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[Music] % welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you doing thanks for
00:01:45
listening I'm your host Nick and I've always been a fan of the Browns and always been a fan of the captain I don't
00:01:51
know what that means but you do the math here's the captain I think it means it's
00:01:55
good to be seen and it's good to see you FYI Epstein didn't kill himself thanks for listening thanks for telling a
00:02:03
[Music] friend this week we are very happy to be drinking Texas red this is an American
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Texas Amber logger Texas red is a very balanced beer with notes of caramel plenty of malt character and just the
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right amount of hops garage grade three and a half bottle caps out of five this week our fridge is full thank you to all
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of our good garage friends we'd like to give a cheers to David in dunloring Virginia and a big shout out to Mary in
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Morgantown West Virginia next up we have our friend Dustin in Heartland Wisconsin
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Costa Rica and last but not least of course we have Wednesday up in beautiful Vancouver British Columbia everybody
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that we just mentioned went to our website True Crime garage.com and they donated to this week's beer
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fund and for that we thank all of you and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a
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chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime [Music] December 23rd 1991 in bluecollar coracana Texas this
00:03:56
is just about 45 M south of Dallas Diane Barbie was watching the prices right it was about 10:15 a.m. when her
00:04:07
11-year-old daughter Buffy ran in from outside and said Mom the neighbor's house is on fire Diane ran out onto West
00:04:16
11th Street and saw that the house just two houses down from hers was in Flames the man who lived there Todd
00:04:27
Willingham was standing shirtless and Barefoot on the porch his upper body covered in soot and his hair burned he
00:04:35
was screaming my babies are burning up he yelled at Diane to call 911 Diane's phone was shut off so she
00:04:44
had to run down the block to a neighbor's home to make the call at 10:24 a.m. Todd grabbed a stick smashed it
00:04:54
through the front window of the burning house only to have the Flames shoot out he tried another window with the same
00:05:02
result this was witnessed by Buffy Barbie Todd ran into the yard and kneeled in the grass according to
00:05:10
another neighbor he cried out my babies periodically while falling silent at other
00:05:16
times one photo from the scene that day shows Todd sitting on the bumper of a fire truck his head bowed down over his
00:05:26
knees his body language shows despondency when Diane returned to the scene Todd was standing by a chain link fence Diane
00:05:37
could feel the heat from the burning house and soon five Windows not previously smashed by Todd blew
00:05:46
outward then she said Todd ran to his Cadillac parked by the house and pushed it down the driveway away from the
00:05:56
Flames firemen arrived and Todd shouted at them that his children were inside in
00:06:02
their bedroom in the front of the house where the Flames were shooting from a fireman radioed for more backup
00:06:11
and said step on it the home we are talking about is a one-story wood structure a small
00:06:19
home firemen started to spray water on the front porch and into the windows of the burning house one firefighter
00:06:28
equipped with an air tank and mask was able to enter through the front door and proceeded down the hallway to the
00:06:36
kitchen a refrigerator blocked the back door of the house and the kitchen was empty of
00:06:44
people meanwhile out front Todd was becoming more and more hysterical a police chaplain was trying
00:06:52
to calm Todd who started telling him what had happened when a firefighter emerged from the house
00:07:00
with a 2-year-old in his arms he sank to his knees and the little girl's arm flopped
00:07:09
lifeless the firefighter gave the little girl Amber CPR meanwhile Todd rushed toward the
00:07:16
still burning house he had to be restrained by police chaplain father Monahan to prevent him from entering the
00:07:24
burning home restrained to the point that father Monahan and three other coracana police officers had to wrestle
00:07:32
with Todd and handcuff Him Father Monahan got a black eye in the process another firefighter barvin Smith
00:07:43
told investigators that when he arrived at the scene he too had to restrain Todd
00:07:48
from going into the home he told police that Todd was yelling that his babies were in the house and was acting real
00:07:57
hysterical he strain Todd from going onto the porch he said based on what I saw on how the fire was burning it would
00:08:06
have been crazy for anyone to try and go into the house Todd was taken to the hospital he
00:08:15
had burns on his shoulder face neck hands and his hair was singed he was kept overnight Amber meanwhile was pronounced
00:08:28
DOA at the hospital and one-year-old twins Carmen and Cameron were declared dead at the scene by a Justice of the
00:08:40
Peace the children's Mother Stacy was tracked down and informed of the tragic deaths of her children and the loss of
00:08:47
her home as she shopped for Christmas gifts at the Salvation Army this is true crime garage and this
00:08:56
is the case of Cameron Todd Willingham [Music] after he was released from an overnight
00:09:15
at the hospital Todd was brought in for questioning he spoke with fire investigators Douglas fog Manuel Vasquez
00:09:24
and police officer Jimmy Hensley Todd's story was this Stacy his wife left that morning to pay the water
00:09:32
and electric bills now the family was behind on several accounts this including their mortgage and When Stacy
00:09:40
went to the Salvation Army to buy presents for the kids after paying these bills the family had very little money
00:09:48
they didn't even own a stove they just made do with a hot plate and microwave and a deep
00:09:54
fryer around 9:00 a.m. Todd says that he heard the twins cry crying in their bedroom so he went in he got them out of
00:10:02
the crib gave them each a bottle put them on the floor 2-year-old Amber stayed asleep in her bed in the same
00:10:10
room Todd put a baby gate up as there was no door to the kids's room Todd went back to bed and fell
00:10:19
asleep later he says he was awakened by Amber's cries of daddy daddy she's screaming the house when he wakes up is
00:10:29
filled with smoke and he could barely see since he slept in the nude he said he felt around for his pants and put
00:10:36
them on while yelling at Amber telling her to get out of the house the house had no phone so he could
00:10:45
not call for help by this point he's crouching low and he's feeling his way around so he can make his way down the
00:10:52
hallway back to the kids room the hallway was filled with black smoke and the air rre of burning
00:11:00
materials he could hear popping noises that he thought were wires and electrical sockets
00:11:06
blowing when he got to the kids room he had to stand up remember he placed the baby gate in the doorway he stood up to
00:11:15
climb over the baby gate and at this point his hair caught on fire he put out the Flames with his hands and then he
00:11:22
got down on the ground and he started crawling around on the floor inside this room this room is now Eng s in Flames at
00:11:30
this time he's feeling around for the girls but unfortunately all he found was a doll he couldn't feel Amber in her bed
00:11:38
either at this point Todd later related that the fire was all around including the top of the walls and on the ceiling
00:11:46
but not on the floor this is why he was able to crawl and then walk despite being
00:11:53
Barefoot the heat became unbearable and burning debris started to fall on him so
00:12:00
he staggered out the front door this is right nearby where he is at this point this is when Diane Barbie arrived
00:12:08
to find him on the porch he told investigators that he tried to get back inside more than once including when he
00:12:16
broke the windows with a stick but the house was engulfed in flames and the heat was overwhelming investigators
00:12:23
asked Todd if he had any idea how the fire started he says he wasn't sure but that it seems that it started in the
00:12:32
kids' room since that's where the Flames seem to be coming from when he was staggering down the hallway he said that
00:12:39
he and Stacy had three space heaters inside the home and that one was in the kids room Todd said Amber got some
00:12:48
whooping in the past for playing with the space heater this might make sense too that the fire started with something
00:12:56
electrical since he says he heard heard snapping and popping noises one fire investigator though testified that he
00:13:04
found this space heater in the girls room in the off position Todd said he could not think of
00:13:11
anyone who would want to hurt his family he said he and Stacy had their problems
00:13:16
but neither of them could live without their children well most of these space heers have some kind of safety mechanism
00:13:24
if they tip over that they shut off but because of the time period you wonder if
00:13:30
they even had a feature like that he said of Amber his 2-year-old daughter Who Cried Out daddy daddy to tell you
00:13:39
the honest of God truth he says I I wish she hadn't woke me up the willingham's 50-year-old home was
00:13:48
severely damaged by this fire photographs show the chartred burned out remains of the walls and the floors in
00:13:56
the front of the house yeah I'll post pictures ures of the house and any of the reports that we talk about and all
00:14:03
the characters involved and all the people involved in this case I'll post pictures of that on Instagram at
00:14:12
truecrimegarage the melted artificial tree and singed teddy bear still soaked from the fire hoses is visible in
00:14:20
pictures of the scene as are the blacken kids beds uh bed and baby crib the back
00:14:27
part of the house where the master bedroom and kitchen are suffered mostly smoke and water damage the couple found
00:14:35
themselves not only in shock and grief over the loss of their toddlers but bereft of their home at Christmas time
00:14:43
with no possessions clothing or even money for funerals but rather than pity and compassion from the community for
00:14:52
grieving parents in the wake of a tragic accident instead the tide began to turn
00:14:58
turn the tide was turning against Todd Willingham now we said in the trailer Cameron Todd Willingham but anybody that
00:15:07
knows this case knows that this man goes by simply Todd so we will for the sake of making it easier on ourselves he's
00:15:15
just Todd moving forward as is typical with fires arson investigators sought to determine the
00:15:23
cause of the fire Todd of course gave permission for authorities to go through through the charred home he said quote I
00:15:32
know we might not ever know all the answers but I'd like to know why my babies were taken from me end quote the
00:15:41
assistant fire chief Douglas fog he was a Vietnam vet with four purple hearts he
00:15:47
had been a firefighter for 20 years and he was a certified arson inspector fog's
00:15:54
co-investigator for this case was State Deputy Fire Marshal Manuel Vasquez he's considered one of Texas's leading arson
00:16:03
investigators Vasquez had a background in Army intelligence and had investigated more than 1,200 fires in
00:16:11
his career fog and Vasquez went over the willingham's 975 squ foot house systematically and
00:16:20
painstakingly they said they went in with no preconceived notions of what happened Vasquez said quote the fire
00:16:29
tells a story I am just The Interpreter after examinating the perimeter of the home the inspectors observed that they
00:16:36
could open the back door and squeeze into the kitchen behind a refrigerator that was in front of this door the
00:16:45
appliance had been in that spot supposedly for some time the kitchen had smoke and heat damage but it was not
00:16:53
burned the fire started elsewhere The Men followed the hall hway from the kitchen past a laundry room and
00:17:02
then the master bedroom to the front of the house where a living room was on the
00:17:06
left and the kids's bedroom was on the right the hallway ended at the front door leading out to the front porch now
00:17:14
they noticed that the laundry room had what they considered to be weird posters on the wall a poster of what looked like
00:17:23
the Grim Reaper and then other dark themed pictures of skulls Amber was found under the covers in the
00:17:32
bed in the master bedroom this room too was determined not to be where the fire started but it was a different story in
00:17:42
the girls bedroom where the twins bodies were found on the floor fog and Vasquez
00:17:48
thought back to Todd telling them that he had crawled around in the girl's room and only found a doll but two of his
00:17:57
children had been right there as they continued to move through the home following the evidence they began to
00:18:05
formulate some opinions based on observations here are the things that figured most heavily into their report
00:18:14
the bases of the walls in the hallway and front rooms were charred indicating that the fire burned low down which
00:18:21
ordinarily fires burn upward irregular Char patterns on the floor were shaped like P pudles similar to what would form
00:18:31
when flammable liquids poured onto the floor burn in puddle likee formations the fire burned through the
00:18:38
flooring carpet and tile and burned so hot under the kids beds that the mattress coils were Ash white they noted
00:18:46
that the fire appeared to have burned low to the ground and again normally fires burn up high glass pieces from the
00:18:55
broken windows displayed a spider web pattern referred to as craze glass fire textbooks at the time attributed this
00:19:05
pattern formation to a fire burning extremely fast and hot as would occur with a liquid accelerant and then the
00:19:14
glass splinters as a result a flashover took place in the front bedroom this again is the kids's bedroom the
00:19:23
investigators perceived what they belied to be a burn trail from from the room shared by the girls into the hallway and
00:19:32
to the front door at the front door they found that the threshold was burned on the front porch brown stains
00:19:41
permeated the concrete floor as what might happen with the use of an accelerant V patterns on the walls are
00:19:49
traditionally considered indicative of extreme smoke and heat radiating upward from a burning object the fire
00:19:58
inspectors looked for V patterns to decide what was burning hottest and quickest to determine the point of
00:20:05
origin fog and Vasquez detected three of these V patterns in the home mhm one in
00:20:14
the kids bedroom one in the hallway and one at the front door these three distinctive origin
00:20:22
points showed that the fire according to this report was set so what it seems like they're
00:20:30
observing is that somebody put an accelerant down on the floor in three different spots correct
00:20:39
and that the fire was burning very hot from the bottom up be meaning the floor up and I think because Todd is visibly
00:20:49
no burns on his feet that they start thinking that this is evidence that he possibly started the fire himself
00:20:58
himself yeah so to put it in simplest form I think first of all his story his account of his movements through the
00:21:07
house before he exited the home don't seem to match up with what the postfire evidence is showing these in inspectors
00:21:17
right and then on top of that I mean really at at the most the most logical thing here is if you have more than one
00:21:26
point of origin for a fire somebody set that fire right you know an accidental fire is going to start in one
00:21:33
location and then burn throughout I'm sure somebody will send me a nice email that tells me that I'm wrong that there
00:21:40
was a situation at one point in the history of our world that a fire was an accident and it started in three
00:21:46
different points I would argue that and I'm sure investigators would argue that would be an extremely extremely
00:21:53
extremely rare occurrence if you can find three points of origin you've likely found an arson and as you pointed
00:22:00
out too if there was an accelerant used it makes sense that it would be poured on the floor causing the fire to burn
00:22:09
from the the floor up rather than wherever it actually started if it were an accident catching the walls up high
00:22:16
the ceiling and then burning in that manner right correct now I just want to be very clear so you're stating for the
00:22:24
record uh on this episode that you are not a fire expert I'm not a fire expert my only
00:22:32
knowledge of fire inspections comes from this case and a few other cases that we've already discussed okay are but are
00:22:39
you still the crispy Colonel I am okay the fire investigators sent samples of the burned out home to the lab uh the
00:22:50
lab determined that one of these samples did contain evidence of mineral spirits
00:22:56
something that is found found in charcoal lighter fluid yeah this sample that tested positive for accelerant came
00:23:05
from the thresold of the front door this is interesting too because we talked about that por Trail or the Fire trail
00:23:14
that the inspectors noted in their report the report pointed to 20 indicators of arson and concluded that
00:23:22
the fire with multiple visible points of origin was intentionally set again what
00:23:28
they're stating is that somebody would pour accelerant in these areas which all led to the front door which would lead
00:23:36
to that threshold where they found the lighter fluid correct directly from the report they are stating that someone
00:23:43
ported an accelerant in the girls room under their beds on the floor into the hallway and then out the front door and
00:23:52
then that person exited ahead of the Flames the burning hallway and door doorway prevented anyone else from
00:24:00
escaping out the front door or anyone coming in to help and keep in mind in the kitchen they surmised that the
00:24:10
refrigerator had been deliberately moved to block this back door right one of the
00:24:15
two exit points so the back exit point you can't get out because of the refrigerator the front exit point you
00:24:23
can't get out of because of the Flames if this was set up in this manner then it's I mean somebody intended for the
00:24:32
children to die in this fire right no survivors now that someone the investigator said was Cameron Todd
00:24:40
Willingham and this was a triple [Music] homicide this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the
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today [Music] all right cheers mates thanks for joining us cheers to you Captain cheers
00:27:06
to you crispy colel the arson triple homicide ruling wasn't the only thing that was working against Todd Willingham
00:27:15
despite initial witness reports that Todd had been hysterical and distraught crying out for his children yelling to
00:27:23
Diane and to have somebody call 911 right having to be restrained by firefighters and father Monahan more
00:27:31
than once some of the witnesses began tempering their statements and others came out with statements against Todd
00:27:41
Diane Barbie told police that she had never seen Todd try to enter the house she told PBS Frontline that Todd
00:27:51
was a very mean man and she commented to police that Todd seemed more concerned about moving his car than with his kids
00:28:00
being inside the burning home right Todd told police that he moved his car from the burning house so it wouldn't explode
00:28:09
causing further damage another neighbor said Todd did not appear to be excited or even
00:28:16
concerned about the fact that his kids were trapped and that he made no effort to go into the
00:28:23
Flames at times Todd was described as calm and defeated squatting in the yard or sitting on the firetruck bumper or
00:28:31
sitting on the curb and father Monahan too he dialed back his early statements that Todd seemed hysterical did he dial
00:28:40
back his black eye well he began to imply that as he thought about things more after this
00:28:48
event that he says Todd seemed to be completely in control and perhaps he was putting on an act people started to
00:28:55
whisper that Todd wasn't in injured or at least wasn't as injured as he should be let's get into who is Cameron Todd
00:29:05
Willingham let's take a look at this and but when we discuss his character one thing I want everybody to try to keep in
00:29:13
mind it might get a little difficult it's important to remember that just because Todd was not likable and in my
00:29:20
humble garage opinion a bad person that does not mean that he is guilty of murder right just because you're a
00:29:28
bonerface doesn't mean you're a murderer Cameron Todd Willingham was born in Ardmore Oklahoma on January 6th
00:29:37
1968 his mother had several children with different men she left when he was an infant and he ended up being raised
00:29:44
by his father Jean and his stepmother eugina Jean was an ex-marine who ran a very strict household Todd didn't always
00:29:54
abide by the rules but he was was very close with his stepmother Todd was a good-looking kid with black hair and a
00:30:02
big strong frame but he didn't do well in school and he got in trouble and he dropped out of school this in the 10th
00:30:10
grade after dropping out of school he turns to petty crime and generally just being a
00:30:16
hoodlum he was arrested a number of times this for things like driving drunk public intoxication carrying a concealed
00:30:24
weapon stealing bicycles shoplifting attempted auto theft and burglary the old bike jacking Todd
00:30:34
however was a charmer his probation officer paully Gooden said that he was one of her favorite kids and one
00:30:44
juvenile judge who sentenced him to probation said quote he just did stupid crap like steel bikes end quote it was
00:30:54
just a old [ __ ] turd end quote well Todd met Stacy kendle in coracana Texas when
00:31:02
he was just 20 and she was a senior in high school of coracana was a used toe oil town of
00:31:11
24,000 residents and really this area has fallen on hard times at the time of our story Stacy was from a troubled home
00:31:21
when she was just four years old her mother was strangled to death by her stepfather Jesus Stacy and Todd they hit
00:31:29
it off and got serious fast he moved to coracana from Oklahoma to be with her Stacy got pregnant and gave birth to
00:31:39
Amber and then again later giving birth to the twins right Todd Willingham was only 23 when he found himself saddled
00:31:48
with a girlfriend and three kids under the age of 3 years old and he had one killer mullet yeah that's right he he
00:31:58
had a mullet that won awards in different states well he and Stacy Stacy was a a little bit younger than him uh
00:32:07
got married a few months before the fire by all accounts including Todd's own admissions years
00:32:16
later he treated her very badly not only did Todd cheat on Stacy but he drank way
00:32:23
too much and he would leave for periods of time again though I mean this might prove that you're a bad person or a
00:32:31
douche canoe or whatever but that doesn't mean you're a murderer well he loved to play darts uh
00:32:38
he was known to flirt with a lot of women and again often drinking a lot well again to be fair I told you about
00:32:45
the Mallet so chances are they were flirting with him well I tell you what actually Captain I think that you see
00:32:51
this a lot when boys in their early 20s just aren't ready to be men yet they they've signed up willingly for grown
00:32:59
men responsibilities but due to immaturity they ultimately end up pooping in their big boy pants and not
00:33:06
being a real man at all real Stinky Pants yeah well Todd and Stacy's relationship was volatile too say the
00:33:13
least right when the fire occurred Todd was laid off from work and acting as a stay-at-home dad while Stacy worked at
00:33:21
her Brother's Bar to support the family on top of all of this Todd was physically abusive to Stacy the police
00:33:29
were called to their place more than once they there were even rumors he tried to induce a miscarriage when she
00:33:38
was pregnant with the twins by kicking her in the stomach one neighbor this guy just gets
00:33:44
better and better well that that's a rumor but we know the physical abuse was in fact a truth right but if he didn't
00:33:52
stop the physical abuse while she was pregnant then that seems like the room rumor sounds true even if he wasn't
00:34:00
kicking her in the stomach if he's abusing her while she's pregnant that can cause a miscarriage one neighbor
00:34:06
called the police saying that they could hear Todd hitting Stacy and yelling at Stacy saying get up [ __ ] and I'll hit
00:34:14
you again but Stacy said that Todd would never hurt their kids much less deliberately kill them she said that he
00:34:24
lived for his girls and he spoiled them rotten let's point out that the girl's autopsies showed no evidence of any
00:34:33
physical abuse right but this was inconsequential in the minds of many as corsak resident Vicky Prader put it to
00:34:44
Frontline about the community turning against Todd she said quote Todd Willingham had not treated his family in
00:34:52
a respected manner so he didn't get the benefit of the doubt that some people would
00:34:58
have prosecutors weren't sure what Todd's motive would be to murder his children there were life insurance
00:35:07
policies on the children but they were purchased by Stacy's grandfather who he was the beneficiary of a grand total of
00:35:19
$115,000 right but I think the one of the things that you have to look at when you're looking in at motive
00:35:26
here is we have a very poor family living in a poor area in a poor house right before Christmas depression is you
00:35:37
know is higher up during these times suicide rates are higher up during these times they're paying bills that they're
00:35:44
late on they're shopping at the Goodwill store to for Christmas they have three miles to feed he has no job you could
00:35:54
argue that by setting the fire and ending their lives that this is his way out you know he he's like you said
00:36:03
he signed up to put his big boy pants on and all he's been doing is [ __ ] in him so now it's going well let me take
00:36:09
these big boy pants off and this is how I can do it yeah basically I mean we have a situation here where Todd's not
00:36:17
going to benefit financially from the deaths of these children except of course that he would no longer have any
00:36:25
financial obligation for these three children as well the district attorney Pat Bachelor
00:36:32
attributed the alleged murders to quote the children interfering with his beer drinking and dart throwing end quote
00:36:40
after Todd was released from the hospital he had burns on his hands face and neck one shoulder and singed hair
00:36:48
and eyebrows he and a friend arrived at the burned out home in a truck blasting loud
00:36:55
music this to pick through the wreckage for salvageable items Todd was observed to lament the loss of his beloved dart
00:37:05
board and some neighbors said they could hear laughter and after a few days after
00:37:10
the fire people in the community held a dark competition fundraiser this to gather funds for the girls funerals Todd
00:37:18
and Stacy attended this and as Vicky Prader the fundraiser organizer put it Todd had too much fun for people's Liv
00:37:26
liking he asked the bar owner to put aside a new set of darts for him Prader didn't want to have him spend the
00:37:35
community's donations on these darts so she took money out of her pocket giving it to him for the dart set right now
00:37:45
personally I I understand why they're trying to raise the money and all that stuff but personally if it was me I I
00:37:51
couldn't even attend something like that it would be very difficult but but what
00:37:57
we have is a situation here where there might be rumors and speculation amongst the community there's been no charges
00:38:03
brought forth right or forward yet now the rumors as stated started to swirl that Todd was heard saying that money
00:38:12
will start to roll in because people pied him this of course did not sit well with any of the locals police
00:38:20
investigators on the case began to make note of circum circumstantial evidence against Todd
00:38:27
in police interviews Todd came across more as a patting himself on the back type for what he tried to do to save his
00:38:35
children the lead investigator Jimmy Hensley said to Frontline quote Todd didn't show any remorse through the
00:38:43
interview until I actually showed him the pictures of his children at that time he started crying you know I don't
00:38:50
think he was sad so much that he killed the kids as much as that it's coming to light that you you know he's a suspect
00:38:58
in it this is awful tragedy but we don't know how somebody is going to react first of all we have rumors and reason
00:39:06
to believe that this guy's character Todd's character is like you said before is of
00:39:12
that of a [ __ ] stain so he's just going back to that original character again that does not mean that he is um
00:39:23
responsible but once you kind of you know place his character with the evidence that this fire was started by
00:39:32
somebody this is what leads to his arrest right fire started by somebody who Todd admittedly says was in the home
00:39:41
before the fire started right so he is arrested and this was by a SWAT team on January 88th 1992 he was held on $1
00:39:50
million Bond while a grand jury was convened to consider an indictment against him an indictment for capital
00:39:59
murder came down on February 13th 1992 Todd couldn't afford a defense attorney so a team was appointed to him
00:40:08
this consisted of David Martin a former state trooper and Robert Dunn a local defense attorney who handled all types
00:40:16
of cases Todd was adamant that he had not set the fire and that he did not kill his children he was also adamant
00:40:24
about his innocence that when the prosecutor offered Todd a chance to plead guilty to avoid the death penalty
00:40:33
Todd refused to accept this deal his father and stepmother even visited him and begged him to take this deal but
00:40:42
Todd would not budge saying quote I ain't going to plead to something I didn't do especially killing my own kids
00:40:49
end quote well and at this point his own lawyers see the evidence and say look there is a lot of evidence against you
00:40:57
or at least pointing in your direction and I believe they advised him to to take the deal as well 100% and very
00:41:05
likely they probably shared the evidence with his parents asking them hey we can't talk sense into this guy right you
00:41:12
go talk to him at the very least as his representative because that's one thing we've talked about in other cases like
00:41:18
when the guy that had to that had the horrible responsibility of Defending John way gasey in court yeah he said you
00:41:29
know 30 years later he says basically what you have to do what your responsibility is when you go into a
00:41:37
situation like this and you believe your client to be guilty and John Wayne gasey
00:41:42
of such horrible crimes Todd Willingham of the deaths of his three children horrible crimes at the very least to
00:41:51
provide your client with some form of service your job is is to at least make it so that the state does not execute
00:42:00
your client well in this case reminds me a lot of like the Chris Watts case the family went missing they couldn't find
00:42:07
the family so all of a sudden you have the husband acting suspicious right but nobody really wants to to blame the
00:42:17
husband and in this case there's this awful fire these kids die in the fire you know right before christm
00:42:27
the the husband's acting a little strange and you don't want to blame him now we're to the point where he's
00:42:33
arrested and and everybody's looking at the evidence and looking at his character and going hey take this deal
00:42:40
you know and and at least you you won't be executed yeah the the trial State versus Willingham commenced on August
00:42:50
18th 1992 and it lasted just three days surprisingly the prosecuting attorney was assistant DA John Jackson The
00:43:02
Honorable Buck dougas presided in Jackson's opening statement he told the jury that Todd Willingham poured a
00:43:10
combustible liquid on the floor of the kid's room and then poured more of that same liquid in the hallway and out the
00:43:18
front door he then stood by and did nothing as the heat flames and smoke killed his three children
00:43:26
in his own opening statement Todd's attorney David Martin rebutted that statement saying quote the states theory
00:43:35
in the case is the most unexpected unprobable unreasonable scenario that we can imagine end quote he argued that the
00:43:43
state's case was entirely circumstantial now in a surprise move the state called its first
00:43:52
witness this was convicted felon his name Johnny web web age 22 it just sounds like a convicted Fain old Johnny
00:44:00
web well he was a career criminal and a crack addict who was in the Navaro County Jail at the same time as Todd
00:44:11
this is in January and February of '92 web was in on robbery and forgery charges he suffered from Psychiatric
00:44:21
disorders and was on various medications when asked on direct examination whether he had quote any
00:44:29
trouble with mental impairment or anything like that he responded not always Webb testified that he met Todd
00:44:37
while in jail and one day while the two were standing on either side of a glass partition that had a slot for you know
00:44:46
like the meal tray so that can come through they would stand there and where the slot is they could actually talk to
00:44:53
each other communicate through that spot because of the slot Todd broke down he says Todd broke
00:45:00
down on this one day crying and during this time that he's crying he confesses to Johnny that he in fact did kill his
00:45:08
kids the story Todd told Johnny web according to web's testimony was this Todd came home and found one of the
00:45:16
girls severely injured perhaps even dead because of something that Stacy did to the child Todd decided that the way way
00:45:26
to get out of this situation would be to set a house fire he took some lighter fluid and squirted it all around on the
00:45:35
walls and the floors in a pentagram pattern and then lit it but first he lit some newspaper
00:45:43
and burned one of the kids on their arms and forehead this to make it look like they had been playing with fire and that
00:45:53
that set the fire he says then he ran out of the house and refused to re-enter the home now according to web this whole
00:46:03
spontaneous confession thing went down in an area that was in full view of guards and other prisoners and right
00:46:11
underneath microphones connected to the intercom system that was monitored by prison staff and web had only met Todd
00:46:21
less than a month before Todd denied involvement in the fire to anyone and everyone including web yet all of a
00:46:29
sudden he decided to unburden himself to this stranger yeah I never trust these jailhouse
00:46:38
snitches well it in this situation anyway it defies belief to me I agree but often in these cases when somebody
00:46:47
from prison snitches on somebody else and they use them in a trial the prosecution was able to like gift them
00:46:55
something so so basically pay them for their confession yeah that I mean it's a it's
00:47:01
a favor for a favor essentially the problem on top of that in this specific incident is that this confession should
00:47:11
have been heard by somebody else or recorded on top of him just telling this other uh jailmate
00:47:20
right before Webb left the stand Jackson the prosecutor asked him Johnny have I ever promised you anything in return for
00:47:27
your testimony in this case to which Johnny answers no sir you have not now let's make sure that we remember Johnny
00:47:36
web's testimony the next States witness was Diane Barbie the neighbor who called 911
00:47:44
right she testified that she ran down the street saw the burning house and Todd on the porch and that he was
00:47:51
screaming then she stated that he started screaming ing whenever we came outside she said the house was not in
00:48:00
Flames but that smoke was coming from down low she admitted that when she ran to find a neighbor to call 911 she was
00:48:10
gone maybe 6 minutes she said Todd was hysterical hollering and all but he managed to tell her that Amber had woke
00:48:19
him up and then jumped off the bed and he couldn't find her in the black smoke she said that while Todd ran back and
00:48:28
forth between the house and the yard a few times she couldn't get him to go back in to save the girls another
00:48:36
neighbor this is Mr long arrived and just then the house blew up the heat was so intense Diane could feel it from
00:48:45
where she stood in the Daniel's yard this is the yard between hers and the willingham's right she could hear
00:48:53
electricity popping she said she said she could not tell whether Todd was injured but he had black soot all over
00:49:01
his arms and back and his hair and eyelashes were burned Todd pushed his car back from the house about 8 ft down
00:49:10
the driveway and then sat down across the street on the curb the fire trucks arrived at
00:49:18
10:26 the next morning Diane testified a small group gathered at the burned house
00:49:24
including Todd a boom box was blasting music from someone's truck but they turned it off when they saw her that
00:49:32
night Todd and Stacy came by and Stacy was crying and they were discussing that a neighbor was taking up a collection
00:49:40
and Todd and Stacy had bought some clothes for Amber this presumably to bury her in Todd said to Stacy in front
00:49:49
of Diane that he tried to go back into the burning house Diane's daughters both test ified that they did not see Todd
00:49:57
try to go into the burning home that he did not appear injured and that he appeared more concerned about his car
00:50:06
John Bailey the neighbor across the street testified that the day after the fire he saw Todd and Stacy going through
00:50:14
the debris he said quote it was not the attitude of people that just lost their children should have had but that's a
00:50:21
case in so many cases as people go well they're just act in different than I would and so therefore that means
00:50:30
they're guilty in those people's eyes it's it's kind of strange that people do that constantly he goes on to say that
00:50:36
it was more of a laughing cutup type of attitude Jerry Long another neighbor stated that during the fire Todd didn't
00:50:45
seem quote real excited he would holler about his kids and then stop and look himself over as if to see whether he was
00:50:54
injured long denied that Todd had cried at all but on cross-examination by David Martin
00:51:02
he admitted that in an earlier statement to police he had attested that Todd had
00:51:07
been crying he also said that Sparks and popping sounds were coming from the utility pole where the wires met the
00:51:16
house and that Todd commented to him that they had some trouble with the electricity one of the first responding
00:51:23
firefighters testified that when he arrived Todd approached him and told him that his babies were in the house he
00:51:31
could see that the front rooms of the house were Ablaze including the floors and the porch he entered the home
00:51:39
through the front door and noted that the back door was blocked by a refrigerator the Twins were on the floor
00:51:47
in the front bedroom burned Beyond any possibility of survival on the stand this firefighter referred to the will
00:51:55
inham home as the crime scene and Martin moved for a mistrial but the judge denied his motion he also denied
00:52:05
Martin's motion to exclude the inflammatory photos of the two charred infants corpses introduced into evidence
00:52:13
by the prosecution the firefighter whose last name is Franks continued to testify
00:52:19
he said that at the scene on the day of the fire Todd did not exhibit any symptoms of smoke inhalation
00:52:26
Franks also said that when he was at the scene after the fire to collect evidence
00:52:31
Todd was also there and was looking through the house for his Dart set and was quite upset about not being able to
00:52:38
find it right Ethel Baptist a nurse who was on duty at the hospital testified that Todd did a lot of crying and saying
00:52:48
that he should have died with his girls it should have been him instead of them she saw only small burns on Todd on his
00:52:57
hands and back and his hair and eyebrows and lashes were singed on cross Martin asked her if she knew that Todd had soot
00:53:08
in his nasal cavities and throat she said she was not aware of this but when press admitted that one would get soot
00:53:17
in these areas after breathing in smoke after carefully setting up the narrative that Todd willing was
00:53:26
self-centered calculated violent psychopath who wanted his kids out of the way so he could
00:53:32
pursue various recreational activities prosecutor John Jackson called Douglas fog the fire investigator to the stand
00:53:42
fog testified that investigators could not find any accidental causes of the fire including gas leaks and no
00:53:50
electrical shorts he said the space heater was off Note they checked this days after the fire so technically
00:53:58
anyone could have turned it to the off position correct the glass windows were examples of craze glass which can be
00:54:08
caused by fire burning and accelerant the fire seemed to burn low to the floor rather than high up there was a puddling
00:54:17
effect on the floor in the hallway and in the kids room indicating a liquid was poured the floor was burning underneath
00:54:25
the metal threshold plate at the front door this indicating the presence of an accelerant the wood under the aluminum
00:54:33
threshold and a melted charcoal lighter fluid container tested positive for quote mineral spirits of kerosene this
00:54:43
accelerant the the kind that would be found in charcoal lighter fluid woodf fires don't burn hotter than
00:54:51
800° and the degree of damage to the alumin umum threshold piece shows that this fire burned hotter requiring an
00:55:00
accelerant and the burn V patterns and puddling showed that the fire was started in three different locations
00:55:07
accidental fires don't start in three different locations fog's testimony was backed up
00:55:14
by Manuel Vasquez the state arson investigator he bragged on the stand that he investigated 1,00 to 1500 fires
00:55:24
in quote most all of them had turned out to be arson and that he never knew of a
00:55:29
time when he was wrong he said he knew the fire was arson from his investigation of the scene but also
00:55:37
because Todd had told him a story of pure fabrication if Todd had really looked for his children in the burning home his
00:55:46
feet would have been burned and he did not appear to have any signs of smoke inhalation when Vasquez spoke with him
00:55:55
days after the fire over objections from the defense attorneys Vasquez was permitted to answer a question from the
00:56:06
prosecutor based on your investigation and our examination of the scene and your conclusions can you tell what the
00:56:15
arsonist intended to do by setting this fire his response yes his intent was to kill the little girls the state
00:56:25
presented the two Pathologists who performed the autopsies they testified that the girls died of carbon monoxide
00:56:32
poisoning from smoke inhalation they also said that because of the charred nature of the kids bodies it would be
00:56:40
difficult to determine whether there were any surface injuries to the kids that predated the fire but that they did
00:56:47
not observe any internal injuries or broken bones an ER doctor testified that Todd had first degree burns on his face
00:56:57
and neck a small second degree burn on his right shoulder and a blister burn on his middle finger on his left hand he
00:57:06
also had soot present in his nose and in the back of his throat with a slight cough but his carbon monoxide level was
00:57:15
only 3% this consistent with being a smoker which Todd was and with all this daming
00:57:22
evidence against Todd this is where the prosecution will [Music] rest one to remind everybody to check
00:57:34
out our other show it's a great show sometimes it's funny sometimes it's mystery sometimes it's more True Crime
00:57:41
you never know what you're going to get this week for the people that listen to off the record on Stitcher premium they
00:57:46
got to hear me and the captain talk about what we call the serial killers of Comedy check out Stitcher premium off
00:57:53
the Record yeah the Lopper you get to hear about the Lopper thanks for joining us in the garage and
00:58:00
be kind to everybody that's right you better be kind also be good and don't [Music]
00:58:23
litter Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I thought it was an Eco move for your
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worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iconic must be a tech thing but those aren't
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quite right it's because now you can compare upfront prices book a service instantly and even get your project
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handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us so much more than
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