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[Music] % [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you doing thanks for
00:01:46
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00:01:52
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check those out and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's
00:03:59
let's talk some true [Music] crime Mike I tell you what you had some involvement maybe more hands off than
00:04:32
Hands-On I don't know but you were at least the one that brought it to my attention that the 340 zodiac Cipher if
00:04:40
I got that title right was in the process of of being solved and and was in fact solved what 51 years later you
00:04:50
want to tell us a little bit of that story yeah so the the Zodiac's first Cipher 408 was 408 characters was solved
00:04:57
pretty quickly by the gens couple out of Selenas California but then the next cyer zodiac scent the 340 people thought
00:05:06
okay the first one is easy enough let's crack this one and the uh Navy uh CIA people like that over the years had no
00:05:16
luck cracking it and then a million so-called code Breakers you know professional and
00:05:24
amateur um develop programs and everything else trying to solve it and and the issue was a lot of them went
00:05:33
about trying to solve it by forcing things to fit in their words they expected to find people's names they
00:05:40
expected to find they sort of went into it trying to solve it with a a preconceived notion of what should be in
00:05:46
there and um that's not the way right way to uh approach that one of my friends Dave Warren who runs who runs a
00:05:55
good site about it and has a good YouTube channel about the ciphers he's uh been an expert and consulted on many
00:06:02
programs and stuff for this specific topic and he developed software along with a team that he put together and
00:06:13
they actually were able to come up with the correct solution you know after looking at so many fake ones and false
00:06:20
ones that people had presented over the years you know I think he was a little bit surprised when when what they found
00:06:26
revealed some real words that weren't you know jammed in there they just naturally fell into place so once they
00:06:34
tinkered a little bit more with it uh the message came out pretty clearly and they sent the uh results to the the FBI
00:06:42
obviously and and they confirmed that they were right it was a little bit U unar moving the message that was
00:06:49
actually there um I liken it too that scene out of a Christmas story when Ralphie gets the little docoda ring and
00:06:57
it's be sure to drink your oval team this was essentially something like that it was just very uneventful and um not
00:07:07
really much to it now based on the codes because it's one thing to make calls to
00:07:13
police or write letters to police but the to the level of sophistication jumps up significantly by
00:07:21
adding codes and ciphers into the equation of zodiac do you think that zodiac had either just a higher level of
00:07:30
IQ or do you think he had some higher level of training or possibly higher education well there's definitely some
00:07:38
military connections and some of the clues you know there were wing walker boots found at the you know the lake
00:07:47
barasa crime scene there tracks there and those were sold at pxs for the most part designed to walk on the wings of
00:07:55
planes for for Airmen so there's always been the possibility that zodiac was military and maybe because of that he
00:08:02
could have had training in code codes and ciphers in the military but then again a lot of the stuff that he used
00:08:11
some of the symbols specifically were available in books that were available at the library as well so I I think it's
00:08:20
it's possible that he could have just been an amateur who liked codes and ciphers sort of like the hardens that
00:08:25
solved the first one you know they had an interest in in C he too could have had an interest but it doesn't
00:08:31
necessarily mean that he was an expert or trained in in ciphers zodiac screams Navy to me for whatever reason I think
00:08:40
it's I think it's partly the area some of the things that you touched on the astrology angle of it and you said wing
00:08:49
walker boots but I don't know about 1968 1969 I'm assuming so but the Navy has more planes than any other branch of the
00:08:58
military so so um it screams Navy if in fact he does that have that type of background the while we're on the topic
00:09:07
of communications I wanted to check in with you Mike about the Melvin belly Communications there were some phone
00:09:15
calls and a um at least one letter or postcard sent to Melvin belly he was an attorney in the area at the time and and
00:09:25
pretty famous one at that what are your feelings I know that one of the communications received by Bell
00:09:32
contained an additional piece of Paul Stein's bloody shirt so we know that at least that one is authentic but we also
00:09:41
have the situation of bell sitting on a morning talk show talking to somebody on
00:09:47
the phone who calls himself Sam claiming to be responsible or at least calling in
00:09:54
under the guys that he is the Zodiac and that seems to like have been not the case that the caller calling himself Sam
00:10:03
was not the Zodiac I don't know if was that person identified I know that that phone call on the talk show was traced
00:10:10
to a uh uh I believe a mental institution yeah he was he was identified his name was Eric wheel and
00:10:16
he was in that in that mental institution but the the way this started was someone called into uh the Jim
00:10:25
Dunbar show which was a local San Francisco TV show and claimed they were the Zodiac and
00:10:32
they wanted to speak to attorney fle Bailey who was pretty well known at the time and he wasn't available so they
00:10:40
said would you settle for Melvin belli and and they agreed to that so essentially the TV show said hey keep
00:10:49
the airwaves open someone claiming to be the zodiac is calling in and they're going to be speaking with Melvin belly
00:10:56
on the show well loone the whole the Call Comes Back in once they're they're rolling and it's this guy Eric wheel
00:11:05
from this mental institution he turns out not to be the Zodiac but it seems like that
00:11:12
conversation is where the interest in Melvin Bell starts for zodiac um in fact the Sal 340 Cipher basically said it
00:11:21
wasn't me that called into the TV show so that you know 50 years to find out something we already knew but it just
00:11:29
interesting that's where he decided to start communicating with with Melvin Bell and sort of uh Melvin belli was
00:11:37
open to communicating back yeah I always found the caller Sam to you know to sound uh weak or vulnerable and I don't
00:11:47
think the Zodiac would come off like that just like in the one call when he when he calls police and he ends with or
00:11:54
uh something to the effect of like okay bye now you know and it's it's very like
00:12:00
yeah Joker like or like the Riddler yeah and they had at the time there were three people known to have heard
00:12:09
Zodiac's voice for sure and that was the um the person that took the phone call the dispatcher in valo ancy Slover there
00:12:18
was also the uh sheriff's deputy in Napa that that took the call there and then you had finally uh Survivor Brian harell
00:12:29
from Lake beresa uh and they all sat together and listened for who knows how long just over and over to that audio of
00:12:37
the morning show and they all confirmed that it was not the voice they heard it wasn't Zodiac's voice on December 18th
00:12:46
1969 supposedly Zodiac's on the phone with Melvin belly's housekeeper or somebody working at Melvin's
00:12:55
home and they have a nice I guess casual conversation between the two and later she tells Melvin that the caller
00:13:05
claiming to be the Zodiac said that today's my birthday again we we've talked about we know on several
00:13:12
occasions zodiac has been a liar and we've also said maybe he's really putting in strong attempts at
00:13:19
misdirection towards the the investigation itself but I just found that fascinating that uh we have this
00:13:26
conversation and my not say December 18th 1969 he says today's my birthday any thoughts on that Mike yeah some of
00:13:35
that I don't know some of that conversation is not 100% verified um I I think part of it comes from Robert Grey
00:13:44
Smith's claims in his book that that's how the conversation went and that's the date that book was pretty much an
00:13:52
attempt steering the the conversation towards his favorite suspect who happened to have that that birthday
00:14:00
December 18th so but I don't know that that's actually confirmed to be accurate as far as what was said and and uh
00:14:08
verified you're exactly right it's page 324 in zodiac un Mass where he says that
00:14:15
that conversation took place saying that today's my birthday or today was his birthday and of course we know anybody
00:14:23
that's followed zodiac long enough that Arthur Lee Allen was born December 18th 1933 one thing that I found fascinating
00:14:34
and again I know we know that one one communication to Bell is authentic based off of the Paul Stein bloody shirt but I
00:14:45
I found this to be a a bizarre coincidence that that is also the the birthday of Ed ker and on that day we
00:14:55
know that Ed keer is not the Zodiac because he he was locked up until his 21st birthday but uh I found it
00:15:03
fascinating that on that day is the day that he another Infamous notorious serial killer
00:15:11
is being released on that same day back into the public to kill again and here we have a conversation that may have
00:15:18
happened between zodiac and somebody saying today's my birthday that's pretty interesting I didn't even know that was
00:15:23
at keer birthday let's talk about some of the other possible victims because somebody that's always been linked and
00:15:30
really tied to the Zodiac case as a possible you know extra victim outside of the confirmed five but maybe even
00:15:39
possibly the first victim would be Sherry Joe Bates who was killed October 30th 1966 now from my understanding Mike and
00:15:49
correct me if I'm wrong the way that we kind of start linking this is that it sounds like somebody maybe in Riverside
00:15:56
or somebody that had knowledge of Jerry Joe bates's case and and even the communications that followed her murder
00:16:04
that they Tred to suggest to the local police the Riverside Police that that this is a possible zodiac connection and
00:16:12
when they Shrugged him off he then gets Paul Avery and notifi notifies uh Paul Avery that hey there's zodiac may have
00:16:22
struck first back in October of 1966 in Riverside to me Sherry uh sher's case is
00:16:30
probably the most important piece of the zodiac puzzle because I think if if we can verify with certainty that zodiac
00:16:38
was there in Riverside during that time we would we would definitely shrink down
00:16:44
the the possible suspects and and Persons of Interest you know just to sort of briefly walk through it I'm sure
00:16:52
you guys are are really detailing this too he she was killed outside the the Library the library she attended she had
00:17:01
gone there for some books and she went in and her car was disabled while she was inside interestingly enough and a
00:17:08
lot of people aren't aware of this but you know she was stabbed she was slashed um after Lake beresa um the Riverside
00:17:17
Police reached out to Napa sheriff's department and said hey we had a stabbing uh attack here
00:17:26
1966 and they sort of wanteded to compare notes and I I don't really know why because it wasn't a very similar
00:17:33
case I didn't think in my opinion but they they did reach out a lot of people don't know that but what's interesting
00:17:40
is 30 days after Sher was murdered you know you've got this tight confession letter that's mailed to Riverside Police
00:17:48
um from someone claiming to be her killer and what's interesting is you know the memos from the Riverside Police
00:17:57
Department as well as the FB FBI reports dictate uh quote the letter writer had details only the killer would know so
00:18:05
they're they're thinking whoever sent this confession letter early on is is definitely sher's killer uh and that the
00:18:12
details of disabling her car were not published in the paper that her coil wire had been pulled so when she tried
00:18:18
to start her car it wasn't um it wouldn't start but it it's it's not true within two days local papers published
00:18:26
that her her middle wire had been pulled and the conf the confession letter uh author uh wrote that he pulled the
00:18:35
middle wire so the very least we know that the letter writer in the baates case whether it's
00:18:40
zodiac uh killed her or not the letter writer um could have learned these details from the newspaper to include in
00:18:49
the the confession letter and then after that of course there's more letters and
00:18:53
more correspondence down there and and that's sort of how the Cherry Joe bait's connection gets rolling yeah because
00:19:01
looking at that case it looks like not only did the letter writer send something to Riverside Police
00:19:08
Headquarters but also the the Press Enterprise uh which would be an office there and I and I believe that something
00:19:16
was sent to her father as well and I find that to be interesting I don't know if all three were mailed at the same
00:19:24
time but if so that kind of well that that really Echo shows what took place in July 31st of 1969 when we know that
00:19:34
the Zodiac was in San Francisco because he dropped three envelopes into a mailbox and mailed them to the the SF
00:19:44
examiner the chronicle and the Vallejo times yeah absolutely and you know that confession letter came on the one Monon
00:19:51
anniversary the three letters you just mentioned came on the six-month anniversary and and you know as you
00:19:57
mentioned one went to the police one went to the newspaper one went to sher's Dad which is sort of out of the play you
00:20:05
know zodiac Playbook and these letters you can find them online for anyone that's listening that wants to to find
00:20:11
them there's there's they hand scw they're very messy someone obviously went through trouble trying to disguise
00:20:17
their their writing but there's a little Z like symbol at the bottom it's hard to
00:20:22
argue that it's anything else but you know it looks like a z so you've got that as well but what happened is you
00:20:30
know when the Zodiac murderers started making headlines in Southern California there's a man named Phil sins and he
00:20:39
started saying now this zodiac letters these sound just like the Sher Joe Bates murder uh letters here um early on and
00:20:47
he kept going to the rofs side police saying you need to look into the Zodiac connection maybe zodiac struck here
00:20:54
first in October and killed Sherry but they kept rebuffing him but eventually they again they did send out that memo
00:21:02
to Napa in 1969 and I I think it was probably with a little bit of pressure from Mr sins
00:21:09
continually badgering them to check this link out and when that failed Paul ay got his Halloween card from zodiac in
00:21:16
October 1970 and that made headlines so Phil sins decided to go to him and tell him
00:21:23
to investigate the bait's connection and that's how that connection offici started so in the Bates case you have
00:21:31
the letters and one of them um says something like Bates had to die there will be more and then again signed with
00:21:39
a what most people would consider to be a z there are a few that will argue maybe it's a it's the number two rather
00:21:46
than the letter Z I think it I think it strongly much more strongly looks like the letter Z one thing I found
00:21:53
fascinating in that case and a bit weird too and the captain earlier referen the the Genesis you know where
00:22:01
did the the name Zodiac come from not for us as the public but for the killer himself what where does he pull this
00:22:08
name from and if we know one thing about the zodiac is he enjoys taking credit so
00:22:16
to speak for his crimes he he wants police in the public to know of the crimes he did so much so that he has
00:22:24
even tried to make us believe that he's admitted some other murders uh even after the Paul Stein murder but one
00:22:33
thing I always found and and this is is quite trite compared to the the ciphers the sophisticated ciphers he sent later
00:22:43
but with the in the Bates case there was an inscription that was left at the Riverside College library and that was
00:22:54
the same library that she that Bates attended the night that she was killed they found this later I believe it was
00:23:02
discovered the following year in 1967 where somebody left like a a poem that they had uh inscribed on this desktop
00:23:12
and at the end they signed it RH and again this is is very simplistic compared to the ciphers later but if
00:23:21
they did start connecting this RH might be a little too close to home for our killer and then later when he reaches
00:23:29
out he signs it Z well I mean r is the 18th letter H is the eighth letter together that's the that's 26 Z is the
00:23:38
26th letter is is Rh to the Z to the Zodiac the Genesis of this name yeah that that's definitely an interesting
00:23:47
Theory I hadn't heard that one of R r& equaling 26 I know they they poured through lots of people with those
00:23:56
initials obviously looking for any rhes that that could have written that poem and and that poem I should point out was
00:24:05
uh found by Sherwood moral who was the state's top handwriting expert that was found to match the other baits letters
00:24:13
and envelopes and the Zodiac letters and envelopes so um if you follow that link
00:24:18
and and you believe that the same author authored all of that stuff than we've got zodiac in that library and and
00:24:25
that's an important clue you know obviously because you've got again suspects and Persons of Interest that
00:24:32
were there at that time that would definitely shrink the pool um and and there's some some key things you can see
00:24:40
in some of those letters in in in the Bates case U you know I'm not a documents examiner I'm not a handwriting
00:24:47
expert he you know Sherwood moral concluded that they were the same author but what I see is clues in the
00:24:57
writing itself as far as words and terms uh I'll give you an example in the confession letter in
00:25:08
1966 the author wrote She squirmed and shook as I choked her her lips twitched the author in that letter misspelled
00:25:16
twitched is T wi c h e d in a July 1970 zodiac letter uh zodiac wrote watch them
00:25:26
scream and twitch and squirm zodiac also misspelled twitch the same incorrect way so you've got someone
00:25:34
using the words twitch and squirm uh in the same sentence four years apart it's just you take that plus the
00:25:45
the writing expert already saying the writing is the same I think it's hard to ignore that and just one more word
00:25:53
choice or phrase Choice confession letter included a line I plunged the knife into into her and zodiac used that
00:26:00
similar line in 1974 he plunged himself into the bowy grave so I think you know I think he's sub subconsciously drawing
00:26:10
on some words and phrases in his natural writing that came through and happened to link not just the handwriting is a
00:26:19
match but his choice of words and phrases it makes it hard to think that there that that could be anyone else but
00:26:26
zodiac so for me I really focus in on on Riverside 1966 to 1967 and I bet my house that whoever uh zodiac was he
00:26:37
lived in Riverside in' 66 to 67 but to be clear does not necessarily have to be the murderer of Sherry Joe Bates yeah
00:26:46
that's Absol absolutely correct you know whether I'm sort of on the fence whe whether he killed her or not and and we
00:26:52
don't know what's going on behind the scenes in in the investigation I I know there's DNA there was uh some cigarette
00:27:00
butts found uh there was hair with some tissue on it found in Cherry's and and and Riverside for for 50 years has had a
00:27:10
favorite suspect that they refus to let go of despite the DNA evidence ruling him out um but they've they've ignored
00:27:18
any possible zodiac connection to her case cuz they felt it they felt it was a it sidetracked the investigation and
00:27:26
they sort of refused to to accept that there could be some connection even if it's just the writing and that he didn't
00:27:32
actually kill [Music] her this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays
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[Music] that and I thought that the Riverside Police they did a hell of a job investigating the baates murder it's not
00:29:50
like they you know ran out of ideas a day or two later they were reconstructing the crime they were
00:29:56
asking for people that were there that night to come and and position themselves and their vehicles where they
00:30:03
were during the time in question the other bizarre thing about her murder is we know the library where she was she
00:30:10
was that night closed at 900 p.m that would be their traditional hours and it's it's assumed or at least we have
00:30:18
some witnesses to say that she would have left at closing time but it's believed that that there were
00:30:24
earwitnesses to her attack and those people place the attack as going down in the 10:00 hour early on in the
00:30:33
10:00 hour so it's you know how long between her discovering her vehicle is inoperable to the Zodiac or or whoever
00:30:42
killed her luring her away from the vehicle and then attacking her in that uh that alley if you will yeah it's a
00:30:50
very good point because I personally think an 18-year-old girl isn't going to walk down an alley and hang out talk
00:30:57
talk to them for an hour at a time you know worth of time if she didn't have some kind of comfort maybe he's a
00:31:03
similar age maybe she knew him even if not you know well maybe she knew him uh casually I I think if that's the case
00:31:12
and she spent a good amount of time with them down in that dark alley it's safe to say it's not some creepy looking
00:31:19
Stranger in in my opinion but what's interesting about that scream and the time it was heard that weekend happened
00:31:26
to be daylight saving time and you set the clocks back I I I don't know this and and I've never been able to find any
00:31:33
documentation of this I wonder if somehow the person hadn't set their clock back from
00:31:40
the night before and it was really 9:00 and when they looked at their clock it was 10:00 on their clock and and that it
00:31:49
really the screen came at around 9:00 so I think that's open uh for for debate there and with that case as you said
00:31:57
said as far as evidence goes in finding the the killer of Sherry Joe Bates she put up a hell of a fight she clawed the
00:32:05
[ __ ] out of the her attacker and it you know we have the attacker's skin and such under her fingernails and and maybe
00:32:14
even some of his hair as well I'm hoping and praying that that was preserved in a
00:32:20
manner that we could still use it today or very soon to find uh Sher o bites murder yeah there's no doubt she she put
00:32:29
up a fight and she actually RI wrist watch off of her attacker too it was a men's size seven if I remember correctly
00:32:38
and the watch itself was purchased at a military base possibly in England if I recall correctly so again we get back to
00:32:45
the possibility is zodiac military in in some fashion you say England and I find
00:32:52
that to be very interesting because on the Melvin Belly Christmas communication from zodiac he says I want to wish you a
00:33:01
happy Christmas which I associate that with with English people where I I feel like Americans go to to Merry Christmas
00:33:09
are we dealing with a with a guy from overseas or or uh or what well he could have just been stationed overseas to
00:33:19
your point zodiac used the word shall I don't know how many times I shall do this I shall do that
00:33:27
I don't know in my lifetime other than talking about this case that I ever use that word it's just not something that
00:33:33
we use here in the United States but the Zodiac frequently used that word in his
00:33:38
his writings um so as did the the Riverside writer assuming they're one and the same in the confession letter
00:33:46
that word was used as well so it's interesting to you know is there some kind of connection to London uh or
00:33:54
England I should say the UK or is it just maybe they've learned it because they spent time there or maybe in some
00:34:03
of their movies or books going back to the the fantasy uh and the theatrical stuff are they using that word because
00:34:13
they've heard it and and some of the art stuff that they've they've taken in uh so that's an interesting thing that that
00:34:19
people have pondered over the last you know five decades Mike do you have like a top three suspects or what what does
00:34:27
your suspect pool look like um you know there's I could thr some names real quick that are the most common ones and
00:34:36
people can find a million things on them but Rick Marshall he he was an older guy
00:34:42
that ran a projection uh machine in a theater in San Francisco he was a little bit Shady had uh a couple IDs he used
00:34:51
Larry Kane is a name that gets thrown out there left and right it's not not in my my book I don't think he's a good
00:34:58
suspect Richard gayowski is someone whose name is out there and these are names that are presented for a variety
00:35:04
of different reasons obviously the top one that's out there is Arthur Lee Allen he's been looked at by everyone Under
00:35:12
the Sun you know when search warrants were executed on his home they didn't find any of the
00:35:19
weapons his handwriting didn't match his fingerprints didn't match the um print on Stein's cab one of the zodiac letters
00:35:28
had a palom print on it his pom print didn't match that so in my opinion he's rolled out Every Which Way but you know
00:35:36
from an interesting standpoint there was a guy in Robert graay Smith's book actually who called himself zodiac and
00:35:44
he lived in San Bernardino in 1964 to 1965 I I had to check that out I I knew his name I I found out his name and I
00:35:54
said I've got to call this guy and actually see if he really called himself zodiac because my thinking is you know
00:36:00
he's right down there in San Bernardino which is next to Riverside he's calling himself zodiac in 1964 to 1965 you know
00:36:09
this guy's either going to tell me to screw off or he's going to you know fill me in and sure enough this guy I talked
00:36:15
to him and I talked to him for hours he admitted he called himself zodiac in' 64
00:36:20
65 he was picked on he he by most accounts he'd be an odd person someone that probably fit the profile he lived
00:36:27
with his parents he told me he never had a date as he's telling me all this I'm likeing wow this guy really he checks a
00:36:36
lot of boxes but the thing was he was never up in the San Francisco Bay area and you know just after talking to him I
00:36:43
knew that he was harmless but had he lived in the San Francisco Bay he probably would have been on a lot of
00:36:49
raadar because he checked so many boxes but I always wondered if could one of his friends or one of the schoolmates
00:36:57
used that name zodiac and stole that moniker from him a little bit of a s side note he was interested in Melvin
00:37:05
belli as well and he attended a little Junior law College uh down in that area and Melvin Bell came in and it's it's in
00:37:15
the the graysmith book he tells the story and there's undercover police there and they actually confronted this
00:37:23
kid and said Is it true that you used to call yourself zodiac and um you know he's [ __ ] his pants
00:37:30
basically you know squirming around he's like no and they check this guy out police are aware of him he wasn't zodiac
00:37:36
but just that interesting tidbit was someone that interested me uh because someone I think could have stolen his
00:37:44
persona but the the best suspect I found personally um is a guy named Ross Sullivan because he can be placed he's
00:37:54
the only person ever named publicly that we know with 100% certainty was in the Riverside Library because he worked
00:38:02
there as a volunteer and he was a he was a student there yeah so he would be a great zodiac suspect but also primarily
00:38:10
Sher Joe Bates murder suspect yeah um he obviously he's there he you know he has
00:38:18
the location we can put him there and and his name was thrown out on an old Google form years ago I'm going back
00:38:27
like 20 years ago when the internet first started and uh you know I seen this name and I I basically had some of
00:38:33
the police reports and I Bas I went down every name that I could find and ran and
00:38:38
threw and checked and cross reference to see who was in what area and how they were rolled out and then I came across
00:38:46
this Ross suvan guy and I said I've got to find more on this guy because there was really nothing about him and then
00:38:53
the first thing I found was a sketch that he a picture from a yearbook of him and I I
00:38:59
couldn't believe my eyes it's he's like a dead ringer for the the Zodiac sketch so the fact he was in the Riverside
00:39:06
Library really caught my attention and the Librarians in the library wrote this like three-page letter of why they
00:39:15
suspected him of of killing Sherry Joe Bates and how weird he was and how creepy he was he liked to write poetry
00:39:22
so he really got got me going as far as interest the suspect well and that also could be one of the reasons why the
00:39:30
Zodiac became a lovers lane killer because if that was his first if that was his first victim that would have
00:39:41
been all the mistakes that he would have made during the attack he he would have
00:39:46
learned that you can't uh commit a crime like that if if you want to not get caught yeah definitely and and and when
00:39:54
we researched Sullivan a little bit more we found out he had been in and out of mental health institutes institutions um
00:40:04
his brother married Sher Joe bat's best friend so we start looking at these little things these little connections
00:40:12
we already have the Librarians suspecting him he transferred to Santa Cruz University in
00:40:20
1967 right after the last baates letter was mailed in Riverside so all the stuff
00:40:26
as far as this timeline adds up and then we've got him matching that criteria meeting that criteria and we
00:40:34
were able to find out through additional research uh that he had checked out books on cryptography at the library he
00:40:43
had some training with that so he checked a lot of boxes and and one thing that's interesting as well is that in
00:40:51
1977 he died and his on his death certificate it's listed how long have you lived in Santa Cruz and it said 3
00:41:01
years that goes back to 1974 when the Zodiac letters were last received so and then we can place him in
00:41:13
Santa Cruz in 1968 early 68 and we can place him in Santa Cruz in 1977 and then 3 years prior to
00:41:23
1974 the the time frame where he gets lost and we don't have any idea where he was and any confirmed addresses it
00:41:32
happens to coincide with the Zodiac cries well and with Arthur Lee Allen I believe he died in '92 so that's a long
00:41:41
period you say the last known letters were in 74 that's a long time for the Zodiac to
00:41:50
be if it's Arthur Lee Allen to be alive and not making any contact at all at all
00:41:57
i' make more sense that okay well there's this three-year Gap and then the guy passed away yeah and some people say
00:42:03
that the reason why the letter stopped in 1974 is because zodiac went to jail or he died or he moved or maybe he just
00:42:12
outgrew whatever is driving him to write these letters um we really don't know but we do know that the last confirmed
00:42:19
zodiac letter was received in in 1974 what I find interesting about the Zodiac in comparison to lot of other
00:42:26
serial killers in a way that he seems to differ from them is that a lot of times
00:42:33
we have serial killers that they they spiral out of control or they get lazy or overconfident that they'll never get
00:42:40
caught and here we have the opposite with the Zodiac where it seems to to be the case where he was so worried about
00:42:50
getting caught that he didn't have to be impulsive about his kills and did not have to continue to kill the the need
00:42:58
for him to stay a free man and not get caught took you know took over the the whatever was driving him to kill where
00:43:07
with these other serial killers the the the addiction to murder is their their un you know their their downfall and
00:43:16
their undoing yeah and I don't know that that zodiac was a master criminal I think he
00:43:22
was sloppy at times I think he um was took risks um and you know just striking and leaving multiple Witnesses
00:43:34
alive um writing a message on a door when someone could drive by as he's you know parked their doing
00:43:42
this message on Brian Hart's door being seen and witnessed by kids from across the street after he shot Paul Stein he
00:43:50
he definitely slipped up and made some mistakes I mean he if you believe Don Falk passed him while was on patrol um
00:43:58
that story uh after Stein was shot then he could have easily been apprehended but you know an incorrect description of
00:44:06
the suspect uh went out they were looking for a black Mound here they drive by this stocky guy with glasses
00:44:12
and a crew cut and they're looking for a black male and you know a minute later it's corrected they spin around to go
00:44:18
back and and find him and he's gone um so you know it doesn't seem like he's a master criminal I think he could have
00:44:25
been C and and luck was on the side do you think the incident involving Kathleen Jones is in fact a
00:44:33
zodiac incident uh she changed her story um multiple times it's it's interesting
00:44:40
that's what I found as well it's I mean it's portrayed one way of course in the movie and the story's told different
00:44:47
ways throughout the the decades but uh just to fill everybody in we're talking about the the woman that says that she
00:44:54
was tricked into to Zodiac's car with her and her baby and uh she becomes terrified of the man who's supposed to
00:45:02
be driving her to the service station yeah and I mean we have as in the Sher Jo Bates case we have a disabling of the
00:45:09
car so it has that going for we also have her driving north from San Bernardino up towards the bay area which
00:45:17
is right next to Riverside the person that attacked her she claims drove up from behind her so they were also coming
00:45:23
from that way so if there's some kind of Riverside to Bay area connection that sort of works in the favor but I I think
00:45:31
what we have to remember is again there's a lot of lot of bad guys down there doing a lot of bad stuff um during
00:45:36
that time and the only reason this was even linked to zodiac is because when she got to the police station she saw
00:45:43
zodiac sketch the composite on the wall that had been passed around every uh agency in California she said oh my God
00:45:50
I think that's the guy that kidnapped me well I hate to keep on bringing up Arthur Lee but there's been so many
00:45:55
documentaries about the Zodiac or just about Arthur Lee but wasn't he a pedo yeah he had been busted for uh messing
00:46:04
around with with some kids in one in uh I think one of the schools uh possibly and one of his friends in in fact the
00:46:14
the person that first brought him to the attention of the police and and came up
00:46:18
with a story of how Allan supposedly said I'm going to kill people and I'm going to call myself the Zodiac before
00:46:25
the Zodiac crimes it it's been alleged that that person's daughter was molested by by Allen so that would certainly give
00:46:36
them a reason to want to see him uh have some trouble with the police that could
00:46:41
be a motive for that person to go forward and say Hey Arthur Le Allen told me this story because he's messed with
00:46:47
his daughter and in regards to Allen what about the uh the speeding ticket that he gets up near Lake beresa on the
00:46:55
day of the attack yeah that was one thing that placed him there also reports that he was fishing up there uh or scuba
00:47:03
diving he had gone to that area before so he he did travel to that area very popular spot for a lot of people in the
00:47:11
Bay Area a lot of Wildlife and a big lake a deep lake so he definitely had connections to being there and and as
00:47:22
far as other things that we talked about you know he lived at home with his mom he wore a a a watch a zodiac brand watch
00:47:31
with the Crosshair logo on it after a while he knew he was being investigated for the Zodiac crimes and I personally
00:47:39
wonder if he got some kind of pleasure out of being sort of chased even though he knew he
00:47:47
didn't commit the crimes because what a way to mess with the police knowing that
00:47:52
they can't they can't convict you because you haven't killed any anyone but you know if you want to mess with
00:47:57
the police what a better way to do it yeah I believe he was identified by one of the survivors my problem with him is
00:48:05
he doesn't pass the eyeball test for me that's one of the the most troubling things in this case I mean if you look
00:48:12
at across the board the the views you start with Mike maou at Blue Rock Springs obviously he's got a light being
00:48:23
shining in his eyes well he's being shot at he only saw like a a peripheral or side view he gave the best description
00:48:30
he could but you we don't know how accurate that is and then you go to Lake berasa he's wearing a hood the entire
00:48:36
time although interestingly enough um one of the EMTs tending to uh Cecilia said said in the police report
00:48:47
that Cecilia told told her that before he as he put the hood on before he attacked them she saw him and he was
00:48:54
wearing glasses underneath the hood so that's one item in there that he appeared to have glasses on underneath
00:49:01
the hood and then of course there were clip on glasses on top of the hood and then to confuse things there was another
00:49:08
person seen at Lake beresta that day that police were never able to identify it was a stocky younger looking guy that
00:49:16
was described by some girls that were sunbathing as watching them and he was wearing the same general clothing that
00:49:24
zodiac was wearing although he looked um you know again he had darker hair no glasses um he didn't
00:49:32
look like the description of zodiac and then you finally get to the the sketch of the Stein killer zodiac and he looks
00:49:42
nothing like any of the earlier reports would have you look at so it's hard to say which one is probably the best but
00:49:50
I'd have to go with the best description is the one where they saw him from across the the street after the Stein
00:49:56
murder it's never been clearly stated how that sketch came to be if it was a combination of the the kids that uh saw
00:50:04
the the crime unfolding or if it was had something to do with officer Falk uh you
00:50:11
know describing what he had seen um but again you have the two amended versions of of that zodiac sketch falling Stein's
00:50:19
killing and and they look nothing like the earlier descriptions of zodiac how optimistic
00:50:26
are you that we solve the Zodiac case how optimistic are you that we solve the Sherry Joe Bates case if in fact the two
00:50:34
are not connected if you had asked me about either case a year ago two years ago I wouldn't have been
00:50:40
optimistic based on some developments and things that are going on behind the scenes I feel more confident now than
00:50:48
ever that both cases maybe in uh in the near future could be solved whether they're independent of each other or
00:50:57
whether they're you know they're solved together um you know is it remains to be seen because again I
00:51:06
hate to speak ill of the police but uh as good a job as they did early on in in sher's case holding that reenactment
00:51:14
trying to line up things they really put blinders on for the last five decades and and zoned in on this one guy despite
00:51:21
DNA ruling him out and I just feel they they dropped the ball in her case especially and only recently maybe
00:51:30
because of pressure and and seeing success with so many old cases maybe they're going to go down that genealogy
00:51:37
Road and and try that and we still don't know police have have always discounted
00:51:43
in Riverside that zodiac was even involved so we don't know if there's any prints or DNA or anything somehow that
00:51:50
matches zodiac we don't know if if these cases are being worked together or independent of each other was there
00:51:57
anything off the top of your head that you think were missing or were leaving out I I was going to say there are some
00:52:03
interesting things about Lake Herman Road in particular that that we could discuss real quick definitely the night
00:52:10
of uh December 20th for being a secluded Lovers Lane area there were a lot of witnesses that night a lot of people
00:52:18
drove by and saw you know Dave and Betty their the spot before the the murders happened
00:52:28
they constructed a good timeline they were able to identify all these Witnesses build a timeline check their T
00:52:36
their clocks even to see if they were accurate and and and and jelled with each other and and essentially what you
00:52:42
have is you have a witness named James Owen passing the crime scene at 11:14 on his way to work at humble oil in in the
00:52:51
grce Smith book he actually misread the report and said that Owen was on his way
00:52:56
home from from Humble oil but it was the reverse he was heading to Humble oil and
00:53:02
his light shined in that scene and he saw David Faraday's car and he saw a car next to it he didn't see any people in
00:53:12
or around the cars and he went to work and then 6 minutes later we have a woman named Stella Boris who is traveling she
00:53:21
just left her house she's traveling from boo to bisha so the turnout where the shootings occurred her light shineing
00:53:30
and she immediately sees two bodies there so we have a six-minute window of when this happened and the last witness
00:53:38
James Owen he is the one that sees a car next to next to David Faraday and based
00:53:46
on that you know he's the last known person to see the scene before the bodies were found do you call into
00:53:53
question his account or just just pinpointing down to almost the minute of the attack itself oh I I I actually had
00:54:01
some trouble with Owen statements um the next morning when he got off his shift he's heading back home he drives by the
00:54:09
crime scene he sees their still out there working the scene there chalk outlines of the the bodies on the ground
00:54:16
and he pulls over and tells the police hey I I drove by last night on my way here and I saw this Rambler car here and
00:54:26
this car next to it I couldn't really make anything out I didn't see any people around in or out of the cars he
00:54:33
says the cars were about 10 ft apart and while he's there just N9 hours after the
00:54:38
shooting he never mentions hearing any gunshots well he he was questioned three days later on December 24th and his
00:54:46
story changed um he told police that the cars were not 10 feet apart but this time he says they're three to four feet
00:54:53
apart and then you know perhaps more importantly now he mentions that he thinks he heard a gunshot about a
00:55:02
quarter mile down the road after he passed the scene and and to me I'm like wouldn't you remember wouldn't that be
00:55:08
the thing that stuck up the most in your memory nine hours after the attack rather than three days later um so I've
00:55:16
had some some issues with his statements again I don't want to be accusatory of him but early on I did have some some
00:55:23
suspicion about some of the things that he mentioned not being uh not being accurate well we often see with
00:55:31
Witnesses turn suspects that sometimes they put them Place themselves at the scene of the crime and for unknown
00:55:38
reasons some sometimes because they think someone may have seen them there or their vehicle in the area for
00:55:44
whatever reason and and that's certainly an interesting lesser known portion of the zodiac case all right Mike Morford
00:55:53
we truly appreciate you joining us here in the garage today and offering all of your expertise and everything that is
00:56:02
the Zodiac Killer is there anything any projects you're working on anything you want to promote while you're here where
00:56:09
can the listeners find you well I'm on Twitter uh my handle is at True Crime guy also you know podcast wise you
00:56:17
mentioned them earlier criminology is is one a lot of people know me from I also
00:56:22
host the murder of my family and and you know we have a common friend Jess beton
00:56:27
Court I work with her on a couple different podcasts um you know scene of the crime uh which you guys have talked
00:56:34
Deli and mentioned the show I appreciate that we also do DNA ID together um in missing persons so I'm pretty active and
00:56:41
pretty all over the place and as timing would have it since we're talking zodiac
00:56:47
uh I am launching a brand new podcast called zodiac speaking and that releases March 13th and that's all about about
00:56:55
the Zodiac perfect well thank you again Mike it's been a pleasure good luck on the all of the projects you continue to
00:57:02
work on but the the new zodiac podcast as well yeah thank you it was good talking with you guys and anytime I'm
00:57:07
I'm happy to talk shop with [Music] you some fascinating stuff about the Zodiac can't wait to check out Mike's
00:57:28
new podcast when it comes out we'll make sure that we'll post it on social media
00:57:33
so make sure you're following us at True Crime Garage on Facebook on Twitter and
00:57:39
on Instagram and join us back here next week until then be good be kind and don't
00:57:53
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