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[Music] % [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:45
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always as a man that likes to rock and roll all night and part of
00:01:50
every day he is the captain well Beth what can I do it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for
00:01:57
listening thanks for telling your friends [Music] tonight the fridge is full with jenesy
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beer garage grade three out of five bottle caps gen Gene jennessy beer is an American
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icon captain and today every can every bottle every pint glass delivers the same full taste and quality that made it
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famous way back in 1878 when you were in high school that was my jam Gennesse J Gene is
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Gennesse is truly a great classic beer and this week's fridge is full thanks to these truly great guys and girls first
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up we have in the Greatest Town in America Parts Unknown we have Alex we also have Lori and we also have Leanne
00:02:44
and just a quick announcement to the great people of Parts Unknown the annual early spring tractor pool has been
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postponed until it stops snowing look for announcements soon hopefully and a big shout out to Ashley in Greensburg
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Pennsylvania let's go north of the Border let's let's say thank you to Ladonna up in Fort McMurray Canada also
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in Canada a shout out to Karina in Ottawa wait want to do one more Canada shout out a longdistance cheers to
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Torina and Port Coquitlam British columia M there is no way that you got that correct it's um it's a built it's a
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built time that you start looking this stuff up let's give a cheers to Tiffany and Bellman Iowa and last but not least
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we have Amy from Kirkland Washington thanks cheers everybody thanks to everybody for filling up the fridge for
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this week's show if you want to help us out with next week's show go to True Crim garage.com click on the Donate
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button and we have some uh special announcements coming up soon some things to tell you but if you're not listening
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on the Stitcher app you want to go download that Stitcher app for free today and that's enough of the business
00:03:48
everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music]
00:04:39
the following is taken from letters to John Paul Fay from Arthur shawcross written behind Prison
00:04:49
Walls hello John you can call me art if you want the stationary you chose is quite good reminds me of someone I knew
00:04:58
one time tied up blindfolded and gagged as good her legs would not be tied wide open I like blondes brunettes redheads
00:05:11
or whatever but I am choosy in the type I crave but at times I lose control and it's as if I made a snuff
00:05:21
film you forgot to mention a saw or two my specialty is the Keyhole saw it's what I used on three victims
00:05:32
then you have the jigsaw real Handy OJ didn't kill Nicole his friend did think about it he also had a white
00:05:43
Bronco it's very strange it was gotten rid of right away so you tell me something worth looking
00:05:53
into John if you want a woman for the winter pull one of the homeless she will like it in inside all winter then in the
00:06:01
spring let her go I've been there all winter with two women in the apartment what tastes better than
00:06:11
pork Jeffrey dmer was into eating and torturing his homosexual Partners as for me I only ate certain
00:06:19
parts quite tasty at that don't need salt either Ed gan's last victim was just about like one of mine
00:06:30
but not tied up mine was laying back legs open with a silly grin on her mug John the sa man every human no
00:06:41
matter what color looks the same after they're skinned you go to Southern Cal stay away
00:06:47
from any earthquake section AIDS lets you and I waste some morons be cool pal don't hurt anyone at
00:06:58
least don't get caught at it gotta go pal Good Day [Music] art anamarie stefen age 27 was an
00:07:20
emaciated sex worker who took to working the streets to support a drug habit she
00:07:26
was last seen alive on Saturday July 8 1989 while walking along ly Avenue Arthur shawcross had met her by the
00:07:36
princess restaurant on Lake Avenue and he walked with her to the back of the YMCA he then drove her down to the
00:07:44
driving Park and during oral sex he grabbed her throat and strangled her before rolling her body over the edge of
00:07:53
the jese River Gorge it is reported that she was frustrated after Arthur could not get an erection after 40 minutes
00:08:02
it's also alleged that she threatened to tell the police that she had seen Arthur
00:08:07
Shaw cross with dosi remember she was the victim that we discussed yesterday MH Anam Marie's body was found on Sunday
00:08:15
September 11th 1988 this is by Hector Maldonado while he was searching for returnable bottles so that he could save
00:08:23
up some money to buy cigarettes the victim was lying on her left side curled in a semi fetal position a pair of
00:08:31
Calvin Klein jeans were pulled down around the ankles and turned inside out a white tank top with red shoulder
00:08:38
straps was wrapped around the right wrist and a clump of hair had been ripped from the skull the eyes were
00:08:46
missing from their sockets now just 3 weeks later on Saturday July 29th 1989 Dorothy Keller this was supposedly
00:08:57
Shaw cross's friend would be his third victim now she was different from the first two in the
00:09:05
sense that she was not a sex worker she was a 58-year-old woman she was homeless and
00:09:11
sha cross had met Dorothy while when she worked as a waitress and a diner that he
00:09:17
had gone to the two struck up a friendship which had quickly turned into an affair on an afternoon this was um on
00:09:26
his way to fish in the river mm he stopped when he saw Keller to speak with her when she found out where he was
00:09:34
going she asked if he could take her with him and he agreed according to sha cross they spent the morning fishing and
00:09:41
making love until around midday when it started to rain now didn't she live with
00:09:46
them at some point I believe so there there there were a couple people that sha cross had affairs with or so he
00:09:55
would later claim because we have this individual here that would end up a murder victim that that can't tell us
00:10:03
otherwise mhm um and one thing that I think that we're going to see here with Shaw cross is there seems to be a reason
00:10:12
for most of these murders or at least a reason that he has made up in his mind you know either um the the woman made
00:10:20
fun of him or bit him or assaulted him or tried to Rob him and therefore he lost control and decided to kill them
00:10:28
and with Dorothy uh the interview that I saw Arthur was saying that Dorothy lived
00:10:33
with him and that he also paid her was some weird amount like $432 or something to clean the apartment
00:10:41
yeah he would claim that there was a couple things that sent him into a rage you know they're they're huddling
00:10:47
together in this crude shelter that Shaw cross put together while it rains out there and he states that while they're
00:10:55
huddling together they get into some kind of argument and it's starts off with an argument about her stealing
00:11:01
money and then it turns into their arguing about his relationships that he has with rose and with Clara he claimed
00:11:10
that she started to threaten him telling saying that she was going to tell the other women about their affair right and
00:11:18
this is when Arthur Shaw cross became angry he picked up a small log and he beat her on the side of the head uh
00:11:26
until he killed her now he he hit her body under a fallen tree and then he went home her body was found on October
00:11:36
21st but he later told police that at one time he had returned to the spot several months later and removed the
00:11:43
skull and dumped it in the river yeah and in the interview I saw they said oh how did you you know remove
00:11:52
the skull he said you just do you just do yeah he doesn't have that big of an accent but yeah sounded better sounded
00:12:02
better in my head on Friday September 29th 1989 Patricia IES this was another Lake Avenue sex worker also known as
00:12:11
crazy Patty she was um 25 years old at the time drug dependent a high school dropout she did have a a baby a young
00:12:21
child uh who had been placed in foster care some say that she once was a very attractive woman that she she used to
00:12:30
Bear more of a resemblance to the film star Julia Roberts um but by this point because the drugs had taken their toll
00:12:38
and she was a bit of a walking skeleton she had uh ragged and unkempt hair uh and she also had needle marks from her
00:12:48
elbows to her fingers yeah that's sad it was also believed that she might have had the AIDS virus now Arthur shawcross
00:12:57
claims that she offered him sex for $25 um when he approached the same Diner where Dorothy Keller had worked he
00:13:07
agreed to this and they went to a construction site while there uh and while having sex shoss says that he
00:13:16
caught IES trying to remove his wallet and pushed her hard against the ground she began to cry and he raped her and
00:13:25
began to strangle her until she didn't move anymore sha cross said that there were
00:13:32
children playing nearby and he states that I put my hand over her mouth and held her nose she didn't struggle she
00:13:40
didn't holler she didn't fight that he knew her and that Patty had been in the company of a white male who was riding a
00:13:48
bike with balloon tires there were fishing rods protruding from the Cycle's rear baskets Patty was reported missing
00:13:57
the following day by her pimp SL booyfriend who on the streets went by the name get get ready for this okay
00:14:06
this is went by the name is the Pimp's name yes okay rat face Billy you can't make this stuff up I'm
00:14:15
telling you who's your who's your boyfriend oh you know old rat face uh we shouldn't laugh uh po Patty's
00:14:25
body was found by children who were looking for a lost baseball on Friday October 27th when they saw a foot
00:14:34
sticking out from a pile of flattened cardboard the corpse was clothed in black pants and a sweatshirt lying face
00:14:41
up and a wedding ring was missing from her finger there were no shoes or socks on the body and maggots had devoured
00:14:50
most of the Flesh on October 23rd 1989 June stot uh was 30 years old was the youngest of
00:15:00
eight children she was homeless she apparently heard mysterious voices in her head and had been taken to sleeping
00:15:07
on Lyle Avenue now she's she's different in a sense that she's not a sex worker or a drug addict this is something that
00:15:17
you and I have spoke about before on our little show here our little garage show
00:15:21
that taking care of people that have mental health issues yeah but I mean I also think we have issues with you know
00:15:28
trying to take care of you know the sex workers I mean whether it's you know should be legal or shouldn't be legal I
00:15:35
mean we have to do a better job well I only point that out here because from everything I could gather it appears
00:15:42
that this this young woman was simply homeless because of of the problems she had and it wasn't due to drugs or
00:15:50
anything of that nature that she simply needed to be taken care of and didn't have anyone to help her with this yeah
00:15:58
now cross you know this is this is what we will see time and time again from from Monsters like sha cross they will
00:16:06
find somebody they will come across somebody with uh let's say what he would determine to be a weakness and he's
00:16:13
going to pre upon that person and make them further victimize them because he can yeah and he's going to talk her into
00:16:21
going fishing with them which we know is a bad thing well and when they're down by the water he's trying to talk her and
00:16:28
into having sex with with him and she refuses and he says this is when he decided to strangle her yeah now 2 days
00:16:36
later he returned to the body and he dragged it down into the um there's an area there with those large
00:16:43
Cattails uh he dragged the body there and using a knife he cut open her body from the breast bone to the crotch he
00:16:51
then gutted her like a a fish using his words throwing the entrails into the river
00:16:59
on Thursday November hold on I just want to point out that in the interview I watched on him he claims that this
00:17:06
attack happened and he didn't leave he was there all day and that he actually cut her open beforehand before returning
00:17:14
to the body right now that's what he claims now the only reason why I bring that up is that you see a lot of times
00:17:20
in his stories now he's either misremembering or he's making stuff up as he correct yeah and on Thursday
00:17:29
November 23rd a man walking his dog he noticed an ice covered object it was a piece of carpet under which was the
00:17:37
badly decomposed body of June stot the corpse was face down but lividity staining showed that she had been rolled
00:17:45
over long after death the right leg was bent inward at the knee elevating the buttocks and suggesting the possibility
00:17:54
of intercourse after death with the body the vagina was missing from the body and
00:18:00
Arthur Shaw cross later said that he had ate it yeah and wow this is a graphic show um but law enforcement are now well
00:18:10
aware that they're looking for a serial killer well that's kind of a unique situation I guess in the sense that
00:18:17
that's not always the case you know sometimes they arrest a guy for a murder and then later find out that he's guilty
00:18:25
of three or four or five right here we have enough of a consistency in victims and how often they are finding these
00:18:35
victims that they're well aware that they're probably looking for they're at least looking for a serial killer mhm
00:18:42
it's undetermined if all of these are connected to the same guy or not yeah so they actually had a couple sting
00:18:48
operations that they set up and having police officers go undercover and because you know a lot of these victims
00:18:56
were sex workers so they were trying to you know figure this out now what Arthur
00:19:02
talks about in his interview is that he used to hang on at the Dunkin' donuts and he happened to be wearing like for
00:19:10
whatever reason he says some very shiny shoes and so when these officers were in
00:19:15
there talking about this stuff that they kind of just assume because of his shiny
00:19:19
shoes that he was law enforcement okay but none of them were dressed in uniform so they started talking about H how
00:19:27
they're trying to run this sting operation mhm and basically by just being at that dut shop he learned I know
00:19:35
there's probably a bunch of cop jokes out there with the donut shop but he learned all the decoys and so he could
00:19:41
stay away from them right right he would he would overhear these officers talking
00:19:46
about their investigation at times he was even speaking with them and it he was a regular in several diners and
00:19:53
coffee shops and this allowed him access to those uh individual ual now there were several victims in the course of
00:20:01
November of 1989 Marie Welch Francis Brown there's one that I do want to talk about in
00:20:09
particular this is a story from early November 1989 a Woman by the name of Joanne van nostran told police about a
00:20:18
client named Mitch a guy that called himself Mitch who had paid her to play dead the man also tried to strangle her
00:20:27
she pulled a knife on on him and fought him off this was the first Real Lead the
00:20:33
investigators received it was the second time that the man with the same physical
00:20:38
description named either Mike or Mitch had been mentioned in reference to the murders interviews with many of the
00:20:46
Lyall Street sex workers indicated that he was a regular and that he had the reputation of being violent with the
00:20:55
women and Elizabeth Gibson was also one of his Vic VI yes she was last seen working the streets on Lyall Avenue on
00:21:02
Saturday November 25th her body was found just 2 Days Later by a deer hunter walking through the woods now at this
00:21:11
crime scene police discovered Tire impressions in the muddy ground and they also discovered blue paint chips uh from
00:21:18
where a vehicle had scraped a tree now this paint would later be matched to Claire's blue Dodge Omni this was of
00:21:26
course a vehicle that sh cross often borrowed the his ninth victim or believed to be ninth victim was Darlene
00:21:35
trippy aged 32 she was last seen Alive by her sister on Friday December 15th it wasn't until after his arrest that sha
00:21:43
cross was able to direct police to Darlene's frozen body I want to point out something though here Captain we
00:21:52
we're seeing a frequency to this aren't we I mean we're talking about multiple victims in in the same month we're
00:21:59
talking about what they would later say probably 11 victims is what we're looking at is is pretty much a
00:22:08
certainty uh probably more victims were involved in this series that were not included in his later convictions
00:22:17
possibly yeah but we're seeing we're seeing what we've seen from time to time before you know when we discussed Ted
00:22:24
Bundy or the Green River Killer where you see a guy that has this capability that has murder on his mind who is
00:22:32
appears to almost have spiraled out of control to the point where he's murdering two three people a month well
00:22:39
let's talk about how old noodle dick is caught well so the investigation kind of
00:22:45
works like this we have most of the victims were sex workers who worked in the red light district of lake and ly
00:22:52
Avenues the women were either strangled or beaten to death and each was disposed
00:22:57
of naked or partially clothed around the city and close to or in water most of the victims had debris stuffed into
00:23:05
their ears nose and other body cavities their clothes were often found neatly folded or close to the corpses which
00:23:13
ranged in decomposition from skeletal to preserved in several instances the body
00:23:19
exhibited signs of having been partially eaten by wild animals or cannibalized by
00:23:25
the killer himself recognizing the these patterns the Rochester Police doubled the size of
00:23:31
its physical crimes unit round thee clock surveillance by Rochester PD Tactical Unit focused attention on the
00:23:38
red light district where many of the victims were last seen to be alive the services of the FBI profilers were
00:23:45
called upon to complete a psychological profile of the serial killer the successful capture of Arthur J shawcross
00:23:54
was due to an equal combination of good luck and dogged police work ultimately though it was the mindset of this
00:24:02
psychopath that ultimately sealed his Fate One of Shaw cross's last victims was June cisero she was aged 34 she was
00:24:12
a strong character with a drug habit she had arrived in Rochester from Brooklyn New York in
00:24:18
1973 and she had been well known on the streets of Rochester where she was regarded as something of a mother figure
00:24:25
to many of the younger women who operated in the red light district she was a pistol yes June suddenly
00:24:32
disappeared Without a Trace from the red light district uh this was on the late evening of Sunday December 17th
00:24:40
1989 now where this comes into play here Captain is a police helicopter crew spotted her Frozen corpse lying in the
00:24:48
icy Salmon Creek on Wednesday January 3rd 1990 the body was naked except for a white sweater and white white socks
00:24:59
Arthur shawcross was seen standing on a nearby bridge by the same helicopter and
00:25:05
he was seen dropping something into the creek before driving off in the vehicle it was this incident that would later
00:25:13
lead to his arrest well this is kind of confusing uh so the body was found on thei and what we think based off a
00:25:21
reports is on the fourth is when they would see him cuz what what law enforcement started to understand is
00:25:31
whoever is committing these murders is going back to the scene so the he probably um probably dumped her body
00:25:40
before the third she was found on the third probably the fourth is when he is caught which in my reports he's
00:25:48
urinating on the bridge some have speculated that he was uh masturbating on the bridge well and I think I think
00:25:54
in regards to that Captain they couldn't determine what it was he was doing I think they could determine that possibly
00:26:01
his pants were down or his fly was unzipped yeah and then so I think they ended up pulling him over well what what
00:26:10
they ultimately end up doing is the vehicle that he is in that night they're able to trace that vehicle and they they
00:26:16
trace that vehicle back to him in a sense that they connected to him because it belongs to one of the women that he's
00:26:24
seeing remember he's taking turns driving his wife's car and his girlfriend's car from time to time to
00:26:31
pick up these women to commit these murders well when they trace this vehicle back to him it doesn't take long
00:26:38
for them to run his his background and figure out that this dude has murdered people in the past he's been convicted
00:26:44
of one murder right and what they decide to do is they decide to okay he he claims that he had no involvement in any
00:26:53
of this however they're going to give him the night to rest but they're going to observe him they're going to surveil
00:27:01
him they're going to keep him under their watchful eye early that next morning is when they take him down to
00:27:08
the police headquarters one thing that the detectives that spoke to Arthur shawcross in his questioning or
00:27:17
interrogation whatever you want to call it this was not FBI agents these were local detectives and they kind of picked
00:27:25
up on some personality traits of Arthur sha cross very quickly into speaking with him one they found that he was a
00:27:32
talker he that he liked to talk that he liked to open up if you kept him comfortable he would keep speaking to
00:27:37
you mhm the other thing he seemed to want never trust a talker he seemed to want to be their friends in some kind of
00:27:45
weird way even though he was denying all their claims he seemed to be want wanting to be their friends in the sense
00:27:52
that he wanted to open up to them mhm they used a tactic that I found pretty interesting
00:27:58
which is a little bit weird because this guy has got no soul my friend this guy has got no conscience this guy does not
00:28:05
care about human beings or life in general I mean he even said in his interview I have no remorse yes and what
00:28:14
they do is they start saying look we don't want it you need to fess up to these murders because we don't
00:28:21
want anybody else to get in trouble for this and what they meant was okay you're
00:28:25
using your wife's car to Comm these murders you're using your girlfriend's car to commit these murders those two
00:28:32
one of those two are both had to know what you were up to one of those two or both maybe were helping you commit these
00:28:39
murders yeah and he simply just said after hours and hours of them questioning him and things coming at him
00:28:47
is what he said yeah is he just got tired of it so he just confessed yeah and so he confesses to the murders um
00:28:54
not all of the series that they had at the time I believe it was 14 or 15 murders in total that they had uh
00:29:01
questioned him about he would later confess to many of them actually leading them to a couple of the bodies that had
00:29:08
been undiscovered at that time but it was just in December of 1990 when Arthur shawcross was convicted of killing 10
00:29:17
women after jurors decided he was sane and deliberated for only 6 and 1 half hours the judge sentenced him to 25
00:29:25
years for each count a total of 250 years imprisonment a few months later Shaw cross was taken to Wayne County and
00:29:33
tried for Elizabeth Gibson's murder rather than claim insanity this time he pled guilty and received a further life
00:29:44
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[Music] that all right cheers me mate cheers captain now prison officials said that Arthur
00:32:07
shawcross complained of a pain in his leg on the afternoon of November 10th 2018 he was taken to Albany Medical
00:32:16
Center where he went into cardiac arrest Arthur sha cross died that evening at 9:50 p.m. he was cremated and later his
00:32:26
ass es were given to his daughter now before his death there was a relationship that Arthur Shaw cross
00:32:34
developed a penp pal relationship with a man named John Paul Fay and earlier this
00:32:40
year a book came out called the shawcross letters which gives an inside look at Arthur shawcross one of
00:32:47
America's most notorious serial killers the shawcross letters is a graphic and dramatic True Crime book that will
00:32:55
horrify enlighten and keep you up at night author Brian Whitney teamed up with John Paul Fay to write this book to
00:33:04
show us what happens when one of the most evil men in the history of America meets a man he trusts enough to share
00:33:11
his darkest secrets with and on the phone with us here in the garage is John Paul Fay the man that was penp Pals with
00:33:19
convicted serial killer Arthur shawcross now John this is kind of interesting because Arthur actually reached out to
00:33:26
you you didn't actually reach out to him well first of all reach out to me first
00:33:32
and uh initially I was selling some of his artwork on eBay back when he could sell the murder ailia and I ended up
00:33:39
with his artwork through interesting trades I did with uh say fans of his quote unquote groupies and I used to
00:33:46
sell various videotapes and that type of thing like uncut horror movies and uh so
00:33:50
when I got those drawings I decided to resell them and uh Arthur discovered this and he ended up getting my address
00:33:58
from one of his fans believe it or not with whom I've uh traded and one day I went to the mailbox and there was a
00:34:04
letter from the Solan Correctional Facility Arthur Shar Crossing of course the first I was uh a bit taken aback I
00:34:11
went to a quiet spot to read the letter away from so-called family members and he had mentioned that he knew I was
00:34:17
selling some of his artwork and all this stuff and I wasn't sure how to take it initially you know I uh you know if I
00:34:23
should feel threatened but so I I just collected Myself and I wrote him back a letter it was uh you know a very
00:34:30
gentlemanly letter there no uh no problems I just said that if you could do more drawings basically you know we
00:34:36
could we could split the proceeds and go from there and so he got back to me and
00:34:40
uh said sure basically that's a great idea let's go ahead with that and so we we started he started uh doing artwork
00:34:47
for for me which i' resell and split split that with him I just got him a money order so then we just uh we
00:34:52
developed a friendship from there and it became very close where I I hate to say
00:34:57
it I mean I saw him as a kind of father fig just because my own life has been so
00:35:03
Twisted as far as male uh Role Models quote unquote and it just it got strange obviously it's s deep down the rabbit
00:35:10
hole that type of thing but that's where I live anyway you know I've always um been a very kind of Twisted dark
00:35:17
character myself but say similar thoughts to a I say a Jeffrey dmer kind of Jeffrey dmer 2.0 dmer if you were a
00:35:24
writer I think but of course I've come uh very close to engaging those activities myself but I mean I think
00:35:32
that that's a the summary all right so you uh did hear that correctly you're probably listening and going what I'm
00:35:39
more of the Jeffrey dmer type what is John talking about well so he gets some items from Arthur and he's selling them
00:35:48
on eBay and then Arthur reaches out to him and he says hey if you draw some more drawings I can sell these and as
00:35:56
they're communicating back and forth John opens up to to Arthur and says hey man I got some dark thoughts that I have
00:36:05
yeah it sounds like John you know has a a troubled past a possibly troubled childhood um that we can ask more
00:36:14
questions about but this leading to alcoholism some drug use and some very dark fantasies to which he's going to
00:36:23
confide his thoughts and feelings with this monster Arthur shawcross who's reached out to him so John you say that
00:36:31
a friendship developed between you and sha cross now during the course of this friendship in the beginning stages was
00:36:39
it simply just business as usual for Shaw Cross or was he trying to manipulate you or use you in any way no
00:36:46
no I never felt manipulated uh it was a part business and and part friendly once
00:36:52
he figured out who what type of person I was and I did explain that to him in the
00:36:57
letter that you know I really am in a kind of similar position psychologically then he loosened up and he got very
00:37:04
friendly uh after that I mean long after I I stopped selling his artwork because
00:37:08
eBay banned it we getting along and you know and uh and even that was before we got into the book too for there was a
00:37:16
period there where we just uh there was a letter about every two weeks and he didn't present himself as a celebrity we
00:37:21
just uh like a friend we we just got into some uh strange topics in regard to uh you know cannibalism and uh murder
00:37:30
and and all that fun stuff I guess I mean um you know I don't see eye to eye with him on on everything and I don't
00:37:38
necessarily agree on on what he did but I certainly I understand it as far as identifying with u serial killers it
00:37:45
would be more along the lines of a dber they say killing for company that type of thing Arthur Shaw cross himself I
00:37:51
consider it more of a destroyer he more like a kind of a human Terminator as I put it for some reason we did hit it off
00:37:58
was it was beyond uh Way Beyond the business that was actually a small portion of it our relationship um you
00:38:05
know just again just like two friends talking and you know over a beer or something like that well John I think uh
00:38:11
me and the colonel have different conversations than you and Arthur had John did this ever go beyond just
00:38:17
letters did you ever go meet him in person he uh that that was a kind of a a contentious deal there because uh toward
00:38:25
the end of our relationship because I told I was supposed to go and meet him up in New York and uh I had just come
00:38:31
back from Arizona investing in in a lowbudget movie and kind of exhausted my funds so I was going to take a little
00:38:36
while to for to get up there so when I wrote him telling him I was going to visit he thought that was going to be
00:38:41
right away so he he said well I thought I thought you said you were going to visit and he was angry about that I said
00:38:45
well just give me another month or so collect my funds but uh you know things started falling apart after that that
00:38:51
was again towards the end end of our relationship but he was upset that I didn't get to to visit him he thought he
00:38:57
was going to come up to see him a lot sooner all right so sha cross and Son of Sam were actually in the same prison
00:39:04
together yeah and I heard that Arthur shawcross actually despised David burkowitz the Son of Sam did he ever
00:39:12
mention that to you John oh I resented him yeah the money that burtz makes and money that he did not make shr himself
00:39:20
oh yeah it was just it was resentment that burz was a little more popular against got got more fun funding than
00:39:28
him yeah so we did talk about him over the years there have been several books written about Arthur Shaw cross and many
00:39:34
newspaper and magazine articles was sha cross keeping tabs on what was written about him was he was he reading his own
00:39:42
material yeah absolutely he absolutely did he did a lot of reading in general but he definitely kept up on his own
00:39:49
press and uh whatever books are written about him yes did sha cross ever mention
00:39:53
the book The misbegotten Son by Jack Olsen yeah yeah and I'm remembering now actually yes he had mentioned Jack Olsen
00:40:01
several times actually he sent me an envelope like with Jack Olson's return address on it sha cross had signed you
00:40:08
know so yeah actually I have an envelope here with Jack ol's return a dress on it
00:40:13
believe it or not not that I'm thinking of it John did Arthur ever ask you about
00:40:17
females in your life maybe your mother sister or girlfriend or somebody uh yeah once in a while he he would ask what was
00:40:24
going on in my life as far as uh females but uh you know for the most part I was
00:40:29
uh isolated you know he asked about my uh cousin Michelle for instance and uh who was actually for a period there
00:40:38
pregnant at the time and he would uh joke about that say for instance uh he never mentioned my mother sister or
00:40:45
anything but uh yeah definitely like the the focus was on my pregnant cousin Michelle at the time yeah did he ever
00:40:52
ask you to send him things or pictures of these women just a picture of uh her pregnant basically um which he did a
00:41:03
copy of a picture of photo of my cousin Michelle showing her her belly there at the time but that was more for comedy
00:41:12
sake really did he ever ask you to send him anything uh anything weird or anything that would be considered
00:41:19
contraband he never requested anything I sent him stuff that They confiscated but
00:41:24
uh yeah he never directly quested anything he knew would be confiscated yeah all right so we're not going to ask
00:41:31
you about that but uh John after you told Shaw cross about some of your darker fantasies do you feel like he
00:41:38
ever tried to manipulate you or send you encrypted messages to kind of point you
00:41:44
in the direction or push you over the edge and get you to do some of the horrible things that he has done yeah
00:41:51
and I guess I read between the lines kind of way it say things like be good or be good at it you know and and uh we
00:41:56
both knew what you were talking about there in that regard and about uh pressure points how to where how to
00:42:02
choke a person properly along those lines so yeah there you go the answer is yes he was kind of
00:42:12
teaching me uh I guess how how to kill or or hurt people yeah but do you think he was trying to push you in that
00:42:19
direction he didn't seem to directly want that but he didn't seem to be against it either um you know he knew
00:42:27
where I was in my life so he he didn't discourage my line of thinking you know at all you know so it only seem like he
00:42:34
was encouraging it and whether he meant to or not he he he was and you know talking about how to pick a pitch hikers
00:42:43
and again choke them you know beheadings and you know that all that lovely stuff
00:42:49
yeah and and of course cannibalism is often a topic of discussion between he and I you how to how to he kind of I
00:42:58
guess instructing me on how to properly cook a human being for instance yeah again I guess the simple
00:43:06
answer is yes in his own way he was again wasn't discouraging me at all so I know that you guys spoke about
00:43:15
cannibalism a lot because that is one of your dark fantasies a lot of times when he ate
00:43:23
pieces of people it was raw but uh other times he had mentioned say uh roasting the say calf muscle and uh over a Open
00:43:32
Flame and uh indulging in that and basically it was focused on like the calf muscles and the I guess
00:43:40
the buttocks of women in particular yes so he would uh he he talked about that quite a bit with me
00:43:48
actually he went back and forth on that and uh I you know I I don't necessarily agree again with his uh type of
00:43:56
cannibalism because his was more a destruction cannibalism and uh my interest would be again something like U
00:44:03
absorbing the person somebody you have affection for um assimilation you know kind of a quick and dirty way to upload
00:44:11
a person Soul into your own soul uh his was more uh I would say barbaric mine would be more ritual I
00:44:18
suppose I mean my interest anyway how long did your correspondence go on with uh Arthur
00:44:25
shawcross it was like uh a little over five years and it was about a letter every two weeks like I say now there's
00:44:31
an article out there that states that you had said at one point in your life Arthur shawcross was more of a father
00:44:39
figure or maybe even a better Father Figure to you than your own father or males in your
00:44:47
life yes well that's also true the uh male figures in my life have been brutal in ignorance you know and like uh even
00:44:56
worse than sure opinion just well in in a in a sense in a sense I mean where they I mean they abused uh abused me
00:45:03
growing up in in one way or another basically it was just physical or verbal abuse but uh my my own father he he
00:45:11
never mentally grew up but he's Vicious he's still basically nine years old mentally but he's extremely vicious and
00:45:17
aggressive and then my surrogate father uh my Uncle Jerry he was a brutal man you know he he was vicious and violent
00:45:25
and so I had no one to really turn to and you know like friends they're alls Psychopaths and criminals and so I mean
00:45:34
it was so bad I ended up seeing uh sh cross I guess as the lesser of evils as they say you know and I got along with
00:45:40
them a hell of a lot better than the other male figures in my life you know so that's that's how that goes well and
00:45:46
John and just to be clear we're not saying that that Shaw cross is a better person or a better man than these two
00:45:53
individuals we're just simply saying that your correspondence with him he treated you with more respect maybe
00:46:01
kindness and friendship than these others have shown you yeah well that's exactly it that's it that's how bad
00:46:06
that's what I'm saying that's how bad the other men were had it turned to a one of the worst
00:46:12
serial killer cannibals this world ever known so there you go it's my life what did you know about Shaw cross before he
00:46:19
reached out to you well again throughout my life I had been seeking somebody I could uh again kind of with or identify
00:46:30
with you know so I I've been studying say stereo pillars and occults uh since I was uh n nine or 10 years old I
00:46:38
started with a Zodiac Killer again because I I was feeling differently than everybody else I knew it was different
00:46:44
and I was just searching some answers you know so that's the main reason I got into it so I had read by that time 2000
00:46:50
I had read a couple of books about him uh Jack olsson's book and uh Bill Norris material and uh so I I I did know about
00:46:59
him I had read a had read about him and uh at the very least if not seeing at least a documentary about him and he
00:47:06
discovered you because you were selling things on eBay was sha cross interested in any of your collections well let's
00:47:14
see he was fascinated with the shrunken head collection um was I would again I I
00:47:20
would be collecting uh I collected trunk and head replica trunk and head well one
00:47:24
was made out of a real human scale apparently but uh yeah collecting those and he was very interested I don't think
00:47:30
he'd be collecting them themselves he didn't seem like much of a collector type but he was very interested in it
00:47:36
made some about it but yeah I used to collect the shrunken heads and and mummified heads mummified heads so um
00:47:43
yeah I I've since sold them but uh i' like to start recollecting at some point yeah I did get to hold a real one
00:47:51
the the man I sold him to he actually he had a real authentic one I got to hold as a a little Museum as a tattoo parlor
00:47:59
that I visited and yeah so that was an interesting experience very interesting day that was a day for a lot of
00:48:05
th yeah get into that another time but yeah what was your takeaway from this pinp pal relationship with this Cal
00:48:12
killer yeah well it it uh it's a very uh Twisted thing to say but I almost felt uh wanted and accepted that was the main
00:48:23
thing that there was someone out there who would accept me I I guess that that's the bottom line and that sums it
00:48:30
up other than people's interest in True Crime what are the other reasons to go out and pick up your book yeah it's
00:48:37
that's a thing it's not meant to be uh gratuitous um and it's not one dimensional it's not just uh like I'm
00:48:43
just stuck and stagnant at this phase where I'm thinking this way this is about a recovery from it a recovery from
00:48:50
I say purging my Boogeyman uh from from this type of thinking and uh as well as the addictions to alcohol and drugs I
00:48:58
mean that's what it's about it's about coming out on the other side of this at the end of it and if thing is if
00:49:04
somebody else is having either uh these types of thoughts or addictions the main
00:49:09
thing is you have to find someone you trust you could talk to you got to talk about it you have to find a therapeutic
00:49:14
way to exercise these these demons without hurting anybody that that's the main thing that's what you got to get
00:49:19
across I'm not just sitting here drooling and grinning maniacally I I really I this is about my getting better
00:49:26
you know that's the point and I I've I've improved almost 180 degree turn almost maybe it's 17 so but I'm getting
00:49:33
there but yeah this is really I recovered for the most part from uh that again that frequency of thought as I I
00:49:41
say um but yeah that's the thing it's really not meant to be a you know again something where I'm reving in the evil
00:49:49
it's not that at all you know because this was therapeutic to write the book this is a therapy for me again you know
00:49:56
to work out these demons in as diplomatic and healthy a way as I could you know that was the main thing that
00:50:02
you know I had to get it out of my [Music] system well of course Captain our recommended reading this week is the
00:50:23
shaw cross letters my journey into the mind of Evil by John Paul Fay and Brian Whitney you can pick that up at Amazon
00:50:31
or wherever books are sold I want to thank uh Brian and John for chatting with us and all of our recommended
00:50:39
readings are on our website so check out truecar.com click on the recommended page and if you're not listening on the
00:50:45
Stitcher app make sure you download it we'll be announcing something very soon about partnering with them on a cool
00:50:51
project all right well thank you Captain very exciting stuff and thank you to every everybody out there until next
00:50:56
time be good be kind and don't [Music] [Applause] litter you can start your day off right when
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