00:00:07
[Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thank you
00:00:45
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that would like to inform you that big tech is
00:00:51
spying on you right now he is the captain that's why when I get out of the shower I do one extra shake and one
00:00:57
extra wink it's good to see you and it's good to be seen thanks for listening thanks for telling
00:01:03
a friend this week we are very proud and happy to be featuring cheer team ale by
00:01:14
the highest and mightiest of the Indiana Brewers the Floyd's that is 3-3 Floyd's
00:01:20
garage grade four and a half bottle caps out of five I love the untapped description here because it is spot on
00:01:28
this IPA is an instant classic the very fruity and may we say juicy hop character is unrelentingly delicious and
00:01:36
this week's beer is brought to us by these awesome characters right here first up we have Laura C from Texas and
00:01:44
a big we like your jib from Jody from Fort Wayne Indiana and here's a little rock cheers to Jessica down in Little
00:01:51
Rock Arkansas and a big cheers to Kelly in West Jordan Utah next up we go out west and say thank you to our friend Amy
00:01:59
and Chino California and last but certainly not least we have Shelby who is a big captain fan down in Jaguar
00:02:06
country down in Jacksonville Florida everybody we just mentioned went to true-crime garage comm and contributed
00:02:14
to this week's beer fund and for that we give you many many things there's so many things on the website make sure to
00:02:21
sign up on the mailing list so you can get set discount codes for the store page check out our t-shirts we got a
00:02:28
bunch of new merchandise a ton of new merchandise to store the garage store it exploded it's like Walmart it's huge I
00:02:36
mean there's so much but with better stuff I know right that's why it's more like tarjay
00:02:43
so check that out at true-crime garage comm make sure you leave us a five-star review and download the stitcher app
00:02:49
check us out on stitcher if you want to check out one of our old episodes and we
00:02:54
have a weekly show if you can't get enough of the true crime garage checkout off the record on stitcher premium and
00:03:01
that is enough of the business all right everybody gather round grab a chair grab
00:03:08
a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] [Music] on the evening of March 6 1962 29
00:03:59
year-old taxi driver Neville Knight was picking up fares in Sydney's west side Nevel was retired from the Navy where he
00:04:07
was a Morse code expert after the Navy he thought he would drive a cab making some money while driving around it would
00:04:16
be like he was his own boss recently he had been wanting to get out of the cab business he was married and had a
00:04:24
three-year-old daughter at home but daytime jobs were hard to come by so he figured with bills to pay and mouths to
00:04:32
feed he would just keep driving the cab until he found something better it was late in the evening when he
00:04:41
picked up a boy in more Bank as usual the boy opened the back door of the cab and sat down behind night night thought
00:04:50
the boy to be about 16 years old and he was happy to take him wherever he needed
00:04:54
to go for a fee of course the boy gave instructions on where he needed to go but other than this he said
00:05:04
very little they got just about to where they were heading when they ran into some trouble night drove to Fairfield
00:05:13
West as instructed but once there the boy was unsure of the exact location he was looking for a house but it was a
00:05:23
place he had only been one time before and he was having some trouble remembering just where the house was but
00:05:31
he said I'll know it when I see it night didn't care he had a whole shift to finish and better to be driving around
00:05:39
with someone in the car running up the meter they continued driving up and down streets looking for the house
00:05:49
Knight was driving just under 40 mile per hour when he heard a loud explosion reacting to the deafening noise Knight
00:05:58
tried to slam on the brakes but the car continued he then tried to push in the clutch but
00:06:06
he could not feel nor move his leg he quickly grabbed the handbrake and pulled the car screeched swerved and then came
00:06:16
to a stop the boy in the backseat jumped up and hopped out of the vehicle he then opened
00:06:25
the front door to the cab Neville Knight was still very unsure of what had just happened he was in pain he
00:06:34
couldn't seem to move either of his legs thank God he was not alone and now I've
00:06:40
got to tell this boy to go and get some help he thought now with the front door open the boy
00:06:47
looked inside he said nothing stared at Nevel slowly studying him with his eyes and then just like that the boy ran off
00:06:58
into the darkness are many people travel to Australia for many many different reasons it's a popular destination for
00:07:25
outdoor enthusiasts people go there for all kinds of things hiking camping and just traveling the land by different
00:07:32
means of travel now like in the US at one time hitchhiking was commonplace in fact it was even encouraged and enjoyed
00:07:40
especially by the younger travelers low on funds it was a cheap and adventurous way to get from place to place
00:07:48
hitchhiking in Australia for the most part was considered to be safe this being decades ago if you were traveling
00:07:55
in pairs or in a group now let's start off on January 25th 1990 we have a young man here named Paul onions he's 24 years
00:08:05
old now he's from the UK but he is in Australia on holiday he had been there for about a month
00:08:12
travelling seeing the sights and getting around by several means of travel but on
00:08:16
this day he was looking to hitch a ride he's looking to hitchhike so he's standing out at the edge of the Hume
00:08:24
Highway some sections of this are now known as the hume freeway or hume motorway this is one of Australia's
00:08:31
major intercity national highways spanning over 500 miles and it runs between the major cities of Melbourne
00:08:39
and Sydney a Paul is about a mile or so from the bilang glow state forest he's got his thumb in the air but he's having
00:08:48
no luck really so far with any offer for a ride so he starts walking south eventually he decides to take a break
00:08:59
stopping off to grab a drink and a snack it is here that a man approaches Paul the man is muscular with a dark mustache
00:09:07
and he introduces himself as bill they get to talking and eventually bill offers Paul a left Paul told bill where
00:09:16
he was hoping to get to and Bill agreed that he would drive him over 200 kilometers Paul and Bill climbed into
00:09:23
Bill's silver four-wheel-drive and they drove off as they were driving south the
00:09:28
normal conversations took place now this Drive could be a long one it's probably going to be maybe a three-hour
00:09:36
drive at most so after about an hour according to Paul bill started getting weird he was looking around a lot as he
00:09:46
drove his behavior voice and words were becoming increasingly aggressive and angry he was spouting out racial slurs
00:09:55
left and right this of course is making Paul very very uneasy he doesn't know this man and this man is behaving
00:10:04
strangely bill stops the vehicle he's telling Paul that he's got to retrieve some cassette tapes from the trunk of
00:10:13
the vehicle so that they can listen to them now Paul is already on edge right and he looks over and he sees cassettes
00:10:20
inside the vehicle so the reasoning for stopping is not making a lot of sense to
00:10:25
Paul this is enough to make Paul seriously question what this man named bill could be up to after bill got out
00:10:35
of the vehicle Paul did as well this apparently upsets bill basically with a growl he tells Paul to get back in the
00:10:44
vehicle Paul decides he better play along bill reaches under the seat and he pulls out a revolver sticking the nose
00:10:53
of the gun in Paul's face Paul says he could see the shiny bullets in the cylinder bill tells him that this is a
00:11:02
robbery then he produces some rope Paul is terrified he jumps out of the vehicle
00:11:09
he runs as fast as he could right into in traffic bill is now yelling at Paul and then he starts pulling the trigger
00:11:19
the cars swerved to avoid hitting Paul but they just keep on driving finally Paul is able to flag down a van he jumps
00:11:28
in from the sliding side door Paul is screaming to the people inside he's got a gun he's got a gun the driver
00:11:38
sees the man with the gun the man appears to be going back to his vehicle the driver is Joanne berry and with her
00:11:47
is her sister and five kids Joanne is desperate to get away and she does not want the man with the gun following her
00:11:55
especially with the van full of kids Joanne goes in reverse makes a u-turn and now facing the opposite direction
00:12:03
she slams the pedal to the floor and speeds off she drives Paul to a police station there he reports the attack he
00:12:12
gives a description of the man and tells them the man that he knows only as bill
00:12:17
said that he is a road worker he also provides a description of the gun and the vehicle now Paul he was like super
00:12:26
panicked right when fleeing this vehicle so of course he left behind everything that he brought with him he leaves
00:12:32
behind his backpack this held everything that Paul was traveling with including his passport so not only does he provide
00:12:40
them a description of the man the gun the vehicle and some of the things that this man bill told him he also leaves
00:12:47
them a good description of the items he left behind and Bill's vehicle a police did send out the description of the man
00:12:55
and the vehicle they were looking for this man who attempted to commit an armed robbery that's the way this was
00:13:03
reported nothing came of the search for the armed robber they never found the suspect never made an arrest by June of
00:13:11
1992 the missing persons unit was quite busy as missing-persons cases they were piling up at a faster pace than normal
00:13:20
the Sydney Morning Herald ran several articles regarding this one by Christian ray'll this was particularly interesting
00:13:29
it says police were optimistic in one of the cases this was of two missing women
00:13:35
caroline jane clark and joanne leslie walters both 22 years old were visiting Australia and they were there on a
00:13:44
working holiday police were optimistic that they would find the women alive and well this is because they received over
00:13:52
100 calls from people all over the place saying they have seen the two English women the women were missing sometime
00:14:02
it's believed to be like April of 1992 a large number of calls were coming in from the Northern Territory and from
00:14:11
Darwin police were hoping to confirm the sightings of these women they were able
00:14:18
to get a copy of what is believed to be Caroline's last letter two missing women
00:14:24
were travelling Australia and securing fruit-picking jobs along their way the letter was written from Queenstown
00:14:33
postmarked April 8th this letter stated that they intended to go to Sydney and then to canoe Norah I know that I did
00:14:42
not say that right there captain this was for a fruit picking job it was supposed to last for weeks then they
00:14:50
would continue on to Ayers Rock so police were optimistic about the sightings however the problem here is
00:14:58
none of the ladies have contacted family or touched their bank accounts since April the article that I read was from
00:15:05
late June so about two months or so that it's believed that they possibly have been missing police figured out that
00:15:12
Clarke and Walters checked out of a Kings Cross backpackers hostel this too in April and this is the last confirmed
00:15:21
sighting of the two women what they were looking into is if there is any possibility that this could be connected
00:15:29
to the December disappearance of a young couple from Germany that young couple just like the two English women their
00:15:36
last known whereabouts was a Kings Cross back Hostel the missing German couple is
00:15:42
gabor Neugebauer 21 years old in anya have she'd age 20 so by this point in our story captain we
00:15:51
have four missing persons four that have made the papers anyway and this is June
00:15:58
of 1992 now on Saturday September 19th 1992 two men found a body in the Blanco State Forest this was around 4:15 in the
00:16:11
afternoon this is in one of the more dense forest areas of the State Forest the men were out on an orange hearing
00:16:20
exercise practicing their skills near the Long Acre fire trail the body was well hid in fact they only found it
00:16:28
because they were investigating a terrible smell that they thought could be coming from a kangaroo carcass which
00:16:35
of course was not the case the body was wedged under a rock ledge and partially covered with shrubbery the next day
00:16:45
police working the scene found a second body just about 40 metres from the first
00:16:50
the second body was hidden by bushes and was badly decomposed detectives on the scene told reporters that although they
00:16:58
could not immediately name the cause of death or identify either victim they said they were investigating a double
00:17:06
homicide now using dental records they were able to determine the identity of both of the
00:17:14
victims investigators learned that their victims are Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters both missing since late April of
00:17:21
1992 Caroline Clark's head and face were wrapped and covered with a maroon sweatshirt she had been shot ten times
00:17:30
through the top of her head she was stabbed twice in the back and stabbed once in the chest I believe this was an
00:17:37
attempted single stab to the heart Joanne Walters was found gagged using pieces of her shirt she had been cut and
00:17:45
stabbed many times with one of these stab wounds severing her spine which would have left her paralyzed during her
00:17:53
fight in an attempt to flee from her attacker or attackers now reports vary on the
00:18:01
level of mutilation here with stabs reported as high as over 30 times and as little as 20 times either way what we're
00:18:12
looking at here is a frenzied knife attack that killed her one of the things that I find extremely interesting here
00:18:19
is the statements by the investigators right very early on in this investigation they are saying that they
00:18:27
would be expecting to find more bodies all right we have two victims we already have two victims so I can see where
00:18:36
they're stating hey in this very dense forest location in a place where bodies would be extremely hard to find and
00:18:44
locate you know these bodies aren't just lying on the the trail there they're off
00:18:49
well off of the trail and they're concealed almost buried underbrush even the descriptions in some cases describe the
00:18:59
bodies as that as being buried and then the other one like stuffed behind bushes
00:19:04
and things like that the interesting thing here too is one they are seeing things at this crime scene at the murder
00:19:13
scene where they it's very obvious to them that they are looking for potentially more bodies the other thing
00:19:20
you got to wonder too we described the injuries and what could be the cause of death in both cases there's a lot of
00:19:29
overkill involved in each of these attacks so maybe that as well as leading them to making the statement the thing
00:19:37
here as well we have the transient lifestyle that the two victims were living at the time of their
00:19:43
disappearance this also certainly drastically increases the chances that we might be looking at a stranger on
00:19:49
Stranger murder or strangers on strangers attack and murder the Baleno force let's talk about this location
00:19:58
where these two victims bodies were found this is an important aspect to this crime in to this case and it will
00:20:04
also help to steer the direction and the focus of their investigation the State Forest
00:20:10
is in New South Wales and located 3 kilometres west of the Hume Highway this is a popular park open to the public
00:20:19
and it features trails for hiking dirt bikes quads there are creek crossings and plenty of
00:20:26
camping areas the State Forest is quite big and it looks like the most populous trees there are pine I was able to find
00:20:37
actually the you know how big of a location this is however the trend trying to figure out how to transfer
00:20:46
that into our system gets a little complicated for me remember didn't go to school for math that was a little bit of
00:20:53
computer that I was studying now on October 5th 1993 again we are in the bilang lo state forest and again we are
00:21:02
near the long fire acre trail a man he is out collecting firewood he found another body this discovery led to
00:21:12
another finding lying just 20 meters away was an additional body later it was determined that they located the bodies
00:21:20
of Deborah Everest and James Gibson these two were missing for about four years see in late 1989 the two took off
00:21:30
together on a backpacking adventure they were both just 19 years old at the time
00:21:35
both were recently accepted into college so this was supposed to be one of those
00:21:39
last big adventures before they get serious about going to school before leaving James told his mother that they
00:21:47
intended to hitchhike their way around to which she tried to talk him out of she was warning him that hitchhiking was
00:21:54
very dangerous Deborah last made contact with her parents calling home on December 28th
00:22:01
there was an earthquake that day and she called home to tell them that she and James were alright now two days later
00:22:10
the young couple left a communal house and Surry Hills the night before they were telling others there that they
00:22:17
intended to hitchhike their way down south three months later James Gibson's red backpack was found on the
00:22:25
roadside and Deborah's camera was found nearby but no one knew what happened to the young couple for all of that time
00:22:34
until these bodies were found a strange thing here captain those two items James's backpack and the camera after
00:22:43
the bodies were found we would learn that the backpack in the camera were nowhere near the location of the bodies
00:22:50
this is in fact many many miles apart apparently the killer or killers drove these items extremely far away before
00:22:59
tossing them on the side of the road Deborah was found hogtied her skull and jaw were fractured it does not seem like
00:23:09
early on that law enforcement were certain of the cause of this fracture but it looks like the cause of death was
00:23:16
the stab wounds to her head the Sydney Morning Herald reported James was stabbed multiple times including one
00:23:24
through the spinal cord also stab wounds that punctured his lungs and as the herald put it in both cases extreme
00:23:33
force had been used and it seemed that the victims had not been able to defend themselves now we already mentioned
00:23:41
police saying that they were expecting to find more bodies well now they're pretty clear about this statement
00:23:49
publicly they start stating that the murders were connected believed to be connected and that they were searching
00:23:56
for a serial killer or killers everybody knows that birthdays anniversaries holidays they are
00:24:14
important these are the important dates most people tend to remember the par cast Network remembers important dates
00:24:20
in true crime history today and true crime is the new daily podcast that takes you back to the biggest events and
00:24:27
true crime that happened each day in history whether the crime is infamous or just plain interesting there's a crime
00:24:35
story for every day of the year August 31st 1888 Jack the Ripper commits his first murder
00:24:42
October 3rd 1995 OJ is acquitted November 19 2017 cult leader Charles Manson dies with new episodes each day
00:24:54
you'll never run out of true crime content again and you no longer have to wait for weeks to get your true crime
00:25:01
fix crime never takes a day off and now neither does par cast follow today and true crime for free on Spotify and
00:25:09
anywhere you listen to podcast credit card bills every month you get them with multiple payments and multiple due dates
00:25:18
wouldn't it be easier to just have one payment at a lower rate you can with a credit card consolidation loan from my
00:25:27
friends at light stream get a rate as low as five point nine five percent APR with Auto pay that's a low rate and the
00:25:34
best part of it to that rate is fixed so it will never go up over the life of the
00:25:39
loan you can get a loan from five thousand dollars all the way up to a hundred thousand dollars with no fees
00:25:45
and you can even get your money as soon as the day you apply look it's a no-brainer if you got credit card debt
00:25:53
multiple credit cards out there simplify your life and manage your time and your
00:25:58
money better with light stream you can consolidate those loans let's just have one payment with a much lower rate save
00:26:07
money save time with a light stream just for my listeners apply now to get a special interest rate
00:26:13
this count the only way to get this discount is to go to light stream comm slash TCG that's lig HT s T ar e am calm
00:26:25
slash TCG subject to credit approval rate includes 0.5% auto paid discount terms and conditions apply and offers
00:26:35
her subject to change without notice visit light stream comm slash TCG for more information all right we are back
00:26:54
he is back I am back before we get cranked up too much here captain I do want to thank a big thank you to our
00:27:02
friend anima re cranked on crank yourself big thank you to Cairo he's the B shirt guy that we met a
00:27:12
couple weeks ago oh yeah yeah Thank You Cairo for the awesome beers all right captain we have still plenty to get to
00:27:21
here because on November 1st 1993 we're now in a location that's about 5 kilometers away from where the bodies of
00:27:30
Deborah and James were found the body of Simone Schmitt --all was found in this location Simone was 21 years old from a
00:27:39
town near Munich she was visiting Australia and traveling around now on January 20th 1991 she was traveling solo
00:27:49
and she told some friends she planned to catch a train to Liverpool and then hitchhike her way down the Hume Highway
00:27:57
after this she has never seen alive again now some of her items were found four months after her disappearance
00:28:05
Simone had multiple stab wounds and was stabbed twice through her spine three days later on November 4th 1993 the
00:28:15
bodies of Gabor Neugebauer and Anya Happ she'd were found just about 1 kilometer east of where Simone's
00:28:24
body was located both were missing since Chris miss of 1991 this is the missing German
00:28:30
couple that we discussed earlier Gabor was double gagged one stuffed in his mouth and one tied around his head he
00:28:38
had been strangled and looking through all this I could not figure out if it was thought to be manual or ligature
00:28:44
strangulation but the reports are that the hyoid bone was broken he was also shot in the head six times Anna was
00:28:53
found under a pile of logs branches and debris she was facedown and naked from the waist down she had been decapitated
00:29:02
from what was determined to be a single blow from a heavy bladed object such as a sword or a machete we are now at seven
00:29:12
bodies found total in three of the cases we have two persons traveling together only one case out of the four do we have
00:29:20
someone traveling solo what is common throughout we have witnesses or people who saw or spoke to the victims shortly
00:29:29
before they went missing stating that the victims were believed to be hitchhiking their way around at some of
00:29:36
the sites where the bodies were found not too far from where the bodies themselves were located we have evidence
00:29:43
that the killer spent some time hanging out in the area this could be days leading up to the killings meaning in
00:29:51
separate visits entirely or immediately after the killings what they found was evidence of a campfire near the attacks
00:30:00
plus it one of the body dump locations they found like a makeshift firing range where the shooter shot up trees bottles
00:30:09
and cans now at this makeshift shooting gallery they found tons of shell casings spent
00:30:16
bullets and so on they found two different calibers at one site now they were able to determine from the debris
00:30:23
left behind by the shooter that all of this stuff had been there about the same amount of time this meaning that the two
00:30:31
guns were fired the same day or night not not a situation where one target you know once target shooting and then
00:30:39
returns at a later date with different gun for more target practice right it looked to the detectives as
00:30:46
though the offender had a silencer on the 22 this also makes you believe that one we have multiple cases where there's
00:30:57
two victims and there's different wounds so law enforcement might think okay well
00:31:03
maybe we have more than one killer and now we have a situation where we have somebody shooting off guns but there's
00:31:10
two calibers that would also lead to the idea that maybe that there's more than one individual yeah
00:31:18
and sorry I think I jumped ahead here in my notes captain they were able to determine that one of the calibers that
00:31:24
was used at this shooting gallery let's say was a 22 and they could sit out by markings on the bullets that the a
00:31:33
silencer was being used with the 22 Vaughn also with a gun being involved especially in the three cases of the
00:31:43
couples that would also lead one to believe that maybe there was only one attacker because you could control two
00:31:51
individuals with a gun yeah let's we'll get into that in just one second here but before we do so I
00:31:58
want to point out that you know we have law enforcement very early on with the statement of we're expecting to find
00:32:06
more bodies and then when they do in fact find two more bodies their next statement is we think we're looking for
00:32:13
a serial offender or serial killers here mm-hmm what is confirmed at some point after seven bodies are found we learned
00:32:22
that the there are matching 22 caliber bullets shell casings and cartridge boxes that were found at multiple crime
00:32:33
scenes so not only were they suspicious of this and thinking that they were looking for a serial killer or killers
00:32:40
now they have confirmation of evidence left behind that these attacks and murders are in fact connected well at
00:32:48
least two of the cases we have a spinal cord being severed that is not a very typical injury that you see and
00:32:58
murders yes and you know we've talked about this before with the Lindsay boozy Act case it's for me personally it's
00:33:07
awfully difficult to determine if that is in fact deliberate or if in a frenzied attack that maybe it's just
00:33:16
it's just happenstance that it occurred I feel like in Lindsay's case it could have just occurred like Ilene more that
00:33:25
way right but with some of these it appears to be much more deliberate yeah I it's it's strange to me because the
00:33:32
amount of wounds you know or amount of times that somebody shot or stabbed to me there's a rage element here but then
00:33:42
there's a calculation element in here as well welcome to the segment of armchair
00:33:49
styling and profiling with the captain and Nick but I also think there's an element of calculation here because we
00:33:58
see in again multiple cases where the spinal cord is severed but you also have these this time and this could be having
00:34:06
stance as well but punctured lungs it's almost like this person is creating a scenario where they they want the person
00:34:17
to suffer through this these are kind of suffer wounds if that makes any sense well and the need to like incapacitate
00:34:26
them and make it so that they are unable to flee or to fight back during the course of whatever left what is that
00:34:34
what is left of the attack right and then then you also wonder you sever one person's spinal cord they can't move
00:34:43
they're paralyzed now you can do whatever you want to the other victim and almost make the person like like I
00:34:51
said suffer in pain but also suffer through the attack of the other individual okay so let's go through the
00:34:58
psychological profile of the killer or killers now there were several profiles actually worked up for these cases work
00:35:08
by psychiatrist and criminologist what I did here captain to save us some time is
00:35:15
I try to combo them for one master profile so first as you were pointing out it was tricky right they they are
00:35:26
uncertain if they should be looking for one or two killers police were having trouble with this and mainly for reasons
00:35:34
that you already pointed out but just to simplify they were having trouble with how just one person could lure in most
00:35:41
cases two victims into the forest control them and murder both of them plus we have three cases where we have
00:35:51
two victims in those cases and these incidents one victim is more mutilated than the other so could it in fact be
00:35:59
two killers this was strongly argued in at least two of the profiles that were put forward and in both of these they
00:36:07
cited that brothers would be more likely to be the the team of offenders here often when we have two offenders there
00:36:17
is a more dominant personality of one offender and then a more follower type for the other right the profiles that
00:36:26
pushed the two offender theory cited this as the likely cause for the differing levels of mutilation between
00:36:33
the victims the other difficult thing here is the crime scenes where it appears that two victims are controlled
00:36:42
attacked killed and partially buried or concealed in separate locations yeah be it close together but still separate so
00:36:49
what they're getting at here captain is that two offenders this is certainly possible right is the idea of okay we
00:36:57
we've now attacked our victims all right move your victim to a spot where they couldn't be found and so if they're
00:37:06
separated on some level then you would then the bodies would be separated more once you go to conceal them mm-hmm
00:37:13
where if you have one killer he attacks his victims he he drags one of the victims into a secluded spot where he
00:37:22
think this makes the most sense and then you drag the next victim to the same spot
00:37:25
yeah and I think the the reason why they're pointing out this this scenario here is that you likely have two
00:37:34
offenders because they seem to be choosing two victims and then the thought on top of that is why are we
00:37:39
finding one victim here and then one here when we know that they were once together is that possibly that the
00:37:46
offender wanted privacy from the other offender with the victim right so a lot of a lot of analysis going on here with
00:37:56
these crime scenes yeah some pretty detailed analysis - I don't know if I buy this idea that based off what
00:38:03
evidence we have that you can say well these we think they're brothers of the if there's two killers you know the idea
00:38:11
that you're one stating pretty early on we have a serial killer and we're gonna find more bodies and then you go okay
00:38:18
not only do we have a serial killer but we have a duo serial killer team and they're brothers yeah we actually have
00:38:25
two profiles that were put forward that that shared that thought mm-hmm not outwardly saying that they have to
00:38:32
be brothers but that was something that they were leaning towards in their profile I just wish I knew if there was
00:38:40
something more if they had some more evidence whether that was some kind of I don't know it's still print or or
00:38:50
something that would lead them to believe that there would be they would be related I don't think that it was
00:38:56
evidence that was found as far as like fingerprints are a or anything of that nature
00:39:01
what they're pointing out here is in cases that they have seen in the past look it is it is very rare and I know
00:39:08
that everybody's gonna think of three or four or five cases immediately as soon as I say this but it is rare for there
00:39:15
to be a serial killer team it's it's often they work alone right this is not Batman and Robin yeah and then even more
00:39:22
rare than that would for it to be real a relation that are working together I can't name one so they don't have their
00:39:32
works some cousins in Florida of course there there were actually brothers in Ohio back in the 70s that I
00:39:39
think work worthy they were looking for the 22 caliber killer I believe was the the moniker that was applied to those
00:39:47
cases and it turned out to be two offenders and they were brothers you wonder though so it just happened yeah
00:39:54
but you you said there was a 22 caliber in this case as well yeah you wonder if its chest you know they're doing some
00:40:01
research and going okay whoa in Ohio they were looking for killers and it happened to be brothers you know which I
00:40:07
mean first of all you just don't trust brothers from Ohio that's number one world so the the reason what I think
00:40:15
that they're coming up with this and it's difficult because it is as you pointed out such a small sample size to
00:40:21
come up with this evidence they're they're looking for similarities between solved cases and what they think that
00:40:28
they're looking at and I think where they go to the point of saying that the offender's might be brothers or related
00:40:35
I think I might have taken it a step too far right maybe one of the profiles just
00:40:40
said some relation but they're saying that they've seen in the past that the victims are separated for the purpose of
00:40:48
privacy and they usually see this when there is a relation between the two offenders where if the two offenders are
00:40:56
more just friends or in on this this thing together hobby together that they actually feed off of each other more so
00:41:07
than what brothers or related offenders would so two offenders this is certainly
00:41:13
a possibility but let's go through some other stuff that we know right we have evidence regarding the Paul Onion's
00:41:23
situation that attack he was picked up by one man not two and when the man using the name bill tried to kill him he
00:41:33
shot at him so now when creating this profile to be completely fair to all that we're putting these profiles
00:41:42
forward at this time the experts there were not armed with the information that this Paul Onion's attacked May
00:41:49
in fact be connected right so looking at this information that we know Campton we
00:41:55
now can add crimes where we know that a gun was used and we know that from what we found with our dead victims but we
00:42:02
also know that with Paul onion situation adding the use of the gun to the equation means a signal killer may
00:42:09
possibly been able to control more than one victim at a time so starting there are we looking for one or two let's
00:42:17
let's go to that maybe we're looking for just one offender because the other profiles set out for one offender so
00:42:25
this one offender would be somebody who owns and is very comfortable around guns
00:42:29
this man would be average living an ordinary life given the physical nature of his crimes he would be fit and
00:42:37
possibly athletic expect him to be fairly intelligent he is a loner but he is outwardly sociable a talker he lives
00:42:47
on the outskirts of a city or in a semi-rural area right he is employed in a semi skilled job probably works
00:42:56
outside he has a history of aggression against authority he likely has a record of some kind police record they mean and
00:43:05
may view himself as some type of outlaw they also struggled to come up with the offender's possible age in these
00:43:13
profiles this as we have pointed out several times in many other cases this is one of the hardest details to
00:43:20
estimate but again we have a possible eyewitness so if we go back to the story of Paul onions the the survivor Ryan if
00:43:29
he was in fact attacked by the same man we have a general idea based off of his description of the man's age and so for
00:43:37
the single offender profiles they put the man's age as being in his 30s or 40s he's a man they say that fits into his
00:43:47
surroundings he could be a co-worker neighbor or a friend meaning kind of like the Delphi situation he's hiding in
00:43:55
plain sight mm-hmm he's probably married or in a stable relationship I like how they throw this little thing in here
00:44:02
- even though she may not know it to him the relationship may be unsatisfactory uh see if I was a profiler I'd throw in
00:44:12
some weird stuff just like I don't know why you had to point out that he had a criminal record cuz I don't think
00:44:18
anybody was thinking he has a world record for long jump or anything well you mean me
00:44:24
clarify that's a criminal record but I think if I was profiling I'd throw in like one or two things that I knew
00:44:30
weren't true but also didn't matter that people would just read over and be like
00:44:35
he he also likes peanut butter and jelly sandwiches you know like some random fact some of this next stuff to me seems
00:44:44
a little vague and I and I'm maybe I'll just get into it as we go through it to not to not to confuse anybody here but
00:44:52
so they say he gets asexual and likely and emotional satisfaction from controlling and killing his victims but
00:45:00
ultimately he kills for pleasure for the thrill simply because he enjoys it now although he may not have had intercourse
00:45:08
with the victims he got his kicks by expressing his bizarre deviations through sadistic aggression mutilation
00:45:15
and finally their execution so yeah and there's something you know he could go back we've seen this from time to time
00:45:23
where they're not actually sexually assaulting the victims but then they're going home and thinking about it and
00:45:29
playing you know long games of flicky flicky yeah and I I mean I totally get what they're saying here there is some
00:45:36
suspicion that you know I and I know that they're saying in these profiles that the crimes are sexual in nature
00:45:42
whether or not he's raping or sexually assaulting the victims there does seem to be some evidence at these crime
00:45:52
scenes that there was at least some fondling or something going on during the course of these attacks and again
00:46:00
it's one of those things that you also think questioned I think if you're taking two victims and especially when
00:46:06
you have a female and male combo that would be less likely that it being for sexual reasons
00:46:15
um because if it was purely you know sexual reasons then why wouldn't you just take a victim that was you know
00:46:25
that the single type victim that you're looking for you know if you're does that
00:46:29
make sense Oh 100% I think what what we might be looking at here though captain is and I
00:46:37
and I hate to use some of these terms but but it only makes sense I think it's the you know where he is hunting plays
00:46:45
into a factor of that right so it whether or not it be to offenders are one we have a situation where as you
00:46:55
said we got couples at least in two of the cases we have a couple and yes it would be a lot easier for a single
00:47:05
offender and two offenders to commit these crimes against one person the problem is I think regarding this
00:47:13
specific situation we noted at the start of this episode that hitchhiking was considered to be somewhat safe but we
00:47:24
pointed out that that is considered to be safe when you are traveling as as a group or with another person right I
00:47:32
mean you see this a lot there's a lot of Americans that go over to Europe right after high schooler or sometime during
00:47:40
college to go backpacking through Europe and and you also see this in Australia as well so having that as a part of your
00:47:50
culture and also a part of your economy this also leads towards well this these are also easier prey because one they're
00:48:00
looking for rides mm-hmm they're there they're willing to get into the vehicle well they're yeah cuz
00:48:06
they're well packed that's how he's picking them up well if you ever stayed out like a youth hostel or any you know
00:48:12
hostel is you know you might be in a room with four other strangers you're gonna fall asleep in a room with you
00:48:18
know for other strangers or however many strangers are in that room you know unless you want to pay for like you know
00:48:25
so you're separated but most people don't and so you're already in a situation where you're going let's let's
00:48:31
see the world and let's explore this country and and we have to be trusting of all these strangers that we meet
00:48:38
along our journey so it's really a it's really a perfect scenarios to to just kind of sit there and pick and choose
00:48:49
who you want to pick up well and but what I mean by this is not more so that he's doing it out of necessity rather
00:48:58
than as a preference okay so like right right right because well first of all somebody's gonna be it's more likely if
00:49:06
somebody is traveling alone it be male than female and so and the the chances of anybody really doing a venture like
00:49:16
that on their own is it's probably way less of a percentage as doing it with a group of people yeah there were some
00:49:23
cases in this area that we're talking about that took place in the 70s some of them being unsolved murders and
00:49:31
unsolved missing persons cases where the the victim was believed to have been hitchhiking at the time by themselves
00:49:39
and so it was kind of known in commonplace throughout this area that that you don't do this type of activity
00:49:46
by yourself that you should be with with another person or a group and therefore
00:49:51
I mean he might he might have just been doing this because that's all he could get into his car and we have ed Kemper
00:49:58
who Tolls it tells us that you know it was much easier for him to get two girls in the car at one time rather than than
00:50:06
one there they're just more trusting when they have somebody else to go along with them well and I was thinking about
00:50:12
this the other day because we talked about controlling you know we've talked about this a lot you know we've done
00:50:19
three hundred plus episodes but there's a lot of times where we go okay how did they get the victim into the car or how
00:50:27
do they control two victims and I actually think controlling two victims wouldn't be as hard as as I initially
00:50:37
thought and that's because let's say you have a gun or a knife or whatever you have
00:50:42
and you're controlling you only have to control one of the individuals that other individual chances are is not
00:50:52
going to take off and run for it because what are you doing if you do that right
00:50:57
it's inevitable that the person that you're leaving behind is a goner right and and they've actually you know some
00:51:05
people will cite cases where a serial killer has has looked for a couple especially specifically like a married
00:51:16
couple or a female and male couple because they find that sometimes as you said if you can just control one of the
00:51:26
individuals essentially you're controlling both of them mm-hmm and that's also what has been often
00:51:32
speculated and and theorized in the Delphi murders case right did yes would it be more difficult yes it but given
00:51:42
the relationship of the two involved it might have just been equally as easy to control both and and there's been many
00:51:49
people that have said look those two neither of them would have run or left the other alone they were there for each
00:51:55
other sorry and you see this also like with the zodiac yeah so continuing on with this profile here captain the next
00:52:05
thing is he he would keep items belonging to his victims that he considers to be trophies some of this
00:52:13
stuff is as you pointed out earlier psychological but some of this is also created by evidence the profile itself
00:52:23
right what we know here is we have these individuals that have been murdered that
00:52:28
yes they are out in the middle of you know nowhere essentially in an area that it is very difficult to search and to
00:52:36
find actual evidence but we have multiple situations where it looks like these victims are missing some of their
00:52:43
belongings or all of their belongings so the evidence would tell you this is this
00:52:48
is something that might be psychological but probably more more added to the profile because of the evidence that is
00:52:55
involved found these people but we didn't find their stuff it had to go somewhere they
00:53:00
believed that the offender or offenders would be keeping some of the items belonging to the victims and they may
00:53:06
consider these to be trophies now one forensic psychologist in his profile stated that he's talking about a
00:53:17
single offender said quote he's bad rather than mad he's evil he's not crazy is what they're pointing
00:53:26
out there mmm-hmm and one one thing that is strange here to me is this reminds me
00:53:36
in a sense portions of this profile remind me of Jack the Ripper a little bit so somebody who kills for pleasure
00:53:44
and that the killer the killings are in fact such sexual in nature as they say in the profile though he may not be
00:53:51
having sex with them let's take this a step further when comparing it to somebody like Jack the Ripper and this
00:53:58
is this is also stuff that they stay in the profile of these killings as well look this is difficult terrain this is
00:54:06
an area that's not familiar to everyone and so what they want to point out here is that this guy he hunts and he kills
00:54:13
in an area where he is familiar and comfortable that's just like Jack the Ripper did back in the day the
00:54:21
difference here to me what I see is a situation where Jack the Ripper hated women the backpack murderer he hates
00:54:30
everyone right he just hates people and it seems more so like especially those that he considers to be different from
00:54:37
himself if we're going to go through this and believe that they are right in the sense
00:54:43
that he hunts and kills in an area that he is not only familiar but comfortable with mm-hmm
00:54:48
it's not a stretch to believe that he's not that he's you know from that area lives in that area and it was born and
00:54:55
raised in that area as well and we have some of our victims here are are foreign to the land right so then
00:55:02
you wonder if he just doesn't like foreigners or or if it makes it easier to I think
00:55:10
it would make it easier I mean think about it this way like they're not from this country and it's also of a time
00:55:17
period where communication isn't instantaneously right you're not going to be able to they're not texting people
00:55:25
right right so it's like somebody goes missing for a couple weeks it's gonna take a while for for that to get back to
00:55:32
their family if they're from Europe or whatever so maybe that's part of it or be but also maybe there's some
00:55:39
psychology to it where it's this guy this individual feels like he's stuck and he's stuck enough a place that he
00:55:46
can't get out of and and maybe he is someone intelligent maybe somewhat skilled and he and he feels kind of
00:55:53
trapped by um the society he lives in and these people are there there broma in the the world and they're seeing the
00:56:01
sights and they they have nowhere to be you know I mean no no destination well and on top of that to like what they
00:56:09
point out in Silence of the Lambs if the killer cannot see the villainy I'm going
00:56:18
to call you name dropper how many cases are you gonna name throughout this episode I got a few more of my notes
00:56:25
here but in the movie The Silence of the Lambs they point out that it is it's easier for the killer to kill the victim
00:56:35
if they don't see them as a person if they see them as an object and some of the victims being from a foreign land
00:56:42
maybe they don't talk the same as our offender maybe they don't look the exact same as our offender maybe that in a way
00:56:49
makes it easier throughout the interactions with those individuals to see them as an object
00:56:56
maybe even faster because the other thing you have to wonder too is are there people if he is in fact finding
00:57:04
the victims by way of hitchhiking are there people that he's let go for any number of reasons mm-hmm
00:57:11
throughout this I mean there's a lot to consider here there's a lot to think about
00:57:16
wrong another thing about that too is if you pick up hikers for example right like you're
00:57:24
just pulling up you can size up individuals a little bit right from inside your car while you're pulling up
00:57:30
but you take a scenario where you or maybe the the guy appears a little bit larger once you once he gets in the car
00:57:42
you know now you start going okay well this girl seems strong and this guy seems strong so maybe these are these
00:57:50
are people that he can then just take to their destination and move on you know I
00:57:56
mean so it is a way of you know and I would I would assume I get Kemper would do the same thing you now have them in
00:58:04
the car you can kind of size them up you can kind of see if they fit your likings
00:58:09
and if they don't you get you can just drop them off in the next exit right also one thing here captain that I want
00:58:18
to point out before we move on that that I think is fascinating I think that we have somebody that I would dub like a
00:58:26
choice of weapon killer but on top of that we have a choice of victim type killer right both male and female in
00:58:34
some of the cases and that's fascinating in a sense because we often do not see both genders killed by one offender so
00:58:44
this again may be pointing back to two offenders and then we have multiple weapons implements of murder gun knife
00:58:52
and rope sometimes sometimes all three are used right but again I think that points a lot of profilers to the idea
00:59:01
that there's more than one attacker I kind of view that as when we talk about the sexual gratification and the person
00:59:09
is getting right that if that is true if they are getting that and that's kind of
00:59:17
hard for me to wrap my head around it's probably hard for a lot of us to wrap our head around but and if you're if you
00:59:27
are wrapping your head around it you might want to go talk to somebody but uh the the thrill or the sensation is
00:59:35
probably different with gun different with knife I mean we have a scenario or where we know there was a knife involved
00:59:43
we know that was gun involved we know there was strangulation we don't know if there was rope or not right mm-hmm but
00:59:51
so those are three different acts and then also when you have the decapitation and I mean to be so gory but with this
01:00:02
decapitation we don't know if this was a machete or some kind of sword so it's almost like like you were saying like
01:00:10
this person is who knows he's gonna pick his victims and then he's gonna have all
01:00:15
these scenes with him because he wants to I think he wants to try killing in different manners and with different
01:00:22
instruments to see if there's different sexual gratification mm-hmm which is which reminds me of a Zodiac communique
01:00:32
the the one that where he states by fire by gun by knife by rope again we want to thank you guys so much
01:00:54
for joining us each week in the garage our buddies our pals thank you thank you thank you thank you
01:01:00
filthy animals a thousand thank yous a thousand filthy animals thank you so much and thank you for sharing on social
01:01:08
media join us back here in the garage tomorrow until then be good be kind don't live
01:01:13
[Music] [Applause]