00:00:00
introducing the Jeffrey Epstein I knew a new podcast from CNN hosted by Vicki Ward the 7 episode series takes you
00:00:08
behind the scenes to hear a one-of-a-kind account of Epstein an individual who's more myth than man
00:00:14
Vicki Ward has been reporting on Jeffrey Epstein for almost two decades and takes
00:00:19
listeners beyond the headlines to explore who Jeffrey Epstein really was where he got his money and the
00:00:25
circumstances surrounding his death subscribe to the podcast the Jeffrey Epstein I new wherever you get your
00:00:33
podcast if you haven't listened to unladylike yet you should check it out unladylike is a podcast about gender
00:00:40
rules and the people who break them you know those unwritten but totally [ __ ] expectations of how we should
00:00:47
live our lives every episode is like a how-to guide steeped in history research and real women's stories unladylike has
00:00:55
covered everything from where to buy vibrators to diet culture and selling weed to the Equal Rights Amendment find
00:01:03
these episodes and many more by searching for unladylike now wherever you get your podcast
00:01:14
[Music] [Applause] welcome to true crab garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:01:52
listening I'm your host Nick and I've always been a fan of the Browns and always been a fan of the captain I don't
00:01:58
know what that means but you do the math here's the captain I think it means it's
00:02:02
good to be seen and it's good to see you FYI up steamed didn't kill himself thanks for listening thanks for telling
00:02:10
a friend this week we are very happy to be drinking Texas red this is an American Texas amber lager Texas red is
00:02:23
a very balanced beer with notes of caramel plenty of malt character and just the right amount of hops garage
00:02:30
grade three and a half bottle caps out of five this week our fridge is full thank you to all of our good garage
00:02:36
friends we'd like to give a Cheers to David and Dunn Loring Virginia and a big shout out to Mary in Morgantown West
00:02:42
Virginia next up we have our friend Dustin and Heartland Wisconsin old cheese head and a big we like your jib
00:02:50
to Julie in Indianapolis Indiana next up a big shout out to Camilla in Costa Rica
00:02:56
and last but not least of course we have Wednesday up in beautiful Vancouver British Columbia everybody that we just
00:03:04
mentioned went to our website true crime garage calm and they donated to this week's beer fund and for that we thank
00:03:11
all of them and that's enough of the biz yes all right everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some
00:03:17
true crime [Music] December 23rd 1991 in blue-collar Corsicana Texas this is just about 45
00:04:05
miles south of Dallas diane barbie was watching the prices right it was about 10:15 a.m. when her 11 year old daughter
00:04:15
Buffy ran in from outside and said mom the neighbor's house is on fire Diane ran out onto West 11th Street and
00:04:24
saw that the house just two houses down from hers was in flames the man who lived there Todd Willingham
00:04:34
was standing shirtless and barefoot on the porch his upper body covered in soot and his hair burned he was screaming my
00:04:44
babies are burning up he yelled at Diane to call 911 Diane's phone was shut off so she had to
00:04:52
run down the block to a neighbor's home to make the call at 10:24 am Todd grabbed a stick
00:05:00
smashed it through the front window of the burning house only to have the flames shoot out he tried another window
00:05:08
with the same result this was witnessed by Buffy Barbie Todd ran into the yard and kneeled in the
00:05:15
grass according to another neighbor he cried out my babies periodically while falling
00:05:22
silent at other times one photo from the scene that day shows Todd sitting on the bumper of a fire
00:05:29
truck his head bowed down over his knees his body language shows despondency when
00:05:38
Diane returned to the scene Todd was standing by a chain-link fence Diane could feel the heat from the
00:05:46
burning house and soon five windows not previously smashed by Todd blew outward then she said Todd ran to his Cadillac
00:05:57
parked by the house and pushed it down the driveway away from the flames firemen arrived and Todd shouted at them
00:06:07
that his children were inside in their bedroom in the front of the house where the flames were shooting from a fireman
00:06:16
radioed for more backup and said step on it the home we are talking about is a one-story wood structure a small home
00:06:27
fireman started to spray water on the front porch and into the windows of the burning house one firefighter equipped
00:06:36
with an air tank and mask was able to enter through the front door and proceeded down the hallway to the
00:06:43
kitchen a refrigerator blocked the back door of the house and the kitchen was empty of people meanwhile out front
00:06:54
Todd was becoming more and more hysterical a police chaplain was trying to calm Todd who started telling him
00:07:02
what had happened when a firefighter emerged from the house with a two-year-old in his arms he sank to his
00:07:11
knees the little girl's arm flopped lifeless the firefighter gave the little girl amber CPR meanwhile Todd rushed
00:07:23
toward the still burning house he had to be restrained by police chaplain father
00:07:29
Monahan to prevent him from entering the burning home restrained to the point that father
00:07:35
Monahan and three other Corsicana police officers had to wrestle with top and handcuffed him father Monahan got a
00:07:44
black eye in the process another firefighter Barban smith told investigators that when he arrived at
00:07:53
the scene he too had to restrain Todd from going into the home he told police that Todd was yelling that his babies
00:08:01
were in the house and was acting real hysterical he restrained Todd from going on to the porch he said based on what I
00:08:10
saw on how the fire was burning it would have been crazy for anyone to try and go
00:08:16
into the house Todd was taken to the hospital he had burns on his shoulder face neck
00:08:25
hands and his hair was singed he was kept overnight amber meanwhile was pronounced DOA at the hospital and one
00:08:38
year old twins Carmen and Cameron were declared dead at the scene by a justice of the peace
00:08:47
the children's mother Stacy was tracked down and informed of the tragic deaths of her children in the loss of her home
00:08:55
as she shopped for Christmas gifts the Salvation Army this is true crime garage this is the case of Cameron Todd
00:09:05
Willingham [Music] after he was released from an overnight at the hospital Todd was brought in for questioning he
00:09:26
spoke with fire investigators Douglas Fogg Manuel Vasquez and police officer Jimmy Hensley Todd's story was this
00:09:35
Stacy his wife left that morning to pay the water and electric bills now the family was behind on several accounts
00:09:44
this including their mortgage and when Stacy went to the Salvation Army to buy presents for the kids after paying these
00:09:51
bills the family had very little money they didn't even own a stove they just made do with a hot plate and
00:09:59
microwave and a deep fryer around 9:00 a.m. Todd says that he heard the twins crying in their bedroom so he went in he
00:10:09
got them out of the crib gave them each a bottle put them on the floor two year-old amber stayed asleep in her bed
00:10:16
in the same room Todd put a baby gate up as there was no door to the kids room Todd went back to bed and fell asleep
00:10:26
later he says he was awakened by Amber's cries of daddy daddy she's screaming the house when he wakes
00:10:35
up is filled with smoke and he could barely see since he slept in the nude he said he felt around for his pants and
00:10:43
put them on while yelling at amber telling her to get out of the house the house had no phone so he could not call
00:10:53
for help by this point he's crouching low and he's feeling his way around so he can make his way down the hallway
00:11:00
back to the kids room the hallway was filled with black smoke and the air wreaked of burning materials
00:11:08
he could hear popping noises that he thought were wires and electrical sockets blowing when he got to the kids
00:11:16
room he had to stand up remember he placed the baby gate in the doorway he stood up to climb over the baby gate and
00:11:24
at this point his hair caught on fire he put out the flames with his hands and then he got down on the ground and he
00:11:31
started crawling around on the floor inside this room this room is now engulfed in flames at
00:11:37
this time he's feeling around for the girls but unfortunately all he found was a doll he couldn't feel amber in her bed
00:11:45
either at this point Todd later related that the fire was all around including the
00:11:51
top of the walls and on the ceiling but not on the floor this is why he was able
00:11:57
to crawl and then walk despite being barefoot the heat became unbearable and burning debris started to
00:12:05
fall on him so he staggered out the front door this is right nearby where he is at this point this is when Diane
00:12:15
Barbie arrived to find him on the porch he told investigators that he tried to get back inside more than once including
00:12:23
when he broke the windows with a stick but the house was engulfed in flames and the heat was overwhelming investigators
00:12:30
asked Todd if he had any idea how the fire started he says he wasn't sure but that it seems
00:12:38
that it started in the kids room since that's where the flames seemed to be coming from when he was staggering down
00:12:44
the hallway he said that he and Stacy had three space heaters inside the home and that one was in the kids room Todd
00:12:54
said amber got some weapons in the past for playing with this space heater this might make sense - that the fire started
00:13:02
with something electrical since he says he heard snapping and popping noises one
00:13:09
fire investigator though testified that he found this space heater in the girls room in the off position Todd said he
00:13:17
could not think of anyone who would want to hurt his family he said he and Stacy
00:13:22
had their problems but neither of them could live without their children well most of these space heaters have some
00:13:29
kind of safety mechanism if they tip over that they'd shut off but because of the time period you wonder if they even
00:13:38
had a feature like that he said of amber his two-year-old daughter who cried out
00:13:43
daddy daddy to tell you the honest to god truth he says I wish she hadn't woke me up the
00:13:53
Willingham's 50-year old home was severely damaged by this fire photographs showed the charred
00:14:00
burned-out remains of the walls and the floors in the front of the house yeah I'll post pictures of the house and any
00:14:08
of the reports that we talked about and all the characters involved and all the people involved in this case
00:14:15
I'll post pictures of that on Instagram at true-crime garage the melted artificial tree and singed teddy bear
00:14:24
still soaked from the fire hoses is visible in pictures of the scene as are the blackened kids beds bed in baby crib
00:14:34
the back part of the house where the master bedroom and kitchen are suffered mostly smoke and water damage the couple
00:14:42
found themselves not only in shock and grief over the loss of their toddlers but bereft of their home at Christmas
00:14:50
time with no possessions clothing or even money for funerals but rather than pity and compassion from the community
00:14:59
for grieving parents in the wake of a tragic accident instead the tide began to turn the tide was turning against
00:15:08
Todd Willingham now we said in the trailer Cameron Todd Willingham but anybody that knows this case knows that
00:15:16
this man goes by simply tot so we will for the sake of making it easier on ourselves
00:15:21
he's just Todd moving forward as is typical with fires arson investigators sought to determine the cause of the
00:15:31
fire Todd of course gave permission for authorities to go through the charred home he said quote I know we might not
00:15:40
ever know all the answers but I'd like to know why my babies were taken from me and quote
00:15:47
the assistant fire chief Douglas fog he was a Vietnam vet with four Purple Hearts he had been a firefighter for 20
00:15:56
years and he was a certified arson inspector Foggs Oh investigator for this case with state
00:16:04
Deputy Fire Marshal Manuel Vasquez he's considered one of Texas's leading arson investigators Vasquez had a background
00:16:13
in army intelligence and had investigated more than 1,200 fires in his career Fogg and Vasquez went over
00:16:21
the Willingham's 975 square foot house systematically and painstakingly they said they went in with no preconceived
00:16:31
notions of what happened Vasquez said quote the fire tells a story I am just the interpreter after
00:16:39
examining the perimeter of the home the inspectors observed that they could open
00:16:45
the back door and squeeze into the kitchen behind a refrigerator that was in front of this door the appliance had
00:16:53
been in that spot supposedly for some time the kitchen had smoke and heat damage but it was not burned the fire
00:17:02
started elsewhere the men followed the hallway from the kitchen past a laundry room and then the master bedroom to the
00:17:11
front of the house where a living room was on the left and the kids bedroom was on the right the hallway ended at the
00:17:18
front door leading out to the front porch now they noticed that the laundry room had what they consider to be weird
00:17:26
posters on the wall a poster what looked like the grim reaper and then other dark
00:17:33
themed pictures of skulls amber was found under the covers in the bed in the master bedroom this room too was
00:17:43
determined not to be where the fire started but it was a different story in the girls bedroom where the twins bodies
00:17:52
were found on the floor fog and Vasquez thought back to Todd telling them that he had crawled around
00:18:00
in the girls room and only found a doll but two of his children had been right there as they continued to move through
00:18:09
the home following the evidence they began to formulate some opinions based on serve Asians here are the things that
00:18:18
figured most heavily into their report the basis of the walls in the hallway and front rooms were charred indicating
00:18:26
that the fire burned low down which ordinarily fires burn upward irregular char patterns on the floor were shaped
00:18:35
like puddles similar to what would form when flammable liquids poured onto the floor burn in puddle like formations the
00:18:44
fire burned through the flooring carpet and tile and burned so hot under the kids beds that the mattress coils were
00:18:51
ash white they noted that the fire appeared to have burned low to the ground and again normally fires burn up
00:18:59
high glass pieces from the broken windows displayed a spider web pattern referred to as crazed glass fire
00:19:10
textbooks at the time attributed this pattern formation to a fire burning extremely fast and hot as would occur
00:19:18
with a liquid accelerant and then the glass splinters as a result a flashover took place in the front bedroom this
00:19:27
again is the kid's bedroom the investigators perceived what they believe to be a burn trail from the room
00:19:36
shared by the girls into the hallway and to the front door at the front door they
00:19:42
found that the threshold was burned on the front porch brown stains permeated the concrete floor as what might happen
00:19:51
with the use of an accelerant V patterns on the walls are traditionally considered indicative of extreme smoke
00:20:00
and heat radiating upward from a burning object the fire inspectors looked for V
00:20:07
patterns to decide what was burning hottest and quickest to determine the point of origin fog and vasquez detected
00:20:16
three of these V patterns in the home one in the kids bedroom one in the hallway and one at the front door
00:20:28
three distinctive origin points showed that the fire according to this report was set so what it seems like they're
00:20:36
observing is that somebody put an accelerant down on the floor in three different spots correct and that the
00:20:47
fire was burning very hot from the bottom up meaning the floor up and I think because Todd is visibly no burns
00:20:57
on his feet that they start thinking that this is evidence that he possibly started the fire himself yeah so to put
00:21:08
it in simplest form I think first of all his story his account of his movements through the house before he exited the
00:21:16
home don't seem to match up with what the post fire evidence is showing these inspectors right and then on top of that
00:21:26
I mean really at the most the the most logical thing here is if you have more than one point of origin for a fire
00:21:35
somebody set that fire right you know an accidental fire is going to start in one
00:21:41
location and then burn throughout I'm sure somebody will send me a nice email that tells me that I'm wrong that there
00:21:47
was a situation at one point in the history of our world that a fire was an accident and it started in three
00:21:53
different points I would argue that and I'm sure investigators would argue that would be an extremely extremely
00:22:00
extremely rare occurrence if you can find three points of origin you've likely found an arson and as you pointed
00:22:08
out too if there was an accelerant used it makes sense that it would be poured on the floor causing the fire to burn
00:22:17
from the floor up rather than wherever it actually started if it were an accident catching the
00:22:23
walls up high the ceiling and then burning in that manner right correct now I just want to be very clear so you're
00:22:30
stating for the record on this episode that you are not a fire expert I'm not a fire expert my only knowledge
00:22:40
of fire inspections comes from this case and a few other cases that we've already
00:22:44
discussed okay art but are you still the crispy kernel I am okay the fire investigators sent samples of the
00:22:54
burned-out home to the lab the lab determined that one of these samples did contain evidence of mineral spirits
00:23:03
something that is found in charcoal lighter fluid yeah this sample that tested positive for accelerant came from
00:23:12
the threshold of the front door this is interesting too because we talked about that poor trail or the fire trail that
00:23:21
the inspectors noted in their report the report pointed to 20 indicators of arson
00:23:28
and concluded that the fire with multiple visible points of origin was intentionally set again what they're
00:23:36
stating is that somebody would pour accelerant in these areas which all led to the front door which would lead to
00:23:44
that threshold where they found the lighter fluid correct directly from the report they are stating that someone
00:23:51
poured an accelerant in the girls room under their beds on the floor into the hallway and then out the front door and
00:23:59
then that person exited ahead of the flames the burning hallway and doorway prevented anyone else from escaping out
00:24:08
the front door or anyone coming in to help and keep in mind in the kitchen they surmise that the refrigerator had
00:24:18
been deliberately moved to block this back door right one of the two exit points so the back exit point you can't
00:24:27
get out because of the refrigerator the front exit point you can't get out of because of the flames if this was set up
00:24:34
in this manner then it's I mean somebody intended for the children to die in this
00:24:41
fire right no survivors now that someone the investigators said was Cameron Todd
00:24:47
Willingham and this was a triple homicide [Music] if there is something interfering with
00:25:02
your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals that are help online counseling can help better help
00:25:08
offers licensed professional counselors who specialize in issues such as depression anxiety relationships trauma
00:25:15
anger or family conflicts LGBTQ matters grief self-esteem and more connect with a professional counselor in a safe and
00:25:24
private online environment and get help at your own time and at your own pace anything that you share is completely
00:25:30
confidential it's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as chat and text with your
00:25:36
therapist best of all it's a truly affordable option our listeners even get 10% off your first month with discount
00:25:42
code garage so why not get started today go to better help calm slash garage then
00:25:48
simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with the counselor you'll love that's
00:25:55
better help calm slash garage that's better help calm slash garage this holiday season maybe it's time to
00:26:03
gift the ones you love or yourself something a little cozier lucky for you Brooklyn and its delivering comfort all
00:26:10
season long home of Internet's favorite sheets Bourke linens got over 50,000 five-star reviews and Counting I love my
00:26:19
Brooklyn and sheets you're going to love them too not only do I love the comfort
00:26:24
but I love the style they got so many wonderful styles to choose from and you're gonna love their website Brooklyn
00:26:31
and offers luxury sheets robes loungewear and more without the luxury markups they even moved beyond the
00:26:39
bedroom to offer essentials for your bathroom like towels shower curtains and bath mats like softness comfort
00:26:46
essentials to help you relax Brooklyn has it all I couldn't recommend their products more for graduates newlyweds
00:26:53
friends or family or treating yourself to a bedroom upgrade you deserve get 10% off and free shipping any time when you
00:27:02
shop at Brooklyn and calm and use promo code garage Brooklyn and is so confident
00:27:07
in their product that all of their sheets comforters and towels come with a lifetime warranty
00:27:12
to get 10% off and free shipping go to Brooklyn and dot-com that's BR oh okay Li and E n calm and
00:27:21
use promo code garage Brooklyn and everything you need to live your most comfortable life the holidays are
00:27:29
approaching and you may be thinking about how you're going to save some extra money
00:27:33
well consolidate your high interest credit card balances to a lower rate and save with light stream get a rate as low
00:27:41
as five point nine five percent APR with Auto pay that's much lower than the national average interest rate of over
00:27:48
twenty percent APR plus your rate is fixed so as rates continue to rise your low rate won't budge there are no fees
00:27:57
and you can even get your money as soon as the day you apply just for our listeners apply now to get a special
00:28:04
interest rate discount the only way to get this discount is to go to light stream dot-com slash TCG that's Li gh T
00:28:15
s TR EA m.com slash TCG subject to credit approval rate includes a 0.50% auto pay discount terms and conditions
00:28:27
apply and offers are subject to change without notice visit light stream comm slash TCG for
00:28:34
more information that's light stream comm slash TCG [Music] all right cheers mates thanks for
00:28:50
joining us Cheers the you captain shares to you crispy Colonel the arson triple homicide
00:28:56
ruling wasn't the only thing that was working against Todd Willingham despite initial witness reports that
00:29:03
Todd had been hysterical and distraught crying out for his children yelling to Diane and to have somebody call 911
00:29:13
having to be restrained by firefighters and father Monahan more than once some of the witnesses began tempering their
00:29:21
statements and others came out with statements against Todd Diane Barbie told police that she had never seen Todd
00:29:31
try to enter the house she told PBS Frontline that Todd was a very mean man and she commented to police that Todd
00:29:41
seemed more concerned about moving his car than with his kids being inside the burning home right Todd told police that
00:29:50
he moved his car from the burning house so it wouldn't explode causing further damage
00:29:57
another neighbor said Todd did not appear to be excited or even concerned about the fact that his kids were
00:30:03
trapped in that he made no effort to go into the flames at times Todd was described as calm and defeated
00:30:13
squatting in the yard or sitting on the fire truck bumper or sitting on the curb
00:30:17
and father Monahan - he dialed back his early statements that Todd seemed hysterical
00:30:25
did he dial back his black eye well he began to imply that as he thought about things more after this event that he
00:30:35
says Todd seemed to be completely in control and perhaps he was putting on an act people started to whisper that Todd
00:30:42
wasn't injured or at least wasn't as injured as he should be let's get into who is Cameron Todd Willingham let's
00:30:52
take a look at this and but when we discuss his character one thing I want everybody to try to keep in mind it
00:30:59
might get a little difficult it's important to remember that just because Todd was not likable and in my
00:31:05
humble garage opinion a bad person that does not mean that he is guilty of murder right just because you're a
00:31:14
bonerface doesn't mean you're a murderer Cameron Todd Willingham was born in Ardmore Oklahoma on January 6 1968 his
00:31:24
mother had several children with different men she left when he was an infant and he ended up being raised by
00:31:30
his father gene and his stepmother Eugenia gene was an ex-marine who ran a very strict household Todd didn't always
00:31:40
abide by the rules but he was very close with his stepmother Todd was a good-looking kid with black hair and a
00:31:48
big strong frame but he didn't do well in school and he got in trouble and he dropped out of school this in the tenth
00:31:55
grade after dropping out of school he turns to petty crime and generally just being a hoodlum he was arrested a number
00:32:04
of times this for things like driving drunk public intoxication carrying a concealed weapon stealing bicycles
00:32:13
shoplifting attempted auto theft and burglary the old bike jacking Todd however was a charmer his probation
00:32:23
officer Polly Gooden said that he was one of her favorite kids and one juvenile judge who sentenced him to
00:32:32
probation said quote he just did stupid crap like steal bikes and quote it was just a old [ __ ] turd in quote well Todd
00:32:43
met Stacey Kai Kendall and Corsicana Texas when he was just 20 and she was a senior in high school of Corsicana was a
00:32:53
used to be oil town of 24,000 residents and really this area has fallen on hard times at the time of our story Stacey
00:33:04
was from a troubled home when she was just 4 years old her mother was strangled to death by her stepfather
00:33:13
Stacy and Todd they hit it off and got serious fast he moved to Corsicana from Oklahoma to be with her Stacy got
00:33:23
pregnant and gave birth to Amber and then again later giving birth to the twins right Todd Willingham was only 23
00:33:32
when he found himself saddled with a girlfriend and three kids under the age of three years old and he had one killer
00:33:41
mullet yeah that's right he had a mullet that won awards and different states well he and Stacy Stacy
00:33:50
was a little bit younger than him got married a few months before the fire by all accounts including Todd's own
00:34:00
admissions years later he treated her very badly not only did Todd cheat on Stacy but he drank way too much and he
00:34:10
would leave for periods of time again though I mean this might prove that you're a bad person or douche canoe or
00:34:17
whatever but that doesn't mean you're a murderer well he loved to play darts he was known to flirt with a lot of women
00:34:25
and again often drinking a lot well again to be fair I told you about the mullet so chances are they were flirting
00:34:33
with him well I tell you what I actually captain I think that you see this a lot
00:34:38
when boys in their early 20s just aren't ready to be men yet they they've signed
00:34:43
up willingly for grown men responsibilities but due to immaturity they ultimately end up pooping in their
00:34:51
big-boy pants and not being a real man at all real stinky pants yeah well Todd and Stacy's relationship was volatile to
00:34:58
say the least right when the fire occurred Todd was laid off from work and acting as a
00:35:04
stay-at-home dad while Stacy worked at her brothers bar to support the family on top of all of
00:35:11
this Todd was physically abusive to Stacy the police were called to their place more
00:35:17
than once they there were even rumors he tried to induce a miscarriage when she was pregnant with the twins by kicking
00:35:26
her in the stomach one neighbor guy just gets better and better well that that's
00:35:31
a rumor but we know the physical abuse was in fact a truth right but if he didn't stop the physical abuse why she
00:35:40
was pregnant then that seems like the rumor sounds true even if he wasn't kicking her in the stomach if he's
00:35:47
abusing her while she's pregnant that can cause a miscarriage one neighbor called the police saying that they could
00:35:54
hear Todd hitting Stacie and yelling at Stacie saying get up [ __ ] and I'll hit
00:36:00
you again Stacie said that Todd would never hurt their kids much less deliberately kill
00:36:08
them she said that he lived for his girls and he spoiled them rotten let's point out that the girl's autopsies
00:36:17
showed no evidence of any physical abuse right but this was inconsequential in the minds of many as corsican a resident
00:36:27
Vicki Prater put it to Frontline about the community turning against Todd she said quote Todd Willingham had not
00:36:36
treated his family in a respected manner so he didn't get the benefit of the doubt that some people would have
00:36:45
prosecutors weren't sure what Todd's motive would be to murder his children there were life insurance policies on
00:36:54
the children but they were purchased by Stacy's grandfather who he was the beneficiary of a grand total of $15,000
00:37:05
right but I think the one of the things that you have to look at when you're looking at motive here is we have a very
00:37:13
poor family living in a poor area and a poor house right before Christmas depression is you know is higher up
00:37:24
during these times suicide rates are higher up during these times they're paying bills that they're late on
00:37:31
they're shopping at the Goodwill store too for Christmas they have three mouths to feed he has no job
00:37:39
you could argue that by setting the fire and ending their lives that this is his
00:37:46
way out you know he he's like you said he signed up to put his big-boy pants on and all he's been doing is [ __ ] in
00:37:52
them so now it's going let me take these big boy pants off and this is how I can
00:37:57
do it yeah basically I mean we have a situation here where Todd's not going to benefit financially from the deaths of
00:38:06
these children except of course that he would no longer have any financial obligations right for these three
00:38:14
children as well the district attorney Pat Bachelor attributed the alleged murders to quote the children
00:38:21
interfering with his beer drinking and dart throwing and quote after Todd was released from the hospital he had burns
00:38:29
on his hands face and neck one shoulder and singed hair and eyebrows he and a friend arrived at the burned-out home in
00:38:39
a truck blasting loud music this - picked through the wreckage for salvageable items
00:38:46
Todd was observed to lament the loss of his beloved dartboard and some neighbors
00:38:52
said they could hear laughter and after a few days after the fire people in the community held a dark competition
00:38:59
fundraiser this to gather funds for the girls funerals Todd and Stacey attended this and as Vicki Prater the fundraiser
00:39:08
organizer put it Todd had too much fun for people's liking he asked the bar owner to put aside a new set of darts
00:39:17
for him Prater didn't want to have him spend the community's donations on these darts so she took money out of her
00:39:26
pocket giving it to him for the darts set right now personally I understand why they're trying to raise the money
00:39:34
and all that stuff but personally if it was me I couldn't even attend something like that
00:39:39
it would be very difficult but what we have is a situation here where there might be rumors and speculation amongst
00:39:47
the community there's been no charges brought forth right or forward yeah now the rumors as stated started to
00:39:55
swirl that Todd was heard saying that money will start to roll in because people pitied him this of course did not
00:40:03
sit well with any of the locals police investigators on the case began to make note of circus circumstantial evidence
00:40:11
against Todd in police interviews Todd came across more as a patting himself on the back type for what he tried to do to
00:40:20
save his children the lead investigator Jimmy Hensley said two frontline quote Todd didn't show any remorse through the
00:40:29
interview until I actually showed him the pictures of his children at that time he started crying you know I don't
00:40:36
think he was sad so much that he killed the kids as much as that it's coming to light that you know he's a suspect in it
00:40:44
this is awful tragedy but we don't know how somebody is gonna react first of all
00:40:50
we have rumors and reason to believe that this guy's character Todd's character it was like you said before of
00:40:58
that of a shit-stained so he's just going back to that original character again that does not mean that he is
00:41:07
responsible but once you kind of you know place his character with the evidence that this fire was started by
00:41:17
somebody this is what leads to his arrest right fire started by somebody who Todd admittedly says was in the home
00:41:26
before the fire started right so he is arrested and this was by a SWAT team on January 8th 1992 he was
00:41:35
held on 1 million dollars bond while a grand jury was convened to consider an indictment against him an
00:41:43
indictment for capital murder came down on February 13 1992 Todd couldn't afford
00:41:50
a defense attorney so a team was appointed to him this consisted of David Martin a
00:41:56
former state trooper and Robert Dunn a local defense attorney who handled all types of cases
00:42:03
Todd was adamant that he had not set the fire and he did not kill his children he
00:42:09
was also adamant about his innocence that when the prosecutor offered Todd a chance to plead guilty to avoid the
00:42:18
death penalty Todd refused to accept this deal his father and stepmother even visited him
00:42:24
and begged him to take this deal but Todd would not budge saying quote I ain't gonna plead to something I didn't
00:42:32
do especially killing my own kids and quote one at this point his own lawyers see the evidence and say hey look there
00:42:40
is a lot of evidence against you or at least pointing in your direction and I believe they advised him to take the
00:42:48
deal as well 100% and very likely they probably shared the evidence with his parents
00:42:54
asking them hey we can't talk sense into this guy right you go talk to him at the
00:42:59
very least as his representative because that's one thing we've talked about in other cases like when the guy that had -
00:43:06
that had the horrible responsibility of defending John Wayne Gacy in court yeah he said you know 30 years later he's he
00:43:17
says basically what you have to do what your responsibility is when you go into a situation like this and you believe
00:43:25
your client to be guilty and john wayne gacy of such horrible crimes Todd Willingham of the deaths of his three
00:43:33
children horrible crimes at the very least to provide your client with some form of service your job is to at least
00:43:43
make it so that the state does not execute your client well in this case reminds me a lot of like the Chris Watts
00:43:50
case the family went missing they couldn't find the family so all the sudden you have the husband acting
00:43:58
suspicious right but nobody really wants to blame the husband and in this case there's this awful
00:44:07
fire these kids died in the fire you know right before Christmas the the husband's acting a little strange and
00:44:15
you don't want to blame him now we're to the point where he's arrested and everybody is looking at the evidence and
00:44:22
looking at his character and going hey take this deal you know and at least you won't be executed yeah the the trial
00:44:32
State vs Willingham commenced on August 18 1992 and it lasted just three days surprisingly the prosecuting attorney
00:44:44
was assistant DA John Jackson the Honorable buck Douglas presided in Jackson's opening statement he told the
00:44:54
jury that Todd Willingham poured a combustible liquid on the floor of the kid's room and then poured more of that
00:45:01
same liquid in the hallway and out the front door he then stood by and did nothing
00:45:07
as the heat flames and smoke killed his three children in his own opening statement Todd's attorney David Martin
00:45:16
rebutted that statement saying quote the state's theory in the case is the most unexpected unprofitable scenario that we
00:45:26
can imagine end quote he argued that the state's case was entirely circumstantial
00:45:32
now in a surprise move the state called its first witness this was convicted felon his name Johnny Webb aged 22 I had
00:45:43
just sounds like a convicted felon old Johnny Webb well he was a career criminal and a crack addict who was in
00:45:53
the Navarro County Jail at the same time as Todd this is in January and February
00:45:59
of 92 Webb was in on robbery and forgery charges he suffered from psychiatric disorders and was on various medications
00:46:10
when asked on direct examination whether he had quote any trouble with mental impairment or anything like that he
00:46:18
responded not always Webb testified that he met Todd while in jail and one day while the two were
00:46:26
standing on either side of a glass partition that had a slot for you know like the meal tray so that can come
00:46:34
through they would stand there and where the slot is they could actually talk to
00:46:38
each other communicate through that spot because of the slot Todd broke down he says Todd broke down
00:46:46
on this one day crying and during this time that he's crying he confesses to Johnny that he in fact did kill his kids
00:46:54
the story Todd told Johnny Webb according to Webb's - so moany was this Todd came home and found one of the
00:47:02
girls severely injured perhaps even dead because of something that Stacy did to the child Todd decided that the way to
00:47:11
get out of this situation would be to set a house fire he took some lighter fluid and squirted it all around on the
00:47:21
walls and the floors in a pentagram pattern and then lit it but first he lit some newspaper and burned one of the
00:47:31
kids on their arms and forehead this to make it look like they had been playing with fire and that that set the fire he
00:47:41
says then he ran out of the house and refused to re-enter the home now according to Webb this whole spontaneous
00:47:49
confession thing went down in an area that was in full view of guards and other prisoners and right underneath
00:47:57
microphones connected to the intercom system that was monitored by prison staff and Webb had only met Todd less
00:48:07
than a month before Todd denied involvement in the fire to anyone and everyone including Webb yet all of a
00:48:15
sudden he decided to unburden himself to this stranger yeah I never trust these jailhouse snitches well it in this
00:48:26
situation anyway it defies belief to me I agree but often in these cases when somebody from prison
00:48:34
snitches on somebody else and they use him in a trial the prosecution was able to like gift them something so basically
00:48:42
pay them for their confession yeah that I mean it's a it's a favor for a favor essentially the problem on top of that
00:48:51
and this specific incident is that this confession should have been heard by somebody else or recorded on top of him
00:49:02
just telling this other jail mate right before Webb left the stand Jackson the prosecutor asked him Johnny have I ever
00:49:11
promised you anything in return for your testimony in this case to which Johnny answer's no sir you have not now let's
00:49:19
make sure that we remember Johnny Webb's testimony the next state's witness was Diane barbi the neighbor who called 911
00:49:30
she testified that she ran down the street saw the burning house and Todd on the porch and that he was screaming
00:49:37
then she stated that he started screaming whenever we came outside she said the house was not in flames but the
00:49:47
smoke was coming from down low she admitted that when she ran to find a neighbor to call 911
00:49:55
she was gone maybe six minutes she said Todd was hysterical hollering and all but he managed to tell her that amber
00:50:04
had woke him up and then jumped off the bed and he couldn't find her in the black smoke
00:50:10
she said that while Todd ran back and forth between the house and the yard a few times she couldn't get him to go
00:50:19
back in to save the girls another neighbor this is mr. long arrived and just then the house blew up the heat was
00:50:28
so intense Diane could feel it from where she stood in the Daniels yard this is the yard between hers and the
00:50:36
Willingham's right she could hear electricity popping she said she said she could not tell whether Todd was
00:50:44
injured but he had black soot all over his arms and back and his hair and eyelashes were
00:50:50
burned Todd pushed his car back from the house about eight feet down the driveway and
00:50:57
then sat down across the street on the curb the fire trucks arrived at 10:26 the next morning Diane testified a small
00:51:07
group gathered at the burn house including Todd a boombox was blasting music from someone's truck but they
00:51:15
turned it off when they saw her that night Todd and Stacy came by and Stacy was crying and they were discussing that
00:51:22
a neighbor was taking up a collection and Todd and Stacy had bought some clothes for amber this presumably to
00:51:31
bury her in Todd said to stacy in front of diane that he tried to go back into the burning house Diane's daughters both
00:51:41
testified that they did not see Todd try to go into the burning home that he did
00:51:47
not appear injured and that he appeared more concerned about his car John Bailey
00:51:53
the neighbor across the street testified that the day after the fire he saw Todd
00:51:58
and Stacy going through the debris he said quote it was not the attitude of people that just lost their children
00:52:05
should have had but that's a case in so many cases as people go wall they're just acting different than I would and
00:52:14
so therefore that means they're guilty in those people's eyes it's kind of strange that people do that constantly
00:52:20
he goes on to say that it was more of a laughing cut-up type of attitude jerry long another neighbor stated that during
00:52:29
the fire Todd didn't seem quote real excited he would holler about his kids and then stop and look himself over as
00:52:38
if to see whether he was injured long denied that Todd had cried at all but on cross-examination by David Martin he
00:52:48
admitted that in an earlier statement to police he had attested that Todd had been crying he also said that sparks and
00:52:56
popping sounds were coming from the utility pole where the wires met house and that Todd commented to him
00:53:04
that they had some trouble with the electricity one of the first responding firefighters testified that when he
00:53:11
arrived Todd approached him and told him that his babies were in the house he could
00:53:17
see that the front rooms of the house were ablaze including the floors and the porch he entered the home through the
00:53:25
front door and noted that the back door was blocked by a refrigerator the twins were on the floor in the front
00:53:33
bedroom burned beyond any possibility of survival on the stand that this firefighter referred to the Willingham
00:53:41
home as the crime scene and Martin moved for a mistrial but the judge denied his
00:53:48
motion he also denied Martin's motion to exclude the inflammatory photos of the two charred infants corpses introduced
00:53:58
into evidence by the prosecution the firefighter whose last name is Frank's continued to testify he said that at the
00:54:06
scene on the day of the fire Todd did not exhibit any symptoms of smoke inhalation
00:54:11
Frank's also said that when he was at the scene after the fire to collect evidence
00:54:17
Todd was also there and was looking through the house for his dart set and was quite upset about not being able to
00:54:23
find it right Ethel Baptist a nurse who was on duty at the hospital testified that Todd did a lot of crying and saying
00:54:33
that he should have died with his girls it should have been him instead of them she saw only small burns on Todd on his
00:54:43
hands and back and his hair and eyebrows and lashes were singed on cross Martin asked her if she knew that Todd had soot
00:54:53
in his nasal cavities and throat she said she was not aware of this but when pressed admitted that one would get soot
00:55:02
in these areas after breathing in smoke after carefully setting up the narrative
00:55:09
that Todd Willingham was self-centered calculated violent psycho who wanted his kids out of the way so he
00:55:18
could pursue various recreational activities prosecutor John Jackson called Douglas Fogg the fire
00:55:25
investigator to the stand Fogg testified that investigators could not find any accidental causes of the fire including
00:55:34
gas leaks and no electrical shorts he said the space heater was off note they checked this days after the fire so
00:55:43
technically anyone could have turned it to the off position correct the glass windows were examples of crazed glass
00:55:52
which can be caused by fire burning and accelerant the fire seemed to burn low to the floor rather than high up there
00:56:02
was a puddling effect on the floor in the hallway and in the kids room indicating a liquid was poured the floor
00:56:09
was burning underneath the metal threshold plate at the front door this indicating the presence of an accelerant
00:56:17
the wood under the aluminum threshold and a melted charcoal lighter fluid container tested positive for quote
00:56:25
mineral spirits of kerosene is accelerant the the kind that would be found in charcoal lighter fluid wood
00:56:35
fires don't burn hotter than 800 degrees and the degree of damage to the aluminum
00:56:41
threshold piece shows that this fire burned hotter requiring an accelerant and the burn v patterns and puddling
00:56:49
showed that the fire was started in three different locations accidental fires don't start in three different
00:56:56
locations Foggs testimony was backed up by Manuel Vasquez the state arson investigator he bragged on the stand
00:57:06
that he investigated 1,200 to 1,500 fires and quote most all of them had turned out to be arson and that he never
00:57:14
knew of a time when he was wrong he said he knew the fire was arson from his investigation of the scene but also
00:57:22
because Todd had told him a story of pure fabrication if Todd had really looked for his children in the burning
00:57:31
home his feet would have been burned and he did not appear to have any signs of smoke inhalation
00:57:39
when Vasquez spoke with him days after the fire over objections from the defense attorneys Vasquez was permitted
00:57:49
to answer a question from the prosecutor based on your investigation and our examination of the scene in your
00:57:58
conclusions can you tell what the arsonist intended to do by setting this fire his response yes his intent was to
00:58:08
kill the little girls the state presented the two pathologist who performed the autopsies they testified
00:58:15
that the girls died of carbon monoxide poisoning from smoke inhalation they also said that because of the charred
00:58:22
nature of the kids bodies it would be difficult to determine whether there were any surface injuries to the kids
00:58:30
that predated the fire but that they did not observe any internal injuries or broken bones an ER doctor testified that
00:58:40
Todd had first degree burns on his face and neck a small second-degree burn on his right
00:58:46
shoulder and a blister burn on his middle finger on his left hand he also had soot present in his nose and in the
00:58:55
back of his throat with a slight cough but his carbon monoxide level was only 3% this consistent with being a smoker
00:59:05
which Todd was and with all this damning evidence against Todd this is where the
00:59:10
prosecution will rest [Music] this show has been brought to you by better help whatever struggles you are
00:59:25
facing from depression and anxiety to trauma and grief better help can connect you with a professional counselor and a
00:59:31
safe and private online environment it's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as chat
00:59:38
and text with your therapist and anything that you share is completely confidential best of all it's a truly
00:59:43
affordable option our listeners even get 10% off your first month with discount code garage so why not get started
00:59:51
simply go to better help calm slash garage and fill out a questionnaire to get matched with the counselor you'll
00:59:56
love today that's better help calm slash garage introducing the Jeffrey Epstein I knew a new podcast from CNN hosted by
01:00:06
Vicki ward the 7 episode series takes you behind the scenes to hear a one-of-a-kind account of Epstein an
01:00:13
individual who's more myth than man Vicki Ward has been reporting on Jeffrey Epstein for almost two decades and takes
01:00:21
listeners beyond the headlines to explore who Jeffrey Epstein really was where he got his money and the
01:00:28
circumstances surrounding his death subscribe to the podcast the Jeffrey Epstein I new wherever you get your
01:00:35
podcast want to remind everybody to check out our other show it's a great show sometimes it's funny sometimes it's
01:00:41
mystery sometimes it's more true crime you never know what you're gonna get this week for the people that listened
01:00:47
to off the record on stitcher premium they got to hear me and the captain talk about what we call the serial killers of
01:00:54
comedy check outs it's your premium off the record yeah the lopper you hear about the Lauper thanks for joining us
01:01:02
in the garage and be kind to everybody that's right you better be kind also be good and don't let her
01:01:08
[Music] [Applause] [Music]