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00:01:37
[Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:50
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me is a man that celebrated Thanksgiving down in the Turks and caos
00:01:57
with Brad Pit and his other celebrities friends the captain thank you thank you thank you it's good to be seen and it's
00:02:03
good to see [Music] you all right Captain this week we are drinking conspiracy theory by Southern
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been taking advantage of some of our sponsors special offers with our promo code saving a small fortune yeah promo
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code garage garage how about that next we have the Fredericksburg zombie walk now I must apologize what I'm assuming
00:02:50
this is a h Halloween time thing but from what I do know is fredicksburg Zombie Walk is an annual event and in
00:02:58
2015 they collected about 3,000 lb of food to donate to the needy so if you live in the Virginia area and you're
00:03:05
looking for a really good cause to get involved with and something fun to do as well yeah just type in the
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Fredericksburg zombie walk into the old Google machine and see how you can get involved next we have Kenny in Pensacola
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Florida we also have Lauren in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania and last but not least Joanne and Mason Ohio it's
00:03:26
Joanne's 50th birthday on December 3rd so a big garage happy birthday to Joanne from
00:03:32
Nick the captain your sister Kathy and all of your friends at the Rav 4 and like always we like your J we want to
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thank everybody who pitched in for this week's beer fund and if you want to buy us around for next week's show go to
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any day now enjoy and that's enough of the business that's right gather around grab a chair grab a beer and let's talk
00:04:16
some true [Music] crime this is true crime garage and this is the case of Mary pincho
00:04:33
[Music] [Applause] [Music] Meyer Washington October 13th Mrs Mary pincho Meer a Washington artist and
00:04:55
Society woman was shot and killed yesterday the police arrested Raymond Crump Jr a 25-year-old laborer and
00:05:03
charged him with murder Mrs Meyer 43 years old was shot twice in the left temple and in the
00:05:10
chest as she walked alone on the old Chesapeake and Ohio Canal Top PA in Georgetown she died at about 12:45
00:05:20
[Music] p.m. the toe path a pedestrian and bicycle route frequented by children and
00:05:31
fishermen parallels the pomac river Mrs Meyer had sometimes taken a walk there with Mrs John F Kennedy Mrs Meyers
00:05:39
friends said Mrs Kennedy who now lives in New York was described as a good friend of
00:05:46
Mrs Meyer Mrs Meyer's brother-in-law Benjamin C Bradley identified the body he is the Washington bureau chief of
00:05:55
Newsweek magazine Mrs Meyer was Mrs Bradley's sister Mr Bradley was a close friend of
00:06:03
President Kennedy the victim was divorced wife of cord Meyer Jr a writer and founder of
00:06:11
the United World Federalist now employed here by the Central Intelligence Agency the driver of an automobile tow
00:06:20
truck along Canal Road which runs parallel to the tow paath enabled the Metropolitan Police to make a quick
00:06:26
arrest of the suspect he was arraigned late yesterday before a United States commissioner and held
00:06:34
without bail on a charge of murder he denied any knowledge of the crime the tow truck operator Henry Wiggins 24 told
00:06:43
the police he had seen a woman apparently Mrs Meyer struggling with a man he heard screams and two shots and
00:06:50
then saw a man bending over the body he drove quickly a half mile to the nearest
00:06:55
[Music] telephone the suspect was apprehended an hour later wet beside the pomac near the
00:07:03
shooting scene he told the police he had fallen in the river while trying to retrieve his fishing
00:07:09
pole the police reported finding a fishing rod at his home Mrs Crump also identified a white
00:07:17
jacket found near the scene as her husband's the witness said the asent was wearing a white
00:07:23
jacket divers were searching the canal and River Bottom for the murder weapon the Myers were divorced 5 years ago
00:07:32
following the death of their son in an automobile accident acquaintances said this is true crime
00:07:42
garage and this is the case of Mary pincho Meer well here we are captain we're doing part two of the Mary pincho Meyer
00:07:56
murder case and why are we covering this because obviously L we cover True Crime
00:08:00
here in the garage oh really yeah and last week we started to cover this case because it was um the anniversary of the
00:08:09
assassination of JFK our 35th president yes and you know this time of year you're seeing everything on TV involving
00:08:16
the assassination and this case has always been tied to that particular case yeah because Mary Meyer and John F
00:08:24
Kennedy Had A Love Affair of some kind yeah they had an intimate relationship uh she had frequented the White House
00:08:32
often um and and and they were former neighbors as well correct so when one looks at the assassination of JFK one
00:08:41
should look at this case as well and that's what we're doing here now what was read in the trailer that is the
00:08:48
actual article the newspaper article that came out the day after Mary Meyer was shot uh in October of 1964 so that
00:08:57
kind of brings you up to speed as far as what took place that day and what the general Public's perception was of what
00:09:04
took place that day and where we're at now is we have Ray Crump Jr he's 25 years old he's been apprehended he was
00:09:10
caught at the scene MH so some would argue he's caught red-handed uh with his fly down um but anyway he's arrested and
00:09:19
he's arraigned awfully quickly later that same day and now we have a trial to contend with right right we have to
00:09:27
figure out is Ray Crump Jr guilty of the death of Mary pincho Meer now some things that take place very quickly
00:09:34
after he's arrested we have an attorney comes forward Ray Crump Jr is not of the
00:09:40
means to be able to afford a strong defense attorney right however a upand cominging and somewhat successful
00:09:47
defense attorney dovy rry she agrees to represent Ray Crump Jr for the cost of $1 and and one could assume right that
00:09:57
maybe that because it's such a high-profile case uh you know ex-wife of a CIA agent that and you know
00:10:05
connections to John F Kennedy that maybe this would boost her profile maybe well
00:10:10
that's exactly what she was doing she was going to stake her whole reputation in her future career on this case itself
00:10:19
and how she represents Ray Crump Jr MH um the other thing too is we have a bit of a uh civil rights or a racist or
00:10:29
whatever how I don't know what the right word is here but we have it a bit of of
00:10:34
of a typical conflict well let's just be clear and let's be blun right so this is
00:10:40
1964 and it's a white woman and the accused is a black male so um I believe this lawyer you know not only to boost
00:10:51
her profile but also who is going to defend this man adequately against this against technically a white system at
00:11:00
that time yeah she probably stepped forward hoping to make sure that Ray Crump Jr received a fair trial this is
00:11:06
not just a white woman this is a society woman and this is a u kind of a a low guy on the totem pool Ray Crump Junior a
00:11:15
young laborer who has no money and let's see what kind of trial he's going to get
00:11:21
well she quickly interviews Ray Crump Jr and after meeting with him after you know several times she decides that she
00:11:29
believes that he's innocent and she says in her biography that came out many years later that she would not represent
00:11:35
Ray Crump Jr unless she believed he was innocent M her her reasoning for this is
00:11:41
that when she met with him she saw what she considered to be a a small kind of Meek man that was very confused about a
00:11:51
situ this situation right right he didn't even really understand what had happened or why he was arrested for what
00:11:57
had happened yeah so his story I mean simply at the scene of the crime was that he's fishing and a pole goes in the
00:12:04
water and he goes after it and he falls into the water himself and then he's arrested M um no involvement no
00:12:12
connection to Mary Meyer herself right they didn't know one another and so she steps forward to represent him and she
00:12:19
again she says that he's terrified because this is in Washington DC if you commit first-degree murder it's a it's
00:12:27
punishable by Death yeah what's interesting here to me is you see this in the OJ trial as well is
00:12:35
like uh Johnny Cochran for example didn't want to be a part of the team until he actually spoke to OJ he had to
00:12:43
believe OJ or he didn't want to take the case and she's doing the same thing correct yeah she did the exact same
00:12:52
thing and it's going to be a a white judge a white prosecutor um and this is not looking to favor Ray Crump Jr now
00:13:02
one thing that happens in the get-go uh from the early part of this in February of
00:13:09
1965 um Ray Crump Jr is told that he is going to submit a hair sample to the prosecution okay and he refuses to do so
00:13:20
now this is when wait hold on so you just said that he was going to he he was no he was told he was going to okay okay
00:13:27
he was told he was going to he refuses to do so he he's brought into the police Captain's office in February of
00:13:35
1965 he refuses this hair sample okay uh what happens is I don't know the legality of this whole situation but it
00:13:43
sounds a little messed up to me because reportedly they held him down and took his hair from him uh thus they ended up
00:13:51
with a sample of his hair now this happened unbeknownst to Mrs rree who was representing him and she was quite
00:13:58
angered by this and she would try to get this removed from the actual trial now they are not able to do so his hair is
00:14:06
going to be a part of this trial and it's going to be looked at as evidence in this murder case now this case would
00:14:13
go to trial in the late summer of 1965 now one of the first witnesses that would be called would be coroner Dr rord
00:14:23
and what I how I want to do this Captain if you would play along with me is I'd like to go along through some of this
00:14:28
trial kind of talk about things as we go through it um but the thing to me here is you know how some trials are just
00:14:35
downright boring and it's just kind of you know dry and a couple of different people presenting the facts and it's
00:14:41
it's a real quick to uh decide whether this person's guilty or innocent and there's not much news out of it right
00:14:48
this trial to me I would have loved to have been sitting in the courtroom because this seemed like a trial that
00:14:53
had a little bit of drama to it and it kind of played out like an episode of Matlock in my opinion where you get to
00:14:58
see it see everything in action and you get to see two attorneys actually working against each other like they're
00:15:05
playing a game of chess right so the first witness that is called by the prosecution this is coroner Dr Rayford
00:15:12
now he the the I'll break down his testimony for you we don't have to go through the whole thing yeah but he's
00:15:18
basically saying that Mary pinch oh my was killed by two gunshots this was a 38 caliber gun okay uh two shots one to the
00:15:27
temple that left a slight halo around the entrance wound and one to the right shoulder blade this again left a slight
00:15:36
Halo did did you say the right Temple yeah okay so the right Temple right shoulder blade okay so the the bullet
00:15:45
that entered through her shoulder blade it peripher the lung and it severed the aorta so basically once that happened
00:15:54
she died almost instantly after the second bullet was fired okay now he's pressed a little bit because
00:16:01
they want to figure out what does this Halo that's near the entrance wound mean and the coroner would tell you that that
00:16:08
Halo is produced by powder Burns meaning that the shot was very close in distance
00:16:13
if not point blank on Mary's body right Mary had abrasions on her head knee and Ankle now this this would suggests that
00:16:23
Mary fought her attacker and fought pretty hard they were able to determine that she was drug about 25 ft this is
00:16:30
after she clung to a tree now one of the bits of evidence that the prosecution would say that they're going to show to
00:16:37
the jury is that they found blood stains on one of the trees well this would be the tree that she she clung to so she
00:16:44
was attacked she was shot once she clung to a tree she's drugged 25 ft shot again
00:16:51
dies instant instantly that's how the coroner sees this attack going down and just to remember that that this happened
00:16:58
during the day this happened like basically a lunch break yeah at 12 approximately 12:20 p.m. okay in the
00:17:05
very early afternoon so uh the other thing that the corner is able to decipher here is that the as salant was
00:17:13
able to overpower the victim the victim Mary she was 5' 6 in tall and she weighed about 127 lb the coroner would
00:17:22
also suggest that the whoever fired the gun could be ambidextrous that he could be a have the ability to
00:17:30
use both the right and left hand with the same amount of skill and that he was probably skilled with a
00:17:37
handgun yeah and you would assume that if the shots are coming from the the right side of Mary that the the suspect
00:17:45
would be left-handed or that he attacked her from behind and he was rightand yeah
00:17:50
yeah true well true I mean if you're if you're behind the victim and you're right-handed then you can shoot the
00:17:57
right Temple but is the wound coming from the front of Mary or from the back of Mary the the shot that went through
00:18:05
her shoulder blade yeah that would have been in the back okay so it would be more likely that the victim or the
00:18:11
suspect would be right-handed yep CU then they shoot yeah okay yeah so the the next witness called for the
00:18:18
prosecution this is supposed to be one of the star Witnesses for the prosecution there was going to be two of
00:18:23
them and the first one was Henry Wiggins now you'll remember from what we said in
00:18:28
the first episode this is the tow truck driver yeah 24 yeah and so he testifies that he was sent by Joe Cameron this is
00:18:36
his boss to pick up Bill Branch that's his partner and respond to a stalled vehicle at about 12:20 p.m. and the two
00:18:45
arrived arrived at the vehicle at that time when the two arrived they saw the vehicle this is a rambler okay uh and
00:18:53
Wiggins immediately heard screams right after they arrived so this is within seconds we we have a we're able to put
00:19:00
together an easy timeline on her attack because he's saying within seconds of arriving at 12:20 p.m. he hears
00:19:07
screaming and this alerts him and he decides to run across the street before he could get to the wall is when he
00:19:15
hears the first shot this is coming from the Canal area so he proceeds then a few
00:19:21
seconds later he says a few seconds later he hears another shot now his partner Bill Branch would later
00:19:28
testify that it was more like 10 seconds or 15 seconds between shots mhm Wiggins
00:19:35
sees the man he sees a man just seconds after he hears the second shot he says he's in Clear Sight of the man and he's
00:19:43
less than 130 feet away Wiggins Ducks down a little more than the football field exactly because
00:19:51
you know he's he's hearing these shots he's trying to react feet not yards I'm sorry yeah less than 130t yeah he Ducks
00:19:59
down behind the wall he's reacting and then he gets back up again and he looks and he sees a man put something in his
00:20:05
jacket pocket this item was in the man's right hand he could not say for certain
00:20:11
if this item was a gun or not he basically after being cross-examined says that he described the item item as
00:20:19
a dark hand object something he was holding with his hand the man turns around and walks away but this would go
00:20:27
with our idea that right-handed you're exactly right so he walks away down and over the hill uh the man was wearing a
00:20:35
cap this is one of those caps where you can button the brim to the to the to the
00:20:39
yeah I call it like a cab driver hat he was wearing dark pants dark shoes and a light or tan jacket uh and he would
00:20:47
state that the jacket was zipped up now so he says light or tan yeah okay and he
00:20:53
saw the man standing over the body for approximately a minute uh and says he did did not go get a good look at the
00:21:00
man's face Wiggins later that day would identify Ray Crump Jr as this man and he
00:21:07
would identify crump's clothing that was submitted to the court as the clothing that he had seen the man standing over
00:21:13
the body as wearing but that was a white jacket correct right I mean he says he says light or tan jacket right but
00:21:22
there's a big difference between white and tan right be a light tan jacket yeah I don't know
00:21:30
okay Bill Branch now remember he's Henry Wiggins the other tow tri truck driver that's his partner he would testify that
00:21:39
he he was over by the wall he didn't see the man but after Wiggins had left to retrieve the police officers that he had
00:21:49
stood by the wall and kind of watched over the scene mhm well there's a problem with this testimony okay because
00:21:57
at the crime scene when he's interviewed by the police he says when he heard the
00:22:02
shot he was afraid he he was working on the Nash Rambler that was stalled mhm and when he heard the shot he decided to
00:22:10
get in the vehicle and just kind of hide and hunker down inside the vehicle yeah
00:22:14
fight or flight and he he took off on a flight yeah and we all know you cannot tell the police in their report one
00:22:21
thing and then testify to something later in court you know he well I mean you can but you can but is it goes
00:22:29
against it makes you uncredible and think about this though here for a second so he's probably a bit of a bit
00:22:37
ashamed that he was just afraid and decided not to go over to the wall right and no no one knows how they're going to
00:22:45
act in that situation until they're in that actual situation well this is where doy Round Tree the defense attorney
00:22:53
would make her first strike against the prosecution in their story okay okay so she's immediately pointing out that
00:23:01
regardless of how long it took police to arrive and most people estimate that it
00:23:07
was between 4 to 6 minutes after Mary pincho Meer was shot so very quick police response time here right mhm
00:23:15
she's stating that let's be clear there was nobody monitoring the crime scene before the police arrive you know there
00:23:23
there wasn't this bill Branch watching over the crime scene anything could have been going on down there right with
00:23:29
without any eyewitnesses now what is the prosecution's general plan just to stick
00:23:37
with what he you know the change of story yes maybe um you know maybe you feel inferior as a man I guess cuz you
00:23:47
took off running and and HD in your car but also what are the cops telling you to say right I mean the cops are
00:23:57
going to be working with a prosecution to get a conviction and you got a guy at the scene you know and he's a black man
00:24:05
so you know case closed right well and what's the prosecution story The prosecution story is this okay that Mary
00:24:14
pincho Meer was attacked um her their first thought was that they would point out that she was um maybe being robbed
00:24:25
that somebody tried to rob her and that that had gone wrong but quickly into this they were able to point out that
00:24:31
she would not be one that you would suspect of being robbed because she didn't she didn't carry a wallet now I
00:24:36
know that an as salent might not know that um but she doesn't have a purse with her and she's not wearing any
00:24:41
jewelry so why are you robbing this woman now they would later say that it was probably a the result her death was
00:24:50
a result of a sexual assault attempt on rape on Mary who ended up putting up too
00:24:55
much of a fight that Ray Crump Jr shot her because of this fight because it got out of hand and that she might be able
00:25:02
to identify him right and that he fled the area now why is Ray Crump guilty of this crime well it's obvious to the
00:25:11
people of the jury right this is a prosecution speaking because the police responded so quickly and there are steps
00:25:18
and there are things that you need to you know there are exits and entrances natural exits and entrances to this Toe
00:25:25
Path Road into this area and the police were able to block off all four of those within four minutes of
00:25:33
the attack so one would think that the attacker was most likely trapped in that area and therefore would be apprehended
00:25:40
by the police looking for him a short while later which Ray Crump Jr in fact Ray was yeah so let's think about their
00:25:48
attack their their plan the prosecution's plan for a second okay and let's bring in the next witness the next
00:25:54
witness was police officer John Warner he apprehended Ray Crump Jr at 1:15 p.m. he was talking to Ray Crump for about 10
00:26:05
minutes before he decided to arrest him now this took place about onet of a mile
00:26:11
east of the murder scene now when he does testify when he came across Crump Crump was not running he did not look
00:26:18
like he was fleeing the area he was just walking uh and when he when he approached Crump he asked him for
00:26:26
identification he presented himself as a police officer Crump did not seem to be
00:26:31
startled other than the fact that he was soaking wet right and he quickly tells him I'm Ray Crump Jr and he shows him
00:26:39
identification he's asked why he's there well I I'm I'm here cuz I was fishing well why are you wet because just like
00:26:46
the captain said the fishing pole fell into the water he went after it well that story doesn't make a whole lot of
00:26:51
sense because Warner officer Warner offers to go with Crump to the area to help him retrieve his fishing gear right
00:27:00
Crump says well it's it's in the water we're not going to be able to retrieve it then he changes his story Crump says
00:27:08
well I was I was actually drinking and fishing and have fallen asleep and and when some point I stumbled into the
00:27:17
water MH now keep in mind we said that Ray Crump Jr is soing Right does he smell of alcohol I mean is there any
00:27:25
like stench to him Warner didn't seem to uh he didn't seem to elaborate on that at all I mean how drunk do you have to
00:27:33
be to fall into the river I don't know how drunk well I think you have to be pretty drunk but I think his story is
00:27:39
that he was drinking have you ever wait have you ever fell into a river uh not a
00:27:43
river but I have a pond you why you're drinking you fell actually similar story to Ray Crump Junior's I was drinking I
00:27:54
was drinking and fell asleep near the pond and then got attacked by some of my friends and and woke up startled and
00:28:00
fell into the pond those are some nice friends they're they're they're no longer
00:28:09
friends but sorry about that Crump JR says that he he had fallen asleep fell into the water okay now when he's found
00:28:20
by Officer Warner he's not wearing a cap and he's not wearing a jacket so shortly
00:28:27
after he's apprehended the police start looking for a jacket and they start looking for the the the Hat because
00:28:33
right the that the eyewitness saw they need to uh find the guy that was described to them as described to them M
00:28:42
and the next witness is well let's uh take a quick pause get grab a beer take a quick beer break this show is
00:28:49
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free and we're back from the beer break yeah Captain I want to talk about real quickly the description that is given of
00:30:23
the suspected as salent in Mary Pino's murder because this will come up time and time again throughout the trial okay
00:30:31
so the description that is given by the first what is quote unquote the star witness Henry Wiggins is that he had
00:30:39
seen a man that was approximately 5 foot to five I'm sorry 5' 8 to 5' 10 in tall
00:30:46
about 180 PBS African-American and in his 40s and we had already described the clothes that he saw the man wearing now
00:30:56
why is this important well Ray Crump Jr yes he vaguely fits this description right I mean he's an
00:31:03
African-American man but outside of that uh on his driver's license He's listed as 5 foot 3 in 5' 3 and a half Ines
00:31:12
sorry 130 lbs and he's 25 years old so he's quite a bit younger than the man in his 40s and he's quite a bit shorter and
00:31:22
lighter than the man that was described right way shorter exactly now he is wearing somewhat the same clothes you
00:31:31
know when officer Warner confronts Ray Crump junor and when he apprehends him he is wearing the dark trousers the dark
00:31:40
shoes that were described but he does not have this light color jacket on and he does not have a
00:31:46
hat now the police were very quickly able to find the jacket within minutes of them apprehending Ray Crump Jr they
00:31:55
go looking for this jacket and this jacket's found about 45 minutes after they apprehend him now they wouldn't
00:32:02
find the Hat until the following day throughout this time right but one could assume that if if Ry um was the murderer
00:32:13
that he disposed of these items correct and Ray Crump this is what he's he looks
00:32:18
like when he's apprehended he is soaking wet the officer notes that his fly is down uh his pants pocket was torn and
00:32:28
the he had a cut on his right hand and a small Cut Above his eye now this would lead the police to believe that this
00:32:36
these were injuries sustained during the uh attack on Mary pincho Meer right cuz
00:32:42
she fought back his his excuse for these injuries are that he fell into the water
00:32:48
and he he got hurt on the Rocks the next witness that is called by the prosecution this is Joseph rans rans
00:32:57
andol sorry for the name there Joseph I probably butchered that but who is he he
00:33:01
works for the National Park Service and why is he there he's there to discuss the layout of the toe path and why is
00:33:09
this important because again the prosecution said that they were able to to block off all those entrances and
00:33:15
exits and they believe that whoever committed this murder would have been trapped and would have been apprehended
00:33:20
very quickly as was Ray Crump Jr now so they're looking at this map they put like this huge huge map on the
00:33:27
wall right across from where all the jury members are sitting so they could see it while they're going through the
00:33:33
descriptions here M now the this Joseph that worked for the National Park Service he's asked you know how many
00:33:40
exits are on the Toe Path Road on the toath between keybridge and chainbridge and he states that there are four and
00:33:47
within four minutes that the police were called they had blocked off all four of
00:33:51
these thus trapping the as salent inside mhm now he points out these four exit as
00:33:57
one there steps to Water Street at keybridge two there's an underpass at Foundry Branch three there's an
00:34:05
underpass at Fletcher's boat house and four there are more steps at the chainbridge now through out the trial
00:34:14
they will interview several of the officers that were blocking off these exits and two of the officers that were
00:34:21
supposed to be blocking off the underpass at Fletcher's boat house they state that after about 5 minutes they
00:34:27
got tired of blocking off their spot right okay so they well everybody wants to catch the killer right I I think
00:34:34
that's why some people go into law enforcement they they want to be the hero you know and so after about 5
00:34:39
minutes they get a little tired of waiting and blocking their spot they decide that they are going to each take
00:34:45
a route that would lead them near the scene of the murder so they're taking separate routes now during the course of
00:34:53
one of these routes one of the officers he sees a head head Peak out of the woods now he doesn't go full charge
00:35:01
right into the woods looking for this man because he believes that this is probably the murder suspect why the only
00:35:08
thing he could identify from seeing the head of this person was that it was ahead of an African-American male now he
00:35:15
sees this person approximately 150 ft away from him okay he decides to wait there and he's waiting for backup before
00:35:24
he's going to go apprehend this man backup never comes so after some time passes they figure out that they're
00:35:32
they're NE never able to locate this man now a key thing in the trial that will come out here is that this Officer says
00:35:40
that he saw this man approximately at45 p.m. well this is where we're going to see the great attorney doy rry make her
00:35:48
second strike against the pro prosecutions theory so on cross-examination of this man of Joseph
00:35:55
from the National Park Service she's going through the map with him now she did the leg work she would go down to
00:36:01
the top path day after day after day and scour the scene to see what what was going on and what it looked like and
00:36:07
walk the ground herself I don't think the prosecution did this I think that they got they got caught without knowing
00:36:13
what was going on here right yeah where they were cocky and assumed it's 1965 we
00:36:20
got a Blackman you know we're going to we're going to charge him he's going to be found guilty easily I think they may
00:36:27
have thought it was going to be an easy win well they didn't realize that they're going to be dealing with doy rry
00:36:33
so she's going to make her second strike here and what is this through cross-examination of this man she points
00:36:38
out that there is a fifth exit that Joseph didn't know about um and this points out something here which is weird
00:36:47
because he's the expert on this yeah and I don't think he actually knew the area
00:36:51
I think he was just somebody that worked for the national uh Park service and they they just call him in they call him
00:36:56
in as an expert witness right quote unquote what the jury's able to figure out is this guy's not an expert witness
00:37:03
this is just a guy that that works for the parks department and he is observing a map that anybody could look at right
00:37:10
so there's a fifth exit and the problem with this is well not only is there an exit that they didn't know about but it
00:37:18
wasn't blocked by anybody this wasn't this wasn't being blocked off by officers so so so we have uh one officer
00:37:24
that saw a different black um mail well and then we have another exit Al together that's not blocked yeah
00:37:33
so there's a couple problems here for the prosecution because the prosecution would come out and say that that black
00:37:38
male that peaked his head out of the woods well that was Ray Crump Jr that that happened you know we saw the
00:37:45
officers saw him and he was apprehended later he must been hiding behind a very small tree but we got to look at
00:37:52
eyewitness testimony right so this Officer says that he saw the man approximately at 1:45 p.m. well Ray
00:38:00
Crump Jr it was already been right he was already arrested he was already arrested at 1:15 p.m. so it could not
00:38:06
have been Ray Crump Jr unless he got the time wrong and the other thing through testimony of the uh the gentleman from
00:38:13
the National Park Service that they are able to determine that doy rry points out to the jury is that not only are
00:38:20
there five exits and not four but there are also plenty of areas where somebody a person on foot could just leave with
00:38:26
without having used the steps or anything of that nature right so she's picked apart the prosecution Theory
00:38:33
pretty good right here in my opinion she's pointed out that a all the areas were not blocked off that whoever killed
00:38:40
Mary pincho Meer could have got away right two she's pointing out that there not only you know there the only person
00:38:48
seen near the body was this African American male that vaguely matches the description of Ray Crump Jr but she's
00:38:55
already EST established that he was clearly not the only African-American male that was down near the toe path
00:39:01
that day that day and at that time right so this is going to start presenting a whole bunch of problems for the
00:39:08
prosecution now let's keep in mind too that the police had searched for days and days looking for the murder weapon
00:39:18
now they did go into the water looking for this the murder weapon was never found they never located the gun that
00:39:25
that that shot these 38 bullets right so you could one assume that it got lost in the water mhm if if
00:39:32
Ry actually fell into the water or he disposed of the gun in the water making it a lot harder to find or you could
00:39:39
also assume that if if Ry is innocent that the the real killer left the park with the gun exactly and that's what she
00:39:48
would point out to the jury so now the prosecution they're going to bring in their second star
00:39:55
Witness this is Lieutenant Mitchell now he is this is where the prosecution really
00:40:03
liked their their attack okay their first eyewitness was a black man who was pointing out another black man and so
00:40:11
they thought that that would ring some truth you know that it's not just a bunch of white people accusing this
00:40:15
African-American man of committing the crime now this is where they thought they were going to hit the Home Run and
00:40:21
this is why they called Lieutenant Mitchell last because this is a former military man right he's he's a white guy
00:40:28
and he's of some standing in in the area so they believe that you know this is somebody that the jury as well as the
00:40:34
general P public would find truthful and trustworthy so he says that he would go
00:40:40
jogging often around that time almost daily yeah and on his jog he passed what he identified as Mary pincho Meer this
00:40:50
would be shortly before she was attacked he said that about 200 yard after he passed Mary pincho meire that he jogged
00:40:58
past an African-American man wearing a light tan jacket dark trousers dark plaid cap with a
00:41:05
brim and the man was not carrying any fishing equipment uh he also stated that he saw you know who else did you see
00:41:12
that day he says well I saw a young white couple and I saw another jogger who was wearing Bermuda Bermuda shorts
00:41:19
okay uh neither we need to point out something here when they're looking for the Killer
00:41:26
mhm okay Mitchell comes to the police the day after after they had already arrested Ray Crump Jr and says this is
00:41:34
the man that I saw walking Jo you know he's right near the victim now these other people that he
00:41:41
states that he passed on his jog that day these people never come forward they're never identified and they never
00:41:47
come forward as eyewitnesses right so he we got to point out something and we'll
00:41:52
come back to this later after the trial but remind me about this this Lieutenant
00:41:56
Mitchell okay now Lieutenant Mitchell would state that he gave the same description the day after the day after
00:42:04
Ray Crump Jr was arrested that was given by Wiggins now on on trial yeah but Wiggins you know his eyewitness account
00:42:14
is a little off of what Ry actually looks like MH and at trial um this Lieutenant Mitchell is going to be very
00:42:23
vague about his description you know when he's asked to give the height and the weight of the man he says that he
00:42:28
looked to be about my size well Lieutenant Mitchell was approximately 5 fo8 and about 175 to 180 pounds this
00:42:39
again making him much bigger than Ray Crump Jr however he's never willing he's pressed by doy rry but he never really
00:42:47
fully admits that he believed the man to be um exactly that size and weight he just keeps saying someone about my
00:42:58
size again I'm going to go back to the description of of Ray Crump Jr or what was given of the man seeing standing
00:43:05
over the body now again this is some you're you're right you're given the eyewitness account of the suspect this
00:43:13
is somebody that was described as an African-American male stocky about 180 lbs and between the heights of 5' 8 in
00:43:21
and 5' 10 in and in his 40s okay so when officer Warner arrested Ray Crump Jr he
00:43:29
was presented with identification this would have shown him that he didn't Ray Crump Jr didn't fully match the
00:43:35
description of the man that they were looking for this presents a problem because
00:43:40
there was no there was no gray area about this they had the testimony of 12 officers that were investigating the
00:43:49
crime that day that all heard the description that went out over the radio of whom they were to be looking for
00:43:54
right and 10 of them state that we were looking for an African-American man stocky 5' 8 in in his 40s two of the
00:44:03
officers give a different description they say we were looking for an African-American man 5' 10 in 180 lbs
00:44:10
and in his 40s but what you can figure out there is that this is not the description of Ray Crump Jr right his
00:44:16
driver's license states that he's 5' 32 in 130b now on the date that he was arrested the police booking they list
00:44:25
him at is 5' 52 in and 145 lb so he's slightly taller slightly heavier than what his driver's license States now
00:44:36
what it does not state in the in the booking report was Ray Crump Jr was known to have wore
00:44:43
lifts that would make him look taller right so I mean they could have measured him there and he had the lifts on so he
00:44:50
would be 55 it was you're exactly right he was it was unclear at the time of the
00:44:54
trial whether whether he was arrested wearing these lifts or not so he could have been taller the day he was arrested
00:45:00
the other thing was when given his weight 14 arrested the day of right so he's arrested the day of so we can
00:45:07
assume he had the lifters on during the attack no we we can assume that but what
00:45:12
I'm saying is it was brought up in trial and the police were unable to give a full report as to the shoes that he was
00:45:20
wearing that day if he was wearing the lifts or not they they couldn't determine that that was there was no
00:45:25
record of that they just took his height and marked it down and moved on but they
00:45:29
marked it down as 55 soed they're either lying or he's wearing the lifts and he was actually 55 exactly and the other
00:45:38
thing is with given his weight you know I'm assuming that they're not lying is he heavier because he's wearing wet
00:45:45
clothes I mean I know that wouldn't add that wouldn't add 15 pounds to you but it might add a little bit of you know I
00:45:53
think there's some things on your driver's license that you know they say as long as you're
00:45:59
within 50 pounds or whatever that you don't have to change your amount so it might just be one of those scenes he's
00:46:07
25 years old U maybe he's a little heavier and and he never changed that on his license so we can all agree though
00:46:14
that doy rry poked quite a bit of holes in the prosecution's theory of what took
00:46:19
place that day right she's feeling pretty good about her case and she decides that she only calls three
00:46:27
eyewitnesses and those eyewitnesses are all people that are just going to testify toward the character of Ray
00:46:32
Crump Jr and the other thing here though is that all three of them one of them being his wife all three of them had
00:46:40
known Ray Crump JR this is their testimony for 15 years or more and at no point had any of them ever known Ray
00:46:48
Crump Jr to own a gun or to even mention that he owns a gun so we have this guy that is considered not to be a gun owner
00:46:56
and we have the coroner saying that not only is this person ambidextrous but he's probably skilled with a handgun so
00:47:03
we have a guy that might not have even owned a gun let alone have any skill with
00:47:06
one yeah but one I don't think it it's necessary that he's capable of using his left hand or his right hand and also
00:47:16
skilled with a gun able to hold a gun up to a body and pull a trigger that's he's
00:47:23
not sharp shooting here mm right he's shooting uh Somebody by basically holding the gun to him boom pull the
00:47:30
trigger and the other thing that doy rry would point out to the jury was that the
00:47:35
coroner specifically said that he believed that the as salent was able to overpower the victim now she points out
00:47:43
that keep in mind you know yeah it it would have been man versus woman however Ray Crump Jr is shorter than the victim
00:47:51
and weighs only a pound or two more than the victim so easily overpowered Ray Crump Jr might have been
00:47:59
able to do that but is it like overly believable no there's some questions there well I mean but she did put up a
00:48:06
fight mhm now on the final day after she calls the character Witnesses she decides this she's going into court with
00:48:15
the assumption that she is going to call Ray Crump Jr to the stand and she believes hard and fast that this is what
00:48:22
she's going to do because his story will further back up uh what he was doing there that day now
00:48:28
what was her plan he had told her a story that he had not told anybody else that he was down there at the by the
00:48:35
water drinking with a married woman and he being a married man that this was something that they had done more than
00:48:42
one occasion that they would go down there and they would drink together and have a little little kiss face lot right
00:48:48
there's a lot of male [ __ ] in this story um however this woman never came forward she she did
00:48:56
um write a letter or she wrote some kind of uh testimony that was given to doy rry but she want to State her name no
00:49:04
because she was married right right and uh this was not something that could be presented in court now doy rry on her
00:49:12
way into court that day she you had to take an elevator to get up to the floor where they were holding Court well and
00:49:17
also if he's with this married woman if that's a true story then the police's accusations that this was a sexual
00:49:25
attack because it didn't make a lot of sense as far as a robbery goes you see what I'm saying so if he's down there uh
00:49:32
fornicating with a married woman then why would he have a sexual assault on this other lady exactly and on the final
00:49:40
day of trial doy round tree is going into the courthouse and she's going to have to take the elevator up to the
00:49:47
floor that's holding trial that day and the elevator operator throws her a little curveball she says you know I
00:49:54
just I just took the prosecution team up to the floor now the whole time they were in the elevator they were going on
00:50:01
and on about how happy they were that Ray Crump Jr was going to take the stand and they could not wait to pick him
00:50:07
apart they had had this all planned out they were going to spend the whole afternoon picking apart his testimony I
00:50:12
don't know if that's the elevator operator's job I don't know but uh have you ever been in in an elevator where
00:50:18
there's an actual operator yeah that's pretty interesting it's very old school um but anyway so she gets tidbit from
00:50:26
the elevator operator and she decides that you know what if there if these good old boys are so happy about picking
00:50:31
apart his testimony I'm not even going to bother calling him to the stand right why take the risk if you feel like
00:50:37
you're ahead you have more to lose than gain mhm um long story short Captain Ray
00:50:44
Crump Jr is acquitted of the murder of Mary pincho Meyer all right so what is the aftermath of this though it's an
00:50:52
unsolved murder it's an unsolved murder to this date the murder took place in the 6 in ' 64 the trial was in ' 65 we
00:51:00
here we are all these years later with no answers now there have been plenty of people that have stated that while this
00:51:08
should still be an open case that technically if you do some digging it is an open case however after the trial it
00:51:17
was never investigated anymore they spent no more time on investigating this murder after the trial why because the
00:51:25
police Poli Chief at the time believed that the prosecutor had botched the trial that did not do a good job on the
00:51:32
trial and furthermore believe that Ray Crump Jr killed Mary pincho meire and the only
00:51:38
reason why he got out of it was because of of racial stuff that the jury was primarily African-American there were
00:51:47
eight African African-American people on the jury of 12 and so you have a lot of
00:51:53
people that point out well this can't be a conspiracy because Ray Crump Jr did it
00:51:57
he just happened to get off because he had eight people um of the same race that helped him get off and furthermore
00:52:05
doy Roundtree she was a a minister at an all black um congregation and they believed that it was kind of like like
00:52:13
you had said to me earlier Johnny Cochran where she was able to talk in a way and present her story in a way and
00:52:19
that that some of the white police officers and law enforcement at the time believed that you know because of her
00:52:25
church background and because of the way that she said things and would convey things to the jury that those eight
00:52:30
African-American jurors would have believed anything that she said well right the the idea of the lawyer is to
00:52:37
tell a better story which lawyer tells the better story um but I mean he has some things going against him and some
00:52:46
things that went for him in this case it's very hard to know uh I mean I think that probably played a part I mean how
00:52:54
many um africanamerican males are getting a fair trial in 64 you know not many and this was taking
00:53:03
place in the north right you know I I don't you know I imagine that varies uh I would imagine it would be less likely
00:53:09
to get a fair trial in the South but this was taking place in the north there was you know unfortunately there's still
00:53:15
racism today everybody knows that we can pretend that it's not going on but there's racism today could you imagine
00:53:21
the racism in you imagine if somebody just walks through their life going you know I'm just going to prend that this
00:53:25
[ __ ] doesn't happen I'm just going to say that we're not racist no uh yeah what's interesting here though is you
00:53:33
know Mary Meyer is you know a woman ahead of her time and in a lot of uh facets of her life right oh yeah very
00:53:41
many and and so is is ry's lawyer she's she's a woman ahead of her time she's an
00:53:47
African-American woman right she's a she's also a preacher and and she's a lawyer I mean in 6 5 and then not only
00:53:56
that but she takes I mean I wonder where her career went after this she had a very successful career I don't know if
00:54:03
she went on to um be a part of any other famous cases but I believe she she had a
00:54:09
biography that came out sometime in the 90s so that's why so much of this stuff is U you know able to be reported easily
00:54:16
you know you have the trial transcripts you have her biography plus there were all these other biographies of people
00:54:23
near Mary pincho that came out later in life because she was a society woman she was surrounded
00:54:30
by successful people well and like we said the the unsent love letter from JFK sold for almost
00:54:38
$90,000 you know this year so I mean uh anything that's connected with uh John F
00:54:43
Kennedy has been very sought after in the public eye now there were several people involved in this trial one being
00:54:49
the prosecutor um stating that if you look at Ray Crump Jr's life after the trial that that points out
00:54:58
that he did this murder okay because uh he would go on to have a very lengthy police record uh which involved um
00:55:08
things like arson uh and assaults I think he had two arson on there I think he burnt down his own house at one point
00:55:15
um insurance fraud and they would point out that hey by the way next week I'm burning down the garage I think Ray
00:55:21
Trump Jr was arrested like 22 times after this uh trial took place and and he had actually moved out of state too
00:55:29
so some of those weren't him being targeted by anybody um sorry about that I just hit my head um but they would
00:55:37
point out that he was in fact a violent man now in doy round tre's biography she
00:55:43
states that she she has a good litness test for these type of things right she would interview a lot of people and have
00:55:50
to determine whether they're guilty or innocent so I I'm going to go with her on this and and she states that she
00:55:56
believes that that 9 months in jail that that Crump sat there waiting for his trial had changed him because she saw a
00:56:04
man that would had been attacked multiple times while he was in jail she believed he might even have been raped
00:56:10
at one point and she saw a very different man walk out of the trial doors that day than the man that walked
00:56:18
into him at the start and she thinks that that changed him and obviously he had a a drinking he had had a small
00:56:26
drinking problem before he went on trial before Mary Pino's murder and she saw that his alcoholism became very acute
00:56:34
afterwards and and this would lead to all these problems that he had with the law well yeah I mean but you also have
00:56:42
you know you're living in this world thinking that you're going to get a fair shake and and I'm sure
00:56:48
um I'm sure anybody of decent intelligence back in' 63 64 65 this time period uh African-American male knows
00:56:58
that some of the some of society's cards are stacked against you already mhm and
00:57:05
so but but with those cards being stacked against you other than that you're hoping you get a fair Shake right
00:57:12
if you do the right thing then then good things happen to you and and but I mean
00:57:18
one whatever if if his story is true um and he was actually with a married woman
00:57:24
then you weren't doing the right thing at the time and but then this happened and then this kind of sets this spiral
00:57:30
and it changes your mindset well this is how the world works and it doesn't matter if I did it or not all these
00:57:37
people think I'm guilty of it that'd be a really tough thing to defend yourself on well and you hinted on something
00:57:43
there that I've always said for many many years you know and in regards to Ray Crump Jr he was not just a man in
00:57:50
the wrong place at the wrong time no this was a man willingly putting himself in a bad situation he went down there
00:57:57
that day to do something he shouldn't be doing and I've always said for years if
00:58:00
you put yourself in a bad situation or you put yourself around bad people enough bad things are going to happen to
00:58:06
you I'm not saying he deserved what happened to him that day if he was in fact innocent however you know that's
00:58:12
the moral of the story here now you also hinted on something earlier that I I appreciate because when when I first
00:58:18
started looking at this case and the more I got to know about Mary pinch Oher the more I got to admire her I I think
00:58:24
she was an incredible woman that has a bigger story that's that's more than just possibly having an affair with the
00:58:30
late president I think that she was a extremely interesting woman I think that she fit into High Society very good but
00:58:37
she also had this inner hippie inside of her which was cool and the other thing though you pressed on was well you can
00:58:43
be a part of high society but understand that the idea is that you have to have an open mind and if you have an open
00:58:50
mind about issues you're more likely to solve the problems right and she fit into both of those categories the other
00:58:58
thing here too is like you said about doy Round Tree yeah this was an amazing woman I mean I could only imagine if if
00:59:05
if she she poked holes in this prosecutions Theory like he wouldn't believe I mean she just tore apart their
00:59:10
case in my opinion and I always looked at this yeah but I I look some of it is just I think a shitty prosecution I mean
00:59:17
for everything that you know for when they go well this eyewitness testimony is off
00:59:23
he's only five three well if he's lift wearing lifters then therefore their their eyewitness testimony is not that
00:59:30
far off right but we both agreed that the prosecution came into this trial and they thought they probably had an easy
00:59:37
case this is a a poor or a lower middle class black man accused of killing a well-to-do white woman and it happened
00:59:45
in broad daylight this is an easy case but doy rry could have walked in the same with the same thought right she
00:59:51
could have walked in and thought well this is an easy case for me to lose this is an africanamerican male charged with
00:59:57
killing a white woman and I'm just going to go in here and make sure that he gets
01:00:00
a fair Shake I'm not going to really work this thing real hard I think she worked this case really hard well but in
01:00:06
all fairness she took the case so I mean you're not going to take a case to lay down she took a case to win it no you're
01:00:13
and you're exactly right but I think when she saw what was uh you know the adversity in front of her I think that
01:00:20
she didn't back down and she never wavered and that she continued on and she got the I think it's the right
01:00:26
verdict now I can't say from personal opinion whether I think Ray Crump Jr is guilty or innocent because I think there
01:00:32
are things pointing to his guilt and things pointing to his innocence however had I been on the jury back in 1965 and
01:00:39
witnessed the trial as I understand it to be I would have give a a verdict of innocent there right right I I believe I
01:00:48
would have too um but I don't know I you know when I when I cuz I put this one on the list uh
01:00:57
I don't put a lot of cases on the on our our schedule um and I did so because I'm
01:01:03
so fascinated with the assassination of John F Kennedy and when this is always reported so I guess we can get into the
01:01:11
uh conspiracy side of things for just a little bit right well I was going to ask
01:01:14
you do we have enough time to discuss uh any of the conspiracies yeah yeah I mean
01:01:19
it's early in the day I got a little bit of time for you yeah so well I mean here's the thing is I I wanted there to
01:01:26
be a conspiracy I wanted there to be this bigger thing this bigger reason um regarding Mary Pino's murder not JFK's
01:01:36
right right right but look I will just come out and say it I I do not think uh Lee Harvey oswal was the lone gunman
01:01:45
well before you get into that let's talk about Mary okay no no but this is setting it
01:01:50
up you got to start there so what was happening before JFK you know yeah there's this affair and all this stuff
01:01:59
great who cares in my eyes I don't care you know he was a [ __ ] that doesn't I think he was a good
01:02:07
president but so Mary has ties with Timothy ly which is the big LSD guy and he was a professor at Harvard doing
01:02:16
studies on LSD you know the truth serum but it's really more about expanding and
01:02:22
opening the mind that truth serum was a joke well no but people actually used it
01:02:28
as truth term in experiments I think right right so she had uh basically she had a relationship with Timothy ly and
01:02:37
she was getting LSD from Timothy ly and she was administering these turn on events with
01:02:47
um you know Washington Elites mhm and she was trying to get uh the why lives of these Elites to get turned on to open
01:02:58
their minds therefore influencing their men and she even stated to Timothy ly multiple times if you can get these guys
01:03:06
wives and these guys Mistresses to get turned on and open up to new ideas that it could really
01:03:13
influence the the whole world um and if you ever want to look up something pretty interesting it's uh
01:03:21
Timothy ly wrote about this and his relationship with um Mary Meyer no not a sexual
01:03:27
relationship just a relationship so they would go back and forth when John F Kennedy was assassinated she
01:03:36
called Timothy ly she then stated to him they killed him because he knew too much
01:03:45
yeah I believe his exact quote is that she said they couldn't control him anymore he was changing too fast they've
01:03:52
covered everything up right and really to me a a tell sign of there's some big tells I think that
01:04:03
point to the idea that it was this uh a couet if you want to call it is this notion that Kennedy was going to pull
01:04:12
out of the war and how who does that affect monetarily and that the government didn't want to do that so
01:04:19
therefore we're going to assassinate him and we're going to take back power he wasn't going to listen to the people
01:04:25
because he got turned on you know as far as you know opened up his mind to the possibility hey War might not be the
01:04:33
answer okay so yeah maybe he knows too much maybe he's changing maybe he they can't control him anymore so they
01:04:40
assassinated him that's what she's kind of saying towards Timothy ly and I think
01:04:45
she was a little scared you know because she was one of the associates that were
01:04:49
kind of helping him open up his mind and so that happens that happens in ' 63 now when you hear about Mary Meyer all
01:05:00
the time you hear okay the assassination happened and then Mary knew so much that
01:05:05
they killed her but that's not the truth because what happened was it was a year
01:05:11
later yeah she was killed about 11 months after uh JFK was assassinated yeah and you have the warant commission
01:05:18
come out with their report just weeks before she's killed and this to me uh is if you want to go down the conspiracy
01:05:27
rabbit hole with this case this would be the tell sign because the Warren Commission come out with their reports
01:05:33
their findings um Lee Harvey oswal is The Lone Gunman and she is pretty vocal and pretty public that she does not
01:05:41
agree with their findings well one rumor that was going around as well was that she had actually purchased the paperback
01:05:48
version of the Warren commission's report and that she was making notations as she was reading it and highlighting
01:05:55
things and probably putting together a case that they were wrong that their findings were not exact um the cool
01:06:03
thing about Mary pincho Meer though again she was a society woman so the people that surround her were very
01:06:09
successful so there's so many document if you want to dive into this thing there's so many biographies that came
01:06:14
out years after she was killed of people close to her that talk about things going on in her life that led up to her
01:06:21
death now some of these can be considered here say um but you know you have like her
01:06:26
brother-in-law Mr Bradley he was a very successful guy he was in charge of the Washington Post I believe later in his
01:06:32
life right and um you know he has a biography and as well as plenty of other people in this case now let's talk about
01:06:40
real quick why you know you're talking about Mary pincho Meer was it a conspiracy well let's pretend we all
01:06:46
agree Ray Crump Jr we believe the jury we we believe doy rree and he is actually innocent of this crime mhm so
01:06:55
where are some problems with who actually killed Mary pincho Meer and and why and you had mentioned her not
01:07:03
agreeing with the waren report right okay and the argument there is that okay as far as the Sass assassination is
01:07:11
concerned how many of those Witnesses have mysterious deaths afterwards and so that's kind of where they're drawing is
01:07:18
anybody that's connected anybody that has um different viewpoints anybody has a voice anybody that can that could
01:07:27
change public opinion there's a lot of people that end up dead and then that's they're they're
01:07:34
lumping her in with that yeah I believe there were like 25 to 30 people on that list and she would have been like 15th
01:07:40
or 16th on the list now not all of them were murders some of them were suicides but uh right there was a lot of
01:07:46
mysterious it's enough to talk about that's for sure well the other weird thing too is that there was a I think a
01:07:53
Breakin to her house um they were looking for her diary and there was this whole thing that after her death um
01:08:02
trying to uh that people of higher power was trying to get her diary yeah she had
01:08:09
told some of her friends and I believe it was her uh uh sister that she believed that people were following her
01:08:17
and that she that they were breaking into her home and possibly wiretapping her phone um she even stay at one time
01:08:24
when she was coming home that she saw somebody leaving her her home right and um and and if a lady's making these
01:08:32
claims I don't think she's you know paranoid and just making this stuff up well let's talk about this diary real
01:08:38
quick because there are a whole bunch of stories about this diary I wanted to include it and give a very factual
01:08:45
opinion of this diary the problem was when I looked at it Through The Eyes of four different people reporting on this
01:08:53
diary di they all had different stories and so I couldn't come up with what was the truth but the general story is this
01:09:02
that within 24 hours of her murder that her friends and her loved ones conspired
01:09:08
that they wanted to go to her home and to her studio and they wanted to collect her personal things that being a diary
01:09:16
that they suspected she kept her letters and her personal papers now when they went to this is Ben Bradley he's and
01:09:26
part of this could be like I like I said she's she's this this is a tough cookie
01:09:32
I mean you know she was having an affair with the president you know at one point
01:09:40
and and she talked to you know like I said she talked to uh to Timothy ly about the different mistresses of people
01:09:47
of power in Washington maybe she was having other Affairs maybe it was just to get this diary to protect her
01:09:55
reputation because you know a lady that is single and maybe having uh affairs with married men uh puts a a damper puts
01:10:06
a kind of black cloud over all the positive stuff she was doing especially during that time period And so there
01:10:12
there's definitely motive in that scenario to we want to collect this stuff uh so so we can kind of protect
01:10:20
her name and her reputation well they're saving face right they're they're protecting her name protecting her
01:10:26
family because they believe she was writing down everything she did and and potentially protecting the Kennedy name
01:10:32
as well they didn't want these things to get out now her brother-in-law Ben Bradley his story he says that he was
01:10:39
part of this group that went to her home to get these items now when there he says when he gets there there's a
01:10:47
gentleman his name is James Angleton he's a CIA agent and he is he was either trying to pick the lock to her home or
01:10:56
he was already in the home when they got there that part of the story is a little
01:11:01
unclear while they were there they found a diary and according to Bradley Angleton said you know how we
01:11:10
handle these things in the CIA I can take this back to headquarters and I'll burn it I'll dispose of it properly and
01:11:17
nobody will ever know what was in this diary well after the the group of friends talk about they decide that
01:11:24
that's probably the best thing to do why is this normal though is it just normal
01:11:30
because she was married to a CIA agent I think so and I think it's where they live I mean living in the DC area being
01:11:37
involved in all of those groups right but if it was just some other white woman even of some power would the CIA
01:11:45
be there going through her diary um you know it's unclear while why Angleton was
01:11:52
there but he is a man of the CIA he could have said I'm investigating this her murder you know this is within 24
01:11:59
hours of the death you know so there there's not been somebody convicted of this crime they could have fallen for
01:12:05
that well they didn't do a good job of con you know investigating and convicting anybody no but you need to
01:12:09
keep in mind something here too they were friends with James Angleton so it wasn't like a stranger show showed up
01:12:16
and was trying to break into the I wanted to see where the how does this make logical no this was this was a man
01:12:21
that they knew and they knew that cord Meyer known him and so this was a man that they they trusted now where the
01:12:28
problem comes about is there's multip again multiple stories with with this diary the one being that seems to be the
01:12:35
most likely that several people back up is that they agreed to give the diary to
01:12:40
James Angleton and he said he was going to burn it at the CIA at at his office right right after he read it slowly now
01:12:48
um some other stories about the diary uh one of them being that one of the friendss a female friend of hers states
01:12:56
that she took the diary and took it home and disposed of it um another person states that they saw James Angleton in
01:13:05
possession of this same diary 10 to 15 years later after he said that he had destroyed it why was he holding on to it
01:13:13
uh and there's also some other reports that state that they found a diary that seemed to contain no information about
01:13:20
her personal life at all regarding Kennedy or drugs or anything of that nature and that they agreed that it was
01:13:27
of nothing of importance and they decided to dispose of it however there are people that will point out that
01:13:33
there some of these stories say that the diary was found in her home and Other Stories say that the diary was found in
01:13:40
her studio so some have suspected that maybe one of these Diaries was a fake that that somebody had either planted it
01:13:48
or it was just something that was misunderstood to be a diary and wasn't in fact that or maybe there's two I mean
01:13:55
maybe there's just a diet you know some people like to keep Journal it's good for M you know mental health you know
01:14:02
get out of the journal just kind of jot down your thoughts of your day how you're feeling you know just kind of
01:14:07
check in you know Journal one and then then another journal or another diary that is more in depth about certain
01:14:15
events and certain things more kind of a keeping track of history and you're exactly right because one of her friends
01:14:22
would state that what they were looking for was a journal a diary uh with personal information with with maybe
01:14:30
even potentially top secret information however what they had found was more of a Sketchbook was more of
01:14:37
something that you would expect to find in an artist studio or an artist home where it was just kind of Doodles and
01:14:42
and things of that like little ideas why else could this be a conspiracy Captain well let's go back to
01:14:50
that Lieutenant Mitchell now he's the the the man that came forward the day after Ray Crump Jr was arrested yeah
01:14:56
he's the jogger he's the jogger that claims he jogged by Ray and he testifies a trial now on the date that he goes
01:15:05
into the police department and says hey I was there yesterday and I saw her and I saw him uhhuh he states that his job
01:15:12
is he's a lieutenant with the Army okay when they go to trial he gives a different description of his occupation
01:15:21
he never states that he's with the army he states that he's a teacher at Georgetown I believe mathematics was
01:15:27
what he was teaching okay now there have been several authors that have written about this case now more than one of
01:15:35
them have gone back and done the detective work done done did I say dung who knows that's funny well Lieutenant
01:15:43
Mitchell's story might be a pile of dung because the authors have gone back and more than one have concluded when they
01:15:50
contacted the University of Georgetown that he's never been listed as a as a professor or teacher there ever ever
01:15:58
including 1965 when he was at trial stating that that was his occupation very interesting well then
01:16:06
who the hell is this Lieutenant Mitchell well the other and second of all again remember we pointed out that in the
01:16:12
trial he's the only one saying that he was there you know Ray Crump Jr never says he saw this Lieutenant Mitchell
01:16:18
jogging Mary pincho Meer is dead the white couple never comes for they're never identified they could be not even
01:16:25
exist and the man wearing theud shorts or they could be people having an affair that don't want to come forward yeah but
01:16:31
what about the man with a Bermuda shorts all by himself he's never identified or
01:16:35
or seen by anybody else and never comes forward saying that he was down there that day and had seen anything yeah so
01:16:41
we have the one case with the Jorts and now we have the Bermuda berms yeah we should write songs about
01:16:49
this uh the other thing too is you know the Babushka lady mhm you know what I'm talking about yeah I think I've seen the
01:16:55
picture of her the picture basically if you look up the JFK assassination there is this lady that they call the B
01:17:02
Babushka lady mhm my tongue is getting in the way of my talking today so this lady has never been
01:17:09
identified I believe and a lot of people believe that Mary Meyer was the Babushka
01:17:16
lady and the Babushka lady was in Dallas Texas on the day that uh JFK was killed
01:17:21
is that correct right now one could dis you know if they're having an affair and
01:17:27
we have a letter that was unsent JFK saying hey come visit me here come visit me there was she just in the audience of
01:17:35
the parade visiting her you know lover right love um was she the bushka lady it's interesting what's interesting to
01:17:46
me though is the Babushka lady has very distinct glasses and if you look up Mary
01:17:55
Meyer Babushka lady you can see pictures side by side I'll post that on Instagram
01:18:00
uh True Crime garage that's also on the website too True Crime garage.com we did get a bunch of emails
01:18:07
of people asking us they're like I know this case is interesting but I really want to hear uh you guys go through the
01:18:13
JFK assassination and I thought oh my goodness because I mean West Memphis 3 I flinched a few times when we decided to
01:18:21
do that case cuz it was huge o was a big case I mean we kind of rushed West Memphis 3 a little bit we could have
01:18:28
made that like part six you know six parts yeah because when we got into it we thought that three would would more
01:18:35
than cover it and we got into it and we realized holy moly and we kind of had to
01:18:39
rush through some stuff but can I give you a couple quick bullet points on my thoughts of JFK and his assassination do
01:18:45
we got time for that I guess oh God you're like opening up this can of War worms you know no I just have some
01:18:53
questions okay the here's the questions that I have when I when I think about the assassination and whether Oswald did
01:18:59
it or whether there were other people involved or Oswald was not even involved you know there there's some things that
01:19:05
are very questionable now we need to keep in mind you had mentioned going you know pulling out of the war at the time
01:19:12
but there was also some things going on within our government that that is of the same mind now keep in mind we were a
01:19:18
war economy back then that was what drove our economy so yes the government would most likely want us to stay at War
01:19:25
but what was going on as well is we had the cold war with the Russians going on at the same time now the weird thing
01:19:31
here is that the the military and the CIA was not working hand inand with President Kennedy at the time President
01:19:39
Kennedy was making deals and working on making treaties with the Russians to to to end the testing of nuclear weapons MH
01:19:48
and this is not something that the military wanted to do in fact when we had the um the Cuban Missile Crisis the
01:19:56
military and the CIA wanted to use this to their advantage to basically start World War III they wanted to use it as
01:20:03
an excuse to launch nuclear missiles towards Russia and they wanted it to they wanted to use this to invade Cuba
01:20:11
as well and now Kennedy I know that we've attacked his personal life quite a bit but we we should I just called him a
01:20:17
[ __ ] yeah but we should stand up for him in the fact of being a good president that he was seeming to make
01:20:23
moves towards peace and he Wasing efforts to mes towards peace he didn't agree withing the nuclear weapons at
01:20:30
Russia he did not agree with going in and trying to evade invade Cuba uh so he was doing things that they didn't agree
01:20:36
with this and it's weird when you see the military and the president not working together in my opinion yeah well
01:20:42
that's I mean that's the you know shows motivation of why they would want cou d'a and there's another person you
01:20:50
should look up and this is Tony sh and her father was Joe shyan now it's hard to figure out exactly what his job was I
01:20:58
believe that he had worked for the Secret Service but there's many people that bring him up and say that you know
01:21:04
if you follow him this Joe shyan enough that he seems to work in whatever branch
01:21:10
of the military or whatever Branch for our government that is uh convenient at the time you know sometimes He's listed
01:21:17
as having been in the Air Force sometimes He's listed as being FBI man or CIA or secret service now so he's
01:21:24
kind of a guy that seems to move around and be a little Shifty but one thing she
01:21:28
said about her father that that she has said time and time again that that always stands out in my mind was that
01:21:35
she she said that six months before Kennedy was assassinated that her father had told
01:21:41
her that lynon Johnson had come to him and asked for more security and this would be more security than the
01:21:50
president was receiving and he just kind of wanted to mention that to his daughter at the time because he found it
01:21:57
to be a very strange request he also thought it to be a very uh foreshadowing request yeah I mean hindsight's 2020 I
01:22:06
guess I don't know I don't want to get into it too much because I hope that we cover it sometime and actually like
01:22:13
actually dive into it maybe next November yeah yeah that's a we're setting up a giant task anyways is
01:22:23
it was she a part of was her murder a conspiracy um I don't know and I wouldn't put it past uh anybody to me
01:22:34
there is no like you know direct red flag of oh this is a conspiracy I think that she has ties to Timothy ly that are
01:22:41
interesting she has obviously ties to the CIA that are interesting with her ex husband she has ties to JFK being one
01:22:50
his neighbor being his friend being somebody that you know look I keep saying possibly had an affair cuz other
01:22:57
than people going yeah we think that happened there's not much proof and you know I I don't think I think it's
01:23:05
irresponsible just to say oh yeah yeah she was definitely having you're right it's not 100% proof positive but well
01:23:11
what they claim is this unsent letter is the proof well it's unsent it would be different if it was sent um but like I
01:23:19
said it's again it's a shitty Love Letter it's a boo call letter is what it is but but there does seem to be more
01:23:25
people inside that Circle saying that there was an affair between the two than than are saying there was not yeah but
01:23:32
that what I'm saying is you have all these things tying that really kind of seem like oh yes definitely there's some
01:23:41
conspiracy and normally I'm so quick to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon this one there's just nothing that hooks me
01:23:49
to go this is defini definitively something weird going on this is just a lot of kind of circles that she run in
01:23:58
um the circles that she ran with it's it's odd so but I think anybody that ran in those circles would think possibly
01:24:07
this could be a conspiracy well and I think if you want to I I mean this Lieutenant William
01:24:13
Mitchell is a big red flag for me he there seems to be a lot of problems with the things he said there's a lot of
01:24:20
problems with his career now there's one author that has said that he believes that Mitchell was the one that that in
01:24:27
fact murdered Mary pincho Meer and he's worked to build a case against him all these years later and this has been
01:24:33
taking place within the past few years will it ever become a a trial will he ever be brought up on those charges
01:24:41
probably not this man is in his 70s by now and he's led a very shadowy uh mysterious life um was was he
01:24:50
simply just not there that day is what I wonder was he just coming forward and and regurgitating what he heard in the
01:24:56
read in the newspaper and and he's backing up this story so that they have a Fall Guy right or what or was he paid
01:25:04
you know to come forward or was he paid to hire a hit on her and then they thought there was a possibility that
01:25:11
maybe he was seen so they wanted him come who who knows there's a bunch of wh ifs the sad thing is that you know Mary
01:25:18
Meyer was a you know a very smart intelligent creator woman she was a mother um you know she overcame a lot of
01:25:27
adversities in her life she seemed to be such a very positive person a positive influence on other people in her life
01:25:34
and she lost her life for whatever reason and that's the point and that's and that's the sad thing the other sad
01:25:41
thing to me the other thing the upsetting thing about this to me is that the day that that trial started in 1965
01:25:49
against Ray Crump Jr for the murder of Mary pincho Meer the investigation stopped and even when he was acquitted
01:25:56
and he walked out of that courtroom a free man they never they didn't investigate this crime anymore they just
01:26:02
let it be they just walked away from it and said you know what we got a bad verdict and this guy's absolutely guilty
01:26:09
and that's wrong that's wrong this should be it's I'm sure it's considered legally an open case but not in the
01:26:15
opinion of the investigators back then and I'm sure not nowadays well I mean you see this I mean even with like the
01:26:22
West Memphis 3 when you give the you know you give them a plea deal they get out of jail and then they go well no
01:26:28
these guys are still guilty we still believe they're guilty well if you still believe they're guilty then why are you
01:26:33
letting them out on the street if you still believe those guys murdered 8-year-old children why are you letting
01:26:39
them out on the street you're stating that so you don't have to do the work yeah and and and it's you can't have it
01:26:45
both ways well it's it's very sad because again not only do you have the victim but you have the victim's family
01:26:53
that has no answers all right I hope you guys enjoyed this episode I got a little
01:26:58
recommended reading for you that's what we're getting to well thank you uh this week's recommended reading the mamic
01:27:05
sorry the mamic the mammoth book of coverups this is by John E Lewis the 100 most disturbing conspiracies of all time
01:27:13
I recommend picking this up this is kind of like the Guinness book of conspiracies if you will uh this is
01:27:19
covering cases like the assassination of JFK things like The Da Vinci Code Area 51 the death of Princess Diana and the
01:27:28
Illuminati you like to talk about the Illuminati uh and of course many many more there's the 100 most disturbing
01:27:34
cases and conspiracies of all time the mammoth book of coverups by John E Lewis go to our website truecrime garage.com
01:27:42
click on the recommended page that's on there as well as the book that we recommended last week Mary's Mosaic and
01:27:49
like always you can follow us at truecrimegarage go to the website sign up on the mailing list make sure you
01:27:55
subscribe to the show make sure you tell a friend and also social media Twitter Facebook Instagram all that stuff at
01:28:04
True Crime garage and until next week be good be kind and don't let [Music] her [Music]
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