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[Music] [Applause] % [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:49
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that just like Michael Jordan he knows the ceiling
00:01:55
is the roof he is the captain what it's good to be seen and it's good to see you this week we are very happy to be
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drinking tweak burban Barrel age Stout by Avery Brewing Company garage grade 4 and 1 half bottle caps out of five check
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out this American Imperial Double Stout I drank a few of these on Friday checking out some new games with some
00:02:20
friends and because of the high ABV it's a uh 17.5% well forget about driving because
00:02:27
I couldn't even read after a couple days so so be very aware friends you normally
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can't read anyways either way you're going to love this strong boozy Stout with coffee added aged and bourbon
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barrels from the very cool people at Avery Brewing and tweak was brought to us by these very cool people first up we
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have Jillian in Austin Texas next we have Jake from State Farm in good old Cleveland Ohio well she sounds hideous
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J&T they want us to do uh Richard rire we get a lot of Richard Ramirez request episodes aren't you afraid of Richard
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he's he's one of the guys that I'm afraid of yes and last but not least we have Wyatt in Jacksonville who says I'm
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00:03:48
yeah why don't you just sit over there and sit on your goddamn thumbs yeah so thanks a lot Wyatt thanks to everybody
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on Facebook Twitter Snapchat Instagram all that stuff untapped at True Crime garage all right everybody gather around
00:04:22
grab a chair grab a beer and let's talk some true crime [Music] in 1985 Hunters found a large metal drum
00:04:42
in allentown's Bear Brook State Park then in 2000 the second drum was found by Cody in all four unidentified
00:04:55
victims a woman two girls related to her and another girl were found inside the two to threeyear olds little
00:05:07
girl that looks like like a brick has been used to you smash her head in retired New Hampshire state police
00:05:18
detective John Cody vividly remembers the moment when he stumbled upon a rusty metal drum two bodies stuffed
00:05:27
inside I took my flash and looked in and you could see there was something white
00:05:32
inside the plastic bag so I peel back a little of the plastic bag and that's when you can see that there was bones in
00:05:39
there and Lisa that's why investigators want to come back here to search the very same spot in the spring where the
00:05:46
bodies of a woman and three girls were found they're also hoping all this media coverage will help bring their loved
00:05:53
ones forward [Music] November 10 1985 there is this little town in New Hampshire called Allenstown
00:06:13
and in 85 the population was less than 4,000 people in Allenstown we have the Bear Brook State Park so on that
00:06:22
November day there's two brothers they're out hunting this of course would be deer hunting season and they're on
00:06:28
the outskirts of the Bear Brook State Park you say of course like like you're the best hunter in the world I'm I'm
00:06:34
constantly scouting he's a Avid Hunter people this is off of a Wooded Trail which is off of Everwood Drive these two
00:06:42
brothers spot a bunch of trash and amongst the trash is a tarp the tarp is covering something so under the tarp
00:06:49
they discover a barrel and it's lying on its side this is one of those big 55g metal drums you know I've seen pictures
00:06:57
of this site and the barrel appears to be like a dark blue or maybe even a black color I'm sure everyone's familiar
00:07:04
with these types of barrels and the barrel that the hunters find it's sealed yeah and the two brothers they decide
00:07:09
that they're going to investigate so of course they open up the barrel inside they find trash bags and inside one of
00:07:16
those trash bags they find remains these are human remains so technically this Barrel is found on private property on
00:07:24
this property there had once been a camp store that had operated for the park goers of Bear Brook State Park this was
00:07:32
called The Bear Brook store but this small store burned in July of 1983 so now it's just a shell of the store that
00:07:41
remained so on this private property basically the whole place kind of looks like a dump in my opinion it has been
00:07:47
described as having a small burnt building which is was the store a mobile home a camper several broken down
00:07:55
Vehicles several barrels and appliances that were scattered on on the grounds of
00:08:00
this property back then the Allenstown Police Department was run by Chief Norm Connor and like you said this is a very
00:08:07
small community yeah small population so of course the police department is very
00:08:12
small and they certainly are limited as far as investigative resources goes so Chief Connor brings in the State Police
00:08:19
to assist in the investigation back then this may sound crazy today but back then
00:08:25
New Hampshire didn't even have a medical examiner's office so the remains were flown to Maine to be examined once in
00:08:33
Maine what they discovered in regards to the human remains in the barrel was that
00:08:38
they were actually two sets of remains stuffed into the barrel wrapped in these trash bags we now know that we have the
00:08:45
remains of two females we have the remains of an adult woman and a young girl the girl probably not even old
00:08:54
enough to be like a teenager they do the tough work and they put together a SC sketch of the woman
00:09:00
and a sketch of the girl they release these sketches to the media and to the public in hopes that someone would
00:09:06
recognize these two and put names to these bodies obviously when you have a victim or victims usually you have means
00:09:14
of identifying the victim sometimes you'll find identifiers with the body you know like a photo ID credit card
00:09:20
driver's license something with a name and or a face on it or you have family friends or neighbors that can identify a
00:09:28
body so you start by making an identification to the victims and then once you have
00:09:33
that established you can start investigation by interviewing the persons in in the victim's Inner Circle
00:09:41
right usually that will provide you with you know the victim's timeline you know
00:09:45
who who were they last with where were they last seen what were they doing the day they went missing yeah or in this
00:09:52
case did they have a husband or a boyfriend or you know they normally look at that first yeah you know what were
00:09:59
they planning to do do they have any enemies unfortunately we have a situation here where we have no
00:10:05
identifiers we have decomposed remains so you're left with creating and releasing sketches yeah Sketch that you
00:10:13
don't even know how clear the sketch is and this is also before the the technology that they had where they take
00:10:20
the DNA to reconstruct you know like a a drawing or an image of the person so without victim's names and knowing very
00:10:28
little about these people we have no Inner Circle to interview hell we have we have no Circle at all basically right
00:10:35
one possibility being here that the remains are related um that the grown woman could be the mother of the girl
00:10:42
that was found with her that was certainly a possibility and something that investigators were considering as
00:10:48
they try to put names to these bodies so they don't know who these people are who
00:10:53
the victims are so you'd think at some point they'd have to start looking in that area for possible missing person
00:10:59
mhm and maybe try to connect the dots that way yeah and that's one thing that they were able to cover a lot of ground
00:11:05
on they they were able to eliminate persons as not being the identities of the bodies found right however of course
00:11:12
they were unable to actually identify the bodies the investigative efforts did not lead to answers and eventually the
00:11:18
two bodies were released for burial the Allenstown police chief Connor he organized a gravide service complete
00:11:26
with a priest and a minister because they didn't know what religion these these people could be um so you know we
00:11:33
gota I give a little Applause there to the police chief for doing right by the people that that were found these
00:11:39
unknown victims yeah but they might not have wanted a priest or you Pastor or anybody of course but they didn't want
00:11:46
to be in a barrel either right right um so the the two were buried um together in a single steel casket uh and this was
00:11:54
kind of a wellth thought out plan as far as their burial goes because the thought
00:11:59
was that if they ever needed to exume the bodies this would make that whole process a lot easier right they were
00:12:06
buried in St John Baptist cemetery and it's a local uh a local company the Epson memorials service they donated
00:12:15
donated a granite Stone complete with a carved rose and a picture of a woman and
00:12:19
a child holding hands the reading on the stone is pretty vague because again not
00:12:25
knowing who these people are but but it starts off saying here lies the Mortal remains known only to God of a woman and
00:12:33
a girl all right so we we know it's a woman and we know it's a girl but what else do we know do we know anything okay
00:12:39
so both are female victims they're both found November 10th 1985 and we will refer to the grown woman as victim
00:12:47
number one so in 1985 this is what we can tell you about victim number one she was a Caucasian female approximately 23
00:12:54
to 33 years of age she was approximately 5' 4 to 5' 7 in tall MH she was about 120 to 140 lb she had shoulder length
00:13:06
brown hair and she has had some dental work done she had three fillings and she is missing some of her teeth
00:13:15
investigators believed that she had been bludgeon to death she is listed as up number
00:13:21
2174 with the namus organization now we have the girl as well and we will call her Victor number
00:13:29
two she too is and for people that don't know what namus is uh namus is an organization where they they try to
00:13:37
identify uh the the remains unknown remains that are found and they keep a big catalog of those and they can be
00:13:45
accessed by somewhat by the public but mainly it's for uh law enforcement law enforcement resources yeah so like Jane
00:13:51
do's and John do mhm so the girl will call her victim number two she too is a Caucasian female believed to be between
00:13:59
the ages of 5 and 11 she would have been somewhere in the area of 4 2 in maybe 4'
00:14:05
4 in tall and weighing 65 to 85 lbs she too had brown hair uh this is believed to be collar length hair uh she has both
00:14:16
of her ears pierced with two piercings each so double pierced ears and she is listed as up number 2173 with namus so
00:14:26
both were believed to have been bludgeon to death both were dismembered and basically basically they're stuffed into
00:14:33
this barrel and thrown out like trash the investigation as far as the investigation goes let's let's go
00:14:39
through this m I believe and I think that that you'll agree with me that police really did try everything that
00:14:47
they could think of um at the time so in the beginning of this investigation the
00:14:54
New Hampshire State Police started off by sifting through missing people cases from the 7s and the ' 80s right okay but
00:15:01
of course they were unable to identify these bodies in 1986 the New Hampshire State Police they get a strong lead and
00:15:09
they actually believed that this lead was going to solve the case so this is when they suspected two missing people
00:15:15
named Grace Reeb and her 5-year-old daughter Gracie as being the unidentified bodies in the barrel which
00:15:24
would fit with the ages of the victims that we have yeah it was a very strong lead but unfortunately the dental
00:15:30
records proved that the unidentified remains were not those of Grace and her daughter Gracie in 1985 with a small
00:15:38
town you know you'd assume this would be big news well yes of course it was and that's one thing that they used to try
00:15:45
to help gather leads regarding the the identities of these two people uh they they received hundreds of leads uh and
00:15:54
they distributed composite drawings of the victims throughout the northeastern part of the United States and actually
00:16:00
all the way up into Quebec Canada several people in Allenstown said that the unidentified adult woman resembled
00:16:08
someone who had left town with several children a few years ago but this this actually proved to be a dead end as well
00:16:15
because later this woman was found alive in Arizona with her children you would assume that there'd be a lot of dead
00:16:21
ends in this case yeah and and one of one more that we run into here is out of a lot of those lead s that the New
00:16:29
Hampshire State Police received there was a lead about a mother and a daughter who had vanished from an Indian
00:16:34
reservation in Maine not only did the descriptions match the victims found in the barrel but also the time of their
00:16:41
disappearance seemed to match up perfectly with this whole case uh but here is just another case where the
00:16:48
mother and the daughter were actually located alive and they were found to be living just in some other town in Maine
00:16:55
MH um so and you would assume at this maybe not soon but you know it's 1985 so it's more likely that we would have
00:17:02
these you know mothers that were taking their kids to get away from a maybe abusive husband or something and maybe
00:17:09
just didn't want to be found and sometimes people have little to no ties to where they live at all you know and
00:17:16
maybe someone goes and takes a job elsewhere and decides to up and move with their children and they have no
00:17:22
parents local to notify that we've moved yeah or maybe you get like a really good
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offer to move to parts unnown and do a podcast a local podcast there and maybe jump ship you know well we are selling
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uh plots of land and Parts Unknown and they are filling up fast so make sure you reserve yours today use promo code
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garage but I wanted I know that these were all kind of deadend leads here but we wanted to include these because I
00:17:49
didn't want it to make it sound like e you know the police couldn't identify these people so they just kind of sat
00:17:54
around it it wasn't that case at all you know they're they're pouring through missing person's cases they're checking
00:18:00
the databases that are available at the time and they're going out and physically looking for these people to
00:18:07
to determine if if they match up or not and again receiving leads and following up on these leads so I I see a situation
00:18:15
here where we have a police chief of a very small Police Department I think he does the right thing by immediately
00:18:22
bringing in the state the New Hampshire State Police yeah yeah always always a good thing bring bring yeah EX exactly
00:18:28
bring in these people that have the resources that have the funding and have the manow or woman power to to do the
00:18:35
hard work well here's what gets me is just imagine you know first of all just go back to the hunters right you're a
00:18:43
hunter you're just you're hanging out with your brother Pro do you do people drink beer when they hunt I think some
00:18:49
people do yeah don't I've been shooting and stuff but I I'm not a hunter myself but so you find this Barrel one I don't
00:18:58
think I'd have the guts to open the damn thing yeah you made a bit of a noise when we we were going through the barrel
00:19:04
portion and I actually I had I had thought that we would say like like don't open up that Barrel you know what
00:19:09
I mean like cuz I don't know that I would like it it and actually I happened to I wanted to look up what what hunting
00:19:17
season they would be in in New Hampshire at that time right to to actually verify
00:19:22
that it was an actual hunting season because part of me thought well is this strange because in some cases you do
00:19:29
have the perpetrator of a crime is actually the person that will later report right right that they found that
00:19:35
they found the body and so it was actually hunting season but it seemed a little strange to me that these guys are
00:19:40
just out and they're like oh we found a barrel check out that Barrel over there let's go uh let's let's go pop that baby
00:19:47
open and see what's inside well I think what's weird about that is that there there are cards just around there's you
00:19:53
know old cars there's trash so it's not like it's just like this middle of a field and there's a barrel and we should
00:20:00
open it like it's it's kind of odd that they decided we're going to open it but that's creepy enough and then imagine
00:20:07
being the chief of police and this small community and you're going okay now we got these two victims and uh you know I
00:20:14
think it becomes more horrendous because one is a child and that but then you can't even start really the
00:20:20
investigation because you can't even figure out who they are mhm I mean there's so many different levels of
00:20:27
horror here and I actually came across an interview with one of the brothers one of the hunters that was out there
00:20:33
that day that discovered the barrel and this is many years after the fact and they they had said that they got like
00:20:41
some form of PTSD from finding this thing that these guys were like Avid outdoor guys they were always hunting
00:20:50
and they found this thing and it really affected them big time there's some things you can't unsee yeah and and the
00:20:57
one the one brother said you know I you know he said I didn't return to the woods or to a wooded area for almost 10
00:21:05
years because it just kind of he's he's like I got afraid of what I might see out there or what I might find or who
00:21:11
might be out lurking in the in the woods well and if you think with Avid Hunters
00:21:16
that there's possibly you know the hunters would have to deal with you know carcasses of animals so maybe they
00:21:22
wouldn't be as affected by this but this probably takes on a whole different meaning or whole different psych there's
00:21:29
some psychological thing there where this is human remains this is not a deer yeah and you're right it's something you
00:21:37
can't unsee it's probably something that unfortunately creeps into your dreams at
00:21:41
night over and over again so they make this discovery in 1985 and the leads are going dead M
00:21:49
there you know everything's a dead end and it seems like it's just going to we're going to have to chalk it up and
00:21:54
put it to the side and just say we don't even know who the these victims are we we we don't even know what to do with
00:22:01
this case and this is just going to be become cold yeah and you can tell by some of those leads that they were
00:22:06
following that it appears that I bet you these investigators thought several times that they had this thing solved or
00:22:12
at least had placed names to these to these remains and unfortunately they were able never able to do so and
00:22:20
actually not only that the the bad part here though is they end up learning nothing new about the female victims
00:22:27
throughout the course of this investigation uh and I really do think they tried everything that they could
00:22:32
think of um from checking out they they started doing other things too where they were checking elementary schools in
00:22:38
New Hampshire you know they're going to go out and look for a situation where maybe there is a girl that was attending
00:22:45
school one day and no longer was attending the next day right and for whatever reason just wasn't reported
00:22:51
missing or the paperwork didn't get filed or or something mhm the other thing that they did and this sounds EXT
00:22:57
extremely tedious to me uh they were checking medical records for every person um that was listed as missing uh
00:23:07
or or persons that they could find medical records for from everywhere from basically Cape Cod all the way out to
00:23:15
California and they find nothing in this as well I mean think about how long of a
00:23:20
process that has to be MH that's that's a task that I'd give you to do I don't think I'd want to do that so after the
00:23:28
case goes cold we we have a new person enter the story and this is in 2000 there's a state police serent his name
00:23:36
is John Cody and so 15 years later yes he was assigned to take over the case so back then the state of New Hampshire did
00:23:45
not have a cold case unit so what they would do is the state troopers would be assigned old cases you know you put
00:23:52
fresh eyes to an old case so John might been a little bit of fun for the state TR Troopers yeah he they're doing more
00:23:59
like you know footwork mhm investigative type work so John Cody he decides that he is going to go down to the site where
00:24:07
the body where the bodies and the barrel were found uh he wants to see the location for himself and see if he can
00:24:15
search out and maybe find some Clues I mean it seems like a fruitless effort to me because it's 15 years later but I
00:24:22
don't know what what you know the things that John Cody knows uh and who knows what he thinks he could find well I
00:24:28
don't I don't think it's fruitless on the fact that we like we mentioned there's it's almost a little bit of a
00:24:33
junkyard down there so I mean there's possible Clues around every corner this is on May 9th 2000 officer Cody goes to
00:24:41
the location of the privately owned wooded lot that is near the trailer this is near a trailer park and it's also on
00:24:48
the outskirts of the Bear Brook State Park so this is where the story is going to take a very strange twist while
00:24:56
officer Cody is examining the area he located another Barrel this one is approximately 100 yard from the where
00:25:05
the first Barrel was found mhm so just about a football field away from where he found the first Barrel so we have
00:25:11
this situation here Captain right we have the the Cold Case state trooper he's out there checking out this area
00:25:18
mhm he knows what was found in 1985 right he's fully aware he's on the investigation and he's out there and he
00:25:25
spots an identical Barrel knows what there were what was found in the barrel yeah and and so now we have a similar
00:25:32
Barrel not that far away but again it's been 15 years mhm so I mean there's you know the other question is as you're
00:25:40
searching this area do you see any other kind of barrels and containers you probably see a bunch of stuff um but
00:25:48
this is very similar and and he's probably been looking at these pictures for a long time mhm and so what's going
00:25:55
through his mind at that time yeah well I I I would guess that he's probably hoping to find clothing or maybe some
00:26:02
type of murder weapon or or he's probably thinking that there were may have be other things that were dumped at
00:26:08
that same site along with those two first victims and this is different than when the hunters found the barrel
00:26:14
because the hunters find a barrel and it's like well you could open it up it could be anything MH but now you're in a
00:26:19
situation as the detective where there's kind of two possibilities it's nothing or or it's more of the same
00:26:28
or could be be evidence of towards the first victims that were found right this could be the Smoking Gun the big
00:26:35
question would be do you open up this Barrel that of course is the big question but one question that he must
00:26:41
be asking himself too is was this something that was searched in 1985 you know how much of this land and things on
00:26:48
the land were searched in 1985 yeah maybe they miss something mhm uh let's get into that right after this beer
00:26:56
break [Music] this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays maybe
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00:29:13
everybody so in 1985 two Hunters discovered this first barrel with two sets of remains in it
00:29:20
and now we have this situation in 2000 where police Sergeant John Cody is back at the scene and he's looking for Clues
00:29:27
and scoping out the area what he discovers while he's there is he finds a second Barrel opening it up looking for
00:29:35
Clues unfortunately what he does find inside is the sets of two more remains now the question becomes is this just a
00:29:42
Dumping Ground or is this connected to the first Barrel yeah and what they find inside is again these are dismembered
00:29:50
remains uh wrapped in plastic and these people were disposed of like trash just like the first two uh but again we have
00:29:58
a situation here where these are two unidentified bodies what they do learn and what they now know is as follows the
00:30:06
remains found were that of two young girls both younger than the girl that was found with the woman in
00:30:13
1985 so we will call these two victims victim number three and victim number four victim number three or what some
00:30:21
would call the middle child is well this is because she is younger than victim number two the girl found in 1985 and
00:30:29
she is older than the girl that she is found with in 2000 mhm she is believed to be 2 to 4 years of age she is listed
00:30:38
at 3' 10 in tall weight unknown she had wavy brown hair and a pronounced overbite she is listed as up number 2175
00:30:50
on namus now victim number four is the youngest of all of the victims she is believed to be 1 to 3 years of age 2' 5
00:31:00
in tall her weight too is unknown and she had blonde wavy hair she had a large gap in her Upper Front Teeth and she is
00:31:10
listed as up number 2176 on namus both of these girls were Caucasian they just like the first two
00:31:18
victims were believed to have been bludgeoned and they were again dismembered 100%
00:31:25
Caucasian um well we'll we'll get into that the single steel casket idea is going to pay off a bit because in 2000
00:31:33
after the discovery of the new body Barrel this led to the exclamation of the woman and child found in 1985 this
00:31:40
of course is going to be for multiple reasons but one of the things that they really want to do here is to set up a
00:31:46
DNA comparison okay so here is what we have learned from the DNA testing the testing
00:31:53
found that the woman was biologically related to the oldest child this is victim number two the girl that was
00:32:00
found with the woman it is also determined that the woman was biologically related to the youngest
00:32:06
girl found this being victim number four yeah the baby so victim one is biologically related to victim victims 2
00:32:14
and four I believe when DNA was not so Advanced originally they could prove that the woman was related in the sense
00:32:22
that she was either the mother the aunt or possibly a sister to victims 2 and four of course science gets better and
00:32:30
then they are later able to determine with further testing MH that she is in fact maternally related to victims 2 and
00:32:40
four so she is the mother now we have this weird thing here though because there are all these people but who is
00:32:49
this unrelated middle child victim number three is not maternally related to victim number one but there is a
00:32:56
possib ility at the time that she is related to the other girl victims meaning that she could have possibly the
00:33:03
same father or maybe some more distant type relative to the two right so they can't say that she is related to the
00:33:12
other girl victims for sure but they also cannot officially rule that out with knowing the ages of these victims
00:33:17
does that kind of pinpoint a time of when they were actually murdered yes and this is kind of weird to me because this
00:33:24
is what the investigators are able to to say and this is their statement as being
00:33:29
and quote all four victims were killed between 1980 and 1985 and possibly as early as
00:33:38
1977 can't you kind of see the press conference right there and that that being delivered uh between 80 and 85 but
00:33:46
maybe 77 so let's touch on something real quick here the the first two victims were described as having been found in
00:33:54
trash bags inside the 55 gallon barrel victims and four were described as having been found in plastic inside of
00:34:02
the second 55g Barrel but what I did find later was a statement where an office Officer says we believe this
00:34:10
plastic to be trash bags as well matching the trash bags from the first Barrel so maybe maybe that's their
00:34:17
connection so most likely I'm guessing after sitting there for an additional 15 years just like you know the bodies were
00:34:24
far more decomposed than the first two these trash bags could have either been cut up or maybe they deteriorated over
00:34:31
time as well and I know that might sound dumb because you know we're told that plastic does not break down and that is
00:34:37
pretty much true but there are a few types of bacteria that will in fact break down plastic also there's this
00:34:44
thing that happens with sunlight over time that can create a situation that will eventually begin to break down
00:34:50
plastic that the murders take place somewhere and then where they put into bags transported and just maybe happen
00:34:57
to find you know happen stance that they happen to find these barrels mhm because
00:35:01
you're talking about a 55 gallon barrel they're probably somewhat weight to them
00:35:07
yeah so or did the murders take place somewhere else and then put in the barrels and then
00:35:14
transported to the scene in the barrels those are all very good questions and and one thing one theory that locals
00:35:21
have brought up was that they had locals thought that this would have been somebody that would have been local to
00:35:27
the area or knew the area because the area where these barrels were found is not like easily accessible from the
00:35:34
highway or anything like that it's not like somebody just pulled over and dumped these things out and kept on
00:35:38
going and then you have the the other issue because we talked about the trailer park that was close mhm the the
00:35:45
one of the issues there is you know it is the 80s late '70s early ' 80s and what kind of records were kept on
00:35:52
rentals there yeah you know somebody could have been renting you know and who would know when somebody's coming and
00:35:58
going or possibly somebody just shacked up with somebody for a brief period of time and weren't technically listed as a
00:36:04
tenant right on the lease yeah so we have this very weird situation right Captain we have four victims well I
00:36:11
don't even think well it's weird but I think it's it's gruesome I mean we got four bodies that were mutilated and put
00:36:18
into a barrel mhm into two separate barrels all with unknown identities but even more strange there is one you know
00:36:26
there is not even anybody listed in any database that matches this criteria you would think that with the advancement of
00:36:33
DNA and all of the the items that were collected that you would know something about these victims and that maybe you
00:36:41
would have a young mother with two children listed in some database somewhere that you could link to at
00:36:47
least three of the four victims right right you have a mother of two and you'd think that somebody at some point would
00:36:55
come forward and say that's possibly mine uh you know possibly my daughter it's it's almost like these uh
00:37:04
it's almost like these four victims are the the Forgotten it's conceivable that if you could identify any of these that
00:37:10
victims that you would have some kind of leads to go off of but then you have this other girl victim that that is not
00:37:16
related to the others that you know you would think you would have a situation where you have this woman and her two
00:37:22
kids were last seen here or they were last living here right and if we could identify her right or if we could
00:37:29
identify any of them then the question for me would be asking the family why didn't you report her missing right was
00:37:35
she not your favorite daughter so you just just figured all she went off and with somebody and look I know it's a
00:37:40
different time you know late 70s early 80s it's a different time there was a lot of times that people like I said
00:37:47
they ran away from their abusive husbands now rightfully so right right but but people still reported children
00:37:53
as missing and and and I get what you're saying it is a little more believable that a that a mother and a couple of
00:38:00
kids possibly go missing and something tragic happened to them but then you throw this whole wrench in the thing
00:38:06
where you have this unidentified third girl who's not related to the others and so it's weird to have a situation where
00:38:15
you basically have most of one family disappear something tragic happened to them not reported missing and then on
00:38:21
top of that they're linked to this other victim who's not reported missing as well right that's what and blows my mind
00:38:27
you know what I mean it's like you know if it if this was your sister you'd report her missing right if this was
00:38:33
your girlfriend you'd report her missing unless you're the one that put her in the these barrels right but but still or
00:38:41
maybe maybe this person was a orphan maybe there maybe this girl um didn't have family members maybe she was a
00:38:51
Runway the thing that bothers me to on this is what if this what what if the girl okay just just go down on this
00:39:00
little rabbit hole with me mhm but what if this girl was actually abducted you know in the 60s right and
00:39:10
then she was reported missing in the 60s and this person was groomed or was was captive oh like a JC Dugard situation
00:39:20
where it's where you take somebody captive and you keep them as a family member or keep them in your home then
00:39:26
father children with with them right and so now you have these these two children
00:39:32
right mhm and and we know that they're connected to um the oldest victim but we have no record of them going missing
00:39:40
yeah so as much as I there's a part of me that doesn't want to believe that there's I mean look we all have douchy
00:39:47
family members right mhm but do you want me to list mine I don't think we have enough time
00:39:53
on this show met some of his family members not not the best of people um but it seems unlikely to me that nobody
00:40:02
would report this girl missing yeah and you're doing exactly what everybody does
00:40:07
once they review the victim list here your mind starts to run wild and you try to make sense of this whole situation
00:40:13
you kind of start to come up with your own stories was this was this middle child somebody that the mother was
00:40:19
babysitting you know or was this an adopted kid um you know or or was it a kid that she was forced to take care of
00:40:27
mhm you know some psycho kidnapped her when she was a kid or a teenager and that's what they should really be diving
00:40:33
into were these people living with somebody were they living with a man that did this to them and was this man
00:40:40
potentially not living but I I would assume cap they were captive you know they were taken captured by this guy
00:40:47
they were kidnapped this girl was kidnapped and then she was probably forced to have these children and now
00:40:53
there's this other child and she has having to raise that child as well yeah so there there's a question of where is
00:41:00
the father why didn't he report anybody missing but the other thing too is then you have a situation where there has to
00:41:06
be another mother involved in this Inner Circle of victims that didn't report anybody missing too so there's so what
00:41:13
we end up here with is a few answers as far as the DNA testing goes in their findings in 2000 but we all we
00:41:21
ultimately just get a whole bunch of more questions well the other thing that they're able to do with the DNA is to do
00:41:27
the DNA Rec you know uh profile picks M where they can take uh and make an image
00:41:33
of the person based off a DNA yeah and that advances some of the sketches that were released from 1985 they they
00:41:41
further Advanced them and put more likelihood and more likeness to to those sketches in 2000 and the middle child
00:41:48
which we don't know if she is related or not we can't rule that out but to me she
00:41:53
looks like uh possibly Poss possibly Filipino or possibly some kind of Asian dissent yeah and there there are some
00:42:02
differences in her her look compared to the others let's let's step aside though
00:42:07
and go into some suspects because in 2000 they did start coming up with some some suspicious people here uh the New
00:42:15
Hampshire State Police started to look at a serial killer his name was John Edward Robinson uh as being a suspect in
00:42:22
this case now this does make some sense here because John Robinson was apprehended in June of 2000 so less than
00:42:29
1 month after the discovery of the second body Barrel he's apprehended and we see this happen a lot where police
00:42:37
apprehend a serial killer and in some cases if not most cases they can be unaware that they even have a serial
00:42:45
killer running around at all and then they arrest someone for an individual murder and then they quickly become
00:42:50
aware that hey this you know this guy's a serial killer and sometimes that means
00:42:54
okay well now we need to figure out this guy's movements was this his first arrest I mean was he in jail during the
00:43:02
times where these barrels possibly would have been dumped um no he he would have
00:43:07
been out um and you know they want to figure out all the places that he would have lived all the places that he would
00:43:13
have worked Does He travel for work Does He travel a lot for fun all of these things because it always raises the
00:43:19
question if this guy was capable of killing a handful of people here he's probably capable of killing people
00:43:25
elsewhere of course what was his typical victim well that that's the thing and that's why I think
00:43:30
that they they looked at him so Robinson was suspected of having killed eight or
00:43:35
more people in more than one State uh they have linked him to deaths in Kansas and Missouri but the thing that I think
00:43:43
landed him on the suspect list was that he had a similar Mo that would fit this case Robinson had been known to pre upon
00:43:52
single mothers and in some cases he was able to convince or at least attempted to try to convince the victim's families
00:43:59
you know the the mom and dad of the single mother that the victim had moved away of their own will making it look
00:44:06
like you know he had written letters and sent them to moms and dads stating that
00:44:12
the the mother had taken a job elsewhere in another state what a piece of work she was doing well she didn't intend to
00:44:19
move back you know so these parents have their daughter who's actually been out and been murdered and they think that
00:44:26
she's of and fine and so therefore she's not reported as missing yeah yeah note to self if some dope writes you a letter
00:44:33
saying hey uh your daughter's with me and she's fine she just don't want to come home anymore uh that guy's a dope
00:44:41
don't listen to him and uh do your due diligence well just to go into how manipulative this guy was okay um he
00:44:50
there was a situation where he had killed a mother and he had convinced her family that she had moved away
00:44:56
and he needed to get rid of the lady's kid so what he did was he set up some fake adoption and adopted the kid out to
00:45:04
some other couple the only good thing here is that these people thought it was a legit adoption um they weren't like
00:45:13
some weirdos looking to illegally adopt a kid well and it's a very good thing that he didn't kill the kid you know
00:45:19
it's yeah and that shows you why his Mo matches this type of case you know they're looking for somebody that could
00:45:26
make people disappear go unreported um he is ultimately eventually ruled out of this case uh I'm guessing that they're
00:45:35
able to figure out that he would not have been in the area at the time of when they think that these barrels were
00:45:42
place there I'll post I'll post a couple of his pictures online I mean this guy is definitely a creepy looking dude has
00:45:48
this giant glasses you know mhm yeah and one of one of the things they call him they or refer to him as uh Robin they
00:45:56
refer to him as the internet's first serial killer because later in his killing career uh he he started using
00:46:05
chat rooms to to you know hook up with these victims this other site also says uh they call him the internet slave
00:46:13
master MH he's a creepy dude I mean this is this is El Creo this situation though
00:46:21
definitely fits a lot of theories that were going around at the time um you know of course one of the
00:46:27
theories was that this would be the work of a serial killer or maybe even possibly an organized crime member uh
00:46:34
because we've seen throughout time that that organized crime members seem to be pretty good at disposing of bodies um
00:46:42
some have believed that the killer was someone local we discussed that because of the the highway situation and it
00:46:47
being an area that wouldn't be familiar to people outside of the Town um and of course there's also the theory which is
00:46:55
a very plausible theory in my opinion is that the victims could have been killed
00:46:59
by a boyfriend or a husband so starting in 1985 this case quickly became a cold case and then it gets reopened in 2000
00:47:08
yeah but then you know now it's 2017 it send have gone cold again but we've noticed with a lot of these cold cases
00:47:16
and a lot of these armchair detectives as you know we're trying to be I guess uh or support the True Crime community
00:47:23
that people kind of get their pet cases yeah that they keep researching and I know I think I I believe our Facebook
00:47:30
girl aelia actually is really into this case yeah there are a lot of people out there that have followed this for the
00:47:36
entirety of the case we want to give a quick shout out to some very cool people that have worked very hard on this case
00:47:42
if you watched some of the police press conferences um you'll hear the investigators say that they've been
00:47:49
working with agencies and other states right and sometimes they mention that they've been working with a local lady
00:47:55
or local amateur investigator and I actually believe that they are talking about New Hampshire residents Ronda
00:48:00
Randall and Scott Maxwell This is a brother and sister amateur investigative pair and they have spent a minimum of 40
00:48:08
hours a week on this case for the past 5 years wow so in doing our work that I mean that's a lot of dedication yeah
00:48:16
yeah it's amazing I don't know how they have the means to do that but they've put in a lot of hard work on this case
00:48:21
so in doing our research for this case uh we used some of their hard work as a primary source for us as well as the
00:48:28
local agencies as well uh there have been many great groups involved in this investigation but I wanted to make sure
00:48:35
that we included Ronda and Scott because I feel like they have been a great source and a very positive force in this
00:48:41
investigation and they often get left out when police and media are you know kind of rolling through their credits
00:48:48
well cheers to them yeah what's their major Theory uh they they have a few theories that they review and we won't
00:48:55
we won't have to go all the way into every one of them because you can kind of get the gist of each to just put your
00:49:01
toe into the rabbit hole Yeah so so let's go this first Theory here is the Drunken rage Theory so this theory is
00:49:09
sounds like sounds like the captain throwing a beer bottle at the garage wall that is
00:49:15
not true that never never happened maybe once maybe last week uh so the drunken rage theory is a you know the woman with
00:49:24
the two kids is living in some sort of relationship with a man and a kid and in a drunken rage he ends up killing them
00:49:32
all you know this is pretty much similar to the theory that is out there from before that they established that the
00:49:38
mid child is not linked to the woman this being victim number one this is just like the family Annihilator theory
00:49:45
that a man annihilated his entire family either he either a then committed suicide or B moved away and assumed a
00:49:52
new identity not reporting anybody as missing obviously there's also the sexual predator Theory this is that a
00:50:00
sexual predator offers a needy family a place to stay and eventually molests or attempts to molest the children and then
00:50:07
kills to cover up this crime mhm there is also the woman on the Run Theory which is kind of a two-parter so yeah we
00:50:16
kind of brought that up you know the a battered wife mhm yeah the thought here that that a woman on the run with her
00:50:22
two children runs into a situation that ends up being even more worse than what the situation she's running from or a
00:50:29
person they are running from catches up to them at some point uh but as you can see the mid child the one that's not
00:50:37
connected to the woman victim number one this mid child throws a big wrench in a
00:50:42
lot of these different theories and certainly adds a variable that is not easily explained Ronda and Scott they
00:50:49
uncovered some stuff that just doesn't seem like a law enforcement uncovered about the owner of the private property
00:50:54
yeah remember we had said that the barrels were actually found on private property that backs up to the state park
00:51:00
right so the landowner's name is Robert Callahan and Callahan lived on the land during some of the time that these
00:51:07
barrels could have been placed there uh so the thing here is though that Callahan spent time at the New Hampshire
00:51:13
State Prison this would be from 1991 until 1996 he was in there afterwards after
00:51:20
the first Barrel was found and he was in there for sexual assault of a minor oh his red flag and they revealed his court
00:51:27
transcripts to to figure out exactly what this means they didn't go into specifics but regarding those
00:51:33
transcripts they were able to determine that during the course of that trial he admitted to molesting both girls and
00:51:40
boys over a period of time the other thing to consider here is the trailer park that is nearby you brought up the
00:51:48
trailer park about possible people living there right uh people that might have been listed or not listed as living
00:51:54
there and I I do want to say something that I heard from a now famous Ohio detective who turned author and I'm not
00:52:02
going to say her name because I'm not sure how many people she intended for this statement to be heard by but she
00:52:08
had once said that in some of these trailer parks you can't swing a bat without hitting a sexual predator which
00:52:15
which makes you think you know it well note to self I will I'm not going to be living in a trailer park then and I'm
00:52:21
moving out of mine immediately yeah the where we're going to have to move the G out of our trailer park um yeah that's
00:52:28
well but you would think because of the codes now where you have to register and
00:52:33
you can't be a certain distance stuff like that times have certainly changed and that's one thing that we see in this
00:52:40
investigation as it goes on throughout the years anytime technological advancements were made and could provide
00:52:47
additional investigative tools the new the New Hampshire State Police and the FBI they took advantage of new
00:52:54
technology by apply applying it to this case running the necessary test and putting it to work yeah the FBI doesn't
00:53:00
mess around well they did this thing this is some weird stuff here well and and I would just like to say it's to me
00:53:08
just because of what happened with the the the case in Grove City in the Columbus case uh and then the the case
00:53:14
that's helping uh happening right now the ad Deli murders uh in Indiana and now I believe the FBI is involved in
00:53:22
that um you see now with more modern cases because and probably because of technology that when the FBI gets
00:53:30
involved it gets solved quickly mhm and so it's it's fascinating to me that the the FBI has been involved in this case
00:53:37
and they're not any further along well and the thing is and this is my understanding here Captain I could be
00:53:43
completely off base but my understanding is for the FBI to get involved in a case
00:53:48
there has to actually be a break in a federal crime somebody has to break a federal law now one bit
00:53:55
murder is not well but that's technically investigated by a state right so but the loophole in that
00:54:02
situation is kidnapping is considered a federal crime right and therefore you could one could argue that even if you
00:54:10
are even being held captive for a second or two before you're murdered that that's technically kidnapping anytime a
00:54:17
person is somewhere where they don't want to be is technically kidnapping according to the definition so oh so
00:54:24
like if you're at your job you don't want to be there well is that can can I call my boss is keeping me here you
00:54:32
might be stretching I just want to go to the garage and have a couple beers let's
00:54:36
talk about this isotope testing because this is this is yeah this is some weird stuff isotope yes isotope so basically
00:54:44
due to chemicals and pollutants that are in our environment and I'm sure there are several other things that I don't
00:54:50
understand nor could I explain uh that are involved but they can determine where someone may have lived basically
00:54:57
by determining where they wouldn't have lived right does that make sense and I think a lot of this has to do with
00:55:04
drinking water um and so here's the situation right they do this isotope testing so for victim one and her two
00:55:12
children this would be you know victim 2 and victim four they have a map of the United States showing that she could
00:55:20
have been from the Northeast and there is some of the Midwest on there and some of the West Coast as well M but it
00:55:28
basically which sounds like I just named the entire United States yeah you basically pulled the uh well they were
00:55:34
probably dumped or probably murdered between 80 85 maybe 76 so the thing here is though when you look at the map it uh
00:55:44
it really does eliminate a good 2/3 maybe 3/4 of the United States so it does narrow it down quite a bit they do
00:55:53
have a separate map containing some of the same testing results this being for the third girl victim number three and
00:56:00
the areas where she could have lived or been from closely resemble that of the other victims however the places she
00:56:07
could have lived in the Northeast are a lot smaller um so so some very interesting stuff here right so you
00:56:15
basically make a circle of one make a circle of the other and then there's probably going to be a section that's
00:56:19
overlapping and then you can really kind of focus there mhm and the other thing we see is like you touched on the
00:56:27
advancement as far as the facial reconstructions go for the four victims which have changed quite a bit over the
00:56:34
years as well again this is due to advancements in technology the most obvious in this situation would be
00:56:40
victim number one remember we said that she was missing some of her teeth right well that changed her appearance greatly
00:56:47
because eventually they were able to put together a facial reconstruction with what she would have looked like with
00:56:54
teeth of course you know this changes the appearance of the lower half of one's face almost entirely yeah and originally
00:57:02
we have evidence of blunt force trauma to the victim's heads but the law enforcement is able to shine a little
00:57:10
more light on possibly what happened to these uh victims yeah and that that's something that I really question here
00:57:16
because one thing that I've noticed that have changed in the the presentation of
00:57:21
this investigation in the last few years is that regarding the two younger girls
00:57:27
you know they they originally stated that they shared the same cause of death as the two older victims um which we
00:57:34
said originally was listed as being bludgeon um but to be more precise like the captain said it's actually blunt
00:57:41
force trauma to their heads now this the reason why I question this is I'm not certain if this was something that they
00:57:48
weren't making well known at the time or throughout the years or if it was something that they actually had to
00:57:54
scientifically reconstruct and have to spend a whole bunch of time on this situation to to determine that that was
00:58:01
in fact the situation I mean we have something that's very hard to investigate first of all when you don't
00:58:08
know the victims and their names but on top of that you have dismembered bodies that are found in these barrels that
00:58:14
create all kinds of problems when you're trying to forensically put this back together well right and then this case
00:58:20
really spans over 20 years and so the advancement of Technology you would think that you would be Leaps and Bounds
00:58:27
above where you were at on doing an autopsy even if you don't think that the the original autopsies were bad it
00:58:34
doesn't it makes a lot of sense just go back and do them again I mean back in you know ' 85 you know most houses
00:58:41
didn't have computers now people were walking around with computers in their pockets or on on their uh watches MH
00:58:48
yeah and I wonder if some of those autopsies contained speculation in them um I know that it's supposed to just be
00:58:54
report fact however if you cannot make a proper determination you can leave what would
00:59:01
be called an expert opinion now when you exume those bodies many years later again advancements in technology maybe
00:59:08
they're able to to actually determine that this is it what a frustrating case for law enforcement because not only do
00:59:15
you you're trying to figure out what happened to these individuals then you're also trying to find who is
00:59:21
responsible for this but you can't even get the first part together you can't even figure out who the actual victims
00:59:28
are and this this goes on like we said we're going on almost uh over 30 years now yeah and and it's not for the lack
00:59:36
of not trying right I mean we see the efforts that are being put forth uh this and efforts in multiple decades Yeah by
00:59:45
several agencies by multiple States even armchair you know amateur sleuths getting involved um this is a a case for
00:59:55
for a case where you don't have the identities of the victims this is a case that's huge and it's it's Spann over the
01:00:04
over across the USA you know looking for these people in every state medical records elemente schools uh everything
01:00:12
that they could do you have the you have the first Barrel in 1985 then the second
01:00:18
Barrel in 2000 and if that's not strange enough nothing none of this leads to two
01:00:24
answers yeah but this case is going to take a Twist in 2017 yeah it's this thing's going to
01:00:32
bust wide open um but I do and we we'll get to that tomorrow yeah because we're running out of time here but I do have
01:00:38
to throw this out here Captain this is this is one of the strangest cases I've ever I've ever read about it might be
01:00:46
the strangest case that we've reviewed so far and we've we've reviewed some very strange and odd cases and yeah and
01:00:54
we'll dive into that tomorrow and we'll dive in that to and we'll dive into that tomorrow I
01:01:04
want to I want to thank everybody for uh all the feedback on the Brandon Lawson case I did take it to some buddies of
01:01:12
mine everybody was asking for an update I did take it to some some of my audio engineering buddies to look at we just
01:01:20
couldn't really come up with anything clearer on what we found here right so we're just kind of stuck at this point
01:01:26
maybe uh a as technology gets more advanced in that case that will help us out with that 911 call if you are
01:01:33
looking for an update you can go to our website true Crim garage.com there are a
01:01:38
lot of people that have posted things that they think that they're hearing what Brandon is saying as well as
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theories that they think that's going on and interesting enough to me a lot of the people chiming in seem to be from
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Texas that are able to offer a little more insight as to the area that that case took place and make sure you
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good be kind and don't [Music] [Applause] litter [Music] you can live out your Master Chef dreams
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