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GameChanger [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:01:44
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who claims to have been Spit On by Keith Hernandez here is
00:01:51
the captain yeah nice game pretty boy it's good to be seen it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for
00:01:58
telling a friend today we are still sipping on birthday Bomb by The Genius beer brewers over at
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Prairie Artisan alses this is a fantastic beer with a birthday party going down right on the label it's a
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celebration it's a festival it's a delicious Imperial Stout double coffee Imperial Stout if you're nasty ABV a
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bombing 133% so drink this one at home in your garage sound the trumpets please as birthday bomb is most definitely a
00:02:32
five out of five bottle caps kind of beer and let's give some praise who are good friends right here first up we have
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a shout to Kim and Chris in Florida a big cheers to Nicholas l in Parts Unknown and here's a double cheers to
00:02:47
Jan and Jana in Seattle hey hey hey Jana and a big we like your jib to Debra in Roseville Michigan next up here's a
00:02:56
cheers to Kai and cersi Arkansas and last but certainly not least we have Miss Natalie bones in Seattle Washington
00:03:04
so thanks to everyone for tuning into Today's Show and thank you to everyone who contributed to this week's beer fund
00:03:12
yeah BW R you in beer run for all of our old episodes check them out wherever you
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listen to your podcast and make sure you check out our bonus podcast called off the record on Stitcher premium
00:03:26
exclusively on Stitcher premium check that out and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather
00:03:32
around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime on July 22nd 1993 an employee at
00:03:57
the University of California is injured after opening a package that exploded in
00:04:02
his kitchen the package was mailed to his home this is world-renowned geneticist Dr Charles Epstein he was
00:04:10
severely injured in the attack just two days later Captain a prominent computer scientist from Yale University receives
00:04:18
a bomb in the mail and lost several fingers when he opened up the package in December of
00:04:26
1994 a package was received at the home of Tom Moser in North Caldwell New Jersey Thomas Moser was an executive at
00:04:35
the public relations firm Bon Marell Thomas opens the package and is killed immediately now this is Bomb number 15
00:04:44
if you are keeping score at home on April 24th 1995 a mailbomb was sent to William
00:04:54
Dennison at his office however Dennison who the package is addressed to is actually the former president of the
00:05:04
California Forestry Association located in Sacramento so the new president is the
00:05:10
one who actually receives this package this is Gilbert Murray he opens the package and he is killed
00:05:19
immediately so now what we have here Captain is two bombs in a row that are both deadly our attacker seems to have
00:05:27
perfected his craft which has to be scary for the FBI because what we know in his previous attacks is not just
00:05:34
sending bombs to individuals but the bombs that he put on the flight flight 444 and if that bomb would have went off
00:05:43
we're talking about casualties almost up to a 100 people and so if he's able to then go hey well this is working instead
00:05:52
of going after single individuals again I'll go after the airlines again and if they don't stop it I mean you're you're
00:05:59
talking about a massive Devastation Captain I want to get into some Communications that have been going
00:06:06
on through the course of this investigation and these attacks now there was a letter that was sent to the
00:06:12
San Francisco Examiner in 1985 and I actually have in my notes here that a letter at some point was
00:06:20
received by the San Francisco Chronicle as well I don't have that date in front of me but one thing interesting to our
00:06:27
listeners they will remember the San Franc Isco Chronicle from the Zodiac case that's where he sent most of his
00:06:36
Communications now in this letter back from 1985 the author is explaining what FC stands for so I'll
00:06:48
just read the first couple sentences of this letter and what it says here is that this was a
00:06:55
handwritten letter and it says to the San Francisco examiner the bomb that crippled the right arm of a graduate
00:07:03
student in electrical engineering and damaged a computer lab at U of cow Berkeley last May was planted by a
00:07:11
terrorist group called Freedom club we are also responsible for some earlier bombing attempts and it goes on to list
00:07:21
some of those attempts and it also goes on to State how some of the bombs were constructed to try to prove that we are
00:07:30
in fact who we say we are yeah and then also they reminded everybody that the first rule of Freedom Club is to not
00:07:39
talk about Freedom Club as well as the second rule of Freedom Club as well now there was some communication with the
00:07:46
New York Times from this same terrorist group that's identifying themselves as terrorist group FC in their
00:07:55
Communications with a Warren Hodge of the New York Times this letter was in 1995 again
00:08:04
explaining just like we said with the previous letter what the group stands for what
00:08:10
they're responsible for and descriptions of bombs proving we are who we say we are what's interesting about this
00:08:20
scenario with both of these situations with the the letter to the San Francisco newspaper and then the New York Times
00:08:28
one thing that the FBI was doing in their investigations was they were able to really pinpoint and determine where
00:08:37
the mail bombs that were actually sent through the mail were shipped from where where someone dropped them into the mail
00:08:44
they found that the majority of the communications as well as the majority of the bombs that were mailed were
00:08:51
mailed in the San Francisco area so what they believe in their investigation is that they are looking for someone one
00:08:59
who lives in or around the greater San Francisco area now we have another scenario and
00:09:07
this comes from the 1995 letter to the New York Times what they see on the letter is indentations
00:09:16
like someone had wrote something on another piece of paper on top of this letter or this envelope that was sent to
00:09:22
the New York Times through some analysis they're able to determine what what was written and
00:09:29
It Was Written call Nathan R Wednesday 700 p.m. now the FBI is desperately looking for a Nathan R because they
00:09:40
believe that this evidence suggests to them that the unibomber made a mistake he accidentally wrote over top of his
00:09:50
letter and now they need to find a Nathan R because a Nathan R may have received a call on a Wednesday at 7:00
00:09:58
p.m. at some point from the unibomber who made a note to themselves call Nathan R Wednesday 7 p.m. they are
00:10:07
making a national hunt for everyone named Nathan r with the last initial last name initial of R yeah or possibly
00:10:16
Nathan R is connected to this Freedom Club their second objective once they track down every Nathan R and ask them
00:10:24
the simple question of do you know who the unibomber is or do you who called you on Wednesday at 7:00 p.m. so so on
00:10:31
and so forth yeah or sometimes they ask him to straight up are you a piece of [ __ ] they thought you know what if it's
00:10:38
not Nathan last name that starts with r once we've cleared all them let's start looking for Nathan middle initial R
00:10:47
right the problem with this is there's a lot of Nathan RS out there first of all
00:10:53
and second of all not all these guys want to talk to you you know you're a law enforcement agency and you're saying
00:10:59
hey we need to ask you a couple questions you're going what are you doing contacting me I don't know what it
00:11:04
is that you're talking about get the hell out of here especially if you're nowhere near the San Francisco area I
00:11:10
wonder if there was any communication within the FBI to go well we have now communication from this
00:11:19
FC possibly an individual or a group all the communication is coming from San Francisco our communication with the
00:11:28
Zodiac was coming from San San Francisco there's now communication between this unibomber or FC
00:11:37
towards newspapers just like the zodiac is it I wonder if there was conversation
00:11:44
within the agency to go is this somehow connected to the Zodiac my guess would be that when you have this many agents
00:11:53
working on a case and in a case that's uh has a span of this many years that you probably have all kinds of
00:12:01
speculation and theories especially early on in the case when you have really no evidence at all of anything
00:12:09
going on other than this FC calling card that's being left with each bomb so remember the communication with Warren
00:12:17
Hodge of the New York Times what we then have are several threatening letters that are sent to persons that would
00:12:25
later be receiving bombs or at least the threat of Poss possibly receiving a bomb
00:12:30
and I'll read one but there were multiple of these and this one says Dear Dr Roberts it would be be it would be
00:12:38
beneficial to your health to stop your research in genetics this is a warning from FC Warren hodj of the New York
00:12:46
Times can confirm that this note does come from FC which is bizarre because this is a complete different approach to
00:12:54
some of the attacks later that we're seeing in the '90s compared to what we saw saw in the late' 70s and 80s where
00:13:01
there is in fact a communication in advance and a threat that is sent out saying stop what you're doing here's our
00:13:09
threat we are FC and oh yeah this guy Warren Hodge he can confirm that we are who we say we are because we've already
00:13:18
communicated with him at the New York Times come on we'll learn later is by the '90s the mid90s that the FBI is
00:13:27
going to have a list of about 2,000 suspects yes um in April 24 1995 that was the last deadly bomb that
00:13:37
was received again it was at the California Forestry Association exactly two months later on
00:13:45
June 24th 1995 copies of a three copies of a 35,000 word essay titled industrial
00:13:54
society and its future by FC were sent to the new yorktimes times The Washington Post and Penthouse Magazine
00:14:02
again very similar cuz it's sending to three different Publications and then also very similar
00:14:10
like what the Zodiac did to say hey publish these ciphers publish this Manifesto right and what you have here
00:14:18
Captain is basically it's this very lengthy Manifesto of what the author deems to be the
00:14:29
industrial society and the damages that it's doing to our society and to our freedoms and so on and so forth but also
00:14:37
saying you know we are FC we are the freedom club we are this terrorist organization who has been terrorizing
00:14:45
America for well over a decade now now if you publish our essay and I think there was even the words in there
00:14:55
publish or Parish meaning if you don't publish this we're going to ramp up our attacks and oh yeah we've been deadly as
00:15:03
of late we've killed the last two people that we've attempted to kill now we can
00:15:09
ramp up these attacks if you don't submit to our demands which is publishing this
00:15:14
essay or if you do publish it well we will desist from terrorism if this demand is
00:15:23
met there was of course a lot of controversy over the idea do we give into this terrorist demand of printing
00:15:32
their essay in the papers I believe it was titled industrial society and its future what you end up having happen
00:15:41
here is this great debate that is going on behind the scenes do we publish or do
00:15:47
we not publish yeah and really what we want to have happen here the FBI is going to have the final say so they are
00:15:55
going to tell these Publications if they can publish or not however these things
00:16:01
were sent to three different periodical so we have the New York Times And The Washington Post that really says that
00:16:12
you know we are going to go off of the FBI's recommendation well and look we we have
00:16:18
a debate going on with inside the agency because like we were talking about earlier last week um off the Record if
00:16:28
you will that they did these uh strategies with the Zodiac and never caught him so the
00:16:35
people that are saying hey we need to publish this because this is going to bring other people out to to possibly be
00:16:43
able to identify this group or this individual and there's other people coming back and going hey it didn't work
00:16:49
with zodiac so how are you so certain that it's going to work with this uni bombers Manifesto it didn't work with
00:16:56
zodiac but the interesting thing thing is that the majority of the time when these especially when it's a Serial
00:17:03
offender that when they start communicating the communication is what often leads to their
00:17:12
capture and so you have this you have this conf confusion going on of oh we don't give into terrorist demands but oh
00:17:21
this also might be this might be our spearhead for our investigation to finally catching this
00:17:28
guy mhm so the Penthouse Magazine look they're they're looking to become newsworthy I guess right they're saying
00:17:38
okay times they're going to defer to the FBI the post is going to defer to the FBI we're going to publish it here at
00:17:46
Penthouse Magazine yeah they said no more with the tatas the ties and the tatas we're going
00:17:54
to we're going to go right after the industrial society well they they were going to continue doing exactly what
00:17:59
they were doing but they they knew this thing's going to sell a lot of papers sell a lot of magazines and so of course
00:18:06
they wanted to post it and this is public information this is being released to the the ongoing talks of
00:18:14
whether to publish or not are upfront and center and the public is aware of what's going on it's just sad that but
00:18:21
their editor wanted to call it the Unabomber Manifesto well the the thing here is
00:18:28
though now we have an issue of the author of the industrial society and its future they're going well this was kind
00:18:39
of a good game plan by the author in my opinion because you have two quote unquote respectable two respectable
00:18:48
Publications and one that's not respectable and he or the author whomever it was or this group or what
00:18:57
have you they want this Manifesto to be printed in an upstanding publication the
00:19:04
New York Times The Washington Post are both but it's kind of cool that they leverage this against those two by
00:19:12
sending it to someone who was probably just willing to print it to sell papers sell magazines and so when you see that
00:19:20
this debate is going on in front of the American public now you have the you have the author or author th come
00:19:29
forward and say okay look we agreed that we would stop our terrorism we would stop the bombings if this was printed
00:19:38
however if it's not printed in the two newspapers or one of the two newspapers and it's only printed in Penthouse
00:19:46
Magazine because it's not an upstanding publication well we reserve the right to
00:19:51
send one more deadly bomb one more deadly attack and then it can be post poed in
00:19:58
the Penthouse magazine and we will stop our terrorism then our acts of terrorism
00:20:04
then what they realize with the three different Publications was we should we should print this in the Washington Post
00:20:11
because it's going to be easier for us to monitor um it had it had a less of a footprint as far as where the Washington
00:20:20
Post was received by readers right when you say they you mean the FBI the FBI has to put some strateg some strategy
00:20:29
into this idea of do we post or not well cuz they know that once they post it that this individual is going to want to
00:20:36
read this and so they figured well maybe we could catch him that way by wanting to read his work in the paper right so
00:20:45
what you have is a double pronged attack the authors the this group FC Freedom Club they picked these three
00:20:54
Publications well the New York Times is well distributed everywhere across the entire country The Washington Post it's
00:21:03
distributed across the entire country but there's fewer Outlets to purchase and pick up the actual paper Penthouse
00:21:10
Magazine I would assume is distributed across the country but again fewer Outlets to pick up the magazine and
00:21:17
you're exactly right Captain they determined that in San Francisco in the greater San Francisco area where we
00:21:23
think this guy is uh living there was only I believe one place that you could purchase the Washington Post
00:21:34
in that greater San Francisco area so they're like cool on the day we will agree to print this
00:21:43
Manifesto but we're it's like the deli press release the deli press conference that we saw a couple years
00:21:51
back where they made the announcement in advance this is when we are doing this trying to draw the killer trying to draw
00:22:00
the attention from the killer to that location on that specific day so now we're going to announce yes we will
00:22:08
print it it will be printed in the Washington Post only and it will be printed on September 19th
00:22:16
1995 so author FC you now know when you should be ready to go purchase and pick up your
00:22:25
newspaper they're going to monitor that location in San Francisco and with the idea of photographing and questioning
00:22:33
every individual that buys a copy at that news stand or what have you on September 19th 1995 it's a two-pronged
00:22:42
approach to their investigation to draw out the killer one either he does show up in the San Francisco area and
00:22:49
purchase a Washington Post newspaper on said day and they lure him out that way or B they print the manifesto somebody
00:22:59
that knows FC can identify them by their words and by their writing can contact the FBI and say I think I know who
00:23:11
you're looking for right and I also think there's some identifiers in there that the FBI saw right and you would
00:23:18
have that in really any type of writing especially something that's 35,000 words
00:23:24
yeah I mean there's a lot to sift through there there's a lot to consider but not just the identifiers that you're
00:23:32
pointing out here but it's also the ideals yes I mean this is that's what this manuscript is it's it's a a list of
00:23:42
ideals of how this person believes that the future is going to be affected by the Industrial Revolution and and and
00:23:49
everything going on with technology and nature versus technology and so on and so forth that someone will probably at
00:23:58
some point recognize the mission of FC or Freedom club and understand that because again we go back to yesterday's
00:24:06
trailer when we talk about the psychological makeup of this individual you really patting yourself on the back
00:24:15
about that that uh trailer aren't you well if he's anything like the mad bomber what Dr brussle determined was
00:24:23
that this would be a grudge holder that this person would have certain delusions
00:24:28
and would have certain ideas that they might be able to act normal and set those aside until it comes up somewhere
00:24:36
in conversation or until they bring it up somewhere in conversation and this their ideas would be discussed with
00:24:43
others well also with this Manifesto I mean right away to me it's like this person has a higher level of
00:24:51
intelligence um he's speaking of ideas U one of the Great Anor Roosevelt quotes his great minds discuss ideas average
00:25:02
Minds discuss events and small minds discuss people and he's not essentially doing that in this Manifesto he is
00:25:10
presenting these ideas uh and these problems that he sees facing the whole of society but not blaming individuals
00:25:19
I'm I respect your opinion but I'm going to have to disagree he's not talking about individuals
00:25:26
specifically but but he kind of lumps people together and categorizes people as certain things and references them in
00:25:35
that manner and he does reference events as well to kind of back up his claims or
00:25:41
his beliefs yeah but I also think some of one you can see as intelligence two there's a lot of futuristic predictions
00:25:50
I think now a lot of stuff that is being talked about now and so that's why I think people are going to wait maybe
00:25:56
this guy wasn't a complete madman uh even comparing this Manifesto to you know 1984 George Orwells
00:26:06
1984 maybe he lumped people into very standard groups but he's not going after one individual or multiple individuals
00:26:16
and saying all this is their fault that's correct um anybody I I don't know if you've read it or not
00:26:23
Captain but uh again I I have a bit of a different take probably on this than some people that I've seen give their
00:26:30
opinions on well there's there's also two versions because he updated it so there I think there's one that's like
00:26:36
126 pages and then one that's Le less than that yeah so I'm just going off of the one that was printed in the paper on
00:26:46
September 19th 1995 when he's making the threats um yeah it's um yeah it's you can obviously tell that
00:26:58
it was written by an intelligent individual or a group of individuals and it's but at the end of the day to me it
00:27:06
looks like the ramblings of an Angry Young Man um I I didn't find anything particularly brilliant about the the
00:27:14
thoughts of the future of society or lack of freedoms that us as individuals may have in that Society it I mean it's
00:27:24
nothing there's no predictions or thoughts in there that would be any more brilliant than George Lucas's Star Wars
00:27:33
or stuff that we've seen in sci-fi uh books comic books and TV throughout the decades right but I think
00:27:42
I I think that's lessen lessening these ideas I mean maybe he just came out with these
00:27:49
ideas in 1995 but he's talking about the way he thinks Society is going to work with artificial intelligence and
00:27:59
that stuff that's we're just now talking about in the public uh atmosphere like in the last five years and so yeah I
00:28:08
mean I but I think the work of uh George Lucas and and the creators of like Star
00:28:14
Trek and the things that they were able to think of how they thought the future would go those were genius ideas and so
00:28:23
if you compare them to that I think you have to say some of these thoughts are genius level ideas
00:28:32
agreed agreed as said I believe it's obvious that the uh there's some intelligence there from the author I
00:28:39
just don't find it to be anything super unique he's not the only one thinking of
00:28:45
some of these ideas now what this does do though is it does have the desired effect because we start getting a lot of
00:28:54
people coming forward saying oh I know somebody that talks like this I know somebody that that has said similar
00:29:01
ideas I know someone that writes like this so on and so forth what we end up having Captain is a
00:29:09
husband and wife will eventually come forward and this will be David kazinski and Linda Patrick and the way that this
00:29:17
goes down is Linda Patrick decides she is going to read this Manifesto knows that it's going to be published decides
00:29:25
that she is going to read it she reads it and she informs her husband David she says this sounds to me a lot like your
00:29:33
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app [Music] today all right we're back cheers mates cheers to you Colonel and cheers to everybody
00:32:03
for the the nice uh birthday wishes yesterday I appreciate it and cheers to the people in the back all right we
00:32:11
brought up David kazinski and his wife Linda Patrick the way this comes about here is Linda Patrick tells David I
00:32:18
think that this author of this Manifesto could be your brother it sounds a lot like how your brother
00:32:25
writes this this is really interesting because Linda Patrick had never technically met David's brother Ted
00:32:33
right he just would write them quite often he would write them some nasty letters and a lot of the letters are
00:32:40
about David now being married to Linda and how much Ted does not like Linda and how much Linda has changed his brother
00:32:48
David and he never met her for the worse that's right that's hilarious yeah well
00:32:54
he's the ultimate Grudge holder mhm um and so Linda it does take some convincing to her husband David that the
00:33:05
writings are similar and in fact David ends up finding an essay that Ted had written years before that actually is
00:33:14
listing out a lot of these same ideas that are presented in the what is dubb by the FBI the unibomber
00:33:21
manifesto eventually David is convinced that his brother should be looking that he's concerned because you have things
00:33:30
like Ruby Ridge that went down where the FBI surrounded a home and they had guns
00:33:35
inside a gun a gunfight breaks out and we now have people dead as a result of Ruby rdge he was worried the same thing
00:33:44
could happen with his brother his brother's living out in the middle of nowhere in Lincoln Montana and a tiny
00:33:51
little cabin and he's got guns in his little cabin got really annoying after like the fifth or sixth person as I'm
00:33:59
researching this case said little Log Cabin this is not a log cabin this looks more like a
00:34:06
shed yeah and there's no running water and there's no I believe there's no electricity as well no he's [ __ ] in
00:34:14
the floor inside this cabin well to put it as bluntly as possible gave me some warning I'm trying to
00:34:21
finish my sandwich he could have bothered to build an ouse at some point maybe he did in decided to to move it
00:34:28
inward I don't know but anyway it was too cold it was too his [ __ ] was freezing so he had to [ __ ] inside but
00:34:36
see David is he's at like a Crossroads man because he's got to decide do I suggest that my brother
00:34:45
could be he's not 100% convinced right that Ted is in fact the unibomber the Most Wanted serial killer in the country
00:34:53
at the time he's not 100% convinced does he make this suggestion to the FBI or look if if he's wrong and Ted is
00:35:05
innocent and some type of gunfight breaks out Ted could end up losing his life or if Linda is
00:35:15
right his brother Ted could send out another bomb and kill somebody even though he said hey I'll stop if you
00:35:23
print this you can never take a a threat its word especially from terrorists yeah
00:35:30
I think what's interesting here is that they can they contact a lawyer and they end up contacting a linguist to
00:35:38
basically go over what they think they are seeing and both the lawyer and the linguist confirm it and say no look we
00:35:47
think this is the same individual and we need to go to FBI with this eventually and it doesn't happen overnight captain
00:35:54
again a lot of debate a lot of things going going on behind the scenes here but eventually the FBI does become
00:36:01
convinced that Ted kazinski is in fact the guy the problem that they have with Ted kazinski being Prime Suspect being
00:36:10
the perpetrator is that it actually goes against a lot of the stuff that they collected against the unibomber he
00:36:18
doesn't live anywhere near San Francisco right the guy doesn't even own a vehicle he's [ __ ] in his house the
00:36:26
thing too is he doesn't fit the profile he's a little older than the profiles would suggest I do want to throw this
00:36:33
out there there were dozens of profiles put together about the unibomber including John Douglas that were
00:36:41
not at the end of the day didn't turn out to be great profiles but also the physical description that was given by
00:36:48
the witness that saw the man placing the package in the the parking lot right had
00:36:52
the age wrong had the hair color wrong so there's a lot of reasons to look at this guy and go I see what
00:37:02
you're saying that the language is similar but are we going to go and get this guy simply based off of language
00:37:08
and no physical evidence at all zero physical evidence so much so that it looks difficult that this guy could be
00:37:14
our guy yeah but what they do now because because they have a name is they can then go well what is Ted kazinsky
00:37:23
past and what how did he get to this point where he's living in this cabin isolated all alone and they're going to
00:37:32
start to see reasons that will tie someone like Ted to a lot of these attacks first off he has a history his
00:37:42
childhood he lived in the he lived in the Illinois in the state of Illinois right more specifically around Chicago
00:37:50
we know that one at least one or two of the attacks were Chicago based attacks at the age of 16 Ted enters Harvard
00:38:01
University he graduates from Harvard in 1962 he is accepted to the University of
00:38:08
Michigan for a graduate program to study mathematics well I mean let's not glaze
00:38:14
over the fact that he was in a threeyear long experimental psychological experimental um
00:38:22
study at Harvard when he was 16 right not trying to glaze over that just pointing out what they will look at with
00:38:30
his past that's known to them by knowing his name and how it connects to some of
00:38:35
these attacks so we do know that University of Michigan was one of the targets what they're learning here is
00:38:42
look this guy is this guy is smart at one point test a IQ of like 167 or something like that so he's capable of
00:38:51
making these bombs and then he goes like you said to Michigan and then also then
00:38:55
goes to uh Berkeley California so now we have connection to Berkeley California as well yes and
00:39:04
um 1967 is when he moves from the University of Michigan out to University of California Berkeley there he will be
00:39:13
a teacher he's going to teach math at Berkeley and then in 1969 he resigns from the math department at Berkeley
00:39:22
yeah he he moves back home with his parents for about 2 years but during that time period him his brother and I I
00:39:29
believe his uh father as well um they all help him build this Shack in Montana yeah it was 1971 when he purchased 1.4
00:39:39
acres in South Lincoln Montana and he and his brother start to build this cabin but at the same time captain in
00:39:51
1971 Ted completes an Untitled essay on the evils of Technology this will be again similar to that of
00:40:00
the industrial society in its future once the FBI is convinced that this could be their guy that this should be
00:40:08
their number one suspect you got to look at him and clear him before you can move
00:40:13
on they decide to start surveillance on Ted and his cabin in Lincoln Montana shortly afterwards Captain Theodore John
00:40:23
kazinski was arrested by the FBI in April of 1996 he's arrested at his cabin in Montana and of course he is accused
00:40:34
of killing three people and injuring over 20 people in 16 separate bombings between the
00:40:42
years of 1978 and 1995 I mean yeah this is some of the biggest news uh the capturing of the
00:40:50
Unabomber in 1996 some of the biggest news of 1996 you also have Prince is Diana and Charles get in a divorce you
00:40:59
have mad cow disease in the UK and then obviously you have John B Ramsay's killing later on in that year and as you
00:41:08
pointed out earlier Captain one of the issues they had with Ted was they had 2,000 they being the FBI had 2,000
00:41:17
suspects in this case and Ted kazinski was not listed in that top 2000 you have to applaud his brother and his
00:41:24
sister-in-law for coming for Bo and saying hey um because yeah maybe your brother's writing you some strange
00:41:31
letters here and there but he's not hurting anybody and Ted had no History of Violence that his family knew of and
00:41:40
and actually the opposite one of the things you know Ted had severe hives when he was a kid and he was isolated in
00:41:50
in the hospital when he was younger before his little brother was even born but one of the things that his mother
00:41:55
said was he always had a the way he treated animals especially animals that were in caged he had a real empathy for
00:42:04
them which you normally don't see I mean you hear a lot of times with like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey dmer and things like
00:42:11
that cruelty to animals at a young age and he had the opposite of that well he may not have had these deadly desires
00:42:20
until later on in his life and probably I think he probably had some of this before that experimental stuff that
00:42:30
was going on at Harvard but I think that really pushed it further along it certainly didn't help the young man I'm
00:42:38
going to argue with you because there there's no sign of that and he was Avid with journaling and I don't think
00:42:44
there's any record of him having any homicidal thoughts until he got to Michigan which would have been years
00:42:52
after the experiment and he and he said three-year-long experiment which was done by Henry Murray at Harvard that it
00:43:03
was the worst experience of his life but he doesn't think that the experiment changed the outcome of Ted kazinsky life
00:43:11
or not right I don't think that it did I think he's absolutely right in saying that I'm saying I don't think it helped
00:43:17
if no it defin if he was having any kind of issues or problems before that this certainly would not have helped this
00:43:23
young man and many people have pointed out that look there were other people that were subjected to the same
00:43:30
experiment and they didn't go on to blow people up they didn't go on to 16 years
00:43:34
old that and that's what I'm pointing out that's different set of circumstances here he he's younger on on
00:43:40
all on every level imaginable emotional intellectually and developmentally you know and so on I
00:43:49
mean look I mean he just to go over his history a little bit you know he scores high on this IQ t test they skip him one
00:43:57
grade couple uh grades go by then they end up skipping him another grade uh he did some summer classes so then that's
00:44:05
how he got to Harvard at the age of 16 but your your family lives in Chicago and they're sending you across halfway
00:44:13
across the United States to go live by yourself and he just wasn't ready but again there is no record of any
00:44:21
homicidal thoughts or even I believe Suicidal Thoughts until after the experiment to me that is proof I mean
00:44:30
one of the things that you hear constantly when you're looking up Ted kazinski is that uh you know Harvard
00:44:38
isn't responsible for any of these actions and none of these deaths to be at a place at Harvard's door and I I
00:44:44
argue completely against that I mean a year after these experiments he is in Michigan talking to therapists about
00:44:55
homicidal thoughts I think it's direct correlation and again if if you had any evidence of it
00:45:02
beforehand then I would say maybe it didn't change the outcome of this kid's life but I I think the this experiment
00:45:09
was um you know and again it's also stated like as fact that this experiment was like MK Ultra and that's not true we
00:45:19
we don't know for certain what this everything that took place with inside this experiment so Ted himself is saying
00:45:27
that it didn't affect him or he doesn't think it affected him I think it did affect him and also what he's getting
00:45:36
wise to is how much information they have against him but how all that information is connected to the cabin so
00:45:45
now his thought is if I can get you know the information from the cabin thrown out then I could walk out
00:45:53
of here scotf free yeah he doesn't really get them to he doesn't trick them into presenting the evidence to him they
00:46:01
make the mistake of presenting the evidence to him because they want to get a confession from Ted kazinski because
00:46:09
they do not have that great of a case against this guy so they're really hoping to get him to sign on the dotted
00:46:16
line and confess to all of these attacks and the murders and you're right though he very
00:46:23
you mean they don't have a good case against him because they have thousands of pieces of evidence against them then
00:46:29
why are they going after a confession I understand that they they had lots of evidence against the guy
00:46:35
they wanted a confession from Ted kazinski well because there was no direct evidence to anything like the
00:46:43
actual bombs or anything there was no fingerprints on those bombs and so all they had was these these diagrams and
00:46:49
these these notes but that what I'm saying is they had thousands of pieces of those
00:46:57
correct but he very quickly realizes during the interrogation process that they are presenting their evidence to
00:47:04
him and yes he's going to flip it and use it against them and tell them you know you base your search warrant off of
00:47:12
linguistics that is that's just a word that's just a term that you kind of made up this is not something that has been
00:47:19
used in previous search warrants yeah it's like a pseudo science right so if you're going to use that if I can get
00:47:26
this search warrant tossed out then that evidence that you collected from my cabin from my shed will be tossed out as
00:47:34
well and then you have nothing yeah and I think also some of this is maybe not so much that he goes free I'm sure he
00:47:44
doesn't want to be caught or be put in prison but I also wonder how much of this uh attitude that he has about
00:47:52
this is trying to protect his belongings and his life work for the last several years yeah well some of that is built
00:48:01
into this because the natural defense here would be an insanity plea or an insanity defense right and the problem
00:48:11
with that is well if he avoids the death penalty and says hey I'm insane and that's my defense that we put together
00:48:21
well then what did any of this stand for it was supposed to be bill around this whole mission this whole agenda of
00:48:28
him in the freedom Club mhm well what does this Mission even mean if the man who put it together and orchestrated
00:48:34
everything is an insane person well normally when we have these ramblings that we see from these killers later
00:48:42
that's what they are they're unintelligible ramblings or or rants or or however you
00:48:50
want to look at it and I I'm I'm not saying that you should read this Manifesto and agree with with them but I
00:48:57
but I think what he is what he is saying is is also a little little unique in the
00:49:03
reason why is cuz most people say look technology is happening and you either have to jump on board or you don't and
00:49:10
he's making he's making the statement hey technology will happen but only if we allow it and maybe we need to pick
00:49:20
and choose what we allow as far as technology goes and so to your point I think Ted kazinski is really worried the
00:49:29
easy way out is go hey I was insane but then this Manifesto that I worked on for
00:49:35
years people just dismiss it as the ramblings of somebody that's insane and they're not even going to take the time
00:49:42
to read it yeah I would think that that was his one of his many concerns my my own personal opinion of his Manifesto of
00:49:51
that manuscript is it sounds like the you said un intellectual ramblings of a of a raving
00:50:00
madman this is the intellectual ramblings of a Madman it's yeah I think that's a good way to put it it's there's
00:50:09
certainly some Brilliance there again you can tell it was written by an intelligent entity maybe I'm a little a
00:50:17
skew in my thoughts and and uh comprehension and perception of the document itself because I know who wrote
00:50:25
wrote it where if you were looking at it blindly not knowing who or what group wrote it maybe you would think of it a
00:50:33
little differently but one thing that I think kind of torqued me off a lot when researching this case was
00:50:43
these morons online praising Ted kazinski for this manuscript and saying how brilliant the man is and how
00:50:53
brilliant the manuscript is and even to the point of people going you you guys are just ignorant you
00:51:00
can't see it one day you'll realize he was right he was right are you freaking kidding me well no he's not again I
00:51:10
think a lot of those individuals have to start the conversation with forget every
00:51:15
action that he did and then just look at this paper as a whole I think the the paper as a whole degrades most of us as
00:51:24
human beings it's that's what I question how many of these people posting their thoughts and
00:51:32
opinions in a and approval and Appraisal of this document actually bothered to read
00:51:39
it yeah but it degrades African-American people it spends a good majority of the
00:51:46
document talking about the over sociable people the the left people it's grouping
00:51:54
a whole bunch of batch of people together and then criticizing them and what in the end are we losing Ted we're
00:52:01
losing our freedoms what are our freedoms when you look at it we all are slaves to something at the very core of
00:52:09
our Essence and our being we all have to eat we all have to pay taxes these things that you might perceive us to be
00:52:17
slaves of in the future yes I get that that's a threat but Freedom really is of course
00:52:24
it's a physical thing but it's also it's also a state of mind my my version of Freedom might not
00:52:32
be the same as Ted kazinsky no I understand that but that it's a lot easier for us as Americans to
00:52:40
sit there and say that we are free um and you look at what's going on in China with like the Muslims and and
00:52:50
then basically in internment camps over there and ask them how free they are are
00:52:55
and how free that Society is so but he's attacking my society and he's condemning
00:53:01
my Society that's where I have a problem you know what Ted I want the freedom to
00:53:06
open up my mail without my hands being blown off no I understand that but I I I think what
00:53:14
they're I think sometimes when these authors are are saying look these are threats and these are things that the
00:53:23
that Society needs to wake up too and I think there's look there's a lot of times we were talking the other day I I
00:53:30
watched the Jake Paul fight it it was some of the lowest form of entertainment that I've seen in my whole lifetime it
00:53:40
was it's almost embarrassing and then you start wondering is this the way Society is going
00:53:47
and 1.5 million views one of the highest pay-per-view buyin for any boxing event
00:53:54
and and so I think he I think he's questioning society as a whole and and why are people spending so much time on
00:54:03
their computer or spending so much time in front of their TVs when there's maybe
00:54:08
more important stuff to be thinking about if that makes any sense no it makes a lot of sense I think what I what
00:54:15
I see here Captain is it looks to me like somebody who did he he did in fact have these ideas he did in fact have
00:54:23
these concerns but he used them as almost a rationalization for what it probably was that he ultimately wanted
00:54:34
to do he wanted to punish the society that didn't accept him he wanted to harm those who did not accept him he could
00:54:43
not well hold on and and here's the problem too is society did not reject him he actually rejected Society correct
00:54:51
correct I would argue on in your defense I would argue the people that are looking at this Manifesto and saying you
00:54:58
have to forget about the mergers well you shouldn't you can't and and that's not that's that's not part of the
00:55:04
equation you know Ted kazinski likes math part of the equation is that in order to get heard you decided to attack
00:55:14
other people's freedoms so in a sense you're a hypocrite on top of that you didn't
00:55:21
write this letter you used technology used a type wrer it might be a a small form of a of type of Technology but it
00:55:31
was Tech at the time it was Tech at the time and you bought a little more than an acre and then you started seeing real
00:55:40
estate being developed and and you you came up with this the again to attack innocent people that did nothing to you
00:55:49
I i' I'd feel totally different about Ted kazinski if he attacked Henry Murray that experimented on him for three years
00:55:59
but what happened to the kid that had empathy for the caged animals mhm what happened to that guy well and he chose
00:56:08
terrorism to as a platform for his message to teach the rest of us to educate the rest of us he was a freaking
00:56:16
teacher at a University at a well-respected university two of them two he had a platform yeah he had a
00:56:24
platform where he could teach everyone and you know what it makes me think of when when he was an active teacher and
00:56:30
all these other teachers out there and then compare compare that to the crazy man living in a cabin out in the middle
00:56:38
of Montana mhm it's like Martin Luther King Jr and James orol Reay you had two guys that had two
00:56:47
completely different sets of ideals they chose completely different methods in the way to deliver and
00:56:54
Express their thoughts and concerns to the public yeah and um but but here's where here's where I feel bad for Ted
00:57:06
kazinski is because I think a lot of times we start questioning with Ted Bundy with I mean look I mean it's you know
00:57:15
it's 420 uh Coline Adolf Hitler you start questioning the chicken or the egg are these people just born evil or were
00:57:28
they created to be evil and this is one case that I could say I lean towards the idea that Ted was
00:57:35
created to be evil like maybe they didn't know that that was going to be the side effect of the experiment but I
00:57:43
think that was the outcome of the experiment and that that's angers me because one I mean $50 million spent by
00:57:54
the FB bi $50 million of our our taxpayer money spent to try to catch this psycho how much money have we spent on
00:58:04
his trials and his appeals and and his incarceration and his communication with the outside
00:58:12
world how much have we spent on this guy and and and he might have been created by experiments at
00:58:20
Harvard and one thing that's really interesting too here captain you have the kazinski family his mother and his
00:58:27
brother who said yeah at some point in his you know when he's 16 17 18 years old we started to realize that there was
00:58:38
something wrong with Ted however we didn't fully understand what it was we kind of just chocked it up to oh he's an
00:58:46
oddball he's depressed he's a genius we can't really understand him yeah some people said that Ted was like a walking
00:58:55
computer that that some people don't even view him as human well he would say things that were very uncomfortable to
00:59:02
the people that were actually somewhat close to him as close as anybody could be to Ted kazinski a man with very few
00:59:09
friends if any at all but you know his brother and his mother said that he would say things that you could tell
00:59:16
were these were suicidal Expressions homicidal type of expressions and ultimately the Nathan R
00:59:26
lead that the FBI was looking for they never identified a Nathan R tied to Ted kazinski or any other real aspect of the
00:59:34
unibomber case itself in fact two there's two beliefs here of where that came from either that Ted kazinski
00:59:43
himself did that on purpose to throw them off or that it was simply something that happened in transit before the
00:59:53
letter got to the FBI I that somebody else wrote a note over top of this letter so that lead really never led to
01:00:01
anything in the end captain at trial there was a lot of weird and difficulties with his trial itself and I
01:00:08
don't want to go too far into it because it it looked to me like the court system
01:00:12
basically wanted to say you're crazy but not crazy enough um it seemed a little weird on the whole Insanity idea and of
01:00:23
course as we already pointed out Ted originally did not want he was insistent that he was not
01:00:29
insane that what he stood for meant something what what his actions were stood for something yeah and I don't
01:00:37
know how he heavily involved his brother was but I I do know that there was talks
01:00:42
with the FBI and his brother's lawyer about what would happen to Ted so I I I want to I wonder how much he uh helped
01:00:51
steer The Narrative even during the trial well what he what happened was Ted was trying to dismiss his attorneys very
01:01:00
late in the court proceedings and the the uh judge was pretty much like no you're not going to dismiss your
01:01:10
attorneys this late we've been dealing with this forever right and if we throw the them out now you get a chance to
01:01:17
start over your whole defense which could take a year or two we're dealing with this now you cannot dismiss your
01:01:24
attorneys and so ultimately Ted kazinski ends up pleading uh giving the insanity
01:01:30
plea to avoid the death penalty so he ends up being he ends up receiving several life sentences to be served out
01:01:39
at the adx Florence which is a United States Penitentiary administrative maximum facility this is an American
01:01:49
federal prison in Fremont County near Florence Colorado it is operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons so this is
01:01:57
different than regular prisons here Captain this is uh a division of the United States Department of Justice
01:02:05
operates this prison this prison opened up in 1994 and is classified as a supermax or a control unit prison this
01:02:16
meaning that it provides a higher more controlled level of custody than even a Maximum Security Prison and if you look
01:02:24
at the list of some of the other inmates that are serving their time there as well as Ted kazinski it's some of the
01:02:34
biggest names out there it's a lot of terrorist to be honest with you it's a lot of foreign terrorist and domestic
01:02:40
terrorists that have been housed in there throughout the years as well as people who have committed crimes of
01:02:46
Espionage well but at the end of the day no no matter how smart Ted kazinski is I
01:02:53
mean that's what he is is a American domestic terrorist and one of Ted's Journal passages dated sometime between
01:03:00
the Autumn of 1977 and early 1978 when the bombing campaign was just beginning and Ted kazinski was still an amateur
01:03:09
bomb Builder remember he's trying to become a better bomb maker a more deadly attacker he wrote to himself quote I
01:03:18
emphasize that my motivation is personal Revenge I don't pretend any kind of philosophical or moral istic
01:03:25
justification my ambition is to kill a scientist big businessman government official or the like I would also like
01:03:33
to kill a communist Ted kazinski wrote In 1980 that the bombings made him feel less angry quote since committing these
01:03:42
crimes reported elsewhere in my notes I feel better I am still plenty angry you have to understand the blank remember
01:03:51
these are coming from some coded journals you have to understand the blank is that
01:03:57
I am now able to blank to a degree and when his bombings were not lethal when they were when they did not kill or they
01:04:07
did not significantly injure the individual who opened up the bomb he said that they were not a success that
01:04:14
that bomb was a failure he was hoping that every bomb would blow off hands or kill the person that opened up the
01:04:22
package the only way for his work to be quote successful as Ted kazinski saw it was to kill the person that opened up
01:04:32
the package in July of 1999 this is an interview article by David Bowman on salon.com the article is titled profiler
01:04:42
and it's an interview with John Douglas Bowman asked Douglas a follow-up to a follow-up question Bowman was asking
01:04:49
about psycho killers in general and then asking has their ever been this kind of
01:04:56
killer that are a do good killer angels of Justice Dexter types specifically have there been any
01:05:05
environmentalist psycho Killers who kill loggers or strip Miners and Douglas gives his answer Theodore kazinski the
01:05:13
unibomber thought he was doing that but when I started analyzing the case Douglas said forget his hatred of
01:05:22
Technology he don't give a [ __ ] he just wants to kill he enjoys killing and wants to dominate and control there's
01:05:30
the Oklahoma bombing that gets the front page two or three days later we have a professor killed on the East Coast
01:05:38
that's kazinski saying quote I'm the big guy here who's this Oklahoma City bomber
01:05:58
thank you friends for joining us here back in the garage for another gripping interesting story Colonel do we have any
01:06:06
recommended reading this week this week we are recommending every last tie the story of the unibomber and his family by
01:06:13
David kazinski in August 1995 David kazinsky wife Linda asked him a very difficult question do you think your
01:06:22
brother Ted is the unibomber he couldn't be David thought but as the couple poured over the Unabomber's 78 page
01:06:30
Manifesto David couldn't rule out the possibility it slowly became clear to them that Ted was likely responsible for
01:06:37
mailing the 17 bombs that killed three people and injured many more wanting to prevent further violence David made the
01:06:45
agonizing decision to turn his brother in to the FBI make sure you check out every last Tie by David kazin you can
01:06:54
find that title and many more on our recommended page at true Crim garage.com and until next week be good be kind and
01:07:02
don't [Music] litter [Music] Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I
01:07:43
thought it was an Eco move few your worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iconic
01:07:51
must be a tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare upfront prices book a service
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instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us so much more than
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