00:00:12
thank you [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] thank you foreign garage wherever you are whatever you're
00:00:43
doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always as a man that
00:00:47
would like to remind us all that the American dream is alive and well here is the captain that's America spelled with
00:00:54
a capital M it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend
00:01:02
[Music] you hear that sound and you know that I'm pouring a beer you'll want to pour
00:01:10
this one in a glass my friends and enjoy the beautiful amber color of bulldog Amber ale by the good folks over half
00:01:17
pints Brewing Company the soft underlying hop bitterness in this beer is tempered with the flowery Aroma of
00:01:24
the UK Golding hop and I dig the Nutty caramel malt flavor with this one garage grade three and a half bottle caps out
00:01:33
of five and here's some praise and thank you to our friends for helping us out with this week's beer run first up a big
00:01:38
cheers to our friend Lisa Baird and Unadilla New York and a big we like your jib goes out to Melissa B in Graham
00:01:46
North Carolina go to truecrime garage.com there's a little donate button on there you can leave us a tip
00:01:53
for some beer money and that will help us fill up the fridge everyone we mention that's what they did and that's
00:01:59
why we are thanking them we don't just shake this beer money and fill up our faces with beer I mean we do that but we
00:02:05
also donate to good organizations like project porch light and don't forget about Nick Mech the national Center for
00:02:13
missing and exploited children as well you're not only supporting the garage but you're supporting other great causes
00:02:19
so make sure you do that b double p double r u n beer run and make sure you go to our website and sign up on our
00:02:28
mailing list so you're in the know about other projects we're working on in Colonel that's enough for business all
00:02:35
right everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
00:02:40
[Music] after the body of 15 year old Carrie Brown was found a brief press release
00:02:57
was issued that read Thompson Detachment located the body of 15 year old Carrie Brown of Thompson at 2 pm October 18
00:03:06
1986. the body was located in a wooded area on the outskirts of Thompson Miss Brown was reported missing by her
00:03:15
parents on October 17 1986. Foul Play is suspected and an investigation is continuing okay yesterday Captain you
00:03:24
had inquired about the location of where they found Carrie's body as we have already covered Carrie's friends all
00:03:32
recall the town of Thompson to be safe and friendly it was nothing for girls to walk at
00:03:39
night not alone but no one question whether teens should be out at night it was a safe place in 1986 and Carrie as a
00:03:48
rule didn't walk much of anywhere alone as we talked about in yesterday's trailer a Map was published by the
00:03:56
Canadian crime pedia that shows all of the points of interest in our case so we have Doug's house where the party was
00:04:05
which is right on the Northwestern edge of Thompson then we have Nicole's house which is nearby and by most accounts
00:04:13
I'm being told that this is about a two to three minute walk from Doug's to Nicole's house
00:04:20
the location where Kerry was found was not all that far away either but was considered to be on the far outskirts of
00:04:28
town it was off of mystery Lake Road which was sort of a main drag within Thompson but which turned into a
00:04:36
two-lane Rural Road outside the city limits Carrie Brown was found about one and a half kilometers north of the
00:04:47
city the horse stables where Donna and Joanne kept their horses was very nearby of
00:04:54
course and Kerry was found on a dirt horse riding Trail across mystery Lake Road from Thompson Golf Club all of the
00:05:03
Articles say that she was near the hydro line which is the Canadian power company's electrical easement and down a
00:05:13
dead end Road it's a place one would almost certainly have to be local to know this spot to know this area and one
00:05:23
could only get there by car that's interesting to our story and of interest to our investigation because there were
00:05:31
fresh tire tracks that were visible at the scene on going back to what her friend says Nicole leaves the party she
00:05:39
sees footprints that lead down to some tire tracks well and the interesting thing here too about this location where
00:05:45
Carrie is eventually found is it from my understanding this is kind of a like a local teen hangout spot
00:05:54
so in fact that same evening the night that led up to Kerry going missing and then
00:06:01
we later find out she was killed that night that same evening Trevor and his friends were actually debating where to
00:06:08
go to meet up to drink beer and that was one of the spots that they considered hanging out at near those horse stables
00:06:15
so that really Echoes that idea that this is sort of a a teen hangout area well and think about that Carrie's
00:06:24
leaving this party some older teen says maybe it's one maybe it's two individuals maybe it's
00:06:31
even more hey we're going to go you know just a block away or so and and have a couple drinks there you want to join us
00:06:38
and maybe she says yes again like I said it wasn't a huge party so we should be able to almost identify every individual
00:06:47
that was at the party or around the party but also we we talked about teenagers walking and and droves to this
00:06:58
party so is it POS it should be very possible for us to identify every vehicle there that was there that night
00:07:06
exactly and just staying with the idea of honing in on this area where her body was recovered from
00:07:15
looking through my notes here it says that the spot the reason why teenagers would
00:07:20
hang out there was that this spot was close to town but it was also remote enough that there
00:07:28
was little chance of being caught out there or found by your parents or discovered by nosy adults so kids would
00:07:36
hang out there and drink and party but as we know somehow Carrie Brown 15 years old ended up there dead it's very
00:07:46
shocking to me that there wasn't more rumors swirling around in this case because it was
00:07:56
starts off you know the events start off at a high school party well we did discuss the rumor that Carrie was found
00:08:04
nude that was a and it's not correct we just we discussed what she was wearing when her body was recovered
00:08:12
that was just one of the rumors I'm guessing but that's the one that was a strong enough rumor or repeated enough
00:08:18
times that it made it all it made its way all the way to us here over 30 years later
00:08:24
regarding the investigation you're exactly right Captain like this this is a rather large investigation in part
00:08:34
that you're interviewing so many teenagers and so many people that were at that party that had come and go throughout
00:08:41
the night people that she went to school with acquaintances things like that the case
00:08:46
File is is large is rather large in this because of the night in question now speaking of the investigation
00:08:57
in the beginning we have three lead investigators that will be working the case so it's it's three lead
00:09:03
investigators from the RCMP this was Constable's Pat Cahill Maggie Gregory and polygraph and forensic examiner John
00:09:14
tost I'm guessing because of a lot of the stuff that you're you are saying here captain and
00:09:21
how this crime and how The Disappearance is all described my guess would be that
00:09:27
when this team was assembled to head up the investigation the murder investigation that these three probably
00:09:34
thought that this would be a pretty open and shut case that they would be locking
00:09:39
in on a suspect quickly and find evidence to back that up well yeah like we said there was a decent amount
00:09:48
of kids at this party if you're law enforcement you're thinking somebody heard something
00:09:54
saw something or knows something you would think so and that's exactly where they start their investigation they're
00:10:00
going to round up everybody that was at that party that night they're going to question them they're going to go
00:10:06
through Carrie's home and Carrie's bedroom they I guess she had her own phone and answering machine in her room
00:10:13
so They confiscated that so they could review the answering machine and the phone they were looking into Carrie's
00:10:20
family her friends her acquaintances her teachers really all the usual stuff that
00:10:25
you would expect the thing here though is Carrie has no enemies nobody could think of anybody that would want to do
00:10:33
something terrible or to harm Carrie and then on top of that even with all these
00:10:38
people that they talk to there's no one that seems to have any clue as to what happened outside of
00:10:44
Doug's house that night and you were saying that Doug's mother was there but sometimes when there's these
00:10:51
get-togethers that other parents will stop by just to keep the parent The Chaperone company do we know of any
00:11:00
other parents stopped by to hang out with Doug's mom because Doug's mom seemed to be upstairs the whole time
00:11:07
maybe somebody would have an adult would have seen some from my understanding and
00:11:11
as it's reported his mother sounds like she was the only adult well we say only adult but some of the kids themselves
00:11:19
were adults because there were 18 year olds at this this Gathering as well let's dive into the information that we
00:11:29
know about the crime scene there's a good amount of information and a good amount of evidence that's going to be
00:11:35
found at this crime scene or the murder scene so the police they gathered up all these
00:11:43
bloody branches which had sharp snapped off ends that were used to beat Carrie to death
00:11:49
so they have their murder weapon or weapons as it were in this case they have blood all over the ground
00:11:58
under Carrie's body as well so this led to the logical conclusion that Carrie had been killed where she was found but
00:12:06
the lack of mud on her clothing led to another conclusion that she was almost certainly raped elsewhere perhaps in a
00:12:16
vehicle now we know that the people that found her body described this area as as
00:12:22
a muddy area they're thinking that the lack of mud on her clothing means that the sexual assault took place
00:12:30
at a different location and that she was then brought to the spot where she was killed with these branches and the that
00:12:38
makes a lot of sense based off of the blood evidence but also the branch evidence as well there were some other
00:12:44
weird things found at this uh crime scene that could be or could not be of evidentiary value here to our
00:12:53
investigators so there was an air mattress and there was also a rubber car mat that were found on the muddy ground
00:13:01
this from the Thompson citizen website it says a vehicle got stuck in the mud there and a blue and red air mattress
00:13:08
and a black rubber floor mat were used to try and gain traction and extricate the vehicle the air mattress had
00:13:18
branches shoved under one end which police believed were used behind the stuck tires to increase traction of
00:13:26
course the finding of a rubber floor mat seems like it would be a crucial clue right that might help you
00:13:35
help one to lock in on the make and model of the car that was stuck in the mud yeah that's a good point and that
00:13:42
air mattress surely that could be connected to somebody definitely this is one of those things where you wish that
00:13:48
show these things to the public and ask the public for help if you don't know something ask anybody do you know
00:13:54
somebody air mattress do you know somebody that had an air mattress like this previously but after the murder
00:14:00
they no longer have one well the other problem though too is like you said this is a local hangout for teens
00:14:07
and how many times have you been hanging out with one of your buddies and their dumb ass gets stuck and you have to push
00:14:14
or again throw stuff under the tire to try to get traction this could have nothing to do with the
00:14:21
actual crime you're exactly right it's it's one of those situations where it may have nothing to do with the crime or
00:14:26
it may have everything to do with the crime I can see I could see someone going up there in the dark unaware that
00:14:36
that it's muddy and that they might get stuck so that's certainly a possibility but so
00:14:42
but what a boner the the crime scene it it has a decent amount of of possible evidence here right right so
00:14:51
we talked about the floor mat we talked about the air mattress but police also lifted some distinct shoe prints from
00:14:58
that mud now photos have not been released publicly again I don't know why we release things
00:15:06
to the public and ask for help but the someone knows something podcast reported that there is one very clear
00:15:14
print that looks as though the wearer of the shoe was pushing a vehicle and they
00:15:21
say this is because the toe impression is very strong with no heel Mark they believe that it's an Adidas basketball
00:15:31
shoe Adidas the thing here that that I find of interest to Captain when we review things like this and statements
00:15:37
like this that are coming from a crime scene I hear that that people of expert level would consider this to
00:15:47
give off the idea that somebody was pushing a vehicle whoever was wearing the shoe might have
00:15:53
been pushing a vehicle trying to get it unstuck doesn't it make you think that probably
00:15:58
two people were there like usually isn't somebody Manning the the steering wheel
00:16:05
while somebody else is pushing the vehicle from behind yeah and I don't know if you know this I couldn't find
00:16:11
this information we said there's several branches that look like weapons that they used to beat carry do we know how
00:16:20
many branches there were I don't know how many branches they were there were and unfortunately the RCMP has never
00:16:26
released photos of any of the items that we've discussed the the mattress the rubber
00:16:33
floor mat or the shoe prints so and in some ways they won't even confirm whether they believe that these items
00:16:44
are related or not to the crime well and also local teen Hangout I know I'm going to keep hitting on this
00:16:53
point but if it was me and my friends and we know what happened that night I wouldn't suspect one of my friends to
00:17:03
come forward even if we had nothing to do with the murders I I could see 16 17 18 year old that's like I don't want to
00:17:12
come forward I don't want to be questioned you would probably be scared to death to go to law enforcement and
00:17:19
say that's my air mattress or that's my shoe print but we had nothing to do with
00:17:24
those murders so like I was saying before we have so many people at this party coming and going
00:17:31
should have a witness and we and we do have a witness so what do they know what do they see
00:17:37
yeah this is very important we have a possible eyewitness here and police find a person who says that they saw two
00:17:45
vehicles leaving that area the area where Carrie's body was found leaving that area that night they were were
00:17:54
reportedly seen on the only Road that goes into that area so it makes sense that maybe they could be connected
00:18:04
to this crime the witness says that these vehicles he saw two vehicles and this would have been around midnight
00:18:12
which is somewhat interesting based off of the time of death as well as reported by
00:18:19
police now it's totally unclear how reliable this sighting was because the witness Sean Simmons
00:18:29
claimed both cars had their lights off when he saw them so depending captain on how dark it was out his identification
00:18:37
of the vehicles and the one driver that he reports could be doubtful but anyway what he says is that one car he saw was
00:18:46
a 70s era green muscle car and the other vehicle was a white van and Simmons passenger
00:18:56
Larry Leeper also saw the cars so we have a second individual saying that he saw these
00:19:04
vehicles as well Apparently one of the witnesses described the muscle car as two-tone and
00:19:11
the other one says that it was a solid color so we do have some discrepancy in there
00:19:17
in their eyewitness statements but Simmons our main guy here tells the police that he got a good look at the
00:19:25
driver of the muscle car do we have his description of that well we might even have his name so this is really weird
00:19:33
because police they they hear the description of the vehicle and they're like yeah we know somebody in town that
00:19:38
drives a car like that and it's a uh a guy named Patrick Sumner who was 22 years old at the time now it's unclear
00:19:47
to me Captain how Sumner was identified whether Simmons already knew him or whether police
00:19:56
showed him a photo array and he picked them out but Simmons told the CBC later that he's saying that he was 90 sure
00:20:07
that it was Sumner that he saw out there that night this Patrick Sumner guy so he's not denying that he saw
00:20:14
the eyewitness oh no no no sorry no he's he's saying that he's 90 sure that Patrick Sumner is
00:20:21
the same guy he saw there yeah small town unique car hard to hide but again you have to go
00:20:29
back to the idea that this is a hangout for local teens and is it possible that there was people hanging out
00:20:35
the night before the murder took place that have nothing to do with the crime well and this looks like they're going
00:20:43
to solve the crime Captain because they they go and find this Patrick Sumner guy within just days of the
00:20:50
murder he's now their prime suspect in the case they interview him he has no attorney present he swears up and down I
00:20:59
have nothing to do with Carrie's murder I I'm unclear whether he even knew her at all there's nothing to suggest that
00:21:07
he even knew who Carrie was but they go ahead and they charge him anyway you know how these high school parties were
00:21:15
you'd have some 15 16 I attended one yesterday yeah well see you'd be in the group of people that I hated at the high
00:21:25
school party at yesterday's high school party I brought my motorcycle and I jumped a shark and
00:21:31
um I'm now like a local hero just so everybody knows well I always thought it was strange
00:21:37
and not to give ourselves away but one of our buddies grandma would go on vacation and we'd have parties at our
00:21:45
house without any parents knowing but I remember sometimes there being guys and girls in their early 20s at the
00:21:55
party and I always thought what kind of loser are you to show up you have nothing better to do
00:22:02
than to go hang out with a bunch of high schoolers and a high school party but this is going to bring us to a three-day
00:22:09
trial well what it is is it's actually a preliminary hearing because what they need to do is they're still in the
00:22:17
process of even seeing if there's enough evidence to take this thing to trial remember he's denying that he has any
00:22:25
involvement at all and they decide to charge him anyway so now we got to get a judge to sort this
00:22:30
out to see if it's going to go to trial so the evidence that the RCMP gathered and presented against Patrick Sumner at
00:22:40
this three-day preliminary hearing was as follows a spot on the interior light of summoner's car appeared to be blood
00:22:49
item number two was blood stains were found on a t-shirt taken from a hamper in the Sumner home so his home was
00:22:56
searched and they obviously seized a few items 12 hairs consistent with Carrie's hair
00:23:03
were in Sumner's car on the seat and a witness testified that Sumner was washing his car the following day after
00:23:11
the murder this was a local body shop owner and a used car salesman Raleigh Becker who could see the dump so
00:23:21
this is going to sound very much like Steven Avery making a murderer Sumner lived at the town dump the the family's
00:23:30
property was the the town dump and this I'm sure he had a great High School experience living at the dump well in
00:23:38
this used car salesman said that you know I can see the property from my business
00:23:45
where I work and and that is how I saw him washing his vehicle the following day now by the time we get to this
00:23:52
three-day preliminary hearing Sumner has an attorney his attorney did a really good job making the court
00:23:59
question whether there was any type of sufficient evidentiary connection between Sumner and the actual killing
00:24:06
let's kind of combat some of that evidence if you will so the RCMP Constable John tost assumed that the
00:24:14
stains on his mirror on Sumner's vehicle's mirror were blood but they conduct tests lab tests and it was
00:24:22
determined that the stains were not blood we're not sure what the the material actually was Sumner did say
00:24:30
that he believed it was tomato juice it doesn't really matter what it was because it wasn't blood stranger would
00:24:37
be tomato juice I'd actually lean towards maybe the idea that'd be transmission fluid something that would
00:24:42
be a darker red color these small blood stains on the T-shirt oh this is I'm going to apologize in advance because
00:24:50
it's going to get gross here for the next minute these small blood stains on the T-shirt were the same type as
00:24:56
carries but the shirt belonged to Sumner's father so they find this item when they're searching the home right and
00:25:04
they're like oh look this appears to be blood on a t-shirt we better confiscate this well very quickly they learn this
00:25:13
shirt does not belong to our suspect just somebody else that lives in the home his father yeah but if sometimes
00:25:19
you take your father's clothes and wear them right it was possible he would have
00:25:24
access Sumner would have access to be wearing this shirt so here becomes the problem for their evidence with this
00:25:33
shirt yes the blood found on this t-shirt was the same blood type as Carrie's that doesn't mean that it is
00:25:40
Carrie's blood it's just the same blood type so it's possible that it was Carrie's blood on this shirt if that's
00:25:46
if that's going to be the case that's a big problem for this Patrick Sumner suspect however
00:25:53
keep in mind he's saying that shirt belongs to my father and the blood stains the father says were from zits on his
00:26:02
dad's back that's the gross part that we got to oh that's uh delicious so the delicious
00:26:10
treats now this this episode is sponsored by Dr pimple popper wash your back people
00:26:16
um the the blood that was found on the shirt was also consistent with the father's blood with Patrick Sumner's
00:26:24
father's blood so so the story makes the story makes sense it could be his his father's blood again
00:26:31
it's the same blood type so then the the other problem but the other problem here
00:26:36
is Patrick Sumner would have access to that shirt but his father would have access to his son's car yes he would so
00:26:43
he's not seen it they both become no which I understand but what I'm saying is as far as the defense goes you
00:26:50
can start bringing up the fact that you can make a case that is not Patrick but the father now what about these hair
00:26:56
well samples that they found in in Patrick's car as we know now in 1986 it was thought of differently but as we
00:27:04
know now hair analysis is not exact the science on it is not exact so all you can do is is compare two hairs and go
00:27:13
yeah they're similar you can't say that they came from the same person there's unless you're extracting DNA from those
00:27:19
hairs and comparing it that's the only way that you can determine that it came from your the victim so the the hairs
00:27:27
that were found in his car they just simply cannot be 100 linked to carry now we don't have the Smoking Gun
00:27:35
yet against Patrick but we have evidence building we'll get more into that after
00:27:41
this quick beer break [Music] [Music] all right we are back cheers mates make sure you are following us on
00:28:17
Facebook and Twitter and Instagram at True Crime garage cheers cheers to you Colonel and then the item of Sumner
00:28:28
washing his car I mean that's one of those things that I always kind of laugh at because some people will say that's
00:28:33
evidence that somebody's trying to cover up a crime others say look it's just a guy washing his car Sumner does give a
00:28:41
statement at the hearing regarding washing his car he says that there's a couple problems with the polices
00:28:50
timeline here he says first of all I'm a mechanic and I was in school all day on
00:28:56
Friday so I was not washing my car on Friday the day after she was killed I was washing my car on Saturday and I was
00:29:03
washing my car on Saturday because I like to keep a clean car and he also points out he goes he goes above and
00:29:12
beyond here and points out he's like look if I was trying to hide something I wouldn't be washing my car at a location
00:29:19
or in a place where many people could see me not just this one witness right well and and Patrick's defense here we
00:29:29
said that it snowed so at some point they're going to put salt down on the road and a lot of people want to make
00:29:35
sure especially with these old type muscle cars that you want to get that salt off your car so it doesn't rust
00:29:42
down the long and short of it is that the crown did not present any other evidence against Sumner that we know of
00:29:49
we know that the judge dismissed the Crown's case this takes place in February of 1987.
00:29:59
saying that they're the circumstantial evidence against Sumner was misinterpreted by the RCMP
00:30:06
and that the judge decided that there was actually insufficient evidence to keep
00:30:13
Patrick Sumner over for a trial now one thing that's difficult on our end here Captain as we try to report this the
00:30:21
best that we can to everyone the transcripts from this preliminary hearing have never been released so we
00:30:31
we can't say if there was any other evidence against Sumner or anything else that really got him off
00:30:39
completely because we just don't have that information has not been made public I would have loved to be a fly on
00:30:46
the wall during that trial and fly on the wall during the conversations between Patrick and his lawyer but now
00:30:53
that was all taken place in 87. like you said she was raped we should be able to test
00:31:01
the seamen the DNA of that scene well so in the end Sumner spent four and a half
00:31:07
months in jail before this preliminary hearing took place waiting to see if he would be
00:31:13
tried and of course after they determined that there's going to be no trial he's released he says that he
00:31:19
still suffers from PTSD to this day from being wrongfully accused well that's a lot of time to spend in jail if he if he
00:31:28
is innocent that is a long time to spend in jail for a three-day preliminary hearing well
00:31:35
let's jump to this because you asked a brilliant question here and and knowing the details of the attack and knowing uh
00:31:43
what the victim in in the crime scene in the crime itself you ask a great question do we have any type of DNA so
00:31:54
Sumner is released and really all that is is like hey you know there's still some people that were suspicious of
00:32:00
Sumner even after he's released and the judge says there's not enough evidence here for a trial obviously but
00:32:07
nothing really happens in the case for a long period of time now the the police themselves they try to ramp up the
00:32:16
Public's interest in the case and and revisit media attention to the case on the five-year anniversary of the
00:32:23
unsolved murder but nothing really happens until almost 10 years or a little more than 10 years later
00:32:30
this is in 1997 when just like the band one of my favorite bands clutch says we got big news this is when the Winnipeg
00:32:39
Sun reported on June 7th 1997 that evidence from the scene has been stored over the years a recent
00:32:48
breakthrough with DNA testing has put the case back on the front burner results from an Ottawa lab show at least
00:32:56
two males are responsible so there's DNA in the case we sit here all these years later and we still do
00:33:05
not know the source it could have been from blood it could have been from semen it could have been from Material under
00:33:11
carries Nails touch DNA touch DNA on items found at the scene we just don't know where they got this DNA
00:33:19
from we can speculate I don't think we need to we know some details about the attack but the the key is here that they
00:33:26
have DNA this is what will solve this case or should solve the case soon and hopefully it's solving the case soon
00:33:35
now what we can report is that Patrick Sumner who spent four and a half months in jail awaiting a
00:33:42
trial for the murder that he was accused of for the murder of Carrie Brown and then later released that DNA does not
00:33:49
match Patrick Sumner so they've been able to test the DNA it doesn't match him but look again I feel bad for him
00:33:55
but he was identified by eyewitnesses he was at least in that area the night of the cry I guess I I don't know how he
00:34:07
was identified right like that's the thing that always kind of puzzled me with this part of the story it's like
00:34:13
well it turns out not to be him he could have been in the scene at the scene or near the scene but
00:34:19
he says he wasn't and so and then the DNA kind of backs up that he didn't well not kind of it does back up that he's
00:34:26
not the Killer and in this case one of the two killers but so he has really no reason to lie
00:34:34
for not being in the area as he said so I've always kind of wondered like is he just
00:34:40
like this dude that the police knew and they say to the witness like yeah we think we know who owns that car and
00:34:47
rather than showing him a photo lineup dude they just show a photo and say was this the guy and he's like yeah it looks
00:34:53
like the guy it wouldn't be the first time that that situation happened law enforcement does a lot of wrong things
00:34:59
but sometimes that's because they're human could you imagine going to this crime scene seeing this 15 year old girl
00:35:05
beaten badly beaten and knowing that she was raped and then once you get the test
00:35:11
results she's raped by multiple people now I want to throw out something there for you is because of this again we
00:35:18
don't know how many branches but it is possible that there's more than two attackers just because we have seamen
00:35:27
from two individuals this could have been a situation where there was a gang well again we don't
00:35:32
know where the the source of the DNA but that's what I'm saying is like just because we only have two sources doesn't
00:35:39
mean that there was only two people involved I would say the more people involved the more likely that you're
00:35:45
going to have somebody speaking or there's going to be more rumors or maybe more people that uh didn't have a solid
00:35:53
Alibi for the night and then we're going on 30 something well and a little follow-up to the
00:36:01
information that came out in 97 about them having DNA in the case and that their words are results from an Ottawa
00:36:08
lab show at least two males are responsible so that that's their words right and we can only go off of off of
00:36:15
that statement but a little follow-up to that this comes from the Thompson Citizen
00:36:21
newspaper and it says crime scene DNA samples gathered in 1986 came from at least two different men DNA science was
00:36:30
in its infancy in 1986 so much of the DNA evidence was re-examined and re-analyzed in the 90s
00:36:38
new DNA samples searching for matches have been taken most voluntarily some pursuant to court orders what they're
00:36:47
saying here Captain is that they either got a court order or people volunteer voluntarily let them take their DNA this
00:36:56
was from more than 100 people so they've compared this to more than 100 people and they've not found a match for either
00:37:03
of the samples that were found at our crime scene but you think they'd run this through the system to see if
00:37:09
there's somebody in jail that matches this DNA I I'm guessing that their laws are a little different than ours but you
00:37:18
have to be hopeful that this case will be solved and it'll be solved by technology well and whatever that they
00:37:23
can do I think it's safe to say that they have done I mean they're they wouldn't be out
00:37:29
there getting court orders for people to test and compare DNA if they're not already checked into whatever databases
00:37:36
that are available to them at the time and then like here I know that with when they check code is here
00:37:44
that CODIS is is checked again in the state of Ohio every 30 days this is very similar to like the JonBenet Ramsey case
00:37:52
in the sense that you have a lead detective on that case that has a list of individuals that he thinks are
00:38:00
responsible now they have a task force that is had headed up by jonbenet's Brother half-brother
00:38:10
and like you said some of the individuals are volunteering their DNA willingly and others they're getting it
00:38:18
through court order or tactics like all the guy was smoking and we collected some of his cigarettes
00:38:26
so I think this case will be solved it'll just take time because you know with all your work with project
00:38:36
porchlight that these tests are not you don't get there it's not like a coveted test you're not getting a result
00:38:44
back in within a minute correct and just because you get DNA doesn't mean that you're ever going to find
00:38:51
a link to who it belongs to I mean there are many many situations where a person
00:38:58
or persons are not in any database out there so well a lot of people talk and and I don't know if you know this
00:39:06
but I was reading about just some familial DNA test that can range from you know five
00:39:16
thousand to twenty thousand dollars so it's these law enforcement agencies have budgets they can only do so much
00:39:25
one article that was really interesting to me here and this is honing in on a what I would deem to be a drastic step
00:39:34
that was taken by the RCMP they mailed out letters to every resident that lives in Thompson as we
00:39:42
said that's like 12 000 people and they're asking for information information specifically about Carrie
00:39:49
Brown's case a Thompson Citizen newspaper article from 2011 addressed some of the rumors surrounding
00:39:59
what police were asking of the residents what information they were seeking it states that several witnesses reported
00:40:06
seeing Carrie getting into a van between 10 30 p.m and 11 P.M others say or others believe that she
00:40:15
took a taxi and then there's other people that say that she may have walked somewhere by herself from the party at
00:40:22
Doug's house so they're asking people hey residents of Thompson do you know anything did you see a van did you see
00:40:31
somebody in a van did you talk to somebody that has a story about a van and maybe Carrie or an unnamed girl did
00:40:38
you do you have you heard any stories about a taxi cab or did anybody see anybody walking from that party
00:40:45
that's I mean I cannot think of a situation or a crime taking place here where every resident every home is
00:40:54
mailed a letter asking for information but I'm hopeful again at least two individuals
00:41:02
and one of those individuals could be listening right now this case will get solved Carrie and her
00:41:10
family will get Justice so sleep tight well like we said here Captain a lot of work has been done in
00:41:19
this case and it's a decades-old case several decades old case and to back up some of that statement we have a CBC
00:41:28
article by Bryce Hoy that addressed the huge case File so a lot of work has been
00:41:34
done and it's reported that at one time it was considered to be the largest unsolved Cold Case file in Manitoba so
00:41:43
it's 45 Banker boxes that hold 14 000 or more documents and details about 2 500 Witnesses this would be people
00:41:57
that they spoke to Witnesses friends suspects uh and even investigators that were involved over the years one thing
00:42:05
that's key here with it with an investigation this large and a paper trail this large
00:42:11
and now we're talking about two perpetrators and I believe the words were at least two males so that as you
00:42:18
pointed out earlier could mean even a higher number than two but what's interesting here in almost bizarre
00:42:26
because you don't see this typically in these types of crimes is it whoever did this or the person's
00:42:33
responsible for this seemed to have been remarkably good at keeping his mouth shut or their mouth shut yeah
00:42:41
and with the evidence like you said they have think about the FBI shows you've watched with those those Banker boxes
00:42:49
what did you say 45 of them correct that is a ton of information it's very likely that law enforcement has entered
00:42:57
interviewed one if not all parties responsible for this murder and then circling back to something that you had
00:43:05
talked about and touched on briefly there captain we need to make sure we point out this
00:43:10
there there was a very crucial line and a news story that came out not terribly long ago about this case this said that
00:43:17
the RCMP have stated have said that they sent the DNA extracted from the crime scene evidence
00:43:27
to a private lab in the United States and the another lab is conducting the genetic genealogy portion of the process
00:43:36
to build the family tree of whoever the DNA belongs to or in this case it might be two family trees what's weird is that
00:43:46
is in a news article however we've talked about how tight-lipped the police have been in this case and Carrie
00:43:53
Brown's still unsolved murder but the RCMP will not address this at all so we don't have the confirmation from the
00:44:01
RCMP that that is what is actually taking place it's not clear to me how the newspaper
00:44:08
the Thompson citizen came to this information that is what they have reported so I'm hoping and I know
00:44:17
you are hoping as well captain that this is accurate information yeah definitely
00:44:21
it'd be a huge step in the right direction one thing that is unfortunate is that the town of Thompson has had a
00:44:28
significant uptick in crime since Carrie Brown was killed back in 1986 a 2021 news article on
00:44:39
thompsoncitizen.net by a local journalism initiative reporter Dave Baxter he reported that quote over the
00:44:48
last few decades the city of Thompson has also become known for things far more Sinister crime violence and murder
00:44:55
cases that have never been solved the city has consistently ranked among the top communities in all of Canada for
00:45:03
rates of violent crime per capita the city's mayor Colleen smook who has lived in Thompson for 43 years
00:45:13
said it bothers her and others in town that the community has become known for less than desirable reasons but she
00:45:21
also says there is more to those statistics saying our crime numbers are high because they are based on a
00:45:29
community of 13 500 people while we are a hub for 55 000 people and she goes on to say when we look at the stats of
00:45:39
actual crimes committed most offenses are committed and happen to persons without a Thompson address
00:45:49
so that really is the Crux of this case in my opinion the consensus seems to be that Kerry's case is different from
00:45:56
those committed by Drifters who pass through town most people in this case seem to think
00:46:03
that Carrie likely got into a car with probably somebody she trusted and probably more than one person
00:46:11
and then she's found by the horse stables in this out of the way area by the horse stables known to locals
00:46:20
her family says that Carrie had a major phobia of bridges and would refuse to cross them unless she
00:46:30
was with someone who could comfort her and I guess at one point in her lifetime this phobia of bridges was so bad that
00:46:40
when her family car would approach a bridge she would get down on get down low in the vehicle almost to
00:46:51
like not see going over the bridge and what's interesting here is someone had to drive her across a large bridge on
00:46:58
mystery Lake Road over the burnt Wood River to get her to where her body was eventually found and right all of the
00:47:08
information or the evidence that we're seeing at that crime scene is telling us that she very likely was killed where
00:47:14
she was found it also makes you wonder was Kerry's murderer uptick in this community because one the trauma that
00:47:22
everybody would have felt growing up even if you weren't at that party that night you would have known somebody that
00:47:29
was affected Kerry's not the only victim here her family her friends her classmates
00:47:36
so you have a type of trauma that goes through the community but also you have a case that's not solved right
00:47:46
so does that open up Pandora's Box for all the Freaks and Weirdos that go hey I could get away with this too well and
00:47:55
given the statements by the mayor and the uptick in crime and and pointing out that a lot of that crime is coming from
00:48:05
them being a hub rather than its actual citizens I you know that still it Still Remains a
00:48:12
possibility that Kerry was the victim of a violent stranger on Stranger abduction
00:48:17
someone driving by happened to see her or she's out walking a couple blocks to her friend's house on her own and she's
00:48:25
thrown into a vehicle and I and and I think you could look at this and argue both arguments pretty easily
00:48:34
here that it was it had to be a local had to be somebody that knew her that's why she got in the car that's why she
00:48:40
was found where she was found but then at the same time you can say well they've already tested the DNA against
00:48:46
over 100 people that their names were in that case File and we've not found a match yet so maybe it was
00:48:54
some kind of random crime and a stranger on Stranger crime and as we know as we all we see
00:49:04
those are very hard to solve right now the RCMP will not confirm that they are using forensic genealogy in
00:49:13
this case and Carrie Brown's case but let's all hope that they are because after 36 years it seems likely that that
00:49:22
is the only way that this case will get sold [Music] [Applause] I want to thank you so much for joining
00:49:39
us here in the garage thank you so much for telling a friend I get an email at least every week that says hey I I
00:49:46
discovered your show because my buddy listens and now I am hooked and they go back to the beginning and listen from
00:49:52
episode one till now 600 and some episodes we're getting close to 200 and some episodes on off the Record and you
00:50:01
can find that at truecrime garage.com as well and you can also find recommended readings so Colonel do we have any
00:50:07
recommended readings this week Captain this is an oldie but a goodie this is one that we have definitely recommended
00:50:13
before and I'm very happy to be recommending it again because a few weeks ago we were talking about serial
00:50:18
killer Kenneth McDuff and that inspired me to read for the third time who killed
00:50:24
these girls which is a book about the yogurt shop the infamous Austin Texas yogurt shop murders case why am I
00:50:31
recommending it again because it is absolutely one of the best true crime books ever written one of these days
00:50:37
Captain I'm going to come out with a list of the Colonel's top true crime books of all time and this one will
00:50:43
certainly be on there you are going to want to check out who killed these girls Cold Case the yogurt shop murders by
00:50:50
Beverly Lowry you can find that great title and many more on our website's recommended page True Crime garage.com
00:50:59
that is a great idea for an episode I'm going to hold you to that maybe we can do that by the end of the year I would
00:51:06
be interested to hear your top 10 list until next week be good be kind don't litter
00:51:15
foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music]