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Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick and
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iTunes store. That's enough of the business, Captain. Gather round, grab a chair, grab a beer, let's talk some true
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crime. 18-year-olds Sebastian Burns and his friend Atif Rafay, they were staying at Rafay's
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parents' home. This is back in July of 1994. Atif had been off at college, and Sebastian was living up in Canada.
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They're visiting with Atif's family in Bellevue, Washington, where his sister lives as well. They've
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been there for a few days by this point. They go out for a night on the town. They go out to a light dinner followed
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by a movie and then some drinks afterwards. They come back to Atif's parents' home, and they find that all
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three members of Atif's family had been brutally murdered. They call 911. They run outside waiting for the police to
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arrive. And shortly afterwards, we start to see some things that may or may not point to
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Sebastian and Atif as the guilty party. Right, or at least the number one suspects.
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Correct. Well, they are definitely, I think, we're seeing a lot of actions by the Bellevue Police Department that
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would show them that they at least believe that Sebastian and Atif had committed these murders.
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Right. And where we left off yesterday, the two had returned to Sebastian's parents home
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in Canada where they would remain there. Right. And at first Atif and Sebastian are very cooperative with the police and
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law enforcement, but now under the advice of a attorney, uh their lawyer, they say, "Hey, don't
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cooperate anymore." Yeah, and but we do have Sebastian's family and the friends of both the boys,
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they're kind of rallying around both of both of them believing them to be totally innocent.
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Right. And so now that the they've stopped cooperating with the Bellevue Police Department, the detective there,
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remember this is Detective Thompson who is leading the investigation, he decided
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to keep digging into the boys' past. And he found what he thought was a bit of a
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disturbing clue from their past. Yes. He discovered that that Sebastian was in drama club.
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Yes. And that's disturbing. He was acting. He was I'm an actor. Actor. Uh yeah, he found that the the
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disturbing clue was that Sebastian was in a high school play called Rope, uh about two kids who commit the perfect
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murder. Yeah. The detectives believed that the fictional murder story inspired the
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real-life crime. And even more chilling, the weapon used in the story was the same as what was used to kill the Rafay
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family, a baseball bat. Right. Have you ever seen this play? No, I have not. I've not seen it.
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So what's uh kind of interesting about it is they have um this murder victim, right? And they put
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this murder victim in a box. Okay. And so you see this at the beginning of the play, and then there's this party
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and they're inviting all the guests in. And as they're inviting the guests in, they know that there's a certain number
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of guests. Mhm. Right? But what nobody at the party knows is the final guest that they're
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waiting on is in the box. And in the victim is then revealed? Yeah, so it there's actually a very like
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dark comedy aspect to this because based off of what people are saying makes sense. So when when you throw in
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comedy, I'm thinking why are they showing why are they acting out a murder plot as a
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a high school play. But But when you say comedy, I Okay, I'm with you now. Yeah, so there's there's all these
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scenes in the play where the audience kind of laughs because they what's in the box.
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what's in the box. Yeah, so it's very but you know, so one yes, this is odd that he's in this
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play about this thing and it's odd that the weapon used in that case was a bat. That is odd. That's a pretty
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weird coincidence. But it's also dark comedy play and it's like I don't know. Uh
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to me this just seems like grabbing at straws. It's a stretch. It is a leap, my friend. I I mean
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I I get it. It doesn't um It certainly doesn't rule them out. We can say that. rule them in.
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But yeah, you're not going to get a guilty conviction off of That just makes no sense.
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would be like some detective could now go into your past and my past and they could basically accuse of accuse us of
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any crime in America because of our past. Well, Right. um We know that the murderer was a cannibal
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and we do know that the second episode of True Crime Gay Ridge was on Jeffrey Dahmer. So, they must have killed these
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people. No, it doesn't work that way. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a stretch. It's a leap at best. Um as the investigation
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continued Atif and Sebastian, they are living in Vancouver. They are spending some of the money that Atif inherited
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from his parents' estate. Right, which They bought a convertible. Um they rented an apartment. Go ahead.
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So, the police start thinking that, you know, Atif's motive and Sebastian's motive would be the fact that there'd be
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insurance policy on Atif's family. And he was going to receive hundreds of thousands of dollars cuz like we said,
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his family was definitely upper class. And like I said, they were renting an apartment, but also living at the
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apartment with Atif and Sebastian is their old high school pal. This is Jimmy Miyoshi. Now they are living They are
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living well, but they are hiding from the media up in Canada because the media they were in
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constant pursuit of Sebastian and especially Atif because of their story. Yeah, so even though that their family
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and friends believe that they were innocent because the the police went to the media and said, "Hey, these guys
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fled America to not get charged with these crimes." Now in Canada, most people find them to be guilty.
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Yeah, and I I think I read one newspaper article or maybe it was a magazine article that referred to Sebastian and
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Atif as the most popular murder suspects in Vancouver. Right, or and some some people would
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argue all of Canada. Yeah. Yeah. So, but speaking of stories, Atif and Sebastian were concocting their
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own story. This was one that they started working on their very own screenplay about two best
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friends accused of murdering a family and they called the screenplay The Great Despisers.
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Right, and in the movie or in the script anyways, they're innocent. Okay. So, that's the screenplay. So, it's not
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about these guys that uh that actually committed the murder, got away with it, and they're they're the
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great despisers. Right, so it's basically a lot about what they were going through. And like I
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said, there was this whole community that thought these guys were the number one
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um you know guys that murdered people and got away with it and now they're in Canada.
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And and most of these guys couldn't get a job or do anything. So at least they were trying to do something with their
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time. Mhm. Well, this will take us to January of 1995. So roughly 6 months after the
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murders. The Bellevue investigators they met with the RCMP the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
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Just to clue some people in if you're curious the the RCMP is both a federal and national police force of Canada.
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So it's basically like the CIA and the FBI all rolled into one. Yeah, I I guess you could say that. I
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would I would consider it to be more like the FBI of of the great United States.
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Sorry. America. Still got my coat on. The Bellevue detectives met with the RCMP's this is their serious crimes unit
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to discuss the case of the Rafay a triple homicide. Right. Bellevue investigators were requesting
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biological samples. They wanted hair, blood and saliva samples from Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay and they wanted the
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RCMP to help get them those samples. Well, and one of the reasons why was they found a a single hair strand
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on Atif's father on on the bed. bed. Which he was murdered from. So they wanted to test that.
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Something to compare it to to either maybe make that arrest they were seeking or eliminate them as suspects.
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Right. The RCMP the officers agreed to to do this to to obtain these biological samples for
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them. And then they offered up what they referred to as the Mr. Big strategy to obtain a confession.
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Right. So explain this because we don't actually have the Mr. Big strategy in Well, and that's what confused me
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when I when Okay, so I'll tell you my knowledge of this case as it were a month ago, right? I had I
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had heard of this case. I had probably seen it, I don't know on on Dateline or 48 Hours or one of those
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shows many, many years ago. What we're talking probably 10 years ago, I would guess.
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And so I remembered hearing of this story and it's a very interesting story. The the the thing is though, this Mr.
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Big strategy that they used that that we're going to talk about, I thought this was like a one-time deal. And then
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once we got we started looking at this case and throw it under the microscope 2 weeks
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ago and diving into this thing, found out that this is something they've used multiple time I mean time and time again
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to the to the point where it's just like a common it's a common thing that Canada
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does and it is it's going to sound strange. So, here's the the general idea of the Mr. Big operation is this.
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You you have some law enforcement that will pose as mobsters, basically. And what they're going to do is they're
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going to try to employ a suspect and they're going to give this person jobs. They're going to have them
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commit crimes and get paid for the for their actions. And through the course of building what they're going to do is try
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to build a relationship. You're going to build a employee-employer relationship.
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And through the course of building that relationship, because they're both criminals, well, you, my employee, you
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can confide in me things that you've done in your past and your dark past, Right.
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things that you're not proud of, things that you've gotten away with so that I know that you're a legit criminal like I
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am. And therefore, I'm going to eventually get this information on tape, uh whether
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it be audio or visual, and I'm going to be able to use that against you for your
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previous crimes. Right. And so, that's a form of entrapment. And we don't use that in the states.
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This is not admissible in courts. So, this is how it's going to go down in this particular incident. On April 10th,
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1995, the RCMP investigators, they intercepted a phone message confirming a salon appointment with Sebastian Burns.
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And we should probably point out that at this point, the RCMP have already tapped
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their phones from my understanding. And that's how they they acquired this phone
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message, right? So, they're going to use this information to make their move. When
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Sebastian left the salon, someone approached him. The person, a man, asked Sebastian for a ride somewhere. The
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stranger then took Sebastian to a bar and bought him a drink, you know, for his trouble, for driving him.
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Right. He claimed that his car broke down. He's from out of town. He's staying in this hotel.
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Can I get a ride? Give me a ride to the hotel. They probably have a lobby bar. I'll buy you
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a nice drink for the for the gesture. Right. Uh Sebastian told the stranger that he
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and his buddies, they were working on a screenplay. And Sebastian said that he didn't have a job
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and he needed financing to get this screenplay to to the big screen. Uh the stranger said he knew someone who
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could help Sebastian. Now, of course, ultimately, the goal here, like we said, is to get Sebastian to meet with the
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next guy up the chain. You know, this is going to be the the mobster or the boss guy.
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Right. So, but initially, they kind of played this guy off as not that he's going to get you jobs, but this guy
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possibly might just invest into your film. And so, when he meets, you know, this
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next guy, which is not higher up or lower, I think it's kind of a side step, but it's more like, well, yeah, I can't
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really finance this, but I'm going to give you some jobs. Yeah, and I think that the way that they
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described this person to Sebastian is that he was a connected businessman that we're going to introduce you to. But
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who he actually met was Sergeant Haslett of the RCMP working undercover, posing as a mobster.
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And their first meeting that he had, that Sergeant Haslett had with Sebastian, was in a strip club.
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Yeah. So Which is look, again, this is not uncommon, you know, as far as you know, a lot of artists know this or
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musicians know this, guys that are quote-unquote businessmen that want to help out artists or whatever.
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Uh sometimes they just want to be around it, you know, I've worked with a lot of
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you know, executive producers or guys that ran small rec- record companies that they they were just fans of music.
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Mhm. But they were but as equally fans of music, they wanted to be at the after-party after the show.
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Right. You know, they wanted to be like play rock star without actually being one. So
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you you know, trust me, there's been a million trips I've taken to Nashville or somewhere to audition for a record
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company. And where does the manager take you out afterwards? A strip club, you know, whether or not you want to go.
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That's where they take you. Avoid the ones that have a buffet. Now, I'll tell you
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I well, the other thing though the chicken. The other thing though, Captain, is so it's he's supposed to be a mobster,
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right? And um Right. It's very very Sopranos, I think, to take him to a strip club for for the
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initial meeting. very Hollywood. It kind of sells the part a little bit in it in a very cheesy way, in my
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opinion. Anyway, so this this quote-unquote crime boss, he tells Sebastian that um he has cash to invest
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in his screenplay, but Sebastian would have to earn it. He's got to earn his trust.
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Right. So, the crime boss said that he had some jobs for Sebastian. He also had jobs for
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a thief and Jimmy Mayoshi as well. Right, if they wanted them, yeah. So, Sebastian's first job
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would be driving a stolen vehicle from point A to point B. Mhm. And Sebastian agrees to this. He does
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the job and he gets paid $200 for that job. The next job was was a bit better. Well,
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Or more lucrative. Go ahead. Because Sebastian, you know, and his uppityness, that's what he is. I mean,
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he's you know, when you see interviews with him, he comes off so cocky sometimes.
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And I I don't think he knows that he's doing it. I don't think he knows it's as bad as it is. But, you know, he was kind
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of upset, you know, and I did something illegal and I got paid 200 bucks. Like, I'm
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taking a risk. I need there needs to be a bigger reward. Right? Right, he he feels like it's a bit grimy
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that that he has to do take such a big risk for such little reward. Right, so then what they do is the next
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one is they're going to launder money. They're taking money from one bank to another bank. And uh Jimmy Mayoshi,
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right, is going to be with him Yeah. Yeah, so and the idea is pretty simple instructions here. I think
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they have Sebastian going into one bank, Jimmy going into the next one, so forth
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and so on. At the end of the day, they're doing a pretty easy job laundering this money, just visiting
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banks, making bank stops, and they're paid two $2,000 cash for one day's worth of work.
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That is not bad money. Cash money. You know, I but don't launder money. Don't do that. I'm not suggesting that
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any listener launders money. So, through the early part of this relationship between Sebastian and this
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Mr. Big, I think he Did he go by the name Al or something like that, A L? I'm the one who wants to be with you.
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Oh, I I I get what you're saying. Okay. Okay, so anyway, uh during the course of this, Sebastian
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did not He didn't admit to any guilt in the triple homicide. Right. Uh but at some point, he does confide in
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the mobsters that if police did find something that could potentially tie him to the crimes, that he might want them
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to destroy that evidence. Yeah, kind of what happened was they're talking about, "Hey, you guys are the
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most famous people in Canada for, you know, {quote} {unquote} getting a, you know, away with murder."
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Mhm. And they're just like, "Yeah, well, they don't have any evidence." And then the
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guy, you know, when they say that, you know, Sebastian was saying, "Oh yeah, well, if
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they found evidence, we'd want you to get rid of that." That was implied by the Mr. Big op
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operation. Mhm. They're the ones that were saying, "Hey, yeah, but you know, like if they did
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find something, would you want us to get rid of that? We have that ability." that ability. We know some people.
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Well, they're going to up the stakes here. Um and what they do is they present a
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memo to to Sebastian. And this thing is it's not real, but it looks very real. It's on Bellevue police letterhead
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detailing the evidence linking Sebastian to the murders. And the mobsters offer to destroy this
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evidence, the the evidence that's listed in this memo. Well, and again, they're also not saying
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that they found it, that the Bellevue Police Department found this evidence. They're saying that this is a part of
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the evidence that they're claiming that they found cuz they're going to frame you.
00:21:04
Mhm. You see what I'm You know what I'm Mhm. So, a lot of people think it's this
00:21:07
clear-cut thing where Mr. Big said, "Hey, they got this evidence. You're busted." No, cuz Sebastian was like,
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"They don't have evidence cuz we didn't do the crime." Do you know what I'm saying?
00:21:19
Right. And so, then they were saying, "Well, it doesn't matter if you did the crime or
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not. This is what they're going to use. This is what they're going to say they have.
00:21:26
they're setting you up. Mhm. So, let's be clear about that. Mhm. Um so, they're offering to destroy this
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this evidence. Mhm. They're offering to make this problem go away for for Seba- Sebastian, sorry.
00:21:42
But, in order to do so, Mr. Big, he wants Sebastian to tell them exactly what happened in the Raffay
00:21:49
house the night of the murders. So, now this takes us to July 18th, 1995, just about 1 year after the
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murder. Sebastian meets with Haslett. He meets with Mr. Big, the quote-unquote undercover mob dude.
00:22:04
Right. At the Ocean Point Resort, at some hotel. And they have hidden cameras rolling
00:22:10
here, set up to film this whole thing. And Sebastian walks into the hotel room. He takes off his shoes. He gets
00:22:18
comfortable on the couch or love seat. And he's a he's a cocky SOB. And he starts talking. And I'm not sure
00:22:25
if it's if it's both videos, uh but on on one at least one of them, he's having it looks like he's drinking a beer while
00:22:34
he's talking with this Mr. Big. Well, I think they filmed him for a few hours. Yeah. And he he starts confessing to the
00:22:42
murders. And we will not get we'll get into what was said in just a minute, but um
00:22:48
and we'll go through some of the questions and the answers as well. But, the key thing here is after he's done
00:22:53
confessing to Mr. Big, the next day he returns. The next day Sebastian comes back to the mobster. This time he's
00:23:01
bringing his buddy Atef with him to the crime boss to tell his side of the story.
00:23:07
Right. Which ends up being recorded as well. Their buddy Jimmy Myoshi takes uh ends up talking with the crime boss
00:23:14
as well. And this seals it. This seals the deal. Sebastian, Atef, and Myoshi, they end up
00:23:20
being arrested for things that they said to Mr. Big on tape. When arrested, immediately Sebastian is going to say
00:23:29
that he was lying. Right. And that undercover officers um had intimidated him into making a false
00:23:36
confession. All right. Bloody hell. Cheers me, matey. All right, Captain. Let's get into this
00:24:02
confession, and we got a lot of stuff to get to. I want to kind of give a quick little um short version of how they
00:24:10
confessed to the murders, what they actually did according to their confession that was videotaped in front
00:24:16
of this Mr. Big character, right? Um so, what what Sebastian is saying is that we
00:24:23
know that they went out to dinner. They go to a movie, and then they go out to another club afterward. And we have
00:24:30
these people that can confirm having seen them at the restaurant, having waited on them at the restaurant, having
00:24:36
taken their drink order at the movie after I'm sorry, at the club after the movie.
00:24:40
Mhm. But basically what what Sebastian's going to say is that the time that they
00:24:45
were supposed to be in the movie theater watching the movie is when they returned
00:24:50
to the Refaay home and killed Atef's parents and sister. Right. And he says that he he was the one that
00:24:58
used the bat, that he attacked the teeth's mother first and then he went and killed the father and then he killed
00:25:05
well attacked the teeth's sister to the point where she was left for dead. Right, and he claims that Atif was
00:25:11
basically in another room the whole time. Yeah, he's he's kind of setting up and
00:25:16
making the break-in thing look like it actually happened. He he would be the one I'm guessing tipping over the boxes
00:25:22
and opening drawers. Mhm. They clean themselves up, Sebastian took a shower and then they make sure that
00:25:29
they get back to that location where they are then seen again after the movie. So their whereabouts are
00:25:35
accounted for. They have alibis for what they were doing that night making them look like they would have been
00:25:41
impossible for them to have killed the Refay family. Mhm. That's their confession.
00:25:47
Let's go let's go through let's go through this a little bit more because we obviously this is very
00:25:52
obvious that it makes them look guilty, but what we have now we have a lot of people screaming that no, there are
00:25:59
portions of that confession that that actually point to their innocence. Okay. And because
00:26:06
we have Sebastian saying all this stuff is a lie. Yeah, we confessed to Mr. Big and to his crew, but all this stuff was
00:26:13
a lie. Well, right and just to give a you know, so they're going to question and have
00:26:18
Sebastian confess, but then they're going to have Atif confess as well. And if you take those two stories, there are
00:26:24
a couple things that don't line up between Atif's story and Sebastian's story. And then when you take their
00:26:30
buddy Jimmy comes in um his story he doesn't really cooperate much at all. He doesn't really say much
00:26:37
at all. He basically You almost could say he doesn't confess. I mean he he's he doesn't confess to any
00:26:42
wrong wrongdoing himself and I think at the most that he confesses for as far as
00:26:48
Atif and Sebastian are concerned, I think he kind of points to one. Right. And And says, you know, who did it? Well,
00:26:54
that guy right there. Right. And it's again important to know that once they're arrested, Sebastian,
00:27:00
Atif, and Jimmy all will state, "Hey, we lied. We're We're innocent." So, the first thing that is pointed out
00:27:08
by by all the people stating that these young men are innocent and this confession is not real is Sebastian's
00:27:16
clothing and what he says in his confession regarding his clothing. Now, this is all taken from the RCMP's
00:27:23
transcription of the actual uh confession. Okay. So, regarding the clothing, Sebastian's first explanation to Al, I
00:27:32
was right, Mr. Big is going by Al, uh is that he disposed of his clothes he wore
00:27:39
when he murdered the Rafay family. Uh they point out that this is false. Uh police confirmed that Sebastian wore the
00:27:45
same clothes both before and after the murders were committed. Uh during the transcription, during the confession, he
00:27:52
says, uh Al asked, "Bloody clothes. Blood on your clothes. Why not? Why didn't you have any blood on your
00:27:58
clothes?" Burns states, "Because they were gone. He had disposed of these clothes." "Where did you get rid of
00:28:05
them?" "In like a dumpster downtown." Right. So, we know that part of his story is a
00:28:10
lie. But the other thing too is at some point he also states that he committed the
00:28:15
crimes naked. Yes. So, again, maybe he's lying that he got rid of them. Maybe he's not. Maybe he
00:28:23
took the clothes off, killed them in the underwear. There was two sets of underwear that were found in
00:28:28
a washing machine Mhm. uh in Atif's house, supposedly belonging to Atif and Sebastian. There was no
00:28:36
um physical evidence on those clothings. They weren't washed. Mhm. So, uh to me that was placed there by
00:28:44
somebody. Yeah, and then when he tells, he being Sebastian, when he tells his story to Al
00:28:50
changing his story that he committed the murders without any clothes on, that's when he says, you know, that's what the
00:28:57
shower was for. He took Burns states that he took a shower to clean off and his exact words are, "Took a shower to
00:29:04
clean off, you know, blood and that kind of stuff. Um, yeah." Right. Yeah, and and then the thing about Atif
00:29:11
when they talk about the clothing with Atif, he's saying, "Oh, yeah, well, some of the stuff we threw in dumpsters, but
00:29:17
some of the stuff we threw out the window." Now, we should talk about the blood the window, but threw out the window of
00:29:22
a moving car. Right. And what we should really talk about is the evidence that was in Atif's
00:29:28
father's room. Uh, based off of the the blood splatter or spatter Spatter. Um, evidence, there's possibly two
00:29:39
definitely two individuals, but most likely three individuals in that room, which again, we have three suspects, so
00:29:47
that wouldn't rule them out, but again, when Sebastian is telling his confession, he's saying, "Well, Atif is
00:29:54
not even in the room at the time." So, certain things just don't line up. But we also have Sebastian stating that
00:30:01
Jimmy Myoshi did not participate in the murders. Right. So, according to Sebastian's confession,
00:30:08
there's only two people committing those crimes. Right, and like I said, there's evidence
00:30:13
There's evidence to suggest that there could be three people in the room. I want to be clear about that because
00:30:19
here's one thing that I have Right, here's one thing that I here's one big problem I have with
00:30:25
with this case in particular and we see this with other cases. When you get a whole mob of people claiming that
00:30:31
somebody's innocent, they start skewing things just as much as we've seen police skew things and media skew
00:30:39
things. They skew it in a way that's going to be presented to you that that they totally got this wrong and here is
00:30:45
why. And there there are websites, there are newspaper articles, there are um there's plenty of stuff out there on
00:30:52
this case that have presented that it's factual that three people had to have been in that room.
00:30:57
Right. Yeah. And and we should be clear, it's evidence suggests the possibility of
00:31:02
three people being in the room. Definitely two, possibly three. Well, and also we we talked about the
00:31:07
hair that was found on the bed. That did not match any of these individuals and it didn't match any of
00:31:14
the victims, it didn't match any of the suspects. So, but you could argue, one could make an
00:31:21
argument that uh that's either the actual killer or this is some piece of DNA evidence
00:31:29
that was that randomly got there. Well, right, because they didn't they were new to the area. So, you know, there was
00:31:37
there's going to be DNA of whoever's been in that house, you know, and whoever lived in the house before them.
00:31:44
Well, and I think um I heard one one expert pointed out the best when he when to me anyway regarding that hair.
00:31:52
And he stated that, you know, could this been a hair that Ateef's father uh somehow it got
00:32:00
you know, he sat down in his car seat and this hair was on the car seat, got transferred to his pants, and then got
00:32:06
transferred to the bed. Right. That's a possibility. Could this hair have been a hair that was on the movie
00:32:12
theater thea- movie theater seat that Sebastian was sitting in, transferred to his pants,
00:32:18
and then somehow transferred to the bed either during the course of the attack or during the course of finding the
00:32:26
bodies. Well, and I think it's back to the original point that you're trying to make though. If we have eyewitnesses
00:32:33
claiming they saw Sebastian and Ateef in this certain outfit, and then after the
00:32:37
movies you see them in the same outfits that you would think that this would be part of their master plan and that
00:32:43
Sebastian would remember this. So, when he was telling Mr. Big, "Hey, this is how it went down." he would have said,
00:32:49
"Oh, and I came up with this clever thing where I'll take off my clothes, I'll kill them in the nude, I'll take a
00:32:55
shower, and I'll put these clothes back on." That would be pretty simple to remember.
00:32:59
He obviously didn't remember that or it didn't happen, and that and that's where
00:33:05
the story start not making a lot of sense. Yeah, and I and I wanted to be clear and
00:33:10
point out how random that hair could have been, how possibly random that hair could have been according to that
00:33:16
expert's opinion. Um So, that doesn't necessarily rule them out, either. Correct. It doesn't rule them out, but
00:33:24
it also could point to an un unknown suspect. Right. The next thing we need to talk about in regards to the
00:33:31
confession is the baseball bat, the weapon that was believed to have been used to kill the Rafe family.
00:33:37
Mhm. And the concern with this is Al, Mr. Big, wants to know what happened with the bat.
00:33:45
Right. Uh and where did you get the bat? Well, in their confession Sebastian and Atif have a hard time
00:33:54
explaining where they got the bat. Right. I think at one point Sebastian says uh I may have been the one that
00:34:01
purchased the bat. Yeah. And uh I believe Atif says that the bat was just lying around.
00:34:08
Right. And then I think the disposal how they disposed the bat was also a little
00:34:13
fishy. Yes, because this is where they're talking about those dumpsters, where they state that the they won't find the
00:34:21
bat uh because we put it in one of those dumpsters, dumpsters that were downtown.
00:34:26
To which Mr. Big is going to explain to them, "Well, you know, what day did you commit these
00:34:32
murders? He says, well, it was a Tuesday. So, we're dumping these items on Tuesday night in these dumpsters. And
00:34:38
Mr. Big says, well, you just hope in that situation that they they didn't empty those dumpsters that Tuesday
00:34:45
morning because then they wouldn't come back until the following Tuesday and that evidence could sit there and could
00:34:50
be found through the course of the the the week. Right. Same thing with the the VCR as well.
00:34:58
What did you do with the VCR? We buried it in a dumpster. And what do we mean by
00:35:02
buried? It's like they they got in the dumpster amongst the trash and rubbish inside and they buried these items in
00:35:12
the trash. Right. And then and then you come back and you make a 911 call and the police come and you but
00:35:19
you don't look disheveled. so fresh and so clean clean. Al is worried about Mr. Big is worried
00:35:25
about fingerprints. And this is when Sebastian says there will be no fingerprints because he wore gloves. Mr.
00:35:32
Big continues to express concern that later the bat could be located and that Sebastian's prints would be on that bat.
00:35:40
Right. Or that they'd be able to trace how he bought the bat. To this point Sebastian tells Mr. Big
00:35:46
that the bat was shrink wrapped in plastic wrap during the murders. Which this is scientifically incorrect. This
00:35:54
this could not have happened because there were small pieces of the bat that were lodged
00:36:00
in the wall at the scene of the murders and there was no Surrounding. Right. There would be wrap that would be
00:36:08
have been found with that and that was not the case. Before we move on from this item of discussion, while we're
00:36:15
talking about gloves, we should point out that later a fingerprint expert testified
00:36:22
that the murderer did not wear gloves. That that this person this expert would have found glove marks
00:36:29
Right. Okay. at the scene. So, just another part of his confession that doesn't make a lot of sense.
00:36:34
One thing that will be pointed out time and time again is that the stories change, okay? Whether it be that you're
00:36:42
speaking with Sebastian one-on-one during this confession tape Mhm. or whether you be it that you're
00:36:48
speaking with the chief, that that Sebastian's story will change as he goes along. And the chief's story
00:36:55
will change as he goes along. I agree with this because there is some different information that each of them
00:37:01
are putting out from time to time. There's one thing that I have a big problem with though, when people want to
00:37:07
point out that the stories change. Right. Is if anybody has watched this videotaped
00:37:15
confession and if for those of you who have not, just to to explain it and describe it
00:37:22
in, you know, better for you, it's not like tuning into the garage and the captain and Nick are going through a
00:37:30
story. We're going through a murder and how it happened from from the very beginning all the way through the end.
00:37:37
Right. It's not like that at all. That's not this confession. This confession is we
00:37:43
have Sebastian sitting on a couch and he's being asked questions. Mhm. He's being asked a question. Sometimes
00:37:50
he's giving one or two word answers and other times he might give you a sentence, but he at no point is giving
00:37:57
expansive answers. Right. He's at no point giving a whole a complete story. Rarely does he even get through one
00:38:06
point completely. Mhm. And Mr. Big, who is the one that is the expert in drawing out these confessions,
00:38:13
confessions that he he knows is going to be videotaped and later shown to investigators and then potentially to a
00:38:21
jury once this thing goes to trial. He's jumping all over the place with his questions and in my opinion it's He's
00:38:30
like, "Hey, what what happened to the bat?" And he gets like a two-word answer and he's like, "Okay, so why no blood on
00:38:35
your clothes?" And gets a a short answer then he's like, "Okay, what about fingerprints on the bat?"
00:38:42
Yeah. And it's it what what I hear to me, what I'm hearing in this confession, so
00:38:48
especially with Sebastian, is not so much a story that is changing completely. I almost feel like on most
00:38:57
of the points, not all, I want to be clear, not all the points, but on most of the points, I feel like what I'm
00:39:03
getting is a little bit of the truth and then later I might be getting a little more of the
00:39:09
truth on that exact point. Yeah, possibly and it's a weird thing too because you have a cocky individual
00:39:16
with Sebastian which is, you know, thinks he's, you know, holier than thou, maybe one of the smartest people in the
00:39:21
world and then you have these cops that also think that they're brilliant as well trying to
00:39:27
corner him. And uh you know, is the whole confession is just is really hard to watch because the acting of the
00:39:33
police officers are so or law enforcement is so awful. They they try to come off as you know,
00:39:40
these mobster member guys and this comes off so poorly. I mean, everything is [ __ ] this and [ __ ] that, you know, like
00:39:48
it's it's just so it it's like this. It's basically like they tell them at parts
00:39:55
uh of the investigation that I killed people, right? But instead of saying, "Well, you know, I've killed people,
00:40:01
too." They're like, "I killed that [ __ ] and I stabbed him in the [ __ ] face and I shot him right
00:40:05
in his face and I butt [ __ ] him with his [ __ ] gun." I mean, it's just so over the top that one, how can
00:40:14
Sebastian, if he was so smart, not see through this [ __ ] Well, and it's weird because I know that
00:40:21
these officers have I shouldn't say that I know. I wasn't there with them, but I'm assuming that
00:40:26
they've received extensive training in this area. It's so bad. But really and I know I referenced
00:40:33
Sopranos earlier. I got I love that show. I miss that show. But I really think you could have you could have sat
00:40:40
a few people down and had them watch a season of Sopranos, give them a leather jacket and a
00:40:46
handgun and send them into this hotel room and they could have pulled off the same
00:40:50
they could have pulled off the same um Right. act, let's say. Mhm. Well, and let's let's be devil's
00:40:57
advocate for a second. So, why would Atif why would Sebastian confess to a crime that they didn't commit? What's
00:41:05
their motivation? Well, the motivation is they want to get financed for this screenplay. They want
00:41:11
to they want to put their art on the big screen and they need dollars to do so. And they really believe and I think
00:41:20
Sebastian's even quoted as saying, you know, we believe that if we were in fact found innocent for this crime, well,
00:41:28
then our our movie's going to make millions and millions of dollars. Right. And so
00:41:34
20 to 30 million is what he said. Is that what he said? And you know it's funny that you you say that
00:41:40
he Sebastian may think that he's not only the smartest guy in the room, but possibly one of the smartest people on
00:41:46
the planet. I think he even says that at some point during the confession. Right.
00:41:51
When he's asked if he's how smart he thinks he is, he says you know, well One of the most smartest people on the
00:41:57
people on the planet. Yeah. I said that because I did the research. Um keep up. Uh anyways, that's I don't know
00:42:05
if that's their motivation cuz I I really think their motivation from the interviews that I was listening
00:42:11
to with a T that he's been doing lately. Um I think he did one with the fifth estate. Their motivation more was, "Hey,
00:42:20
I got involved with these bad dudes and now they for me to do more stuff for them, they need to know that uh
00:42:30
we're we're reliable people that they we can believe them." And so as much as they're going okay, so now
00:42:39
you need to tell me about these murders. They were afraid that if they didn't or this is what they
00:42:46
claim. Sebastian and Latif were afraid that if we don't say we committed these murders, that
00:42:53
these guys will think that we're just some chumps that are going to rat them out. And they have given us example
00:43:00
after example that we've killed people. And a lot of times when he's saying that
00:43:05
they killed people, he's saying, "Oh, well, this guy crossed me, so I killed him." Or this guy tried to turn me in,
00:43:12
so I killed him. So it's it's really um one is nefarious and one is irresponsible for when Mr. Big when you
00:43:20
hear them talk and they say, "Did you ever threaten these guys?" Mhm. They say, "No, we we never threatened
00:43:27
them." No, but during the confession you just keep bringing up that you killed people that told on you. You know what I
00:43:34
mean? And that you've killed all these people. So it's not wrong to have these young adults that are not they're not so
00:43:44
street smart to believe that. And to believe that you're capable of murder. And if I did you know, I'm just going to
00:43:53
tell you this to to get you off my back. Does that make sense? Well, they they made every attempt to
00:43:58
sell that point and they being Mr. Big and the people working for him or supposedly working for him. And I'll
00:44:06
give you some more specific detail regarding this intimidation factor. Because I
00:44:12
I wholeheartedly agree with the intimidation factor here. I think this is I think this is wrong. And you and I had
00:44:19
a conversation last week and one thing we were talking about was, you know, when we talked about the Yogurt Shop
00:44:25
Murders from Austin, Texas. They got confessions from a couple of those from two of those four guys. And
00:44:33
one of the confessions was obtained after an officer took an unloaded handgun and put it to the back of the
00:44:40
head of of one of the people he was trying to get confessed. This to me, while not that dramatic,
00:44:48
this to me is borderline the same thing. Right, but they got guns on the table. Right, and that's what I'm going to I'm
00:44:53
going to get into. This is borderline the same thing. We we have Sebastian A direct quote from Sebastian
00:45:00
is "I believe that if I crossed them, they would have killed me." And So, we have Mr. Big. We also have this
00:45:09
character named Gary. Gary can be seen Yeah, he can be seen on and off camera during the confessions. And at one
00:45:17
point, Gary tells Sebastian that he was a murderer and that Mr. Big had hired him to contract
00:45:26
some kills. Right. Gary also says "You want to know what I did my time for?" Gary tells Sebastian that he
00:45:33
toasted a guy. Oh, Gary. Yeah. And he he says, "You want to know how solid Mr. Big is? Well, when it came
00:45:41
time for Gary to go to court and there was a person that could testify against him putting him in prison he states
00:45:49
"Well, that person ain't around anymore. So, you know that business gets taken care of." Gary further explained this to
00:45:57
Sebastian that Mr. Big had paid $80,000 to kill this witness. Right. Then at one point you have a third
00:46:05
undercover officer pretending to be an employee of Gary and Mr. Big. He enters the room
00:46:11
to and then he throws down two handguns on the table in front of Sebastian. And indicated that a person had just
00:46:19
been shot with one of those guns. So, when we when we reference the intimidation factor here, it's real.
00:46:27
This I mean this is some Yeah, and it's more real for like I said, not street wise young
00:46:34
adults. It's more real for any two people sitting in that room. And but here's where I have a problem with
00:46:43
Right, but what I'm saying is if you had a couple guys that are a little more street wise, like within a few
00:46:48
conversations you'd go something's up with this, you know? So I see what you're saying. That that this
00:46:54
is a ruse, something's not right here. Right, right. I smell I smell bacon. Even as smart as Sebastian thinks he is,
00:47:01
he he he certainly was outsmarted in this situation. He's a real dumbass. The problem that I have with Sebastian
00:47:09
saying I agree with I agree with the intimidation to some extent. What I what I have a problem with is
00:47:18
when I see you on camera and his I mean his mannerisms. At no point at no point on camera does
00:47:27
he appear to be nervous. Does he appear to be intimidated? At times he's smiling
00:47:33
when he tells the order of of who he killed and and how he killed the individuals.
00:47:40
Yeah, but again, you can't read too much into that because I mean the absurdity of what he's saying could be hilarious
00:47:47
to him. So, it's really hard to like go you know, look if he didn't do these crimes and look everybody says, well,
00:47:54
how can you even say this stuff? You knew them. But you're you're in a hotel room, you just
00:48:01
did money laundering, you just What the hell are you doing anyways? But now you're sitting there explaining
00:48:07
that you killed these people. And the ridiculousness of it, like just because you're smiling or even laughing. I mean,
00:48:14
Atif did the same thing. I you know, it's hard to comment on that stuff cuz we don't know what's going on
00:48:21
inside their head. know what's going on in his head, but I'm going to read into it. I'm going to
00:48:25
comment on it because I One thing that we've both agreed upon is that one thing that Sebastian's very proud of,
00:48:32
self-proud of, is how intelligent he thinks he is. And when he's when he's answering these
00:48:39
questions, he's lighting up in a way where he's like I'm To me, this is what it looks like.
00:48:45
The guy that thinks, "Oh, here I am. The guy that pulled off these three murders,
00:48:51
and now I'm the one that's getting to school this hardened criminal. I'm getting to school this
00:48:58
career criminal on how I pulled this off and why I'm so smart. Oh, I did it without any clothes on so I wouldn't get
00:49:05
any blood on my clothes. Why didn't you have blood on you? Took a shower." Why you know, what When did the deed go
00:49:13
down? During the movie. You know, and you see him light up when he says these things. That's Sorry, but that's my
00:49:19
opinion. That's what I see on on the tape. And the sad part two is that I see that from
00:49:26
Atif as well. When he's when he's asked to give his story, he's speaking specifically about his family, whether
00:49:33
he was involved or not, he's smiling at times. He seems to be enjoying confessing to
00:49:40
to this. Again, you have to take into account that these are edited versions of the
00:49:44
confession tapes. I mean, multiple times before the confession starts, Sebastian
00:49:49
still denies that they had anything to do with it. Multiple times. I think it was something ridiculous like
00:49:55
10-15 times where he said they had nothing to do with it. Mhm. When Atif is brought in, it's to hey,
00:50:00
these guys basically said like they would kill me and kill everybody else if we like we got it they need to know
00:50:06
we're on the up and up. Again, it's a edited confession. What a lot of a lot of stuff you don't see is
00:50:12
how much he's fishing for answers. You see it a little bit on the confession tapes.
00:50:17
He being Sebastian or Atif? Atif. But both of them because there's times that they're both in the room
00:50:23
together and when they have a question and they're like, well, the bat was there or no, I bought the bat. There's
00:50:29
like discrepancies within the conversation. Mhm. Like that they don't know. Oh, I think we threw those out. I don't
00:50:36
know what we did with those. Oh, I hope these guys don't figure us out because if they figure us out, we're dead. So, I
00:50:42
think there's some acting that had to go along. Whether they're telling the truth or they're
00:50:47
lying, I think uh they were in a in a situation where they tried had to act a little tougher than what they were.
00:50:54
Now, to in all fairness, you know, I there was some mannerisms that I saw that could have pointed towards innocence. I
00:51:03
should point that out if I'm going to point out the other, right? So, um you referenced Atif. There are several
00:51:09
times where, you know, Atif is sitting in a chair and then to his left is Sebastian who's on the love seat.
00:51:16
Right. And there are several times where Atif is giving an answer and he's kind of slow giving the answer and I see his
00:51:24
eyes they're not wandering, they're looking at Sebastian and it's almost like Help me out here.
00:51:30
Is he looking Yeah, is he looking for help with his answer or is he looking for approval whether he got it the
00:51:36
information correct or not? And like you pointed out, by the time that Atif is confessing to
00:51:42
this, he's had a whole night of talking with Sebastian the night before before he's brought back the next morn you
00:51:48
know, before he's brought there the next morning to tell his side of the story. So, reasons why they would give this
00:51:54
confession, but yet still be innocent that that persons point out often are that they're factually inaccurate
00:52:02
statements that they gave, that they do not contain realistic detail, that the confessions are based entirely
00:52:09
on media reports and various prompts and suggestions from Mr. Big himself. Mhm. Um but one thing that's pointed out is
00:52:18
that the confessions contain absolutely no holdback evidence. Evidence or information that only the killer would
00:52:26
have known. I would I want to address that last that last little uh box there before we check that one off.
00:52:35
My concerns with that is is there any holdback evidence? You know, I mean they couldn't
00:52:43
they couldn't give a confession that would contain holdback evidence if there is none. And and we know that in cases
00:52:50
that police like to do that that you would ideally have holdback evidence that only the killer or killers would
00:52:57
know. But we also know from having looked at plenty of these that sometimes there
00:53:02
just nothing got held back. Everything was out there. Everything was reported. Everything was in the media. All right,
00:53:09
on July 31st, 1995, this is after having the confessions, Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay, they are charged with three
00:53:18
counts of aggravated first-degree murder and Jimmy Myoshi is charged with conspiracy to commit murder.
00:53:25
Right. They are incarcerated in Vancouver, Canada. Between the years of 1995 and
00:53:32
2001, they remained incarcerated in maximum-security pre-trial facilities in British
00:53:39
Columbia. That's six years. Now, why would they stay in prison for that long? Well,
00:53:46
there's several reasons, but one being that they're probably facing the death penalty once they return to the United
00:53:52
States. There's usually some negotiation that goes down between the countries before they're willing to send somebody
00:53:59
back if they are in fact going to face the death penalty. Right. And some interesting things here
00:54:05
is so they argue and basically what the state of Washington says, "Hey, we're not going to seek the death penalty.
00:54:12
Mhm. So therefore, send them to us. So Right. and basically, you know, Canada um outlawed the death penalty a while
00:54:20
ago. So, okay, that makes some sense. So now we're sending our citizens down there.
00:54:25
But the weirdest thing about it was the way they got these confessions were based on Canada law.
00:54:33
It's not legal here in the United States. Right. As you pointed out, the Mr. Big
00:54:38
strategy. So So when they go into trial, pretty quickly they know that these confession
00:54:43
tapes are going to be you know, allowed in the courtroom. After having been incarcerated in the
00:54:49
fall of 1995, Jimmy Miyoshi, he obtains immunity for his charge of conspiracy to commit
00:54:55
murder in return for statements that would incriminate Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay.
00:55:02
Now, the trial begins in Seattle, Washington. This is in November of 2003. On the stand, Miyoshi, he recounts a
00:55:10
discussion with Sebastian and with Atif regarding how they would commit the murders.
00:55:17
He states that he remembered hearing something about gassing the house and remembered a discussion about using a
00:55:23
baseball bat. When asked why a baseball bat, he says, "I guess that it was it's a quick and painless way of killing
00:55:32
someone." A part of Miyoshi's statements and testimony that I think is the most damning
00:55:39
and I'm sure the jurors felt the same way is when he's asked about a conversation of of their plan. A big
00:55:45
part of their plan was that Sebastian and Atef wanted to be in the Rafay home and stay there for a few days before
00:55:54
committing the murder. Mhm. Because this would explain away any fingerprint evidence, any hair evidence,
00:56:02
any fibers, any DNA that may have been found of theirs at the crime scene. Yeah, that's kind of
00:56:10
fishy, but um I think the point that people forget about Jimmy is that when he was
00:56:18
arrested, when he didn't have pressure on him, when the death penalty wasn't hanging over his head,
00:56:26
his friends were innocent. They were lying about these confessions. His to me, his demeanor during his taped
00:56:34
confession was that he did not want to say this, that he didn't want to go along with
00:56:39
this idea, and that he didn't believe that his friends were guilty of this crime.
00:56:44
That's my gut feeling. So, now that he's being pressured that, "Hey, if you don't
00:56:49
cooperate, we're you're going to be facing the death penalty." Which we all knew was a lie anyways, again, another
00:56:55
tactic of you know, strong-arming somebody into saying something that I don't know if it's true or not. So, just
00:57:02
because that there was that thing hanging over his head, the death penalty hanging over his head, I don't know if I
00:57:07
believe anything this guy says. On May 26th, 2004, Sebastian and Atef are convicted of three counts of
00:57:15
first-degree murder. Yeah, they both give kind of different statements. Um their final statements, Sebastian's
00:57:21
final statement's like over 2 hours long. It's a fair It's at least 2 hours long.
00:57:27
And uh his is more that this was unfair and and was unjust. And um blah blah blah blah. And Atif's is more
00:57:36
like, you know, you know, saddened by all this. Yeah, his is I loved my family, I loved
00:57:42
my father, I loved my mother, I wouldn't have killed them. Um I don't know why anybody else would have killed them. Um
00:57:48
so his his statements sound remorseful. Um and Sebastian's don't sound remorseful,
00:57:55
but if you believe what he's saying, they don't need to sound remorseful because he's not guilty of anything.
00:58:01
Yeah, but everything Sebastian says makes him sound like a dick face, you know. So do you think that they got it right?
00:58:07
Do you think that the jurors got it right? I don't know. How about you start this one off?
00:58:14
Uh this is uh if if I start to tailspin out of control, reel me back in here. Okay.
00:58:21
So uh I don't know I Look, Captain, I don't know. I really don't know. And and and that's full
00:58:29
disclosure, uh complete honesty, I don't know because here's what. Chicken butt.
00:58:35
My gut tells me Mhm. that they they probably did it. That's what my gut tells me. The problem is I
00:58:42
can't find evidence to support that gut feeling. Right. Um here's the thing. I I do want to go
00:58:50
through a couple of a couple of things that that may or may not point to their guilt.
00:58:55
Yeah, go go with what you know, leads you to that. Cuz I I do I do like chopping down some
00:59:01
of these things that people are like, "They're innocent. They're innocent." You know, and some of it like we said
00:59:06
about uh how things are presented. And I'm going to go back to the there had to be three killers situation in the room
00:59:14
with Mr. Rafeay when he was killed. And the reason why they state that there would have been three kill three people
00:59:21
in that room is there's one person swinging the murder weapon. Mhm. There is a pillow
00:59:28
that because of blood spatter evidence we know was moved. It would have been on the bed during the early part of the
00:59:35
murder and it would have been moved to the floor later while the murder is still being
00:59:41
committed. Right. So, there's no blood for a while, then there's some blood evidence.
00:59:48
Why there would be a third person is because in a location where a person would not have been able to move that
00:59:54
pillow, there is a there's a shadow, almost an outline of a person. Right. The and because there's blood spatter
01:00:02
around that shadow, around that silhouette. So, that would put one creating the silhouette, one moving the
01:00:08
pillow, one swinging the murder weapon. I don't believe that to be the situation
01:00:15
at all. I absolutely believe all this points to me is that there were two people in that room.
01:00:21
Right. And reason being is Okay, think about when you're taught CPR. The first thing that they tell you
01:00:29
is that if you find somebody unresponsive and they are in a bed, well, you need to get them and place
01:00:35
them on a hard surface before you start performing the CPR. Why? Because as soon
01:00:41
as you do that, once you start pushing down on the victim, they're going to the bed is going to
01:00:47
create them so they start bouncing or pushing back up. It's just natural. It's just going to happen. So, you put them
01:00:54
on a hard surface. Think about if somebody were swinging a bat on the on a victim laying in a bed,
01:01:01
it's going to create the same motion, a quake effect that would move the pillow from the bed to the floor. So, I don't
01:01:09
know that there had to have been a third person in the room for that to have take
01:01:12
place. Mhm. The other thing that I question is we know the order of who was attacked. We
01:01:20
know that the mother was attacked first and then the father and then the sister.
01:01:25
Again, I don't know I don't have a full understanding of her autism, but here's one thing that I I wonder.
01:01:33
And I hope that they check this with the blood spatter evidence. But is there a chance that the second
01:01:39
person in the room didn't have to be a killer? Is there a chance that she for some reason came into that room and
01:01:47
witnessed a portion of that murder before she was attacked? There's a There's a likelihood that you have this
01:01:53
evidence out there. There may have only be one guilty person in the situation. So, what you're saying is that you think
01:02:01
there's a possibility that this crime was committed by one individual and there was only one individual at the
01:02:07
crime scene. Possibly. I I wouldn't rule that out. I hope that they checked uh the chief's sister for certain
01:02:15
evidence, DNA evidence of her father. If that makes any sense. Yeah, I think the other thing here
01:02:22
though too is uh if there was two individuals, right? We have a lot of blood in that shower.
01:02:29
Mhm. That to me could could have been one person, but it also makes sense that if
01:02:35
there was multiple people there and they decided to clean up before they left, then that would explain the amount of
01:02:42
blood Yeah. that was washed up. Yeah, I'm just simply stating that for people saying that three people had to
01:02:47
have commit committed this crime and that therefore rules out the chief and Sebastian. I'm saying I don't believe
01:02:53
that one bit. I I need more proof that that more than two people were there. Was it committed by one person or two
01:03:00
people? I don't know, but that that's the most I've gotten to as far as as number of perpetrators go. The other
01:03:07
questionable thing that I have here So, those items might point towards more towards their guilt, you know, if if
01:03:15
there were only two people there. Mhm. Um but one thing that might point towards their innocence, and this is one
01:03:21
thing that I had that I can't get over, is the amount of overkill on the father.
01:03:27
Mhm. Okay, so they point out, they being the police, that this is this points to
01:03:33
somebody knowing the victim. That that that A lot of times in crimes we will see see overkill because there's a deep
01:03:39
hatred from the person killing the person to the the victim. There's a deep hatred.
01:03:45
Well, not necessarily in this case. It they the the the perpetrator may in fact have
01:03:51
known them. It doesn't have to be somebody close on their inner circle. If Sebastian was in fact the one that was
01:03:57
swinging the murder weapon, what evidence do we have that he hated this man so much that he hit him 40 or
01:04:04
50 times? Right. What Why would he go to overkill? It seems to me like they if if in fact they killed the Refae
01:04:13
family, they simply did it for money. That they simply did it to uh live together and have some money to
01:04:20
finance their their goal, their dream. Right. I I guess. Overkill is not necessary.
01:04:28
That's just to remind you that that's what uh Atif kept on saying in his confession was
01:04:34
uh yeah, we did this for money, I guess. Right. to end everything with Right, and that's what I mean. There
01:04:40
there would be no reason for overkill. Now, let me throw this at you. We had those three tips. All three of those
01:04:47
tips involve some form of of what you could say is an easy leap to religious hatred.
01:04:54
That somebody could hate another person for religious reasons. Why would there be overkill on one victim, the
01:05:02
father, and not overkill on the other two victims? If you had somebody that was just busting into a place for a
01:05:09
thrill kill, you would see overkill on all three of these individuals. Right, they're trying to make a
01:05:14
statement. If you were looking and believed that monetary this was just a money that money was the motive, you
01:05:23
wouldn't see overkill on any of these victims. Whoever killed Mr. Rifaat hated that man
01:05:30
very badly. Right. Which those Which to me I need I need you would have to point
01:05:36
out reasons why that would mean why that would implicate Sebastian. Right, or And I don't see those. I just don't see
01:05:44
those. And I don't have a problem with the jury. I don't have a problem with their final conclusion with with the
01:05:49
guilty verdict on both of these guys. And the reason being is I think the way that this case was presented to them and
01:05:57
what was presented to them in court I think it would be hard for me not to have given a guilty verdict as well.
01:06:06
What I do have a problem with is this whole confession to begin with. I don't think it should have ever been allowed
01:06:13
in the courtroom. And I think without this confession you you have no way to convict these
01:06:20
guys. There's no way there's no way you could get me to go, "Yep, they're guilty."
01:06:26
You just couldn't do it. I think I think this confession is there's there's parts of it that do not ring
01:06:32
true to me. There are parts of it that I think can are probably bogus. It's one of those weird cases, Captain.
01:06:40
My gut tells me one thing, the evidence shows me another, and without this This is not legal in the United States. This
01:06:48
The way they obtained this confession is not legal in the United States. How can
01:06:51
they use it in our court of law? I I don't understand. Yeah, and what what the government argued for years
01:07:00
about this case and what they rightfully decided was this crime took place in Washington. It
01:07:08
will be tried in Washington because that's where the crime took place. And so you should have to go
01:07:16
off of that set of rules. Mhm. So, if somebody goes over to the Middle East and they're in a country where it's
01:07:24
okay to rip toes off or cut hands off to get somebody to confess and they get somebody to confess to a
01:07:32
murder that took place in New York City and they transfer the person from the Middle East over to New York City.
01:07:40
Are we going to go with that confession? Right. Are we going to allow that in? And I think um
01:07:46
in this case, these guys should be whether you think they're guilty or innocent or whether they're guilty or
01:07:51
innocent, these guys should be set free for the fact that you made up the rules as you went along. And that's not
01:07:58
something that we should be doing as a system, a justice system. It's supposed to be uh truth and justice and you
01:08:05
didn't try to find either. The other thing that's really disturbing about this case is that there was a jury
01:08:10
member that was highly against this confession and it took notes of over 250, maybe 300 pages of notes.
01:08:19
This jury member was uh before the verdict was taking place, they were excused from the trial.
01:08:26
And I feel like this is um this was a tactic? Yeah, but I think from the beginning, I
01:08:34
mean, it was like we're going to get this Mr. Big Op operation in. We are going to get them to confess, then we're
01:08:40
going to get them down to you, and then we're going to make sure that this goes through and um cuz they they allowed in
01:08:46
so much stuff uh that I think they just shouldn't have and I don't think they got a fair trial
01:08:52
and it's sad that these guys are in jail. Again, whether they did it or not, that's not the point. It's a justice
01:08:59
system. All right, Captain, what are your other thoughts? All right, so I think um
01:09:04
my gut feeling is that they are innocent. That they they they didn't do this. I don't think it was enough of a
01:09:13
motivation. You have a pretty wealthy family that seems to be helping you out doing
01:09:18
things. You're in a nice college. What's this Yeah, I know it's a few hundred thousand dollars and you think
01:09:24
that's like a really big deal. But how much is that going to change your life? Mhm.
01:09:30
I don't know if it's enough of a motivation to kill your whole family for a few hundred thousand dollars.
01:09:37
Now, one of the points of evidence to me other than the fact that we have so many
01:09:42
eyewitnesses that claim that they saw them, right? Mhm. The one of the major points for me that
01:09:48
I I can't really get over and so I can't say that they're guilty is the sister. Now, I think a lot of people see that oh
01:09:56
well, we came home and we noticed the mom's dead and we noticed my dad's dead and I could hear my sister. And I think
01:10:02
a lot of people go, well, he needed her to die. That's why he didn't help her. Right? So, that would point to him being
01:10:11
guilty. But you call the police. You know she's not dead. There's a chance that the police
01:10:18
are going to get there in time and by the way, when the police can't find the house, what are you doing? Hey, we're
01:10:25
over here. Mhm. If you need her to die so you can get this money, right? And then you don't have her to
01:10:34
you know, you're not going to be responsible for her, then you don't need the cops to get there right away and you
01:10:40
can let it the time elapse even more. Mhm. You know what I mean? So, yeah, you show
01:10:45
up after the movies and after you get done at this club, mom's dead, dad's dead, sister's not
01:10:51
dead yet. Now, you got an option. You can finish her off or you can just wait an hour or so.
01:10:58
And then call police. Or when police are coming there, you don't flag them down.
01:11:04
So, that's the one uh piece of evidence that that I can't say that they're guilty because of that
01:11:10
piece of evidence. All right, so these two pieces of evidence to me that I can't
01:11:16
say that they're 100% innocent are this. During Sebastian's confession, he says these murders took place during when
01:11:24
they were supposed to be in the movie theater. And then the forensic evidence matched that. So, out of all the things
01:11:31
that he might have got wrong or might have not remembered, he got the time of death of when they
01:11:38
had to be at the house. Right. He got the time frame right. A small window of time, he got that
01:11:45
exactly right. Right. And what is super odd here is that he has done this before.
01:11:52
In high school, he wrecked his car. And when he wrecked his car, he decided that he was going to try to create an
01:12:01
alibi. And he did so by saying he moved the pieces that of the wreckage, moved his car, moved them to a movie theater,
01:12:11
then got tickets or whatever. And so, to kind of claim like, well, I wasn't involved in the crash.
01:12:19
Now, this is a big lie. Yeah. This is fraud. This is a big deal. This is This is criminal stuff. And I know
01:12:27
that his father and so many other people have said, "But these were just little kids at the time." Yeah, but sometimes
01:12:33
little kids create murders and that makes them awful pieces of [ __ ] Right? So, this this is a bad thing. This is
01:12:40
lying. This is fraud. Whatever you look at insurance companies, who cares? It's The fact is it's a big deal and he's
01:12:48
tried to do this alibi before. I think that's very fishy. So, not only does he get the time correctly, he also tried to
01:12:56
use this as an alibi earlier in his life. And because of those two things, uh this
01:13:01
is going to become a red light case for me. I mean, it already has where I I have thought, "Oh, well, see, but this
01:13:08
makes them look innocent. But, oh, you see, this makes them look guilty." I've changed my opinion four or five
01:13:14
times in the past 2 weeks. Yeah, but we both agree that the way they got these confessions were
01:13:20
was wrong. Wrong. It's just wrong. And they shouldn't have been used at trial, and if they weren't used at
01:13:24
trial, I don't think they would have been able to get a conviction. All right, Captain, how about a little
01:13:28
recommended reading for this week? All right, me mateys. We're recommending Beautifully Cruel, So
01:13:34
Lovely, So Twisted by award-winning journalist M. William Phelps. This is heart-pounding story storytelling at its
01:13:40
best. Phelps gives us a chilling account of the last person anyone would assume to be a cold-hearted killer, a
01:13:47
beautiful, devoted mother and housewife in a small town. This housewife seemed to have it all, but beneath the happy
01:13:54
facade was a woman who used lies, manipulation, sex, and even murder to serve her own selfish needs. Check out
01:14:02
Beautifully Cruel, So Lovely, So Twisted by M. William Phelps. Yeah, you can check out all of our
01:14:08
recommended reading since the beginning, since we started doing the recommended reading. Just go to our website
01:14:13
truecrimegarage.com and click on the recommended page. And while you're at the website, go to
01:14:18
the blog page because I want to hear if you think that these guys are guilty, if
01:14:22
they're innocent. So, join in the conversation. All right, now we want everybody out there.
01:14:28
Mhm. Yeah. we want to thank everybody for join Now, look one more time. We'll try it
01:14:33
three four more times. We want to thank everybody for joining us in the garage. We give you a cheers,
01:14:38
whether it be a long distance or one nearby. Close. a little shiner holiday cheers, right?
01:14:45
Yeah. To warm the heart this cold This cold cold week that we've had. My feet are freezing right now.
01:14:51
All right. Until next time, friends. Be good. Be kind. And don't litter.