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[Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you doing thanks for
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listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who when he was five
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imagined that there was a such thing as a unicorn and this was before he had ever heard of one or saw one here is the
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captain that's cuz there was a giant horn growing in my pants it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for
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of five and here's some cheers to our peeps right here first up a cheers to an in Houston Texas and a big shout out to
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Lori and South Ben Oh Lordy next up we have Nicole and Beaver Dam Wisconsin and a big we like your jib goes to Brooke
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welcome yeah you're welcome now give the phone back gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's
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talk some true [Music] crime on June 6th 1996 Devon ag6 Damon age5 were murdered
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their mother darly roer is taken directly to the hospital less than 2 Days Later on June 8th darly gives a
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written statement to police on June 14th darly family and friends celebrate Devon's birthday and that is certainly
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an event that we will get into when we get into the trial portion of Today's Show 4 days later captain on June 18th
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darly is arrested and charged with capital murder with the murder of her two sons we have discussed a good deal
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of the crime scene and evidence found at the crime scene but we need to go through that a bit more in some strong
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details here right so let's get into some things regarding items found at the crime scene that point toward darly
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being guilty and in some opinions maybe even innocent first is the knife the knife that was used in the course of the
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murders was determined to have come from the home it was a knife that came from a
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set from a butcher block that was kept on the kitchen counter in the rer home officer David main testified that the
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butcher knife that match the set with blood on the blade and handle was found on the kitchen counter one knife was
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missing from the knife block and this knife fit into that slot perfectly Bob P an analyst with the southwestern
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Institute of forensic Sciences in Dallas testified about this knife that quote I
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was not able to to determine conclusively that this knife made the wound on Devon's chest but my opinion is
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that a knife with similar characteristics made the wound Judith Floyd a DNA analyst with genan screen
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labs in Dallas testified that traces of both Damon and dar's blood were found on
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this knife she did not receive the entire knife just some samples taken from it Dr Joanie mlan testified that
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the stab wounds to Devon were in fact consistent with that blade and the knife was still sitting there bloody when the
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officers arrived on the scene there's really no question in my opinion captain that this was the knife that was used to
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kill Devon and Damon and it came from within the roer's own home whether or not the knife came from inside the house
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or from outside the house doesn't point in my opinion towards her being more guilty or more innocent that's correct
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it does not tell us who was using the knife during the course of the attacks what we do know is it was used on Darley
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as well if we are to believe the blood evidence now darly claimed that the killer or the Intruder threw the bloody
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knife down on the floor of her utility room but multiple experts this is law enforcement and crime scene analysis
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testified that this story was not consistent with the evidence they stated that there basically would have been
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blood splatter or other marks left on the floor by the knife cluttered clattering to the tiles instead in the
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utility room there were some blood drips and I'm going to break this down because
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there are multiple experts that come in and testify as to the blood evidence but
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to rather than go through each one of them I can collectively report what they are generally saying here they're saying
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about the blood evidence a couple of things one they're not seeing blood evidence that suggests that whoever was
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carrying the bloody knife that they were running and fleeing from the home okay again this could have been an intruder
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this could be darly running around with a bloody knife what they're saying that it's
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consistent with is somebody walking slowly throughout the home that the way that the blood is dripping from the
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knife and onto the floor would be that of someone walking at a slower Pace not speeding not jogging not sprinting
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through the house yeah but if you just stabbed all three people and for all you know those are the only people in the
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house why are you going to run away why not just walk away well I I'm not trying
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to get into the mind of the potential Intruder here I'm just using this and cross referencing it against dar's
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account of what went down that night Tom Beville a retired Oklahoma City Police Captain who was the owner and teacher at
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a forensic School testified about an experiment that he conducted he dropped and threw a bloody butcher knife six or
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seven times onto the floor and said that he could not duplicate the blood spatters found on the utility room floor
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it was his opinion his conclusion that no knife had ever been thrown down at that
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location James KW testified that there was no evidence that the knife had been thrown down anywhere the blood in the
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utility room was from someone slowly dripping the places where the knife had been according to the experts like the
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kitchen counter showed patterns left on the surface by the bloody blade there were some indication that the knife had
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been laid down in a few places on a table on the carpet in the family room marks on the floor and rug
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where it had been Tom Beville testified these findings are inconsistent with dar's story and then you have to wonder
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why the Intruder would have taken the time to put the knife down pick it back up again in various spots around the
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home I find some things troubling with this quote unquote blood evidence and I'm not meaning to question these
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experts or really even put together anything that's just kind of convenient to go along with my own personal Theory
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but I question one the placement of this knife you know we do have evidence I don't doubt this evidence that the knife
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was set down on different locations throughout the downstairs of that home what I'm questioning is is there a
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possibility that darly did this and also did not kill her sons we know she readily admits that she picked up the
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knife anybody that's listened to the 911 call I hope they would agree with me and
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hear the amount of chaos going on within a short 5 to six minute window mhm I think that there is a potential maybe
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small chance but a chance that maybe she picked it up and then it was moved more
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than one time by her herself and again doesn't have to mean that she is in fact guilty correct the other thing that I
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question too here Captain is look I'm sure this Tom bevel's a great guy uh Oklahoma City Police Captain he's a
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owner and teacher at a forensic School his opinion that the knife was never on the floor in the utility room
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because he ran these experiments conducted these tests threw it down six or seven times this is his testimony
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when we are charging a person with capital murder and we intend as the state to execute her if we find her to
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be guilty yeah I would hope that somebody would conduct that test more than six or seven times it seems a
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little yeah we're convicting somebody on a sixth grade science experiment right right even my science fair experiments
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had I would run the test more than six or seven times and so I I question that that what
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doesn't seem to be something that I'm able to question is the fact that she says that the Intruder seems to be
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fleeing he would have been by her own admission carrying the knife at that time there's no indication that the man
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was running from the scene I don't have any reason to think that otherwise that he wouldn't be
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running it seems like a good idea to get the hell out of there to me if you were
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in fact the attacker uh question for you is there blood evidence on the window screen or the window ledge yeah so this
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is a little tricky for the window where the Intruder came in or came out of or was staged to have come in or out of I
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found a few places that state that there was like a bloodied fingerprint a smudged blooded fingerprint and there's
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a couple of them that were unidentified in the home not a lot I think it's only three and we'll get into that more as we
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carry on here but if in fact there was blood on the window sill it would have been in the form of a smudged
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fingerprint let's go back and talk about the screen once again my friend because
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the screen is an interesting part of this case to me because darly tells us that an intruder must
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have cut into this screen opened up the window came through the garage then the utility room walked into the kitchen and
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then came into the family room attacked and killed both boys and attempted to kill her before she fights him off wakes
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up whatever screams and then he turns and fleas drops the knife and then goes back out that same window in the garage
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that he came in the police and the prosecution will tell you that no that darly attacked and killed her sons and
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attempt to Stage the scene that she cut the screen one issue I believe against the prosecution in the police's
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theories here Captain is that it seems readily agreed upon by everyone that the screen they have evidence to believe
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that the screen was cut from the outside and I think that if someone In the Heat of the Moment trying to Stage a
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scene might not be clever enough to think that through but her husband went to bed roughly an hour before the
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murders took place so is it possible that she went outside and and started staging the scene before she would
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attack her children I guess that would be that's certainly a possibility yeah that's a good point you make there
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because he says that both of them say that between 12:30 and 1 is when they parted ways they don't know the exact
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time but between 12:31 they parted ways he went upstairs to go to bed she starts
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to fall asleep the call comes in to 911 at 2:31 a.m. and if it's 1:00 then yeah you're right if she was really
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planning this stuff in advance then she could start to Stage some things beforehand now the screen covering an
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open window in the roer's garage was found to have been cut vertically and horizontally as we said yesterday in a
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t-shape from the outside the screen was cut with a sharp implement this is all per the evidence
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and forensics that we can see that it was cut using a sharp instrument one thing that's tricky and goes against
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dar's Case is that law enforcement state that they believe that another knife a large bread knife with a sharp point
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that was found in the same Butcher Block that the murder weapon came from right they believed that this was the knife
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that was used to cut the tea into this screen and they say that because on its blade they found microscopic traces of
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fiberglass rods and rubber polymer dust indistinguishable in color size and composition from the screen's components
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so they can't say 100% that this this microscopic debris if you will yeah came from that screen but they're saying that
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there's nothing when you compare the two together there's nothing that disting ises it from being from anywhere else
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than that screen yeah my problem with that though is there's a bunch of different knives in a butcher
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box and how many times do you use that knife for something else other than cutting like meat or something you might
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use it to open up mail or you might use it as a sometimes I'll use a knife as a screwdriver so I I I don't know I get
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what you're saying but I think it's a little more intricate than that I mean when you're
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comparing the the debris that would be created from cutting the screen to this microscopic debris that's found on this
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one particular knife right not found on any of the other knives in the Block it's definitely damning yeah I to me
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it's actually more damning than the murder weapon knife because as you pointed out correct just because it came
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from that that butcher block inside the house does not mean we know whose hand was using it to stab people so the
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defense does argue a point here on this knife and saying why okay one you cannot
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there's no expert saying 100% that this debris came from that screen we just have nothing in its
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makeup to declare that it didn't come from the screen and we didn't find it anywhere
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else when when looking the argument that the defense raises and this is a good one I think they're saying look the same
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brush that you were using to dust for fingerprints and such on the the window that could have been accessed by an
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intruder MH is the same brush that you were using when you were checking all these knives so it stands somewhat of a
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reasonable EXP explanation that there was carryover yeah you'd think you'd find a little bit of debris on all the
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knives well and that's the the prosecution's argument back that's a rebuttal well we only found it on this
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one knife wouldn't if if that stands to be true what you're arguing wouldn't we find it on all of
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them look I don't know I mean does it matter that if you what order you're checking these knives in with this brush
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so yeah you should have been more careful because this it it B basically makes your point invalid you're exactly
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right and if you're going to bring it up at the trial as evidence against and there's an argument against your
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argument then expect that argument to be you know you're bringing this into question yeah if I'm on the jury right
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and people were going look this is a damning piece of evidence I'm going you have to throw this evidence
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out because it makes sense either way but I think technically by the way the way you're instructed in court to be on
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the jury if something weighs equally for innocence or guilt you have to have it go towards innocence well and one thing
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that you know a lot of people will bring up in this case is that okay the the wounds the injuries the attack on the
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boys was enough to kill them to end their lives that's how severe it was and the injuries to darly who is being
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accused of their murder well they're not as severe she survived she didn't have as many wounds they weren't as deep and
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it goes on and on but this is another situation where we could spend a whole hour on her injuries I won't waste
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anyone's time because my general thought about her injuries is this they marched a lot of quote unquote
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experts in and out of that courtroom that said that her injuries were superficial that she did them to to
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herself and they were superficial for every expert that they marched in that said her injuries were minor and
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superficial the defense marched in an expert that said she almost died they were severe she could have died she was
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within 2 millimet of dying well let me ask you a question what do your eyeballs tell you what my eyeballs tell me
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is reviewing some photographs that belong to this case and her injuries that are seen in a lot of
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these photographs one thing that I think the the defense I think the defense screwed
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up a little bit in this case and one thing that they screwed up on is I've seen a picture that was taken of her in
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her hospital bed where she does not appear to be awake this must be shortly after surgery mhm she looks freaking
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terrible man like she looks to me like she's knocked out and lucky to be alive from what I've reviewed and
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everything I've been told about this case and could find that photograph was not shown to the jurors not presented in
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court that day I think it's a powerful photograph what was shown to the jury and shown in court during
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the proceedings was what the prosecution presented and these would have been pictures and photographs of her injuries
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and they would have been days afterward this would be you know when when she came into the police station and when
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she was eventually arrested so those ones don't look bad at all but I think the one that shows to me what I think is
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the real severity of her injuries is the one where she appears to be knocked out
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in that hospital bed yeah I mean I think when I look at her stitches I mean number one word I think is oh that's
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nasty yeah that's a real nasty uh but it reminds me a little bit and and do you want to guess what I'm
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thinking of a case that we covered I believe it was Chicago uh Lulu Lemon mhm reminds me of
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that case where you have a victim supposed victim which is actually the murderer going to create self-inflicted
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wounds those wounds were minor these to me not so much two millimeters away from
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basically killing yourself very quickly and all the other wounds pretty deep again enough to have stitches on
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multiple parts of her body not just on her neck but the neck is probably the worst one of the
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bunch yeah but anywhere she has staples it's nasty well and the neck would be if you believe the Intruder
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theory if you believe darly that would be the wound that would be the injury the attack portion that the
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Intruder is trying to use that would be the the Fatal blow right there the attempt at taking her life yeah and
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again her injuries you have experts arguing it both sides well the injuries to her arm are not indicative of
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defensive wounds and then another expert tells you they are exactly defensive wounds every case that that we've
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reviewed here captain and we're coming up on 500 episodes so we've reviewed uh what two three couple four million yeah
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we've we've reviewed quite a bit her the the wounds to her arms they're in the exact spot that I
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would think that that's how you defend yourself you put your arms up you put your arms between you and your attacker
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MH so I don't know how anybody could say oh we can prove that these are not defensive
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wounds I'm not saying that they are I'm just saying I don't know how anybody could stand up there and look 12 people
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in the eye and say these were not defensive wounds so I don't think the injuries to
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her tell us a lot not when you have experts arguing both sides of the coin right again it's like I said if
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something leans towards well it it doesn't make her look innocent or guilty then you have to view on the side of
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innocent and then they point to the kitchen sink where there's proof that someone had cleaned up around the
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kitchen sink cleaned up some blood around the kitchen sink okay that's great it doesn't look
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good for darly in my opinion but we have Darren Darley and people arriving at the
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crime scene that are saying we saw her holding towels well she put a towel on herself and she put a towel on her her
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son correct and so it's so nobody's disputing that there there wasn't tals being used right right and I'm I'm just
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saying it could be another part that's just kind of gotten lost in there did she clean up I don't think it points to
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guilt 100% or innocence it certainly doesn't Point towards innocence either well again I want to go back to what her
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husband said is when he woke up before she called 911 both boys were alive so if she is guilty of this she was giving
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the opportunity for both of those kids to say we know who did it and it was it was Mom yeah that's interesting because
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the information I have actually it's unclear if both boys were alive but one was most certainly alive when Darren
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found the boy and was still clinging to life when First Responders showed up on the scene and there were doctors that
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testified to that boy's injury saying one he couldn't have survived very long after after sustaining those injuries
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okay so a matter of minutes is as long as he would be alive that to me actually backs up
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dar's timeline of the events right she wakes up after the boys are attack chases the guy or runs for whatever
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reason into the kitchen and then very quickly immediately calls 911 and the police we know are on the scene before
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the end of the call which is only 5 minutes and 44 seconds long so that actually goes along with dar's timeline
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and it doesn't have to be something that she had to make it fit it just is and Darren comes down the steps he's still
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alive the doctors also testified that the the boy would have been able to make a noise that's their exact statement I
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don't know that that means that they could talk but it seems to me if he could make noises again there's a chance
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that he could have survived the paramedics believed that there was a chance they could revive this kid that's
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their words as you pointed out this kid could have told us what happened at this
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attack who attacked him and again I don't think she has any type of expertise to know like well I stabbed
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him enough that he's only going to live for a couple more minutes and he's not going to be able to say my name or he's
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not going to be able to tell his dad that his mom killed him yeah she has no expertise on that I don't know I think
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very few people would and then then there's the sock okay I'm sure there's somebody out there in their car
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screaming at the at the radio going when are you guys going to talk about the sock well let's get to the sock right
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after this quick beer break [Music] [Music] welcome back cheers to everybody in the
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front and everybody in the back especially the people in the back here we go Captain let's talk about the
00:27:50
sock all right the sock evidence and this is evidence that's found at the crime scene the problem is this sock is
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not found inside the rer home it's not even found on the rer property it's found two houses away near a trash can
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in someone's yard so how do we know that this sock actually belongs to this case
00:28:16
that it's important to this case well it had blood on it and it had a some of both of the boys blood was found on the
00:28:26
sock now there was no blood found anywhere else around this sock you know there wasn't a puddle of blood blood
00:28:35
drippings nothing of that just this bloodied sock that has it's not even a whole lot of blood on the sock itself
00:28:42
but think about the location of where it was found it's found two homes away near
00:28:49
the trash can on someone else's property the thing with this sock and with the blood evidence on this sock to me this
00:28:57
is the one one thing that strongly points toward darly being innocent in this case the murder weapon the knife
00:29:09
bread knife that may or may not have been used on the screen mhm the cut screen itself some of the blood evidence found
00:29:18
inside the home dar's injuries compared to the boy's injuries I think anyone could make a strong argument for or
00:29:27
against using I any of that evidence for or against darly and I say that with a lot of confidence because that's what
00:29:35
happened at the trial right the cleaning of the sink is a little more damning against Darley again I don't think so
00:29:44
because she brought up the fact that she had these towels that she used to try to
00:29:50
help her kid out and help herself out right and it's one of those situations though I wish that the there were
00:29:58
someone to have seen her doing this or at the very least she says that she cleaned up around the sink for whatever
00:30:05
reason we don't have that and that's why I I call that more into question but the
00:30:12
whole weight of everything I really look at this sock as being completely against
00:30:17
darly being guilty and I say that because there is in fact blood from both of the the deceased victims found on
00:30:26
this sock and and then we cross reference that with the information that we receive from the doctors at trial
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that state that the the boy that died in the presence of Darren and in the presence of First
00:30:43
Responders who if he would have been revived could have told us what exactly went down that mommy attacked me or a
00:30:51
strange man attacked me or whatever the amount of time that it would have taken for him to expire does not leave a lot
00:30:58
of room for someone to Stage a ton of things at this crime scene right the sock in particular because the sock is a
00:31:07
big problem for a lot of things one whoever placed it where it was found and it was found by crime scene TCH so
00:31:16
this is not something that just magically appeared later but whoever placed it where it was found or dropped
00:31:22
it where it was found no one was seen so darly wasn't seen running out outside of
00:31:28
the home and then coming back into the home there was no strange man unidentified man who was seen dropping
00:31:35
it or in the area of where it was dropped but again it has both of the children's blood on it so it was there
00:31:43
when the the the boy that we know only had a short window from Attack to death it was there after he was attacked it
00:31:51
was inside the rer home after the attack yeah and then found outside and the other thing too if if one were to Stage
00:32:00
a crime scene it seems like a really bizarre place to place this random bloody sock if you wanted to point and make
00:32:11
evidence and create evidence that there was an intruder that fled the scene you would drop this sock in the roer's
00:32:20
backyard in your own backyard or at the bottom of your driveway somewhere where you you would want the crime scene text
00:32:27
to find now they did find it but again it was several homes away it's not in a spot
00:32:34
that's going to be super obvious for the crime scene text to find this and what about DNA why didn't they test this sock
00:32:40
for DNA well they they did find some DNA and they found dar's D DNA inside the sock but they didn't find any other DNA
00:32:50
on the sock from my no they did not find any other DNA on the sock now there are
00:32:56
future test that are scheduled for some of the items at the home but all the tests that have been conducted on I love
00:33:04
this this I I love our justice system there's future test on a crime that happened in
00:33:10
1996 well but that's I mean that's not like something like oh we have this we're just waiting around to do it it's
00:33:18
it's at the appeals of dar's Defense oh that these tests were granted her DNA is
00:33:25
found I don't know that that proves again that doesn't prove anything to me it just proves to me that at some point
00:33:32
and probably recently she may have worn that sock and looking at this utility room is it also
00:33:40
is it a laundry room I'm just wondering how this killer got the sock okay so it does look to me like there's
00:33:49
a I only have a drawing of the ground level of the road to your home like a floor
00:33:57
plan and so there are two rectangle square shaped items in the utility room which
00:34:04
could be washer drver that would make the most sense and according to darly and Darren they kept a
00:34:15
basket of items that were used as Rags so like this sock it's it's mate you know they you buy them in pairs right
00:34:25
it's mate was never found not inside the home not outside the home I lost my meate years ago so that to me stands to
00:34:34
go along with this thought that it's a it's now become a rag at its you know at this point in its sock life YOLO and so
00:34:44
yes the they kept a basket of rags and items that were to be used as Rags inside this utility room so again if a
00:34:55
criminal entered the home through that window in the garage they would come in the only room that it's accessible to
00:35:02
the home is then the utility room they could have quickly just grabbed that sock and placed it over their hand or or
00:35:12
or used it in some manner to try to you know go in and then pick up a knife with
00:35:18
it the thing is if if you're criminal if you're Intruder is in fact a sophisticated criminal he's got gloves
00:35:26
on his hands there's a good strong chance he's not leaving his DNA inside that sock right again the issue becomes
00:35:34
how does that sock get to where it is and darly remains inside the home calling 911 all at the same time that that
00:35:42
doesn't leave a whole lot of time for darly to Stage all of these items yes there's some time for her to Stage some
00:35:49
of them I will admit that I don't see enough time to Stage all of these items especially the sock yeah I agree and
00:35:57
that was something that was presented at the trial and something that the prosecution they just didn't address
00:36:03
because they didn't have an answer for it mhm well again to it it's 1996 so DNA testing and hard our
00:36:13
knowledge of DNA was not the greatest so I'm certain even if there was even traces of touch
00:36:23
DNA that they wouldn't have been able to get that off the sock that seems correct
00:36:28
to me the again they do have dar's DNA from that and of course they have both boys because they have blood evidence
00:36:35
from both boys on that sock as well I do want to point out something too that I failed to mention when discussing the
00:36:43
screen so the windows in this garage you would only see these windows from the back of the home okay you
00:36:52
wouldn't see these out front and these windows only look to be about 8 maybe 9 in off of the ground off of concrete I'm
00:37:03
pointing that out because if I were an intruder if I were looking for a way into this
00:37:09
home I have to say captain that's the same window I would pick I would pick one of these two windows in that
00:37:15
location yeah makes the most sense and it would not be hard to climb in and out of this window you would slice the
00:37:23
screen open up the window put your foot your left foot or right foot put in and then you bend down and boom you're in
00:37:29
the garage well and if you're a neighbor you could sneak into their garage when their garage door was open and unlock
00:37:36
those windows well and that's you bring up a fine point there my friend something we mentioned time and time
00:37:43
again in previous episodes uh in particular the Aurora Hammer Slayer episodes make sure your windows are
00:37:51
locked people and then take it a step further like we said in the Aurora case lock the door from your garage to your
00:37:59
home mhm because if there was an intruder in this case Captain that's how they got to into and exited the home in
00:38:09
this case so what we're saying is lock your [ __ ] up lock that [ __ ] up tight there was a vacuum that was also called
00:38:17
into evidence and this is because they it was found tipped over and the prosecution in law enforcement stated
00:38:26
that this vacuum was tipped over and they could prove that this was further sign that
00:38:34
someone was staging the scene because underneath the tipped over vacuum they found debris and blood meaning that the
00:38:44
vacuum was tipped over not during the course of a scuffle or someone fleeing the home but it was tipped over
00:38:51
afterwards to make it look like there was a scuffle that the blood was in a location where it could not have been if
00:38:58
the vacuum was already tipped over yeah but you could bump a vacuum and it it tips over I don't know if it necessarily
00:39:08
proves that somebody was trying to Stage uh a scuffle you know I agree with you and we don't need to argue this
00:39:15
point I'm just pointing out that the their argument was that the blood was in a location that if the vacuum was
00:39:22
already tipped over the the the scuffle was already over at that point the the attack had already happened the
00:39:29
stabbings had already happened right we don't need to argue it any further because this actually was later proved
00:39:35
to have been moved by crime scene tax so great right so what you're saying is that now we have proof that crime
00:39:47
scene texts messed with the crime scene yeah and and not a positive way no they either bumped it over or or moved it
00:39:57
during the course of of their work there I mean they were they crime scene techs
00:40:02
were at this scene for nine straight hours after arriving on the scene and probably several visits after that as
00:40:12
well so this is a lot of work a lot of moving pieces and parts I'm pointing this out to go well if we can prove that
00:40:19
this is the case with the vacuum what does it say to us about the sink area and some of the other things
00:40:27
that we call into question inside the home what we can't what I think we cannot call into question is this sock I
00:40:34
think this sock it's to me it's not 100% definitive proof that that darly is Innocent but to me it it strongly
00:40:43
suggest given the timeline that we have to work within we we cannot change the timeline it is what it is those are the
00:40:51
hardcore facts of this case there does not seem to me to be enough time to kill both children
00:41:00
administer my own injuries stage all these things get the sock two doors down outside without
00:41:09
being seen cut the screen alarm and awake my husband call 911 and then the First Responders are on the scene before
00:41:18
the 911 call is over well again I think they came to a conclusion way too early and I think if if they would have
00:41:25
started questioning people in that neighborhood they would have found somebody that knew a little bit too much
00:41:31
about Darling right a little bit too much liked her a little bit too much knew a little bit too much about her
00:41:38
schedule knew a little bit too much about her family cuz it seems to it seems to me if you're finding this sock
00:41:45
yes you could park a car far away and you're going to I guess run to your car to get away
00:41:52
but with the sock being found if it's an intruder I would say that points more to
00:41:59
somebody that lives in the neighborhood could be I just think that if it were somebody that had good knowledge of the
00:42:05
victim and using victimology it seems like there would have been a more optimal time to to plan your attack
00:42:13
that's true that's true I mean you know that there that Darren lives there if you know a good deal about darly you
00:42:19
just and from everything we see they're operating with one vehicle at this time at this stage in their lives you yeah
00:42:27
that's an interesting fact too because it's like I wonder what you could see into the garage from those outside
00:42:35
windows well the car was parked out front in the driveway right but either way you'd be able to see if there's a
00:42:41
second car correct and if you didn't know much about them and you just saw one car you the perpetrator might
00:42:48
assumed oh well I see her laying down on the couch and there's only one car here
00:42:54
her husband must be at work or you know he must work third shift I'm just saying
00:42:59
if the perpetrator didn't know much about her yeah that's a good call and then I take it a step further if in fact
00:43:05
it were a stranger that that broke into the home stranger danger I keep going back to the idea captain that somebody
00:43:13
could have seen her the vantage point would not have been great but somebody could have seen her through one of the
00:43:19
windows in the family room sleeping on the couch and maybe not have seen the two boys sleeping on the floor and even
00:43:28
with the chance of a husband being upstairs some of these guys will take that risk right you go in your I your
00:43:39
goal would be to sneak in undetected to the point where maybe she doesn't wake up until you already have hands on her
00:43:48
till you're already threatening her because we've seen this with the uh Golden State killer with with serial
00:43:55
rapist and time and again the idea is they're they're not waking up until until the point where the threat is
00:44:03
already there so you can silence them so that they're silenced and then whomever's upstairs is not a key factor
00:44:10
in in the course of your attack what becomes really screwed up real quickly if you are an intruder is stumbling upon
00:44:19
these these kids sleeping on the floor and Damon was actually in a position which doesn't make a whole lot of sense
00:44:25
of why he would be sleeping there uh where he was found but if he was in fact sleeping in the position where he was
00:44:33
later found there's a chance that if that if those rooms were dark enough remember
00:44:39
dar's words in her written statement is that she flipped on a couple of lights after this attack and that the TV was
00:44:48
turned off at some point mhm there's a chance that the Intruder may not have known that that child was sleeping on
00:44:55
that floor until he stepped on them or stumbled over them yeah by this point gloved hands he's come in he's put the
00:45:04
put the sock over his gloved hand pulled a knife out of the Butcher Block that's
00:45:09
on the counter in the kitchen which he would have walked past that through the kitchen anyway on his way into the
00:45:15
living room now the short of it here Captain we won't continue along too much on this trial but the short of it is
00:45:22
that on January 6th 1997 this is just 2 days after dar's 20 7th birthday that's when the trial began on February 1st
00:45:30
darly was convicted of murdering Damon she was only charged with well only taken to trial for the one
00:45:38
murder the thought being a couple reasons why he was young enough that it was an automatic capital murder case
00:45:47
right they they were getting the death penalty if they got a conviction in that case and if they were to lose that case
00:45:55
there's a good chance that at a later date they would have charged her she was charged with both murders but actually
00:46:00
taken her to trial for the murder of Devon uh 3 days later she was sentenced to death by lethal injection by the
00:46:08
state of Texas now we talked a lot about motive what would be the possible motive
00:46:13
well if she were in fact the killer of these two children the state points to a few different things as being possible
00:46:21
motive one depression that she was depressed two that the family was having money problems again the money problems
00:46:28
are certainly in dispute for everybody that says they were having money problems there's also evidence that they
00:46:33
weren't having money problems we'll Circle back to that and then the other one was that she was unhappy in life and
00:46:40
did not want to be married anymore did not want to be a mother anymore the money problem thing is certainly a weird
00:46:47
one here because if you look at the life insurance policies on the members of the
00:46:52
roer family they did not have a whole lot of insurance on the two murdered boys mhm they didn't even have enough to
00:47:02
cover their funerals right so so they went if if money was a problem and she's killing to get out of that problem well
00:47:10
they they became more in debt because of the murders right from my from what I could find here Captain it was $5,000 on
00:47:19
each child and they spent approximately $14,000 total on the funeral services now now if money is what darly
00:47:29
was seeking there was a huge life insurance policy on Darren why not just kill him yeah the
00:47:37
husband is big money I mean we're talking $5,000 a kid compared to it was like $250,000 life insurance on Darren it is
00:47:48
my belief captain that en large part darly roer was convicted not so much on the evidence
00:47:56
because I think we've done a good job of pointing out that a lot of the evidence
00:48:00
could be argued either way for innocence or guilty however one thing that really
00:48:06
stood out was this silly string incident okay so darly and her whole family participated in a birthday party for
00:48:15
Devon this was days after he was killed they were doing their best to mark this special occasion with joy instead of
00:48:24
sadness and but hold on a second th this doesn't make sense to me maybe it's cuz
00:48:29
I don't have my own biological kids but if my kid died or my kid was murdered I don't think I would go to his
00:48:40
grave site and celebrate his birthday I think I would you could maybe do something at home you know to think
00:48:48
about him and maybe even have a cake there or something but but to go to the grave site I don't know I guess that's a
00:48:55
little strange but that's that's just my thoughts I agree with you and I bet you if darly were here with us
00:49:02
today she would agree with you as well because I think I found her having a statement somewhere at a much later date
00:49:10
that says you know looking back it might have been a bad idea but she says look my my son was turning seven we would
00:49:17
already planned some of his birthday before he was killed and he was very much looking forward to being seven and
00:49:23
we wanted to have some kind of celebration for him some kind of birthday party for him now in dar's
00:49:32
defense it was her sister's idea uh for portions of this event it wasn't just her idea but the reason why we're
00:49:42
discussing this is because the police department took video of this event okay and they showed it over and over again
00:49:53
to the jury well what was the jury seeing they were seeing darly smiling laughing having a good time shooting
00:50:01
Silly String all around Devon's and Damon's grave yeah she looks like she's not even out a grave she
00:50:10
looks happy in the video we' you know anybody familiar with this case has seen this video she looks as if her kids have
00:50:17
not just recently been murdered so they showed this video at the trial and I know of at least one juror that says
00:50:26
that this video is what sealed the deal for him that she was guilty of killing these boys I for the life of me cannot
00:50:37
figure out what the hell the defense was thinking Captain duh but what happened here is the prosecution actually had a
00:50:47
video that was hours long it was hours long the second half of the video shows a whole bunch of happy people roer
00:50:54
family and friends happy celebrating this birthday party the first half of the video shows a very sad
00:51:05
gravide service and Gathering of these friends and family where darly is crying I mean crying out loud it's not
00:51:17
just weeping silently to herself and we're talking almost 2 hours of crying and praying and crying
00:51:26
and praying together with all these other people that portion of course the prosecution's not going to show and I've
00:51:32
seen some people that say that's unfair that the prosecution didn't show that portion they want to win the case yeah
00:51:39
their job they didn't show up to lose yeah their job is to get a conviction yeah you think you think Michael Jordan
00:51:44
shows up and goes you know what let's spot the other team 30 points let just tie my hand behind I'm the best yeah I'm
00:51:50
the best spot him 30 points give him a shot well I mean OJ's prosecutors did this you know well the only thing that
00:52:00
the prosecution has to do legally is say to the court look this this videotape that we have this we consider this to be
00:52:09
evidence can will you allow us to submit it as evidence yes we will okay well then that means everything from start to
00:52:14
finish on that that cassette is evidence and their only job at that point is to turn it over to the defense and say
00:52:23
we've seen it all you should see it all as well and then you can decide defense what portions of the video you want to
00:52:29
use in your defense of your client but this stuff I hate and I hate arguing about this stuff when people will say to
00:52:37
you well look uh she shouldn't have been smiling at their grave sight that's proof that she's guilty we don't know
00:52:46
how you don't know how you'd react to these things just like the 911 call I don't know how I'd react uh to seeing my
00:52:54
kids and puddles of blood would I be even able to talk would I even be able to call
00:53:01
911 I I I don't know so I think these times where people want to point this as some kind of evidence look I think it
00:53:10
makes her look bad and that's probably one of the reasons she got convicted but it's not evidence it's not evidence but
00:53:18
again the defense had access to this and I will read you what happened and what went down at the trial the defense
00:53:25
decided that they did not need to insist that the remainder of the Silly String video be shown that means after the
00:53:32
Silly String portion was shown where everybody's laughing and having a good time and darly looks like a horrible mom
00:53:38
who's not remorseful or regretful or in mouring at all after that's shown the defense made a conscious decision to not
00:53:47
show the other portion not showing the long terribly sad prayer service and memorial for the two boys this in my
00:53:56
opinion was an enormous mistake after the trial juror Charles Sanford said in an affidavit that quote had we been
00:54:05
shown this other tape so that we had been able to see the whole picture of what happened that day I believe I would
00:54:14
not have voted to convict Mrs rotier wow take this a step further this was a big reason to find
00:54:24
her guilty from these jur this was something that when they were back behind the scenes when they're
00:54:30
deliberating when they're when they're when they're trying to come to their conclusion guilty or
00:54:35
innocent they played that Silly String video I have seen that they played it five six seven maybe a dozen times yeah
00:54:45
behind closed doors not inside the courtroom just where the 12 of them could view it and watched it over and
00:54:53
over and over again and I'm sure every single time they hit play they became a little more convinced At This Woman's
00:55:00
guilt so I think this was a huge mistake on the part of the defense well yeah but
00:55:06
it's also as far as public opinion goes because we know that sometimes the the hands of Justice move very slowly but if
00:55:14
she gets convicted because of this I think one of the reasons by having this shown also to the public like on news
00:55:23
channels and stuff like that they go look at this Monster look at this woman she she must be responsible we got a
00:55:31
conviction and she must be responsible and that's why I think a I think this clip itself is the reason why there
00:55:38
hasn't been this crazy movement to I mean there has been a movement but a crazy overwhelming amount of people that
00:55:45
say this doesn't make any sense why she is convicted we also referenced earlier Captain some unidentified fingerprints
00:55:54
there were some unidentified prints in the house they have never to this day been identified there were prints found
00:56:02
on the garage window which housed the slashed screen the exact location the base of the window this would be where
00:56:11
you would think that the Intruder or maybe even darly herself trying to Stage the scene would have touched right it's
00:56:18
been stated that these fingerprints do not do not belong to darly Darren or law enforcement officials investigating the
00:56:27
case also a fingerprint found in blood on the coffee table was too smudged to identify we have one expert that says
00:56:36
that it is his opinion that the this fingerprint appeared to belong to a child the defense put forth a witness
00:56:46
that said that it could be that of an adult another bloody fingerprint found on the door out to the garage from the
00:56:55
utility room to the garage was too smeared to be useful at all so someone with bloody hands touched the coffee
00:57:03
table near the boys and the door handle to the garage and someone touched the garage window whose fingerprints are
00:57:13
these we don't we can't match them to anybody known to be inside that home that night yeah I do want to point out
00:57:21
something too A lot of times when you have smudged fingerprints and look I don't know the size of this
00:57:28
and I'm I'm guessing that's what this expert's saying well it probably belonged to one of the boys that was may
00:57:33
have been a smaller fingerprint again an expert saying well it could have belonged to an adult but smudged
00:57:39
fingerprints that are found in blood they're usually smudged and have no actual fingerprint because the person that left
00:57:47
that smudge was wearing gloves that it comes from a gloved hand yeah or if he's wearing one glove and it's glittered
00:57:55
then we know who it is and I do want to point out here captain and I'm not saying that these persons make better
00:58:03
suspects than darly I'm not saying that uh I'm just saying that I'm pointing out
00:58:08
that there are other avenues that could have been taken with this investigation there are other things to have been
00:58:14
considered here she wasn't the Standalone suspect in my mind one we have a black car that was seen casing
00:58:22
the roers neighborhood street and even some witnesses say home home this would have been weeks before the attack so we
00:58:29
have multiple eyewitnesses multiple people living in the neighborhood that they say they spotted at one time during
00:58:36
the nighttime weeks before the attack a suspicious black vehicle next we have this one I think is really alarming we
00:58:44
have two men that try to enter a home in the same neighborhood in the 1:00 a.m. hour that same night oh my God yeah so
00:58:54
some woman she saying that she fell asleep on her couch she was either reading or watching TV she falls asleep
00:59:02
on her couch she hears someone attempting to open her front door you know just using the handle and so she
00:59:09
got up and looked through the peephole and said that she saw two men standing on her front porch who then fled once
00:59:17
they couldn't get in the door that's the same night and we talked about what time
00:59:23
Darren and darly say that they went to sleep that's in the same time frame how can you lose this case well
00:59:33
and here's one that I can Name by name and I don't think that they would have there would have been and hold on a
00:59:38
second cuz we also don't know the person that was casing their house weeks earlier we we possibly casing the home
00:59:47
possibly casing their house weeks earlier the neighborhood the street it's not that hard to go okay but we also
00:59:52
have these two guys that were trying to break into another house it's not too far to I'm just saying like they always
01:00:00
say to win a defense or to win a case you just have to have a better story or a more logical story or present enough
01:00:09
doubt yeah I mean you could say well maybe the guys that broke into that house were the same people casing their
01:00:16
house earlier or maybe they weren't but maybe they weren't they just tried another house right and that means
01:00:22
there's multiple people trying to break into houses in this area what I find highly alarming about that
01:00:28
witness's uh statements is think about it she's saying I was asleep on my couch there's I'm not saying this happened but
01:00:37
is there a chance that one or both of those guys looked through a window saw this woman by herself sleeping on a
01:00:42
couch and said H let's try the door and see if it opens yeah this is this is our
01:00:47
house this is our victim it's not too damn hard to believe that they went throughout you know went to different
01:00:53
parts of the neighborhood and continued to look in Windows and maybe spotted another young attractive woman sleeping
01:00:59
on her couch and decided you know what yeah the door doesn't work and we may have woke the person up at the last one
01:01:08
let's see if we can find a window that's open or a window that's unlocked and also they wouldn't be that afraid of if
01:01:15
there is a maleo home because there's two of us right and again the chance that you could silence your potential
01:01:22
victim before they could alarm anybody that you are even even in the home here's one and again police and
01:01:31
investigators would have had no way of knowing this individual's name at the time we know this guy and actually when
01:01:37
I was reviewing this case here Captain this is bizarre to me because I thought well when I first looked into it I
01:01:46
thought This Woman's guilty as hell and as I started looking more and more into it I started thinking uh maybe she
01:01:51
didn't do it well if she didn't do it then somebody else did is there an alternative yeah and the first person
01:01:58
that jumped to my mind was Michael Jackson Tommy ly cells he is a serial killer he was active at the time he was
01:02:06
active as far as we know from 1980 to the year 2000 he was active in the states of Missouri New York Illinois
01:02:15
Texas and Kentucky probably others as well he earned the nickname Coast to Coast or the cross country killer yeah
01:02:23
yeah I know this guy um but the reason why jumped to mind to me was he actually committed crimes that were very similar
01:02:32
to this case and as we already pointed out he committed murders in the state of Texas so one one to just give you a
01:02:41
little taste of it because I don't want to go too far into Tommy lindel's because there would be a lot to talk
01:02:46
about but just to prove that he did similar types of crimes in 2004 Tommy lenells confessed that on October 13th
01:02:57
1997 he broke into a home took a knife from a butcher block in the kitchen stabbed a little boy to death and
01:03:05
scuffled with a woman that he found inside the residence this was Julie Ray Harper and her son Joel Harper Joel was
01:03:15
killed Julie survived the attack and she was later charged with Joel's murder and
01:03:22
convicted of killing her son then years later Tommy lyells confesses to this attack on this boy but
01:03:31
he only has one conviction and they say what 22 suspected murders yeah the words
01:03:37
that we have are retired Texas Ranger John Allen said quote we did confirm 22 murders I know there's more I know
01:03:45
there's a lot more obviously we won't ever know he's been executed he was executed by the state of Texas well got
01:03:54
him well real quick to if this photo is correct of one of his victims that I think got
01:04:01
away this younger victim it looks like her one of her wounds is in the exact same spot on the body as the neck wound
01:04:14
on Darlene yeah so that's why I mean his attacks were very similar he was known to break into a home and then he would
01:04:23
often kill as many people as he could but in most cases he only ended up killing the children and would attack
01:04:30
somebody else or scuffle with them fight with them attempt to kill them and flee
01:04:34
the scene and he did this in multiple States what a [ __ ] princess a couple of other possibilities and here's one that
01:04:41
seems a little obvious and and we just didn't get to it but would be Darren roer yeah now I do want to point out and
01:04:50
I'm not going to go too far down this road because we have darly who is said from day one and still to this day even
01:04:58
after they have scheduled her her her date of execution has not been scheduled but she's been that's her
01:05:06
punishment she said all along all this time Darren was not the guy that I saw that night Darren could never have done
01:05:12
this on the reverse Darren has always said that he never believed darly killed the kids yeah he stood by her he still
01:05:20
stands by her to this day well and I know there's a camp of people that believe it's possible that they're both
01:05:27
responsible and they're both covering for each other I just don't see the evidence to say that he was involved at
01:05:34
all I find it hard to believe that darly would stand by him all these years after
01:05:40
she's been sentenced to be executed right at some point you walk away from that and you say all right this guy was
01:05:47
involved as well there are several other things here too captain at some point darly said that she suspected one or
01:05:54
possibly even two men that lived in her neighborhood I don't know the details of
01:05:59
that but that's something she has said over the years I don't know who these men are why she would suspect them skip
01:06:06
hollandsworth one of my favorite True Crime writers that writes for Texas monthly he referenced something that he
01:06:12
had seen elsewhere that at one time there was some suspicion surrounding a local police officer's son um I'm
01:06:20
guessing this would be a grown man son and then also one thing that is brought up in this case and it's kind of an
01:06:28
aside I couldn't find any real information on it but it was super bizarre to to find out was that there
01:06:37
was an active serial rapist that was active in the Greater Dallas area at the time of these murders again like we said
01:06:46
the the most logical motive for us if it's an intruder would be sexual sexual would be
01:06:55
a stranger attack would be my my opinion for for the most part but one thing that
01:06:59
I found interesting about this serial rapist that's referenced in this story again couldn't find information if this
01:07:08
rapist ever escalated to murder or committed murders in the course of his other crimes I couldn't find if the the
01:07:15
person was ever caught but one thing that they did state is that this serial rapist at the time was known to use
01:07:23
items found inside the victim's home during his attack the sock the knife that's what we have here in dar's
01:07:34
case well no and also like you said this um seral rapist that's in the area could
01:07:40
have been these two men that the eyewitness saw those that night it could have been the black car that people saw
01:07:48
uh in the neighborhood they all could be connected and personally if you if you wanted to sit down and asked the colonel
01:07:57
what do you think happened here look this might piss off a lot of people I don't know but I actually lean
01:08:05
toward her being better to be pissed off than pissed on I lean toward her being innocent I'm not 100% convinced either
01:08:14
way I'm putting a lot of weight into other people's thoughts and theories one being the juror that we already
01:08:22
referenced and talked about saying that I think this could have gone the other way had we had more information and seen
01:08:30
this other video I also take a lot of stock and put a lot of stock into Darren roer himself yes standing by and saying
01:08:38
that she's innocent all these years again it's the behavior of this woman there were some people that questioned
01:08:46
her behavior and there were other people that said she was like the the greatest
01:08:49
Mom you know she would she loved these kids she would do anything for her children yeah and I don't see a history
01:08:58
there I don't see a History of Violence there's nobody that's come forward that said hey there was bruises on these kids
01:09:05
all the time or that she was a violent person or an angry person again there there seemed to be no mention of a fight
01:09:14
that night between even her and her husband and also I think if she had any of those traits or if she had anything
01:09:22
that would trigger her husband to not believe her I don't think he would believe her
01:09:29
and I don't think he would stand by her because you you just murdered two of my kids I could see why they came up with
01:09:35
the theory but I think this is a situation where law enforcement came up with the theory and then they triy to
01:09:41
put the pieces we'll make them work we'll we'll make the pieces fit again that's the prosecution's job to get the
01:09:49
conviction it's the defense to obviously get her acquitted I don't think she should have been maybe you
01:09:58
charge her maybe there's enough to charge her I don't think there's enough to convict her so whether you think that
01:10:03
she's innocent or guilty I don't think there's enough to convict her and I think the defense should have had an
01:10:11
easy day in court of Defending any piece of evidence thrown at her and I'm also putting a lot of stock into this next
01:10:21
bit here captain in 1999 there was a book that came out on this case and it was called Precious Angels a true story
01:10:29
of two slain children and a mother convicted of murder By Barbara Davis this book accounts for roer's
01:10:39
Guilt for darly roer's Guilt the author was convinced at the time of writing the
01:10:44
book researching the book and releasing it that darly was 100% guilty Barbara Davis has since changed her mind and now
01:10:53
supports darly rotier by donating all of the income from her book to dar's [Music]
01:11:13
family very interesting case one that you could go back and forth on depending on what side you're hearing the evidence
01:11:22
from would like to hear your opinion on this case go to True Crime garage.com and click on the blog and let us know
01:11:31
what you think and if you need more trr garage for your earballs check out our bonus show called off the Record we do a
01:11:38
lot of case updates so if you're going hey I know you guys covered this but this was in the news you should do an
01:11:45
update we probably already have on off the Record that's right join us back here in the garage next week for a new
01:11:53
episode of off the Record and and a new case on True Crime garage until then be good be kind and don't litter
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