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subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for [Music] details [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
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you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that got me a
00:01:51
MOG why for Christmas and one month later my house is completely destroyed burnt to the ground he is the captain
00:01:58
not my fault bro I gave you the the instructions you dummy it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for
00:02:04
listening and thanks for telling a [Music] friend tonight we are drinking Secret
00:02:13
Stairs by Trillium Brewing Company garage grade 4 and 1 12 bottle caps out of five secret stairs this is a stout
00:02:21
that is bold and balanced and unlike most Stouts it's not syrupy or too sweet but there are hints of caramel in here
00:02:28
Secret Stairs was brought To Us by These Fine members of the garage crew first up
00:02:33
we have DD in aasa Oklahoma and a big we like your jib to Tiffy and barberon Ohio
00:02:39
all right let's go down to one of the garage's favorite States and say hi and thanks to Brad and Katie in Texas also
00:02:45
in Texas we have Eric and Austin and in the little State of Rhode Island we have
00:02:50
Alisa and we give a big thank you to Sarah and jlin Missouri and last but not least we have Tim and Cindy of Full
00:02:57
Metal Rock in Las Vegas thanks to everybody for filling up the fridge for this week's show if you want to help us
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out with next week's show go to True Crim garage.com and click on the Donate button you can follow us on social media
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Instagram Facebook Twitter all that stuff @ True Crime garage and if you want to keep up with all of my beer
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Adventures follow me on untapped at True Crime garage and you'll notice when he's
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on his app he's a wasling all right Captain that's enough of the business everybody gather around
00:03:26
grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause]
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[Music] crime on August 7th 1972 in Springfield New Jersey parents Salvatore and
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Florence dama tried to call the police they wanted to report their daughter Janette who is 16 years old either is
00:03:59
missing or as a runaway they were told that their daughter would have to have been missing for at least 24 hours
00:04:06
before they could take the report earlier that day Janette had had at least one argument with a parent before
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leaving her home to venture off to her friend's house which was 8 Miles Away the plan was she was going to walk 3
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miles by herself and take the train the rest of the way to her friend's house she was also scheduled to work at her
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part-time job later after going to her friend's house she never arrived at work she never arrived at her friend's home
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we did cover some speculation and some rumors regarding of where she may have gone that day however there are people
00:04:44
to suggest that either she did go to this party or there was no party at all we also suggested that that could be
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just poor recollection on the on the part of these young teenagers who are being asked questions
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why are they being asked questions because not only is this girl missing but approximately 6 weeks later her body
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is found in a wooded area on a cliff known as the devil's teeth right and so they're asking her they're asking these
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kids about these events that took place 6 weeks prior now we got into the whole thing of whether this was a situation
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where the parents had reported her as missing or as a runaway the police state that the depal family called in a
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situation that their daughter had run away right the police would later give different accounts on this situation
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because they were interviewing the parents and according to the police it was the depas that had reported Janette
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as a runaway police would later say that a runaway situation is not really investigated that they they give a
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description of the girl they give some brief information to their beat cops right and if nobody sees the girl they
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they don't really do anything you might kick the bushes a little bit but you don't spend a lot of time working on a
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situation where somebody left willingly from their home now they did interview janette's
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parents the problem that investigators had with with her parents was this they claimed
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that the answers that they got from her parents regarding the the final day the day that Janette had disappeared these
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answers were short and often vague answers and almost with no details and the police did not seem to like this
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they thought that the the the Palmas would have more answers for them they would have some details some information
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that might provide some leads into the eventual murder of their daughter but just a few days after their daughter was
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found the mother said some odd things to the newspaper yes and this a lot of people in the public took some issue
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with these statements now this was Florence D Palma this was just two days after the discovery of janette's body
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she tells a local newspaper this is the new Yark Star Ledger and quot she says she had resigned herself to her
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daughter's death weeks ago now mind you she's saying weeks ago and yet her daughter's body was just found two days
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before giving the statement to the newspaper and she states that the Lord had told her and had gave her peace
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weeks before finding the body of her daughter and some would point out that that suggests that maybe the parents
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knew something or maybe the parents had some kind of involvement in the the actual murder or what took place with
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their daughter yeah so maybe the parents know a little more or maybe it's just some other intuition that she eventually
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felt like she had to accept well when I find out a little bit more information about the parents and about the dupa
00:07:53
family I don't find her statement to be so incriminating let's say um yeah we have statements from her other daughter
00:08:02
Cindy now Cindy was older than Janette from my understanding there were two other daughters living in the home with
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Janette now I said that they had a large family like seven or eight kidss I'm assuming the other kids had grown and
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moved out of the home but it's often reported that the two remaining daughters you know after they found the
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body of Janette newspaper articles will say the two remaining daughters so I'm assuming just two of them live there now
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Cindy is the only one that I could find that would give statements that would talk about this case for years to come
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um I wish we had a little more information from Cindy as to what was going on with inside the walls of that
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dama home during the course of when Janette was still missing and the body had not been found because I'm assuming
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that if her mother had resigned herself to her daughter's death weeks ago before
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before the discovery of the body that there would be things going on with inside that home you know you would
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think that she would almost be would she be comforting her husband or her husband
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comforting her you would you would think there would be a lot of dread inside that home prior to the finding of the
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body but the reason why I say that it I don't find that that statement to be so incriminating is one thing we have to
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keep in mind here and factor in in this situation is that the diploma family especially the parents were extreme
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religious from my understanding they went to the way that it's been reported was
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they were not just the type that that that attended church on a weekly basis that they would often go multiple times
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per week and that they were extremely religious and I that's why I don't find it so
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incriminating because I could see with somebody being incredibly religious and their daughter having been gone for
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three four weeks I mean you start hope you lose hope you lose a little bit of Hope every day each day as it gets
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further and further from the last time that you saw your child and at some point you might just have to put that
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faith in God and you might be looking for answers and she may have come to this conclusion or or felt that felt
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that she was being given this information well this is part of the reason why this case to me is so
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frustrating because for every bit of information that you think maybe you're going to get closer to having a picture
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of what was going on mhm it seems like there's a counter story so one story is that the family is really religious and
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so again she had this uh God told her your child passed accept it mhm okay that's one story the other story is that
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the family is not that religious and that one of their daughters started going to a different church that was not
00:10:56
their denomination right but then the family started going to that church and then there's reports that Janette is
00:11:05
highly involved in church Works uh for some teen crisis center type thing maybe crisis center is not the right word but
00:11:15
um you know where she's like mentoring yeah and there's other reports that she was not involved in church at
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all that she possibly was involved in like Witchcraft and so that's what's so frustrating about this case the same
00:11:29
it's the same thing we saw when we discussed janette's character what kind of person she may have been what kind of
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teenager she could have been yeah it's you have half the room telling us that she was super religious and she was
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super into going to church and she was uh trying to Mentor some of her peers to find religion and to join the church and
00:11:48
then you have the other half of the room saying almost the opposite the exact opposite saying no her parents drug her
00:11:55
there her family drug her there multiple times a week I think they called it a drug and alcohol counselor which was
00:12:03
weird to have a drug and alcohol counselor be 16 but I think it was more of a system set up
00:12:10
where if if a teenager was having issues where they could call and it would be somebody of their own age to say hey
00:12:18
come to the church we love you we we care about you let's get you some help if that makes any sense well yeah
00:12:26
because you would have the that would provide some the opportunity to discuss what's going on inside their life and
00:12:33
things maybe that they've experimented with without the fear of getting in trouble you know from anybody without
00:12:39
their parents finding out or or a teacher or something like that yeah so supposedly she did do this you know but
00:12:46
again there's probably a story out there that says that she never even went to that church well while we're on the
00:12:52
subject of these newspaper articles there were several that came out within the two weeks of the discovery of her
00:12:58
body um and there were several that of significance in my opinion there are two that I would like to discuss and here
00:13:06
are the headlines from these two the first one is uh headlined girls sacrificed in witch right and the second
00:13:13
is deepalma say Slayers possessed by demons okay I think we should go through both of these because this is where this
00:13:22
might be where the the Genesis of where these rumors about Witchcraft and Satanism having been involved in
00:13:31
janette's murder let's start with the one that's called uh Girl sacrifice and witch right yeah and here's the
00:13:37
important little snippet from from that article MH it starts investigation into the death of 16-year-old Janette dealma
00:13:46
is focusing on elements of black Witchcraft and Satan worship a review of death scene photos according to reports
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is leading authorities to believe the girl's death may have been in the nature of a sacrifice pieces of wood at first
00:14:02
thought to be at the scene by chance are now seen as symbols detectives throughout Union County have been
00:14:09
alerted to the possibility that a cult or a cult member played a part in the death a search party discovered her
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remains she had been missing 6 weeks on September 19th in a wooded area of a quarry at top a 40ft cliff about 400
00:14:26
yard from Shunpike Road one Searcher said two pieces of wood were crossed on the ground over her head
00:14:34
more wood framed the body like a coffin another person who was there said I guess if you were looking for signs they
00:14:42
were there all right just go ahead and read the next one so we can dive into both of them at the same time and I'm
00:14:49
going to kind of give a uh summary of this article because it's it's a bit longer but it starts by saying parents
00:14:55
say daughter may have been murdered by persons who whose bodies are possessed by demons then the article mentions the
00:15:03
following incidents of Witchcraft in the area also stating authorities said that
00:15:09
janette's death may be linked to a coven or witchcraft assembly in the area and what's especially troubling here is this
00:15:18
is the first mention of of this situation this article also mentions acts of animal sacrifice this taking
00:15:26
place in a reservation near by stating that State Park police found these acts committed against dogs cats and even a
00:15:35
goat the reporter wrote about a bowl of blood that was found the bowl of Blood also contained the bodies of pigeons who
00:15:44
had had their necks snapped I think it's important to point out though when we're
00:15:48
talking about the animal sacrifices that the State Park police had found yeah that this was in a nearby reservation
00:15:56
this was not in the same area where janette's body was found it's I think it's key to point
00:16:02
that out yeah but how many miles away I don't I don't know off the off the top of my head here I mean look if
00:16:10
it's 5 to 10 miles in that radius could be linked possibly what I'm getting at though is yeah is there possible that
00:16:18
it's spill over or at some point that they moved into another area yeah that could happen but what I what I want to
00:16:25
make sure that I point out here is those acts those things that they believed were going on in that reservation were
00:16:31
not going on in the area where janette's body was eventually found they found no
00:16:36
evidence of that at any time right there was rumors that there was witchcraft activities going at Devil's skull or
00:16:45
Devil's teeth but those were just rumors and maybe maybe the name itself Devil's
00:16:50
teeth inspires those rumors yeah this again Devil's teeth is a difficult place to get to mhm so you know you
00:16:59
know were a bunch of devil worships going up there to perform to acts uh probably not likely right and it sounds
00:17:08
like they were leaving I I hate to be gross but they were leaving the carcasses and they were leaving evidence
00:17:14
of such at this reservation like it was pretty easily found you know they were finding blood and they were finding
00:17:21
bodies of animals now I could find one story specifically talking about chickens and I know that that newspaper
00:17:29
article referenced dogs cats and a goat right however I couldn't find any things
00:17:36
specifically saying that they had found carcasses of a dog cat or even a goat right again these could just be
00:17:44
rumors then the other rumors that are weird are these items that were left at her body these Blair Witch
00:17:51
type items that would be be left at the at our sacrifice scene right yeah well and that's what I want to kind of focus
00:18:00
in on we should push away the stuff that's going on may or may not be going on at the reservation and talk
00:18:06
specifically about what was found with her body and at the crime scene now there are three generally three
00:18:13
different reports of what are considered to be likely what was found there because this is all over the shop
00:18:21
Captain we have different people saying different things were found at the crime
00:18:25
scene the first one I want to discuss is we have the police officer officer Dawn that we
00:18:31
had spoke about yesterday he was involved in he was the one that responded to the call about the arm at
00:18:37
the apartment complex and he was part of the search he was one of the first people to see her body at top of that
00:18:44
Cliff yeah now what he described at the scene was he described a single cross a single wooden cross now I have to we we
00:18:54
have to be clear here this is not a a wooden cross that somebody built and had nailed into the ground this is what he
00:19:01
describes as a a large stick crossed over by a smaller stick that would form the appearance of a cross lying on the
00:19:08
ground this would have been just above if you were at the feet if you were at her feet looking at the body this would
00:19:15
be just above her head right so some people would say it's like you know a a headstone almost right but he also says
00:19:24
that it looks like there was a tree and that possibly a tree just fell over over
00:19:29
mhm and therefore making the cross he says between the cross itself and janette's body were four or five stones
00:19:39
that looked like they were placed around her head giving the the image of almost
00:19:45
a Halo right those are the only things that he describes finding there or seeing before he's told by detectives to
00:19:53
get off the cliff and go down and tell tell people to back up and get away we have another account this is from a
00:20:01
girl named Lisa she's about she would have been about janette's age and I don't want to give her full name but she
00:20:09
says that she went to the crime scene two days after the body was found and when she got there the crime scene tape
00:20:17
the police tape was still they had still roped off the area right but that there
00:20:21
was nobody guarding the area so she went up there this is almost like a like a standby me situation you know going out
00:20:29
to see a body but they've already removed janette's Body by this time yeah this is not as cool I mean think about
00:20:36
that if stand by if Stephen King said hey I'm going to make a movie where they go you want to see a
00:20:42
body yeah and they go but there is no body do you want to go see where it happened not as cool right hey for
00:20:50
anybody out there listening this is just my own opinion the movie Stand By Me incredibly good the the book that it's
00:20:57
based from the body very good that's something people should check out anyway let's go get into what Lisa says that
00:21:04
she had saw there now remember we said that that janette's body had kind of sunken into the ground right so when
00:21:12
Lisa went up there you could still see the outline of where the body once was so it's not like you she's looking at
00:21:19
some random spot she's looking at a spot that that is correct and what she described was that
00:21:26
there was a large log that would have run uh above where her head would have been and then a smaller log that would
00:21:35
have been right at her feet and then to each side of the body were multiple makeshift crosses from from small
00:21:45
branches yeah this gives a vague picture of maybe a a coffin like thing or resting area for Janette some some say
00:21:58
that they were building kind of an altar and that's where the sacrifice had to happen was on this altar you know but
00:22:05
you know not not where we look at it as like you know I was raised Catholic so you think of altar being something that
00:22:11
was raised right but this was you know basically we're creating an altar on the ground mhm like a perimeter around the
00:22:18
body right so not so much a a casket the third account is what is described according to newspaper accounts and this
00:22:28
is kind of a combination of the two we have the cross that we spoke about that o officer Dawn saw above the head and
00:22:36
then we have the log going up by the head area the log also at the feet area and then the body is positioned between
00:22:46
two logs as well giving a full outline of either an altar or a coffin like uh situation now with inside that perimeter
00:22:54
that was created by those four logs we have multiple makeshift small crosses created by branches small branches on
00:23:04
both sides of the body but this is coming from Lisa this is the from newspaper accounts okay so we so we have
00:23:12
Lisa's accounts that are similar to this newspaper account well in a sense it's it's almost
00:23:20
like officer Dawn's account is minimal you know there he's only finding a few items there and then Lisa is a little
00:23:29
more extravagant there's the addition of the logs with multiples makeshift crosses on both sides of the body and
00:23:36
then the newspaper account is like a combination of the two but on steroids where you have everything involved and
00:23:44
you have you have a bunch of stuff surrounding this body so what's your gut telling you what I think Captain is I I
00:23:52
favor officer Dawn's account as well as the teenager Lisa's account rather than the new newspaper and I have nothing I
00:23:59
have very little to base this off of but the newspaper account seems to be the most extravagant it seems to contain the
00:24:07
most items up there and oh right but they're they're in the business of selling stories right it it could just
00:24:13
be sensationalism you know for the purpose of their articles which you and I absolutely hate that I I think I
00:24:21
question that if any of the writers had even been to the location I think that they were probably basing what they
00:24:28
thought was there off of other people's stories and off of other people's accounts of what they may or may not
00:24:34
have saw okay so what was found by the body in my opinion yeah um I I think that it was probably like I said I think
00:24:43
that the more accurate statements would be either Lisa's account or officer Don's account so okay so to contradict
00:24:51
officer Don's account we have another officer that says yes there were Sticks and Stones up there near the bot body
00:24:58
the body was found in the middle of the woods and in this officer's opinion the Sticks and Stones were just there by
00:25:04
chance they weren't arranged by anyone nobody had placed them there that they were just there because Sticks and
00:25:09
Stones exist in the woods right now officer Dawn you know these two are not really these two officers aren't really
00:25:17
saying one is right and one is is wrong you know he's saying Don would have seen
00:25:22
Sticks and Stones up there but I don't believe they were arranged now officer Don would say well this officer was only
00:25:29
up on top of that Hill for a very short period of time before being asked to leave and what I believe I saw appeared
00:25:37
to have been purposely placed in position near the body the thing here is under this
00:25:44
situation both of these officers would have been asked to leave the area relatively quickly after finding the
00:25:49
body where you have somebody like Lisa who if she did venture out there two days later
00:25:56
she's she's looking at something and not being removed she she can stand there as
00:26:01
long as she likes and observe whatever is there whatever's present now keep in mind it is in fact 2 days after the body
00:26:09
was removed from there somebody could have altered the scene I think that Le's could be slightly exaggerated she I'm
00:26:17
just factoring in that she's a teenager I'm factoring in that she might have been scared while she was up there that
00:26:23
also she's like think about what the one officer said yes of course there were sck and Stones up there it's the woods
00:26:29
for crying out loud right I think maybe she may have seen things up there and put into a little more uh thought that
00:26:37
was necessary into what items she was looking at I think the answer for me and what my belief would be is that it's
00:26:44
somewhere between officer Dawn's account and Lisa's account of what was seen up there and it's also possible that
00:26:51
somebody went up there and had these little crosses made out of sticks and put them down mhm as like a Memorial to
00:26:58
the girl I mean you see that all the time somebody dies in a car wreck you know two days later it's like there's a
00:27:04
bunch of crosses that put somebody put down could be something like that but from all the accounts and all the
00:27:11
interviews I've heard the majority of the police officers say there wasn't anything there right I'm not
00:27:19
going to go too far-fetched with this Lisa Turtle story you know there there was no
00:27:26
crosses there was no nothing because that would have been reported by multiple cops if there were crosses
00:27:32
there weren't were there some sticks that were placed in certain you know look it could be as simple as the area
00:27:39
was altered before or after the murder MH and that's why there there is some sign
00:27:46
of any of that but to me there is no sign of that this was a sacrifice or witchcraft yeah it's it's a strange
00:27:54
situation because like you said we have multiple officers saying that they there
00:27:57
was nothing up there to suggest that and then we have two of the officers one who
00:28:02
says at the scene hey this looks like Witchcraft and then another officer officer Dawn stating I saw a cross and I
00:28:09
saw some Stones arranged near the [Music] head this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays
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cheers captain now I tell you what regardless of what was found up at the scene okay because it's all over the
00:30:58
shop either nothing was found some items were found or a whole bunch of items were found that were resembled items
00:31:06
that would be satanic in nature or witchcraft the thing here is we there was a great book written about this case
00:31:15
and it's called the death on the devil's teeth and this was written by Jesse Pollock and Mark Moran now one thing
00:31:22
these two guys did these guys are authors I believe they work for or founded something called weird New Jersey or
00:31:29
weird NJ which I guess is like a b anually publication that comes out for uh weird things that happen in the state
00:31:38
of New Jersey is that right Captain by anually does that mean twice a year or every other year I always get confused
00:31:44
when I hear that I but I believe their publication comes out twice a year now one thing these guys did which was great
00:31:52
was they took the information of what was speculated to have been found at the scene
00:31:57
according to officer Dawn according to the teenager Lisa that we discussed and according to the newspaper Accounts at
00:32:04
the time and they took this information and they presented it to some experts in
00:32:09
the field of of Witchcraft and Satanism to get their opinions on you know if if in fact these items were found at the
00:32:17
scene what can we make of it right okay so the the first Professor that they talk to and this is Ronald Hutton now he
00:32:26
teach courses on contemporary paganism at the University of Bristol he says that the items that he sees in the items
00:32:35
that he has been told and described to him as being placed at the at the murder scene at the crime scene and his opinion
00:32:43
are not even items considered to be that of a pagan or ritual magic uh relationship he says that um regardless
00:32:53
of what or wasn't found at the scene items described in his opinion these are all traditionally Christian symbols that
00:33:00
would have been found there we talked about cross-like things being found uh maybe a coffin or an alter like
00:33:07
situation being found at the crime scene right which hence my idea that somebody
00:33:11
could have left these after the body was removed now another professor teaching on the subject points out that uh and I
00:33:19
was happy to find this because I I know little about this subject uh I like to read about cold cases um but crun you
00:33:28
know I thing out sorry sorry but you know I know a lot of people think that Satanism
00:33:35
and Witchcraft and things like that can come up a lot in these cases and actually that's just not a thing um when
00:33:42
it does come up it's usually simply a bad lead or misunderstanding and the reports on
00:33:49
Satanism SL witchcraft being involved it's often described very Hollywood like presented in ways that seem cheesy and
00:33:59
fake to me so I was happy to find this something I had thought this is from Dr Jason Koy professor of history at the
00:34:07
College of Charleston he's a renowned expert in the field of Witchcraft and he says modern-day witches or wiccans have
00:34:16
nothing to do with historical Witchcraft and are generally peaceful environmentalist and feminist who who
00:34:24
practice a sort of new age neop Pagan religion mhm which he says seems to have nothing to do with this case at all
00:34:32
nothing that was presented to him and nothing to do with uh janette's murder in his opinion he states that this looks
00:34:40
more like the work of some psychopath with a type of religious fixation well some of those ideas that he was talking
00:34:47
about kind of get brought up in the west Memphis 3 case mhm where Daman talks about that he wasn't was more so a
00:34:56
spiritual View and almost feminist views as well mhm yeah and that's one thing I
00:35:03
had always thought like I said I knew very little about this but that was always my understanding that these are
00:35:08
not traditionally violent people looking to go out and make actual sacrifices on
00:35:14
humans or or animals uh while we're on that subject though Captain I want to mention though I you had asked about
00:35:21
where uh regarding the location of those quote unquote animal sacrifices that we
00:35:26
disc right that took place at a place called the what Chung I hope I said that right
00:35:32
it's not right I did not say that I'm not terribly off I can't be terribly off because it's w a t c h u n reservation
00:35:42
now I don't know the location in proximity to where her body was found well what good are you but what I do
00:35:47
know is I'm just reviewing my notes here that according to police they refer to these as uh santoria acts that they
00:35:56
found evidence of this in the uh reservation and this is the the largest park in Union County so it's in the same
00:36:05
county as where she was found and the reservation is a 1,945 acre Forest so a very extremely
00:36:15
large area now we pulled that information from the article that was titled the Palmas say Slayers possessed
00:36:23
by demons there was also one thing that was extremely interesting near the end of this article and that is that and
00:36:32
this is straight from the article stating quote the investigation has also been widened to include a review of the
00:36:39
list murders well Captain we have not even got to this portion of the case yet not Lisk right list some people hear
00:36:48
that and they hear Lisk l i k but it's list yeah like I wrote a list I was researching this case and it was like
00:36:56
this might have something to do with the Lisk murders and I thought Long Island serial killer again it goes back to 72
00:37:03
God oh my God this is so fascinating then I realized I was a [ __ ] so why would why would they suggest that the
00:37:11
investigation according to this article and quote the investigation has also been widened to include the review of
00:37:16
the list murders well we have to paint a picture here Captain is not a pretty the list
00:37:22
murders so the list murders are a a a family was murdered in this area just months before Janette had gone missing
00:37:32
okay and this is considered to be one of the most famous cases from the state of
00:37:38
New Jersey you got to keep in mind though the community was still suffering and still trying to heal and and and
00:37:47
still trying to make sense of this horrible crime that had happened just months before this teenage girl goes
00:37:54
missing and then is ultimately found dead in the Woods right now the list murders were not discovered until
00:38:00
December 7th of 1971 remember our Janette DePalma case is taking place in August and September
00:38:09
of 1972 so less than a year later what we have here though Captain is upon a welfare check to a home
00:38:19
occupied by The List family mhm now this home is referred to as a mansion and it
00:38:27
was given the name Breeze null and I don't know if that was given to the home by the family or if it had had that name
00:38:33
prior to their purchasing of this Mansion but police are responding to a welfare call at this seemingly
00:38:41
well-to-do family MH we have a home where what was reported is that the family would be gone on some type of
00:38:50
vacation visiting the um the mother's mother who lived in North Carolina and they had told people that they would be
00:38:58
there for several weeks the the milk deliveries had stopped at the home the mail had been stopped as well as
00:39:06
newspapers but there were lights that were left on inside the home day and night and apparently no activity going
00:39:13
on within or around the home finally neighbors began to get concerned as the lights began to burn out one by one and
00:39:23
it almost appeared like the family had left the home and they were never going to return mhm so when the police respond
00:39:29
to this welfare call they decide to enter the home they find an unlocked window in front of the house towards the
00:39:36
front of the home and they decide to enter the home through there as they made their way through the home they
00:39:41
could hear what sounded like either Symphony music or religious music like being played over a
00:39:47
radio they made their way to now mind you this was referred to as the ballroom I believe which you would think would be
00:39:55
like some big grandioso room right but it's was 2et by 2 feet very small it it was a ballroom for
00:40:04
a puppeteer is for all those tiny dancers so they get to what was referred to as the ballroom and when they get
00:40:12
there the room's not as large as one would would expect to see but they find the bodies of of children and of a woman
00:40:23
and they are lying face down on on sleeping bags now all of the victims had been shot in the
00:40:31
head the police are pretty frightened by this discovery and shocked to say the least but now they're going to move room
00:40:39
by room throughout the home they're kind of expecting that they could encounter a
00:40:45
killer that is hiding in a corner somewhere in one of these rooms with a gun ready to kill whoever finds them
00:40:51
yeah Psycho Killer so as they move room to room they make their way to what what
00:40:56
is in fact the man of the home uh the man of the house it's his office and this is John list it's his office and on
00:41:05
the desk they they see a series of letters and they find an envelope that is addressed to John List's pastor this
00:41:16
is Reverend Eugene Ray Winkle the letter is dated November 9th 1971 and it reads
00:41:26
dear Pastor I'm very sorry to add this additional burden to your work I know that what has been done is wrong from
00:41:34
all that I have been taught and that any reason that I might give will not make it right but you are the one person that
00:41:43
I know that while not condoning this will at least possibly understand why I had to do this I wasn't earning anywhere
00:41:51
near enough to support us everything I tried seemed to Fall to Pieces true we could have gone bankrupt and maybe gone
00:42:01
on welfare but that brings me to my next Point knowing the type of location one would have to live in plus the
00:42:10
environment for the children plus the effect on them knowing that they were on welfare was just more than I thought
00:42:18
they could handle I know that they were willing to cut back but this involved a lot more than
00:42:25
that with Pat being so determined to get into acting I was also fearful as to what
00:42:32
this might do to her continuing to be a Christian I'm sure it wouldn't have helped also with Helen not going to
00:42:42
church I knew this would harm the children eventually in their attendance I had continued to hope that
00:42:50
she would begin to come to church soon but when I mentioned that to her she just blew up and stated that she wanted
00:42:59
her name taken off of the church rolls again this could have only given an adverse result for the children's
00:43:06
continued attendance so that is the sum of it if any one of these had been the condition
00:43:15
we might have pulled through but this was too much at last I'm certain that all have gone to
00:43:22
heaven now if things had gone on who knows knows if that would be the case of course mother got involved
00:43:31
because doing what I did to my family would have been a tremendous shock to her at this
00:43:37
age therefore knowing that she was also a Christian I felt it best that she be relieved of the Troubles of this
00:43:47
world that would have hit her after it was all over I said some prayers for all of
00:43:54
them from from the hym book that was the least I could do now for the final Arrangements Helen and the children have
00:44:05
all agreed that they would prefer to be cremated please see to it that the cost are kept low for mother she has a plot
00:44:16
at the church Cemetery also I don't know what will happen to the books and other personal
00:44:24
things but to the extent possible I would like for them to be distributed as you see
00:44:31
fit some books might go into the school or church library originally I had planned this
00:44:39
for November 1st All Saints Day but travel Arrangements were delayed I thought it would be an appropriate day
00:44:48
for them all to get to heaven as for me please let me be dropped from the congregation role
00:44:57
I Leave myself in the hands of God's justice and mercy I don't doubt that he is able to help us but apparently he saw
00:45:05
fit not to answer my prayers the way that I hoped they would be answered this makes me think that
00:45:13
perhaps it was best as far as the children's souls are concerned I know that many will only look at the
00:45:21
additional years that they could have lived but if finally they were no longer Christians what would be
00:45:29
gained also I am sure many will say how could anyone do such a horrible thing my only answer is it isn't
00:45:40
easy and was only done after much thought one other thing it may seem cowardly to have
00:45:49
always shot from behind but I didn't want any of them to know even at the last second that that I had to do this
00:45:56
to them JN got hurt more because he seemed to struggle longer the rest were immediately out of
00:46:05
pain John didn't consciously feel anything either please remember me in your prayers I will need them whether or
00:46:15
not the government does its Duty as it sees fit I am only concerned with making peace with God and of this I am assured
00:46:26
because of Christ dying even for me PS mother is in the hallway in the Attic on the third floor she was too heavy to
00:46:36
move signed John so very obvious captain that John list murdered his wife three children
00:46:48
and his mother before writing that letter on November 9th 1971 yeah after after he wrote the
00:46:56
letter he turned on the music he locked the doors and he left the house the police obviously looking for Mr list who
00:47:05
is now a mass murderer they did some checking into his background because they had some
00:47:11
evidence regarding the letter that he left them or for the pastor more appropriately of what led him to
00:47:18
committing these crimes and he talks a lot about uh being a Christian and going to church and however ultimately he
00:47:25
commits a very unchristian-like act um to solve his troubles and not wanting to put his family through any troubles well
00:47:34
maybe discuss this with them first right he Cho he he chose to get a redo and didn't give them the option for that now
00:47:43
what it appears to me to be Captain is that this family was living well beyond their means and this has got to be um
00:47:51
primarily his fault he's the man of the house he's the one that's in charge of paying the bills and probably setting a
00:47:59
budget for the household his wife did suffer some type of illness and I don't have that specifically here in my notes
00:48:08
but I know that she suffered some type of illness that caused there um maybe even some dementia uh from her where she
00:48:17
would she would act out at times and this was a big reason why she was not attending the church like he had
00:48:24
referenced in the letter he does mention his oldest daughter in the letter saying that she had kind of
00:48:30
fallen out of the church that she wanted to get into acting and that caused him to question her Christianity yeah and he
00:48:37
also thought that maybe the more she got into acting the worse that would get for
00:48:43
her Christianity correct and that if had he not done this act uh when he did maybe she would not have been received
00:48:51
into [Music] heaven apparently Not only was he overspending and spending beyond the
00:48:58
means of their income mhm but the mother lived with them because this was such an
00:49:04
expensive home that he had to go to her for money uh whether it be for the down payment or to pay the mortgage probably
00:49:11
both yeah but the agreement was that she would live in an apartment that they basically furnished in the Attic of this
00:49:18
Mansion quote unquote Mansion she lived there and he apparently at some point lost his job
00:49:28
and rather than informing his family of this it was for it was for many many months every day he would wake up he
00:49:35
would shower he would get ready for work he would dress in a suit and tie and he
00:49:40
would leave the house and he would go to a local bus station and he would sit there and he would read all day long and
00:49:48
he would come home at the end of each day now I'm sure at times he was probably looking for work because he did
00:49:55
ultimately find work but once he had the family was so far behind on its bills and behind in in debt uh that he chose
00:50:04
to take the lives of his family and like I said give himself a redo but not give
00:50:09
anybody else the option of this and as sad as it is I mean it's it's horrible and it reminds us so much of the William
00:50:18
Bradford Bishop case that we discussed when we covered uh the FBI's most wanted list it's a guy that did the same thing
00:50:26
to his family and to his mother just a couple years after this took place uh with the list family he shot John L shot
00:50:34
all of his family members with a 9mm gun and like he said in the letter from behind in a very cowardly way leaving
00:50:42
them displayed in the ballroom and the mother up in the attic where this ties to the case to the case of Janet dealma
00:50:50
It's Tricky it's really tricky to say but I feel like we needed to cover this and to uh give somewhat of a detailed
00:50:59
description of this crime because it would be rare when you research the Janette case when you research her case
00:51:06
it is rare to find any mention of her case without them referencing the list murders or John list and his family well
00:51:15
one because in this area these are the two biggest probably murder cases ever in this area and they're happening less
00:51:23
than one year apart both on un solved at the time of the investigation and then you have books
00:51:29
that were found it seems to be that there were things found within the list home that would suggest that the oldest
00:51:37
daughter the one that was getting into acting and that John said was getting further from the church right that she
00:51:44
may have been involved in some witchcraft or Wiccan type activity now it has been referenced from
00:51:52
her Diaries uh entries that she made into her journal and books and materials that were found within the home this is
00:52:01
the tie this is what ties this to the Palma's case when you talk about Satanism and the possibility of
00:52:10
Witchcraft even the possibility that that Janette herself was involved in witchcraft books yes MH were these books
00:52:18
and that's it right yeah that well really that's it and that's what's sad is that this is reported that oh the
00:52:24
police now going to widen their investigation into the list murders because of janette's case however it's
00:52:33
it's a lot of what we've seen before and what we suspect with some of those newspaper articles regarding things that
00:52:39
were found at janette's crime scene was that there's some sensationalism going on here oh yeah and F first of
00:52:49
all Mr list you use my friend use a p [ __ ] but this has nothing to do with it his daughter probably was interested in
00:53:01
probably some spirituality stuff she probably was doing some research uh Curious you know just because you have
00:53:10
some books on the Shelf about a subject matter doesn't mean that you're into that right you know what I mean like if
00:53:17
somebody went to the Colonel's house right now right the alarm would go off okay right but but they get past the
00:53:24
alarm okay to get past the five dogs or whatever you got two dogs Mr dog lover leave the dogs alone please if you into
00:53:33
my house you break into my house I would like to have my dogs when I get there well one might bite your head off but
00:53:38
then they get to the Bookshelf right P all the porno mags they get to the book show there's no porno mags but go ahead
00:53:46
you know just because you have all these books about serial killers and mass murderers and all that doesn't make you
00:53:54
one that's my point and I think is it just the naive of the of the 70s where they just jump to these crazy
00:54:08
conclusions or or is it what you said during our break if it bleeds it leads yeah and I mean it's sad but that's the
00:54:16
truth you know you you talk about some of the biggest murder cases serial murder and otherwise throughout the
00:54:23
history of the world and what we've seen time and time again it sells newspapers
00:54:29
and magazines and people do TV shows about it and two guys sit in a garage and drink some beer and try to figure
00:54:35
things out so we're part of the problem I guess we're part of the problem yeah maybe I shouldn't have highlighted that
00:54:40
for everybody but in this situation 1972 uh neither of us were around and they this is sensationalism in my
00:54:48
opinion for these newspaper articles in reality what we do know is this is there
00:54:54
any chance that these cases are have any involvement in one another other than being from the same area in the same
00:55:00
time period no I couldn't find anything to suggest that that that the Liss family even knew the dma family yeah the
00:55:10
other connection that people were trying to make was that the oldest list daughter was into Witchcraft and they
00:55:17
did seances and they did witchcraft um activities arts and crafts with witchcraft uh up at Devil's skull
00:55:27
and so that therefore that maybe she was Loosely connected to Janette and it's it's just not true right there's there's
00:55:37
really no evidence that there was any kind of activity that happened at Devil's Devil's teeth is the is there
00:55:43
any connection no there's no connection with the list murders but when you research this uh you know I kept on
00:55:50
hearing about these murders and they might be connected so we thought it was important to go through it at least
00:55:56
especially if we're going to reference them later but it's one of those things captain that you have to in this case
00:56:02
you have to get over the fact that they're not connected to the list murders and you have to get over the
00:56:08
fact that there's it's leaning towards that it's more likely that Witchcraft and Satanism was not involved in Janette
00:56:16
the Palma's murder and once you get past those two things those those little mountains there and you venture on then
00:56:25
you have to question I think that's when you can start to see what maybe really truly happened here why did she
00:56:30
disappear why did she go missing and ultimately why was she killed and are there other cases that are connected to
00:56:36
this one yes and that leaves us here Captain we have so much more to get to there's been speculation that if this
00:56:43
was not witchcraft or Satanism could it possibly have ties to the mafia could this could she have been killed by a
00:56:50
stranger or a friend or a boyfriend was this ultimately some kind of cover up involving the
00:56:57
police and this is going to lead us down the road of looking into some other murders that may be connected to
00:57:05
janette's Case and we also have plenty of suspects to discuss as [Music] well all right thanks for joining us in
00:57:19
the garage and telling a friend we had no clue this was going to turn out to be four episodes it kind of a last minute
00:57:26
punt situation right Captain we got into this we're like holy moly there's a lot
00:57:30
here on the surface it doesn't appear to be such but there is a lot more to get to We Appreciate everybody joining us
00:57:36
this week in the garage if you want to continue the chat go to True Crime garage.com we have our blog there
00:57:42
there's room for your comments and your questions there on our website all right
00:57:48
until next week Colonel you be good and Captain you be kind and everybody please
00:57:53
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