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[Applause] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
00:01:07
for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always is a man that all week
00:01:10
he's been calling me the Colonel. Well, he is the captain. >> Well, thanks, Colonel. It's good to be
00:01:16
seen and it's good to see you. Mhm. Smell like chicken. Well, it's shake and bake.
00:01:26
[Music] Tonight we are drinking Mother's Brewing Company's Mil out of Springfield,
00:01:33
Missouri. Milf is a barrelaged imperial stout, 11% ABV. Try some Mother's Brewing Company's Mil Stout today. A big
00:01:42
happy birthday shout out to Saba. Happy birthday. We also want to give a big thanks to Becky in Sandy Springs,
00:01:48
Georgia, and Kristen in Centerville, Georgia. We also have Misty from Lancaster, Ohio, and Ela from Edenberg,
00:01:56
Scotland. And a big we like your jib to Fanny and Sweden. We also have Shawn and
00:02:02
Mike and Hillview, Kentucky. They say our jibs are a cut above the rest. Oh, wip.
00:02:09
And how about Kristen in Hadley, Massachusetts? Kristen says that her jib doesn't drink, but it plays well with
00:02:15
others. >> I don't know if you want to advertise that. >> And last but not least, a big shout out
00:02:23
and thank you to John from Staten Island. John is recommending several beers from the very good people at Yards
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Brewing Company. Thank you for everybody for buying us around for this week's show. And if you want to buy us around
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for next week's show, go to true crimegar.com and click on the donate button. And if you like to follow us on
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social media, Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all that stuff, True Crime Garage. All right, everybody,
00:02:47
punch a clown and grab a chair and grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. Thank you, Colonel.
00:02:55
[Music] This is True Crime Garage and this is the case of John Wayne Gasey. [Music]
00:03:22
The Cook County State Attorney's Office tonight denying reports that there is an
00:03:25
investigation underway to find an accomplice to the murders of those 27 people, their bodies found at the home
00:03:30
of John Gasey. Those reports are being spurred by statements of Jeff Rignol, who says Gayy drugged and sexually
00:03:37
molested him at the Gayy home. Gayy himself scheduled to appear tomorrow in court to face the charges in connection
00:03:43
with the Rignall case, but it's doubtful that he will be in court. The ramifications of the mass murder tonight
00:03:48
continue to spread even to people totally unrelated to Gayy, his house, or those he had dealings with. The sad
00:03:54
effects now reaching into Chicago's community of clowns. For hundreds of people in the Chicago
00:04:01
area who used the grease paint, costumes, and antics of a clown, this picture in the Chicago Tribune came as a
00:04:08
shock. It was a publicity picture John Gayy used in his sometime role as an entertainer of children. Now clown
00:04:16
organizations say their image has been damaged with guilt by association. These are members of the clown guild of
00:04:24
metropolitan Chicago. Better known by such names as Snappy, Happy, Wacko, Ho Ho, and Me Too. Pictures show them in
00:04:32
action doing what they love, making youngsters laugh. Even a tiny smile will make their day. Sometimes they are paid
00:04:39
for their work. Often they perform at no charge for charity. But now the first question people ask is, did they know
00:04:47
and work with John Gayy? We have checked uh the national organization which is clowns of America, the Shriner
00:04:53
organization, a number of the organizations within the Chicago area and after checking with these people, we
00:04:59
found that he is not now nor has ever been a member or associated with any of these organizations within this area.
00:05:06
The public might be wondering how they can avoid a person with questionable character coming out to a party. What
00:05:13
would be some of the ways that you could guarantee um the type of people that you're coming out would be reputable? I
00:05:20
believe the main thing would be to uh if they're going to get a clown is to get an organization such as the Vagabond
00:05:26
Clowns or Clowns Metropolitan Chicago, Nairobi Clown Troop, an organization that has a number of members and that
00:05:33
way they can pick from those members. The Clown Guild wanted their story told not because they fear economic loss, but
00:05:40
because of the apprehension they sense from the public. And tonight, they offer insight into John Gayy by analyzing the
00:05:47
way he put on his clown makeup. They say the lines forming his mouth are not rounded, but pointed, giving a harsh,
00:05:55
mean look. Only a true clown could notice that. [Music] All right. Can't make that up, people. That's real
00:06:12
news. >> Let's start off by telling a story that takes place December 11th, 1978 in Dez
00:06:18
Plains, Illinois at a little place called Nissan's Pharmacy. John Wayne Gasey is there and he's busy writing up
00:06:26
a proposal. He has met with the owner to do some remodeling at the pharmacy. He's
00:06:32
taking measurements and shooting the [ __ ] with the owner. And while he's there, he also talks to a handful of the
00:06:37
employees, most of them being young teenagers. Most of the people he speaks with are young females. Uh after the
00:06:45
appointment, John Gayy goes home. On the way home, he realizes that he forgot his
00:06:50
appointment book at the pharmacy. He had he had another appointment that night, so it was important that he retrieved
00:06:56
that book as soon as possible. >> Mhm. Once he got home, he left his black oldsmobile there. And he hopped in his
00:07:03
pickup truck. This is the one with the snow plow on the front of it. And he drove back to the pharmacy and he was
00:07:09
thinking that maybe it wouldn't be a complete waste of a trip if he somehow picked up a, you know, a plow job while
00:07:15
he was out. You know, keep in mind this is winter in Illinois. >> While he is there, he when he pulls up,
00:07:22
he bumps into a young man. This is 15year-old Robert Pest. Now, Rob had seen John Wayne Gasey at the pharmacy
00:07:30
earlier that day, and he had overheard John talking to some of the pharmacy employees, telling them that he was
00:07:36
looking to hire new help and that he started off his employees at $5 an hour. That's $5 an hour for part-time workers.
00:07:45
Now, Rob Pest at the time, he's 15 years old. He's saving up for that magical day
00:07:50
when he turns 16 years old to buy his first vehicle. He's saving up for a Jeep. and he's worked very hard at the
00:07:57
pharmacy. He's making $2.85 an hour. He's asked his boss for a raise and was turned down for such. So, he was
00:08:05
interested in talking to Mr. Gayy about that position. >> Yeah. This doubles his wage.
00:08:10
>> So, as he's outside taking out the trash, now mind you, it's very cold out there. He sees the contractor pull up in
00:08:16
the in the pickup truck. >> He goes up to the window and he says, "Hi, Mr. Gayy. My name is Rob Pest. I've
00:08:22
worked at the pharmacy for quite some time and I heard you're looking to take on some new help. Well, Gayy says,
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"Well, I was I was watching you work and you're a pretty busy hard worker. I like
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that. You know, while I was there taking my measurements and talking with the with the owner that that's the time when
00:08:40
most of the people would kind of screw around and, you know, they're not under the watchful eye of the owner. So, I
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noticed the whole time you kept you stayed busy and you kept working. So, yes, I would like to talk to you about
00:08:52
working for my company. Rob tells Gayy that he should probably get back inside, that he didn't want the owner catching
00:08:59
him while on the clock talking to the contractor about a new job. So, he goes back inside, but before so, Gayy says,
00:09:07
"You know what? How about I wait for you and we can talk after you're done working, and I also have to go inside
00:09:14
and collect my appointment book and take some more measurements anyway." So Gayy
00:09:18
goes back in, says hi to the owner, collects his appointment book. He, you know, messes around for a little bit
00:09:25
inside the store, and then he leaves the pharmacy, and he sits in his truck waiting for Rob Pest. Well, Rob Pest
00:09:32
comes out at the end of his shift. He's talking to Gayy. He says he's very much interested in a position. Um, he
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couldn't talk much more about it that night because it was his mother's birthday. His mother was inside the
00:09:43
pharmacy waiting to take Rob home. Well, Gasey says, "You know what? We should probably hash this out tonight. I can't
00:09:50
wait around to to hire the right person. So, how about we talk about the job and
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I'll drive you home afterwards." Well, Rob agrees to this. And inside Gayy's truck, John Wayne Gasey explains to the
00:10:05
boy that before we can hire you, you know, we have to fill out some paperwork. We have to fill out the
00:10:11
appropriate tax forms. These these forms are at my home, which it's it's only about 20 minutes away,
00:10:17
>> right? >> And I could drive you home after. I'll have you home in about 45 minutes.
00:10:21
>> No thanks. >> Rob accepts uh the offer. He's hopeful to get the new job. >> Mhm.
00:10:27
>> And now they're back at John Wayne Gasey's home. Now, at this point, Gayy is going to try to welcome the boy into
00:10:34
his home. And we know Gayy's attitude. By this point, he's probably talking a lot about himself, telling Rob how
00:10:41
important he is, telling Rob that he's a registered clown. >> Sounds like somebody else I know.
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>> Yeah. And then he offers the kid a beer, telling him that here at PDM, you will
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learn that you don't just work hard, but we play hard, too. >> And I can't just hire anyone. I got to
00:11:00
make sure that you are a good fit. Now, young Rob is eager to get home, but he decides that he's willing to play along
00:11:07
and hang out with his potential future boss and maybe even sit and enjoy a beer with him.
00:11:14
>> Mhm. >> Now, Gayy would walk off and he would go into the other room to collect the
00:11:18
necessary paperwork. Now, when he returned, he had the paperwork with him, but he also had a pair of handcuffs.
00:11:25
>> All right, the famous handcuffs. And in a singongy tone, he would say, "I've got
00:11:31
a trick I want to show you." >> A trick I want to show you. John waved the cuffs in front of Rob's face,
00:11:39
showing him that the cuffs are very much real. John then placed the cuff around his left wrist. And with a couple of
00:11:46
clicks, the cuff was secure around his wrist. And then John placed the open cuff around his right wrist. And click,
00:11:54
click, click. Now both cuffs are secure around Gayy's thick wrist in front of his big beer belly.
00:12:02
He pulled the cuffs apart and the chains tightened. Again, he did it, demonstrating that the cuffs are very
00:12:08
real. Then Gayy lifted up both arms and he quickly turned around and almost instantly he turned back around again
00:12:15
facing young Rob, he asked. But now the cuffs were off. He had performed a real magic trick. Rob says, "How the heck did
00:12:24
you do that?" Gasey says, "I can show you, but first, check this out." Gasey hands the handcuffs to Rob. Check them
00:12:32
out. They're real. Rob checks them out, looking for a trick button or some kind of release, but these are real
00:12:40
handcuffs. Rob agrees. These are real handcuffs. Okay. Gayy says, "I'm going to turn around and I want you to put the
00:12:46
cuffs on my wrist behind my back." Rob put the cuffs on Gayy's wrist. Gay spins around again, facing Rob again,
00:12:55
and Gasey's out of the cuffs. "Wow," Rob thought. He's half surprised at the trick, but he's also probably playing
00:13:03
along with this weirdo because he really wanted to get this good job. >> Mhm. >> All right, Gasey says, "You want to know
00:13:09
the trick? The trick is you have to have the key." >> Well, no [ __ ] >> And he says this as if he's pulling the
00:13:18
key out of thin air. Gasey holds out his hand and in it is a small handcuff key.
00:13:24
Look here. I'll show you how to hide the key between your fingers so that no one
00:13:28
can see it. And I'll show you how to slip out of the cuffs very quickly. Let's start off by putting these cuffs
00:13:34
on you. >> Yeah, how about we don't. >> Gayy secured each of the cuffs to the boy's thin wrist.
00:13:40
>> [ __ ] >> John with his thick fingers starts to hand Rob the key and then he quickly
00:13:45
pulls his hand back away from Rob. Stop playing around, John. Give me the key. Rob watched in amazement, and it
00:13:53
appeared as if Gasey's face was transforming. His eyes fluttered and his pupils expanded and became dark. It was
00:14:00
as if Rob was looking at a totally different person. >> Mhm. >> Rob heard Gasey's phone ring. Rob looked
00:14:06
down as he struggled with his arms, trying to get the cuffs to budge, but they wouldn't. And then he hears Gasey's
00:14:13
voice. Well, we better get you home. Let's get you out of those cuffs. I was just playing around. Rob looked up and
00:14:20
there was the old John Gayy again, his big round face smiling. Gayy took the key and he put it in the cuffs and
00:14:28
unlatched them. Rob tells Gayy, "You scared me. That's some trick." The two agreed to collect their things and go,
00:14:36
returning to Rob's home. But before they could walk out the front door, Gasey said, "You know, let me show you one
00:14:42
more thing. You're going to love this." Gasey had a three-foot piece of rope in one hand, and he picked up a wooden
00:14:49
hammer handle with the other hand. "It's just a wooden handle, though. There's no
00:14:54
hammerhead on it." He very quickly tied a series of knots, and he slid the wooden handle through a couple of them.
00:15:00
"Check this out," Gasey said with excitement, and he placed his contraption over the boy's head and
00:15:05
around his neck. Rob asked, "What kind of trick is this?" Gasey twists the handle a few times, and Rob's face
00:15:12
instantly turns beat red. Rob is choking and the handle is wedged firmly against
00:15:17
his back. >> Right. >> Gasey jumps back and away from the boy. Rob falls to the floor and with one hand
00:15:23
he's trying to get his fingers under the rope around his neck and the other hand
00:15:27
is twisted up behind his back as he stretches, reaching trying to grab the wooden handle. Gasey laughed and jumped
00:15:34
about the room as he watched the boy squirm. The more Rob moved, the more he jerked, the tighter the rope got. Rob
00:15:43
would not survive this trick. Gayy's phone rang again. The first time it rang, he had let the machine get it.
00:15:50
This time, Gayy answered. It was Gasey's relative requesting that he go to the hospital because Gasey's elderly uncle's
00:15:56
health had taken a bad turn and he was dying. Gay said he would be there in about an hour. He hung up the phone and
00:16:04
he carried Rob's lifeless body into his bedroom. He stripped the boy and he folded the clothes and placed them in a
00:16:11
bag. He stuffed one or two pieces of clothlike material into Rob's mouth so fluids would not leak out. He went back
00:16:20
out into the main room. He looked around the room and he saw the two beer bottles. He emptied them and he threw
00:16:27
them in the trash. He grabbed Rob's parka, checked the pockets, and found a receipt for film from the pharmacy where
00:16:34
he had picked up Rob. Gasey threw the receipt in the trash and folded up the parka and placed it in the bag with the
00:16:41
clothes. He took a shower, got dressed, and drove to the hospital. And on the way, he threw the bag with Rob's clothes
00:16:48
in it in a Salvation Army clothing dropbox. That night at 11 p.m., Harold Pest with his wife and two children went
00:16:57
to the Dez Plains Police Department and filed the following missing person's report. Robert Jerome Piest, male,
00:17:05
Caucasian, age 15, slender to medium build, brown hair, brown eyes, tan Levis's t-shirt, brown pants, brown
00:17:14
suede shoes, tan parka, last seen in the area, Nissan's pharmacy. >> Well, just a little PSA, right?
00:17:22
>> Mhm. >> If if some uh sloppy guy, right, >> is telling you, "Hey, I got I want to
00:17:27
show you a little trick with some handcuffs, right?" >> Mhm. You say, "Well, first let me show
00:17:32
you a kick. Let me let me show you a crane kick to the grundle." >> Yes, OB. That's what you do.
00:17:40
>> The thing here that I found interesting was that Harold Pest with his wife and
00:17:46
the two children, they went to the police department and filed the missing person's report.
00:17:51
>> Happy happy birthday to your mother. >> But we're talking about 1978. You know,
00:17:55
we've covered lots of cases where we have missing boys in the late 70s, early 80s and they don't really take these
00:18:02
reports very seriously when you call them in because a lot of times these police go to the effort to go out and
00:18:08
look for this person and then they find out that the kid was just out on his own
00:18:12
doing whatever he wanted to do. He was just running late or, you know, decided he was going to take off for a long.
00:18:17
>> But this this one's a little weird because he's leaving work and his mom was at his work
00:18:22
>> and he just never made it home. And I like that they went in there with the whole family, you know, and they're
00:18:27
telling the officer, "No, this kid is missing." You know, Harold explains that the kid has been gone for hours. It's
00:18:33
his wife's birthday. They were celebrating. Rob wouldn't have missed that. And he had even called the
00:18:38
pharmacy to see if Rob would be there. He was not. He spoke to the owner and the owner said, you know, that that it
00:18:45
is possible that Rob might have talked to a contractor or something like that about a job he had heard from the other
00:18:51
kids. Well, he got the phone number for the contractor and Harold had called to ask the contractor about Rob. Well, he
00:18:59
ends up getting the answering machine. Harold left a message on John Wayne Gasey's answering machine very likely
00:19:06
right around the same time that Gasey was attacking the boy. >> But we've all been there. You know what
00:19:11
I mean? >> We We've all been there. No, I mean, we've been all been in Rob's shoes on
00:19:17
the idea that, you know, let's say you're talking to somebody about a job. >> Oh, well, we'll just sit down and have a
00:19:25
chat. And then you realize the conversation is not going to be about the job. >> Yeah.
00:19:29
>> It's going to be And then you just sit there like, "Okay, what the hell am I still doing here? Just
00:19:34
>> please let me leave. This is >> Is this guy looking for a friend or to hire me?"
00:19:39
>> Right. Yeah. I think I also think when you're about that age, you know, the the
00:19:45
14 to 16 17 year old boy age >> Mhm. >> I think you know the you definitely get the creep factor by certain guys.
00:19:56
>> You do. You do. Um but I also think that when you see at that age when you see a
00:20:01
successful adult, you have this opinion of them without even knowing them that they're some kind of upstanding person.
00:20:07
Um the next morning the police call John Wayne Gasey's home. They speak with him
00:20:12
because he's at home hosting a meeting amongst other businessmen that he's, you know, working out some jobs or details
00:20:19
of an upcoming job. >> And Gayy basically says, you know, I don't Yeah, I was at the pharmacy. I was
00:20:26
there for a job. Um I didn't remember talking to any boys. Um I talked to some of the teenage girls that were there. I
00:20:34
might have maybe a boy asked me about some shelving in the back or something like that. He goes, you know, he he
00:20:39
comes off like he's trying to be helpful, but he's not providing any information. He's not seen the boy that
00:20:44
they're talking about. >> Well, that that evening, uh, Gayy takes the body of Rob Pest. He loads it into
00:20:52
his 79 Oldsmobile Delta 88 and he drives it to I to the I-55 bridge over top of the Dez Plains River.
00:21:01
>> Okay. And Gayy gets out of the vehicle. He opens up the trunk. He hoists the boy's body up into his arms and he
00:21:08
tossed the body into the river. >> The the plus size model was good at shot foot.
00:21:13
>> Well, after the officer learns the name of the contractor, he decides that there's some kind of evidence. There's
00:21:20
enough evidence after talking to people at the pharmacy that there's a good chance that this John Wayne Gayy
00:21:25
character probably talked to the boy and for whatever reason he's not, you know,
00:21:29
admitting to that, telling us the truth >> or he doesn't remember doing so. So, he
00:21:34
decides to run a background check on Gayy the next day. >> Oh, imagine that. >> Yeah. And he was surprised to find that
00:21:41
Gayy had served time for committing sodomy on a teenager years earlier. Soon after the discovery, well, the officer
00:21:49
worked very hard to obtain a search warrant for John Gasey's house. It was there that he believed that he would
00:21:55
find Robert PS. >> So, once they get the search warrant, they're going to search
00:22:01
the Pogo's Pogo the clown's house. >> Pogo's Playhouse. >> Oh, god. >> Um, yeah. So, Gayy was not home at the
00:22:09
time of the search. And so, they conducted their investigation. They went into the home and they're looking for
00:22:16
items to point to whether Rob Pest was at the home or if he's still there. Now, they don't find Rob Pest there. Some of
00:22:24
the items that they found that were confiscated from Gasey's home were the following. A jewelry box containing two
00:22:31
driver's license. >> Uh neither of them Gasey's. They also found a couple of rings. Um one of them
00:22:37
it include an engravement on it. And this was from the Maine West High School class of 1975 with the initials JS on
00:22:46
it. They found a box containing marijuana and rolling papers, seven pornographic movies,
00:22:52
>> marijuana, >> pills including volume, a switchblade knife, a stained section of rug,
00:22:59
>> color photographs ofarmacies and drugstores, an address book, a scale, books about by and gay lifestyles, a
00:23:09
pair of handcuffs with keys, >> a nylon rope, a 3-ft long wooden handle with two holes drilled in, each end of
00:23:17
it. A small starter pistol with with uh gun caps, basically like like blanks. Uh
00:23:24
they also found police badges, some sex toys, a hypodermic syringe, and an unlabeled small brown bottle. They found
00:23:33
clothing that was way too small for John Wayne Gayy. And they found a receipt for
00:23:38
a roll of film with a serial number on it. And this was from Nissan's pharmacy. Three automobiles belonging to Gayy were
00:23:46
also confiscated. >> Jesus, guy's a baller. >> Including the pickup truck that we
00:23:51
discussed earlier. It's >> that plus-size model money. >> As well as his 79 Oldsmobile and a van
00:23:57
with PDM contractors on its side. Now, within the trunk of the car, they found some pieces of hair.
00:24:04
>> Uhhuh. >> I'd like to talk about the receipt that was found, right? right? You know,
00:24:10
there's >> so we should assume that that was the receipt of the boys. >> Well, that's that's what their thought
00:24:16
is. So, their the police their thought is, you know, this comes from Nissan's pharmacy.
00:24:21
>> This is where uh the boy was. However, Gayy was there, too. So, we can't prove
00:24:26
that this receipt belonged to the boy. You know, Gasey could have bought film at some point at the pharmacy. So what
00:24:33
they do is they take the receipt and they go back to the pharmacy and they start discussing this receipt with a
00:24:38
bunch of the employees. Well, they talk with one employee and her name is Kim Buyers. She's a cashier there. She's a
00:24:45
teenage girl. Well, Rob Pest was was a pretty popular kid. I mean, he was very wellliked by everyone. He was
00:24:52
good-looking kid. Uh I think he, you know, he was he was a kid that the the the girls kind of chased at high school
00:24:58
a little bit. >> Sounds a little bit like the Colonel. Nothing like the curdle. Anyway, they're
00:25:05
talking to these different employees and this Kim buyer says, "You know what? That night was a particularly cold night
00:25:11
and the door here I'm, you know, the cashier is up by the door usually." >> And every time the door would open, all
00:25:18
that cold air would rush in. So Rob being a nice guy, he offers to let her borrow his parka, his jacket.
00:25:26
>> That's a gentleman. >> Yeah. He says, "That's a gentleman. That's how it's done." Instead of
00:25:30
standing up here and shivering your butt off, you know, here, wear this parka and
00:25:33
you'll be warm for the evening. >> Let me keep your butt warm is what he said. >> Well, Kim Buyers, she had a bit of a
00:25:39
crush on Rob. So, she had purchased some film from Nissan's pharmacy, and she purposely put the receipt in the jacket
00:25:48
pocket because she thought, you know what, he'll find the receipt. He'll know that I left it in there by quote unquote
00:25:54
mistake, and he'll he'll come and Yeah. He'll come and talk to me >> and maybe >> that's a smart move.
00:26:00
>> And maybe he'll ask me about the film. Maybe he'll ask me, you know, what what
00:26:03
am I am I into photography or whatever. >> And so it's >> do you want me to take your picture?
00:26:08
>> It's there that the police learn that there is no way that that receipt could
00:26:14
have ended up in Gayy's home unless Rob Pest and his parka were at Gasey's home at some point that evening, which this
00:26:21
is going to give him probable cause to do another search, maybe a more in-depth search. And also, so let's get to that
00:26:27
and let's get to the surveillance of John Wayne Gasey right after this quick beer break.
00:26:46
All right, we're back. Big cheers to Dom over in England driving the bus. Cheers
00:26:52
to you, mate. John Wayne Gasey was called into the police department and he was told of the articles that they had
00:26:59
confiscated. Now Gasey was enraged and he immediately contacted his lawyer. The police basically had nothing to arrest
00:27:07
him on and they eventually had to release him after some more questioning about the PS boy's disappearance. Gayy
00:27:14
was put under 24-hour surveillance. And if anybody knows anything about this 24-hour surveillance that John Wayne
00:27:22
Gasey was on, >> uh, it's it's I hate to make light of a of a terrible situation, but it's the
00:27:30
stuff that it's a comedy to me, right, Captain? I mean, >> I don't know what you're talking about.
00:27:36
>> Gayy would he would he would purposely, you know, drive fast so he could lose
00:27:41
them. He knew he knew he was under surveillance. M >> um he would he would lose them. And uh
00:27:47
there were other times where he would tell them, you know, I know you guys are having trouble keeping up with me. So if
00:27:52
if you if you can't keep up, I'll be at this place in a half an hour. Just meet me there. And then he would drive off
00:27:59
and lose them. And sure enough, he would be where he said he was going to be a half an hour later. One of the times
00:28:04
that he lost that he lost him, uh, they called the the airport because they were
00:28:11
worried that Gasey would fly out of the country and leave this situation that's going on. Because by this point, you
00:28:18
know, they're convinced that they're going to find the PS boy either at his home somewhere or that he had done
00:28:25
something with the boy. Now, they they call the airport and put his name on some kind of list. And it turns out they
00:28:33
find him. He's two blocks away from his house. He's he's looking at Christmas trees at at a lot somewhere, right?
00:28:39
>> You know, and there was one situation. >> What's happening? >> One situation, the the police car breaks
00:28:45
down and these are unmarked police cars. >> But the police car breaks down and Gayy
00:28:51
stops his vehicle. He gets out and he goes up to the officers and he says, you know, what's the problem with the car?
00:28:57
Said the car broke down. He said, "Okay, well, uh, since, you know, why don't I just give you guys a a lift? You can
00:29:02
ride with me u for the remainder of the day until you get a new car." >> Right. What's fascinating to me is you're under
00:29:12
surveillance, uh, for this missing teenage boy, and the cops at this point are probably assuming that this teenage
00:29:19
boy is dead. >> Mhm. >> And And you're just going about your business, you know, just buying
00:29:25
Christmas trees. >> Yeah. Nothing's happening. >> Yeah. And the other thing that's going
00:29:30
on here, remember we talked about that one ring that was found in Gayy's home. And they end up believing it had the
00:29:38
initials JAS on it. They believe that the the ring could have belonged to a guy by the name of John Sik. This is
00:29:45
somebody we talked about yesterday. Um the situation here is they also discovered that three former employees
00:29:52
of Gasey's have also mysteriously disappeared. Now, the problem with this situation is these cases were reported
00:30:01
in Chicago. They weren't reported to the Dez Plains Police Department. Remember,
00:30:06
the Pest family went to the Dez Plains Police Department to to let them know that Rob was missing,
00:30:12
>> right? >> And it wasn't until then that a Dez Pelain's police officer ran a background
00:30:18
check. >> Say that three times fast. >> Yeah, I couldn't I couldn't say it once.
00:30:22
um they run the background check and they see that Gayy, you know, he has this sodomy charge.
00:30:27
>> Had the Chicago police ran his background check with these other missing people and some of these cases
00:30:34
they were, it was believed the last person who had seen them was Gayy. U we might have been able to cut this list a
00:30:41
little shorter. So, they don't have the evidence, but now they think that Gayy could be responsible for the murder of
00:30:48
anywhere between one to four persons. The thing here is after they searched his home, they called in some of his
00:30:57
friends. Now, these were I say friends, but they're also people that worked for John Wayne Gasey.
00:31:03
>> And two of the people that they talked to, and we mentioned these names yesterday, is David Cra and Mike Rossi.
00:31:10
Um, remember we had the discussion, we wondered if they were the same person, just using different names. You know,
00:31:15
sometimes when they tell these stories, they make up fake names to >> uh for potential victims to to hide
00:31:21
their ident, >> but the jury's out and they are >> they're different people. >> All right.
00:31:25
>> And the reason why the reason why I got confused was they had similar stories.
00:31:29
They both worked for John Wayne Gasey. Uh they both told police that at one time or another they had done projects
00:31:37
for Gayy at his home. And this included digging trenches in the crawl space as well as lifting up floorboards and
00:31:45
digging trenches under there. Uh they had also >> I'm glad the colonel figured it all out.
00:31:49
>> They had also poured concrete for him. Um remember Michael Rossi was the boy that was driving the missing guy's
00:31:57
vehicle, >> right? Um, and David Cra, now David Cra, he was with John Wayne Gasey the night
00:32:04
that Gayy returned to his home after the first search was conducted and he walked
00:32:10
roomto room with John Wayne Gasey as he inspected the things that the the police
00:32:15
may have taken and what they looked through. >> Right. And during this interrogation
00:32:20
process with the police, David Cra tells them that Gayy the first place he went to in the home after you guys searched
00:32:27
it was the crawl space where I had dug those trenches before. >> Right. So at some point we need to check
00:32:33
that crawl space. >> Yeah, that's exactly what the police want to do. They want to get in that
00:32:37
crawl space. They they didn't dig around in there the first time. Now, the police
00:32:42
also make a lot of statements about saying like you were saying, he John Wayne Gayy's giving us rides. You know,
00:32:48
our car is breaking down and he would just kind of stop by and talk to us and I think even took him out to dinner and
00:32:55
and and a few odd things like that. And the police had to keep reminding themselves like, yeah, this guy's a very
00:33:02
charming guy and he seems like on the surface just completely innocent, but there's all these there's all this
00:33:10
evidence leading to the fact that he's not. >> Mhm. >> So, they had to keep reminding
00:33:14
themselves, we're police officers, you know, we have to keep doing our job. >> Yeah. And the police now, they're
00:33:20
becoming frustrated because this surveillance that they're conducting, they're kind of looking like like fools
00:33:25
in this whole situation because it it's like I said, it's comical. Um, so >> we'll talk about the fish dinner, right?
00:33:32
So, do you know much about this? >> I I know just a little bit about it. You're talking about when he invites the
00:33:38
the guys, the officers that are surveilling him, >> right? There's Right. >> They're out front of his house.
00:33:44
>> Yeah. And he's at this point he he knows he's under surveillance. He's already
00:33:47
talked to the cops multiple times, but he cooks them a fish dinner. >> Mhm. >> Right. So, they're like, "Okay, well,
00:33:53
we'll go in the house." Now, this is after they searched already, >> right? >> But as they're eating the fish dinner,
00:33:59
because, you know, the fish has, you know, >> an odor, >> a odor, I think, because there was a a
00:34:06
secondary odor. >> Mhm. >> It really drew their attention to the odor in the house.
00:34:13
>> Yeah. And and as they're eating this fish dinner, they're going, "Something stinks in here."
00:34:20
>> Yeah. >> And it's not the fish. >> Yeah. And I think one of the officers said that it wasn't something that they
00:34:26
outwardly noticed immediately, but it was one of those situations where as the longer they sat in the home, every time
00:34:33
the furnace would kick on and start blowing that hot air around that they would notice this this foul stench.
00:34:40
>> Yeah. This funk. So the police they are frustrated due to the lack of evidence
00:34:45
uh that they've collected regarding the disappearance of Robert Pest. >> Uh they decide to arrest Gayy on
00:34:52
possession of marijuana and Valium. Uh during this time during this arrest now Gayy is awaiting action on some other
00:35:01
charges. Remember yesterday we talked about Jeff Ringnol. Now, this guy, he is the one that was abducted by Gayy and he
00:35:10
went and he he went to the area that he was taken from and he was looking for the vehicle that that he had gotten
00:35:15
into, >> right? >> And he found the vehicle and he wrote down the license plate. Well, he took
00:35:20
that plate to the the police and once he got their John Wayne Gasey's name from them, he filed sexual assault charges
00:35:28
against him. >> Good for him. So, at this time, unbeknownst to the investigators, we
00:35:34
have this this other charge, this sexual assault charge, >> right? So, they they have him in custody
00:35:40
>> and they're going to keep doing more searches, but then what comes from that?
00:35:44
>> Well, they they're also interrogating Gayy at this point, and he's already lawyered up.
00:35:49
>> What the cops don't know is that Gayy has already confessed to his attorneys.
00:35:55
>> Okay. Well, the attorneys think that he's suicidal because during these confessions, he's telling his attorneys,
00:36:01
you know, for many years, I've been the judge, jury, and executioner of many, >> and I'm going to be the judge, jury, and
00:36:11
executioner of myself. >> Okay? >> So, the attorneys believe him to be suicidal, and they want to put him in
00:36:17
the hospital. This ends up leading to more police interrogations with Mr. Gayy. During these interrogations, Gayy
00:36:26
starts confessing to murder. He does state that he had killed someone, but it had in fact been in self-defense,
00:36:34
>> of course, >> and that he had buried the body underneath the the garage. Well, they've
00:36:40
not started digging yet. Uh but this guy still wants to talk >> and he starts telling them, you know,
00:36:48
>> this is something that's happened more than once. Um, I've I've And they start
00:36:53
really digging on him now because he he they suspect him of as many as four. That's all they were expecting to hear
00:37:00
about was four. And at some point, >> homie, that's a lot. >> He starts saying, well, he starts saying
00:37:06
it's probably more like 30 people. >> Jesus. >> Uh, and he states that he buried most of
00:37:12
the remains in the victim of the victims beneath the crawl space of his home. Uh,
00:37:17
I want to take you through these confessions here a little bit. Okay. All right.
00:37:20
>> Um, the first confession, it takes place, he says that this took place in uh 71 or 72.
00:37:27
>> Well, it's a little strange though that you showed up to the garage today, full
00:37:31
clown makeup. >> That's my normal get up nowadays. >> Um, he he says that this murder took
00:37:38
place in 71 or 72. I believe it was in in the month of January. He said that he picked up a boy at a bus station and
00:37:46
they decided to drive around, smoke some pot. they were going to go back to his place, eat some food, you know, have
00:37:52
lots of drinks, and >> he had he had a couple magic tricks to show him >> and and just party. And he said that
00:37:58
they then engaged in consensual sex. He says that he woke up the next morning to find the boy, the young man, standing
00:38:08
in the doorway of his bedroom holding a knife that the guy had taken from Gasey's kitchen.
00:38:14
>> Mhm. He says that the guy tries to attack Gayy and Gayy defending himself gets the knife from the guy and he
00:38:22
stabbed him several times killing the guy. >> This is the guy that he buried in the
00:38:28
garage. It was a boy. >> Okay. >> The other situation is he starts talking about um remember we had uh Bukovich his
00:38:39
his employee >> old Bkovich. Well, remember they had the dispute about the money.
00:38:45
>> Um, he tells a story that he decides to when when Buckovich and his buddies come
00:38:51
over to try to collect the money. >> That he said, "You know what? I'll pay you as soon as I can." Uh, we ain't got
00:38:58
nothing to do. Why don't we, you know, drink some booze, some beers, hang out and party? He said they partied all
00:39:04
night long. And he's not sure what happened, but when he woke up the next morning, there was a dead boy. YOLO with
00:39:11
pogo >> on his floor. >> Um, so he had to get rid of it. >> This is Yeah. Odd stories from John Wayne Gayy.
00:39:24
Yeah. So, those are his stories about why they might find some dead bodies in his home. On the first day that the
00:39:31
police begin their digging, they find two bodies. One of the bodies is that of John Buckovich, uh, who was buried
00:39:38
underneath the garage. I believe in this situation, Ga Gay even like put an X on
00:39:44
the floor and said, you know, dig here, >> right? >> Um, he was going to kind of lead them to
00:39:50
some of the bodies. The other body that they found was in the crawl space. As the days passed, the body count grew
00:39:56
higher. Some of the victims were found in with their underwear still stuffed lodged deep in their throats. Other
00:40:04
victims were buried so close together that the police believed that they were probably killed or buried at the same
00:40:10
time. The police had removed a total of 27 bodies from Gasey's home. >> Jesus. >> They also started finding bodies in the
00:40:18
Dez Plains River. Four in total. One of the bodies found in the river. Well, they could easily link that body to
00:40:25
Gasey because that man's identification was one of the IDs found in Gayy's home.
00:40:31
>> Right. Right. Right. One of the victims found in the river was unidentified, but
00:40:35
he had Tim Lee tattooed on one of his arms. A friend of the victim's father had recognized the Tim Lee tattoo while
00:40:45
reading a newspaper story about the discovery of the body in the river. >> The victim's name was Timothy Aor. Now,
00:40:54
uh, he was such a fan of Bruce Lee that he took Lee's last name and he added it to his first name to make the tattoo on
00:41:03
his arm. >> So, it was just a really bad idea for a tattoo, but glad that they identified him.
00:41:11
>> Soon after the discovery of all of these bodies, the house was destroyed. Um, it
00:41:16
was basically reduced to rubble. Um, unfortunately among the 32 bodies that were discovered, that of Robert PS was
00:41:23
still unaccounted for. Pest was still missing. Finally, in April of 1970, the remains of Robert Pest were discovered
00:41:31
in the Illinois River. His body had been lodged somewhere along the river, making
00:41:36
it difficult to find this body. And at some point, it must have become dislodged and carried the corpse to the
00:41:43
Dresden Dam, where it was eventually discovered. >> Go with me on this theory, though.
00:41:47
Right. So, the first guy he talks about, we already know about the guy that he picked up in Chicago, right? The one
00:41:54
that he he he raped. >> The guy that got away. >> The guy that got away. >> Now, think about Gayy's first story.
00:42:02
There's some things that make sense here. Yeah. You You picked up a a boy. You sexually assaulted him. You raped
00:42:10
him. >> Mhm. >> He wasn't dead. And when that boy comes too, that boy grabbed a knife and decided he's going
00:42:19
to kill the bastard that did this to him. >> I see. I see what you're saying. There's
00:42:23
there might be some truth to what went down. And actually, one of the bodies that was found uh in his home, they
00:42:31
believe that. Now, keep in mind, a lot of these people were very decomposed by the time they find them. But this person
00:42:36
had uh evidence of having been stabbed to death. you know, where you have the the markings on the ribs uh from the
00:42:43
from the knife. >> Yeah. So, I mean, maybe there's some validity there. I would suspect myself
00:42:50
that John Wayne Gasey probably killed in Iowa. >> Um it's it's possible. Um the other
00:42:56
thing here too is when Gayy was confessing, he said that, you know, I killed about 30 people. He he estimated
00:43:04
that there might be about 30 people in his home that they would find. and he said that I threw the last five bodies
00:43:10
in the river. Well, they only ever recovered >> four >> four bodies. Um, you know, and then we
00:43:16
know how many they found at his home, but there still could be that missing victim out there from when he was in
00:43:21
Chicago. >> Police have a lot of bodies to work with here, and they're going to start using
00:43:26
dental records and other clues to help identify the victims who were found on Gayy's property. All but nine of the
00:43:34
victims were finally identified. >> Oh, that's still a lot of people. Yeah. And even though their searches had
00:43:40
ended, we have a trial to deal with regarding John Wayne Gasey. In February of 1980, Gasey's murder trial began in
00:43:48
Cook County, Illinois. Jury members consisted of five women and seven men. Uh there was a change of venue requested
00:43:57
and what ended up happening was they did not grant the change of venue. Instead,
00:44:02
the judge decided that he would select jurors from another city and have them bust in.
00:44:08
>> Very odd. It's just like Casey Anthony. >> Yeah, that that was one of the weird
00:44:12
coincidences that we came across. And he chose the the city of Rockford, which another coincidence, was 90 miles away,
00:44:20
almost the exact same distance as chosen in the Casey Anthony case. Mhm. >> Um the defense is going to say that John
00:44:28
Wayne Gasey is not guilty by reason of insanity. Uh three psychiatric experts appearing for the defense at Gayy's
00:44:36
trial testified that they found Gayy to be a paranoid schizophrenic with multiple personality disorder.
00:44:43
>> Now, I want to talk about this for a little bit because during some of his confessions, Gayy kept bringing up
00:44:48
another name and this name was Jack Hanley. He said that Jack Hanley had committed some of the murders and he
00:44:56
even gave a full personality profile of Mr. Jack Hanley >> now. But it was very clear to the people
00:45:02
that he was talking with that Gayy was talking about himself. He was >> Jack Hanley is himself.
00:45:08
>> Jack Hanley is another version of John Wayne Gasey. >> Mhm. During the opening statements, uh
00:45:15
they presented evidence uh by the prosecution that left a stunning impression on the jurors and the
00:45:20
courtroom spectators. Many of them saying that they had learned some of the details of Gasey's killings for the very
00:45:27
first time. Uh Gasey's defense lawyers stated that Gasey's actions were irrational and impulsive and that he was
00:45:34
insane and no longer in control of his conduct. The prosecution brought its first witness to the stand. This is
00:45:41
Marco Buckovich, uh the father of John Buckovich. >> Mhm. >> He was the first witness of many that
00:45:48
included the family and friends of the murdered victims. Some of the eyewitnesses broke down into tears on
00:45:54
the bench. Following the friends and family of the victims came the testimony of those who worked for Gayy who
00:46:01
survived strange sexual encounters with him uh with their boss. Some of his ex- employees told of his mood swings and
00:46:09
how he would trick them into being handcuffed. Others told how he constantly made passes at them while he
00:46:16
was at work. >> And in typical fashion, the prosecution is going to come out and say, "Well, we
00:46:21
found him to be sane." >> Yes. His their experts say that John Wayne Gasey is a sane man. Um very much
00:46:29
to the surprise of everyone in the courtroom when the defense started their case. The first witness that they called
00:46:35
was Jeff Rignol. Remember, this was the person that was abducted by John Wayne Gasey, right?
00:46:41
>> Um it was expected that he would have been called to testify on behalf of the
00:46:45
prosecution. However, uh Rnall had previously mentioned his encounter with Gayy in a book and the prosecution
00:46:53
believed that it would damage their case if they took him on as a witness. So, they didn't call him. Gasey's defense
00:46:59
asked Rignol while on the stand if he thought that Gasey was able to control himself. And Jeff did not believe so,
00:47:07
considering the savagy savagery of Gasey's attack. >> Right. Right. Right. Test.
00:47:12
>> But you know, John Wayne Gasey talks about this later in life too that if you're going to say that somebody like
00:47:21
for somebody to do what he did, if you're going to try to say that that's sane >> Mhm. then you don't want to be on the
00:47:28
same side of the fence as as that person. >> Yeah. >> And and I and I think there's some
00:47:33
validity to that. I mean, if you're capable of murdering this many people and burying them in your crawl space,
00:47:40
you're crazy, right? >> You know what I mean? So, but the the problem with our our our system is that
00:47:48
we we make that lenient if the person was insane. >> Mhm. >> And it should not be. It should be, "No,
00:47:55
we we do think you're crazy, but you know, you're going away forever." >> Well, and what the prosecution was
00:48:00
trying to do was they were trying to point out the clear difference to the jury between the difference of being
00:48:06
abnormal and and insane. You know, they're saying Gayy is not your normal dude. Uh but he's not he's not legally
00:48:15
insane. We must hold him accountable for his actions. Um now Jeff Ricknall he did
00:48:20
not test his testimony did not last very long because while on the stand he broke
00:48:26
down while telling the court the details of his rape. Uh Rnall was so stressed out that he began to vomit and cry
00:48:33
hysterically and he was eventually removed from the courtroom. Now in an effort to prove Gasey's insanity,
00:48:40
friends and family of Gasey's were called to the stand. Gayy's mother told how her husband abused Gasey on several
00:48:47
occasions. At one time whipping him with a leather strap. >> Yeah. Well, that's the razor the razor
00:48:52
belt we talked about. >> Mhm. And Gayy's sisters told a similar story of how she repeatedly witnessed
00:49:00
her brother being verbally abused by their father. >> Yeah. But that's that's no excuse. You
00:49:05
know, you become 18 years old, you're you're responsible for your actions. Well, after the court proceedings were
00:49:11
over, uh, it only took two hours of deliberation for the jury to come back with its verdict. They found John Wayne.
00:49:20
>> Well, that's after one hour of eating and 1 hour of a coffee break. >> They found John Wayne Gayy guilty. Gasey
00:49:28
was found guilty in the deaths of 33 young men. And as one of the people in the court stated that he had the
00:49:35
singular notoriety of having been convicted of more murders than anyone else in American history and Gayy
00:49:42
received the death penalty. >> Right. And it's strange to me uh talk about a mom being an enabler which we
00:49:51
talked about in the Casey Anthony case. >> John Wayne Gasey's mom still never believed that he was guilty of the
00:49:58
crimes. >> Right. Um, and I wonder how much of that is that she believes that her son was
00:50:05
insane. >> Okay. >> You know, that he was not guilty by reason of insanity. >> Well, diving into the sick, twisted mind
00:50:13
of uh John Wayne Gayy, we we actually when we had an apartment together, we actually remember those documentaries
00:50:19
they started coming out with, not documentaries, but reenactments, I guess. >> Yeah. They would do a movie of like a
00:50:24
serial killer. >> Yeah. Dmer and I think we watched Dmer together. And I think we watched and I
00:50:30
think we watched uh Gayy together too. >> Did Gasey had the the the big guy that
00:50:35
played in um >> Peewee Herman's Playhouse? >> Yeah, he was uh uh Buckton. I can't
00:50:40
remember his first name, but uh Francis Buckton, the guy that paid to have the bicycle stolen.
00:50:46
>> And >> yeah, >> he was also the he played center for the basketball team on Teen Wolf.
00:50:51
>> Oh yeah, great movie. >> Wonderful movie. >> But great actor though. underrated cuz
00:50:57
if you watch that I I'd recommend it as far as entertainment if you if you're into this thing and you kind of want to
00:51:04
get a glimpse into maybe what some of the visual of you know with the Pogo the clown and all that stuff. It was an
00:51:10
interesting movie and I think he did a great job you know uh Francis did a great job acting the part. Uh it's not
00:51:18
very factual. I actually rewatched it while you know preparing for the show. >> Okay.
00:51:24
>> It's not that factual. There's a lot of stuff that they kind of miss on. >> Um, and I think that, you know,
00:51:29
Hollywood up, but it is we I think we watched that when we had an apartment together. But something that I thought
00:51:37
was really interesting going back over this and something that I've kind of never thought about too
00:51:44
much or never really made my ears perk up is this idea that you know normally it's like okay John Wayne Gasey saying
00:51:53
well okay so h there was this other guy and then we start thinking that well maybe that's split personality
00:52:02
but when he starts talking later in life before, you know, his death, he's going
00:52:07
to start talking about other people involved. >> Yeah. >> And other accompllices. And every time
00:52:13
that he's like talked about it in the past, I never really put much weight into that.
00:52:17
>> Mhm. >> Yeah. During the 80s, during his time in prison, he starts bringing up, you know,
00:52:22
that there were other people that helped me with these killings. You know, there
00:52:26
there were two or I think at sometimes he's he's quoted as saying there were two people that helped him. Uh other
00:52:33
times I believe he said as many as three people that had >> no I think I think the total not I think
00:52:38
uh one of the interviews I watched he said four. >> Okay. >> And during that interview he actually
00:52:43
named name names. Now again never put much weight to this until you know one of the accusers talks about that well it
00:52:52
wasn't just John Wayne Gasey there was another guy there. >> Yeah. Jeff Rignol. Uh he was the one
00:52:57
that was abducted and got away. And he would later state that he believed that there was another man present at Gayy's
00:53:04
home that night that he was attacked. >> Right? Which starts making you think, well, there's some validity. And if you
00:53:11
listen to the trailer, we we talked about how police work saying, well, we're denying that we're looking for
00:53:16
accompllices. But there seems to be like there was some evidence to point that there might
00:53:22
have been during some of the attacks. And I would just argue to say this is a guy that was throwing these huge parties
00:53:30
watching these stag films and also these big parties where they're doing, you know, orgies.
00:53:37
>> Mhm. >> And I'm I'm there obviously there's a big stretch from going to that to having
00:53:42
somebody be a compliment of murder, but I'm just saying what kind of what kind of people what
00:53:50
kind of sick people was he running with? And I think we should play this news clip because I think it will explain the
00:53:56
situation in better detail than what we can. [Music] >> Larry, >> he was known as the killer clown. John
00:54:10
Wayne Gasey murdered 33 young men and was executed in 1993. But we're learning the Gayy story may not be over. New
00:54:18
details of the investigation have only recently come to light and may show Gayy didn't act alone. 33 years after his
00:54:24
arrest, there are still lingering questions about John Wayne Gayy. Terry Sullivan was on the prosecution team.
00:54:31
>> I felt that from the beginning that uh that there may be loose ends. It was such a huge case and especially at the
00:54:37
time. >> The idea of a Gayy accomplice was raised from the beginning by Jeffrey Rignnull.
00:54:42
He is one of the few people who survived Gayy's attack. He said another man was at Gasey's home the night Gayy raped
00:54:49
him. Attorneys Robert Stevenson and Steve Becker have been trying to help families of victims find answers.
00:54:55
They've been getting tips from the public and they've uncovered information that they say shows someone else may
00:55:00
have been involved in some of the killings. >> There is significant evidence out there
00:55:03
that suggests that not only did John Wayne Gasey not operate alone, may not have been involved in some of the the
00:55:09
murders and the fact that he was largely a copycat killer. For this story, we're
00:55:13
focusing on two of Gayy's victims, Russell Nelson and Robert Gilroy. September 15th, 1977.
00:55:22
Gilroy sends a letter to his girlfriend from a mailbox not far from Gasey's home. Then at 6:00 p.m. that same day,
00:55:29
Gilroy is supposed to meet other kids at a bus stop for a trip to equestrian school, but he never shows up. He was
00:55:37
never seen again. But according to Gasey's receipts in court records, Gasey's plane ticket
00:55:43
shows he flew to Pennsylvania September 12th and didn't return until the night of the 16th, the day after Gilroy was
00:55:51
last seen alive. Could someone have been helping Gayy? Listen to this recording of a phone conversation between Gayy in
00:55:58
prison and a friend in Chicago. >> Well, I wasn't even in Illinois when 16 of these so-called individuals
00:56:03
disappeared. A month later, October 1977, Russell Nelson disappears. According to
00:56:09
testimony from his mother, Russell went to a disco on North Broadway with a friend who was several years older. The
00:56:16
friend called the family to say Nelson just disappeared outside the disco and that he would look for him if they'd
00:56:22
send money. He called me two or three times a week and threatened me for money. He said he was staying down here
00:56:28
to look for my son. Russell Nelson's brothers went to Chicago to look for Russell and met with
00:56:34
the friend who was asking their mother to send money to help search for Russell. The friend offered Russell's
00:56:39
brothers a job with John Wayne Gasey. Russell Nelson's sister-in-law recently told us the family is anxious for
00:56:46
answers. >> I would like to have if anybody else is involved in it justice for what they
00:56:51
have done to him or it could have been somebody else out there. >> And another possible connection to Gayy.
00:56:56
It turns out a few months before Russell Nelson disappeared, Gayy did work at a drugstore just blocks from where the
00:57:03
friend lived. >> I think it tells us that John Wayne Gasey was using other individuals to
00:57:07
procure young boys over state lines. >> According to Becker and Stevenson, the friend is still alive and now living in
00:57:14
another state. >> If in fact Gayy um had other accompllices or people who knew something that was going on, uh those
00:57:21
people should be be brought to justice. It's scary in and of itself that there may be others out there. There's
00:57:26
something else mysterious about the cases of Robert Gilroy and Russell Nelson. While Gasey was known to use a
00:57:32
rope and board to strangle his victims. The autopsy reports for Gilroy and Nelson show they died from asphixxiation
00:57:39
from suffocation, not strangulation. The report says that each had cloth in their
00:57:45
mouths. >> They claimed that I strangled each and every one of them. Liure strangulation.
00:57:51
Put a rope around their neck and strangle them after they were handcuffed. If that's so, then how come the autopsy
00:57:57
reports don't match that, which tells you there had to be more than one person. >> In fact, 13 victims were listed as
00:58:03
suffocation. Another serial killer case may offer insight to Gayy's mode of operation. In Terry Sullivan's book,
00:58:10
Killer Clown, a detective asked Gayy where he got the idea for the torture board. Gayy replies, "From Elmer Wayne
00:58:17
Henley." Henley and another boy helped serial killer Dean Coral, whose case has a lot of similarities with Gayy. Coral
00:58:25
abducted, raped, tortured, and murdered 28 boys, mostly teenagers, in the early 1970s in Houston. He often used
00:58:33
handcuffs, and strangled his victims. >> They do follow Coral's mode of operation
00:58:38
almost identically. And one of the most significant parts about Coral is that he
00:58:42
used two much younger individuals to assist him in gathering up and and luring in his victims.
00:58:47
>> Nothing as far as killing or recruiting or or bringing. We we had no evidence.
00:58:52
We thought about it, but we just never saw any evidence. >> Gasey's defense lawyer, Sam Emiranti,
00:58:56
says he doesn't believe any of it. He says Gayy confessed to everything early on and after years in prison, began to
00:59:03
change his story. >> I uh used to talk to Gayy about uh maybe somebody else uh committed the offense.
00:59:09
Maybe Gayy was in some sort of stuper or drug state or alcohol state and didn't know what was going on around him. And
00:59:17
uh we sort of uh would plant a seed in John's brain as to what happened. He would look at us say, you know, maybe,
00:59:23
you know, maybe you're right. Maybe that's really what happened. >> Becker and Stevenson will be taking
00:59:27
their case to law enforcement. >> These individuals did end up in Gasey's crawl space. So, we're just looking to
00:59:33
find out the the whole truth about these cases and we follow these leads to this
00:59:36
point. >> If these individuals were waking uh working with John Wayne Gasey to procure
00:59:41
young boys, they should be held to justice. The scope of the Gayy case is as complex as it is disturbing. And
00:59:48
after three decades, there are still questions that haunt investigators as well as the families of victims still
00:59:54
looking for answers. >> All right. Thank you, Larry. >> So, what do you think about everything
01:00:05
that uh they were reporting on there regarding these the you know, the two victims that they talked about? You
01:00:11
know, Gasey's might have been gone during one of the, you know, off in Pennsylvania.
01:00:16
>> Yeah. I don't know how much, you know, I got a plane ticket, so that proves I was here. Nah, you don't have
01:00:23
anybody that saw you. >> Not only that, he could have the boy could have ended up at his house the
01:00:27
next day once he got home. >> Yeah. The the reason why I feel that there is some validity to this is one,
01:00:33
they investigated it. the prosecution thought there there was maybe some ties and the fact that there was, you know, a
01:00:41
victim >> that talked about it and and so that makes it to me a lot more like a situation with like the Johnny Gosh type
01:00:51
thing >> where it's like, well, here's this guy that was predominant and and trying to
01:00:57
raise his social status and he was around people that had social status and was there some kind of weird weird sex
01:01:05
ring going on. I don't know. I I think there is some evidence to to to show that.
01:01:13
>> Well, and I'll tell you what, I'm going to kind of present the thing from both
01:01:16
sides of the fence here on on the potential case that there was an accomplice or accompllices.
01:01:23
Um, the thing is we have a couple of guys that work for John Wayne Gayy that knew he was a weirdo. They said, you
01:01:29
know, he tricked me into handcuffs and he came on to me and he did all this weird stuff. He would have these weird
01:01:35
parties, but I also, even though I knew the guy was a weirdo, I I pro, you know,
01:01:41
I did work at his house, uh, digging trenches and lifting floorboards and and these different projects, and I did it
01:01:48
without asking any questions. Um, that does seem a little weird to me. Could they have been rounding up people off of
01:01:55
the streets for Gayy and he's he's paying them, you know, 200 bucks a person or or or something of that
01:02:03
nature. Possibility. Um >> Right. So then by saying, well, I dug ditches and stuff, you're implementing
01:02:10
yourself less. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I and I don't want to and now I'm going to talk about it from
01:02:15
the flip side here. >> Mhm. >> I don't want to discredit any victim. you know, this this Jeff guy, he was he
01:02:23
was abducted. He was taken to Gasey's home. He thankfully gets away. Uh he's the one that says he saw another man
01:02:31
there. Uh but let's keep in mind, Jeff was blacking out. He was going in and out of consciousness this entire period.
01:02:39
Is there a chance that he is misremembering? That he doesn't he doesn't fully understand everything that
01:02:46
he thought that he saw during this situation? >> Yeah, it's possible. We also talked
01:02:51
about there were several people that said that, you know, once Gayy got you in the handcuffs that he almost he he
01:02:58
turned into a different person almost like he was possessed to the point where he even slightly looked different
01:03:05
>> where where they didn't even recognize him. Um >> Jack Hanley. >> Yeah. >> So, but here's the verdict on that
01:03:11
though, >> right? John Wayne Gasey, Jack Hanley, one and the same. Both douche canoes.
01:03:18
>> Yeah. So >> that's one full canoe right there. >> Um the thing is too the the other thing
01:03:25
is with Gayy >> we see at the very beginning his defense attorneys now I got to point this out
01:03:31
because this is a strange situation. His defense attorney uh was a private was not a private he was a public defender
01:03:39
for several years >> a colonel >> and he decided to go into private practice. Well unfortunate for him his
01:03:46
first client was John Wayne Gasey. Can you imagine? Can you imagine that situation? But the situation is this.
01:03:53
You know, when his attorney tells Gayy says, "You know what? You've got to be insane to do this, and we're we're going
01:03:58
to recommend that we we state that you're not guilty by the reason of insanity. I believe Gayy ran with that."
01:04:05
He's like, "Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. I didn't think of that. Oh, remember my good friend Jack Hanley who
01:04:11
who did a lot of these murders?" So, it seems to me like we have a situation here where somebody might have presented
01:04:16
some information to Gayy and he's saying, "Huh, I've been stuck in prison for a while. Um, my execution date is
01:04:22
drawing near. How about I get creative like Mr. Ted Bundy?" And you know, can Bundy started confessing to things
01:04:28
towards the end? What if Gayy thought, "Well, I can concoct some stories and buy me some time,
01:04:34
>> right?" Yeah. Again, the reason why I have some validity or why I feel there's
01:04:40
some validity to it is one, the prosecution thought that it was possible and the victim.
01:04:46
>> Mhm. >> And this is going to bring us up to um his execution. >> Yes. On May 10th, 1994, John Wayne Gasey
01:04:55
was executed at Statesville Correctional Center in Crest Hill, Illinois by lethal
01:05:00
injection. Mhm. >> His last meal consisted of a dozen deep fried shrimp, a bucket of original
01:05:07
recipe chicken from KFC, a pound of fresh strawberries, and French fries. Now, I'm guessing here, Captain, what
01:05:15
actually happened is he that's probably what he requested. He probably got some fried chicken from the prison kitchen.
01:05:21
Uh his execution was a minor media sensation. There were large crowds of people gathered for the execution party
01:05:29
outside of the penitentiary. Uh there were several arrests during those execution parties uh for public
01:05:36
intoxication, open container violations, and disorderly conduct. Vendors sold Gayy related t-shirts and
01:05:44
other merchandise, and the crowd cheered at the moment when Gayy was pronounced dead. According
01:05:52
to reports, Gayy did not express any remorse. His last words to his lawyer in his cell were something to the effect
01:06:00
that killing him would not bring anyone back. It is also reported that his last words were, "Kiss my ass." Uh, which
01:06:08
which is not really what he said while he was, you know, lying there waiting to die.
01:06:15
He can you imagine? You're the prison guard. you're going up and going, "Well, we're we gota poke you."
01:06:21
>> Yeah. And this >> kiss my ass. >> They say those are his last words, but you know, he didn't actually give a
01:06:26
final statement, but those were his last words in the sense that when he was being led to the execution chamber, he
01:06:33
looked at one of the correctional officers and said, "Kiss my ass. Kiss my ass." Well, worse than that,
01:06:45
several of Gayy's victims that were found buried in his home still to this day have not been identified,
01:06:51
>> right? And that's that's a tragedy. >> Yeah. And we have a situation where I believe that uh within the last 10 years
01:06:57
or so, they did identify one of those unidentified victims. Um there was a situation in 2013 where there was a man
01:07:05
that was always believed to have been murdered by John Wayne Gasey, but he was found living in Montana. Um, so that
01:07:14
made him the fifth potential victim found alive in the past two years between 2011 and 2013. The investigators
01:07:22
tracked him down, this was after um, basically what happened with him was he the last time his family spoke to him,
01:07:30
he had stated that he was going to be hitchhiking from New York City out to California. Mhm.
01:07:36
>> And they thought because they had never heard from their son for all these years
01:07:41
that he may have been passing through Chicago and got picked up by Gayy somehow. Um unfortunately for the
01:07:47
family, they were they believed him to be a victim for quite some time. Uh but found that he was living in Montana all
01:07:54
these years later and he did reunite with his father. Unfortunately, his mother passed away believing he was a
01:08:01
victim. >> Right. But he didn't he just didn't like his family anymore. >> He just Yeah. He he decided to leave
01:08:06
town and he never, you know, reconnected with his family. He he actually didn't even know that he was considered to be a
01:08:13
victim of John Wayne Gayy. >> Well, I want to personally thank you, Colonel, for uh sharing the stories that
01:08:20
will give me nightmares about Pogo >> and John Wayne Gasey. Do we have any recommended reading for the week?
01:08:27
>> We do. This week we're recommending John Wayne Gasey, Defending a Monster by Sam
01:08:33
Amarante. And now Sam is the public defender that turned into his private practice
01:08:40
>> and he became John Wayne Gasey's attorney. And he wrote this many years later. Um but I'll give you a little a
01:08:48
little clip here. Um he answered the phone one day. Sam did and he heard Sam, could you do me a favor? This is how the
01:08:57
story began of what now has become part of America's true crime hall of fame. It's a gory, grotesque tale. It's almost
01:09:04
like a Stephen King novel. And I'll tell you what, one thing that I find that's hard to find in the true crime genre.
01:09:10
You know, so many of these books are written by former detectives or former FBI. They're not true authors. They're
01:09:16
not true storytellers. >> Uh Sam would you would think would fall into that category having been a lawyer
01:09:23
and then going on to become a judge. However, this story, it really it reads like a Truman Capot book, you know,
01:09:30
where it it reads more like a novel, more like a like a story. So, I highly recommend John Wayne Gasey, defending a
01:09:36
monster, and you can pick that up by going to our website, true crimegar.com, and click on the Amazon banner. Thanks
01:09:42
to everybody for listening. Thanks for the fivestar reviews. And thank you for telling a friend about the show. And we
01:09:47
hope to see all of you back here in the garage next week for another episode. And until then, be good, be kind, and
01:09:54
don't live. Heat. Heat. [Music] [Applause] [Music]