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n [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
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listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man offering some foreshadowing that we will have to
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Circle back to ladies and gentlemen here is the captain I offer foreshadowing and
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for skinning it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listen list in thanks for telling a
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friend today we are still sipping on some angels perch Amber this is a deep mahogany colored American Amber with a
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toasty and Rich caramel multi base a little sweet nice and smooth garage grade three
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and 3/4 bottle caps and let's give some thanks and praise to our good friends for helping us out with this week's
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shows first up we have a cheers to Shira and Ogden Utah and a big we like you jib
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goes out to Ted McDaniel and Winchester Virginia here's a shout out to Kelly V in Scottdale Arizona and a big tall cans
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in the air goes out to Larry Collins and fruta Colorado and last but certainly not least Captain we have a double
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fisted shears that goes out to Kristen and Amelia and Hastings Nebraska everyone we just mentioned they
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business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
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[Music] all right Captain this is where things go from scary bad to even worse this is the point point of no
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return unfortunately because 4 days later this was an expansive search for Amber Hagerman the this was an all
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Hands-On deck situation we had not only the Arlington PD but all of the surrounding jurisdictions and law
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enforcement agencies working looking for her as well this was a ribbons on trees
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and ribbons on Street Lamp Post situation everybody praying and hoping for a safe return but those hopes would
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be squashed because 4 days later after the abduction on January 17th this is in the early morning hours we have a man
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who is out walking his dog near the Forest Hills Apartments which is a very large apartment complex in Arlington he
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came across a gruesome site the this apartment complex Captain is only a few short miles from the abduction site so
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it's roughly 3.2 miles from the abduction site where Amber was taken just four days prior and the body is
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found in a stream and this is a large stream of water and the area had experienced some pretty extreme weather
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leading up to this with heavy rainfall and downpours prior to the finding of this little girl
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who you know how these situations go everyone hopes that it's not Amber even the police hoping that it's not Amber
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but when you have an area with an abduction that took place so close in time so close in
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proximity and you don't have a whole lot of missing people everything's telling you you probably just found the one
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that's been missing the one that they were putting those ribbons on the lamp post and trees for the documentary Amber
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the girl behind the alert is is very powerful to watch on many levels like we said there was a news crew that was
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following around the family and following around Amber and Amber's mother about her her living situation
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and getting her life on track basically well once Amber goes missing they decide
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hey we're going to get involved we're going to share some of this footage we're going to
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share pictures and videos and we're going to basically make it advertisement if you will hey here's a missing girl we
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need to find her so they're filming all this stuff in real time and I I believe it was the
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FBI had a a consultant that worked with the family so when there was information or there
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was updates on what was going on with Amber's case that she was informing the the family so we have this girl found is
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it Amber and you can see it in real time you you get to see the family they they
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see the news clip is this Amber and then you have this consultant I guess is the
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best way to what You' call her but she is waiting on word to let me know when to tell the family if this is Amber or
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not Amber so it's a very tragic story I also think it's important to see because
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sometimes we don't humanize these stories as much as they should be humanized and to see a family in the
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moments you know when they hear the news report I'm sure most of them thought it's most like
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her but you have to keep a positive outlook until you know until you know you don't know and I I don't know if you
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what you felt about that that scene in the documentary but to me I thought that was just that gut-wrenching and and what
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a horrible situation for a family to be in yes of course I shared all of those emotions trying to take the emotion out
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of it one thing that I did find in sight about the documentary was this is a case
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that I've read about for many years it's an old case and as far as I can see it looks like a Cold Case at this point
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unfortunately but as much as I've read about this case over the years I had never seen the images whether it be a
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picture or film of this Creek because everything I've ever read about this case captain always refers to this as a
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creek or a stream but but because of the heavy downpour of rain and downfall of rain that they had leading up to finding
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her that video footage shows what is called a creek or a stream it looks like a whitewater rafting Tri
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type of situation to me like this was this water was much more significant than I had expected it was larger than I
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had expected and The Waters at the time were quite rough and you hear there's so
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the way that this 911 call goes down is this guy he goes out he's walking his dog in the early morning hours the dog
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kind of leads him down to like almost alert him to the body the way that he describes it so he comes back home he
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lives in this apartment complex he goes back to his apartment and he notifies I believe it's a girlfriend or wife says
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call 911 I think I found that girl that's missing yeah and he goes I'm going back down
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there because the creek the water is powerful it's moving man and he doesn't want he doesn't want that to get carried
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Downstream okay and so he goes back down there one to point out the area to Personnel when they start to arrive but
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also two to make sure that she's not carried away and so now you have the person that he lives with phoning 911
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call in from looking out the window and explaining like no he yes he's going to stay with the body and he's not leaving
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per what he told me he rushed back down there please hurry please hurry we think
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we found that that missing girl and so to see the water was was pretty insightful to me because you look at
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these things and trying to take the emotion out of it you want to learn more about the crime scene and we've we've
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told the listeners this over the years in this situation we have a lot of crime scenes right we know that we have one
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crime scene is the abduction site between the laundry mat and the old grocery store the old wind Dixie in that
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parking lot which is about three miles away mind you not terribly far away another crime scene is the abductor
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truck that he transport that he used to transport Amber Hagerman in his vehicle yeah the next crime scene is wherever
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she was killed because she wasn't killed in this Creek in the stream of water she
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was placed Dumping Ground yeah this this [ __ ] monster dumps this 9-year-old that he murdered naked she's wearing but
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one sock when she's found these are the these are the people that when they get caught and something
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bad happens to them whether it's in prison or by law enforcement or whatever you you don't feel too bad for him of
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course absolutely not and so this person whoever discarded of this little girl you saw the way that it plays out in the
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documentary this isn't like this Creek this stream is not right outside the doors of
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this apartment complex and when I say apartment complex we're not the first ones to describe it as a very large
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apartment complex you could see they had multiple buildings and even the detectives describe it as this is a very
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large apartment complex which has both positive and negative values to your investigation as an investigator you're
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hoping one could it be as simple as we find a truck that matches that vague description sitting in this parking lot
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somewhere in this large apartment complex parking lot and we can tie truck owner who happens to live in this
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apartment complex to where we found her body do you have the opportunity where maybe if the person doesn't live at that
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apartment complex who committed this horrible crime is there a chance that somebody living there saw the individual
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transporting the body to this location well this is to me more suggestive evidence we
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have yes it's on the main road but the the side of this abandoned grocery store it's not something you think uh uh
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somebody passing through town would just spot an individual and then we have eyewitness saying well the the
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kidnapper went back into town and then so the kidnapping site isn't that far from the grandparents
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house he went onto a main road and then like you were stating earlier this dump site isn't that far from the
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grandparents house so to me this is all suggest that the individual this murderous piece
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of [ __ ] person that should burn in hell most likely probably lives in that town
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oh yeah I agree 100% with the with the thought that th this person lives in the area lives in the
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area 100% now I will I'll agree and disagree with you in some regard the place where she was taken from I would
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describe that and others have described it as far from an isolated area meaning that I do think that there's a good
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chance that somebody just driving by did a snatch and grab and took off with this
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little girl yeah where she's where I will agree with you 1000% man is where she was dumped no where where she was
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placed whoever placed her body in that water knew about that water prior to they didn't just drive around looking
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for a creek somewhere they had some prior knowledge of that spot well question for you because like you said
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it's not just this Creek that's just water is just stagnant is The Dumping spot the apartment complex or is it
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possibly further down and this is just where she ended it up and this is where somebody found her that's interesting to
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ponder because of a couple reasons and and and the the reasons being that we are relying on other persons that we've
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not spoke to with their opinions on the case people that were there that were there and have reviewed this crime scene
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and the general thought it seems like the general consensus is that she was either a found exactly where she was
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placed or B found very close to where she was placed into the water meaning she could have been Upstream a little
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bit ways but they the way that they describe the turns of this body of water of this
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stream which keep in mind it's proper to describe it as a streamer Creek because
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it had simply swelled from all of this this downfall of water but the turns in the debris and rocks and sticks and
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branches and trees that have fallen into this space they they believe the people
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that were at the crime scene believe that she's was either placed very close to where she was found or if she was
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placed Upstream it wasn't very far from where she was vent located but this to me goes back to something that we were
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talking about before and even talking about something off mic and I'll let you if you let me go through my thought
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first one thing we had talked about off Mike was and I agreee with you 100% everything at the abduction site and
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based off of what the eyewitness statements are it's suggestive and indicative of a
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stranger abduction now that doesn't mean that 1,00% it is a stranger abduction that's that's something we talked about
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off Mike but what I'm kind of doubling down here on with my thoughts of it is a stranger
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abduction is the abduction site the eyewitness statements are suggestive that it is a stranger abduction and then
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when you compound that with what we later learn about where she is placed and and the statements of well she was
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found very close to where she was placed that if if the water carrying the victim
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away or concealing the victim you would do it in another manner than simply placing her in water this to me looked
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like we have a snatch and grab abduction very quickly boom boom boom get out of there and same thing with the getting
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rid of her is just simply I just need to I cannot be caught with with Amber in my possession in my home in my
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vehicle where can I go where can I go oh I'll Place her there I don't really care
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if the stream takes her away I don't really care to spend extra time and effort to try to bury her somewhere it's
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more important for the kidnapper not to be seen yes than for her body to be washed
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away right because the in the Killer's mind at during this whole time he's only concerned with his major
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concern is don't be seen with her my only connection to her right now would be for me to be seen with Amber dead or
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alive right but the things that make this so from an investigator standpoint the the things that make this case
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difficult to review beyond the emotional stressors that come with reviewing a case that's this horrific and this scary
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to talk about is the we have this kind of weird Confluence of information about the evidence right that it's all over
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the shop on her injuries and her let's say degree of sexual assault which is a sentence that I had hoped I would never
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have to ever put together but unfortunately we just did it's our fault we chose to do a true crime podcast so I
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blame I blame us for this one yes it it is on our shoulders my friend the but Amber had been killed elsewhere as we
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said the she died from several cut wounds to her neck the thing that's troubling about that is that there's not
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great detail on that information which I don't know that we would be comfortable
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delivering anyway to the listeners but but it it doesn't give us any level to me any way any level of understanding
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about the the killer themselves and then the the reports that made their way to the papers and to the internet
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eventually on this case would be that she was sexually assaulted repeatedly some statements are some statements is
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she was sexually assaulted repeatedly that just stopped short of intercourse and then in the documentary
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nobody it seems like they're they're a little cage about having a definitive opinion on the sexual assault or rape of
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the victim because what what they're telling us and they being the current detectives working the case or
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detectives that are second generation detectives let's say persons that inherited the case a couple years after
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what they're all kind of saying is that they they're not convinced that an actual maybe true to definition sexual
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assault or rape took place but that there was certainly a sexual component to the Abduction of murder yeah I wonder
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if there was some kind of like you know digital molestation it's hard to say I think all
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the evidence points to this idea that it's a stranger and that the person's local but I think where the cops did a
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good job and it's so frustrating this case it's one of those cases where you go oh well yeah Amber she's the reason
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why we have the Amber Alert it's like you've heard of this case for so many years and then to dive into the research
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there's so many fascinating points and I think one of the fascinating points is why the hell is it a cold case because I
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think law enforcement did a good job instead of putting blinders on and going look the evidence is telling us it's
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most likely a stranger and most likely a local that didn't stop law enforcement from interviewing and questioning and
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looking and having some suspicious um eyes when it came to family members and friends and even
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looking at possible outside of the city suspects I think they did a good job of of trying to uh uncover you know lift up
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every stone and and and and look in every direction and dive down every Rabbit Hole you're exactly right I think
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they did the best job that they could but you know we say why is this a cold case and I think that to go to the
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negative of something right we were talking earlier about this large apartment complex where she's found near
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there's positive for your investigation and there's a negative to it the negative is that if those two positives
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don't pan out for you remember maybe we find the guy's truck here that it's as simple as the guy lives here or if we
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can't get this suspect having been in this area living in this area at the time of the crime maybe we
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can find somebody that saw him coming or going from this area now we have a second or third or fourth eyewitness
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that's your positive that's your what you're hoping for when you figure out oh we found this poor girl and this is
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where we found her and this large this large apartment complex the negative for your investigation is now you're stuck
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there canvasing this area because you have to it would be irresponsible and frankly just down right dumb not to but
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if either of those positives don't pan out for your investigation now you've spent all this time in this compressed
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area right and not out chasing down other leads can can you give me this answer I I don't know I don't know it
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off the top of my head she's kidnapped on a Saturday what day is her body found so she's kidnapped on what would be
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Saturday the 13th and I so glad that you Circle back to this my friend she's found 4 days later on the 17th now we
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have a situation here where the medical examiner comes out and says these are the wounds there's some kind of sexual
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assault here and uh some reports state that she was beaten as well that the and but there are other reports that
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state that that there was no bruising that was found from postmortem from when she was in the water so those bruises
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they have determined they came prior to her death so we had we're armed with that information but the medical
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examiner comes out and says found on the 17th we believe she was kept for a couple days so she would have been
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killed sometime on the 15th maybe even on the 16th and we believe that she was in that water for 12 to about 24 hours
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why is that important that is important because of this we started off the show talking about important dates important
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days Days of the Week dates where it falls on the calendar and if you look at the calendar for 1996 she's abducted on
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a Saturday afternoon approximately 300 p.m. if the medical examiner is right and we have no reason to believe that
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they are not that she was kept alive for a couple of days before she was killed on the 15th or 16th and then placed in
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the water well the 14th is a Sunday the 15th is a holiday a national holiday for most people at most
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occupations that's Martin Luther King Jr Day MLK Day Some people have jobs where
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they don't go to work on MLK day and when you look at that timeline I look at at at it as simple as this if this
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killer had the ability to keep her somewhere that means he very like either lives alone or has a space to
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himself for a period of time yeah no and I look I'm going to go I think unfortunately I think he killed her
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because he had to go back to work and couldn't keep her while he couldn't supervise and oversee the situation yeah
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I'm going to throw this out there serial killer because what have we seen in so many of these serial killers this this
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is a family man I believe truck it was a new her truck it was clean and we've seen this so many times where these Sero
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killers they go oh well my uh wife and kids are going to go visit her family I'll come up with the excuse of why I
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can't go and then I can Comm I commit whatever crime and and whether it's a basement or it's a shed or some place
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that if somebody does come back I can hide her in this facility this Kill Zone facility if you will
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until I can then dispose of her and that would make a lot of sense wife and kids
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go out of town for the weekend they're going to come back on Monday night or Tuesday morning and I'm going to have to
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go to work so I'm going to have to get this all done within this time frame we got a lot more to get to right after
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this quick beer break [Music] all right we are back thanks for telling your mother thanks for telling your
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brother talk hands in the air cheers to the people in the back cheers to you Colonel cheers to the people
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upstairs how did they get there we don't know no all right cheers you there's a very small ladder these cases that go
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decades where it seems like law enforcement has done a good job one of the things that is involved
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in so many of these cases that we don't have answers for is victims that are found in water well it's troubling I
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because here's the problem there are a lot of victims out there that are buried that are never
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recovered true and then you have a situation like this where look we're looking for the killer there's other
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problems with your investigation there's there's killers of your investigation time is a killer in your
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investigation and here the water is the killer of your evidence and I think that
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that is why we get such an inconclusive statements so many inconclusive statements and almost
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confusing statements regarding SE ual assault with the victim here because I think that the water and the situation
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remember I described it as a white water rafting type of situation I think that that Rushing Water did a lot to destroy
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evidence and maybe some of that evidence is gone forever I hope and pray not technology gets better every single
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day and so I think that that is something that has worked in the favor of the Killer and then we don't have
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anybody at that apartment complex saying that they saw this person come in and and place the body or we don't have a
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better description of the vehicle and and not just a I'm not faulting our eyewitness for not giving us a better
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description of the vehicle what I what I mean by that is we don't have another person coming forward with the same
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description of the vehicle saying I saw this vehicle here and this is what the person driving it look like we would
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want to know the movements of that vehicle look I'm just I'm just a guy in a garage here but if I don't care how
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many ladder I don't care how many black pickup trucks are out there in the area I think this guy could still be very
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local and I also think that it could be just as simple as he parked the truck in
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the garage in his garage for a period of time that he had this poor victim and you can drive around all day and night
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we know that they've done that in plenty of cases I there's a case uh from Virginia a case from Pennsylvania that
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we've talked about where they they had a great eyewitness descriptions of the vehicle the suspect vehicle that they
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were looking for vehicles that had body damage to them which makes them unique but they couldn't find them they never
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found them because every time that they were driving in the neighborhood of the killer that they later identified and
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arrested and convicted we learned that simply he parked it in his garage it wasn't parked on the street or in the
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driveway during the time that they were out in masses looking for that vehicle now we talked off Mike
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here Captain about how how much this case disturbs us but equally there even with as little
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information as there is out there because there's just we just don't have additional Witnesses we just don't have
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additional evidence there's something about this case and I can't put my finger on it but
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it's a powerful case and it's one it's a great ring case it's one that that has gotten a hold of me and I know it's
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gotten a hold of you recently too and it's like we're just trying to find a road map to more information and and to
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lead us to something now I will say there were good good suspects that they did investigate over the their years and
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and the police as you pointed out APD put together a task force and and did a good job in a thorough job and continue
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to work this case very diligently to this very day the task force for my understanding disbanded in 1999 so it
00:31:02
was together for a good deal of time and during that time they looked at uh other
00:31:07
offenders and they did the old pervert Roundup early on in the investigation as they should it would be strange not to I
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wanted to seek out the experience from experts persons that had worked similar cases so people that not
00:31:23
are not necessarily talking specifically about Amber hagerman's case but are talking about cases that have a lot of
00:31:30
similarities here is what I was able to come up with here captain and this is from Ken Lanning Ken Lanning who is he
00:31:37
he is an individual that worked with a lot of the first generation M hunters for the FBI the captain referenced an
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FBI Personnel coming into this investigation early on and one person in particular working almost hand inand
00:31:54
with the family over the course of of several days if not weeks and one thing we do know based off because we had that
00:32:01
eyewitness statement of this being an abduction and the description that was provided by the eyewitness of that
00:32:08
abduction Texas called in the FBI serial killer child abduction unit they were brought in and spent many days in
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Arlington Texas working this case so I wanted to seek out some experts opinions on similar cases and Ken Anning we
00:32:29
recommended his book a while back it is I'm going to get this wrong I should have put it in my notes it was uh well
00:32:38
it's one of get things wrong I man I tell you the the title of the book is love bombs and child
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molesters and I know that that seems like that's a very strange title but it's a very good book yeah but the
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problem with a title like that that's not a book that you want to pick up at the bookstore and take it to the
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checkout no and that's my only problem with the title the thing is I don't think that Ken Lanning his goal was to I
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don't think his goal was to sell any books and I don't think that he was trying to set up a situation where he
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wouldn't sell any books but if you read the book you understand right away why it is called that because it's he he's a
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former FBI agent who worked a lot of child molester child abduction cases and he worked a lot of bombing cases and
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he's a a man who very much loves his wife and loves his children and his grandchildren so the
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book is about the three things that he knows the most about and so Ken Lanning he describes the four phases of
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abduction for the offender for a similar type offender and he says those four phases are one buildup two abduction
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three post abduction and four for the recovery SLR phase in the buildup the subject engages in fantasy that creates
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some need for sexual activity although it may not start out child oriented he validates and rationalizes his Fantasy
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by talking to others who share or encourage it or by looking at pornographic material that fuels it
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there could be a precipitating stress that prompts the subject to act on his fantasies and then either an opportunity
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presents itself or the offender plans and creates one when the subject is ready to carry out the abduction victim
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selection becomes key so those are the four phases according to an expert Ken Lanning and then let's take that a step
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further here I was looking at some of Douglas's cases John Douglas's cases he's mentioned this in several cases and
00:35:01
I found it to be intriguing because it really mirrors some of the little known details that we have in Amber's
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case and Douglas says when we see this type of crime so what he's talking about is a
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crime where a snatch and grab abduction stranger abduction stranger abduction in Broad
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day light in an area that people would not refer to as isolated where there could
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be eyewitnesses Douglas says when we see this type of crime the first thing we think of is a somewhat younger
00:35:41
unsophisticated perhaps disorganized offender with a highly developed sexual fantasy that he is increasingly
00:35:50
desperate to act out when we see a high-risk crime we expect the victim to be kept alive for a relatively longer
00:36:00
period of time meaning in unfortunately in most cases where a woman is abducted raped and
00:36:08
murdered it all happens relatively quickly it happens within 45 minutes an hour 2 hours 3
00:36:19
hours it doesn't take a lot of time for those horrific nightmare situations to play out Amber situation and we know
00:36:27
this based off of the medical examiner she's abducted in broad daylight it's a high high risk factor
00:36:37
and the me says that she was kept alive for a couple of days this doesn't tell us this doesn't tell these things don't
00:36:43
tell us who the Killer is but these things tell us who the killer about tell us some things about the Killer and
00:36:51
there was some individuals close to the family and members of the family that law enforcement had to look into
00:37:00
obviously you have this separation of the parents so you have to then go well where was the dad what was his
00:37:08
involvement they they figured out his whereabouts so he wouldn't have been even in the area and then you have to
00:37:15
start looking at maybe friends of his because we do have a separation we don't have him with any set of uh custody set
00:37:27
up through through the courts so you have to look at that angle there's some people that
00:37:33
maybe looks wise and I don't think you should judge every book by its cover but there are a bunch of individuals that
00:37:43
were close to the family that law enforcement looked into I don't know if they ruled them out
00:37:50
publicly I believe they did with the father because he had a pretty solid alibi but I but I also think even if you're a
00:38:01
person that law enforcement looked at you could understand why they're not going to rule
00:38:06
out some individuals publicly well some of the people that they did they they've
00:38:12
actually the task force have ruled out I I don't know if I would say a considerable number of people over the
00:38:20
years but we do know that they have ruled out some very bad people but they've also ruled out some people that
00:38:26
were not very bad people close to the investigation okay so with the father's situation you're exactly right Captain
00:38:33
it's my understanding that he was either at work or with several other people at
00:38:39
the time of the abduction and also this is not a location that was particularly close to the site of the abduction so it
00:38:47
would be even if those persons are off by 30 minutes or an hour on their time frame he couldn't have made it there in
00:38:54
time to do what he did the other thing that complicates things too is your suspect changes after you find your body
00:39:03
why because in most abductions the sexual assault and murder take place very quickly here that's not the
00:39:11
situation the medical examiner tells you within 24 hours or so of finding the body that she was alive for for days
00:39:20
into the abduction days after the abduction so dad who is sitting with Mom and consoling her and crying on camera
00:39:30
during those days that Amber was alive doesn't make for a good suspect now that you found the body his friend or family
00:39:39
members or sorry friends that were close to family members also being present during the time searching for Amber do
00:39:47
not make for good suspects now because of what we know somebody had the ability to keep her and
00:39:54
unfortunately they damn it I hatte saying these things out loud she wasn't just kept in a Cellar somewhere yeah in
00:40:02
the dark somebody was doing stuff to her during the course of that time somebody
00:40:06
had to be physically present with her during that time period and the people that were helping look for her and the
00:40:13
people that especially were on camera consoling the family and being there for the family aren't good suspects because
00:40:20
their whereabouts even if they're not accounted for for the 8 minutes when she disappeared their whereabouts are
00:40:26
accounted for for those two days that somebody some monster kept her for yeah but the the monster wouldn't have to be
00:40:32
present the whole time but but it not the whole time but it gets but he can't harm her when he's not there exactly he
00:40:40
can't live out whatever sick fantasy he has and that and that's what's weird I the more cases we do especially when the
00:40:48
victim is a child it's like I don't I don't always think eye for an eye is the the right way to look at things and life
00:40:57
but for some reason when it comes to cases where there the victim is a child I don't even just want to eye for an eye
00:41:06
I want like Oh eye for every piece of your body because you deserve whatever you did to the victim you it should be
00:41:15
done to you 10 times over especially when it comes to Children th this case is so frustrating
00:41:22
because we do have a like you said a solid eyewitness but could you imagine imagine
00:41:27
being a close family friend and you show up to just help Amber's gone somebody took her okay I'm I'm on my way and then
00:41:34
you get there and they say oh well we have eyewitness and uh and um got a good look at the guy didn't get a license
00:41:42
plate but he had a single cab small bed black truck and you're you're the family
00:41:50
friend with a single cab small bed black truck that would be uh a little bit of a
00:41:57
uncomfortable situation to be in and he did allow law enforcement to process his
00:42:02
truck uh we should point out that one thing that is missing from the eyewitness account when we look at this
00:42:10
family friend's vehicle he drove his truck for work and so on the side of his truck I'm sure you
00:42:20
noticed this during the documentary they showed his truck yeah on camera on the side of his truck what was on the side
00:42:26
of his truck a big advertisement for his company right and what we don't have in
00:42:31
the eyewitness statement is oh yeah I saw a company name plastered on the side of the V of the truck well like you said
00:42:39
I think the eyewitness got a good look at at the side of the truck here's what I always wondered because if it is a
00:42:47
stranger on Stranger crime if the kidnapper if this monster of a person is local is it possible that this V vehicle
00:42:57
was a work vehicle and not a daily driver for them meaning like I said this guy maybe he has a family maybe they're
00:43:08
out for the holiday weekend to visit other other family members and he comes up with a a ruse of why he has to stay
00:43:16
back but that his family and other individuals never suspected him when people hear a single cab small bed black
00:43:25
truck they're not put in two and two together because this is not a daily vehicle for that individual well with
00:43:32
this case you know I already referenced some information from John Douglas and from Ken Lanning two of the top cops two
00:43:42
of the top experts in this field and and what we're talking about here today but
00:43:48
really that was reviewing information that they've given out and thoughts and opinions from their experience on cases
00:43:55
that are very similar to the Amber Hagerman case not her case specifically so I took that a step further Captain
00:44:05
what I did was I reached out to Jeffrey rck former FBI agent who has was involved in solving several big
00:44:13
high-profile cases in fact he's put away at least one serial killer a couple that
00:44:19
that we're aware of and he unfortunately and I say this because I know that it has had a very
00:44:27
big impact on him emotionally and as a person that he had the unfortunate task of working a lot of child abduction and
00:44:38
child murder cases and so he's seen both a lot of stranger abduction cases and also cases where the victim knew the
00:44:49
perpetrator and so I reached out to him and I said look I just want to get some of your opinions on this case and let
00:44:56
I'll go through through some of our correspondents here regarding Amber's case and I I described the crime to him
00:45:04
and I said Amber was out riding her bike with her little brother she was nine her
00:45:08
brother was just five of course they rode off to a spot where they were not supposed to go but not too far from the
00:45:14
route they typically were allowed to travel which is basically a big circle back to Grandma and Grandpa's house the
00:45:21
boy decided to go home instead of playing longer at the parking lot that they had ventured off to it was a large
00:45:27
parking lot with three freestanding businesses an auto shop a laundry mat and a grocery store that had been closed
00:45:33
in out of business Amber was riding up and down the ramp that went into the back of the grocery store this area was
00:45:40
visible to some homes that the Lots backed up to Amber's grandparents neighborhood a man in a dark pickup
00:45:49
truck pulled in and took the little girl leaving the bike behind she was found 4
00:45:54
days later in a large Creek near a very large apartment complex her throat was cut the apartment complex was in North
00:46:02
Arlington the abduction site was East Arlington distance about 3 miles the medical examiner said that she was kept
00:46:09
alive for a couple of days I was curious if you would offer up any insights about
00:46:14
the offender based on the general information about this crime she was only gone from the house for 8 minutes
00:46:22
the kids and their mother were visiting the grandparents house this to me suggest a stranger abduction it occurred
00:46:29
during broad daylight and was witnessed by an old man in the neighborhood who called 911 he reported an abduction
00:46:36
because she screamed she was grabbed not lured into the truck the auto shop the laundry mat both had customers that day
00:46:45
I think the time of day the short distance between the abduction site and the creek along with the seemingly
00:46:52
randomness of the vulnerable little victim could tell us a lot about the Killer to which Mr rck responded that he
00:47:00
was going to take some time to look into some of the logistics and the postmortem
00:47:05
about the case and I had told him that I was reaching out to him because the case
00:47:09
was bothering me more than normal and so he asked me can you tell me what bothers
00:47:15
you about the case and any Theory or conclusions you are hoping to address to which my response here Captain is it's
00:47:23
difficult to put into words but the seemingly Randomness and impulsivity of the abduction is what is nagging at me
00:47:29
compounded with her being kept and the disposed of where and when she was she was grabbed in the early afternoon in
00:47:36
broad daylight in a location that was far from isolated the perpetrator may not have even had a weapon it just keeps
00:47:45
running through my mind that some guy was driving home from the bar sees the girl and acts the desirability due to
00:47:52
her age may not have been there for him but rather the vulnerability of the young victim alone that encourages him
00:47:59
to strike but the risk level is significant so much so that he is spotted in the ACT he keeps her for a
00:48:06
couple of days must live alone and then places her in the creek at a spot where he feels comfortable that he will not be
00:48:14
seen disposing her of he already knows that he was seen once he can't risk it again it's not a quick walk you've seen
00:48:23
it Captain it's not a quick walk from the parking lot to the creek it's not as simple as just backing up your truck
00:48:30
I've seen it suggested th this is the insightful part here I've seen it suggested that the knife SL throat cut
00:48:39
may be indicative of a lack of control or Panic the thinking is that Suffocation or strangulation would
00:48:48
exhibit more control over the victim but I told Mr rck I said could he have simply killed the victim due to his
00:48:55
lifestyle she was taken on the 13th Saturday the 13th and I go on to tell Mr rck I looked up MLK Day for 1996 it's
00:49:05
Monday the 15th it's believed that her death was approximate her approximate death was sometime on January 15th he
00:49:12
couldn't keep her any longer as he had to go back to work she's found on the 17th so they could be somewhat off on
00:49:20
the time of death so then if that's the case the knife the use of the knife in cutting her throat is not a lack of
00:49:27
control I said I figure it's a younger man mid 20s with a job that does that does not require a lot of interaction
00:49:34
with others but afforded him a day off on Martin Luther King Day who lived or worked at the apartment complex at one
00:49:43
time but not at the time of the murder as they were looking for a black truck although of course a lot of trucks are
00:49:51
in Texas he likely works with his hands probably carries a knife or box cutter at work lived alone at the time and had
00:49:58
a small Social Circle probably did not grow up in Arlington and likely moved after when things settled down and when
00:50:06
things were convenient but not in a rush this would be months afterwards without
00:50:10
taking up too much more of your time am I way off of Base here to which Mr rck tells us he thinks that
00:50:20
the way that the injuries with her having several injuries to the neck as described from the information he
00:50:29
reviewed keep in mind he's not reviewed the body he's not reviewed the actual autopsy this is information that is
00:50:36
available to all of us right but again he is an expert in this very dark world that we're talking
00:50:45
about he's saying that he believes that the injuries are suggestive that it's not a
00:50:55
firsttime offender and I want to be clear on what he's saying here he's without going through his entire email
00:51:03
he's telling me Captain that he doesn't believe that this he's not saying that this is not the first time that this guy
00:51:11
has murdered right he's not saying this is the second murder or third murder he's saying he believes that this person
00:51:18
has offended before meaning sexually assaulted a child raped a woman abducted a kid something of that nature prior to
00:51:28
this murder but has never murdered before and he's saying that he believes that Amber was murdered because this guy has
00:51:38
he's either on the radar or has been scared to the point where he thought he would be arrested for prior crimes or
00:51:45
was actually arrested for a prior crime that did not involve murder so it's it's
00:51:51
interesting to hear somebody with that level of expertise say that it because it's a fine line of what Mr rck is
00:51:58
saying that the murder was done to cover up the crimes of abduction and sexual assault he didn't want to
00:52:11
leave a witness alive he didn't want to leave the victim alive because the victim could potentially identify
00:52:18
him he's saying that the the way that the wounds are described in the new newspapers and on
00:52:27
the internet show that he may not have done this before that being the murder part which
00:52:35
that gives us if that is true then now you've really shrunk your suspect pool you're looking for somebody that has
00:52:43
committed similar crimes without a murder that they've I either been caught for or not caught but I would be looking
00:52:51
for somebody that was interviewed questioned suspected of and They carried out the murder to cover up the crimes
00:53:01
all right Captain let me read directly from some of Mr Rik statements to me he says quote I believe this is not a
00:53:10
firsttime offender because many times a firsttime offender will not murder the victim who is also the best
00:53:17
witness additionally I believe from experience that if the wounds were the cause of death they were not efficient
00:53:25
and the offender might not have been certain if he affected death which could indicate a lack of experience in causing
00:53:33
death he goes on to say that it's unfortunate that we don't have better information about these wounds and he is
00:53:41
hoping that this information was shared in detail with the task force members at
00:53:47
the time he wants to be clear that he is he says I would have to conclude that anything I offer has no value other than
00:53:57
General suggestions such as I offer in this email because he's not seeing this information for himself he's
00:54:05
not working the case himself but he goes on to say I was saddened to see an offender has not been identified or
00:54:12
suspected in considering the progress of forensic science I hope this makes sense
00:54:18
I can understand why this would bother you because it bothers me and reminds me of my experiences so I want to make sure
00:54:25
that we think Mr rck for taking the time to answer some of my questions on this case and allowing me to disrupt his
00:54:35
daily life with a couple of out of the blue questions about a very haunting and a very sad case this
00:54:43
is one of those cases captain that has remained in the news it's a big case for all of Texas it
00:54:54
really is you could tell watching the docu mentary you can tell that the with the sad reminder of the anniversary that
00:55:00
comes up every year of when this little girl was abducted when she was later found and
00:55:08
they've still not resolved this case but it does lead to the creation of the Amber Alert which has been a tool it's
00:55:18
been a a warning it's been a way to try to bring kids home to get kids returned safely and to
00:55:26
even beyond that identify the suspect or perpetrator of the actual abduction and
00:55:32
and take them to justice I will say this I did review at least one article and I
00:55:37
won't name the authors of that article that they went on this long report of How It's not ever truly been proven that
00:55:46
the Amber Alert has is directly responsible for saving lives or that the Amber Alert is directly responsible for
00:55:56
bringing kids home or identifying abductors I don't want to say their names because look understanding crime
00:56:04
statistics understanding crime Trends is very important to communities and it's necessary for keeping people safe so
00:56:12
them discussing the outcome of this fine I think it's in very poor taste though who gives a [ __ ] why even question it
00:56:22
there is no way to prove there's no numbers you can't prove because there's truth in what they're
00:56:30
saying here Captain because an amber alert went out throughout the community oh it scared the perpetrator and he
00:56:38
decided not to kill the victim and let him go right I'm sure that if you dig deep enough you can find a perpetrator
00:56:45
that was later arrested that ends up telling police yeah I got scared I heard the Amber Alert go off I it's it was on
00:56:52
the news I got scared I decided I got got to get rid of this victim that that that I've taken I
00:56:59
got to let him or her go I'm sure that if you dig deep enough you could actually find someone so maybe shame on
00:57:06
them for not finding that particular case because we're not talking about 10 cases we're not talking about 100 cases
00:57:12
we're talking about thousands of cases so it'd be difficult to research for your article but I say who gives a
00:57:18
[ __ ] because can you can we really prove that a tornado warning has saved a life
00:57:24
one single life we can't there's no it's very difficult to prove that so so what should we get rid of
00:57:32
tornado warnings because we can't prove that it's saved a life no you don't same
00:57:39
with the Amber Alert you don't get rid of it because you can't prove that it brought a child home you can't prove
00:57:45
with an absolute that it saved a child's life that doesn't mean you get rid of it
00:57:50
they weren't saying to get rid of it but I say why even question it this is another tool this is
00:57:59
another it's a warning man it's it's what we have and and I say this to everybody out there that if if you're
00:58:09
like the authors that question the impact of the Amber Alert then I say this to you if your child went missing wouldn't
00:58:21
you want them to do everything in their power that they possibly could to find your child the answer is going to be yes
00:58:28
every single time so this is important this case is important and unfortunately for Amber and for the person's closest
00:58:42
to her and I hope that this case gets solved and solved very very soon I think that there's reason to stay positive
00:58:52
about this case the light is still on there's still a chance that they saw this case from everything I've seen
00:58:58
they're working this case very hard and regardless if it gets solved or doesn't get solved this is a big powerful
00:59:08
impactful case and that's why and because of her mother and because of the efforts of the
00:59:16
people that knew this little girl and knew the family and we're a part of that family that we have this powerful tool
00:59:25
to this day the amber alert and in my opinion it absolutely has saved [Music] lives want to thank everybody for
00:59:47
joining us here in the garage each and every week thanks for telling your friends Colonel do we have any
00:59:53
recommended reading for the beautiful listeners of course Captain we have to be recommending Jeffrey rik's book in
00:59:59
the name of the children and FBI agents Relentless pursuit of the nation's worst
01:00:05
Predators we were lucky enough to have Mr rck on as a guest years ago to talk about some of the cases that he worked
01:00:14
over his career as an FBI agent this is a FBI special agent who had a gift for getting child predators to confess to
01:00:23
their crimes to do that he had to share a piece of his soul and I told you earlier about the emotional toll that
01:00:31
this took on him and how could it not he's a human being this just telling these stories just listening to these
01:00:39
stories does take a bit of a toll on you and all of us but this guy has done some
01:00:45
incredible work the book is one of the best true crime books that I've ever read and he's someone that I would I
01:00:52
would hope someday that his name will be up there with the Roy Hazel woods with the Robert wrestlers the John Douglas's
01:01:00
the Anne Burgesses because he is of that elk he has worked these cases and his experience is something that we can all
01:01:09
learn from and that I think that law enforcement agencies out there around the country could learn a lot from so
01:01:16
make sure you check out if you haven't already because this is not the first time we've recommended Mr reck's book I
01:01:23
believe it's time number three but it is one of of the best true crime books out
01:01:27
there in the name of the children and FBI agents Relentless pursuit of the nation's worst Predators by Jeffrey rck
01:01:34
you can find that great suggestion which is available Kindle audiobook and paperback you can find that suggestion
01:01:41
as well as many other recommendations on our recommended page at true Crim garage.com until next week be good be
01:01:48
kind and don't litter [Music] [Applause] [Music]