them that's correct well yeah that's correct not anybody that we
00:17:01
uh that has said anything publicly I do believe that that he was seen later on but but no nobody has publicly said they
00:17:08
saw him nobody's corroborated that and what's also odd about this one claim that your Person of Interest made is the
00:17:15
time frame he would have run into possibly Derek or possibly flannel shirt guy at the trailhead around this time period
00:17:27
yeah he like I said when Derek got there he started on walking on the on the trails he ran into an older man older
00:17:34
gentleman who's referred to as flannel shirt guy and ask him if if he had seen the girl
00:17:40
two girls and he said no but there's a couple arguing under the bridge so Derek took the other path I guess
00:17:48
assuming that that was not who he was looking for so so maybe the girls were on the other path one thing I've always
00:17:53
wondered about here skip is there's actually two Bridges right there's one that goes over the Indiana Hoosier
00:18:00
Highway what's that the freedom Bridge Freedom Bridge yes part of me wonders when he gets told by FSG flannel short
00:18:07
flannel shirt guy can do you have his name in front of you I think he's been identified I think we can just say his
00:18:14
name yeah his last name is McCain and McCain he was in charge of the uh the trail system there correct so he's
00:18:22
involved with the parks and rec or something of that nature but so he speaks with McCain and McCain says I I
00:18:30
saw a couple arguing under the bridge I think well I think you actually said I heard a couple okay under the bridge and
00:18:36
I'm with you it could mean one of two things either he goes okay well that's not the people I'm looking for so I'll
00:18:41
go this opposite way maybe he just assumed the freedom Bridge rather than the moaning High Bridge it's possible that
00:18:48
McCain was coming from that from that direction so I think the assumption is that he would had just been at the BR at
00:18:54
the Monon High Bridge like I said you know he he asked you know about two young girls you know somebody describing
00:19:00
a couple they heard would not be the same description so so he he you know he said he said no he hasn't seen them so
00:19:08
it it you know that part of it I think is fairly simple well in this case there's so much information and I think
00:19:15
there's some misinformation that's being put out by certain people and when you hear about this eyewitness uh McCain
00:19:22
that talked with Derek at the trailhead and he says that I heard a arguing couple roughly around 2
00:19:32
50 to 3 o'clock to me one of the things that people are missing is that would be
00:19:38
roughly at the time that Abby and Libby are making contact with Bridge guy and we don't have the full audio tape so we
00:19:48
don't know and we don't know if those audio tapes have the evidence on there was there an argument was there did one
00:19:57
of the girls start arguing with Bridge guy and if that is true then around three o'clock McCain did not hear a
00:20:06
arguing couple he heard Bridge Guy arguing with Abby and Libby yeah I think I think that's likely I think yeah one
00:20:13
of the biggest questions that people have had in this case is you know why didn't anybody hear anything you know
00:20:19
why didn't the girl scream why did anybody hear anything well maybe they did you know maybe McCain uh heard
00:20:24
something and and but but nobody's put that together like you just said so so your Person of Interest we know that he
00:20:33
was there he claims he was eyewitness he claims he's the reason for the first sketch that was released he also claims
00:20:42
that he enters the same parking lot that Derek parked in roughly about three o'clock but then other times he has told
00:20:52
sources and talked on the internet about being a part of the arguing couple which would put him at the crime scene
00:21:01
at three o'clock correct he also didn't come forward to law enforcement saying that he saw anybody like I mentioned he
00:21:08
was a witness to one of the witnesses to the first sketch until well after the uh
00:21:12
video had been put out at least a week I think that kind of asked the question why if you saw somebody he says he saw
00:21:19
somebody dressed like BG was with a scarf over his face if he saw if he saw somebody like that why didn't you come
00:21:26
you know and you know two little girls were murdered that day why didn't you come forward immediately you know and
00:21:31
and he later recanted that uh statement yeah I have a couple problems with this person of interest one you're at the
00:21:39
park roughly around the time that this family is looking for two missing girls there's no witness that says he stayed
00:21:46
to help so what kind of person are you what kind of canoe are you I think our listeners know what I'm getting at but
00:21:55
on top of that yours there's this you're claiming that the day these girls were murdered and you would have known
00:22:04
that the next day that you were at the park the same day these girls were murdered and you saw a suspicious person
00:22:11
you're not coming forward to law enforcement for seven eight days well he originally said he was with his
00:22:17
girlfriend okay he later changed that to a girl that and he never mentioned her name just uh told uh Apparently one of
00:22:26
the uh stories that was at Earth was he was part of a cheating couple so that was the reason for maybe uh
00:22:33
why it was so ambiguous about who you know who he was with was because he was saying he you know he was trying to keep
00:22:39
it on the download that he was with another girl well and that's really interesting because this person of
00:22:44
interest he's coming forward and saying look I'm the I'm the eyewitness I saw Bridge guy I am the reason for the first
00:22:52
sketch that is released we now know that law enforcement is saying hey don't that's that's sketch is
00:22:59
secondary essentially saying well we don't buy this eyewitness's account at one point saying well I was at the
00:23:07
parking lot roughly the same time Derek was there ah but he didn't see me and at some point I was yeah I was with
00:23:15
there with my girlfriend uh now we know that's not to be true so then he has to then go on and then
00:23:23
tell people okay look I wasn't there with my girlfriend I was cheating on my girlfriend and so therefore you know but
00:23:30
I I was covering for that which a lot of times eyewitnesses come forward and they
00:23:36
lie to law enforcement and lie to the public because they were doing something bad that necessarily doesn't make him a
00:23:43
murderer but my issue is we don't know who he claims he was with under that bridge
00:23:52
key phrase there under the bridge which by definition guys down the hill under the bridge anything under the
00:24:03
bridge becomes a part of the crime scene they found articles of clothing around that area under the bridge in the
00:24:12
water so we have this individual lying and constantly changing the story but what
00:24:19
does he do he puts himself at that crime scene and I don't believe anybody saw arguing
00:24:25
couple they just heard arguing couple arguing couple then equals Bridge Guy arguing with Abby and Libby equals
00:24:34
that's the murderer and he is putting himself in that position that location arguing with somebody which we believe
00:24:43
would be Abby and Libby and that puts him at the crime scene that makes him bridge gun
00:24:54
[Music] foreign [Music] [Music] so we're back talking with skip Janice about his Person of Interest
00:25:31
and how this person of interest has acclaimed he was eyewitness he saw BG he's the reason for the first sketch
00:25:40
that was released and that he was there with his girlfriend that changed his story to
00:25:47
that he was there with somebody he was cheating on his girlfriend with shows you the type of character this
00:25:52
individual is and on top of that he just constantly keeps changing his story he said he saw
00:26:00
a bridge guy leaving going toward Freedom Bridge around the same time that flannel shirt guy and Derek would have
00:26:07
been uh talking so they would have had they hadn't been close to each other in proximity to each other at the time he
00:26:15
said he saw him believing there he described him as like I said with the the clothes that BG was wearing seen in
00:26:20
the video and also with a scarf over his face again I can't get over the fact that if you're just a normal guy and
00:26:27
maybe you don't want to come forward right away because you're going to be caught cheating
00:26:32
but you can tell law enforcement that and they don't have to release that information to the public but you can
00:26:39
tell your friends family and girlfriend hey by the way I was there that day well
00:26:45
why were you there oh I was taking a lunch break or whatever reason you have to come up with to tell your friends and
00:26:50
family but you believe that you saw this individual and you're waiting seven days to come
00:26:58
and talk to law enforcement it just seems very suspicious it seems very shady it doesn't
00:27:06
you know pass the sniff test if you will well he said he's he came forward after
00:27:12
the video had been released and said that's the guy I saw that day yeah so when exactly is this photo or video
00:27:20
released after the crime they released the video I think two or three days after the murders
00:27:27
or the photo of the photo taken from the video yeah yeah the still photo was released a few days afterwards it wasn't
00:27:34
until that 2019 press conference that we get the video right and let's be clear about one thing the
00:27:41
younger sketch the second sketch that was released in 2019 was actually created three or four days after the
00:27:49
murders that was actually the first the the others the the old uh Bridge guy sketch was done was not released until
00:27:56
July of 2017 so it was five months before the first sketch was released yet they had the sketch of the younger guy
00:28:04
three or four days after the murders so the second sketch that was released they
00:28:08
had pretty quickly but for some reason this eyewitness comes forward seven or eight days after the murders
00:28:18
gives his account and they go with his sketch at least yeah a week later saying that that was the
00:28:26
guy he came after the uh uh picture was or the photo was was shown on television
00:28:32
he said that's the guy I saw again I'm just curious why you wouldn't come if you saw a suspicious guy there close to
00:28:38
where two girls were killed why you wouldn't come forward immediately Let's Pretend the DP is Bridge guy for a
00:28:44
minute okay he's coming forward now because he has an out that that sketch is his out right he doesn't want to come
00:28:52
forward before like you were getting to that oh I don't want to come forward because
00:28:57
they can identify me if I was there right and so he he sees the sketch it's not doesn't appear to be him to him
00:29:07
so DP comes forward and says yep I I would like to second that I saw that person I was there that day
00:29:14
and saw that person there as well I yeah he actually he saw the video he saw the
00:29:19
video or the pic the photo not the sketch I think he became aware of the sketch I've spoken with person friend of
00:29:25
mine locally whose family as a brother who's in law enforcement that I think is a is an incredible
00:29:31
source and he told me that a lot of local people knew about this there was a second sketch I didn't know what it
00:29:38
looked like obviously earlier but they knew very early on that there was a second sketch I think I think the time
00:29:43
how the timing works is he came after the second sketch had been created uh hadn't been released yet but the second
00:29:50
sketch had been created and that's when he came forward the second sketch that was actually released is actually the
00:29:56
first sketch that they created correct but how is law enforcement getting that information for the second sketch that
00:30:04
was released from a witness a witness that uh saw something it needed to be reported that
00:30:11
day and Skip correct me if I'm wrong it's been my understanding that the second sketch released is based off of
00:30:17
eyewitness statements description right and the first sketch that was released was based off of the
00:30:26
still photo then later video evidence uh and it was all well a lot of people believe that the law enforcements uh
00:30:34
take on it is that it was it was created by multiple Witnesses okay so both of the sketches or law enforcement says
00:30:41
both of the sketches were were created based on uh witness testimony I agree with you though I think that the first
00:30:48
sketch was had the the photo and video had some influence on it and your Person of Interest which we are calling DP I
00:30:55
don't know if you guys picked up on the fact that Nick Cod the person of interest DP we're calling him DP for
00:31:03
legal reasons obviously and for safety reasons for himself but he came forward and was telling people online he was
00:31:10
responsible for the first sketch that was released that's correct yeah again I think that's a little bit unusual that
00:31:17
you know law enforcement usually insists that uh the witnesses don't say anything
00:31:23
in cases like this he's certainly injected himself into the case by speaking on social media kind of getting
00:31:30
a story out there but both of his stories put him with another person at the trails that day right so where's
00:31:39
this other person right I mean if I'm law enforcement that's my first thing I'm going okay DP was there and in story
00:31:46
a he's with so and so and in story B he's with someone else who are these people and do they exist well again I
00:31:57
think I think the reason for the change of the story was that he was with another girl and didn't want that
00:32:03
information getting out I think that was the excuse to get to the Second Story which was the the cheating girl yeah I
00:32:10
think that that probably raised the red flag of some some sorts you know but he was he was considered a witness they
00:32:15
thought that um you know law enforcement seeks Witnesses they know they need Witnesses and this guy came forward
00:32:21
voluntarily so they assumed he was uh said he and described something that looked like what they were seeing on
00:32:27
video so they had no reason not to believe him okay so this DP guy's there he and he's with this girl that he's
00:32:34
cheating on his girl girlfriend with I mean that's pretty scumbag anyways but we don't have
00:32:41
this other girl that he was cheating on his girlfriend with coming forward and saying hey I was there with DP and the
00:32:49
other thing about it too is he's saying he was arguing with this girl that he was with under the bridge again putting
00:32:56
himself and putting whoever this girl he was with if there was even a girl there
00:33:02
with him under the bridge again under the bridge you have to understand that under the
00:33:08
bridge or on the other side of the bridge is all a part of the crime scene so he would be saying Not only was I
00:33:15
cheating with this girl but she was over at the crime scene with me about the same time that the killer would have
00:33:21
been making contact with Abby and Libby but yet yet they didn't see anything again he wasn't seen by anybody except
00:33:29
one person a girl named Cheyenne Ingles and she's the only one there that has corroborated seeing him do we know where
00:33:36
Cheyenne says she saw she never said what exactly where she saw him she said that she her story and
00:33:42
I'll be kind of Frank here I don't I haven't found anything that she said to be truthful she originally said she got
00:33:48
there at 3 50. changed her stories to she got there at 2 50. she showed a picture of uh from the day says that she
00:33:57
said she went there to take pictures she has a picture and it's taken around three o'clock of the bridge she never
00:34:03
said you know she saw what time she saw him just that she saw a heterosexual couple
00:34:10
and also ran into a friend of hers who she said she didn't know was going to be there well the biggest point about DP
00:34:18
being a person of interest is he was at the park that day claims to be in the vicinity of the bridge has changed his
00:34:28
story multiple times now you have Cheyenne that is eyewitness to DP being there but she's constantly changing her
00:34:36
story as well it's very very suspicious I think I think there are four I think there are four people involved in
00:34:42
involved in that equation I think DP Cheyenne Cheryl and a girl named Shelby and I think they that one of them has
00:34:51
has something to do with a car that was parked at the CPS building that law enforcement inquired about so who is
00:34:57
this Shelby she's a friend of uh all they're all friends um she was I know she went to law
00:35:04
enforcement to talk to tell them kind of straighten out the vehicle situation I think there was a lot of confusion about
00:35:10
out where everybody parked what town everybody got there whose cars were there I think she went and told them
00:35:16
that you know her yes her car was there uh and here's how it got there I don't think no I think again nobody saw her
00:35:23
nobody saw DP I don't have any reason to believe she was there because you know there's no there's nobody corroborating
00:35:29
the story that she was there I'm not sure she she ever said she was there yeah she had she and Cheyenne are
00:35:35
friends because they were married to well one was married to uh two brothers one was married and one was uh had a
00:35:42
child with the other brother so they they were friends that way but does Cheyenne ever say when she saw
00:35:49
Cheryl she says she says that Cheryl got there she shine says she got there about
00:35:53
250. she said that Cheryl got there about 2 30. uh she didn't say exactly what point she ran into him
00:36:00
or ran into her I'm sorry so other than so we're going to exclude Shelby because we don't believe that she
00:36:09
was there but other than Cheyenne and Cheryl do we have anybody we don't know who Cheryl was there
00:36:16
either right but do we have anybody at the park seeing DP that day no nobody saw DP except
00:36:26
Cheyenne okay but nobody saw Cheyenne nobody saw Cheryl nobody saw Shelby they all they
00:36:34
all were there at the park in the in the same uh time frame that that several other people were there including FSG
00:36:41
but nobody saw any of them I think again I think the time that the timeline and the vehicles are the critical part of
00:36:51
the case I think it's likely law enforcement knows or has a particular POI Person of
00:36:57
Interest and I think that that was probably gathered from those two things the timelines never made sense amongst
00:37:05
any of the witnesses or any of the people that were there and neither has the vehicle situation so you're telling
00:37:11
me that Cheyenne says I saw DP at the park but we don't know what time claiming she saw him is she saying that
00:37:19
he was with somebody or alone she was saying he was with somebody that was part of the they were part of the
00:37:25
heterosexual couple as how she described it but the person that she's saying he was with is this person acts yes that's
00:37:34
what makes this person so interesting to me is because none of the stories line up none the stories make any sense so if
00:37:43
you're having a hard time following the story well don't blame you because their
00:37:48
stories just don't line up but Cheyenne also said that she saw dp's car in which
00:37:53
parking lot uh it was parked I believe at the mirrors lot but there's an another eyewitness that disputes this
00:38:00
claim yeah there was an eyewitness that drove by around three o'clock and said that
00:38:05
she only saw two cars with all the people who were there say they were there all the people that say they were
00:38:10
there actually were there then there would be a lot more than two cars because we know FSG was there and
00:38:15
possibly parked there um we know Derek was parked there yeah and Derek got there and parked there
00:38:20
around just after three o'clock so it's not clear even where Cheyenne parked right yeah it's in uh
00:38:29
because there's there's reason to question that if she was even there that day absolutely there's she as a matter of
00:38:36
fact she says she leaves at four o'clock and if she's leaving she notices a man who she later finds or realizes is Derek
00:38:45
uh sitting in the parking lot with another person in the in the car doing what looks like a drug deal well
00:38:53
Derek wasn't with anybody that day okay Tara later came and it came but she didn't arrive till 4 10. so how did how
00:39:03
did Cheyenne see see anybody in the car as a matter of fact when when Tara got there she says that Derek jumped in the
00:39:09
car with her so how did Cheyenne see Derek doing what looked like a drug deal at four o'clock it's possible that her
00:39:15
time frame is just off right but they did she got she got in he got in the other car she identified Derek as being
00:39:22
Derek or just some guy she said originally she changed it later on to real when she realized it was Derek or
00:39:29
is that the way she put it she changed she said it was Derek I mean come on people how many times are you going to
00:39:34
keep changing your story again again that just goes to part of the the stories and how they've changed I
00:39:41
understand people's recollection but a lot of this seems a lot more than that than just you know
00:39:49
misinterpreting times and things like that she the reason you know she she knew she got there because at 250
00:39:55
because she remembers a robocall she got and she remembers leaving at four o'clock because she didn't have
00:40:02
good enough uh cell service to upload the picture to Snapchat that she took and she did that
00:40:09
about 10 minutes before four so she knew her times were right or at least she said she knew her times were right well
00:40:16
this is a small town and I think some of this information was getting leaked or at least some rumors were happening it
00:40:23
sounds to me like Cheyenne is having one story and then once she finds out well no Derek was in that area at that time
00:40:31
then she comes back and goes oh it just wasn't some man that I saw it was Derek again we have uh eyewitness that is
00:40:40
changing his story that puts himself at the scene of the crime roughly around the time of the murders doesn't come
00:40:48
forward right away knows the girls uh I believe at some point people said he was following one of them
00:40:56
on Facebook possibly could have been following them on Snapchat said that he rode the bus with them that they lived
00:41:03
you know a couple miles away so he knew the victims but again their stories keep
00:41:08
changing and how suspicious is that then Cheyenne says that she sees dp's car at the other parking lot but it
00:41:17
seems like he would have been parked at the CPS building and waiting for the girls I think it's possible yeah can I
00:41:24
think I think if you if you if you go by what law enforcement says that the car parked at the CPS building could have
00:41:30
possibly been there from as early as 12 o'clock I think uh it seems likely I don't think
00:41:35
the 12 I don't think that the 12 to 5 I think that's just giving them some leeway but I think they know that uh he
00:41:42
was probably there longer than than what what he said so DP is changing his story constantly Cheyenne is
00:41:51
changing her story she is the only one that claims to see his car there we have other credible eyewitnesses that don't
00:41:58
see his car so that's very suspicious why would you be driving somebody else's car to the park that day maybe because
00:42:06
you didn't want your car to be seen because maybe you're going to do something bad possibly again that go
00:42:12
that goes back to you know law enforcement saying in the 2019 press conference that they were looking for
00:42:18
the driver of a vehicle that tells that tells me it's likely that it was uh whoever they were whoever
00:42:25
they're trying to find information of was driving a vehicle that wasn't his a borrowed vehicle but we also believed
00:42:31
that there was an eyewitness that would have saw the driver of that vehicle yeah
00:42:36
I think I think that uh yeah that obviously there was there was a witness that saw
00:42:41
there was a witness that saw somebody that that just that ends up being the second sketch
00:42:47
um I think there's a possibility that that's that was the same person who saw the car uh as as BG was exiting the park
00:42:56
now even though sketch one and sketch two their world's apart but there are some similarities but your Person of
00:43:05
Interest DP matches both of these which is very concerning and the second SketchUp
00:43:13
was the release of the younger individual he matches he matches that sketch more than any
00:43:20
other person of interest I've seen match a sketch now hopefully that gets out to
00:43:26
the internet and people can make their own predictions and own assumptions on that well let me ask you this if
00:43:35
like we mentioned earlier that a lot of locals knew that there was a second sketch early on
00:43:40
if you'd killed some two people and you had gotten you had gotten wind that there was another there was a sketch out
00:43:47
there I mean you obviously yeah or no this at this point I'm talking about the sketch being done three or four days
00:43:53
later because he didn't come forward until after that you got to know what I'm saying is if you killed somebody and
00:43:59
you found out law enforcement didn't just have this photo that they released but they also have a sketch yeah exactly
00:44:06
yeah yeah you would think you had been seen right I mean you you know so that's certainly an incentive to come
00:44:13
forward to explain your words explain your whereabouts and why you were there that day you waited a week to come
00:44:19
forward or at least a week why you know why why did you do that first of all and
00:44:23
secondly uh uh is that is that the is that the reason yeah law enforcement has has thought that this person is
00:44:30
following the case and getting information you want to know what we know and so uh I think it's likely that
00:44:36
somebody was sharing information with him or he had access to that and uh and that's why he came forward well and you
00:44:43
also after you're doing a lot of your research and you're looking into DP you notice that a lot of the comments that
00:44:50
the police officers are making or law enforcement is making about their suspect or when they talking to the
00:44:57
killer that it really applies to the research and the misinformation that they got from these eyewitnesses early
00:45:05
on they talked about we believe that we were lied to early on or that we didn't identify find this person correctly
00:45:14
and so to have the confidence that he had to go into law enforcement and say hey look I was there
00:45:23
I was an eyewitness I saw BG and I think the small town of component comes in here because they believed him because
00:45:30
they said well look at him look at his family and look at what they've done in the community this is a kid that we can
00:45:39
trust and I think they bought whatever story he was selling initially [Music] we want to hear from you check out the
00:45:57
blog at True Crime garage.com so much more to get to in the next episode please join us and until
00:46:05
then be good be kind and don't litter [Music] foreign [Music]