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foreign [Music] foreign foreign garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host
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seen and it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend [Music]
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it's summertime and it's hot out and I love an ice cold crisp pilsner so today in the garage we have a Pilsner from the
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Fram family Brewers which won the 2018 midsize Brewery of the Year from the Great American Beer Festival now the
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flowers and lemon you'll taste a hint of honey and it finishes crisp and clean garage grade 4 out of five bottle caps
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called off the Record and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather round grab a chair grab a few
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beers let's talk some true crime [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] basically we have identified the bodies
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of the two uh females that were found out yesterday or yes yesterday uh the bodies are of uh have been positive
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identified as Abigail J Williams 13 of the Delphi area and Liberty Rose Lynn German 14 of the
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Delphi area the two girls were reported missing on Monday February 13th the bodies were
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discovered about 12 15 on the 14th in the woods just east of town here my volunteers had helped in the search of
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the children after they were reported missing to the Carroll County Sheriff's Department
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family has been notified this is considered a double homicide investigation no further information
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will be released at this time we have we have nobody in in custody at this time uh so as far as I'm concerned yes there
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is somebody out there that did this for Indus crime and uh we're going to track them down it is disturbing it is
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concerning his sheriff in my position and uh I I you know I want to I guess assure
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the community is is Trooper Reilly indicated we're getting into the bottom of this we feel confident and uh you
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know we're gonna we're gonna do everything we can within our resources to reach Justice in this
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situation [Music] foreign [Music] this is Delphi Indiana and our case starts on the afternoon of February 13
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2017. at about 1 40 in the afternoon 13 year old Abby Williams and 14 year old Libby German were dropped off by Libby's
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older sister Kelsey the drop-off location is at a Trailhead on County Road 300 North this is near the scenic
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monin High Bridge which is an abandoned railroad bridge that goes over Deer Creek in Carroll County Indiana
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okay I'm going to try to get as detailed on this portion of our timeline as I can
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so before the girls left to go to the bridge and the trails Libby asked her older sister Kelsey several times if she
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could drive them out there to which Kelsey said no several times before basically giving in and saying yes now
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Liberty had already secured permission from her grandmother Becky to go to the bridge
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the idea was Becky said yes you and Abby can go to the bridge if you can get a ride there and if you can get a ride
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back so the plan was for Kelsey to drop the two girls off and then around 3 30 p.m Libby's father Derek would pick both
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of them up this 330 marker is just a general time as Derek said he would call Libby when he was close to the pickup
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location so Kelsey drops off the girls and then calls her boyfriend to tell him that she
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is in route to go hang out with him Kelsey was going to go hang out with him and then go off to work
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while walking on the trail Libby posts a photo to Snapchat this is the now famous
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207 p.m Snapchat photo showing Abby crossing the monin High Bridge at 3 11 pm Derek calls Libby's phone
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Libby does not answer at 3 13 Derek makes another call Derek says both of these calls go to voicemail
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but after ringing so Libby's phone rings and then the calls go to voicemail eventually and I've seen it reported
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this might have been as early as 3 30 PM calls to Libby's phone start going directly to voicemail
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when the second call goes to voicemail Derek Parks the car so now he is parked in a location where he can pick up the
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girls this is the same general location where the two girls were originally dropped off there claims that once he
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Parks the car he gets out of his car immediately yeah he parked at the trailhead and he walks the trail within
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minutes of parking the vehicle and starting off on the trail on foot he comes to an intersecting path he says
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it's here where he sees as he has described an older man with a plaid or flannel shirt on he asked this man if he
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has seen two girls to which the man responds no but I saw a couple on the bridge
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these Trails out there are numbered the intersecting trails are the 501 Trail in
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the 505 Trail yeah Derek is going to walk down the 505 Trail to look for the girls now forgive me everyone as I've
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only seen this on maps but it appears to me that the 501 Trail is the more heavily traveled Trail it appears to be
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like the main trail there Derek takes the other Trail the 505 which dead ends at Deer Creek he does not find the girls
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and he does not see anyone else so he turns around and he heads back the way he came
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walking all the way back to his vehicle once he is near his vehicle he calls Becky Patty Becky is Libby's grandmother
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Derek is telling her hey I'm here Libby is not picking up the phone the girls are not here this this phone call takes
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place at 3 30 pm after the call Derek is going to walk the 501 path so he gets there he's
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calling nobody's answering he walks down a path the less lesser traveled path gets back to the car still nothing now
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he's gonna go walk the main path but at this point there has to be some level of
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concern oh yeah yeah so much so that he's already called Becky the grandmother right so let's give a
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general description of this path which I think is very important for those that have not seen this on a map all right
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from where he is parked the general description is this starting from where he parked he walks a short distance on a
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short Trail once there he is standing at the 501 Trail which is a Long Trail it's
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the more traveled Trail it's also called the monin High Bridge Trail because if you are standing right there at the
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intersecting Trails Trail 501 or the monin High Bridge Trail to the Northwest goes all the way to the freedom Bridge
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which is a beautiful pedestrian bridge that extends over Highway 25 better known as the Hoosier Heartland Highway
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or Triple H for wrestling fans to the Northwest is this beautiful Freedom Bridge right to the southeast is the
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moanin High Bridge so Derek goes up to the freedom bridge to see if the girls are up there he does not see them then
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again he turns around by the time he gets back to the intersecting Trails this is when members
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of Libby's family start to arrive to help in the search remember we said Kelsey was going to work well she got a
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call from Becky the grandmother who is alerting the family that Libby is missing so instead of going to work
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Kelsey returns to help as well just real quick just to recap because a lot of things are happening here the
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girls were dropped off at approximately 1 40 p.m I've seen this time as early as
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1 35 p.m and as late as 1 45 p.m yeah the Snapchat photo is at 207 PM so we know they are alive and well at 207.
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then not even an hour and a half later less than 90 minutes later Derek is there at 3 15 looking for them at 3 30
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Becky is notified and by 4 pm less than 2 hours after the Snapchat photo multiple
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members of Libby's family are there at the trails and looking for the girls between 3 30 and 4pm her family
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continues to try to call her some leaving voicemails and some texting as well at about 4 20 p.m Kelsey along with Cody
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Cody is Libby's uncle Kelsey and Cody set out down the trail and they go in the direction of the
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monin High Bridge and they actually cross the bridge when they get to the other side of the bridge
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they went to a couple of the homes in the area knocking on doors to inquire about Libby and Abby according to Kelsey
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and Cody they only speak to one person and of course that person had not seen the girls
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Mike Patty is Libby's grandfather just a quick background for those who are less
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familiar with the case Libby and her older sister Kelsey were raised by their grandparents Mike and Becky
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Derek is their father both their father and mother are involved in their lives but the mother lives all the way or
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lived at the time about four hours away in Kentucky Mike Patty Libby's grandfather arrives on the scene this is
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right around 5 p.m now there's a residence very near the trailhead parking area Mike goes to this home he
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knows these people there at the home while there he calls a friend of his who is a police officer
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then Mike goes back to the trails this is around 5 20 P.M at 5 30 p.m Libby's family calls and notifies the police a
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huge search gets underway but is called off once it gets too dark in a news release Carroll County Sheriff
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Toby Lazenby says there's no reason to suspect Foul Play or believe the girls are in immediate danger one based off of
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video footage and photos that I've seen of this area this would be difficult I think to search at night actually I'd
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actually think parts of it would actually be dangerous to search at night there's steep hills there and there's
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also I mean that bridge that monan high bridge is dangerous in itself right it's
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an abandoned railroad bridge anybody that walks across it and many people have it was a popular place to go before
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this incident but even after people have filmed themselves or taken pictures of themselves on this bridge and you see
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everybody looking down as they walk it it's a 70 foot drop 70 or 75 foot drop if you fall off that bridge and anybody
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that's ever walked on an abandoned railroad bridge knows that that sometimes they're missing steps and
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even all the steps that are there there's a distance between them where you could you could twist an ankle you
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could easily lose your footing right and on top of that too I've seen pictures of this area both in
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the summer fall winter and even in the month of February even with all the leaves off of the
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trees this is an area that's heavily wooded in in a lot of parts and tough to see things at any distance at all even
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when the the leaves are off of the trees right so they call off the search they're they're trying to be hopeful but
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I'd be a little concerned that if they're out there somewhere in the park that this is not the best area for them
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to be in especially after dark right and you have the highway that's right by there the the
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um Indiana Highway number 25 which we've discussed that on other cases too you don't want to disappear or go missing
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right around a highway but that also probably leads to some kind of discussion on several levels these are young
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teenage girls it's it's they've only been missing for a few hours uh probably let's say five six hours by the time
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they call off the search right you're probably having the discussion with her caretakers with with the parents and
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caretakers of these two young girls that they might have they might be off partying with somebody or they might be
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out you know doing something right they could have been dropped us off at the park we're gonna meet up with somebody
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that they just didn't tell their Guardians about so they're not going to start searching until the next morning
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which would be February 14 2017. yeah the search continues for the girls and there are several of these
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teams of Searchers out there they you can find on YouTube and any of the people that were local remember that
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they were calling that morning they were out on TV broadcasting and saying anybody that is available today please
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come out and help us search this area for these two girls but unfortunately just after around 12 o'clock noon
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one of the teams finds two bodies and this is about a half a mile away from the bridge from the Moon and high bridge
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so if you're looking at a map of the area and based off of later evidence the girls were abducted after 207 PM we
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know that from the the Snapchat photo and they would have been abducted after 207 pm at the southeast side of the
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bridge this is where they were likely ordered by the abductor to go down the hill
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they would have went down the hill and then across a long private driveway now this is not
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keep in mind this is not the suburbs so when we say driveway it's not what anybody's picturing this driveway looks
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like a long gravel and dirt road and at this approximate location you can't really see any houses there's
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not houses or like other roads visible at this location so as soon as they they go across this dirt road gravel road
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Private driveway whatever you want to call it they would have then went down yet
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another Hill and this one is steeper than the last this would put them right at the edge of Deer Creek
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the bodies were found on the opposite side of this Creek about 50 feet from the North Bank
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of Deer Creek police have not publicly stated how the girls were murdered and law enforcement
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secured a large area of this North Bank of the creek with crime scene tape as well as some of the areas from that
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Southeast side of the bridge working your way down to the creek side we do not know if the girls were ordered
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to cross the creek at the shallow point there or if they tried to make a run for
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it or if in fact they may have been killed and then carried across the creek to try
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to conceal the bodies further we we don't know that but we know that they were found across the creek is there any
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way to get across the creek some other way like by driving down a path or I say that they crossed
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at this shallow point because that would be what would make the most sense from from where they were found
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um right if you were to cross the creek there's there's that one shallow point right there and it's near that North
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Bank area where they were were found and I don't believe that police have actually disclosed whether or not their
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clothing was wet with the creek water well that's that's the difficult thing here in this case and that's why we're
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going to go through it in this manner because when we originally covered it was very early in the case and there was
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little to known facts about the case there was a lot of speculation there was even speculation at that time
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that they were found in the creek and we can piece together words of of law enforcement and detectives since then to
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know that that's not true they were found on dry ground about 50 feet from the creek side regarding the wet
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clothing we don't know if their clothing was found at all right for starters and
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factoring in the the distance of time the time that has elapsed from when it's believed that they were abducted and
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likely killed to when they were found I can't say I can't say if their clothes would have been still wet at that time
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what I can say what you're saying does so we're clear you're not saying that they were found
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nude I don't know we don't we don't know but that's why I'm saying is the way you
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made it sound was like we don't know if their clothes were even found right right you asked about wet clothes and
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I'm saying we just don't know because we don't we don't even have anybody to tell
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us if the clothes clothing was on them was found was was never there whatever but
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what I'm going to guess here and say is that and I'm basing this simply off of just what the police did in fact rope
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off with with the large area on that North Bank Creekside with crime scene tape I'm completely guessing here
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Captain but it it would seem more likely to me that they were they were probably
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killed on the side of the creek in which they were found again I don't know if that means that
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they were ordered to cross the creek or if they tried to make a run for it now on the 15th on February 15th autopsies
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were conducted on the bodies that afternoon Indiana State Police in the Carroll County Sheriff's Department held
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a press conference and they did confirm that they found Liberty and Abigail Libby and Abby the girls were murdered
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and again they did not state how they were killed Indiana State Police also released a photo of a man reportedly
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seen on the trail around the time the girls disappeared the image shows a white male with his hands in his pockets
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while walking on the bridge he's wearing jeans and a navy blue jacket and a hat well
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the the hat is still an argument but a lot of the news pressers that came out around this time describe him as wearing
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a hat it's very pixelated police this is the other tricky thing here right from the get-go so police do
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not call the man a suspect but say that they would like to talk with him we've seen this
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tactic in other cases sometimes that person is actually considered a suspect by law enforcement
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but by releasing it in this manner right not calling him a suspect and just saying we would like to talk with him
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there have been cases where that individual has come forward to try to explain away why they are in the area at
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that time because hi you looking for me yeah now also uh law enforcement does not say where
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the photo came from or how they obtained the photo now I remember thinking and and I don't think this was stated
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anywhere by and I know it wasn't stated by law enforcement but I'm sure others may have been thinking the same thing
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that I thought maybe this photo this it was a still image may have just been captured from some type of trail camera
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right but we're gonna soon learn that this actually was taken by Libby on her phone
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[Music] [Music] all right we're back cheers cheers to you captain on February 22nd 2017 there is another
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news conference this is the now famous news conference where police reveal that one of the victims Libby recorded video
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and audio of the suspect on her cell phone the audio recording is released to the public it's a man's voice saying
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down the hill this audio triggered more than a thousand tips we Captain you and I like
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so many others offered our speculation on not only the photo but the audio when we first covered this case back in May
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of 2017 and episodes 110 and 111. yeah those are free to listen to on the Stitcher app
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and a lot of the speculation that was involved between you and I and like I said others on their TV shows their
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podcast in newspaper articles everywhere was how much more does police have what
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more was recovered from Libby's phone and we also question things like you know the the voice sounds muffled is
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that because the the phone was concealed in her pocket and how did they obtain this information
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that was on her phone was her phone in fact found I believe now I you know at the time I
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thought maybe they pulled this stuff from the the cloud possibly I've changed my opinion on that I'm
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starting to think that they probably found her phone and it was just a I think the killer was in a rush to get
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out of there and may have not known that his image and his voice was captured on
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her phone yeah or was unaware that she had a phone I mean there's any any number of reasons
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out there but again I'm just simply guessing on that but I wanted to mention that I've changed my thoughts and
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feelings on that I think very likely that they found her phone now by March 1st the reward money for information in the
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case grew to two hundred thousand dollars eight days later Mike Patty Libby's grandfather who some on the internet
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were saying looked like the suspect or the bridge guy speaks out publicly for the first time
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at the Carroll County Courthouse personally I don't think Mike looks anything like what I think I'm seeing in
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the photo of the bridge guy and I say what I think that I'm seeing because as you've pointed out it's a picture
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pixelated grainy photo right it's taken some distance away the man on the bridge the
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bridge guy is some distance away from Libby when she took this video footage and what's released to the public
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there's hot debate and has been for almost two years well for over two years about what we are seeing and what this
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individual looks like but again personally I don't think nor have I ever thought that that Mike Patty looks
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anything like what we are seeing in that photo and then later the video footage right but you have two
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children dead we have no evidence of the grandfather being there around two o'clock let's say
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and you would think that with this information he might not have known let's just say hypothetically
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it was him he wouldn't have known that he was having his picture taken by her you would think that somebody in the
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family would come forward and say that looks like him yeah and there's nobody coming forward
00:28:19
and doing that and and I think they probably agree with me that it doesn't that they don't think it looks like M1 I
00:28:26
don't think it looks like him body type I don't think it looks like his face I don't think it looks like his
00:28:31
his facial features his hair his nothing like there's there's none of it that other than it being a white guy right I
00:28:39
don't see any other any other possible connection plus we know that Mike Patty has an alibi for that time period he he
00:28:49
very likely when you really tear through this timeline and some of the phone calls that were going on right
00:28:56
I find it very likely that Mike Patty would have been unaware that the girls were even there until they were until
00:29:04
people were worried right until they said hey they're missing and and I think that's what's so difficult in this case
00:29:10
is it seems like there's a lot of grabbing at straws I mean the first thing that I'd want to know
00:29:16
investigating this case is one we don't know if this bridge guy is connected or not we're not law enforcement so we
00:29:23
don't know the extent of information that that phone captured do we have minutes of audio footage do we have
00:29:31
minutes of video footage we don't know we're not law enforcement and my but my first thing when looking at this case is
00:29:41
who was supposed to drop her off where were they at what's their Alibi after that then it
00:29:48
becomes who was supposed to pick them up where's his location based off maybe cell phone pings you know does the does
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the father get there earlier than he says he did uh you know where where was he at what's his alibi what would his
00:30:06
motive be this is where I would start but you see quickly in this case people jumping to that looks like the grandpa
00:30:16
and and having really no evidence to connect connect that at all well and that's what this case will has been and
00:30:25
will continue to be and this is not a standalone incident we've seen this in other cases where they release a
00:30:32
composite sketch drawing of the person last seen with somebody or a potential suspect right and you get a flood of
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people calling in and the tip is not a great tip it's just a tip of I know somebody that looks like that or I was
00:30:48
driving on the on the uh this such and such Road on Main Street and I passed a car and the guy in the car looked
00:30:55
exactly like that dude like that picture like that drawing but what we will learn
00:31:01
is that we will eventually learn just to clear anything up here that the the image
00:31:07
captured on Libby's phone it is it is announced later that that is the killer of of the two girls so that is the
00:31:17
person that we are looking for the debate is what are we seeing what does he actually look like because it's a
00:31:24
grainy again it's a grainy picture and he he's walking with his face down and he's not walking with his face down
00:31:32
to try to conceal himself from her her camera phone I don't think he even knew that he was being videotaped
00:31:40
he's looking down because he's making sure that he doesn't lose his footing on that bridge right and fall 70 feet just
00:31:47
like everybody else if if this guy felt that he needed to conceal his face from from these two girls he would have
00:31:56
put on a mask or he would have put something on he would have done that in a different manner other than just
00:32:00
simply looking down as he's walking toward them and I want to go ahead and throw this out there too
00:32:07
you can tell that he's hurriedly he's he's in a hurry walking towards them so even more important that he's paying
00:32:14
attention to the placement of his feet as he makes his way across the bridge um what we're going to see here though this
00:32:25
whole thing that I'm pointing out here with Mike Patty with the grandfather he's making this this very personalized
00:32:33
statement this very heartfelt statement at the County Courthouse but I'm pointing this out because on the
00:32:41
internet people were saying that he looked like the suspect or some people thought he looked like the suspect this
00:32:47
is really just the start of the online suspects that we will see in this case and it quickly continued because on
00:32:55
March 17th the Indiana State Police the FBI and Carroll County sheriff's deputies serve a search warrant this is
00:33:04
at the home of Ron Logan Ron Logan owns the 30-acre property where Abby and Libby were found yeah
00:33:12
the popular TV show Inside Edition speaks to this man in his interview he says he was buying
00:33:20
tropical fish at the time of the murders Ron Logan is later arrested and sentenced to two years for operating a
00:33:28
vehicle this is after he was illegally operating a vehicle this is after being a habitual traffic offender
00:33:36
he is accused of driving to the county dump on the same day that the girls vanished to be 100 percent clear
00:33:45
he has not been charged in regards to the murders although he's certainly been same kind of scenario a lot of people
00:33:54
saw his interview and went that looks like the guy right and it's his property so and there's some debate on how
00:34:03
Cooperative he has been with police right I've seen people that have said Ron has been gone out of his way to do
00:34:13
everything he can to make sure that they know what he was up to that he was not involved and then I've heard other other
00:34:20
arguments that have said just that complete counter of that that he has not been very forthcoming
00:34:28
yeah a lot of people actually speculate that here's this lesser charge that we can charge him with and therefore maybe
00:34:36
he would then say something because I remember at the time once they arrested him it's like okay well here's this guy
00:34:43
that claims he was somewhere where he wasn't um you know then they've you know why is
00:34:49
he at the dump the day that these these girls are found yeah none of this is sounding good yeah that doesn't sound
00:34:55
good what what is he disposing of because yes you you find these bodies but again
00:35:02
we don't know if they were clothed or not clothed and then on top of that what did he use for these murders and did he
00:35:10
go to the dump and dump those so a lot of people speculated early that this was a tactic to get him behind bars get him
00:35:20
thinking about what happened get him away from everybody and therefore he would then come forward and maybe could
00:35:27
possibly confess to this the other thing though too is you know we talk about what does not sound good for for Ron
00:35:36
what does look good to me is I don't think that he looked like the bridge guy I think Ron looks considerably older
00:35:44
than what I think I'm seeing in that picture and he I don't think he matches the description not only does he look
00:35:50
older he looks a little bit he looks taller to me than than what we believe we are looking for and then in July of
00:35:58
2017 after everyone was waiting and waiting for the other shoe to drop for some kind of new information on the case
00:36:07
the Indiana State Police released a sketch of the murder suspect the person depicted in the composite sketch is
00:36:14
described as a white male between five foot six inches tall to five foot ten inches tall weighing 180 to 220 pounds
00:36:24
with reddish brown hair and eye color unknown right so this would go against Logan
00:36:31
yeah because of the hair color one also the the drawing looks a lot younger than
00:36:36
than Logan looks yeah and this is the this part of the story can get a little confusing for people not so familiar
00:36:43
with the case because there are eventually two sketches released this is the first one and you I guarantee that
00:36:50
people have seen this this is the one with the the flapjack hat on in the little kind of thin goatee hair sticking
00:36:58
out on the sides around the ears and the individual wearing a hoodie well in the
00:37:03
picture that they released to the public it's very pixelated so then one would have to start assuming that they had
00:37:10
some other angle uh some other picture that they found on Libby's phone and and that's how they
00:37:17
were getting this drawing well that's that's interesting that's always been another hotly debated item
00:37:25
so it's rumored and then later stated on the Dr Phil show that that that this sketch was the product of more than one
00:37:35
eyewitness who saw this man on the trails so going off of that statement it seems like this sketch is not compiled
00:37:43
based off what they think they were seeing on her phone or on that footage but based off of more than one
00:37:50
eyewitness who saw or claims to have seen this man on the trails the the day that the girls were killed now for some
00:37:58
speculation on this several people have put together and compiled some good info
00:38:05
on this case these people seem to believe that given the timing of the known facts and of the
00:38:13
persons on the trails that day and Libby's family they're searching for her just shortly after the abduction
00:38:21
for there to be more than one eyewitness of this man many believe he must have been spotted
00:38:28
both before and after the murders some have made a strong case that the man wearing the plaid or flannel shirt that
00:38:36
interacted with Derek on the trail intersection before 3 30 PM people have pointed out that he must be or very
00:38:46
likely could be one of the persons to have seen the suspect and given that timeline he likely saw the suspect after
00:38:54
the murders when the suspect was trying to leave the area this is interesting on several levels if
00:39:01
in fact that it if it's true one because it has never been publicly released where the public where the suspect was
00:39:09
spotted and by who and even though there are several theories out there we don't know what
00:39:15
route or exactly where the suspect left the area from right from law enforcement statements it's
00:39:22
believed at least one witness is a man and at least one witness to the suspect was a female and I say that because in
00:39:32
one of the pressers when giving answers one of the officers says she in in response to this composite sketch
00:39:42
so I would argue or just speculate that these eyewitness accounts are before pre-murder
00:39:53
because where they're found and and the area that they're found is is it's off the trail and to then backtrack and to
00:40:03
get back onto the trail to leave um my gut is telling me that that's not how it happened
00:40:12
that's possible but we don't know where this where this monster parked his vehicle right and it may if he had a
00:40:20
vehicle there at all it may not have been out of design it may have been a had to have been out of necessity to
00:40:26
make his way back and backtrack through the trails correct he could have also avoided the main trail
00:40:34
for a large portion of whatever part that he had to walk back to his vehicle you know tromping through the woods as
00:40:42
much as he could until he had to get back onto the trail and and if he if he had to get back on the trail I would say
00:40:48
that would be more likely we cannot say for certain that the man in the plaid or
00:40:54
flannel shirt was one of the people that claims to have seen the suspect that that was provided details to come up
00:41:03
with this sketch but I'm guessing based off of that and this individual has talked with with
00:41:09
police pretty extensively if regarding his timeline flannel shirt man plaid shirt man's timeline right
00:41:18
If he if he tells police I did not arrive until to the park or Trail area until this time that might be why the
00:41:27
speculation is that maybe he did in fact see this suspect after the murders because we now what's so interesting
00:41:35
about this timeline to me and what we did not know when we first covered this case is the the window
00:41:43
in which the the murders very likely occurred is so much shorter than what we originally thought right
00:41:51
we're talking about it's so very likely that this this all went down between about 215
00:41:58
and and maybe three o'clock right it seems to be generally believed or or theorized that the killer had already
00:42:07
made his way out of that general area by the time or shortly after Derek Libby's
00:42:13
father arrived and looking for her and I think you can base that that thought off of his interaction with the
00:42:23
flannel shirt man right all right sorry I went down I went down a long road there but thank you for for joining
00:42:31
me on it there well I also want to bring up the fact that based on it's speculated because they're not
00:42:39
telling us how they died how they were killed right but from some uh the rumors out there
00:42:51
that you would think that this guy would have some kind of blood on him there would be some kind of blood evidence and
00:42:57
so that's why like I said whether you're leaving from a different way that you came in because you could backtrack
00:43:04
somewhere or like you said and I agree with you staying off the path as long as you can
00:43:10
because you have this evidence on you that something bad happened and and so so I think that
00:43:17
again they have all this information they're only releasing bits and pieces so we can
00:43:24
only speculate on some of these things you know what I do want to point out real quick while we're on that topic
00:43:30
before before the thought leaves my tiny little brain here there is one YouTuber
00:43:37
who's done well there's several YouTubers that have done a lot of work on this case some of it good some of it
00:43:42
bad just that's my warning if you choose to go down that path don't say that Nick
00:43:47
don't say that the colonel and the captain sent you go in there swim at your own risk some of it is good info
00:43:53
and some of it is absolutely painful and terrible to watch yeah but that good stuff right but at the end of the day
00:44:00
there's two murdered kids and I think that's why the community has the community of true crimers have kind of
00:44:07
got behind this case and and try to do everything they can to put the word out there and sometimes people get fixated
00:44:15
in their ideas and fixated on you know it has to be this Logan guy or has to be the father or has to be the grandfather
00:44:23
they just get fixated but at the end of the day I think they don't mean harm by that I think they're really trying to
00:44:30
bring attention to the case well this is one thing that I found super interesting
00:44:34
that this this guy did and I can't remember his first name last name Greenough Greenough has done a lot of YouTube work
00:44:42
on this case and one thing that he did that I found incredibly interesting was he had a a man where about the same
00:44:52
color of jeans because that's one thing you can't dispute that's not up for debate we know we can look at that
00:44:58
picture and see what color those genes are that the guy was wearing and so he had somebody wear the same
00:45:04
color of jeans and remember what we do know is this the killer the bridge guy would have had to cross that Creek at
00:45:14
some point and it would either be because he ordered the girls across the creek and killed him there or he
00:45:20
transported the bodies there or he or he chased after them because they tried to
00:45:24
make a run for it right so those are two known facts and this is what I think is
00:45:30
brilliant anybody anytime anybody can take some known facts and then do a little experimentation with them yeah
00:45:37
fantastic work so so a big kudos to Greeno there but what he did was he had a man wear the same color of jeans and
00:45:46
then walk across that Creek at that shallow area and then very shortly afterwards he videotaped the guy's jeans
00:45:55
which sounds silly but what he's pointing out is and it was very clear on on the from his footage
00:46:03
if this man if the bridge guy were walking and later spotted by somebody it's very likely that nobody would say I
00:46:10
saw a man wearing wet jeans walking on the trail the way the color of those jeans when he filmed them after the guy
00:46:16
walked across the the water there right did not appear to look wet to me which I've I found fascinating because that
00:46:26
was one thing that I always wondered about once we learned more of the area of where in fact they were found I kept
00:46:33
going well why wouldn't out of these Witnesses and out of these people that were at the bridge and at the trails
00:46:38
those days that day and then all these people from Libby's family there shortly afterwards looking for her
00:46:45
it would have been so easy for police to get a tip that oh I saw a guy that looked exactly like this and what was so
00:46:51
odd about him was he was soaking wet but we don't have that tip right and again we don't know
00:46:58
you would think maybe you would see more of that if if the perpetrator chased after them and had to run through the
00:47:05
water but again if it's one of those things where it's the the crime happened on one
00:47:11
side and then the murderer transported their bodies over you could roll up your jeans or whatever
00:47:17
but basically what what your stating which I think is very intelligent is the idea of even if they walk through the
00:47:26
water you might not have seen um this might not have stuck out to you no because all it looks like is a darker
00:47:33
pair of blue jeans it doesn't look like like they're soaking wet it just looks like a darker color a darker shade of
00:47:41
blue and here's the other thing too regarding Mike Patty and the um the property owner
00:47:48
Logan Ron Logan look I understand people have their suspicions but I want to throw this out
00:47:55
there just so we can all try to get on the same page this is not some fumbling and bumbling
00:48:03
investigation this is the state police this is the FBI this is the sheriff's department this is as many agencies as
00:48:11
you can possibly think of working together putting all their resources into solving this case yeah keyword
00:48:19
FBI if the if the bridge guy was somebody so close and Social Circle to one of the victims
00:48:29
such as Mike Patty or somebody so close in proximity as to Ron Logan to where the bodies were found on his property
00:48:37
it's been over two years this thing would have been solved by now now nobody's out there standing on a hill
00:48:43
saying I'm going to die on this hill and argue this to death that these two were
00:48:48
not involved nobody's doing that so there's still public speculation and suspicion out there I'm saying
00:48:57
that I believe if somebody was so close either in proximity or relationship to the girls that committed this crime that
00:49:05
was was in fact Bridge Guy the killer this thing would have been solved by now it seems
00:49:12
so far-fetched that that that that would be the result when this thing does finally get solved because it will
00:49:19
so let's continue on with some some other suspects here Captain well I I just want to say I I agree with you
00:49:27
mostly but again we don't know what evidence they have and what evidence they don't have and so
00:49:35
um but what we do know is that they haven't come out publicly and said that Logan is not involved they haven't come
00:49:41
out publicly and stated that that they cleared everybody in the family or cleared people in close circles so that
00:49:51
has to remain on the table and I think especially the family members are normally understanding of that
00:49:58
you take any case like where a wife is murdered and they heavily investigate the husband most the time if if the
00:50:06
husband is innocent he's saying that's fine keep looking at me keep keep investigating me if you want you're
00:50:15
going to get to a dead end at some point so I think that you have to keep those on the table
00:50:21
because again we don't know exactly what they have and what they don't well this is where for some the levy
00:50:29
broke and this is on September 17 2017 when authorities in Colorado arrested a man named Daniel Nations for having
00:50:39
expired Indiana license plates police say he could be linked to the murders and call him a person of interest in the
00:50:48
Delphi case Daniel Nations is a sex offender from the state of Indiana and he was homeless at the time of the
00:50:56
murder so nailing down his whereabouts is difficult to say the least nation's wife says
00:51:05
he resembles the police sketch of the suspect but did not own the clothing scene in the photo in fact she told The
00:51:14
Gazette newspaper quote I can't tell if that is him or not but the one thing I'm
00:51:21
not going to buckle on he did not have that jacket So Daniel Nations was arrested during
00:51:28
the Tim Watkins murder investigation this murder took place in the state of Colorado to be clear
00:51:35
he was arrested during this investigation but he was not been charged in the murder of Tim Watkins
00:51:41
even though there are some who suspect Nations could possibly have killed Tim right because he was seen and reported
00:51:48
to be threatening people with a hatchet on the trails out there but Tim Watkins was killed with a gun
00:51:55
and authorities have been unable to link Nations to a gun and the murder of Tim Watkins well here's what happened in the
00:52:03
public eye though you hear here's this guy that was arrested he was on these Trails he was threatening people with a
00:52:10
hatchet and you go and he's from Indiana and I believe he had a probation hearing
00:52:16
or some kind of hearing that he was supposed to show up to it was he's supposed to check in regularly because
00:52:23
he's a sex offender right he's like supposed he's got a parole officer and all that jazz and he's got to show up
00:52:28
and say hey I'm here I'm still I'm still working at my job I'm keeping my nose clean I'm not doing anything weird but
00:52:34
it was like he didn't show up yeah but it was like the week after the murders it was like some weird
00:52:41
timing where it's like so not only um do the you know not only do we not know his whereabouts when he was in
00:52:49
Indiana but hear these murders take place and you take off and the next time next time we
00:52:56
see you you're in Colorado threatening people with that acting like a complete nut job and if you see his picture and
00:53:03
you see the first drawing of the suspect you go I can see that and then that was
00:53:10
it they they were saying that they were transporting him back to Indiana and then we just kind of sat around for a
00:53:18
while just wondering what was happening yeah we talked about who I think does not look like the sketch or the bridge
00:53:26
guy of what I think I'm seeing in the in the picture there yeah if you put Mike Patty Ron Logan and
00:53:34
Daniel nations in a lineup and said Nick which one of these looks like the bridge
00:53:38
guy I'm saying Daniel Nations please step forward here he looks to me much more like potential Bridge guys than the
00:53:47
other two yeah same hair color as described as well same weird face but he he claims his Alibi is that he was
00:53:57
tagging along with his wife for a doctor's visit that day two which later she says I believe he was with me but I
00:54:05
can't I can't prove 100 that he was in fact with me that that day now keep in mind she's being asked this
00:54:14
you know six months later right seven months later um we covered Tim Watkins case if
00:54:21
anybody's interested in checking that out earlier this year in March this is episodes 284 and 285 and we also covered
00:54:28
the Daniel Nations portion of that case in depth in those episodes on February 14 2018
00:54:38
one year after the double homicides of Libby and Abby authorities say Daniel Nations is not a suspect saying quote we
00:54:48
went out to Colorado and we spent a little bit of time with Daniel Nations and he is not a person We Care a whole
00:54:55
lot about at this time this comes from superintendent Douglas Carter with the Indiana State Police he said this at a
00:55:04
news conference this is where I think the the DNA question comes up right because you and I have been fairly vocal
00:55:16
about this on off the Record or on our other show questioning if in fact they have DNA
00:55:23
now what we can report is this we know that early in the investigation it was stated that they had DNA that
00:55:34
disappeared from the news at some point and disappeared from their statements at
00:55:37
some point yeah there's also rumor that very quickly I mean we're talking like the next day
00:55:46
two days after the girls were found very quickly in this investigation The First
00:55:51
48 first first 72 hours after finding the bodies the local rumor is that the state police
00:56:01
were in the area knocking on doors not only interviewing everybody that lived in the immediate area but also asking
00:56:10
them to submit DNA right which would lead you to believe that they have DNA but what if it was
00:56:17
just like you know as a cautionary measure and we're talking to you will you submit DNA you will thank you so
00:56:25
much autopsy comes back we have no DNA from the perpetrator and you're exactly right and that's
00:56:32
that's the whole problem with public perception on this case and others as well you can't immediately go while
00:56:41
they're asking people for DNA so they must have it you just you can't believe that because it is a tactic it's an
00:56:48
investigative tool just to see if you can make somebody squirm and if they squirm when you ask them a question or
00:56:55
ask them to cooperate in any shape or form then you want to know why the hell they're squirming right right so I I why
00:57:02
are you a squirming Vermin yeah I I agree with you 100 here Captain I personally think that they have DNA or
00:57:09
some form of DNA and I say that for a couple Reasons I'm not convinced I'm not 100 convinced I
00:57:18
could be talked the other way but this this whole statement of of Daniel Nations is not really somebody that we
00:57:29
really care a whole lot about that's that's like a vague statement of almost well did you clear the guy
00:57:36
because that sounds I mean the public it seemed like like watching the old Frankenstein movie where the where
00:57:44
there's a mob with torches that are ready to hang this guy yeah and and you come out with some
00:57:50
vague statement and I'm not criticizing police because I think they've done I think they've worked incredibly hard on
00:57:56
this case but the vague statement they've not been willing to show their hand they don't
00:58:03
have to they don't want to it's it's almost where this is something that we're not really worried about
00:58:09
right we have but we have two dead kids and it's been over two years and oh but I I do not want to invest I don't have
00:58:17
to show their hands they don't they don't right but I I would I understand who the victims are I'm not going to ask
00:58:24
them to compromise their investigation in any form or fashion no I don't want them to compromise it no so what I don't
00:58:31
understand what you're asking no what I'm saying is that I think your statement is a little silly
00:58:39
because it's like well they don't they don't have to show anything they don't have to do anything well
00:58:44
whatever they're they've done so far it obviously hasn't worked I mean we have evidence of that so I I
00:58:53
don't know what they're supposed to do I'm not I'm not a detective I couldn't tell you what they're supposed to do I I
00:59:00
lean toward towards the idea that they don't have DNA and the reason why is because normally when they have solid
00:59:07
DNA in cases especially child murder cases we've seen this with JonBenet Ramsey and other cases like that
00:59:16
where they test the DNA and they definitively tell you that this guy is cleared you see what I mean and that's where I
00:59:26
wander if they have it because if they if they do have it and they're testing people
00:59:33
and they're clearing people and they're not making that public you know public knowledge then that's a bad thing
00:59:39
because just you take this Logan guy for example these these girls are found on his property 30 Acres which is pretty
00:59:47
freaking big and think about the ringer that they put him through and if they had the DNA to test against
00:59:56
his who's they that put Ron Logan through a ringer is that law enforcement or the public
01:00:03
because law enforcement is not in charge of the public no I understand that but again if law enforcement has the DNA and
01:00:14
they matched it and it didn't match Logan's DNA then I think you have a responsibility when you know the public
01:00:21
is going after this guy like you said like the old Frankenstein movies you I think you have an obligation to
01:00:29
him you're supposed to Serve and Protect each individual and if you have a test that definitively shows that he wasn't
01:00:38
involved I think you have the obligation to then come out and go hey we know that
01:00:43
people are speculating that yeah right but that's that's my reasoning that to me that's the evidence uh that they
01:00:51
don't have the DNA because or that they don't have Ron Logan's DNA yeah but he was arrested they could have taken his
01:00:58
DNA then and same way with Nations so here's two individuals is that are highly suspect on top of that a third
01:01:05
individual is that a felony charge because I I think in in Most states that you have to be charged and convicted of
01:01:13
a felony to be forced to submit your DNA I could be wrong but that's my understanding to
01:01:20
be forced but if you're again again okay obviously we don't know for a fact if they have Logan's DNA or not
01:01:29
uh do they have Nations DNA do they have you know the grandfather's DNA I'm not for sure but I would just assume it if
01:01:38
I'm the grandfather and everybody's saying hey you kind of look like the bridge guy and they and law enforcements
01:01:44
tell me they have DNA and I know I'm not the Killer swap me up so that to me that's
01:01:53
you like like as like you said to me there's not definitive evidence but to me there's enough showing me they're not
01:02:02
it's just like with this nation guy out of nowhere it's kind of like well we're not that interested their exact
01:02:09
words are he is somebody that we not we do not care a whole lot about at this time
01:02:15
right but again that's not definitive right that's what I said a vague statement right so that makes me that
01:02:21
makes me feel like they don't have the DNA evidence because they're kind of like well we don't care about them at
01:02:27
this time but I think if they had DNA evidence they would say we're not interested in
01:02:35
him with him about this case period not like we're not interested with him at this time
01:02:42
again though I go I I think that that goes back to a couple of things 100 it comes back to whether they have
01:02:53
DNA or not but on two different levels I think if they don't have DNA they want and they're fine with the bridge guy
01:03:02
walking around believing that they have it or suspecting that they have it right
01:03:07
so they don't want to show their hand on that front if they don't have it now if
01:03:12
they do have it and there's something up with it right that's tricky too there could be
01:03:19
some kind of um what they call that when there's actually a mixture well there there's a
01:03:25
bazillion different things that could be going on with it so one it could be that
01:03:30
they have it but it their sample is of such that they need to compare it to a profile and they can't really do a whole
01:03:39
lot with it without having a having a match to compare it to right if that's the case that's difficult or they could
01:03:47
have it and it be contaminated right they could you know what I mean there's there's a million different things that
01:03:53
you can really go into here the reason why I go on the opposite side and what's interesting I think here is that really
01:04:01
you and I kind of have the same argument for different sides of the fence is that my where I lean to that they
01:04:10
probably have some form of DNA is that they are somewhat dismissing people and we see that with Nations
01:04:17
which is which is the same and just as good of an argument as you're saying well they've not cleared other people
01:04:24
who probably should be cleared in the eyes of the public right and so therefore it makes me think that they
01:04:29
don't have it the DNA and the the other reason why I say that too though is is with the press conferences with talking
01:04:36
with with the family members and everybody's respect for these law enforcement officers and the respect that I you
01:04:47
could you got to give it to them just when you hear the press conference how much they care how much they're working
01:04:52
towards this they seem like good officers and if they were able to clear a guide that that the society was trying
01:04:59
to throw shade on I think that would do it you know a hundred percent I think they
01:05:04
would come out and say a hundred percent this person's not involved in the murder
01:05:08
of these children I can't wait until they do solve this thing because I think that the the full
01:05:14
story that comes out about the investigation and the way that they took this the directions that it's
01:05:21
gone in whether they took it that direction or the investigation LED them in that direction
01:05:27
I think the it it will end up being a very interesting story from that aspect of this case
01:05:37
and I I think that like just like they have said we can't we can't tell you everything
01:05:45
that we know one day we would like to sit down and do that and where I say that I they don't have to show their
01:05:53
hand and I don't want them to and you question well it's not working it's not working in the sense that we know that
01:05:59
they've not arrested the killer they've not arrested the bridge guy he's not sitting there waiting to go to trial
01:06:05
but where it where in fact it that same tactic may be working is they may be Crossing people off their list
01:06:14
and the suspect pool is going to get shorter and shorter and shorter and smaller and smaller and smaller so it
01:06:21
may be working in some form and fashion that's just not obvious to us [Music] make sure you join us back here in the
01:06:40
garage tomorrow for part two until then be good be kind and don't litter [Music]
01:06:56
thank you [Applause] [Music]