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[Music] % [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:01:45
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who's working on a mystery without any clues but plenty of
00:01:51
booze he is the captain Oh yeah I waited on the Thunder I waited on the Thunder it's good to be seen and and good to see
00:02:00
you thanks for listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend today we are drinking Texas red
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this is an American Big Texas Amber logger Texas red is extremely balanced super smooth and a perfect end of the
00:02:19
day relaxer garage grade 3 and A2 bottle caps out of five and this week's beer is
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brought To Us by all of you awesome people out there specifically we want to thank Zach in lestershire United Kingdom
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and a big shout out to Jamie and caddy Texas next up a long distance cheers and thank you to our friend Emily and Kil
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and that is enough of the beesness all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:03:24
[Music] crime [Music] a tragic house fire just 2 days before Christmas three little children trapped
00:03:42
inside a father cannot get his children out but he somehow manages to escape the
00:03:48
children die but the man is barely injured and we discussed yesterday things at his home were less than
00:03:55
respectable people began to judge this man he was arrested where we left off yesterday we had
00:04:02
covered the early stages of the trial we presented the prosecutions case today let's start with the defense Todd's
00:04:12
attorneys attempted to poke holes in the arson investigators findings but they did not present any expert
00:04:20
Witnesses David Martin later stated that he had limited funds to hire a rebuttal
00:04:26
arson expert and the one that they hired agreed that the prosecution's arson analysis was correct Martin got fog to
00:04:36
agree that he could not say that Amber did not set the fire but that was all he could get Martin did present into
00:04:46
evidence photos of the front porch of the house showing that there was a charcoal grill and a melted bottle of
00:04:54
lighter fluid on the front porch attempting to show that the puddle patterns found on the floor of the porch
00:05:01
and hallway could have been from spilled lighter fluid sprayed around by one of the kids or kerosene from an oil lamp
00:05:11
found in the house that had admittedly been ignored by investigators also Martin pointed out both Todd and Stacy
00:05:19
were smokers and cigarette lighters were readily available throughout the house Amber could climb over the baby gate in
00:05:28
the doorway of her room she could have tried to light the old lamp and it spilled in the
00:05:36
process Martin also asked fog on Cross examination if the witness knew that the type of lighter fluid found at the house
00:05:45
had been recalled because the fliptop lid was too easily opened by children Martin went after Vasquez as
00:05:56
well challenging his conclusions about the Fire's point of origin and Todd's lack of burns on his feet the defense
00:06:05
only presented two witnesses one was Stacy's cousin who babysat for the family she testified that there was a
00:06:13
kerosene lamp in the house and also that Todd would never have set that fire another was a jailhouse informant who
00:06:21
testified that Johnny Webb the state's first witness had been fed his information and only testified against
00:06:28
Todd because he was under threat from some deputies at the end of the defense's case there was a very strange interlude
00:06:39
in which Martin called Todd to the stand out of the presence of the jury but with
00:06:46
the courtroom full of observers and asked him if he intended to testify Todd responded quote I don't feel that I
00:06:54
should have to I don't feel that I need to and quote with that the defense rested yeah I found that a little odd
00:07:02
but I think what they were trying to do was to prove the point that the burden is on the prosecution and that this guy
00:07:10
that's on trial for the the you know really a heinous murder of his children is saying hey look I don't think you met
00:07:17
burden of proof yeah this could have been orchestrated by the defense the only issue I take with that is that the
00:07:26
jury's not present so I don't know what effect it have on the case unless they're trying to prove a point to the
00:07:33
judge that there was not enough evidence to convict right later it emerged that dun and Martin had dissuaded Todd from
00:07:43
testifying believing that he would not make a sympathetic witness so with that you also have to wonder if they're just
00:07:53
doing their due diligence where he is saying that he wants to testify behind closed doors to his attorneys and they
00:08:03
are trying to talk him out of it to which they wanted it on the record for court record to cover their own butts
00:08:12
that they at least gave him the attempt the the chance to testify and he the client declined right I I think the
00:08:21
reason why they don't want him to testify is he comes off as a liar right away to everybody
00:08:29
and that's before people are really suspicious that he might have caused this fire so and then the rumors that he
00:08:38
constantly changed his story as a lawyer probably going we don't know what he's capable of saying on the stand yeah yeah
00:08:47
I this is one of those one of those stories where I feel like you know technically the defense team did their
00:08:54
jobs but yeah I mean regardless if you think Todd is guilty or not I have to ask myself and everybody else out there
00:09:01
the question do you think they did a good job they they put up only one character witness a teenager no Experts
00:09:08
of their own after the trial right and I feel like they could have we have statements
00:09:15
from his wife which you would think that if she thinks he's responsible for this
00:09:20
that she would hate him You' think at some point they would get her to say in court you know yes he was a he was a
00:09:28
piece of [ __ ] and he beat me and he thought he was Billy badass with his shitty Mallet but
00:09:35
he thought the world of his daughters and he wouldn't have done this he wouldn't have killed his daughters
00:09:40
that's interesting for the defense I guess in their in their defense it's a it's a constant Battle of trying to
00:09:47
determine how much sympathy the jury is going to find in a witness or your client in comparison to the information
00:09:58
that they're being told by that witness or the client at the same point where maybe somebody like me might say well we
00:10:06
know he was abusive to her and she still says he couldn't have done it right that
00:10:11
carries a lot of weight for me there's other people on the opposite side of the fence would that would then say well we
00:10:18
have proof we have proof that he's abusive he's a monster and I I actually believe that points more toward that he
00:10:25
did do it even though she says he couldn't have right or she just saying this out of fear because if he gets out
00:10:32
what's going to happen to her look they try to poke Kohl's and the experts uh opinion right but like you said they
00:10:41
didn't call their own expert and I think that is probably the biggest downfall and that might have been out of their
00:10:48
hands and I know that's scary to think about uh but it's probably the reality maybe not 100% in this case but it's the
00:10:56
reality in a lot of cases that have gone on in our system throughout the years obviously Todd didn't have any money his
00:11:05
defense was provided by the state they did say look we we had a very small budget we used a portion of that to pay
00:11:13
an arson expert however that expert said he agreed with the findings of the prosecution of the of the prosecutions
00:11:24
witnesses and then boom our budget's done we have no more money if Todd had been a rich
00:11:31
man and if there were a lot of money to fund his defense he'd be a rich piece of
00:11:36
[ __ ] they would have found somebody to dispute some of those expert findings Yeah the more I learn about our
00:11:45
justice system and Justice systems around the world one thing that seems to be very clear is the only way for you to
00:11:52
actually get a fair trial is to have money that that's a pretty strong statement I think most would agree with
00:11:58
you um I do in this situation I don't know if I would say that 100% across the board one thing I do not agree with at
00:12:06
all is after the trial Todd's lawyers were vocal about the fact that they did not believe their client was innocent
00:12:16
dun said to an interviewer quote to me he was not repentant he had this attitude and he about him that he was
00:12:25
wrongfully charged end quote even worse the Le defense counsel David Martin said
00:12:31
quote the real fact of the matter is that Willingham was guilty he wasn't innocent he really set that fire and
00:12:38
killed those kids end quote the jurors agreed and post trial interviews they said there was never a question as to
00:12:49
Todd's guilt one juror Laura Marx said she would have found Todd guilty even without the arson finding solely because
00:13:00
he did not try to save his children the deck it seems was stacked against Todd from the
00:13:07
start in all the trial lasted just 3 days the jury deliberated for just 77 minutes wow Cameron Todd Willingham was
00:13:17
found to be guilty every time I think I know most most of the things about the case then you throw something out that I
00:13:24
didn't hear 77 minutes is not that long well that's cuz I'm making it up as I go
00:13:29
along oh yeah okay in so it's it's quite easy I think they um I thought I think they thought about this for about 77
00:13:37
minutes in the penalty phase prosecutor Jackson painted Todd as a violent psychopath and he brought in a medical
00:13:45
expert to testify to this psychiatrist Dr James grigson testified that Todd was a quote extremely severe
00:13:56
psychopath the psychologist Tim Gregory testified that the posters on Todd's wall showed violence and death he said
00:14:05
many times individuals that have a lot of this type of art have interest in satanic type activities so again just
00:14:14
one of a bazillion crimes where we see something as simple as some artwork with skulls on it right and somebody saying
00:14:23
that there's a chance that this guy is a psychopath that he's a fan worshipper um I have that cool skull on
00:14:32
my kitchen table I'm going to throw it away you know so they can't ever he's into the devil right I I guess I guess
00:14:39
to be fair um I don't think that the psychopath determination was based solely off of these posters obviously
00:14:46
this guy's beating his wife repeatedly and possibly very likely could be a psychopath and possibly beating her
00:14:53
while she's pregnant now here's where we get more character Witnesses this is because we have the penalty phase right
00:14:59
so several members of Todd's family they would take the stand here asking the judge to spare Todd from the death
00:15:06
penalty this time it did include Stacy Jackson proceeded to grill her about the tattoos Todd hat he asked
00:15:16
about the significance of the very large tattoo of a skull encircled by some kind
00:15:22
of serpent Stacy responded that it was simply just a tattoo it didn't mean anything thing yeah the
00:15:30
tattoo what she should have said is that tattoo is as shitty as his haircut prosecutor John Jackson never wavered
00:15:37
from his conviction that Todd was guilty the supposed pentagram on the floor and
00:15:43
the Satanist image posters on his walls were just icing on the cake the jury sentenced Todd to death after
00:15:52
deliberating for less than 2 hours he was then moved to the Texas state prison at Huntsville to await his execution but
00:16:02
Todd he's going to get a pin pal once he's in prison right well in 1999 a 47-year-old playwright named
00:16:11
Elizabeth Gilbert decided to do a good deed and participate in a program where people become pen pals with death row
00:16:20
prisoners she was assigned to Todd Willingham who by now was on death row for the last seven years the two struck
00:16:29
up an unlikely friendship Elizabeth began looking into Todd's case after she visited him in prison and found him to
00:16:38
be cleancut polite she just thought he was a nice young man and he was adate that he was innocent he's been fooling
00:16:47
people for a while she read the trial transcripts and spoke with his family and she was horrified at what she found
00:16:55
Gilbert concluded that Todd's trial was completely unfair for one thing the psychiatrist who testified that Todd was
00:17:03
a psychopath had never actually met Todd at all that seems like it should be part
00:17:10
of the requirement right to diagnose somebody as a psychopath yeah well I've been diagnosing people as pieces of [ __ ]
00:17:17
for a long time I never met any of them and then we have Dr grigson Who testified for the prosecution in more
00:17:24
than 100 death penalty cases so this earned him the nickname of Dr Death and in 1995 3 years after willingham's trial
00:17:37
grion was expelled from the American Psychiatric association for violating ethics turns out grigson repeatedly
00:17:48
arrived at a psychiatric diagnosis without examining the individuals in question and for indicating while
00:17:56
testifying in court as an expert witness that he could predict with 100% certainty that individuals would engage
00:18:05
in future violent acts to top that off the supposed satanic imagery found in Todd's home and presented to the jury
00:18:16
was actually a lead Zeppelin and an Iron Maiden poster Todd's stepmother and brother
00:18:25
told Elizabeth what a good dad Todd was he had settled down and married Stacy for the good of his kids Elizabeth even
00:18:35
met with Stacy who divorced Todd and refused to visit him on death row Stacy told Elizabeth 7 years after the trial
00:18:44
that Todd beat her but she still believed he would never hurt the kids Stacy added when the fire occurred
00:18:53
things were good between them and Todd had no reason to set it furthermore Stacy said that the morning of the fire
00:18:59
it was cool out and she recalled that the space heater in the kids's room was powered on more than once she said she
00:19:08
found Amber messing with it well it's weird because it's just happen stance that that Elizabeth gets connected with
00:19:16
Todd and that she's the type of person that will go out of her way to try to figure out this case at least to get
00:19:24
more evidence so she can make a judgment for herself mhm and then she goes well now I think he's innocent and but he's
00:19:32
set to die by the hands of the state yeah she's I mean she's convinced after meeting with his family after meeting
00:19:40
with Stacy reading the trial transcripts that Todd has been railroaded but unfortunately his execution date is
00:19:47
getting closer and she kind of fears that there's nothing that she can do then Todd confesses to her that he
00:19:56
has been hiding this big secret for a decade now Todd said he had lied to investigators about his attempts to
00:20:07
rescue the children he was racked with guilt as Elizabeth told Frontline quote in his mind he couldn't acknowledge that
00:20:17
he didn't you know try to save his children so he can cocked the story that he you know tried to go in and find the
00:20:27
babies and couldn't Todd says quote what I am guilty of is being a coward shortly
00:20:35
after this Elizabeth was in a terrible auto accident and her ability to help Todd came to a screeching halt but
00:20:46
science modernizes and so does fire science before the Todd Willingham murder trial
00:20:54
this on February 10th 1992 the national Fire Protection Association published a groundbreaking document titled NFPA
00:21:04
921 this document compiled by 30 fire experts including John lentini who will come up again contained updated
00:21:14
guidelines for fire investigators that reflected many new advances in fire science the Texas fire Marshall's office
00:21:23
along with most other fire investigatory bodies adopt Ed NFPA 921 as the standard in fire
00:21:33
analysis NFPA 921 was based on fire science not the folklore and gut instinct that dominated fire
00:21:43
investigations for Generations yeah which kind of drives me nuts that it would even be possible that somebody
00:21:50
would be sentenced to death for arson if basically the investigators are just going off of gut instincts and not some
00:21:59
proven science one thing we all need to keep in mind and this is one General misconception that I see often when
00:22:07
talking to a lot of people regarding trial and testimony presented at trial when somebody sits on the stand
00:22:17
and tells you what they think happened we need to keep in mind that even though the prosecution or the defense or even
00:22:26
the judge or the court itself is telling you that so and so is here they are an expert you need to keep in mind that
00:22:37
what you have to do as a juror what your job is as a juror is to take that information and take it into
00:22:45
consideration it doesn't necessarily mean that somebody sitting on the stand is presenting to you the fact that this
00:22:52
is in fact arson or this murder had to be conducted this way because I'm an expert and I say this is how it happened
00:23:01
it's not fact it's one expert's opinion right and then we weigh those opinions against our own feelings and the other
00:23:08
information that is presented the problem you have here in this particular case is there's no other opinion that
00:23:14
was presented at the time now I will say this Todd Willingham is one of the most
00:23:24
unlucky people to ever be tried in in court and I say that because of of this and this this is regardless if you think
00:23:34
he's innocent or guilty M what takes place here is this document that becomes the new standard for fire investigation
00:23:44
becomes the new standard on how you determine if arson was committed this NFPA 921
00:23:52
document this does not go into effect until February of 1992 by this point the investigation at
00:24:03
Todd's home has already been conducted yeah they're going off of the old information these two these two old
00:24:10
school guys went through the scene saw what they saw and then gave their opinion and said hey this fire was set
00:24:18
and we know Todd Willingham was in the home at the time that the fire started he must be the one that started it and
00:24:25
therefore he needs to be arrested he was arrested in January uh January 8th this document goes out in February
00:24:34
now here's where it it becomes a a big uh a big time misstep in my opinion uhhuh yes he's already arrested yes he's
00:24:46
going to be charged however his murder trial the triple homicide trial does not start until what was it August so we
00:24:57
have months that go by that say this these two experts opinion might not be the best opinion out right
00:25:06
basically what states is these guys are going by the old school way so guess what their opinion don't mean [ __ ] and
00:25:15
so again I think um you would think that the the defense lawyers would know about this report and
00:25:25
use this to their their advantage but but a lot of them are defending so many people so who knows yeah that's that's
00:25:33
again where I say it it looks like technically they did their job they represented this man and they they did
00:25:39
put up some fight but then you have to at the end of the day question truly how much of a fight did they provide and
00:25:46
their job as their Duty as an attorney in representing this man is they have a fiduciary duty
00:25:55
to every one of his best interest or what they're supposed to be pushing well yeah and I think here like you said they
00:26:04
they try to get their own expert witness and they go well I agree with the the states yeah cuz he's going off of the
00:26:11
old information I would guess as well right and the thing is you could disprove everything that they say just
00:26:17
by simply going do you go by this new way or the old way oh you go by the old way well guess what that doesn't count
00:26:25
anymore so guess what you're not expert anymore unless you're going by the new way here's the other thing too when
00:26:32
they're dispersing that information I I kind of Wonder even if the defense here's the thing we we were
00:26:42
just talking about you you said to me in yesterday's show so you're saying here on the record that you're not a fire
00:26:49
investigator and arson expert and I said no I only know what I know from this case and a few other Fire cases that
00:26:56
we've covered in the past right the his attorneys Todd's attorneys are not technically fire experts either the
00:27:03
disappointing thing here is that these two experts made their analysis and their opinion in January which led to
00:27:13
his arrest then they are on the stand in August and at no point do they say hey some of the thought on this stuff has
00:27:21
changed right and you know we do see that from time to time especially when you're talking about people that have
00:27:27
that are working in a field where they have 20 25 years experience and then something new comes about they ain't
00:27:35
always on board in the beginning or sometimes ever now speaking of experts this will bring us to a significant
00:27:43
point in our story which is in January of 2004 keep in mind Todd's execution is scheduled for February
00:27:51
17th so we're just weeks away from Texas executing Todd Willingham his appeals have been exhausted by this point we
00:28:01
have his cousin her name is Patricia Cox she saw a fire science uh fire scientist
00:28:07
named Gerald Hurst on TV Dr Hurst was a chemist with a PhD from Cambridge who studied fire from a chemical and
00:28:18
scientific perspective one journalist referred to him as the Godfather of modern arson
00:28:25
science Pat called Hurst and begged him to take a look at Todd's case Hurst agreed to free of charge four weeks
00:28:37
before Todd was scheduled to be executed Hurst received the trial transcripts the
00:28:43
states arson report and a videotape showing the actual fire scene Hurst completely threw out the entire report
00:28:52
that was used to convict Todd he found that its conclusions were not rooted in scientific fact but outdated Concepts
00:29:00
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mates cheers you filthy animals so Dr Hurst he was interviewed by Frontline and he reported his findings in that
00:31:32
interview now here's what he had to say the fire had gone to flashover flashover
00:31:38
left natural patterns on the floor that all post flashover fires tend to leave behind and these were what was
00:31:47
misidentified as the poor patterns he goes on to say that the prosecutor in this case literally believed that the
00:31:54
burn patterns on the floor were in the shape of a pent like some Satanic ritual when you
00:32:00
actually look at the burn pattern that they drew and then you look at where the windows are windows furnish ventilation
00:32:10
to the fire right there's like a ventilation stream so really all what you're looking at in his opinion was
00:32:18
what he calls ventilation patterns he also said that the sample of wood debris from the base of the front
00:32:25
porch that was analyzed the results were positive for a combustible liquid accelerant kerosene
00:32:33
specifically right well that's quite understandable because the porch also had a barbecue on it so likely there was
00:32:41
charcoal lighter fluid there if there was hearse believe that either the lighter fluid spilled or it spilled out
00:32:49
when the container melted but it did not cause the fire this is this is a little
00:32:55
tricky because we have the defense earlier pointing out that there was in fact Char charcoal lighter fluid on the
00:33:03
front porch that could have been spiled by one of the kids right but there's also a grill out there that's it seems
00:33:10
like that's where Todd grilled out was the front porch Todd's feet weren't burned because
00:33:16
if no accelerant was poured on the floor the floor would have been relatively cool until after the flashover occurred
00:33:24
in the bedroom right did you see the video footage of the flashover I did yeah it's amazing how
00:33:31
quickly that room went in went into flames yeah well here's also one sad thing that I would like to point out
00:33:39
when we talk about Todd's feet and that there was no accelerant poured on the floor and that's why you know in his
00:33:46
defense his feet weren't burned his feet are also not burned because he didn't attempt to save anybody right we know
00:33:51
that from his confession to Elizabeth Gilbert so that's at this point talking to Frontline or whoever it doesn't
00:33:59
matter about his feet yeah his feet his feet aren't burned because like he said he's a coward if if we are to believe
00:34:06
him he he didn't set the fire but he didn't try to save anybody the craz glass in the
00:34:14
windows Dr Hurst says is not caused just by extreme heat requiring an accelerent
00:34:20
it's also caused by heated windows that are then sprayed with water from fire hoses causing the glass to Splinter
00:34:27
right and that' be new science information that they would have got in this new report which is horseshit in my
00:34:34
opinion this should have been old science this one piece right here because anybody that's taken like if you
00:34:40
take a glass that that comes out of the hot dishwasher steam cycle immediately and try to pour cold water into it or
00:34:49
fill it up with cold water we've we all see the effect of that right the the sudden change in temperature applied to
00:34:57
Glass will cause it to break Splinter so on and so forth yeah like I said uh or like you said this is definitely
00:35:04
something that they should have already known we also talked about the temperature of the fire and wood fires
00:35:12
only burn so hot that was their evidence stating that the aluminum threshold could not have been melted simply by a
00:35:19
Woodfire had to have been melted due to an accelerant fire he's saying Hurst is saying that
00:35:27
it's a myth that an accelerant would have been needed to melt the aluminum threshold he's pointing out that woodf
00:35:33
fires can burn that hot or hot enough on their own right he also points out and I
00:35:39
think this is where you were going Captain the V patterns that can be found V patterns can be found after a
00:35:46
flashover they are not indicative of a point of origin Dr hurst's report concluded that
00:35:52
the fire that had killed Carmen Cameron and Amber was not and arson in his opinion he stated on Front Line quote
00:36:00
Todd willingham's case falls into that category where there is not one iota of evidence that the fire was arson not one
00:36:09
iota and he added this quote there's nothing to suggest to any reasonable arson investigator that this was an
00:36:17
arson fire it was just a fire it was likely caused by the space heater or faulty electrical wiring this meant that
00:36:26
Todd willing was convicted and sentenced to death without any crime taking place
00:36:32
unfortunately Dr Hurst finished his report only four days before Todd's scheduled execution Todd's appeals
00:36:40
lawyer Walter Reeves this is a different attorney filed several emergency last minute appeals sending Dr hurst's report
00:36:49
to the Texas Board of Pardons and paroles asking for Todd's sentence to be commuted the text Texas Court of
00:36:57
Criminal Appeals as well asking for the execution to be halted and the US Supreme Court and the governor of Texas
00:37:06
office Rick Perry whose office received it with only 88 minutes to spare despite
00:37:14
hurst's findings the Texas appeals court refused to delay the execution the state
00:37:20
court wouldn't hear the case the Board of Pardons and parols denied Todd's petition ah and
00:37:28
astoundingly the Governor Rick Perry declined to Grant Todd a reprieve while the new report was considered okay now
00:37:36
the Rick Perry his office got it I believe on a Friday yeah I think that was the report that went out there but
00:37:43
the report here is that his office received it with 88 minutes to spare okay so an hour less than an hour
00:37:51
and a half before the execution right you wish that these reports got their sooner but here's why I'm on because we
00:38:01
created this system that's flawed and we know it's flawed that's why we have appeals and things like that but here's
00:38:08
this guy that went on trial with gut feelings and not actual scientific evidence it's like it's like saying
00:38:16
that's this is before DNA so therefore I believe the DNA matches and then DNA comes out and we
00:38:26
have scientific proof on when it matches and doesn't and not just some gut feeling and that's what happened here
00:38:33
and it seems to me constantly that the state and the justice system itself doesn't want to examine itself it just
00:38:40
wants to say it it constantly wants to defend itself to say we got it right the first
00:38:47
time well his appeals were exhausted they did examine theirselves as you're as you as you say um he he had several
00:38:57
appeals he did receive different representation during that appeals process right how how adequate was that
00:39:07
um representation you know if they're not it seems pretty thorough to me Walter Reeves filed several emergency last
00:39:16
minute appeals sending them to 1 2 3 4 four different offices no no I mean the fact that all
00:39:26
these offices saw these and go we're not going to we're not going to call a timeout right now we're just moving
00:39:34
forward we got it right moving forward see what I mean right no I I get it I get it where
00:39:43
here's here's the other thing to keep that I would keep in mind anyway that when I'm reviewing this
00:39:49
it Rick Perry's going to have some further involvement in this case or these types of cases
00:39:58
let's say that will call into question his character for me right I wonder when receiving this
00:40:08
report 88 minutes and less than an hour and a half before the execution did he even was it even
00:40:16
reviewed was there even time to review you know what I mean it's like and it's nobody's fault that's just
00:40:22
the way that it worked out that's last minute it is it is very last minute and there's there's no
00:40:31
turning back if somebody if that report is not seen reviewed before the 88th minute
00:40:40
yeah the the other thing too I also want to point out I respect this Dr Hurst I respect
00:40:47
his findings and I believe his findings are correct I will point out though his report also well I shouldn't say also
00:40:56
his report does not provide a point of origin for the fire itself well he believed that it was actually I I think
00:41:05
his well go back to gut feeling is that it was electrical and that to determine that
00:41:13
would have taken minutes is what he claimed cuz you could follow because now everything is exposed so you'd be able
00:41:21
to follow the wire to see where it was faulty at correct I get that but in this report that I cited here he States it
00:41:29
could have been electrical wiring bad wiring or it could have been the space heater right but the reason why he
00:41:36
doesn't have that is because he wasn't able he wasn't physically there he wasn't physically there to Go Through
00:41:41
the Wire so you know I he can only base it off of he's say he's saying had he looked at it been physically there this
00:41:52
is the route he would have taken he would have been able to conclude within minutes if it was faulty wiring right
00:41:58
because if there wasn't faulty wiring then you could point to the space heater so I I'm guessing that there was faulty
00:42:05
wiring but this is one of those weird cases where people believe somebody's innocent or guilty and there's not much
00:42:13
of a conclusion yes this guy is sentenced to death and he he goes through with it I mean like he he is put
00:42:21
to death um and what is what I giving a spoiler so the the the weird thing too while
00:42:32
this is all going on mind you this is starting in January and leading up to the date of execution during this time
00:42:39
frame Stacy his ex-wife now they divorc she comes out publicly and stated that she now believed Todd to be guilty for
00:42:47
years she maintained that he was innocent right even C campaigning for his release by writing to the governor
00:42:55
but now she said after reading the entire trial transcript she changed her mind she finally visited Todd and prison
00:43:04
just weeks before his scheduled execution date and the two exchanged some words Todd asked her not to attend
00:43:13
his execution right and Todd asked her to bury him by you know with his kids she denied both of these requests
00:43:24
Todd later found out that St 's brother signed an affidavit in opposition to his
00:43:31
appeals for clemency saying that Todd had confessed the crime to Stacy this is not true this didn't happen but Todd
00:43:40
believed that uh Stacy had turned on him on February 17th 2004 Todd's parents spent a few hours with him to say
00:43:51
goodbye he told them he didn't want them to worry and that he would be okay okay Todd ate his final meal at 400 p.m.
00:44:00
this was three barbecued pork ribs two orders of onion rings fried okra three beef enchiladas with cheese and two
00:44:10
slices of lemon cream pie well you eat the okra because it's good for you then he was told that Governor Perry refused
00:44:18
his request for a stay that statement makes it sound like it the information that was sent to his office was in fact
00:44:26
review right basically for Todd time is up Todd refused to cooperate and he had to be carried into the execution chamber
00:44:37
shortly after 6:00 p.m. Todd Willingham was executed by lethal injection his final statement was
00:44:44
quote the only statement that I want to make is that I am an innocent man convicted of a crime I did not commit I
00:44:53
have been persecuted for 12 12 years for something I did not do from God's dust I
00:45:00
came and to dust I will return so the Earth shall become my Throne I got to go Road dog I love you Gabby when Todd
00:45:09
finished with this statement he started swearing in the direction of his ex-wife
00:45:13
Stacy who was watching the proceeding contrary to his wishes he said a few sentences that I will not repeat and
00:45:22
then a lethal cocktail was administered in Todd Willingham was pronounced dead at 6:20 p.m. yeah I think she he told
00:45:31
her that he wished that should effing rot in hell yes there it's I think he probably said more than
00:45:42
that that's what they report most of the time it's actually about four sentences
00:45:47
along and it's pretty brutal um the Chicago Tribune later that same year this is on
00:45:55
December 9th 2004 the Tribune had a shocking headline on page one that said Texas man executed
00:46:03
on disproved forensics the second headline stated fire that killed his three children
00:46:10
could have been accidental the story was 16,000 words the newspaper conducted its
00:46:16
own investigation of the Willingham case and hired four fire science experts to review the evidence including John
00:46:24
latini and general Hurst the four experts unanimously found that Willingham was prosecuted and convicted
00:46:32
base primarily on arson theories that have since been refuted and by scientific advances the paper cited that
00:46:42
the original investigation was flawed and the fire was possibly an accident John Jackson the prosecutor in the
00:46:50
Willingham case stuck to his guns even in the face of this report but a jur her in the case felt differently she
00:46:59
questioned if anyone knew about the hearse report prior to the execution adding quote now I will have to live
00:47:07
with this for the rest of my life maybe this man was innocent and end quote the Tribune also interviewed Douglas fog the
00:47:16
assistant fire chief in the Willingham investigation he said that his findings were correct he said fires talk to you
00:47:25
the structure talks to you he said you call that years of experience you don't just pick that knowledge up overnight he
00:47:33
has refused to admit that it is possible that his conclusions were based on erroneous assumptions and outdated
00:47:42
Concepts he told Frontline I don't care how many degrees you have how many books
00:47:47
you may have written this was a set fire yeah this guy is a [ __ ] this is one of
00:47:53
those guys that go my gut feeling tells me that the Earth is flat and and I don't give a [ __ ] what science
00:48:00
says it's ridiculous the coracana police department Sergeant Jimmy Hensley who helped interrogate Todd after the fire
00:48:10
told Frontline quote the thing is we eliminated all those possibilities of gas or accidental things that could have
00:48:17
caused the fire so if they're eliminated and they're not present then it's arson
00:48:24
so I mean this is if you believe this statement then it's like as if arson exists just because the absence of any
00:48:32
known cause right and there's also causes that they didn't check they didn't check the wiring so right and
00:48:39
that that was one big thing that comes out in this whole thing you know the Tribune for the very first time publicly
00:48:47
revealed that fog's report did note possible electrical shorts in two places inside the home right this is a yeah
00:48:58
this is stupid in June of 2005 Governor Perry signed a law establishing the Texas forensic science commission this
00:49:06
govern government agency was impanel to improve forensics in the state and investigate forensic analysts
00:49:15
misconduct this included ensuring that forensic fire investigation techniques were up to date meanwhile as a result of
00:49:24
the Chicago tribunes expose on Todd's case the Innocence Project got involved in trying to poly exonerate Todd it
00:49:34
consulted with fire experts including John lentini in reviewing the arson evidence on May 2nd 2006 the innocent
00:49:44
project released a report from its fire experts that was starkly critical of the
00:49:49
original fire investigation that concluded that quote each and every one of the indicator of arson had been
00:49:57
scientifically proven to be invalid the Innocence Project sent its report to the
00:50:04
tfsc the Texas forensic science commission with a request that they investigate Todd's case Sam bassette the
00:50:13
chair of the board decided to hire Dr Craig Baylor for their first inquiry to look into the case on August 24th 2009
00:50:25
Baylor's report came out he found that the original fire investigation relied on indicators of arson that had since
00:50:32
been disproved the initial investigators fog and Vasquez failed to examine all of
00:50:38
the electrical outlets appliances and wiring in the Willingham house and did not consider other potential causes of
00:50:47
fire as John lentini summarized the Baylor report is point for point a confirmation of the original Hurst
00:50:55
report that all 20 of the indicators were wrong the evidence says this was an accidental fire further Baylor's report
00:51:05
found that the fire investigators did not meet the standard of care for fire investigation at the time vquez findings
00:51:15
are nothing more than a collection of personal beliefs that have nothing to do with science-based fire investigation
00:51:21
this is what Baylor concluded right he also said that a fighing of arson could not be sustained this was very bad news
00:51:30
for Governor Perry he was up for another term in office and look the last thing he wants looming over his reelection is
00:51:40
the Spectre of a possible innocent man being executed under his watch so two days before Dr Baylor was scheduled to
00:51:50
testify before the tfsc about his findings Perry fired chairman Sam bassette and
00:51:59
two others on the commission what a [ __ ] stain Perry named John Bradley this is a
00:52:05
close Ally as besets replacement and the Bor testimony was cancelled this move by Perry backfired
00:52:13
somewhat because when word got out that he had engaged in political maneuvering to avoid publicizing the negligence in
00:52:22
Todd's case the story became a ntional one sparking outrage by anti-de penalty activists on April 14th 2011 the tfsc
00:52:36
released a report that concluded its review of the Willingham case the report acknowledged that their fire
00:52:43
investigation had changed and the willingham's investigators had relied on now outdated science but also found that
00:52:52
there was insufficient evidence that fog and vaset were negligent having used standards accepted in Texas at the time
00:53:01
meanwhile a judge who had voted to uphold Texas sorry keep going meanwhile a judge who had voted to uphold Todd's
00:53:11
death sentence when he was on the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals in 1995 agreed in 2010 to convene a court
00:53:20
of inquiry to determine whether Todd had been wrongfully convicted this was in response to an appeal by Todd's family
00:53:28
directly the judge Was preparing an order for exoneration but the third court of
00:53:35
appeals shut this inquiry down on the basis that the judge should recuse himself because he had previously ruled
00:53:44
on the case back in 1995 right and was not permitted to conduct further inquiry or issue his order of
00:53:54
exoneration Captain I can tell by the the the steam coming off my head well and the the the low beer uh count in the
00:54:04
fridge and the clock on the wall that we are running out of some time so I do want to I'm going to summarize something
00:54:11
that's also pretty big in this case remember we talked about Johnny web this guy that comes forward from jail and he
00:54:18
says hey Todd confessed to me that he killed his kids yeah he came home one day and Stacy had done something to one
00:54:27
of them maybe one of the kids was almost dead or even dead and Todd comes up with
00:54:32
this idea let's burn the house down and we're going to hide this whole thing that's basically his
00:54:39
testimony without getting too far into the details of this Johnny Webb eventually does recant that he he
00:54:49
there's a there's a retraction of his testimony right he actually says you know I I was fed some
00:54:57
information and I went along with it and I testified against this guy and I was promised some you know like we said
00:55:06
favor for a favor yeah and he didn't get it he he did receive some uh favors right um you know again
00:55:16
without getting too much into the details of such his case was recommended for an early parole this by the
00:55:23
prosecutor of Todd Willingham he was also hooked up with a somebody that might take care of him once he is on the
00:55:31
outside somebody that provided him with money for things like getting back on his feet so he could find a job getting
00:55:37
a vehicle things of that nature so he did receive some help uh even if you want to go and say that it was from a
00:55:46
third or fourth or even fifth party the problem with Johnny Webb is there will be multiple times that he
00:55:54
will say I was lying when I testified and then later he comes back and says no I wasn't
00:55:59
lying and then he comes back again and says he was lying I don't I can't believe anything the guy says so I think
00:56:06
you throw the whole thing out yeah I think for the most part you throw out any prison type
00:56:15
confession cuz they never seem to go well so the thing here too is in Johnny web's defense
00:56:25
and I know I just said I don't know that I can believe anything he says this is backed up by other individuals that we
00:56:32
have some that have been named in this story and our telling of this case and some that have not been named
00:56:38
unfortunately Johnny Webb was brutally attacked when he was in jail there's evidence to that suggested to me that
00:56:46
this was a man that was very afraid uh possibly even for his life I think that he would have been
00:56:54
easily eily manipulated or maybe even came up with some of it on his own anything he could it was Battle
00:57:03
conditions for this dude and I think he was doing anything he could to to save himself right and what's so pathetic
00:57:10
though is we don't know why those conditions were that way because I I was watching um a dramatization of something
00:57:19
and it it almost seemed as if the the prison put a certain person In Harm's Way knowing that later they're going to
00:57:28
use them to testify against somebody else and that person we just we don't know yet we need a little help with the
00:57:35
trial probably down the line and that's the person we're going to use but they're the ones setting up the really
00:57:41
bad harsh conditions in prison yeah or or failing to understand that there are harsh conditions or or persons in danger
00:57:49
right yeah you know as as as funny as this may sound to to hear um and and this and I bring this up
00:58:00
because this is something that you you get when you talk about inmates on death row but it also goes to the same
00:58:08
standard of people in jail awaiting trial Jeffrey Epstein would be a good example and he's been in the news a
00:58:14
whole lot lately um technically it is the state's Duty it's the state's job to make sure that even if um some is put on
00:58:25
death row even if John piece of [ __ ] Smith is put on death row for multiple murders technically it's the state's job
00:58:33
to keep that man alive so they can carry out the sentence of executing him same thing with this jail house it's the
00:58:42
state's job or the County's job whoever's housing these persons in jail awaiting their trial to keep them safe
00:58:48
to the point that they can actually go to trial you know because just because they're in a jail cell does not mean
00:58:54
mean that they're a bad person it doesn't even mean that they're guilty right they haven't gone to trial yet now
00:59:01
in 2012 Todd's stepmother Eugena Willingham and his cousin Patricia Willingham filed
00:59:09
a petition with the Texas Board of Pardons and parols for a full pardon for Todd they had the full assistance and
00:59:17
support of the Innocence Project but their petition was opposed by Stacy kendle who said that she did not feel
00:59:25
that Todd deserved a pardon the Texas Board of Pardons and paroles voted in March of 2014 and they did deny Todd
00:59:34
Willingham uh a full pardon right because like I said the system never wants to admit that it's wrong it just
00:59:43
refuses to even even when they were so scared to uh go against the new evidence that like West Memphis 3 it's like well
00:59:53
how about we have you admit that you're guilty and then we'll let you out I mean some of this stuff doesn't
01:00:00
make any sense you okay you're going to take three people that you're claiming killed three eight-year-old boys in a
01:00:07
satanic ma Manner and you're going to just say say you're guilty and we'll let you
01:00:14
go it's ridiculous and in this case it's like this you know was this guy a piece
01:00:19
of [ __ ] yes he was a piece of [ __ ] you know and and he deserves to rot in hell
01:00:23
anybody that puts their hand on a woman deserves to run in hell and then if he was beating her up while she's pregnant
01:00:29
he's even worse I mean they cut off his goddamn testicles for all he give [ __ ]
01:00:33
but that doesn't mean that he set this fire it doesn't mean that he's responsible for their deaths now I would
01:00:39
argue that his cowardness is what led to their death it seems to me that if the police sorry I'm getting all frustrated
01:00:50
but it seems to me when the firefighters showed up that they were able to to get
01:00:54
into the house and actually get to the girls and it seems to me that when he was when he was coming to or when he was
01:01:00
waking up because he hears his daughter that he would have had the time to go in
01:01:05
there and get his children out and he chose to be selfish cuz this guy seems to be a selfish selfish piece of [ __ ]
01:01:13
and you can even see when like it's his last words and it's just all about him you know I I I'm innocent of this you
01:01:22
know why you could have just admitted you know look I'm innocent of this but yeah I was a coward and I didn't save
01:01:27
them and maybe I deserve this it's it's frustrating yeah I I absolutely hate this case 100% it was very interesting
01:01:39
to dive into it was very interesting to learn some of the fire science if you want to call it that arson science and
01:01:46
how it's changed throughout the years the where where you hate this case and why you can't feel good about this
01:01:57
case look man I'm not going to lie to you we presented a lot of information that says that this guy was in fact
01:02:03
innocent after presenting a lot of information that says this guy is guilty right the thing about it there's
01:02:10
still to this day people that feel one way or the other it's not it's not a uniform united front here that everybody
01:02:18
is walking arm in- arm hand in hand and singing the Praises of Todd and saying he was innocent of these three murders I
01:02:27
read one interview where there was a person from the area and the way that this was stated made me feel that
01:02:34
there's probably a lot of other people from that area still to this day would that would feel the same way this person
01:02:40
statement was I know that he's dead I know that they executed him and I wish that I could dig him up and we could
01:02:48
kill them two more times just so it would be even three murders and three executions yeah so there are a lot of
01:02:54
people that feel very strongly about this one way or another and I tell you what after spending two weeks looking at
01:03:01
this case and and just being eyeballs deep in this whole mess I can see why people feel strongly
01:03:10
one way or the other so I'm not even going to bother getting into that portion of it where I have some some big
01:03:19
big issues is from things at the start look let's all pretend that we are united front and we all 100% believe
01:03:28
that Willingham that Todd Willingham was innocent and I don't want to victim blame if that would be the case but one
01:03:39
you know if you give an a man enough rope sometimes he hangs himself I think what happened here
01:03:45
is if he was telling the truth and he was innocent one and two he was a coward and he fled the home what does he do on
01:03:53
that first day of questioning he gives a very long story of the motions and the actions that he did while still inside
01:04:01
the home trying to save his children failing to do so and then ending up on the front lawn and then I think we have
01:04:11
a problem where Not only was the deck stacked against Willingham like we said regarding the trial in a sense the deck
01:04:19
is then stacked against the fire inspectors as well because as you're going through and you're looking at
01:04:25
everything and I know that the one fire inspector said the fire talks to you the
01:04:28
structure talks to you right maybe there's a building that can help you if there's fires and buildings talking to
01:04:34
you anyway and I know he's just using those terms but when you're going through this and it is at that time the
01:04:42
fire science to this man's knowledge and to the other fire investigators knowledge is based off of years of
01:04:48
experience past experiences things that they have seen witnessed and and worked on in the past so in a sense it is a gut
01:04:57
feeling it's one man or two men's interpretation of what they believe that they're seeing but you go through and
01:05:03
every piece every burn mark every questionable thing is a mystery to you but what is not a mystery is you have
01:05:13
this long statement from a man who says he was inside the home woke up around the time that the
01:05:20
fire seemed to start and he made an attempt to save his children he he had movements and actions
01:05:29
that were an attempt to save his children ends up on the front lawn a bit of that too man as an
01:05:36
investigator is you're taking his statements and you're looking at the house and you're
01:05:42
going what he said doesn't match up with what we are finding inside this house yeah he must be lying well why would he
01:05:51
lie cuz he set the fire and he killed his children right so not to victim blame here if in fact
01:05:58
Todd Willingham was a victim but had he just been up front in the beginning and said look I woke up and
01:06:07
the place was on fire I don't know what the hell happened it was you know I got burned a little bit and I ran out front
01:06:13
and then I was too chicken [ __ ] to go back inside right and that that the the investigation itself regardless of of
01:06:21
fires and buildings talking to this man might have gone a different way right and also I think he was pretending
01:06:31
outside and making a scene to cover up the fact that he was a coward and then that came off as disingenuous so because
01:06:41
it was right disingenuous the other thing too captain that that is terrible you know I just
01:06:48
reference how strongly some people in the area still feel to this day about his guilt
01:06:56
and we even have the one juror who says it wasn't a question about his guilt after I figured out that I don't really
01:07:03
think he attempted to save his children what I'm getting at is I I find I'm with you and and I'm not going to go
01:07:13
as far to blame it on the system there were some areas there were plenty of points you're absolutely right there are
01:07:19
plenty of points and and moments in time where this could have corrected itself or at least put it on freeze mode and
01:07:27
reexamine the whole thing and that didn't happen and that is horrible but when we say that our system is
01:07:36
flawed there's there's everybody knows that there's no one out there that denies that one bit and when this system
01:07:42
was set up and put in place if anybody believed that they were putting in place a Flawless system well that's a [ __ ]
01:07:51
right but what we attempt to do over over time and we learn with experience we try to mold the system to uh get
01:07:59
better with time and to do what we set it up to do in the process what what I'm getting at here is
01:08:08
I find that the trial itself was not a great trial but that seems to be for my opinion more on the defense side it
01:08:19
looks like the prosecution is putting forth the case against this man that was presented to him by investigators and
01:08:27
the witnesses that this prosecutor interviewed minus that of Johnny Webb because that's a whole another story we
01:08:34
don't know that portion of it 100% Johnny Webb can't be believed this prosecutor could be corrupt and there
01:08:41
are signs pointing to that but Johnny we uh not Johnny web uh Todd willingham's Council again I think they did an okay
01:08:55
job they didn't do the best job I think that given what what we have people to this day saying let's dig them up and
01:09:02
execute him two more times that to me is proof that this trial should have been moved change a venue get this thing away
01:09:09
this community that immediate area is too messed up and distraught by the death of three children to probably
01:09:18
provide an accurate jury pull and the thing too it just I mean they didn't call hardly any Witnesses I
01:09:27
don't know it's just it's it's an aggravating case because no matter how you spin it either three kids were
01:09:34
murdered or an innocent man was put to [Music] death everybody thanks for joining us in
01:09:53
the garage spending your quality time with us be kind to everybody we'll see you back here next week until then be
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