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foreign [Music] [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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for listening I'm your host Nick and no one would let us do a show on TV for your eyeballs so with my co-host we do
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this show for your ear balls ladies and gents the captain well if it's going to be that kind of party I'm gonna stick my
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dick in the mashed potatoes it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling my friend
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[Music] today we got glasses full of tropical hazy by the good folks over at zaftig
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this is a New England IPA complete with glorious passion fruit orange and guava garage grade four and three quarter
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bottle caps out of five and we've got to give some credit where credit is due so
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thanks and praise to Elizabeth and Wooster Ohio and a big shout out to Katie L in Lakewood Ohio next up we have
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sisters Catherine and Jacqueline in Austin Texas that's funny a lot of people think we're sisters
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a big shout out to Sarah H in New York we are sorority sisters and here's a cheers to Jennifer in Seymour
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Connecticut and last but certainly not least we have a big shout out and long distance cheers to Alice and kagali
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Rwanda so nice of her to contribute to this week's beer fund for more fun and to stay in touch follow the show on
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Twitter and Instagram and follow me on untapped just search for True Crime karate all right b w e w r u n beer run
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and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
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crime foreign [Music] criticism before we get going too far along because what has been the biggest part of this
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case that has been criticized is that the Somerville Police Department that they locked on to Eddie O'Brien too
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early in their investigation as their number one suspect and not only did they not only did he become a suspect too
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quickly for some people's liking but they locked in on him and failed to look elsewhere I'm gonna give my own
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criticism I agree with the the part of locking on to Edward O'Brien what I don't agree with is the criticism that
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they that he became a suspect too quickly they had evidence that suggests he should be a suspect in this case he
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had stab wounds or or defensive wounds or however you want to look at those cuts by a knife we have a woman murdered
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by a knife we have an individual that has cuts by a knife that they call 9-1-1 and he is I think you said half a mile
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away from the scene of the crime yeah you have a you have his fingerprint a bloody in blood in wet blood at the
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crime scene you have what cannot be ruled out as the victim's blood on his shin so there is evidence linking him to the
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crime scene then we have the issue of two weeks after his arrest he says yes I was at the crime scene right and here's
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what really happened but before we get too far along Captain what I want to mention is
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is the fact that they locked in on him and then they failed to recognize the possibility of well do we have anybody
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else that could have done this I think they were overtaken and blinded by what little evidence they had at the time
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where I want to go with this is there's two other people that could be considered a suspect and I say to other
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people because really we know and I think you will agree with me that regardless of this time stamp where some
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sources say she was killed between 8 pm and 10 p.m right that cannot be it just cannot be okay maybe she was killed
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between 8 and 9 15 but that's as long as you can take this timeline out why because either one of two stories is
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correct either Eddie O'Brien killed her and then fled the scene remember he's he's said to have been
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seen by eyewitnesses leaving the area at 9 20 P.M or he didn't kill her and his story is
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correct that he showed up went into the house and she was already dead when he got there around 9 15. so whatever
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happened to Janet Downing whoever murdered her murdered her either Eddie did it when he got to the house or she
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was already dead when he got there that leaves us with two other potential suspects in my mind yes there could have
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been a whole heck of a lot of people that could have done this but I say two for this reason one we have Paul Downing
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who by his own admission was in the home from approximately 8 15 to 8 30ish we know Janet Downing was alive at eight
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o'clock when the group of boys left her house but even with all of this evidence
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against Eddie is it possible that we have a different suspect maybe even a better suspect right I'm going to bring
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up a guy named Artie Ortiz Artie Ortiz is Janet downing's brother-in-law he is married to her sister
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he was kicked out of the house he and his wife lived with the downings for over a year
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they were kicked out of the home in March of 1995. Janet Downing would tell friends that
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she kicked them out of her home because she believed that Artie Ortiz was dealing selling drugs out of her house
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right okay we need to talk about a woman named Gina Mahoney Gina Mahoney is arguably one of
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Janet downing's best friends leading up to her murder Janet Downing and Gina Mahoney spoke
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several times at length the day of her murder Gina Mahoney says that on several occasions she saw Artie Ortiz's cab he
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was a cab driver she saw his cab parked outside of the house the Downing house after he was
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kicked out of the home when nobody was home when the kids weren't home when Janet was home one didn't also neighbors
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say that they saw his vehicle there from time to time after the time period of him being kicked out yes the other thing
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that's interesting is the reason why this is very important to Gina Mahoney is because she's had conversations with
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Janet Downing where Janet has told her Artie Ortiz still has keys to my home and refuses to give him back and refuses
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to give them back and that's where Gina Mahoney's saying well not only does he have those keys I've seen his vehicle
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parked near your home when I know nobody is home now she's not saying I know he was going in your house or I know he was
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doing anything weird she's just saying when you were not home and when the kids were not home I've seen on several
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occasions his cab parked by your house that same day Janet Downing tells Gina Mahoney that
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she is afraid of Artie Ortiz and that she that he has been harassing her since he she kicked him out of the house
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all right now that's suspicious that's hearsay whatever yeah but we also don't have anybody
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and her life saying that she was fearful of this gentle giant that lived across the street yeah a little more background
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on that on Eddie O'Brien his parents lived on Boston Street his entire life Janet Downing knew Eddie O'Brien his
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entire life she had lived there since the the late 70s and you're right nobody ever said that Janet Downing told them
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that she was afraid of this 15 year old boy he was over at the house all the time it was his best friend's house so
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more importantly than this hearsay bit is this story Gina Mahoney says that on the night of Janet
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downing's Murder She Was Out on her front porch she's watching what is going on over at
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her friend's house Janet downings this is the the the police lights the ambulance sirens this is all big
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commotion she's out on her front porch now wondering what happened at her friend's house wondering if her friend
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is okay and she's watching it from her front porch she says that at 10 pm she sees Artie Ortiz walking his hair is
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wet and freshly combed Artie then engages in conversation with Gina he says that he is there because his
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dispatcher told him that his sister-in-law Janet Downing has been murdered Gina finds this immediately very
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off-putting finds it to be very strange considering that the EMTs and the police are still at the Downing
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house Janet's still in the house right nobody really knows what's going on at this point but he's saying that
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his dispatcher knows what's going on and told him that Janet Downing had been murdered a little fishy right
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it's a little fishy I I don't know a little fishy you know I don't know if if the dispatcher would be you know
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listening to police scanner or if or if that could explain it but it gets a little more interesting than that
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because at the same time that she's talking with Artie Ortiz she says that she spots his green taxi
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cab his cab is parked on Hamlet Street this is this is the street that runs up the
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side of the along the side of the Downing house that his cab is parked on Hamlet Street
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and it's facing the wrong way his vehicle according to Gina is parked on the same side of Hamlet Street as the
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Downing home but his cab is facing Highland Avenue it should be facing the other direction
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which is Boston Street Gina says that Ortiz's cab is blocked in this is 10 o'clock they're
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having their conversation she sees his cab it's blocked in by a fire truck a police vehicle and an ambulance
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well what would that tell us either or Jesus vehicle dropped out of the sky and fell to that spot
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or he was parked there before emergency Personnel arrived responding to the scene
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then here is something very bizarre Artie Ortiz during his conversation with Gina
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he discovers he can't find his keys in any of his pockets he tells Gina he can't find his keys
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he leaves Gina's front yard and runs over to his cab where she says she can see him crawling around inside the
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vehicle and very obviously looking for his keys after several minutes he gets out of the cab and steps foot onto the
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Downing property which of course is a crime scene by now so of course he is stopped by an officer
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he asked the officer if he could be allowed to go into the backyard and search for his keys why would his keys
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be there oh what oh how how astute of you two contemplate that good job caddy fishy
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the officer told Ortiz that this would not be possible this is a crime scene so then Ortiz goes back to Gina's front
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yard and again he's talking with her then he asked her if she thought that the cops would be there much longer
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do you think these cops are going to be here much longer hey you think they're gonna you you think they're gonna like
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take her dead body and move it real quick because I need to find my keys she tells him yes I do think that they will
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be here for a while and then he goes on again and says that he needed to get into the backyard so he could find his
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keys because he needed to return the cab back to his work eventually I don't know
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if he grew tired or what but that same night he had the cab towed he never found the he didn't get the keys that
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night he had the cab towed back to his work very interesting story well look if somebody would have told the police
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this this is some evidence they could have looked for inside the house which obviously they didn't look for and
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then we have Eddie O'Brien's story that he was he says he was too afraid to tell
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anybody because he was threatened by a man with dark hair Artie Ortiz has dark hair
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all right let's go to the trial Captain so leading up to this trial what we have basically
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is for two years they fight over the idea of should this boy who was 15 at the time of the murder is 15 and five
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months old at the time of the murder should he be tried as a juvenile or as an adult
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and the whole purpose in reading that summary in our trailer of the lulio's article in what he called
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the coming of the juvenile super Predator was because at the time in our country several states were
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battling with the idea because there was a rise in violent crime and murders committed by juveniles
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the idea at the time was do we try these juveniles ages 14 to 17 as adults not only do we try them as adults but can we
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sentence them to life in prison without the possibility of parole because you have his article that points out
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that hey a big batch of these dudes are just evil you cannot rehabilitate them and they are super Predators they are
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monsters I don't want to fully condemn his article because what we have John delulio saying in that article that I
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left out of the trailer he was saying that our parents and our communities need to be raising these
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children and raising these boys better so that they grow up and they have feelings and empathy and they care about
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each other and they care about others and they care about their neighborhoods and their communities where they
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understand consequences right he was proposing to build more churches not prisons that sounds great to me help
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build more McDonald's and Burger Kings too he is just saying that that punishment isn't the key raising these
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kids properly to be good citizens and good adults will help mold them into not being killers and not being criminals
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what some states decided the solution was try them as adults lock them up with a
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life sentence without the possibility of parole basically lock them up and throw
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away the key and then let everybody know this is what happens to you if you commit murder right so for two years
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they fought over the idea should Eddie O'Brien be tried as a juvenile or as an adult
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and he was arrested as we said in Late July of 1995 he was indicted on August 2nd of that same year
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what we have in 1996 we have judge Paul Heffernan orders O'Brien who's now 16 to
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be tried as a juvenile if convicted he would face a maximum of a 20-year sentence in July of that same year the
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governor of Massachusetts signs into law a bill that would require juveniles over
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age of 14 accused of first or second-degree murder to be tried as adults so then the supreme Supreme
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Judicial Court decides that the judge that said O'Brien should be charged as a juvenile well
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we're going to toss that out right we're going to toss that out and on May 9th of 1997. so we're now at a over a
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year and a half after this kid was first locked up it was decided that O'Brien who is 17 at
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this time would be ordered to face murder charges in the adult court system whatever happened to the right the right
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to a speedy trial what did we say in that one show you have the right to speedy trial you just may not get one
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right and because they're fighting over laws that seems like a lot of our laws lately or a lot of these cases where you
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go we know that the person has the right to they just never they never give them
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the opportunity to well in Eddie O'Brien whether he killed Janet Downing or not fell into a very bad
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he had very bad luck on on many levels but on this level where at the time where some of these states
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were considering combating juvenile violence and murders committed by juveniles by locking them up and
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throwing away the key as we just said the the people that were opposed to that were pointing out that hey
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that kind of setup is aimed at locking up African-American black youth children and throwing away the key and so some
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people were pointing out that they thought it was you know it was racially biased to do this and it does make sense
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because at the time there it was everybody that wanted to attack the rise in gang juvenile gang
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violence in the country in the inner cities right and so Eddie O'Brien then became
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well we got this white kid who lives near Boston and he stabbed this woman across the
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street 98 times so what better way to go no we this is not racially biased this is against the
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board across the board which it was but now you can point to this exact incident
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this exact situation and go this is what we're going after this sexual sadist who
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grew up across the street from these nice people so what we have here Captain is once we are at trial
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you have the prosecution who's going to have to present the theory to the jury and walk the jury hand in hand along the
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way down the path and point to evidence that convinces them of their theory that
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says you know what we believe this happened because we have this piece of evidence to support that portion of our
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Theory and we're going to walk you all the way from Step a all the way to step Z and then you're going to give us a
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guilty conviction afterwards they say that Eddie O'Brien was obsessed with Janet Downing
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that he became obsessed with her that he was watching her and he was asking unusual questions about Janet Downing
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and that was proof that he was sexually obsessed with this woman one of the questions that he asked was he asked
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Janet's son his best friend Ryan why does your mother sit in the driveway she would pull up and sit in her car for
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a very long time often after arriving home I believe she was a smoker I've seen some people say that she was a smoker so
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that would make some sense what the prosecution did to support this he's obsessed with her is they had four
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different people testify that Eddie O'Brien asked why does she sit in the driveway for a long period of time in
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her car the problem with that is it paints a picture that he was asking multiple
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people this question the truth of it is he asked this question to Ryan in front of a group of
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people right so you have this you have multiple people testifying over and over again to
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the same thing but really it's only from one incident he didn't ask multiple people multiple times it happened once
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and further it's not that weird of a question well there were other people that testified
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that they had they had had the same discussion with other people and other neighbors wondered why she sat in the
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driveway yeah for a long period of time sometimes back in the day I'd be listening to NPR and I'd get home
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and NPR would have another 10-15 minutes left and it's like well I'll just sit here
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I'm gonna finish the show Howard Stern has made me a victim of sitting in a parking spot or in my driveway for years
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now I got it I gotta stay on until the commercial break yeah so hold up a sign that says no flicky flicky and you'll be
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fine what what they think is going on this is this is interesting too did he ask any other questions there yes he did
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ask if Ryan he asked Ryan if Janet was a lesbian and that seems like a very bizarre question to ask I think it
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sounds like an immature question he's 15. yeah and we did have a person who testified that said
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she had a discussion with big Ed with Eddie's father and they were talking about Janet
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Downing mind you these people they practically live on their front porches in the summertime they're all friends
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they all know each other they can all see each other's business and these two people were saying you
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know Big Ed in this business this woman were commenting on how Janet had not had
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a male companion since the divorce between her and her husband yeah some one of the adults posed the question to
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the other maybe she's a lesbian yeah or maybe it just takes her some time maybe she's raising these four kids by herself
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and she just doesn't have the time to go try to find right but where do where this plays into look the the prosecution
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is going to point out that this is a big deal that Eddie O'Brien asked this question it's not it's not a big it's
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not a big deal because of the testimony of this woman who says Eddie O'Brien was
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in the room and overheard this conversation between two adults so him being a kid a child probably thought
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well maybe there's some Merit to it and he asked his friend who happens to be the son of this woman is your mother a
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lesbian it's one of those things that on the surface it seems bizarre when you read it that in the paper it seems
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bizarre that Eddie O'Brien would ask this but then when you get the full story his dad and other people saying
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some stuff and maybe some rumors around town and he said I'm going to ask my friend to ask my friend so that day the
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day that Janet Downing was murdered the prosecution points out one thing that Eddie is at the home and he learns
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that the the kitchen door to the home is broken the way that this works is that if you were to turn the doorknob on
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either side either on the outside or the inside it does not operate the door his
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friend explains to Eddie that because of you know the purpose of security we added a deadbolt to this door
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that same day Eddie remember he goes into the den and sees Janet Downing sleeping on the couch
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we then have the boys agree that they're going to go swimming and the prosecution
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would point out that Eddie didn't want to go swimming because once he learned of the broken door to the house and saw
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Janet Downing sleeping on the couch that his obsession kicked in oh yeah and that
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he figured out you know what I'm not going to go swimming with these guys I'm going to come back in here access
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the house through the broken door and I can get to her while she's sleeping on the couch
00:26:00
foreign [Music] [Music] cheers crispy cabin yeah all right so let's get into some of the
00:26:31
facts or some of what the prosecution says is evidence against Eddie O'Brien in this case remember the newspaper said
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that they have three separate eyewitnesses who saw Eddie O'Brien fleeing from the Downey House fleeing the scene
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and technically that's not the case nobody saw him running from the house what they see is
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two of the witnesses anyway see him running from the backyard area or the bushes that are near
00:27:03
the Downing home where the problem comes in for the prosecution at trial is that one of the persons that says that
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they saw Eddie O'Brien says under oath I don't know for certain that it was Eddie O'Brien that it was a
00:27:21
tall person that was about the same size as Eddie but I'm not 100 convinced that
00:27:28
it was Eddie because when I saw this person I said I called out to him by name to which he didn't turn around and
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he didn't respond right the other Witness their story changed three times before
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it was Eddie O'Brien that they saw running from that area well that's a strong witness yeah it it was I don't
00:27:50
know who it was I couldn't see who it was and then the final story was he turned and looked at me and kind of
00:27:57
smiled and it was Eddie O'Brien you pointed out something interesting earlier about Eddie's clothes and
00:28:03
they're remarkably clean for having to stab someone 98 times the third Witness offers up a little bit of reasoning as
00:28:13
to why Eddie O'Brien might have appeared to be cleaner at least his clothes appeared to
00:28:18
be clean after having attacked this woman this witness says that in their yard something startled them so they looked
00:28:26
out the window and they saw Eddie O'Brien jump a fence in their yard fleeing from the area
00:28:34
Eddie O'Brien at this time according to this witness was wearing a black shirt and when he went up and over the fence
00:28:41
he could see a white shirt underneath the black shirt okay well there's your solution Eddie O'Brien was wearing a
00:28:49
black shirt he murdered this woman fled the area took off the black shirt had the white shirt underneath dumped the
00:28:56
black shirt somewhere right and none of the blood soaked through none of it soaked through but here's some problems
00:29:01
with this eyewitness's testimony first of all they don't outwardly say 100 percent it was Eddie O'Brien it was
00:29:08
saying somebody that said Eddie lived in my neighborhood his whole life I know who Eddie is the person I saw was
00:29:16
about the same height and had the same body type as Eddie O'Brien what I'm pointing out here is there's a chance
00:29:22
that this eyewitness saw somebody jump their fence right it just might not have been Eddie O'Brien now you've seen the
00:29:28
size and the stature of this boy it would be difficult to confuse him with somebody else right can we agree on that
00:29:36
yeah but the other problem is I think he stated that Eddie was 250 pounds there's
00:29:41
no way by looking at Eddie being 6'4 was he 250 pounds he was probably closer to
00:29:48
300 pounds that's a lot of man meat to try to get over a fence depending on how big the fence is well this looks good
00:29:57
for the prosecution because it explains away the lack of blood on Eddie's shirt what looks really bad for the
00:30:04
prosecution is the eyewitness's testimony that says he saw this person who he believes to be
00:30:11
Eddie O'Brien jumping the fence this was at 10 15 PM we know that is impossible as Eddie O'Brien was at the midnight
00:30:21
convenience store being interviewed by police and examined by EMT workers at that time
00:30:28
so this eyewitness testimony you just have to toss it completely out okay yeah if you saw somebody man it was not
00:30:35
Eddie O'Brien because I have police and EMTs that will say he was down at Union Square in this convenience store yeah
00:30:42
but all these changing stories of the eyewitnesses it would have to make a a jury or a judge start thinking that the
00:30:51
prosecution is finding people that are just willing to say anything yeah but what I like about this testimony by two
00:30:58
of the eyewitnesses the ones that it could be possibly Eddie Eddie O'Brien that they saw is this actually in my
00:31:06
mind works out in Eddie's favor it doesn't work out in the prosecution's favor because Eddie O'Brien has already
00:31:12
said yes I was at the scene that night right I went into the home and then I fled out the back door at the Cellar
00:31:18
Door I crashed into the bushes and then I ran down Hamlet Street where it looks good for Eddie O'Brien is
00:31:25
these Witnesses say that it was at 9 20 pm Eddie O'Brien and three Witnesses say
00:31:31
that he was at his home at 9 15 and went across the street immediately to the Downing home and then saw what was going
00:31:38
on his life was threatened and then he left the area why that looks good for him you mean to
00:31:45
tell me that in the course of Simply five minutes just five minutes Eddie O'Brien managed to somehow get into the
00:31:54
home leave no sign of a forced entry brutally attack Janet Downing drag her from the den where she's sleeping or
00:32:03
believed to have been sleeping into the living room and during all this stabbing
00:32:06
her 98 times yeah it seems a little difficult for that to be done and then on top of that
00:32:14
if he's not covered in blood did he did he wash up before leaving the Downing house again we're adding time to this
00:32:20
it's just getting more improbable by you know by the testimony was she able to defend herself at all
00:32:28
like being able to scratch up this individual or well that's where we get into some of
00:32:36
the blood evidence there is certainly blood evidence that points to Eddie O'Brien having been at the scene which
00:32:43
makes him look very guilty we got the we got the fingerprint in in the wet Blood
00:32:48
on the uh beam going down the stairs to The Cellar that matches his fingerprints
00:32:54
we have a drop of blood that is later found on his shin that is type A B and a very small percentage of people have
00:33:03
type A B blood so it's not 100 that it's Janet downings but it looks very likely
00:33:09
that it is right that's her blood and he's also stayed in halves there at the scene he says he touched her he rolled
00:33:15
her over it's possible he got some of her blood on him and he didn't kill her if we believe his story
00:33:22
some of the blood he would have got off when he went to the store and cleaned himself off there's the problem though
00:33:27
Captain they found other blood evidence at the scene it's labeled as identifiable meaning
00:33:35
that the sample is good enough to find a match to it it's identifiable but it has
00:33:40
not been matched to anybody it's not been tested against anybody other than Eddie O'Brien Brian
00:33:50
it's not like they rounded up 10 12 15 suspects and tested all their blood and said uh We've cleared you well that goes
00:33:57
back to people's complaints about this case of law enforcement locking into him too early or too quickly I think I think
00:34:05
the issue is not so much too early it's it it's well it's it's the wording that I struggle with because you're
00:34:12
absolutely right it's it is locking in on him not only is he our number one suspect but nobody else could have
00:34:19
possibly have done this we're only going to look for evidence to build our case against Eddie O'Brien and I'll tell you
00:34:25
what man I don't really fault the police I don't fault the Somerville police for
00:34:31
that I felt the prosecution because the police their job is to collect evidence to collect facts make
00:34:40
an arrest hand it off to the prosecutor and then the prosecutor decides do we take this to court do we convict this
00:34:46
man and then the prosecutor didn't at no point look back and say well wait a second we have we have a
00:34:55
third type of blood found at the scene that has we've been told it's not Eddie O'Brien's right
00:35:03
against any other suspects right we're not going to round up any other people in this this whole big mess and and test
00:35:11
it against their blood so that that's where it gets to be to be very difficult and then what gets
00:35:20
to be extremely difficult for Eddie for today because what we have here Captain is he will be found guilty
00:35:29
of murdering Janet Downing the trial lasted roughly about two weeks it started on September 17th and on
00:35:40
September 30th the defense rest now the defense only presented for two days during this trial
00:35:48
and after nine hours of deliberation Eddie O'Brien was found guilty on first-degree murder so he sentenced to
00:35:55
life in prison without the possibility of parole this is the mandatory uh sentence under state law after that was
00:36:04
signed signed into effect in uh 19 what did we say 1996 [Music] one of the big problems for Eddie
00:36:13
O'Brien is this story about Artie Ortiz and being parked near the home on the night in question
00:36:21
it never comes up during trial his defense attorney didn't bring it up that's whiffing it his because his
00:36:31
defense attorney didn't want to the problem with presenting any side of the story is it places him at the crime
00:36:38
scene that's what his his defense attorney thought right where I say I say the opposite
00:36:47
it you need to explain why some physical evidence puts him at the crime scene right there's only reasonable doubt if
00:36:54
we hear that side of the story there's only reasonable doubt if Eddie does Place himself at the crime scene and
00:37:00
then we have alternative suspects because what the jury gets told the story they get told is we have proof
00:37:07
that he was there and it when he was first asked if he was there he said no well that makes him look awfully guilty
00:37:15
yeah or it makes him look like an immature scared 15 year old well and that's why I went through that whole bit
00:37:22
of the the life sentence without the possibility of parole the kid was 15 years and five months old now yes this
00:37:30
is a horrific crime if you're ever going to get life without the possibility of parole
00:37:35
to me it's justified in a case like this the problem is if you're going to take a
00:37:40
15 year old and lock them up and throw away the key you better be damn sure you got the right 15 year old
00:37:47
you better be sure you got the right guy and I think there's questions about if he even did this
00:37:56
I I don't think his size helps well here's here's the other thing too I think asking a group of people asking a
00:38:04
room of people to believe that we have this physical evidence we have this kid who later says yeah I was there but this
00:38:12
is what happened oh and by the way not only did I find a victim who was just murdered fled her home and then within
00:38:19
minutes I was attacked and stabbed myself asking a room of people to believe that
00:38:26
what are the chances right you no one's going to believe that and to be honest with you I'm not sure that I believe it
00:38:33
I'm not saying that this is a wrongful conviction because I believe Eddie O'Brien
00:38:38
I'm saying that I question the conviction Beyond A Reasonable Doubt because I don't think that any
00:38:45
alternative was explored no alternative was even presented at the trial and also
00:38:52
frankly I believe the story against Artie Ortiz why was his cab parked there right
00:39:00
why didn't he have his keys right why did he need to go into the backyard to look for him
00:39:06
exactly you know why wouldn't he give the keys over in the first place why was he visiting her house without her
00:39:14
knowledge or her not being there so what do you think Captain do you think Eddie did it or well Eddie has
00:39:21
also um not Eddie but Artie Artie has a possible more more likely of a mode if you'd be mad because she kicked
00:39:33
you out there's and that she also was damn bad blood between them right just telling
00:39:39
people that she's afraid of him Maddie I just don't understand the motive if it's sexual in nature why wasn't
00:39:47
there any sexual assault not saying that every murder that is sexual in nature has any type of assault but
00:39:56
I also don't see a history of this gentle giant which everybody called a gentle giant and they call him the
00:40:03
monster the monster 15 year old right they call them a gentle giant so the motive doesn't make a lot of sense to me
00:40:11
as far as Eddie's concerned uh they also make it seem like oh now he is here was his big opportunity
00:40:21
I don't see that as being such I don't know and there's just no history he has no history well and that's why
00:40:30
they need for the general public us to believe you know their the Commonwealth's argument inside of the
00:40:37
story is that this was a monster in the making he's a sadistic killer and this is there's no proof of that
00:40:46
this is the first that we're seeing of it because he was so young stabbing somebody 98 times that's that's the
00:40:52
first of it there's normally some kind of aggression we see this time and time again
00:40:58
um violence towards animals no I agree but but violence towards family wouldn't be teachers it would not
00:41:05
be impossible for this to be bubbling up under the surface without anybody knowing
00:41:13
um that's what I have a problem with right right I think if he was obsessed with her on some level
00:41:22
maybe making some inappropriate sexual advancement to her or something like that would make a lot more sense but
00:41:29
this idea that oh he was so obsessed with her would with no evidence of that zero evidence of that
00:41:36
that he was somehow obsessed with her and that caused him to stab her 98 times just
00:41:43
and that's what I mean we're making big leaps here that's and that's what I'm I'm getting at that that it's these are
00:41:49
these are leaps that are being made to put someone behind bars for the rest of their it's not there's no question about
00:41:57
it it's the rest of his life it's life without the possibility of parole and then I could see somebody's argument
00:42:04
going well look he lied okay but we don't have to make this giant leap of why why would a 15 year old lie because
00:42:13
they were scared because they're immature because they don't know how to handle these things that's not that big
00:42:20
of a leap to to or that big of a excuse of why he lied but like these other things like
00:42:28
like we talked about before the taxi cab why was it parked there where were your keys
00:42:36
to explain those things away you have to make bigger leaps and um and I I also don't think he passes the
00:42:47
eye test for me I don't think Eddie passes the eye test I don't see this uh cold-blooded killer I see
00:42:59
a kid that um seems very meek it was the word I'd use I mean he really looks like a big
00:43:07
version of Ralphie from the Christmas story well what we do end up with Captain is I believe it was in 2014 that
00:43:16
the state of Massachusetts they overturned that what might be a flawed idea and I
00:43:24
think that it is of of trying 14 year olds and 15 year olds and then sentencing them to life without the
00:43:31
possibility of parole they overturned that they're they're they will not be convicting juveniles of life without the
00:43:39
possibility of parole now for Eddie to apply for parole he has to be willing to show remorse and fess up
00:43:49
to what he has been convicted of this is the the kind of stuff that drives me insane it drives me absolutely insane
00:43:58
because that's we're supposed to be adults here but that's the circle that's the vicious circle of it is that you for
00:44:06
for one to be rehabilitated for a horrible act and a horrible time in their life to be rehabilitated from that
00:44:13
and from that person you then must be willing to accept what you did and show that you want forgiveness and that you
00:44:24
are remorseful for what you did and that you are a different person now than when
00:44:29
you were placed into the system back then the problem with that is it only works out you only need to be
00:44:35
rehabilitated if you were in fact a bad guy back then if you were wrongfully convicted
00:44:43
then you weren't a bad guy back then right but that's why this nation and this world feels like it's on fire
00:44:49
lately because people just can't be adults about things okay so we have a system
00:44:56
that is created by man we know that there's some flaws to the system right we also know that there's innocent
00:45:04
people that are convicted of crimes so if we know all that there are going to be times where
00:45:12
somebody can get paroled we should allow the parole hearing to happen even if the guy went on trial claimed he
00:45:22
was innocent was convicted claims he's innocent when when the parole comes up still
00:45:30
claims that he's innocent let him go in front of the pro board and let the parole board decide
00:45:37
because to me if I'm going has the guy ever admitted that he did it no he's always claimed that he's innocent again
00:45:44
like you were saying how do you have to be rehabilitated to be clear that you did the crime to be clear the parole
00:45:52
board is the one that does decide that um but again it's it's it's the way that it's that it's like but he doesn't even
00:46:00
get it Go in front of the pro board until he admits that he did this it doesn't make any sense to me
00:46:07
like that shouldn't make much sense to any adult what we do have though too is we do have
00:46:13
the Innocence Project has taken at least a review of Eddie's case which I don't know if through the
00:46:22
appeals process or what will happen here again I'm not saying with 100 certainty that
00:46:29
this kid didn't do it I'm just saying it looks to me I think it's very confusing
00:46:35
case and I think there's just missteps and there's I really don't think there's enough evidence
00:46:43
um and again it goes back to did they lock on to him too long I I whatever we're going to
00:46:51
figure out the terminology I think they they latched on very quickly like they should have because
00:46:58
he's half a mile away from the crime scene and there's physical evidence evidence putting him there knife wounds
00:47:04
and all by the way you got some blood on your shin didn't clean that up so there's some reason to be looking
00:47:10
towards him but you always have to then you'll go back to the drawing board try to prove yourself wrong
00:47:17
you know if you think he's 100 guilty then try to prove that he's innocent and then look look at you know don't let
00:47:25
any Rock go Unturned because this this is a 15 year old boy's life at stake which you know I think we could do
00:47:35
better [Music] a little recommended listening for you if you need to get caught up on our old
00:47:49
episodes download the Stitcher app it's free and if you want to check out our other show called off the Record we do a
00:47:56
lot of case updates and you can find that on Stitcher premium do we have any recommended reading this week this week
00:48:03
we are recommending the politics of murder the power and ambition behind the altar boy murder case by Margo Nash this
00:48:12
is a fantastic read and it really details the trial and Court proceedings in the Eddie O'Brien and Janet Downing
00:48:19
case that's the politics of Murder By Margo Nash you can find that title and others on our website True Crime garage
00:48:26
click on the recommended page and until next week be good be kind and don't let it
00:48:32
[Music] foreign [Applause]