00:00:00
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start? Thumbtac knows homes so you don't have
00:00:05
to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is.
00:00:11
With Thumbtac, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price
00:00:17
estimates, and read reviews all on the app. Download today. Hey, [Music] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever
00:01:03
you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always is a man who just
00:01:09
completed his latest shadow boxing battle script. Here is the captain. >> And I probably lost. It's good to be
00:01:15
seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. [Music]
00:01:23
We are extra juicy today here in the garage as we have a shelf full of juice drop hazy IPA by the great folks over at
00:01:33
Breen Ridge Brewery. This is a soft, lush, and intensely juicy hazy IPA that is bursting with hot
00:01:43
flavor. It's got some citrus for brightness and a little tang, plus a very light coconut flavor for some
00:01:51
sweetness. It's ABV 7% garage grade, four and a half, bottle caps out of five. And let's give some thanks and
00:01:59
praise to some of our good garage friends that are full of Tang themselves. First up, a cheers to Tony
00:02:05
in West Barnstable, which is on Cape Cod. Cheers, Tony. >> And a big we like your dip goes out to
00:02:11
Anna from Delaware, Ohio. >> Next up, an allaround cheers to the Rafferty family in Little Rock,
00:02:19
Arkansas. And a big tall cadence that's in the air goes out to Karen in Bloomington, Minnesota.
00:02:24
>> And last, but certainly not least, we have a longd distanceance. Cheers to Emma Holam. She is in a Denmark.
00:02:32
Everybody, we just mentioned they went to true crimegar.com and helped us out with this week's beer
00:02:39
fund for the beer run. And for that, we thank you. >> Yeah, BWR and beer run. Glad you said
00:02:45
that we were juicy because on the back of my panties it says juicy. If you need more True Crime Garage for your
00:02:51
earballs, check out our bonus content on Apple Podcast or on Patreon. And that's
00:02:58
enough of the business. All right, everybody. Gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.
00:03:15
[Music] We last left off discussing a possible connection to two more victims, but we
00:03:24
didn't get into the complexities of their case. Those victims were Carrie Anne Graham and Francine Marie Trimble,
00:03:32
who went missing together in December of 1978. Their decomposed bodies were discovered the following July about 80
00:03:40
miles north of where these two kids' families lived in Forestville, California. Their remains were
00:03:47
discovered together at a bottom of an embankment in a heavily overgrown wooded area beside a remote section of Highway
00:03:55
20. This is dozens of miles, just a dozen miles actually, outside of the city of Willlets. The bodies had been
00:04:02
placed in ducttaped garbage bags. So very different than some of our other crime scenes here, Captain, but
00:04:08
discarded like trash like the detectives had described with many of the other crime scenes and victims. Police believe
00:04:16
the victims had been killed elsewhere and then dumped in this remote location. Carrie Anne Graham would remain
00:04:22
unidentified until November of 2015. So reminder here, they go missing in in December of 78. They're found in July of
00:04:32
79. This is the complexities that I'm talking about with this case in particular here in the series of cases.
00:04:40
Kerianne Graham is not identified until November of 2015 when the identities of both girls were confirmed via DNA
00:04:48
profiling. Their bodies were too decomposed to determine a cause of death. No clothing was found at the
00:04:57
scene. So, it's presumed that the victims were nude when they were placed there. A single shell earring, however,
00:05:04
which would later be identified as belonging to Francine, was found at this scene. So, here's where this case is
00:05:13
very different from the others, as these two were not identified for so many years, for decades and decades. And in
00:05:22
fact, one part of this case that is incredibly aggravating is this particular case here, Carrie
00:05:30
Graham and Francine Trimmel. Because throughout the years, the victim's family and persons in the media, just
00:05:40
civilians in general, kept saying, "Hey, those bodies you guys found about 7 months after these two teenage girls go
00:05:49
missing are probably the two missing teenagers." Of course, yes, it's what did we say? 80 miles north of where they
00:05:58
lived, but we're also talking about what they knew at the time was the general age of the victims that were found and
00:06:08
that two victims were found together. There were not, it's not like there was an abundance of missing persons reports
00:06:14
where it's two persons going missing together of about the same age as your bodies,
00:06:21
>> right? And so everybody keeps saying, "Hey, it's probably those two girls. It's probably these two girls." Now,
00:06:27
it's the detectives are a little handcuffed here because the information that they were getting, the scientific
00:06:34
information that they were getting along the way was that, you know, at first they're like, "We can't confirm that
00:06:39
it's them. We can't confirm that it's them." But the scientific information they were getting was that no, one
00:06:46
victim was a female, but the other victim that we found was definitely a male. And then the belief became that it
00:06:56
was probably a brother and sister that had been found that were murdered, discarded of, and had been found. And so
00:07:05
all of these years, for all those years, no, no, no, no. It's not Carrie Graham.
00:07:10
No, no, no. It's not Francine Trimble. >> Right. Only to find out in 2015 that it
00:07:16
was in fact the same people that many people had believed it would have been for many, many years. The only people
00:07:23
that didn't believe it were law enforcement. And of course, they're getting bad information from the medical
00:07:28
examiner's office. A lot is lost to the crime scene anyway and to the passing of
00:07:34
time. Remember, time is the killer of evidence, not the killer of these two girls. We don't know the cause of death.
00:07:43
They're found in trash bags, which is different than our other scenes. But also, what kind of investigation could
00:07:49
have been had over those decades if we worked it with maybe the idea that we're going to leave the possibility open that
00:08:00
it is the two missing girls. I'm sure there was some arguments behind closed doors.
00:08:05
>> Arguments. There was arguments be behind closed doors and in front of closed doors on both sides of the doors, my
00:08:11
friend. So that single shell ears >> that single shell earring is discovered there, which is
00:08:17
>> calling card. >> We found a single earring at multiple scenes. And then well, here's here's
00:08:24
where I get infuriated here. So what county was this? Look, wait, let me see here, Captain. Oh, Mendescino County.
00:08:32
Okay. All right. You know when you know when folks say it was a herculean effort, an undertaking that requires
00:08:40
tremendous strength, immense effort, or you're faced with extreme difficulty, but you overcame it. this double
00:08:46
homicide investigation. While the modern detectives did a fine job and deserve an
00:08:50
add a boy or an add a girl because they did come to the right conclusion and they did finally figure out who these
00:08:57
victims were, but not the folks who worked this thing back in the day. They worked this thing about as hard as Fami
00:09:04
Malik falling asleep in the back office. >> Right? >> This is one where you just want to grab
00:09:09
the sheriff offic's public information officer and smack him over the head with a phone book and say, "No, no, no. go
00:09:16
back to the medical examiner and demand that they do another autopsy or better yet bring in a pathologist, another
00:09:23
pathologist, and take another look. Take a new look because these people are beating down our doors and will not
00:09:31
quiet our our phones telling us that they believe it's the two missing girls. Meanwhile, it was the entire time. And
00:09:40
while you did get it right in the end, what does it matter now? Your case still sits there open, unsolved. And how many
00:09:48
people could you have talked to in those decades? It's very complicated to talk to them now because either they moved
00:09:56
away, they don't remember, or they have passed away themselves. Well, when you're in the office and you ask Steve
00:10:02
to make you a 100 copies of of some report and he keeps handing you back 10 pages instead of 100 pages and then you
00:10:10
just do it yourself and you make the 100 copies. Steve didn't get it correct. Steve is still an [ __ ]
00:10:16
>> Steve Steve Arenino making copies. Although the initial autopsy report correctly determined that the victims
00:10:25
found had likely died in December of 1978. Okay. Did you hear what I just said? The
00:10:32
initial autopsy report determined that the two victims found who were determined to not be adults
00:10:43
died in the same month that two missing teenage the same month that the two when
00:10:49
the two missing teenagers disappeared, >> right? >> I mean, everything is telling you that
00:10:53
it's them. So, the autopsy >> leap >> the autopsy report concluded that the victims were those of a male and a
00:11:00
female. As I said, as such, investigators did not consider the possibility that the deedants may have
00:11:05
been Graham and Trimble and the age was wrong on one of the victims as well to further complicate making any actual
00:11:15
identification. On July 2nd, 1979, the skeletal remains of another probable victim of the Santa Rosa killer, known
00:11:25
only as Jane Doe, was discovered 100 yards from the location where Lorie Kursa's remains had been found 6 years
00:11:34
earlier in the 2,000 block of Kalisoga Road. It appeared that Jane Doe had been hog tied
00:11:45
with a Venetian blind cord and her left arm had been fractured in that process. According to authorities, they are
00:11:53
instantly and obviously making a connection to the manner in which Terresa Walsh had been found, bound,
00:12:03
ultimately leading to her death. This victim was then stuffed into a duffel bag before being crudely dumped into the
00:12:11
ravine. >> Yeah, but see there's connection. There's escalation. Are these cases
00:12:17
connected? Well, some of the victims are found in the nude, not in bags, and now
00:12:21
we got these other victims in bags, but there's a time period that elapse between killings. So, there's there's
00:12:30
there's somebody adapting. So dumping the body in in basically the same location, you go ding ding ding. There's
00:12:38
a connection some somehow some way. And it could just be it could be as simple as well this is the same killer or it
00:12:45
could be that there's a killer that has taken in this information and used this area to to dump their victim. But I lean
00:12:54
more towards the fact that it's just the same killer. >> Yeah. I we're talking about multiple
00:13:01
agencies here. So, I don't want to sound like I'm just pointing the finger at the
00:13:05
same people over and over again and saying, "I don't think you did a good job." >> Yeah. But the thing is is if they think
00:13:10
they did a good job, then why is the end result that we don't know who the killer
00:13:16
is? You know, I've spoke to a lot of detectives and a lot of people in law enforcement and most of the time they'll
00:13:23
say, "Hey, look, there's one or two that got away from me and those will bother me forever." And maybe it was because I
00:13:30
I made a misstep. Maybe it was because I was going through a divorce. Maybe I wasn't as focused as I needed to be.
00:13:37
Maybe I was a little burnt out. Yes, we're talking a little [ __ ] about these investigators, but I think they might be
00:13:44
willing to to raise their hand and and maybe talk [ __ ] about themselves during
00:13:48
this investigation. >> Well, and it's not even our words either. I mean, go back to our
00:13:53
examination of the Mine Hunter show. Bill Ted's character references it there. And then we did the work to
00:13:59
determine and confirm that the fictional characters information was in fact correct when he says that the state of
00:14:08
California has a lower clearance rate than on homicide cases than most of the United States.
00:14:16
And that is in fact true. Well, there's a reason for that. and he points out some reasons why that the killer in some
00:14:24
cases has a leg up on the opposition. But also we know that sometimes people just don't do great investigations.
00:14:34
Either they don't know how to, they're not allowed to by their by their superiors,
00:14:40
they're handcuffed for some reason or other, or they just didn't do a good job. And
00:14:48
look, so I I circled back to the Jane Doe and wanted to talk about the Jane Doe for good reason because we talked
00:14:54
about two Jane Does once labeled a John Doe and Jane Doe that went unidentified for decades and decades. And now we know
00:15:02
we have there this other unidentified female victim. She was thought to be between the ages of 16 and 20 years old.
00:15:13
fits the victimology that we're talking about as far as age goes. About 5 foot three inches tall with red auburn or
00:15:21
brown hair. No clothing was present at the crime scene just like many of the other crime scenes, but police found a
00:15:28
small metal candy tin with a picture of cherries on the front containing a pair of hard contact lenses presumably
00:15:38
belonging to the victim. Remember, this is how that they determined that the death very likely occurred between 1972
00:15:45
and 1974, which very neatly fits into the time frame of the other victims that we talked about. I'm bringing her up
00:15:54
again because one good work that they did, one good piece of work that they did do, not that they didn't do others,
00:16:01
just citing this one particular here, that in 2009 they did DNA testing to try to figure
00:16:09
out who she was. And and it's not crazy that a lot of people thought for many years that this Jane Doe very likely
00:16:17
could be the ever missing Janette Kamahle who has never been seen again but has always been tethered to this
00:16:27
series of murders. Even though her body's not been found, she's not been recovered alive and well. So they wanted
00:16:34
to one a figure out who the Jane Doe is and make sure is it Janette Kamahle or not. In 2009 we learn via DNA testing
00:16:46
that it was not Janette Kamahle. But we talked about strategies for your investigation back in 1974 and 75. Well
00:16:57
actually we were going back to 72 and 73. strategies for your investigation and your team in 72 and 73. Well,
00:17:05
talking about potential strategies as how you may work the case today in 2025 would be let's identify this Jane Doe.
00:17:14
Let's identify her because it plays into your investigation for many reasons. If you can identify her,
00:17:23
most people are killed by somebody that they know. that immediately is going to open up a suspect pool in this
00:17:32
particular murder victim's investigation. That pool may lead you to somebody that
00:17:39
killed some of these other women as well. And I sit here and I look at these cases, Captain, and I'm I see that I
00:17:48
believe that a lot of them are connected. I believe that a lot of them were probably carried out by the same
00:17:53
killer or killers. And I do believe that there's probably a one or two one or two
00:17:59
cases here that were not. Uh I pointed out one in particular earlier. And then I also think that there's a chance that
00:18:08
maybe a couple of these girls were killed by a by definition serial killer, just not by the same serial killer that
00:18:15
may have killed a handful of the other victims, >> which I think you'd be right to
00:18:19
speculate about. But I mean there was an argument for a long time that in the list case that there possibly was two
00:18:28
murderers >> because of where the bodies were found and those bodies uh were found couple
00:18:33
bodies grouped together and then the Gilgo 4 obviously grouped together and then you you're you're sitting there
00:18:40
again speculating is it >> one or two killers here working in the same operating in the same territory.
00:18:49
We talked about a lot about the potential victims that are presented by law enforcement and the FBI in 1975 as
00:18:58
victims pointing out that maybe this killer continued to kill after 72 and 73. There's possible links to a maybe an
00:19:07
earlier victim. So there is further question not just if these were all connected, but when did the murders
00:19:14
actually start? So, while the Santa Rosa murders weren't officially recognized as
00:19:20
having begun until 1972, there are sources out there that strongly suggest and consider another victim, Lisa
00:19:29
Michelle Smith, to have been an earlier victim of the Santa Rosa killer. Lisa, a
00:19:37
17-year-old Paluma resident, was hitchhiking on Hearn Avenue in Santa Rosa, California in the early morning
00:19:45
hours of March 16th, 1971 when she seemed to just poof vanish. In true 1970s manner, the teen was wearing
00:19:56
green bell bottoms, a white ruffled blouse, and white cowboy boots, and a dark navy peacacoat. and she was last
00:20:05
seen thumbming a ride. Her outfit's so distinctive that I believe the eyewitness reports of people coming
00:20:13
forward saying, "Hey, I've I saw somebody matching that description who was out hitchhiking
00:20:20
on that day when this young woman vanished. [Music] [Music] All right, we are back, mates.
00:20:48
I hope you are kicking nuts and sucking butts today. Talk hands in the air. Cheers to you, Colonel.
00:20:54
>> Cheers to you, Captain. I hope you are not doing any of those things. >> Depends on what kind of butts.
00:21:01
>> Her case is strange. You know, we all of them are strange obviously, but we talk
00:21:06
about a lot of times in these cases where you have an unidentified serial killer, serial offender of any nature,
00:21:14
that there is a high likelihood that someone there's someone out there that got away. And that's the person you want
00:21:22
to find. That's your witness that you need because they're going to have intimate knowledge about that serial
00:21:31
offender. Knowledge that and information that unfortunately the only other persons to come into that information
00:21:39
and that knowledge are not here to tell us about what they saw, what they heard,
00:21:45
what they witnessed, words spoken by the monster itself. We mentioned that this Lisa Smith vanished, right? She's
00:21:56
reported missing by her parents, never resurfaced. Around the same time, the media catches wind of this story about a
00:22:04
young woman who's like 20, 21, who was going by the name of Lisa Smith. Now, mind you, let's to be fair, very common
00:22:12
name. But this Lisa Smith was treated at a Nevada General Hospital. At the Nevada General
00:22:20
Hospital for injuries, including a skull fracture and severe cuts and bruises. This woman told medical personnel that
00:22:28
she had been assaulted at gunpoint by a motorist who picked her up, saying that the man had threatened to rape her, but
00:22:33
she had escaped by jumping out of the moving pickup truck, which caused likely caused or furthered her injuries she
00:22:42
already sustained during this assault. So, she's treated, but she doesn't stick around long enough for the authorities
00:22:51
to get there to interview her. There is an article that was in the Santa Rosa Press Democrat
00:22:59
in April of 1971 that reported that the woman treated at the hospital was the same Lisa Smith that was missing, the
00:23:07
17-year-old Palumatine. They've never been able to figure out was she in fact the same missing Lisa Smith. But in
00:23:15
2011, the same outlet that reported the teenage Lisa who had vanished in March of 71 was never found. Eventually,
00:23:24
they're saying that they're not actually the same person. How they were able how
00:23:29
they were able to confirm this or at least believe that they had enough information to release this report, I
00:23:35
don't know. I don't know because it seems to it seems to suggest that they were looking at it as if she could be
00:23:42
the same person but with that common name. Did this woman give the a wrong name on purpose?
00:23:50
Is she giving a wrong name due to the skull fracture? This is one of those stories that it's
00:23:56
like if we had more information, if she was in fact the same Lisa Smith, what could
00:24:02
she tell us about that asalent? And if she wasn't the Lisa Smith, is this whole part of the story just fictitious?
00:24:10
>> Right. But also, does she remember that this at all? >> Yeah. And where is this person? So, this
00:24:17
this was one of those angles that I I didn't know whether to include it or not, but rather than being accused of
00:24:24
not being thorough, I thought, let's put it in there. I don't think it's helpful
00:24:28
in any shape or form, but it is helpful than not. >> Thank you. It's and the part that I do
00:24:36
think is helpful is to point out that there was a victim who is very similar to a lot of our other victims who was
00:24:42
known to be hitchhiking was in fact last seen to be hitchhiking in March of 71 in
00:24:49
Santa Rosa. So we could have another victim. This could be the first victim in the series of dreadful murders that
00:24:58
took place after after this young woman went missing. Suspects, Captain, >> there's many.
00:25:04
>> You want to talk about suspects? The suspects are weird in this case because you can look at some of the suspects and
00:25:12
go, "Whoa, this clears a lot of things up." And really truly, the more you dig on each of these suspects, it doesn't it
00:25:21
it makes things all that more confusing. One thing you brought up to several of our beautiful listeners, you know, we
00:25:28
were sitting at Crime Con. We get we're always amazed because we have fun here in the garage
00:25:36
the best we can given the subject matter and showing sensitivity and respect for
00:25:40
the people of in these stories that deserve it. >> Yeah, occasionally you make some rude,
00:25:46
insensitive remarks, but other than that, we have a good time. So, we're sitting there at Crime Con at at our
00:25:52
booth and you know, we get the most brilliant, lovely, greatlooking listeners come up.
00:26:00
>> They smell good. >> They smell and we're and so we're just like, "Hey, you know, aren't we the
00:26:05
luckiest? We got the best audience, clearly the best audience. We saw other podcasters booths and tables, not such a
00:26:12
good >> audience sucked. Their audience sucked." And one thing that I heard, you know, we
00:26:18
get in these these conversations with the different listeners at Crime Con. And one thing conversation that I
00:26:26
overheard on your end a couple times was the because of our location where we were, you know, we're in Denver/ Aurora,
00:26:35
Colorado, and you had said, you know, maybe somebody should come up with the capital of true crime. What is the
00:26:44
capital of true crime? And that was an interesting question to ponder and a a interesting conversation to be had there
00:26:51
in Colorado because of all of the very infamous cases that have come out of over came out from that area over the
00:27:00
years. John Benet cases we've covered the Aurora theater shooter >> Coline >> Coline Hammer Slayer was from that area.
00:27:10
Uh, we've covered a lot, Chris Watts. We've covered a lot of cases from that area.
00:27:16
>> And at first I didn't know what you were talking about. And my I was like, well,
00:27:20
if we're talking about all kinds of, you know, just the multitude, the the overwhelming number of crimes, well, of
00:27:29
course, it's going to be New York or LA. But I think you could have this conversation here in regard to the Santa
00:27:36
Rosa murder case because here once we start digging through these suspects that have been openly discussed by many
00:27:44
other people, I might toss a couple into into the equation that haven't been so openly discussed. You sit here and you I
00:27:51
call this this wouldn't be the capital of true crime, but I call this like a confluence of killers because there's
00:27:58
been so many known and then in the case of the Zodiac unknown serial killers to have been linked potentially linked to
00:28:08
one of these cases or a lot of the cases that fall under the Santa Rosa murder cases. Let me throw one out real quick
00:28:15
here that seems to have been discussed at length but also discarded of. There's an infamous case called the Hillside
00:28:23
Stranglers case. These two, it was carried out by Kenneth Bianke and Angelo Bono. We've talked about them. We've
00:28:30
never covered the Hillside case in the garage, but we've talked a little bit about especially about Kenneth Bianke
00:28:36
when we were discussing the alphabet murders >> or the double initial loop. >> Cover them.
00:28:43
They were looked at or at least looked at by the true crime community. Let's say these were the diabolical cousins
00:28:51
that were responsible for the murders of 10 women between October 1977 and February of 1978.
00:28:58
They left their victims on hillsides, which is not unlike where we're finding some of our victims here
00:29:06
in this case. This general statement is they were ultimately ruled out. I don't know that they've been officially ruled
00:29:12
out in any real capacity, but it seems like most people move on rather quickly from the two of them because they appear
00:29:21
to not have been active at all until late 1977. I will say this though, it wouldn't
00:29:27
shock me one bit if Angelo Buono, who lived in California much longer than Kenneth Bianke did, right? It wouldn't
00:29:38
it wouldn't surprise me if he was actively killing earlier than we are currently aware of. This was a very evil
00:29:47
man. This was a I mean he was e he was evil to his family, to his to his children, to his
00:29:54
stepchildren, to his wife. He was just a a a devil, a demon of a man. I it's hard to call a
00:30:01
man. >> Kick his own dog. >> I don't want to go. I I have part of the reason that we've not discussed them
00:30:07
before or or examined their case is some of the things that this guy did to his family is just too and to with the
00:30:15
victims just very difficult to discuss. But it it sounds like the community has moved on from them. We do know Kenneth
00:30:22
Bianke was active without his cousin Angelo Buono. So, I I think it would be ignorant of us to for a second think
00:30:34
that Angelo didn't do horrific things without the help of of uh his cousin. Ted Bundy is one who is often discussed
00:30:44
in this case. We know that he traveled several states. He was a killer in multiple states and managed to remain
00:30:53
unidentified for for many for for many years. in some of the cases and we know that his preferred victim would be and
00:31:03
university and college students. >> Wouldn't he be quite young for these murders?
00:31:08
>> Not really. I mean, he he started killing in January of 1974. So, to to say he wasn't killing in 72 or 73
00:31:19
doesn't seem like much of a stretch. I think where the problem becomes is that it's a little more difficult to tie him
00:31:26
to the area, right? Cuz he was killing up in Washington state. But we do know that he did spend some time going to
00:31:35
college down in California and he had he had a girlfriend down there for a period of
00:31:42
time as well. So he would have traveled through this area. And then there are some that have suggested that at times
00:31:50
you know he his look changed and you it's very easy to see this on the internet uh with Ted Bundy but one of
00:31:58
the looks that he had at some point remember we have the bushyhaired man or the afrohaired
00:32:04
Caucasian male that he did have a look that wouldn't be a stretch from that general description. In fact, there are
00:32:13
reports that he was wearing his hair in that style 1972, which would have been the same year as those witness
00:32:19
statements. >> But didn't he also tell law enforcement that he committed murders in California?
00:32:25
>> Well, no. That's interesting. So, I'm glad you brought that up. Robert Keell,
00:32:31
who believed that Bundy refused to talk about California. Robert Keell believed that that Ted Bundy had killed at least
00:32:42
one person in California. Robert Keell and and it sounds like the FBI believed that there was reason to connect him to
00:32:49
these one or two or several of these Santa Rosa murders. And Keell says, you know, what what he believed Bundy was
00:32:58
doing was holding back information because he knew that it was a bartering piece to buy him more time to stay off
00:33:04
of buy him another day, week, or months from sitting down on the electric chair in Florida where he was ultimately
00:33:12
executed. Keell says that he said, "I want to talk about Florida or sorry, I want to talk about
00:33:20
California to Bundy." and that Bundy didn't want to talk about California. Now, why wouldn't Bundy want to talk
00:33:26
about California? One, a bartering piece that he might want to save for later. Two, California death penalty, which is
00:33:33
different than some of the other states that he had committed his murders in. There are persons that say
00:33:42
that he was ultimately ruled out because there are credit card records placing him in Washington state. Definitively
00:33:51
placing placing him in Washington state. So he would be many hours away from where these abductions and murders took
00:33:58
place. However, the here's what I want to say about Bundy because you could you could devote an entire two hours to just
00:34:06
Bundy's likelihood or not likelihood of being connected to one of these cases or
00:34:11
many of them. There are reasons to suggest that he could have done it. All right.
00:34:18
He did dispose of his victims in rural areas. This is a very similar victimology.
00:34:25
He did like getting his victims into his vehicle. Right. The credit card receipts the way
00:34:31
as as I have not been able to view them with these eyeballs that God gave me. What I've been told is while some will
00:34:41
argue that that rule him will rule him out, others will argue that no, that you can't say that because he was in
00:34:49
Washington state on a Thursday that he didn't kill a girl that was picked up and murdered on a Wednesday.
00:34:57
>> Right. And that would be accurate there. The time would allow for that. >> My other question would be, did he have
00:35:03
a girlfriend at the time and was he allowing them to use his credit card? And so, did he actually make those
00:35:11
purchases on the credit card or not? Well, and if you look up the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker murders case and Ted Bunny's
00:35:19
involvement on Wikipedia, the thing that irks me is when they say, "Well, he was
00:35:24
ruled out because they also believe that this individual lived in Santa Rosa and
00:35:32
that they believed it was somebody that worked as a male carrier or a public utility worker because they would have
00:35:39
been familiar with these remote rural locations. Well, guess what? These these killers,
00:35:48
they look for these locations. They get they get familiar with these locations. And look, the timing might be a little
00:35:55
bit off here. I'm simply I'm not saying that Bundy makes the best suspect. I'm simply saying that I think he makes a
00:36:03
decent suspect. And I had referenced Stanford University earlier. We have a girlfriend of his that graduated from
00:36:12
and left Washington in the middle of ' 68 and moved to San Francisco. So when visiting her, he would be traveling to
00:36:20
and from um and he also earned a scholarship uh to study Chinese at Stanford University
00:36:28
in ' 68. So, while that doesn't fit our timeline real well, it also what it does
00:36:33
point out is that he would have been going to this area, even living in this area at some point in his his life.
00:36:42
>> When he started killing is difficult to say. When the Santa Rosa murder started is
00:36:49
equally difficult to say. and he would have been 22, 23ish when he would have been in the San
00:37:00
Francisco area. >> And he also had the skills to get victims into his car. >> Yes. Unfortunately, that was one of his
00:37:10
serial killer superpowers that we all wish he did not possess. So, we've mentioned Zodiac, we've mentioned
00:37:16
Hillside Stranglers, and then Ted Bundy. How about one that is lesser known? Frederick Manali.
00:37:24
Now, that might if you're familiar with this case, you're familiar with that name. If you're new to this case, you
00:37:30
are new to that name. But police became aware of Frederick Manali in 1976. So, he emerged as a person of interest
00:37:41
in this case. He died in 1976. at the time he was a 41-year-old former Santa Rosa Junior College English
00:37:54
teacher. So, he's an English professor and creative writing instructor. He died in a head-on collision on Highway 12 on
00:38:03
August 24th, 1976. So his passing while shocking and accidental, he's still alive for
00:38:15
the general time period of when when these killings take place that we're looking at here,
00:38:20
>> right? His other tie is that he had been Wendy Allen's Kim Wendy Allen's professor Santa Rosa victim Kim Wendy
00:38:31
Allen's professor along among his belongings investigators discovered stomasistic drawings
00:38:40
portraying none other than his student Kim Allen. Inexplicably, he had drawn Kim alongside a feminized version of
00:38:48
himself that he called Freda. They also found obscene sketches of other young women depicting them all in compromising
00:38:57
and humiliating positions and at times with Manali himself depicted in this his sick artwork that he's making.
00:39:07
>> But these are just red flags. This is not a smoking gun. Additionally, and I'm going to limp in here with this
00:39:15
statement because I've seen this reported. I've seen it debunked and I can't confirm what is correct.
00:39:24
But it's often been reported that also among his belongings was a backpack that many believe belonged to Kim. So, we we
00:39:33
talked about when she went missing, one of the possessions she is believed to have on her person at the time was her
00:39:39
backpack. And there are people believe >> that's where your smoking gun would be.
00:39:44
>> Yes. Yes. Right. And I will agree with you that the while the artwork, if you
00:39:51
want to call it that, is not a smoking gun, I will agree 100% with that statement. What I want to really
00:39:58
emphasize though here is I I believe it's I believe that it's while while I don't think you could convict this guy
00:40:07
on that, I find it very very strange that this young >> start with that >> is found all tied up.
00:40:18
>> Yeah. >> In a very intricate, specific, unique way. Nobody knows who killed her. And
00:40:25
then here's somebody that has a direct connection to the victim and later in his possessions are found sedto
00:40:32
masticistic drawings where he has her all tied up in sexual positions. Yeah. The big thing for me would be the book
00:40:41
bag, but again I I tried to dive into this as much as I could. One report will say, "Yeah, it's
00:40:50
true." And other people say, "Well, he had backpacks, but we don't know if they belong to to Kim or not."
00:40:58
>> Yeah. So, police have said that they think that maybe he became obsessed with
00:41:02
her after she was found in that manner, after she had been killed. Look, we recommend, we are big proponents of um
00:41:10
therapy here uh in the garage, but uh I don't know how therapeutic it would be to
00:41:17
>> I I just I cannot. It's it's very difficult for me to dismiss this detail of a victim being found in such a unique
00:41:29
manner and then somebody going out of their way to create depictions of that. That is so
00:41:38
similar to BTK and the things that he did uh both on a piece of paper and inside the homes of
00:41:47
his victims. That is so similar to what a lot of other serial killers have done where they have to for whatever reason
00:41:56
that's part of that's part of their nature that some of them have to keep these fantasies alive and they they do
00:42:04
that by creating imagery of those victims and of those crimes. But then you'd have to prove that Kim Allen's
00:42:12
case was connected to the other ones and this possibly could be his one and only
00:42:18
victim. >> I agree. I agree with that. But that's why I've gone out of the way multiple
00:42:22
times in this four-part series to point out how uniquely this victim was tied up.
00:42:28
>> And I think another smoking gun would be in his artwork. Does it depict the same
00:42:34
uh positions? Does it is there anything that is another smoking gun as far as uh
00:42:41
because in a sense it's a it's a visual confession. Is there something he's confessing to in this this visual
00:42:49
artwork that these details only the killer would know about the details of the crime? When you
00:42:58
have two other victims that are tied up in a very similar manner, it's not a a far leap to say, "Well, these two or
00:43:07
three crimes, these two or three murders are probably connected." And you, yes, Captain, you're asking all the right
00:43:14
questions, but I'm not I cannot be so dismissive of this air quotes artwork. It's strange. It's very strange. It puts
00:43:23
him in a very very small percentile of life events. I mean it just the the numbers start to get smaller and smaller
00:43:31
and smaller of of if if he is just completely innocent of the number of people that you could pull into a room
00:43:39
and say that that yeah this girl happens to be killed happens to be killed in this manner and then somebody's spending
00:43:48
their time creating drawing depictions and imagery of this girl being tortured and tied up.
00:43:59
>> And like you said, it was one of his students, so there's your ruse to get her in the car. Hey, I'm your professor.
00:44:05
I I'll give you a ride. No big deal. Look, give me give me this evidence against this guy in a little bit of
00:44:12
time. I think I could get a conviction. In 2022, police started taking a look at serial
00:44:21
rapist Jack Alexander Boyin to an unsolved murder, 90 1997 murder of Michelle Vale in Soma County. Boyin, who
00:44:33
had died in prison the year before, had been serving time for a series of rapes and attempted murder. So, here's a guy
00:44:40
where you have a serial rapist who's being locked up forever. They committed convicted of one attempted murder, but
00:44:49
they didn't think this guy was in fact a murderer. After his death, they link his
00:44:55
DNA to DNA found at the 96 murder of Michelle Vale. So now you have a a very violent offender, very violent serial
00:45:05
offender who you now know has in fact murdered. He was in this area at this time. And so since 2022, authorities
00:45:14
have been exploring the possibility that he may be responsible for the Santa Rosa
00:45:19
murders or for some of the Santa Rosa murders. The victim here, Michelle, was found similar to our Santa Rosa victims,
00:45:31
or at least some of them. Her she was found nude along a rural road. I think something and I'd want to know this and
00:45:40
not to jump back to a suspect but this Frederick right was his ears pierced because like you said he has these
00:45:49
drawings depicting him as as a female. Did he have his ears pierced? Ears pierced on males in the late 60s early
00:46:00
70s would be abnormal. So, I'd wonder, does this killer have his ears pierced in it? Are they leaving the earring
00:46:10
behind, but taking the other earring and maybe as a souvenir or even wearing it later when they fantasize about these
00:46:18
crimes and making it a a forever connection to from killer to victim? That's intriguing because you would one
00:46:28
would believe you find these other earrings, the missing earring. It's like uh Cinderella's slipper. We've not found
00:46:36
those. What I would like to know further too is even if you don't find these with
00:46:41
the with Frederick here, but tell me tell us more about this artwork about these drawings. Was he drawing earrings?
00:46:51
Was that something that popped up in some of the his his demented artwork that he was putting together? That I
00:46:59
would like to know. Uh, but it would be the jewelry question, the earring question that would lead us to our next
00:47:06
talked about suspect. His name is Jim Morai. This is from the recent HBO Max documentary, The Truth
00:47:16
About Jim, where it was suggested that a high school vocational teacher and part-time
00:47:23
landscaper, Jim Morai, may have been responsible for some or most or all of the Santa Rosa slangs. Morai died of
00:47:31
cancer in 2008. He spent time with his family on an isolated ranch near Santa Rosa in Soma
00:47:39
County. Since the 1970s, Jim would have been intimately familiar with the secluded back roads
00:47:48
of this area. He had no, we should point out he had no criminal record, but family members were
00:47:57
shocked, disturbed, troubled, whatever. fill in the blank here when they found a
00:48:03
box containing odd mismatched jewelry including single earrings that were found in his belongings. So the jewelry
00:48:11
did not belong to any of the family members and the family members don't understand why he would have had this in
00:48:17
his possession. They don't understand what it means and so the jewelry here has led him to be a suspect in the eyes
00:48:25
of some a lot of it. The jewelry that was found would be described as such that would be have been worn by young
00:48:32
women, college age women, teenage girls in the 70s. So it fits the time period. It fits the victimology.
00:48:41
The part of this though that we need to keep in mind too is with the Jim Morai stuff. One problem with the story is
00:48:48
that it's similar to stories about the Zodiac, right? Everybody in California's got a stepdad or an uncle that was the
00:48:55
Zodiac. and whatever whatever item that they found in a garage or a basement at some point that told them that wait hold
00:49:05
on this guy is probably the Zodiac that item always seems to have vanished by the time that there's
00:49:13
there's the proper people to document this potential evidence. And just like that, the box of jewelry does not exist
00:49:24
to this day. If it does, it's not been found. It wasn't shown in the documentary TR, The Truth About Jim. His
00:49:31
family does raise some very interesting questions about him. It's while it sounds like he was not a very nice guy,
00:49:37
they also point out that similar to the Zodiac documentary or the I don't know if we should call it a Zodiac
00:49:45
documentary, it was more of a Arthur Lee Allen documentary on Netflix, >> right? very similar in the truth about
00:49:54
Jim to the Arthur Lee Allen Netflix documentary is that family members, young family members saying, "Well, he
00:50:03
would drive out to these locations where they had previously found a body or in some cases my memory says that we drove
00:50:10
to a location where a body was later found." So, there's a lot of very speculative,
00:50:16
unconfirmed, uncorroborated speculation about why Jim Morai could have been involved in some or all of the
00:50:28
murders here. I to me, I watched the documentary. I thought it was interesting. I thought that it did point
00:50:36
out that he was a bad dude. There was abuse. It sounds like Morai was not only a bully, but very much abusive towards
00:50:44
women and young uh maybe even young girls. I don't have any reason to push back on those claims, but
00:50:54
to say he was a serial killer, he's not here to defend himself. And I had not heard the name. I don't think most had
00:51:00
heard or nor considered that name until the documentary came out. They were working with the Soma County Sheriff's
00:51:08
Office in August of 2022 with the family to submit his DNA to try to come to some kind of conclusion here.
00:51:19
If if we are doing that, then that makes me wonder how much DNA do we have here?
00:51:24
Do we have enough that we can identify the killer or at least identify the killer in one of these cases? because
00:51:31
there still seems to be some lowhanging fruit, some meat on the bone with with this investigation, right? Identify your
00:51:39
Jane Doe. That will help further your investigation. If there is DNA in one of these cases, even if it's just one of
00:51:47
these cases, let's do let's hand it off to a a privatized lab. Work it. Work the familial DNA that
00:51:57
you can get from that. find the family tree and let's solve at least one of these damn things.
00:52:02
>> Yeah. The other problem too is the time period. We we live in a disposable economy and a lot of the stuff that we
00:52:11
buy is not everlasting and and this gym probably was raised by somebody that went through the Great Depression. So
00:52:20
you have, you know, that would be my big question too is how much stuff was he holding on to? Did he have boxes of old
00:52:29
tools? Did he have boxes of old screws and nails? And and did was he just a collector of things? Did he think,
00:52:38
"Well, these have some value, so I'm not going to just throw them away even though I'm not going to use them."
00:52:45
>> Yeah. So, some of the jewelry that was found was as again, we're going off of
00:52:50
descriptions here because it doesn't nobody can find it today. But one description, there are many that say
00:52:57
that this exactly matches some missing jewelry that was worn by one of the victims, Marine Sterling.
00:53:04
But again, it's it's all hearsay until you produce the physical item. Another part of the Morai story is that the man
00:53:13
seen at the skating rink, which Marine Sterling was the victim, one of the skating rink victims, ice rink victims.
00:53:20
Remember the witness that saw the two victims talking to an older man and and may have even left with that man. This
00:53:28
witness in 2022 or 2021 when shown a picture of Jim Morai from 1972. What he you know a
00:53:38
picture of him in 1972 that that witness said it could be Jim Morai that I saw that day. Now you're being asked that
00:53:46
question nearly 50 years later, but they didn't jump out of their seat and go absolutely not. So it is worth and
00:53:54
interesting to explore. I do want to throw a bit of a caveat into the equation here though, Captain, because
00:54:02
it's my understanding that that same witness years prior when shown a picture of what Ted Bundy looked like in 1972
00:54:11
said the same thing. it that guy kind of looks like the guy. >> Well, all white guys look the same.
00:54:18
>> But also didn't jump out of their chair and say absolutely not, >> right? I don't want to I don't want to
00:54:24
put too much weight to that eyewitness's statement because there's a chance if you showed I appreciate the witness's
00:54:32
honesty is what I'm trying to say here is it sounds like if you would have shown this witness a picture of a lot of
00:54:38
people that they would probably say the same thing that can't say absolutely yes
00:54:44
but I definitely won't say absolutely no. >> Yeah, I think this case is absolutely
00:54:49
fascinating. The problem is with all these sus suspects, I think there's a few details that you go, I could I could
00:54:57
pin some of these crimes on this suspect, but then again, it goes back to is one of these crimes a Bundy crime? Is
00:55:06
the other crime What's the problem with Jim suspect? Or are all these connected?
00:55:13
Well, and let me toss out a couple names that that aren't that are not regularly
00:55:18
discussed with the Santa Rosa case. As interesting as the names are that we've already discussed, I one that I I that
00:55:27
popped into my head immediately after going through a lot of the information was Terry Ped Rasmusen.
00:55:35
So Rasmusen this wow we're going way back in the garage archives right now. Rasmusen
00:55:45
was many many years after the fact believed to be the perpetrator of the Bear Brook murders which took place in
00:55:56
1978 in Allenstown, New Hampshire. I think we called it bodies in the barrel or barrel
00:56:03
bodies, something of that nature. But this was the it it almost looked like a family of females were found in barrels
00:56:11
and had been placed in the woods in Bear Brook State Park in Allenstown, New Hampshire.
00:56:18
>> Yeah. >> Many many years before they were found or or at least some period of time
00:56:23
before they were found, obviously. So it they were found in 1985. A second barrel was found in 2000 about
00:56:32
a hundred yards away from the first location. It took many years to develop the identity of some of the victims that
00:56:40
were found in the these barrels. What we ultimately learn is that one of these victims was a biological daughter to the
00:56:49
man I just said his name, Terry Peter Resmus. So, it's been determined or believed
00:56:57
that that very likely he killed them, disposed of them in these barrels, left them, but he was never charged in court,
00:57:04
never tried in court for never charged or never tried in court for these murders. Now, we do know that he married
00:57:13
Ensun Jun in 1999. This is much closer to the crimes that we're talking about today.
00:57:22
He plead guilty to the surprise of the court in Contraosta County for this murder. So this was his girlfriend at
00:57:32
the time of of her death and he was living under a different name of Larry Vanner. We would almost need a separate
00:57:40
episode to go through all of his aliases. He lived under Bob Evans, under the name of Bob Evans, Lawrence William
00:57:47
Vanner, Gerald Mockerman. He he had many aliases and he lived in many different areas. In fact, he's been tied to
00:57:55
several crimes, several murders after his death. I don't see anywhere where he's been talked about as being an
00:58:05
option here, but if you take a look at this guy in his 2002 mug shot and then you take a look at some pictures that we
00:58:16
have of him from his earlier life, it's not difficult to believe that he may have looked similar to the description
00:58:24
provided to us by the witness saying that they saw a victim. with a afrohaired Caucasian male. The reason why I bring
00:58:36
him up is not only did he move around, but that would be too easy, right? It' be too easily convenient to say, "Oh,
00:58:43
well, he moved around, so it must have been him." No, he actually has direct ties to you can place him in and around
00:58:53
Redwood, California. And we know that he was there in the late60s and at times in the early
00:59:02
70s and he worked as an electrician. And we talked about how it was openly speculated by law enforcement that well
00:59:10
maybe this the the killer is some kind of utility worker that has the ability to be on the road and be by themselves
00:59:17
for large portions of their day and their week. Yeah. But I I also find this I mean I find this very fascinating cuz
00:59:26
some of these killers will have these relationships and they have friends and and uh families and they and they never
00:59:34
kill or even, you know, do anything criminal to these individuals, but then they kill strangers.
00:59:42
And I don't even necessarily think that they hold a human life uh in more regards. Oh, this is my my uh daughter
00:59:52
or this is my wife, so therefore her life is more important. I don't even know if that's the case all the time.
00:59:59
But then I think there are some killers that are they're going to kill, but it's just
01:00:06
people that they are connected to as opposed to killing strangers. >> Absolutely. No, I agree with that
01:00:14
1,000%. But I would also my push back on that would be that just being capable of killing in the first
01:00:25
place separates you from a large portion of the population. So So your your pool starts to shrink
01:00:33
immensely. We know he was, look, Redwood City, Redwood City is just south of San
01:00:39
Francisco. And so he we know that he was in this area from the late60s until 1975.
01:00:48
So, while while there's nothing other than putting a known serial killer in the area at the time for this guy,
01:00:59
I don't I'm not trying to make a hard press that this is the dude. But to my credit,
01:01:06
what I think should be pointed out is this is no different than what many others have done with several other
01:01:12
serial killers is say, "Hey, they were in this area at this time and we can prove it. We know it to be true, so they
01:01:21
should have some consideration into the equation." I'm actually surprised that he's not
01:01:29
discussed because with some of these serial killers, known serial killers, um they are openly discussed just simply
01:01:38
because we know they have the ability to kill. We know that they killed female victims and we know that they were in
01:01:45
the area or had ties to the area. He checks every box that I just said. >> Yeah. And I but I think the problem
01:01:51
again with this case is are they connected? And I think sometimes people are ruling out these good suspects
01:01:58
because they're looking at all the cases and like the totality of it all and going, "Well, I'm going to rule this
01:02:05
suspect out because he's he's not a great fit for this other crime." That's why you That's why I I suggest you don't
01:02:15
investigate them as such. It that only troubles your investigation. you investigate them independently of one
01:02:24
another, especially when you've openly speculated that you cannot 100% connect them. So, investigate them independently
01:02:34
of one another. Why? Because that's what you you do on the on a regular basis. That's what you do on the daily. You
01:02:40
investigate a single homicide. That's what you and your team knows how to do. Another person that is not regularly
01:02:49
talked about here is Joseph D'Angelo also aka the Golden State Killer Ears ons the original nightstalker. I mean,
01:03:02
how many names? He's got a lot of the Vans, the Vicilia ransacker, the East Area Rapist, East
01:03:09
Side rapist, East Bay rapist, Creek Bed Killer, Diamond Knock Killer, original Nightstalker, Ears on Golden State
01:03:16
Killer. This guy's got no shortage of monikers. He too in the area at the time. Yes, this would have been before
01:03:26
he started killing, but would like to point out here that this would have been you want to they often will talk about
01:03:34
stressors. Well, he became he became engaged to a nursing student, Bonnie Cwell, in May of 1970. The relationship
01:03:45
ended in 1971. There are people that say that the Santa Rosa murder started in ' 71. Everybody
01:03:52
seems to agree that they started in 72 in February with the abduction of the two girls at the ice rink. Again,
01:04:02
putting a very dangerous man, a known serial killer in the area at the same time. Not difficult to do. There is a
01:04:13
book out there and I want to be clear here, I've not had the opportunity to read it and I was hoping to get a chance
01:04:20
to read it before we put together these episodes, but I did not. And the reason why I had
01:04:28
to put it I had to prior prioritize other resources in front of this one because I'm
01:04:36
uncertain if she was attempting to make the connection. But there's a book out there called What If?
01:04:45
The Golden State Killer Zodiac Solved: The Shocking True Story of Evil 58 years after freedom. This is
01:04:54
by Anne Penn. This book came out a few years ago, maybe five years ago. But in the book, I and I can I can speak to
01:05:03
what the book is talking about. One, just based off of the title, and two, based off of I've I've read interviews
01:05:09
that she's done. I've read information that she's put out outside of this book, and I've listened to interviews that
01:05:14
she's done. She is making a compelling argument that Joseph D'Angelo and the Zodiac Killer are one and the same. She
01:05:23
is making a compelling argument that Joseph D'Angelo committed other murders outside of the ones that we know he has
01:05:32
committed. I think she makes a strong argument. I'm not willing to say that D'Angelo was the Zodiac. Not willing to
01:05:39
say that he was the Santa Rosa killer, but I think that it's worth listening to. And that's one of the reasons why I
01:05:46
wanted to read that book. a lot of her statements and a lot of her findings, she researched this thing for many, many
01:05:54
years. In fact, to the point that when D'Angelo was named after his arrest as the Golden State killer, she was saying,
01:06:04
"All right, well, they're going to be testing the Zodiac DNA. When when do we find out? When are we
01:06:11
going to hear that D'Angelo was the Zodiac?" So please, again, a lot of times things that make their way onto
01:06:17
the show, they people will think that they are in fact our theories that we are pushing. This is not one that I'm
01:06:24
pushing. This is one that I find to be interesting and I think it would be >> right
01:06:28
>> remiss of many if they were just so quick to dismiss it because the Zodiac has never been identified. There's a lot
01:06:35
of interesting suspects in the Zodiac case and the Santa Rosa murderer has never been identified. So, and until
01:06:42
that happens, I think everything's on the table and every one of these guys for different arguments and for
01:06:50
sometimes the same argument make for very good suspects. Now, that will lead us to what we started off
01:06:58
talking about early on in this case. Something that law enforcement was openly speculating about in 1973,7475,
01:07:08
and even afterward. People that investigated these homicides have said to the media that there's a
01:07:16
chance that the Zodiac may be responsible for some or all of the Santa Rosa cases. What makes it even more
01:07:23
interesting is if you go beyond that. So you can argue that's the 30,000 ft view.
01:07:30
Zoom in my friends. You can look at one individual in particular. His name Arthur Lee Allen. And this this is the
01:07:38
angle that fascinates me to no end with this particular case. You could look at this case and say the Zodiac is the
01:07:47
Santa Rosa murder. You could look at this case and maybe say Arthur Lee Allen is the Zodiac and the Zodiac is the
01:07:55
Santa Rosa murder. I think you could also look at some of the details in Arthur Lee Allen's life, the Zodiac
01:08:04
series, the Santa Rosa series, and also say there's a chance that Arthur Lee Allen was not the Zodiac, but was the
01:08:12
Santa Rosa murderer or responsible for some of the Santa Rosa cases. I want that to be clear because I I I've seen a
01:08:22
lot of people that are so quick to dismiss him in these homicides by saying, "Well, no, no, no." No way was
01:08:30
he the Zodiac. I I actually don't like him that much for the Zodiac case. I think he's a good suspect. I think he
01:08:38
stays on the table. He should remain on the table until we solve that. He's a good suspect for many reasons that other
01:08:44
people have pointed out. Well, and I think if you watch the Netflix series, The Zodiac Speaking, it's hard to walk
01:08:52
away from that and not go there, there's something here. >> Well, exactly. I mean, it would be
01:08:59
difficult to walk away from the information we know about Arthur Lee Allen without it being pointed out to us
01:09:06
with that documentary and say there there may be something here. A lot of it is the timeline of things in the Zodiac
01:09:13
series lines up with Arthur Lee Allen's timeline. I think the Santa Rosa case timeline
01:09:20
lines up even better with Arthur Lee Allen than the Zodiac case does. Not willing to say that it is him, but I
01:09:29
think that when you take a look at it that there's a lot of interesting reasons why he has been discussed over
01:09:36
these years. And maybe it's simply because the investigators and detectives and the sheriff
01:09:43
Don Strippled it into existence back in the early 70s, but it's still discussed to this day.
01:09:52
Now, the investigators and detectives and sheriffs that took over this case years after word once Arthur Lee Allen's
01:10:03
name came about as being potential suspect for the Zodiac cases. They openly said they told the media that
01:10:15
Arthur Lee Allen is not their killer. He they they didn't give great reason how they or why they believe that he wasn't
01:10:24
their killer, but their statement was it was pretty strong simply saying to the media, Arthur Lee
01:10:34
Allen is not the Zodiac. Arthur Lee Allen is not our killer. Arthur Lee Allen is nothing but a pedophile and
01:10:42
he's he's neither of these serial killers. >> Right. That that was their stance on
01:10:46
Arthur Lee Allen. Now, we also need to to keep in mind that Robert Gaymith's book, The Zodiac Unmasked, while
01:10:57
entertaining and a very good book, just like the Truth About Jim documentary, and just like the Netflix Arthur Lee
01:11:06
Allen doc documentary, all three very entertaining. The two documentaries very speculative,
01:11:14
not a lot of hardcore facts and evidence. Gray Smith's book. There have been details in his book that have been that
01:11:22
have just been outright debunked, proven to be wrong, not factual, incorrect. Did
01:11:29
he make them up? I don't know. Did he lie? We don't know. But it was determined with some of the details on
01:11:37
him building his case against Arthur Lee Allen that some of that information just
01:11:41
simply wasn't correct. Captain, this case is endlessly fascinating. One from the very genesis of the case.
01:11:52
We don't know when it started. We don't know when this series of murders started, who is responsible, how
01:11:58
many people are responsible, but then you have this confluence of killers that all have ties to this area, ties to the
01:12:06
time period, and shared similar victimology in many of these cases. I think that this is a case to me, the
01:12:16
thing I loved about the truth about Jim documentary was not that it sold me that
01:12:23
Jim is the killer, more so that it I think that while it didn't examine these cases in great detail, it opened my eyes
01:12:33
to this series of murders that have gone unsolved for so long that I wasn't so so
01:12:40
quite aware of. I had some awareness of the case, but the documentary made me want to further dig in and have better
01:12:48
understanding of these cases, connected or not. And after reviewing them, it appears to me that some of these, it
01:12:55
would be very difficult to say that they're not connected. Some of these cases are absolutely I in my humble
01:13:02
garage opinion connected. And a reminder, obviously this case, these homicides are still open, still an open
01:13:11
investigation, and time is running out for these cases. Anybody that has any information at all,
01:13:18
the Soma County Sheriff's Office is still investigating. Please contact their cold case unit. That phone number
01:13:25
is 707-5652727 or you can reach out at [email protected]. or [Music] want to thank everybody for joining us
01:13:48
here in the garage for this four-part series. Thanks for telling your mother. Thanks for telling your brother. It
01:13:54
really does go a long way to supporting the show so we can continue to do deep dives into these cases. Until next week,
01:14:03
be good, be kind, and don't winner. [Music]