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[Music] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
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for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always is a man whose future is so bright that he has to wear
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sunglasses. Here is the captain. >> That's right, TCG sunglasses. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks
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for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. [Music] This week we are featuring the one and
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only Hazy IPA by the adventurous brewers over at Great Divide Brewing Company. Hazy IPA is a juicy and balanced mix of
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citrus hops that bring out the aromatic characteristics of papaya and mango and finishes with a hint of ripe
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strawberries. ABV 6.2% garage grade four out of five bottle caps. And let's give
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some thanks, some praise, some cheers to our good garage friends for helping us fill up the old garage fridge. First up,
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a cheers to Caroline Brian from Benicia, California. >> And a big we like your trip goes out to
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Nat in Darby, UK. >> Here's a cheers to Christa in Skenctity, New York. And last, but certainly not
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least, this garage friend says, "Let's do a shout out to my pups. Adopt don't shop." Cheers to Leila, Stanley, and
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Winston from Glen View, Illinois. Milk bones all around. Thank you to everyone for contributing to this week's beer
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fund. >> Yeah, milk bones in the air. BW are you in? Beer run. You need more true crime
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garage for your ear balls. Yes, you do. Check out our show off the record on Patreon or Apple Podcast. You just hit
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subscribe and there you go. Colonel, that's enough of the business. All right, everybody. Gather around, grab a
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chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. Episode [Music] 4 opens with the not so trusty ADT
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man creeping around inside someone's home. He turns the corner and is met with the homeowner who is busy doing
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dishes at the kitchen sink. At this point, we can infer that the ADT serviceman is becoming BTK or already
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has submitted to some of his deepseated and guarded urges of binding, torturing,
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and killing a victim or victims, but he is actually working in his ADT capacity during this scene, and he's not setting
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up to commit a murder. >> Well, I think that's what they're trying to imply is, oh, we know this guy is a
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murderer. We know he's planning out murders. Is he going to kill this woman? And then we find out, nope. He's doing
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his ADT job and telling her how he would secure the house. >> Yeah. And what's what's interesting here
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too is the methods that Dennis Rder would ultimately use, right? He would he would use a lot of his time that he was
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supposed to be studying. Remember, he was continuing his education. He would use that time to be away from his wife
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and say that he's studying or he's going to the library, that he was at the college campus, but a lot of those times
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he's out trolling and stalking victims or or future projects as he called them. And then his capacity as the ADT man
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allows him into the homes of many people day after day where he is getting used to the layout of people's homes. He's
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getting used to being inside of their homes. And we know that with the exception of his first murders, a lot of
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the times he was breaking into the homes when the victim would be gone and staying and waiting for them to return
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home and then intercept them, ambush them when they come through the front door. Back on the road, Bill Tench and
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Holden Ford exit their very cool, dark gray 1971 Plymouth satellite. They are in Richmond, Virginia to interview
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serial killer Monty Rissell. They are discussing how Monty killed the victims with tench quizzing Holden Ford prior to
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going in. Russell likely had severe abandonment issues and a deep hatred for women. His mother was married and
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divorced twice by the time he was 12. His biological father left the home when Russell was seven. Then the family moved
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from his hometown of Wellington, Kansas. The family was moving around. This is when Russell was already robbing and
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raping from the ages of 14 to 17. So once again here, Captain, this is another real life killer, real life
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serial killer that is depicted in the series. A little bit more about his crimes. on August 4th, 1976, Monty
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Rissell, who later says that he was angry with his ex-girlfriend after seeing her with another man. He says
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that he spotted 26-year-old Aurora Marina Gabbor, who was living in the same apartment complex as Russell on
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Armistead Street in Alexandria, Virginia. Rristle claimed he grew angry with her after she allowed him to have
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sex with her. Again, these are his words. Remember, these these guys lie about just about everything,
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>> right? >> And she made it seem like she enjoyed it. So, he drowned her in a nearby
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ravine. Later, Rissell plead guilty to five murders. Three of his victims were stabbed to drown. He became eligible for
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parole in 1995 and since then he has received an annual parole review every November and thankfully each time he has
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been denied. >> Isn't this the serial killer that asked them for Big Red? >> Yes, he is. And I like Tench's
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straightforward approach to the interview. He tells Russell that they are trying to figure out why people like
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Rristle do what they do. Rristle says he would like to know as well. This is this
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is intriguing too here captain because this is something that we find with a lot of these types saying we want to
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figure out why you do what you do and replying yeah I would like to know as well and when we spoke with John Douglas
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that was a question I had asked him was is it true that your findings are that these guys want to talk to you just as
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much as you want to talk to them because some of them don't understand why they are are the way that they are.
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>> Well, you have to remember when Dmer is caught and the FBI is talking to him,
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they they're they basically tell him, you know, you can make a deal with us, you can get something in return. And all
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he asks for is, can you help me figure out why I am the way I am? >> Well, to this in the scene here, Russell
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asks the agents if they're going to try to find a cure. He tells them that he's not really interested in talking with
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the feds and Tench fires up a dog. This is cigarette number 18 in series 1, season 1. And Tench threatens to just
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leave. Then Russell describes the first murder for the road agents. So he wants to talk even though he claims that he
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doesn't. Rissell says that he stabbed the second victim because after he had abducted her, she would not shut up. But
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he let one victim go because when she was upset after he abducted her, she explained that her father recently died
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of cancer. This seemed to touch or affect him in a way that he chose to let her go. After this, the road agents
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get into a little tiff. Once back in the car, Bill Tench is pointing out how Rristle is an Olympic class liar. After
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a surprise car accident, the boys are at a bar. It looks like they are taking down some whisies. Neat. Tench is
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smoking cigarette number 19. Bill starts telling Holden that he and his wife Nancy adopted a kid. In real life,
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Robert Wrestler had three kids, none that were adopted. Back at the office, the agents are
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talking with Dr. Wendy Carr about Monty Russell. They stumble into a conversation about triggers, stresses,
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and control. Dr. Carr is explaining that these men, what they are experiencing is
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normal. However, they process it different. The way that they process their life experiences is not normal.
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Then we see Bill Tench on the front porch of his home smoking where he tries to hug his son before leaving the house
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with Holden. They go back to see Monty Bristle once again. This time they bring, you nailed it, Captain Big Red
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soda with them as he had requested. Russell talks about his upbringing, the divorce, the moving around, physical
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abuse. He says that no one wanted him. They learned that Russell sees himself as the real victim here. And we find
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that time and time again with some of these serial killers that some of them they see themselves as victims and then
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they victimize people in their adult life. Now it's back to roadtime teaching and the agents are in Altuna,
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Pennsylvania where we hear motive means and opportunity. What plus y equals who?
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This is all part of their teachings. Outside of the police station, Tench fires up a dog. Cigarette number 21. The
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agents are approached by an officer. He explained that he had recovered a victim. So, this victim is Beverly Jean
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Shaw, age 22. The police think that the victim was stored somewhere before later
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being found in the local dump. The victim's wrists were removed postmortem. Now, we wanted to figure out if this was
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a real case. This is one of those ones here, Captain, that's a little bit more difficult to determine if it's real, but
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it certainly has the the markings of being potentially real or connected to some real cases. So, I found this from
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refinery29.com and it says, "According to a 1988 article in the Altuna Mir on June 2nd,
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1979, a 22year-old woman named Betty Jean Shade had a fight with her live-in boyfriend, Charles Butch Salt. She was
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planning on leaving him. Still, she went on a drive with Salt, his brother, Michael, and his and sister Catherine.
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Salt and Shade went on a walk so they could talk. But when they didn't return, Catherine
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went searching for her brother and found him beating Shade to death. Shade died of head and stab wounds. The trio then
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transported Shade's body to the garbage dump 3 days after the killing. The name Beverly Jean may also be in regard to a
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murder that took place in Dallas, potentially Dallas, Texas in 1970. This is Billy Jean Hope was the victim.
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Mother of three and popular suburban housewife. She was murdered in her large mansion. The crime to this date remains
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unsolved. Though new information, which emerged in 2016, brought in another suspect. This was Beverly Jean's
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exbroin-law. For those that have watched the series and watched this particular episode and
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as this case plays out for the agents on Minehunter, you can see the similarities
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in the two cases that we just discussed. Holden explains to the Altuna cops that
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they need to focus on what they know about the victim and they deliver a short vague profile saying white male
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loner who hunts at night who will likely kill again. But this also shows how local law enforcement is treating the
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locals with too much respect. They're not treating this as a homicide investigation. They're almost pampering
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some of these individuals that should be suspects. >> Yeah. And this with this short vague
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profile, I think what this is meant to do on the show is to show the agents their lack of experience at this time,
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right? that they're not seasoned profilers by this time. Really, what they're doing is white male loner who
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who hunts at night is super vague obviously, but it also would just fall into with what little they know at the
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time. And we know that the way that this is going to play out does not involve someone who's out hunting for a victim
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at night. Yeah, I agree with you and also disagree with you because yes, inexperienced when it comes to profiling
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the killer that they're looking for, but I I think this shows like before the case when when Holden says, "Hey, we're
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in the dark." Well, they're not in the dark anymore. Maybe they're not completely in the light, but that door
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has cracked open. And you see that their experience and basically the path of their thought ways are coming through in
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the interrogation of this case during the show and shows that they're a couple steps ahead of where they were in for in
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previous investigations. And this reminds me with some of the talks we've done with serial killer experts and they
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talk about a lot of the different myths that surround serial killers and you hear it there. White male loner who
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hunts at night. In fact, there's a there's a case where out in New Jersey, the Garden State Parkway murders, the
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two women were killed in the early morning hours, and police there said that one of the detectives said it
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couldn't be the work of a serial killer. Meanwhile, this is still unsolved. It has the markings of a serial killer. We
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can't prove that because we don't know who did it, but the detective said it can't be. It's not a serial killer
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because a serial killer would have killed them at night and well they sorry detective but they kill any time of day.
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Back to the show. They go out to this dump site where Holden says that the victim was disposed of just like a piece
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of trash. And unfortunately we've seen that in so many cases that we've covered here in the garage. The officer says
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folks loved Beverly Jean. At the body recovery site, the agents want to they say they want to talk to
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the man who found the body. They do go to this man. They talk with him. He looks shady. He has a record. He tells
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the agents that he waited until the next morning to report finding the body. He says part of that was because he does
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have a police record and he thought they would be looking at him. Holden intent talking about the case and the likely
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perpetrator. It looks like Holden Ford here is thinking that this is probably the work of a sequence
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killer. That's what they're calling serial killers before they coin the term. >> Right. This would go along with the
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white male loner who hunts at night. But then Bill Tench is reminding Holden that
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nine times out of ten it's the husband or boyfriend. It's not a serial killer. Back at the office, the agents are
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talking with Dr. Wendy Carr. They start to getting into figuring out the differences between organized and
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disorganized killers. And the episode ends with the agents getting a stern talking to by the boss man at the
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bureau. And then he tells them that Congress is interested in their research and they are getting $385,000
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in funding for their research. So ladies and gentlemen, let the mind hunting begin.
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>> Cha-ching. >> Episode five opens up at Park City, Kansas. We see our ADT serviceman off
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duty, out of uniform, mailing a letter with very thick black gloves on. This, of course, we know to be true, right? We
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know that BTK, aka the ADT serviceman, did communicate with both the local news and police. He sent letters to both
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newspaper and television outlets. One of the letters, and we went through a lot of this in our BTK coverage here,
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but one of the letters was the I did it letter, which arrived in October of 1974
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when Raider sent the I did it letter to the Witchita Eagle using the pseudonym BTK, taking responsibility for the Otto
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murders and offering details about the crime not previously made public. Series 1 is supposed to start off and take
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place mostly in 1977, but Raider, we know Raider did communicate in with the police in 1977.
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So, not the I did it letter from 1974, but we have a communication that was not a letter. It was on December 9th, 1977.
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One day after he killed Nancy Fox, Dennis Raider called police from a pay phone and told them they would find
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Fox's body at her home. But for a letter communication to line up here, I believe
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it is the how many do I have to kill letter that Raider mailed on February 10th, 1978 to KK
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News, a Witchah television station claiming responsibility for the Otero murders along with those of Katherine
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Bright, Shirley Relford, and Nancy Fox. He suggested many possible names for himself in this letter, including BTK,
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and demanded media attention, saying, "How many do I have to kill before I get a name in the paper or some national
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attention?" The letter was traced to a copy machine at the Witchah State University Library, where we do know
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that Dennis Rder was a student at that time. So, you know, he went undetected, unidentified for so long, but you you
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have some information on this guy, right? Like the I did it letter. I think they kind of just dismissed that and
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they were looking at other suspects in the otter murders and that is why Ra Raider for well really captain for a
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multitude of reasons he kept reaching out to them. He wanted to get his name in the paper. He wanted his moniker BTK
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to be known and feared, but he also wanted BTK to get credit for some of these murders. So, he goes undetected
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for so long. But your unidentified serial killer, you know a few things about him. You know that he is male. You
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know that he wears glasses. And he's someone that uses the copy machine at Witchah State University.
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>> Well, you also know he's white. In 1977, there were approximately 18,000 students
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and faculty at Witchah State University. And we know that the perpetrator wears glasses because
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he dropped his glasses at Nancy Fox's house, a murder, and that he deemed Project
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Foxhound. small detail that may have been on purpose or just a matter of happen stance. Having never been to Park
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City, Kansas, but the ADT mans the letter at a blue postal box on North Third Street here. Again, losing my
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mind. I'm looking at the details in the background, but I found North Third Street to be interesting because one of
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the things that I found incredibly annoying and just frankly dumb about Dennis Raider was how he seemed to be
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shocked that the police failed to pick up on subtle commonalities in his murders. Raider wanted the police to be
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able to connect these murders. Again, it goes back to him wanting credit for it.
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He wants to make a name for BTK. Raider almost treats these clues for the cops as ways that they can create links
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between his crimes, but they are so subtle that nobody would pick up on any of the stuff. And frankly, they're just
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dumb. When they law enforcement and the media did not pick up on these and broadcast them to the public, he had to
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announce himself to the world, coming up with many monikers that the media could
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call him. And it's so desperate and frankly pathetic that he's creating his own name, sending not just creating his
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own name, sending a long list of suggestions of names to be called. So here the postal box is on North Thirdrd
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Street. Years after being caught, he has said things that the cops missed, right?
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He look, oh, I fooled him. The cops missed this or the cops missed that. One of those claims that Dennis Rder makes
00:23:02
is the number three and its unknown importance to the killer. >> Yeah, but at the end of the day, they
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caught you. So those little details they missed, who cares? You're caught. You lost. Dennis Raider, BTK, or versions of
00:23:16
such have been depicted in several books, movies, and on TV prior to Mine Hunter season 1. Some of my favorites, I
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know we've talked about some of these here before in the garage, but we have Stephen King,
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who has said that his novella, A Good Marriage, later turned into a film, were inspired by the BTK killer. Silence of
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the Lamb's novelist Thomas Harris has said that the character of Francis Dollarhide in his 1981 novel Red Dragon
00:23:48
is partially based on the then unidentified BTK killer. The 2004 Law and Order Special Victims Unit episode Scavenger
00:23:58
is based on the case. And episode 15 of season 1 of Criminal Minds titled Unfinished Business is based on the BTK
00:24:08
murders. And that one's about the they call the killer there the Keystone Killer, a serial killer that resurfaces
00:24:16
after 18 years of inactivity. The movie The Clove Hitch Killer was inspired by Dennis Rder. The film takes place in a
00:24:24
small Kentucky town. The town and its residents are haunted by the memory of the Clove Hitch Killer and an infamous
00:24:33
serial killer who bound and then strangled 10 female victims before disappearing 10 years earlier.
00:24:47
[Music] [Music] All right, we are back. Tall can hands in the air. And I can say this uh for
00:25:06
all the listeners out there, Colonel, we appreciate you losing your mind in these
00:25:12
Mind Hunter episodes. >> It has been lost. And if anybody finds it, please email the show or hit me up
00:25:19
on X. Tall can hands in the air, my friends. So now the boys go back to Altuna, Pennsylvania to work on that
00:25:28
Beverly Jean case. Bill Tench is angry at the office, the police office, because because they let the murdered
00:25:37
woman's boyfriend know in advance that they would be coming to talk to him. years later, John Douglas would be
00:25:44
promoted to unit chief of the investigative support unit. So, this is where I think that maybe the genesis of
00:25:54
these profilers actively working cases may have started, right? Because we're seeing they're out
00:26:03
to teach the the police station and the officers and they keep kind of catching these cases along the way. Well, when
00:26:12
John Douglas is promoted to this unit chief of the investigative support unit, that's
00:26:20
pretty much all this unit does. They go out to other locations and work handinand with the local authorities on
00:26:30
a case that that is needs needs their help, needs their assistance for for any number of reasons. Sometimes it's an
00:26:38
unsolved case. Sometimes they have the guy, but they need to come up with ways to get him to confess or better ways of
00:26:47
finding more evidence tying him to the crime. Bill Tench explains to the boyfriend
00:26:58
of the murder victim, this his name is Benjamin, that they are from a particular unit at the FBI and that they
00:27:05
investigate murders that exhibit a sexual component. his words, "We investigate murders when there is a
00:27:12
sexual angle." That's his exact words. Benjamin starts crying. This has an effect on the investigators. The cops
00:27:20
believe that Benjamin is a victim. Holden Ford seems bothered by Benjamin's crying, and Bill Tench says he doesn't
00:27:29
believe the crying at all. He thinks it's just a show. And it's 11 minutes into this episode before we see Bill
00:27:36
Tench smoking a cigarette. So it looks like he's cutting back. Tench Tench then schools Holden and the Altuna cop a bit
00:27:47
explaining why the killer of Beverly Jean is local and not some traveling madman. Next, we have a car ride with
00:27:55
Holden and Dr. Wendy Carr discussing psychopaths. They discuss if the victim had some kind of sexual power and
00:28:05
control over the boyfriend, Benjamin. Carr points out that this murder and the details of such exhibits two different
00:28:12
presentations. This is her starting to put together that we may be dealing with more than
00:28:19
one person being responsible for this murder. When we're back at the office, the basement office, so cozy down there
00:28:26
in the basement at Quantico. a little more cozy than a garage. >> Some more information from the
00:28:32
background. You can see a map behind Holden Ford and Tench. And they have 21 I this is how many I
00:28:44
could count. So if this number is not accurate, my apologies. But it looked like there were 21 push pins in this
00:28:53
United States map. And I'm guessing that each push pin represents a killer that they would like to interview. So,
00:29:01
pausing the frame and zooming in, I could identify a few of the names that were tacked onto these push pins. One is
00:29:11
Brudos, Jerry Brudos, serial killer. One is Corona, a serial killer from California. All of these, the ones that
00:29:20
I could identify were California cases because I couldn't see other parts of the map and I didn't want to try to
00:29:27
guess the serial killers uh from other locations. Mullen is one, Manson is one, and Greenwood. Um
00:29:36
Greenwood was a killer in California as well. So now that they have this idea that we might be dealing with more than
00:29:47
one person being responsible for the murder, they want to talk to Frank Janderman. So this is the brother-in-law
00:29:55
of the boyfriend. They want to talk to him because he has a record. He's got a history of violence. So Janderman is the
00:30:05
brother-in-law of the boyfriend and suspect Benjamin Cartwright. And during this interview process, Tench has a
00:30:14
cigarette. Now we go back to the hotel room where Bill Tench and Holden Ford examine the case file. Tench is
00:30:21
obviously annoyed that they have to share a room while on the road. Because of the mutilation to the body of the
00:30:29
victim, Holden Ford seems stuck on the idea of a sequence killer. Tench rips another butt during this scene.
00:30:38
Eventually, Rose, this is Benjamin's sister, and Frank's wife goes to the police and confesses to some kind of
00:30:45
involvement. So, all three were involved in killing Beverly Jean. Well, they also
00:30:52
tape her confession and when the when it's played back to the doctor, she actually is the one that realizes that
00:31:02
her involvement is deeper and maybe even darker than what she's confessing to. And we we discussed some of the
00:31:11
similarities to those other cases. This is from the Altuna Mir that I referenced earlier. We have information
00:31:20
that in this case of Betty Jean Shade that the victim died from head and stab wounds, the three, the trio, which is
00:31:33
the brother and sister and the >> boyfriend >> boyfriend living boyfriend transported
00:31:40
Shade's body to the garbage dump three days after the killing. And it's very similar that one of the perpetrators,
00:31:47
the living boyfriend in this real life story, did return to the body to further mutilate it while she was before she was
00:31:58
found. In the real life case, police first arrested Catherine and Michael Sult, then arrested Charles, who was on
00:32:07
a Greyhound bus to Pittsburgh, trying to get away travel to Pittsburgh. Though the jury sentenced Charles Salt to
00:32:14
death, the trial judge overruled the decision and gave him a life sentence. He's currently serving out his sentence
00:32:22
in the state correctional institution in Huntington, Pennsylvania. Episode 6 opens once again in Park City, Kansas.
00:32:33
Here we see the ADT serviceman watching TV and incessantly tying knots and untying them. There is a woman with him
00:32:43
in the living room and presumably she is his wife and she is tending to the child. The ADT serviceman scenes, cold
00:32:53
opening, whatever you want to call them. I've seen online I think the this is even a better description. They they
00:32:59
refer to him as the creepy cold opening. You have to kind of try to piece things
00:33:05
together on these scenes because there's often little to no talking at all in the
00:33:12
scene. >> Right. This of course all rings true for the ADT serviceman known to us as Dennis
00:33:18
Raider, the nightmare of Witchita, the bind, torture, kill BTK serial killer. Dennis Rder was married and has two
00:33:25
children. What involvement any of these three have with Dennis Raider today as he wasted away in a prison cell is not
00:33:35
known to a great extent publicly. Oh, and something from earlier here, Captain at ADT, Raider was nicknamed the blue
00:33:46
bookman by his co-workers because he always followed the rules and scolded others for doing as much as making small
00:33:54
talk during work hours. Yeah, I think he mentioned that in episode two. >> We do know that on May 22nd, 1971,
00:34:03
Dennis Rider married Paula Deetsz and then they had two children, Carrie and Brian. Raider was arrested driving from
00:34:11
work to his home to have lunch with his wife in Park City a little afternoon on February 25, 2005. On February 28th, he
00:34:22
was charged with 10 counts of murder. And on June 27th, 2005, at a scheduled trial date, Raider changed his plea to
00:34:31
guilty, he described the murders, which he referred to as projects, in detail, to the court and made no apologies.
00:34:41
Later in July, this is July 26th of 2005, Deetsz was granted an emergency divorce from Dennis Rder. And we have to
00:34:53
point out here that all of Dennis Raiders's known crimes or the crimes that he has confessed to were committed
00:35:01
while he was married. >> Well, and we don't know the complete arc of Mind Hunter because it was scheduled
00:35:10
to last five seasons. But we think what is being set up by these little BTK glimpses is that eventually it'll come
00:35:22
to a head and then the FBI will be going after and capturing BTK and that would be the end of the series, right? And
00:35:31
remember, it was the local authorities that cracked the case and discovered the identity of BTK. I think my guess is
00:35:41
that they were attempting to go for the one that John Douglas couldn't catch, >> right?
00:35:48
>> To to to show like it's it's almost like you're showing the ultimate good guy or
00:35:54
the hero versus the ultimate evil bad guy and he's tormented because he cannot catch BTK. And if you read Douglas's BTK
00:36:06
book, he openly talks about the frustration of trying to profile BTK because he says that there were there
00:36:16
were closed door arguments when they would put their get their team together and try to profile BTK. They they
00:36:25
couldn't agree on a lot of portions of the profile. is John Douglas's book called Inside the Mind of BTK.
00:36:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. And he he does interview him at the end of the book, but but he talks
00:36:39
about the frustration of not being able to catch him and then these these arguments sometimes that got very heated
00:36:45
between different agents working the case on trying to get inside of the mind of BTK. A little more from his life
00:36:55
here, personal life. In 2019, Raider's daughter, Carrie Rosson, published her book, A Serial Killer's Daughter: My
00:37:05
Story of Faith, Love, and Overcoming, where she goes over her childhood and raiders role and such. In an interview
00:37:14
with ABC News, Carrie stated that she writes to her father and has now given him forgiven him, but still struggles to
00:37:22
reconcile her normal childhood with the knowledge that she was raised by the BTK
00:37:28
killer. Well, she's also become involved in the true crime world. And you can see
00:37:34
her on the new Long Island serial killer documentary talking about what the family and what the children are
00:37:42
probably going through now with the arrest of their father and husband Rex Herman. I've talked to a couple of
00:37:50
experts that seem to think that BTK doesn't have a whole lot of many days left, right? not too many days left for
00:37:58
BTK that that he's in quite bad shape and will probably pass away, die in prison this year or next year. This
00:38:08
aligns with with something that we know to be true here because Carrie went and visited her father in 2003, visited her
00:38:17
father, Dennis Rder, in prison in 2020, sorry, 2023. reported him as quote rotting and
00:38:26
unhappy and saying that quote he's lost like 7 in and he's in a wheelchair. >> That's a lot of inches to lose off your
00:38:34
penis. Thinking of of this though, it saddens me because he committed these crimes.
00:38:42
He worked very hard cuz he wanted to be recognized. He wanted the BTK to be recognized. I
00:38:49
don't know if he necessarily wanted to be caught, but then when he was caught because of our fascination with him, he
00:38:57
then gets a platform and then he didn't really spend, you know, a huge amount of
00:39:04
his life behind bars at the 2024 Crime Con in Nashville, Tennessee. We were there. Carrie presented excerpts from
00:39:14
her father's journal that revealed he had sexually abused her when she was a child.
00:39:21
>> Was she not aware of that? >> I don't think that she was. And this, you know, I know that we said that
00:39:28
they're all liars, but I also believe in what we've talked about just earlier this episode that they the serial
00:39:38
killers don't fully understand themselves or why they do what they do. >> In Kathleen Rams's BTK book, she traded
00:39:46
letters with Dennis Rider for a long time before putting together her book. And he states to her many times that he
00:39:56
is not like other serial killers. That he actually does possess the ability to love. That he he was loved and he has
00:40:04
loved. And I again I would spit in this man's face because and call him a liar because you can claim that you know he
00:40:13
said I never wanted to hurt my wife. I never wanted to hurt my kids. That that getting caught. I didn't care about
00:40:19
getting caught. I only I only cared that it was going to hurt my family because I
00:40:24
loved them. Well, if you love them, then maybe don't go out and murder and torture other families and women and
00:40:32
children. This 2024 Crime Con revelation, maybe also don't sexually abuse your child.
00:40:40
>> But I'm going to push back a little bit though because I I do think again, like
00:40:44
you said, they're all liars. But you wonder because he has these time periods, these long breaks. Is this is
00:40:53
this him thinking that, well, I'm just maybe done with that life. I I committed these crimes. I can live in this weird
00:41:03
fantasy world in my head. He provided for his family. He raised his daughter. He was around. He was an active member
00:41:12
in the community. him more so than other killers seem to be able to have two different lives. I mean, am I crazy for
00:41:21
thinking that? >> No, you're not. And that's something worth exploring. And many people have
00:41:27
attempted to do so, not just with BTK, but with others. But I guess >> I mean, I agree with everything you're
00:41:34
saying, >> right? My thought would be is all of the things you mentioned where Dennis Rder
00:41:41
might say that that those are signs of love for my for my family. I would say is it though Dennis or is it just your
00:41:50
attempt to blend in >> because and he calls it cubism where he he talks about himself as um I know
00:41:59
cubism is like a form an art form. Don't don't ask me to explain that. But >> I don't know about the arts.
00:42:08
>> I think he called it cubing or cubism. And what he meant by that is that he has
00:42:13
multiple sides to him. You can only see the front of the cube, right? Each each side or panel of the cube is a different
00:42:23
part of Dennis Raider of BTK. BTK is one of those parts, but you can only see the
00:42:28
front panel, the front side of the cube. That's what he chose to show everybody.
00:42:35
And that part of the cube to me is everything you just said, the the working, providing for your family, uh,
00:42:42
being a member of your community. Yeah, he was a member of the the Boy Scouts with his son, but he also pretended to
00:42:49
have a headache to go to bed early in his tent. And instead of going to bed, he actually snuck off, drove, murdered,
00:42:57
tortured a woman, and then took a bunch of pictures of her with a Polaroid camera that he would keep for later that
00:43:04
he would bring to his happy little home with his wife and two kids. And it also goes back to the idea of all of his
00:43:12
confessed murders. He committed them while he was married. Well, he was already a supposed to be a family man
00:43:20
when he's doing a lot of these killings. And then you're right though, I you know, he does kind of go dormant for
00:43:26
quite a period of time. Does resurface. We we we have to mention that he didn't get completely out of the game. he
00:43:34
resurfaced. But when he was after he was arrested and talking to the police, one
00:43:39
thing that is good about BTK is he likes to talk about himself. He thinks he's something special and he's happy to
00:43:46
share that with the world. >> Edmund Kemper type. >> So, we get to learn a lot about him. And
00:43:51
one thing he says is that, and this is really just quite disgusting, but >> it's called a true crime show.
00:43:59
>> He says, "I never stopped hunting. I was I always had these projects. I just didn't go to the point of killing
00:44:06
anybody. >> Well, but that's what he says in the in the new Long Island serial killer
00:44:12
documentary. BTK is saying, "Hey, Rex, you're you're just one of me." And I wonder if we need to go a step further
00:44:20
because we have these categories of organized and disorganized. And I wonder if this should be a category that
00:44:29
they're researching is the c the the cubism, the husband, father, family man, serial killer, which Rex Herman, Dennis
00:44:39
Rider, the Golden State Killer, all of these types are Gary Ridgeway as well. The
00:44:50
>> I mean, you could make an argument Bundy was like that. >> Absolutely. Yes, exactly. Because he usually had a
00:44:57
significant other when he was committing a lot of his murders and I one of his girlfriends had a a child. And all of
00:45:07
these types are very much of the organized type of serial killer. >> Right. >> The next scene here, Captain has Dr.
00:45:16
Wendy Carr having a one-on-one meeting with Holden Ford and Bill Tench's boss. This is agent Sheepard. He offers Wendy
00:45:25
a job heading the behavioral science unit to which she says, "No, I have a job in Boston." So, while much of the
00:45:33
Wendy Carr character is very, very different from the real life version, a one Dr. Anne Burgess, who if you
00:45:41
attended Crime Con Denver, you already know that Dr. Burgess is an absolute delight and a true gem. And we will get
00:45:49
to know her a bit more as we get to know the Wendy Carr character. >> And you did a great interview with her
00:45:58
back in the day on Off the Record, which we probably should release after part three and four of our Mind Hunter
00:46:06
series. >> Yeah, cuz that's from the Stitcher days. So, this would be speaking of
00:46:11
resurfacing, that interview should resurface, right? >> There you go. But so we it's important
00:46:17
to note here that while Dr. Burgess was never a actual FBI agent, she did absolutely work for the FBI in a very
00:46:27
impactful and incredibly important role for many years. She was recruited by one
00:46:33
of my favorites, the late great and brilliant Roy Hazelwood. We have recommended his books here in the
00:46:40
garage. Those books are The Evil That Men Do and Dark Dreams. Now, I do not believe that the Agent Shepherd
00:46:49
character is supposed to be or based on Hazlewood. They are there's far too many
00:46:55
differences. Roy Hazelwood had a much more hands-on role with the BSU than what the Shepherd character has in the
00:47:04
show, and he was both a leader and a teacher for the BSU. Hazelwood was a profiler of sex crimes. In 1980, Roy
00:47:15
Hazelwood developed the distinction between organized and disorganized murderers, a concept that is still used
00:47:21
by law enforcement to help apprehend criminals. He also defined the six categories of rapist. There's the power
00:47:29
reassurance, power assertive, anger retaliatory, anger ex excitation, opportunistic, and gang. of the six
00:47:40
types of rapist categories of rapists, he says that the anger excitation is by far the most dangerous and the hardest
00:47:49
to capture. And Roy Hazelwood also offered the theory that there is no cure for pedophilia or sexual sadist. He did
00:47:57
some very important work and those are books that do not get enough recognition. They're not looked to as
00:48:06
much as Douglas's books or Robert Wrestler's books. The Wendy Carr character does not
00:48:13
accept the job and Shepard tells her to take her time. >> She's absolutely one of my favorite
00:48:18
characters in this whole series. If she didn't win an award, she should have. >> Her character is fantastic. The actress
00:48:26
that plays Wendy Carr is fantastic. All three of the the main characters, the their acting skills are incredibly
00:48:35
impressive and really the way that they kind of orchestrate and choreograph their movements, their facial
00:48:43
expressions, and their reactions to each other's characters throughout the different scenes is is something that I
00:48:52
think I had to go back and see a second time during this exercise here to fully appreciate. The next scene, we go to an
00:49:01
interrogation room in Altuna. Continuing on with their investigation, Bill Tench
00:49:07
has some questions for one of our murder suspects. Holton Ford is recording this
00:49:14
interview. Tench is getting verbally aggressive with Benjamin or Benji as they're calling him by this point.
00:49:22
Remember, this is Beverly Jean's supposed boyfriend. Tench wants to know why would you do that to Beverly Jean
00:49:29
Benji? A fractured jaw, two black eyes, 14 stab wounds, and the list goes on and
00:49:37
on. [Music] All right, I want to thank you for joining us here in part three of our
00:49:50
Mine Hunter series. So much more to get to. Stick around for the finale. And until then, be good, be kind, and don't
00:49:58
litter. [Music] [Applause] [Music]