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[Music] 2023 welcome to Shaker Heights episode three the crush 16-year-old Lisa puit was stabbed
00:01:42
21 Times by an unknown as salent on September 14th 1990 in Shaker Heights Ohio a well-to-do suburb on Cleveland's
00:01:53
East Side her body was found about 100 ft from her boyfriend's back door where he lived with his parents and sister
00:02:03
this boyfriend Dan dford had been released from a mental institution earlier that
00:02:11
day after the murder Dan friends gathered to discuss the murder in likely suspects we'll never know exactly what
00:02:20
was discussed at these private meetings of grief stricken children but we know that after those
00:02:28
meetings Dan friends went to Shaker Heights police detectives and said they believed that Kevin young had killed
00:02:35
Lisa puit out of jealousy over her relationship with Dan the police searched Kevin's house
00:02:44
and found no murder weapon or bloody clothes nothing at all to link him to the crime scene and he had an
00:02:53
alibi as the investigation continues an interview with 18-year-old Stanley Kramer licates danford's father and a
00:03:02
possible conspiracy of Silence by now Shaker Heights police detectives have interviewed the men and women who had
00:03:11
the means motive and opportunity to commit the crime and they've heard from a handful of teenagers at Shaker Heights
00:03:20
High School who regard Kevin young with hatred and suspicion the case takes a turn that
00:03:27
Monday just 3 days after leas murder that's when the police detectives decide it was Kevin young who committed the
00:03:36
crime what follows is a statement by a lead detective in the case which explains how FBI profilers helped
00:03:45
convinced them it was probably Kevin who committed the [Music] crime on Monday September 17th 1990 I was
00:04:10
contacted by special agent dick Ren of the Federal Bureau of Investigation relative to the Leisa pruit homicide
00:04:17
agent Ren advised me that he was the case agent for the Amy mahalic case and offered to assist us in any way he could
00:04:24
he further informed me that due to the circumstances surrounding the pruit case that he would need to inquire as to any
00:04:30
similarities between the mahalic and puit homicides I invited agent Ren to come to our station and review our
00:04:36
reports and other information that we had accured agent Ren advised that he would visit our station at approximately
00:04:42
1: p.m. that afternoon I was unable to meet with agent Ren when he arrived at the station due to the fact that I was
00:04:48
at the kyoga County prosecutor's office with Detective Sergeant Timothy Reid preparing a search warrant for the
00:04:54
resident of Kenneth teex Workman agent Ren and agent John Dunn met with other members of of the investigative Bureau
00:05:00
and reviewed reports and evidence from the pr homicide Upon returning from the County prosecutor's office detective
00:05:07
Sergeant Timothy Reid detective Robert shiping and detective David kives executed the search warrant at 2626
00:05:14
North Morland apartment number two the residence of Kenneth Workman C supplementary report by Sergeant Reed
00:05:21
there was nothing of evidentiary value located during the search later that afternoon while searching through
00:05:27
several plastic trash bags that were removed from the residence of Kevin young during a search of his residence
00:05:32
on Sunday morning September 16th 1990 investigators located several documents that contained writings and paraphrases
00:05:39
that indicated that Kevin young had some sort of Behavioral problem the writings
00:05:43
referred to Kevin's disdain for Jews Arabs and blacks he further remarked about his own problems with developing
00:05:50
relationships with females other writings revealed his inner feelings when he observed couples male and female
00:05:56
acting out their affection for one another further examination of the documents indicated an interest in
00:06:02
Satanism and neo-nazism specifically skin heads there were several documents that referred to suicide after all the
00:06:09
documents were examined I contacted agent Ren and advised him as to what we had found I asked him if he knew anyone
00:06:16
locally who could review the writings and offer us an opinion on what they meant agent Ren referred me to
00:06:21
supervisory special agent James Wright at the FBI Academy's Behavioral Science section in quanico Virginia I attempted
00:06:28
to make Con with agent Wright but was unable to do so due to the late hour on Wednesday September 18th 1990 I made
00:06:36
contact with agent Wright he asked me to fax him all available documents relative
00:06:40
to Kevin young he further related that he would review the documents that same evening I gathered all of the documents
00:06:47
37 Pages worth and had them fax to agent WR the transmission was completed at 12:34 p.m. on Thursday September 19th
00:06:55
1990 at 10:30 a.m. agent Wright contacted me by teleph telone and advised me that he had reviewed the
00:07:01
writings of Kevin Young and the details of the police report of the murder of Lisa puit he stated that it was his
00:07:07
opinion from the information that he had examined that the murder was definitely
00:07:11
a quote neighborhood thing unquote and that the person that we were looking for knew Lisa puit agent Wright then gave me
00:07:19
a personality profile on what he had learned concerning Kevin young he related that Kevin's personality profile
00:07:25
definitely fit that of a person capable of committing the crime in question he further remarked that we should look at
00:07:31
other sexual assaults that have been reported in the past agent Wright went on to state that Kevin young has no ego
00:07:37
low self-esteem he probably realizes that people don't like him he then offered some suggestions for any further
00:07:43
interviews with Kevin agent Wright suggested that Kevin young be interviewed at night the later the
00:07:48
better he described Kevin as a night person he further suggested that the interview should take place in a
00:07:54
non-threatening environment not in an interrogation room the interviewer must be able able to bond with Kevin provide
00:08:01
a friend unquote the interviewer should be matur looking articulate and intelligent he must not resemble Kevin's
00:08:09
father or have an authoritative personality agent Wright then proferred the following interview structure one
00:08:16
don't start off the interview by being threatening but do create some anxiety in the subject show him something from
00:08:22
the scene put it off to the side within his peripheral vision things from the scene might quote tweak him two
00:08:29
give the subject a face saving scenario two Kevin good and bad quote he lost control he's not really responsible end
00:08:38
qu refer to his writings If I Ever Lose Control of myself withdraw into an alternative world and let animal
00:08:46
instincts take over this is from an essay written by Kevin young dated January 9th
00:08:53
1990 three explain that the problem needs to be resolved four be careful not to be judgmental five don't be
00:09:03
confrontational and six you can expect a lot of denial for a long long time after
00:09:09
speaking with agent Wright I advised him that I was not sure that I had an interviewer with expertise in dealing
00:09:15
with the type of Personality that he describes I further advised him that depending on laboratory results the
00:09:21
success or failure of this investigation hinged on the interview with Kevin young
00:09:25
agent Wright offered to assist in any way he could other than personally conducting the interview I then asked if
00:09:31
he would assist in preparing the interviewer I told him that I would be willing to come to quano with the
00:09:36
selected interviewer if he could make his staff available to us for whatever period of time that he thought was
00:09:41
necessary agent Wright reiterated that he would help in any way possible on Friday September 21st 1990 at 2 p.m.
00:09:49
agent Ren agent Dunn members of the investigative bureau chief hugick and I met in the conference room we decided at
00:09:57
that meeting that Kevin young was our primary suspect and that we should make arrangements as soon as possible to meet
00:10:02
with agent wri at quanico agent Dunn offered his assistance and advised that he would be willing to accompany us to
00:10:08
quanico for the interview preparation session after the meeting I contacted agent Wright and advised him of the
00:10:14
results of our meeting agent Wright stated that he would be available to meet with us on Tuesday September 25th
00:10:19
1990 at 11:00 a.m. and that he would be at our disposal for as long as it took to structure our interview Chief Walter
00:10:26
aerick after Consulting with members of the investig ative Bureau assigned detective Sergeant Thomas Gray as the
00:10:32
primary interviewer and detective Thomas gansky as the backup interviewer he further approved travel and expenses for
00:10:39
the trip to quanico for sergeant Thomas Gray detective Richard meany special agent John Dunn and myself on Tuesday
00:10:47
September 25th 1990 we departed from Cleveland Hopkins airport at 8:35 a.m. via Continental Airlines flight number
00:10:55
268b and arrived at Washington National Airport at approxim 9:45 a.m. we leased a vehicle from the airport and arrived
00:11:03
at the FBI Academy in quanico at 11:00 a.m. as scheduled we then met in the behavioral sciences unit with
00:11:09
supervisory special agent James Wright and three members of his staff special agent Dave Gomez special agent Greg
00:11:15
Cooper and special agent Janna Monroe the session began with us providing a detailed description of the crime scene
00:11:22
all events leading up to the murder and all events succeeding the murder they viewed all photographs illustrations and
00:11:29
documents concerning the case each named suspect was described with the reason or
00:11:34
reasons why they were still suspected or eliminated as a suspect their initial response was to point out the Deep anger
00:11:40
that was demonstrated throughout this crime they felt this anger was demonstrated both in the type of stab
00:11:45
wounds and in the force used to break Lisa's rib the anger also showed in the high-risk scenario that surrounded
00:11:51
Lisa's death they also felt that based on the crime scene that the knife was a weapon of choice not a weapon of
00:11:57
opportunity agent right and his staff then shared with us a profile of Kevin young they described Kevin young as a
00:12:03
quote John hinley type personality he described hle is a person who fantasized about women from afar he further
00:12:10
explained that hinley often wrote letters describing romantic interludes with women that he had never been
00:12:15
acquainted with they felt that the papers from Kevin indicated that he had at one time had some type of homosexual
00:12:21
experience which would explain his quote homophobia they described Kevin as very
00:12:26
immature and childish and emotionally behind his peers they estimated that he had the emotional development of an 11
00:12:33
or 12-year-old and added that he probably had difficulty dealing with his peers but that he could function
00:12:38
socially with both younger children and adults they also felt that because he was emotionally behind his peers Kevin
00:12:44
was threatened by Dan drier through Lisa puit they felt his papers also indicated
00:12:49
he had no self-respect their profile on Kevin also LED them to believe that he had Justified his actions to himself
00:12:55
before he did it one of their biggest concerns was that now that he had killed it would be easier for him to kill again
00:13:02
they felt he had many traits of a serial killer we then focused on developing an
00:13:06
approach for the interviewer they suggested that the interview be conducted away from any police settings
00:13:11
preferably in a motel Suite they also suggested that the interview be conducted by one person and not recorded
00:13:17
in any way it would be easier for Kevin to trust one person and to trust that person if there was no recording of the
00:13:23
interview they explained how to get Kevin to record the quote truth unquote after the interview they also reminded
00:13:30
us of the importance of having a supply of pop and cigarettes and of being prepared to handle meals and sleeping
00:13:36
arrangements as the interview went on they told us up front that they felt Kevin would want to tell us what
00:13:41
happened and that it would probably take him a long time they also suggested that
00:13:45
the interview be done at night the later the better due to Kevin's nocturnal Tendencies the approach location and
00:13:51
wording would all have to be a soft approach they stressed the importance of having enough patience to let him sit
00:13:57
and talk to build his e and to discuss his interests they also focused on the issue that Kevin must feel that the
00:14:03
interviewer cares about him for the interview to be a success our approach was to be that the interviewer has the
00:14:09
ability to help Kevin to present the truth to the prosecutor and to be an outsider to the system that will help
00:14:15
him agent Wright suggested we could reinforce this with thoughts along the line ofe my boss thinks you're a killer
00:14:21
end quote we also wanted to express our concern for the urgency of the matter that resulted in our late afternoon trip
00:14:28
to Columbia the initial setup of the interview was all soft tones and all aimed at building
00:14:33
trust and confidence they felt that given Kevin's personality that he would have a difficult time talking to anyone
00:14:39
about what happened however they suggested that his intellectual approach to everything could be used to our
00:14:45
advantage they thought his personality would let him explain what had happened as a theoretical quote third person we
00:14:52
decided to address the interview first in the third person they felt that if he was involved Kevin's personality would
00:14:57
encourage him to discuss disc what happened in the third person it was felt that if Kevin had an opportunity to
00:15:02
justify and rationalize what was done then it would be easier for him to confess it would be critical at this
00:15:09
point to be non-judgmental about anything that Kevin said the next part of the interview would be indirect
00:15:15
questioning these would address our concerns in non-threatening ways these questions would be in the form of
00:15:21
putting him in the shoes of the person who did this to Lisa and asking him things like what would this person do
00:15:27
with the knife with bloody cloes or with bloody hands the next topic was a polygraph they discussed the importance
00:15:34
of good polygraph questions for someone like Kevin the questions would have to key into stress areas of the actual
00:15:40
interview they felt that someone like Kevin might pass a polygraph with standard questions suggested questions
00:15:46
were did you get blood on yourself and did you get in a fight the last part of the interview if needed would be the
00:15:52
confrontational part during this section we would present to Kevin an overwhelming amount of why we thought he
00:15:58
was involved Kevin would then be asked to help the interviewer explain the evidence presented we also discussed the
00:16:05
importance of doing the same type interview on the parents during the time that we were talking to Kevin agent
00:16:10
Wright and his staff then discussed interviewing techniques to help build and reduce stress in the interview this
00:16:16
included questions voice control and body positioning we also discussed items to have at hand the first were some
00:16:22
non-threatening pictures of the area where Lisa was killed they suggested no more than three or four and we discussed
00:16:28
how to use them in the interview as an aid for Kevin to visualize the scene the second item was a computer print out of
00:16:34
our information on Kevin in a binder with his name on it and with some tabs marking key thoughts this would be
00:16:40
useful during the confrontational portion and would add stress during the rest of the interview we then reviewed
00:16:45
what we had covered they stressed again that we had to show Kevin that we really
00:16:50
cared that our job was to find the truth and that we were neutral and were there
00:16:55
to present the truth to the justice system [Music] while detectives have decided to focus
00:17:08
on Kevin young as their prime suspect they have actually not yet finished with their witness
00:17:15
interviews on Tuesday they finally sit down with 16-year-old Dan messenger who provides important context for the final
00:17:24
hours of Lisa pu's life Dan messenger also gives us our first insight into one of those secret meetings of Dan's
00:17:34
friends which happened the morning after the murder when a handful of teenagers made the decision that it had to be
00:17:42
Kevin young the weird kid in school who committed the crime I met Lisa in the third grade at
00:17:51
lllo elementary school and since then I've been close friends pretty much ever since I met Daniel dford uh when he got
00:17:59
on the bus in seventh grade but I became close friends with him in German class in 9th grade I met Chris Jones in 10th
00:18:07
grade in science class and we we became very close I met Kevin young basically in 10th Grade and I'll just say that I
00:18:15
met Tex in the 10th grade a little while after we moved here on Thursday September 13th 1990 I knew that Dan was
00:18:24
coming home and I had talked to both Dan and Lisa about it and I knew if he wasn't coming home on the 13th he would
00:18:30
be coming home soon I was uh sitting after school in my German classroom when I heard someone say Dan and I looked up
00:18:38
and Dan and Lisa were together and Dan was waving at me I immediately went out of the room and I talked with both of
00:18:44
them and I was very excited Lisa said that she should uh go and try to get her driver's license and so she and Dan
00:18:53
would go and Dan would see her off and Dan said he would come back and see me in a few minutes in the German room I
00:18:59
went back to the German room and I left momentarily I went looking for Dan but I
00:19:04
didn't find him until I went outside and I saw Dan dford and Chris Jones on their
00:19:09
bikes Dan asked me why I wasn't in the German room because he had walked past it and I wasn't there I said because I
00:19:15
left right away we talked about trying to get together and we decided that I'd ride with Chris on his bike and Dan
00:19:22
would ride his bike over to my house we went over to my house and I got my bike and we rode our bike akes over to
00:19:28
Chris's apartment it was at Chris's apartment where we went inside and we talked a lot I was very excited we ate
00:19:36
some of Chris's snicker bars and Dan had some letters in his backpack that he had
00:19:41
received from Lisa that he had not yet read and was going to read them later Chris was getting dressed to go fencing
00:19:49
So at around 5:30 p.m. he left and went to go fencing Dan and I also left and decided that we would go to lesie R's
00:19:57
house when we got over there lesie gave Dan a big hug actually now that I think about it we saw Caris Smith walking down
00:20:04
the street Dan and her hugged first then we walked over to Lesley's house with our bikes and that's where lesie gave
00:20:11
Dan a hug at Lesley's house I began walking around a lot just being nervous for some reason and Dan sat and talked
00:20:19
to lesie Cara We also went outside and Dan and I and lesli's little brother threw around of football we left
00:20:26
Lesley's I went home and and Dan went home this was around 6:00 p.m. I believe I called my voice tell mailbox to see if
00:20:35
I had any messages and Lisa had called it was 5:23 p.m. that she had called she was very excited she said she had great
00:20:44
day and that she wanted me to call her back I was going to save the message but for some reason I deleted it then I
00:20:51
called Lisa back and she had told me how great of a day it was because Dan had gotten home and she had gotten her
00:20:58
driver's license she said she would be Dan Chris's and My Chauffeur but that we couldn't fool around too much because
00:21:06
she knew we would she said that she had to go to her flute lesson soon but she would call me later that night and then
00:21:12
we said goodbye the thing before that I forgot was that when Dan and I left from
00:21:18
lesie roach's house Dan said that he would give me a call later that night as well that's all I know definitely from
00:21:26
that night as far as I can remember [Music] the next day I was called around 5:00
00:21:30
a.m. I did not wake up but my parents received a call the call was from Linda mayor who is my German teacher and she
00:21:37
told me what had happened to Lisa I was woken between 5:00 a.m. and 5:30 a.m. and my parents told me what had happened
00:21:45
as far as they knew which was that Lisa had been murdered and that it happened at Lee in South Woodland between 6:00
00:21:52
a.m. and 6:30 a.m. I called Christopher Jones and I told him what had happened I
00:21:57
was afraid he wouldn't find out until later and because he was also a very good friend of Lisa's I felt that it was
00:22:03
important that he find out in an early time Chris told me that he didn't believe me and that I should stop joking
00:22:09
around he said that he would talk to me later that day in school and hung up the
00:22:14
phone about 20 minutes later Chris called me back and asked me is it really true Katherine Schultz had called him
00:22:22
also and told him what had happened when Chris called me back we decided that we
00:22:26
would go over to Katherine's house where Regina Raider Christian schang and Kim Cole were also there my father drove
00:22:34
us over and on the way over we listened to the news report on 1100 a.m. radio and this was at 7: a.m. it said that a
00:22:42
Shaker Heights girl had been murdered and that she was raped and bludgeon to death at Catherine's we all talked and
00:22:49
cried and when we got over there Kim Cole was talking to Kim wrath bone when she got off the phone she told us that
00:22:55
Kim wrath bone had told her that she had heard screams Brian and Adam keing Jeff
00:23:01
Michael Charlie Martin also went over to Catherine's that morning we all shared the information that we all knew at the
00:23:07
time around 8:30 a.m. I went to school with Jeff Michael Charlie Martin and Kristen at school a large group of
00:23:15
friends such as Judy Miller Jennifer margal Rachel lenthal Tanya Mani were all of Lisa's and Dan's close friends
00:23:24
basically gathered in the band room to share everything we knew about what had happened
00:23:28
Jeff steer kept trying to call Dan triford but never got through to him we were told he was at the police station
00:23:35
being questioned at second period around 9:00 a.m. I went to my math class with christien schlang who is also in the
00:23:41
class there revend Honan talked us all and tried to comfort us the next period we went to German class where a lot of
00:23:50
us who weren't even in German went this was basically Lisa's close friends again
00:23:55
a lot of people I've mentioned before here Linda mayor Reverend Honan another clergyman and they all talked to us and
00:24:04
tried to help us after this most of us went back to the bandroom again and we just talked about the great things that
00:24:10
Lisa had done in her life Midway through the period we all went back to Katherine's house when we got to
00:24:16
Katherine's Ted fulman Judy Miller Regina Raider Kristen schlang and myself went to pick up flowers for Lisa's
00:24:24
family we got back and a few people brought these flowers to Lisa's house at around 2 p.m. Ted fulman took me home
00:24:33
because he was also taking Jeff's steer home and I had planned to go with him and a few others to Temple that evening
00:24:40
once I got home I told my parents that I was going over to the murder scene and I
00:24:44
just wanted to see everything for myself I walked over and I saw the tape I asked a few policemen if anything had
00:24:52
been discovered that they could tell me about no one had anything to say at this
00:24:57
this time haly Warren and Jennifer Shook saw me and stopped their car and parked
00:25:02
their car and then they came over they said they had talked to my parents and my parents told them where I was at this
00:25:08
particular time I saw a man who had a channel 5 camera I walked over because I wanted to hear what they had to say I
00:25:16
asked the reporter if I could just hear his comments and that was it he said it was okay he also told me about the 300
00:25:23
p.m. press conference at City Hall I heard what he had to say and once he was done he asked me questions which I
00:25:30
didn't really answer he was more interested in about Dan and than Lisa at 300 p.m. we were at City Hall we sat
00:25:39
down in the second row but because we were behind the cameras I moved to the other side so I could see the chief
00:25:45
clearly I stayed for the entire time and when it was over I was ready to leave a
00:25:51
few people from the Press came over to talk to me but I had no comment except to say how great Dan and Lisa were both
00:25:57
as people and as a couple I also talked to the Chief and said that if he wanted to talk to me I'd be willing to talk I
00:26:04
also spoke to the woman in charge of the dealing with the media from the police I
00:26:08
think the public relations director she was at this time I did not feel that I was in the right state to talk about
00:26:14
anything that had happened so I got in Jennifer Shooks car with my with hiy and Jennifer and we were driving planning on
00:26:22
going to my house and I noticed that the tape had been taken off Lee and South Woodland I saw Deb dford pull out of
00:26:30
Dan's driveway and I asked if Dan was home she said yeah go on in we pulled into the driveway next to Dan's and I
00:26:38
ran up to see Dan at this time Judy Miller Rachel lenthal Christopher Jones and I were all at Dan's house I don't
00:26:47
remember if anyone else was there Dan and I talked and he told me that he would tell me what happened later when
00:26:54
other people were not around a few minutes later at around 4:30 p.m. most of Dan's other friends left I called my
00:27:01
parents and told them that when Ted fulman called to tell him that I wasn't going to Services I talked to Dan and he
00:27:07
told me what had happened that night and how he was involved Stanley Kramer was also there and Dan talked to Christopher
00:27:15
Jones alone a few times later on that evening a lot of Dan's other friends came over but before then Christopher
00:27:22
Jones Stanley Kramer Dan and I sat out on his back porch and talked about everything that had happened at this
00:27:29
time Christopher was called to speak to Sergeant gray Chris came back and Sergeant gray also talked to us he said
00:27:36
if we ever needed to talk to him or needed to say anything to anyone we could call him he also reiterated that
00:27:42
we should not speak to the media if asked at one point that night Jeff Michael Charlie Martin and myself were
00:27:49
told by Dan that he would show us where Lisa's body was found we went with Dan at around 8:00 p.m. and we went to the
00:27:57
sidewalk and Brett Caro was there and he was just walking and we all went with Dan and he showed us where he saw the
00:28:04
bicycle from the night before a police car came over and took down all of our names and asked us not to come by there
00:28:10
again because we could either get contaminated with evidence or we could mess up what was there that's basically
00:28:16
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00:30:29
how much have you seen Dan dford and Lisa puit this summer I got home from Germany on July 22nd 1990 and at this
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particular time Daniel was at the Unitarian convention he got home the following weekend and from that time on
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we spent a lot of our time together that is until he went to the hospital I was with him the night before he went to the
00:30:51
hospital at 12:00 a.m. at this time Dan and I had planned for me to come back over at about 1 that night we had no
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idea what was going to happen the next day with Dan going to the hospital I came back at 1:00 a.m. and I expect to
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see Dan sitting outside waiting for me when I came up though the lights inside Dan's house were on which was a surprise
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I went to the back and saw Dan's father yelling at Dan because he would not go to sleep I guess 15 minutes later his
00:31:20
father finally stopped yelling at Dan Dan came out and said everything was okay we went downstairs to his howling
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Commando room and we talked until around 3:00 a.m. about a lot of things such as
00:31:31
Lisa and how much he loved her and how upset he was with his dad everything you would expect from two strange
00:31:39
teenagers I went home around 3:00 a.m. and the following day Dan was put into the hospital Dan and I corresponded
00:31:46
through letters and phone calls at the hospital I got Dan's pay phone number from Deb dford I called it a lot but it
00:31:54
wasn't until the following Monday that a kid answered and for some reason reason
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thought I was Dan's father from this time onward without me saying it they thought I was his father I would call
00:32:04
just about every day one time Dan came home and I saw him actually more than one time another time I found out from
00:32:12
Dan that he would be going to the sever bowling lanes Lisa and I went to see him
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and we asked for the Lane right next to it because it was supposed to be our lucky Lane here Lisa and Dan talked but
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we weren't supposed to know each other so I had a lot of correspondence with Dan for Lisa I spent almost every day
00:32:32
with her we would talk a lot about Dan because we were mutual friends and she would come over or I would go over there
00:32:38
almost every day we sent him packages she jumped in our pool with her clothes on and we basically had a great time I
00:32:46
think I've said just about everything about the summer and Dan and Lisa could you describe what you know about the
00:32:52
late night meeting between Dan and Lisa and how you found out about the meeting yeah this was a normal thing for Dan and
00:32:58
Lisa to meet each other late at night when I was over at Chris's apartment on September 13th I realized that Dan and
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Lisa would probably be meeting each other the next day after the murder I was talking to either Dan or Chris and
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they told me one of them uh that Dan had told Chris that he was welcome to come also if I remember correctly Tex also
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told Lisa would be coming over that night Chris did not go over that night and that's as far as I believe I know
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about that Chris also said that he was very sad that I that he didn't go over that night because he hoped that he
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could have done something to the attack her at least it would not have been murdered have you ever gone over to the
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dford house late at night and if so how did you get into the house or get Dan's attention to let him know you were there
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every time that I had gone over there Dan and I had planned on me coming uh the first time coming over there was
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this past summer in 1990 Dam would always be waiting on the porch and when I came over we would either talk on the
00:34:01
porch or go inside and talk usually in the Commando room one other thing Dan mentioned to me about this night was
00:34:08
that he had not even remembered at the time that he was talking to his father that Lisa was coming over the only time
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where Dan was not waiting for me was the time that I talked about when it was Dan's last evening before he went to the
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hospital I know that in the past Dan and Kim Rathbone and some of his friends had
00:34:27
met in either Dan's backyard or Kim's backyard but I don't know how they signaled each other are you aware of the
00:34:33
incident where Kevin young stormed out of Arabica and if so could you describe what you know about the incident and
00:34:40
what you know about Kevin young sure at around 10:30 p.m. on September 13th 1990
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Kevin young stormed out of araba that's basically what I've heard this is not unusual for Kevin Young Who
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I consider a bit crazy and I say this because in the past he has had a lot of problems with women and in relationships
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in fact I remember in my 1990 gear book Kevin saide I hope you have better luck with women than I do unquote Kevin and I
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saw a few days after I had gotten home from Germany in araba he said that if I saw Dan to tell him how he hated him and
00:35:17
how he was mad at him he basically just told me how much of an idiot Dan was I heard either from Kevin young or someone
00:35:23
else that he had liked Lisa and that he hated both both Dan and Lisa and that he
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had wished that he could kill both of them of course when you hear something like that being said usually do not take
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it seriously because most people have said something like that especially Kevin young who has said that about many
00:35:41
people it would not be out of place to be totally surprised if Kevin did kill someone did it make you uneasy when
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Kevin young said he wanted to kill Dan and Lisa I can say that many things Kevin has said has made me feel uneasy
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but now that I think about it I remember this pretty vividly because he was talking about two of my best friends and
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when Dan came home from his Unitarian convention why Kevin had said that right now I don't remember what Dan's response
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was could you describe how Chris Young Kenny Workman Danny dford Stan Kramer Kevin young and yourself fit together as
00:36:19
friends Chris Dan and I are close friends Stan is not a close friend of Dan he's more someone we'd see up at a
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Bea every once in a while Tex is Deb's boyfriend and because he was always at the dryer's residence Dan got to know
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him better and talk to him more I had been out with Deb Dan and tex bowling and a few other times but as friends Tex
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wasn't someone Dan usually hung out with unless his sister was around Kevin most
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of all was not hardly even a friend of Dan or any of the rest of us he was more of a person that we saw at araba who we
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didn't particularly like I had nothing against him I just thought he was a bit crazy did Dan dper invite you over to
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his house on the evening of Thursday September 13th 1990 he did not invite me over on Thursday September 13th
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1990 I think he may have said I could come over for a few minutes before he had dinner but I'm not sure about that
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have you ever heard or have you ever attended a party at Dan dford where Robos was consumed by everybody there uh
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actually yes I did not have any robotussin but one night Rebecca Boatright and Andy Conrad were at Dan's
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house I called Dan up that night and he said I could stop by he told me he had some uh 4 ounces I believe and how Becca
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and Andy had some at Becca's house when I got over there Becca and Andy both said how it wasn't really doing anything
00:37:52
for them Dan said it usually takes a half hour before you begin to trip Dan ran with them in the backyard in
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circles and tried to get tried to get them to trip he went to a bench or something at the back of the yard and
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would talk with them and try to trip with them or something he tried to do it with me even though I didn't have any
00:38:12
Robitussin I kept laughing and he said it obviously wasn't working if I was laughing their behavior seemed normal I
00:38:19
guess eventually they did trip but I was never able to tell they seemed normal to
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me to Dan D for ever tell you any strange effects he got from consuming robotussin
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yes uh he told me many times he wanted me to someday try it with him once but I told him I would never do it he said
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that there were stages to the robotussin there was one main thing that he said it
00:38:44
did for you it just made you feel like everything was out there I'm not sure he used to say one specific thing but for
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some reason I just can't remember it was not a big change in what you could think
00:38:57
he would say it was the added things you saw all I know is that he has had one bad trip I don't know how many times
00:39:06
he's done it but I know the first time he did it it was at the Susi convention he attended tell me what you know about
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the relationship between Dan dord and Kim wrath bone well they've always been friends and just friends in fact
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sometimes they didn't talk for a long time but they were still friends I'd ask him how he wouldn't talk to her and if
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she just lived right behind him but he said he just didn't see her she was a friend of both Dan and his family I
00:39:38
remember during the summer Dan's parents and sister went to Toronto while Dan stayed with a friend named Jamie
00:39:45
Greenfield and Kim got the mail for them they've just been friends at times during Middle School seventh and eighth
00:39:52
grade they would meet late at night especially when Judy Miller was Kim's house and when Brian keading was at
00:39:59
Dan's house because at the time Dan was going out with Judy and Kim was going out with Brian they have been good
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friends that is Kim and Dan how did you learn that Kim wrath bone had heard screams on the night that Lisa PR was
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murdered well if I remember correctly uh Kim Cole was talking to Kim Rathbone when I got over to Katherine's house on
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the morning of the 14th of September when she got off the phone she told us how Kim thought she could have done
00:40:28
something because she thought she had heard screams that night Kim Cole said that sounded like Kim Rathbone felt that
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it was partly her fault I also talked to Brian keading who is still Kim wrath Bone's boyfriend and he told me how Kim
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Rathbone had called him around 7 a.m. on the 14th and told him what happened to Lisa and called back right after they
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had hung up and said that she thought she had also heard screaming that night of the 13th do you recall who mentioned
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to you that text workman's Footprints may have been found near the murder scene I believe that was Dan dford to
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your knowledge how did danford's Father feel about Dan's relationship with Lisa puit as far as I know he had no problem
00:41:14
with it I don't think Dan's father ever met Lisa I remember talking to Lisa about Dan's father and the way he
00:41:21
treated Dan and Lisa said that she had never met Dan's father when he's been like that and she might have said that
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she never met Dan's father at all but I do know they met when Lisa went out with
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Dan one weekend when Dan was home from the hospital how did you feel about Dan dord dating Lisa puit I remember the day
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that I found out I believe it was April 4th 1990 and that was the day after they
00:41:48
decided to go together uh Lisa came in a German class and told me and I was so excited I remember I was was so happy
00:41:56
because Dan and Lisa are two of my closest friends and I felt so highly of both of them they broke up right before
00:42:04
I came home from Germany in fact I think it was the day I came home from Germany
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and I saw Lisa right when I got off the plane because Regina was going to stay with them I asked how Dan was and she
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said that they didn't want to talk about it right now for the next two or so weeks I spend all my time with Dan and
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Lisa separately I kept telling them how I hope they got back together because the reason they broke up was a reason
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that didn't really matter Dan was just confused and really just wanted some time alone for a little while and Dan
00:42:37
was not home though when I had seen Lisa and from the first time I saw him in Shaker after I got back he told me how
00:42:45
much he loved Lisa and how he wanted to get back together with her Lisa wanted to get back together with him but she
00:42:51
kept saying how everyone else thought she should be a certain way since they broke up Dan and I were driven over to
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Lisa's One Night by some friends and Dan and Lisa talked and it was obvious that
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that they wanted to get back together in fact if I remember correctly either that
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night or the following night Dan went over there and fact I remember he went over there a few times late at night
00:43:16
without her parents knowing during the summer on August 3rd 1990 they were a couple again so they
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didn't spend that much time away from each other really uh they wanted to be together and from all my time with them
00:43:32
I think they really did love each other next up in the hot seat is 17-year-old Rebecca Boatright and the
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subject of the conversation is Kevin young so I know Dan dford because two summers ago I went to Germany with his
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sister Debbie dford debb deie and I became close friends and through her I met her brother and after that Dan drer
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and I became pretty good friends Thursday September 13th 1990 Dan called me at about 8:20 p.m. he had asked me if
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I wanted to come over later and told me a bunch of people were coming over later
00:44:14
and I said like who and he said Chris Jones Lisa puit and maybe Kevin young and maybe Dan Messinger I told him I
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didn't think I could get out I was tired and I wanted to get to bed and that was
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the end of our conversation Friday September 14th 1990 during first period at the high school Dr Rumba said that
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Lisa puit had been involved in a homicide last night and since nobody really knew how it happened the basic
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rumor was that she had been hit on the head with a blunt object and her body had been found on the sidewalk corner of
00:44:46
South Woodland and Lee later at around 1:30 p.m. I went up to araba at Shaker Square and since I was waiting for
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Debbie dryr to come in and since Kevin young was the only one I knew up there I sat down and talked to him basically he
00:45:00
said has your day been as bad as everybody else is and I said well it was pretty depressing I said it doesn't seem
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like the type of thing that would happen in Shaker and I was really worried for Dan dford since no doubt he's probably a
00:45:13
suspect somehow or other we got onto the topic of rape I said well if she was raped isn't there a possibility that
00:45:20
they will find some semen sample on her body and Kevin said I don't think she was raped I said well just assuming from
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that they will be able to prove who did it and he said well tests like that are 100% accurate so if Dan drfort did it
00:45:34
then chances are they probably know already but I really don't think she was raped then I told him that I had heard
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she had been pulled from her bike around the corner on South Woodland before Lee
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and that she had been hit on the head with a blunt object he said no I think she was stabbed I said well that's not
00:45:51
what I heard and he said I'm pretty sure she was stabbed then I said it it makes
00:45:56
sense that her bike would have been found in the area like before you reach Lee since from what I heard her body had
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been found on the sidewalk on the corner of South Woodland and Lee Kevin said he
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thought they found it around there in the field nearby around that area I said not that it really matters since nobody
00:46:12
really knows except the police he said yes you're probably right then I went to get a pink lemonade and when I came back
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I said some extremely psychotic person had to have done this and he said what makes you think that and I said well
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it's not the type of thing a perfectly sane person does then he sort of like sat up and said really loudly and really
00:46:33
quickly well I would only kill in self-defense then he like switched to the person golf issue he said what does
00:46:40
Fabo think about what's going on and I said he thinks that they should reinstitute the draft and to add women
00:46:46
to it which I think is pretty unfair this was said pretty jokingly he said why and I said since women are obviously
00:46:53
the superior sex I don't think we should be for forced to go off to war and be killed he said but you think people who
00:46:59
are my age and are about to be headed off to college should be forced to go there and be killed and I said well
00:47:05
that's what Fabo thinks and Kevin started rolling his eyes and kept saying my God I should storm his house and kill
00:47:11
him then I said somewhat jokingly as long as I'm not shipped off and he said oh because you don't think women should
00:47:18
be killed and I said exactly he said I don't know about that I can think of a few women I would like to see dead I
00:47:25
said like who he said the only thing I want to know is if the US is in the Persian Gulf because of NATO Pride or
00:47:31
oil and he kept on babbling about this I got bored so I told him I had to go pick
00:47:35
up my mother which I did when you talked to Kevin young at Arabica on Friday afternoon did he tell you how he learned
00:47:44
of the death of Lisa puit no did Kevin mention anything about being invited over to danford's house the night before
00:47:53
no did Kevin Young ever indicate directly to you any kind of romantic feelings towards Lisa
00:48:00
puit yeah but it was quite a while ago it was like in the context like Dan was a God because he could get any woman he
00:48:07
wanted and I said why do you care and he said because she has a great ass I said
00:48:13
why do you like her or something and he said I'm not going to tell you because you'll go tell Dan I said I don't care
00:48:18
one way or another how people feel sexually towards Lisa and he said if you were a guy you would have you ever known
00:48:25
Kevin young or have you ever seen Kevin young carrying any type of weapon no on Friday afternoon at araba when you spoke
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to Kevin young did he mention any conversation he had with Kenny Workman the night before no is there anything
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else that you wish to add to this statement [Music] No finally the police speak to
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16-year-old Christopher Jones a close friend of Dan dordz last Thursday September 13th 1990
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at the end of 10th period I was met outside my 10th period classroom by Dan dord and Lisa puit and several friends I
00:49:13
spoke to Dan and went to my locker got my bike out and as I was riding out I ran into Dan dford again outside the
00:49:20
school we rode our bikes around the school and met up with Dan Messinger we rode over to messinger's house and he
00:49:27
picked up his bike and we rode over to my apartment we stayed there until about 4:10 p.m. then they both rode off on
00:49:33
their bikes and I ran back to school for fencing I got back from fencing at about
00:49:37
6:40 p.m. I had a note saying that Lisa puit called at 5:30 p.m. I called her back but her phone was busy I figured
00:49:46
she wanted to get a hold of Dan dford and had already gotten a hold of him and so I didn't call her back again then I
00:49:52
got a call from Dan dord at about 8:00 p.m. we talked for a while and he said that he was going to have some people
00:49:58
over later and that I should give him a call if I wanted to come I called him back at about 10 p.m. he said that Tex
00:50:05
was over at his house and that Lisa might show up later and that I could stop by if I wanted to and give him a
00:50:11
call later I called him back at about A4 to 11:00 p.m. or so and said that I wasn't going to come over then I
00:50:18
finished the paper I was working on and went to bed I went to bed between 11:00 p.m. and 12: midnight I I got a call at
00:50:26
6:30 a.m. on September 14th 1990 from Dan Messinger saying that Lisa puit had been murdered I didn't really believe
00:50:33
him and I tried going back to sleep and I got a call about 5 minutes later from Katherine Schultz saying the same thing
00:50:40
I asked her if I could go over to her house because some other people were over there at the time and I called back
00:50:46
Dan Messinger and asked him if he wanted to go over to Catherine Schultz's house
00:50:50
he said he could pick me up and he picked me up about 5 minutes later and we drove over there we heard on the news
00:50:56
that Lisa died we got her to Catherine's house and Katherine was there Shelby hien and c and Kirsten from Germany and
00:51:04
Regina who is Lisa's foreign exchange student and Kim Cole we stayed there about a half an hour and all the girls
00:51:10
left except for Kiren and then Brian and Adam Keaton came over and Jeff Michael and Charlie Martin also came over we
00:51:18
talked for about a half an hour then I got a ride back to my apartment from the Kings I stayed there until halfway
00:51:23
through second period then I went to school I met up with some people there and we talked to several teachers about
00:51:28
the death then we walked around until third period I went to third period German class about half the class were
00:51:35
close friends of Lisa half were regular students in that class we were talked to
00:51:40
by several counselors and ministers about Lisa's death after that class ended I went outside for a while about a
00:51:46
half a period and sat under a tree I came back into school into the band room where about 15 close friends of Lisa
00:51:52
were gathered talking about her we split up after about a half an hour and then went to talk to certain teachers and we
00:51:59
got back together and got rides to Catherine Schultz's house there we talked to about 20 people at Catherine's
00:52:05
house we ate lunch and talked about things there about 300 p.m. myself Jennifer margules and Judy Miller and
00:52:14
Rachel lenthal went over to danford's house Dan wasn't home the police were searching all around the house and Brett
00:52:22
Coro was there about 15 minutes later Mrs dord came in and asked if it was all right to come into the house then she
00:52:30
went back and came back to the house with the car with Mr drier Dan dordt and Debbie dord we went
00:52:37
inside we went into Dan's TV room basically sat there for a while and then a little bit later Dan minger and Haley
00:52:44
Warren showed up after going to a press conference at the city hall we talked about what they had heard
00:52:50
there and eventually we watched the news Dan was pretty angry about being a suspect or the way they portrayed that
00:52:58
pretty much from there many people came and left Dan's house that night eventually me and Dan Messinger got a
00:53:04
ride from Scott Fiero to the pu's house we talked to Mr puit we went up into their house and spent a little time in
00:53:11
Lisa's [Music] room on the next episode we'll come back to Chris Jones's interview with police
00:53:24
but until then think on what we've just learned in the hours after Lisa Pit's murder Dan dford is the main suspect a
00:53:35
group of Dan's friends meet up to discuss the case the kids don't want it to be their friend nobody wants it to be
00:53:45
Dan dford after that meeting the teens tell police it was Kevin Young from that moment on the only suspect in the eyes
00:53:55
of of the police is the weird kid in school Kevin young though not one piece of evidence links him to the
00:54:03
crime while all this is going on two of Dan's friends talk their way into Lisa's
00:54:10
home to be alone in her room in what world does that request make sense what was the purpose of that visit
00:54:20
was something taken from that room all we know for sure is that police never followed up on this detail they
00:54:29
never again asked Chris what he was doing in Lisa Pit's [Music] [Music] bedroom you can live out your Master Chef dreams
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when you find a professional on Angie to tackle your dream kitchen remodel connect with skilled
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professionals to get all your home projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that