00:00:00
foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True crab garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:00:45
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man with a closet full of
00:00:49
guns and a freezer full of meat but he's fresh out of toilet paper he is the captain no poo poo paper for you my
00:00:57
friend it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend
00:01:02
[Music] this week we are very very excited to be featuring one of my favorite beers we
00:01:15
have featured this before but there is great cause to bring it back ladies and gentlemen trumpets please five out of
00:01:22
five bottle caps for dortmunder gold from my friends at the Great Lakes Brewing Company this is an award-winning
00:01:30
Flagship logger that now as of just this month is available in a beautiful 12 ounce and 16 ounce cans
00:01:40
my how we have come a long way and today we are toasting with one of our favorites to some of our favorites first
00:01:48
up cheers to Amber and Humble Texas Amber says the beer that she's buying that she's providing to the Beer fun
00:01:56
Captain is for you because of your awesome takedown of Scott Peterson the cheating Turtle yeah Scott
00:02:05
piece of [ __ ] Peterson and a big shout out to Christy in Melbourne Australia next up we have
00:02:13
Jennifer in Salem New Hampshire and a big shout out to Lori in Dallas Texas next up we have Emily in Chicago and
00:02:21
last but certainly not least a big cheers and thank you to Catherine in Orlando Florida everyone we just
00:02:27
mentioned went to True Crime garage.com and contributed to this week's beer fund
00:02:33
and for that we thank you yeah we thank you and thanks for joining us we know it's tough times
00:02:39
[Music] tough here in the garage keep your distance keep your distance kernel or I'll sock
00:02:47
you in the mouth and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather round at a safe distance grab it too
00:02:54
close grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] foreign [Music] the murders of Stevie Branch Christopher
00:03:32
Byers and Michael Moore all just eight-year-olds was the Genesis of a triple homicide
00:03:39
case that is typically known today as The West Memphis Three however the phrase West Memphis 3 refers
00:03:47
to the three teenagers convicted of killing the three little boys on May 5th 1993 in a town west of
00:03:57
Memphis and appropriately named West Memphis Arkansas the three eight-year-old boys were
00:04:03
reported missing initial police searches that night were limited a more thorough search for the boys
00:04:10
began the next morning at 8 am after 1 pm the boys were found but not to a good end
00:04:19
all were dead found submerged in muddy creek water each boy had been stripped and what has
00:04:27
been commonly referred to as hogtie each with shoelaces belonging to the boys the drainage ditch contained two of the
00:04:37
children's bikes and the clothing that the boys were wearing when last seen alive
00:04:43
the clothing was mostly turned inside out and twisted around sticks and stuck in the mud below the surface water
00:04:53
the Frank Peretti autopsies indicated that Christopher died from multiple injuries and possibly bled to death
00:05:01
Stevie and Michael died from multiple injuries and drowning they were murdered the bodies and evidence concealed in the
00:05:11
Muddy Waters located in a small patch of woods known as Robin Hood Hills almost one month later
00:05:22
on June 3rd at 2 44 in the afternoon detective Brian Ridge and inspector Gary gitchel got 17 year old Jesse Miss Kelly
00:05:33
to confess to being involved in the murders the confession filled with inconsistencies errors and statements
00:05:41
that go against some of the very basic known facts of this case Jesse implicated 16 year old Jason
00:05:49
Baldwin an 18 year old Damian Eckles as the assailants rapist and murderers the three boys
00:05:58
the next morning at a press conference announcing the arrest of the three teenagers inspector
00:06:05
gitchel was asked by a reporter on a scale of one to ten how solid do you feel your case is
00:06:13
Mitchell smiled and replied 11. legendary FBI profiler John Douglas later called this moment that Golden
00:06:24
Nugget of law enforcement theater in 1994 the three teens were convicted of the murders
00:06:32
David Burnett was the presiding judge Damien Eccles was sentenced to death Jason Baldwin was sentenced to life
00:06:41
imprisonment and in a separate trial Jesse Miss Kelly Jr was sentenced to life in prison plus two
00:06:49
20-year sentences the HBO documentary Paradise Lost the Child Murders At Robinhood Hills
00:06:57
documented the case in the two trials the now famous film which was followed by Parts two and three
00:07:05
inspired Justice Advocates to unite and take action an army was formed men and women some of them celebrities
00:07:16
some of them from far away all United for one common cause free The West Memphis Three
00:07:25
but if the West Memphis Three were innocent then who committed the murders many after watching the documentaries
00:07:33
grew suspicious regarding two of the parents Christopher's adoptive father John Mark
00:07:39
Byers and Stevie Branch's stepfather Terry Hobbs both look guilty for different reasons
00:07:47
following a successful decision regarding newly produced DNA evidence The West Memphis Three negotiated a plea
00:07:55
bargain with prosecutors in August of 2011 they entered Alfred please which allowed them to assert
00:08:02
their innocence while acknowledging that the prosecutors had enough evidence to convict them
00:08:08
after having served 18 years and 78 days in prison Judge David laser accepted the
00:08:15
police and sentenced the three to time served and they were released in a packed courtroom judge laser spoke
00:08:23
from the bench quote I am aware of the controversy that's existed I'm aware of the involvement of the
00:08:31
people in this case I don't think it will make the pain go away to the victim families
00:08:38
I don't think it will take away a minute of the 18 years that these three young men served in the Arkansas Department of
00:08:46
Corrections what I just described is tragedy on all sides and I commend the people in the case
00:08:55
that have assisted toward the end of seeing the justices served to the best that we can do
00:09:02
it took nearly 20 years to write just some of the many wrongs in this case but somewhere along the way of this long
00:09:12
journey that took the Valiant efforts of so many something was lost and almost forgotten
00:09:21
the three little boys that were killed and lost their lives that day the families of these three will never
00:09:29
get them back so this is not the best we can do because there's still time to get
00:09:36
Justice for Stevie Christopher and Michael the Forgotten West Memphis Three [Music]
00:09:55
foreign [Music] [Music] Bob how much did Paradise Lost one two and three play a part into your look
00:10:21
into the case was it any type of inspiration for selecting this case uh take us into to the Bob Ruff World a
00:10:29
little bit on why you chose the West Memphis Three yeah you know it's funny because
00:10:34
Paradise Lost the entire Trilogy did play a big role in why I selected the case for truth and justice but in a
00:10:42
weird kind of way um you know I would I I study wrongful conviction cases because that's what I
00:10:48
do for a living right so it's um I always go into these big famous ones and study them just to look for you
00:10:54
know patterns and things to look for because we get we get hundreds of cases every month submitted to us to look at
00:10:59
and so I like to see you know what you know is there a jailhouse Niche involved you know there's is there not much
00:11:04
physical evidence is there you know a potential wrongful or uh false false confession there's a lot of little
00:11:10
patterns that happen so I was just watching the documentaries just to get an idea of what the case was about and
00:11:18
what inspired me actually to to cover the case on truth and Justice was actually the fact that after I watched
00:11:25
the series and I was trying to talk to to Mike my producer and and co-host about it I couldn't remember the names
00:11:32
of the victims and and and it bugged me a lot and I really started to think about it and I
00:11:38
started to look you know to do a little more Googling and things and I just found that
00:11:43
all of the media attention always focused Around The West Memphis Three you know
00:11:48
Damien Jason and Jesse and and our show we try to be very victim-centric you know and based on the victims not only
00:11:55
you know to try to give them a voice but at the same time that is you know critical to any real investigation
00:12:03
should always start with a very thorough study of victimology to help develop a profile and it just seemed like that was
00:12:10
never done in this case and certainly in the media you know while those documentaries were amazing and so was
00:12:15
west of Memphis and and they accomplished an amazing goal of freeing The West Memphis Three that never would
00:12:21
have happened without them they I didn't feel like there was enough Justice given to the victims and that's
00:12:28
why we you know we named our our season five on the podcast and the TV series The Forgotten West Memphis Three because
00:12:34
they seem to have gotten lost in a lot of the shuffle what do you think you learn by studying
00:12:41
these three victims well the biggest thing that I learned by studying them is that my perception and
00:12:48
the perception of I'll say casual observers of the case because there are certainly people that
00:12:54
have been digging into like documents for for decades now but but the general consensus always seem to be that there
00:13:02
were three boys who were just out playing having a great afternoon and then they
00:13:08
ended up kind of stumbling into however they were killed uh you know and of course back in the 90s with the satanic
00:13:15
Panic they assumed they stumbled into a Satanic ritual killing but then then later it became they stumbled into
00:13:22
something else or they look at like the the Bojangles man or you know maybe it was some you know some transient trucker
00:13:28
or somebody uh but what I found when I studied the victimology I was shocked and we spent I think three full hour
00:13:34
episodes going through the 140 page door-to-door notes in the case from the the canvassing after the bodies were
00:13:41
found and what I found when we start to piece all of those sidings together is that
00:13:46
the boys actually weren't together most of the day first of all you know you had
00:13:50
Stevie and Michael were together for a minute or for a little while and then Christopher was alone and then maybe
00:13:55
Christopher and Michael and Stevie was gone there's definitely a big gap in time when Stevie was was missing in
00:14:01
action when I was when I believe he actually returned to his house for a short time uh and you know and then they
00:14:07
they only became got together right before they went into the woods and then and then of course the revelation we
00:14:13
find in the notes that one of Chris's friends reported that that uh Chris straight told him that you know he was
00:14:20
upset because his daddy whipped him and that he was running away and so the the big I think the the thing that I learned
00:14:26
most was that these boys didn't stumble into anything they were running away from something and that dramatically
00:14:33
changes the course of the investigation now obviously you are covering this case
00:14:37
many many years after the fact but when the initial uh doc documentary was planned to do the first Paradise Lost
00:14:46
and they received permission to film or record both of the trials that were to take place the documentarians went in
00:14:55
there with the idea that these three teenagers were guilty like that was a juicy enough story in itself and then
00:15:03
once they're viewing the the trials they start hearing the evidence and and the uh eyewitness testimony and so on and so
00:15:11
forth and they start going well there's something that's not right here this this doesn't appear to be the actual
00:15:16
case and then of course Paradise Lost turns into almost this movement to try to free The
00:15:23
West Memphis Three when you went into this and of course we understand it was years later but did you go into it with
00:15:30
with the idea of okay these guys are completely innocent or maybe Mark Byers had something to do with this sir Terry
00:15:38
Hobbs or I mean did you go into this with anything uh prior thought uh of what knowledge you had of the case or
00:15:46
did you not really have an opinion of it at all until you started looking into it
00:15:51
oh I definitely had an opinion but I tried to yeah I tried to approach it from a
00:15:57
really unbiased perspective because now you both of you guys I I know um uh definitely Captain I don't know
00:16:05
Nick were you were you a big Fan's not the right word but were you really interested in the case for for
00:16:10
years to come or was that more just Captain's thing yeah I mean it's always been one of my uh pet cases I guess it's
00:16:17
it's one that's so easy to get sucked into um and actually just knowing that we were going to talk today
00:16:25
pulled me right back in I mean it's one of the most fascinating cases out there right it really is so when you watch and
00:16:32
and I guess I'll I'll ask uh you and Captain because I wanna I wanna know if I'm alone in this
00:16:37
after you watched if you watch them in order after you watch part two of The Paradise Lost series
00:16:45
who did you think was probably the most likely suspect so that's what's so interesting to me
00:16:50
about Paradise one and two is and I might have had a different opinion after watching the first one than maybe most I
00:16:59
watched that first one on HBO when I was a kid I don't know how many times and I
00:17:04
always walked away from the first one going you know what I actually think these three teenagers did it and then of
00:17:10
course you watch Paradise Lost two and it looks like Mark Byers he just time and time again comes up
00:17:19
looking guilty and more guilty and that he was the one that did it and of course
00:17:23
he's also this large loud imposing man uh he's also an authority figure to Chris and the other boys as well
00:17:32
he might know the area I mean there's just so many reasons why you can go all right well maybe maybe he looks good for
00:17:38
this right and that was exactly my experience I was born Captain do you have did you think the same after you
00:17:44
watched part two well after I watched part one my first thought was that I feel Jason Baldwin is very transparent
00:17:53
he's very believable in everything he's saying I I believe a hundred percent that he had nothing to
00:18:00
do with the crime than when you look at the confession with Jesse Miss Kelly it doesn't really
00:18:06
line up with what the crime actually was but I could never get over the boogeyman
00:18:12
comment from Damien Eccles oh yeah at the end at the end of part one he's like well now I'm going to be
00:18:20
known as like the boogeyman of West Memphis and kids are going to say well maybe Damien's under my bed or he's in
00:18:27
the closet and that to me didn't seem like something a innocent person would say oh for sure I mean really kind of
00:18:35
spot on with what you think happened when I watched part one I thought maybe they're innocent
00:18:42
um definitely I felt like Baldwin was innocent but Damien I wasn't so sure about and then after I watched part two
00:18:48
I was convinced that Mark Byers was that was the murderer I mean 100 I remember coming in because I watched these late
00:18:57
it was just three years ago I remember coming to the office and telling Mike I was like dude holy [ __ ] that that this
00:19:03
this guy this guy killed him the the adopted father killed him that he had his teeth removed and blah blah you know
00:19:08
all the different things from there I was convinced after part two that it was that it was Mark Byers and that's you
00:19:15
know that's kind of why I was you know when you asked if I had to kind of an opinion
00:19:19
That Swing from there then of course after three everybody thinks Terry Hobbs did it right you know that's that's kind
00:19:25
of what they left you with and then west of Memphis and so for me it was like okay I need to
00:19:30
approach this from a completely unbiased perspective because Joe Berlinger just just [ __ ] me up in three documentaries
00:19:38
in a row because you know I didn't watch them as it came out I watched all three
00:19:41
of them back to back over the course of a week and I watched you know based on the way
00:19:46
they were produced I went from thinking oh maybe they're guilty Jason's probably
00:19:49
innocent to oh my God it has to be Mark Byers it's obvious to part three he was like oh no it has to be Terry Hobbs it's
00:19:58
obvious I was like man if I'm being swayed that much by the media there's got to be a lot more to this case than
00:20:03
the way they're presenting it and so that that really led me into taking a completely unbiased approach and try to
00:20:10
look at the investigation which is what we did in season five when we covered through the uh The West Memphis Three is
00:20:15
to go all the way back to ground zero and just basically start a brand new investigation and see where it leads us
00:20:22
well I became a big fan of yours when you were covering cereal and I really like the approach that you
00:20:30
took there where you you had a thought process and then you kind of try to prove yourself wrong and I always I
00:20:38
always like taking that approach but to me West Memphis Three is very similar to
00:20:43
the addonside case where people look at the case and we are presented from these documentaries we're
00:20:51
presenting all these cast of characters and people always see like you said are the teenage boys
00:21:00
guilty yeah or is it one of this the stepfathers and everybody seems to have strong opinions of the characters that
00:21:10
are cast for us it seems like not too many people look outside that cast of characters and it it seems like there's
00:21:17
no new cast of characters in West Memphis Three in the last 20 years right well when you
00:21:24
see the uh I know we're recording this before you see the series um and you're airing it after
00:21:29
um but but hopefully you'll you won't have that opinion after this weekend because we have you know I hate to you
00:21:34
know it you're right in the term cast of characters I I don't you know it makes it seem like it's a story but one of the
00:21:40
things I want to do was get away from the The Sensational you know the cameras are always on Damien right and you know
00:21:48
through Paradise Lost it's Damien and John Mark Byers are are key characters and it's because they're the most
00:21:54
interesting right when you're watching it you know you you know Damien is saying things like well I'm gonna be the
00:21:59
boogeyman under their bed and Mark Byers is blowing up [ __ ] pumpkins and and you know
00:22:05
light and bonfires at the at the discovery site uh but there's there's a lot more
00:22:12
important characters I think that that you've never seen on on TV before you've never seen it in the
00:22:20
documentaries you've never seen it anywhere you know we have you know I don't know how you want you want me to
00:22:26
uh mention do you want me to spoil some of what's coming up since they're gonna hear it after or no well how about we
00:22:33
just since since it's going that route how about we just dive into some of the details of the case and get your opinion
00:22:39
on some of those okay question marks and if it comes up it comes up if it doesn't
00:22:45
we'll force you into it here at the end um sure I'd hate to spoil it too early in our discussion uh because we got a
00:22:53
lot of questions a lot of things on our mind it's rare for us we we think we know the case very well we covered it on
00:23:00
True Crime garage a long time ago um we it's way too big to cover it in in just a few episodes we tried in three
00:23:08
but all we really thought that we achieved was we pointed out a timeline that came from from very credible
00:23:17
sources and from police reports and and eyewitness statements and so on and so forth that seem to indicate that it
00:23:23
would have been very difficult almost impossible on the timeline for John Mark buyers to have
00:23:30
committed the crime especially by himself we we found a timeline that seemed to be that he was with somebody
00:23:37
else and and a whole different batch of people along the way pretty much most of
00:23:43
that evening and night so um I think the first thing and this is really good for people that don't know
00:23:50
the case very well um but but we're excited to get to talk to you because we feel you know this
00:23:56
case really well and that's why we want to get your opinions on these things but
00:24:01
for the people that don't know the case well one thing I think the public may have trouble grasping but they do need
00:24:07
to understand as it's very important to how things played out the way they did so
00:24:13
I think if you could kind of talk to this a little bit but we need to have an understanding of the level of poverty
00:24:19
here in regards to the three boys that were arrested for the murders and in regards to the lifestyle of the three
00:24:28
young victims because the the three that were arrested they were extremely poor unfortunately
00:24:35
and the three victims were a little more middle class um could you talk and expand on that a
00:24:42
bit yeah the what's interesting really is that a little more middle class I guess is a
00:24:49
good way to put it but the the entire you know Captain used the term cast of characters earlier and
00:24:55
if you look at it like that the entire cast of characters here they're all you know at the poverty line
00:25:02
or below the including the victims families you know you see you have definitely the the three convicted you
00:25:08
know they're they're living in very uh low low rent trailer parks you know and I've been out to these places they
00:25:17
haven't changed much since then um definitely on the lower income scale uh but but even the three the three
00:25:25
victims you know you had you know the the the buyers everybody was working they had jobs and they were getting by
00:25:31
but these people definitely weren't thriving and you had an interesting situation in just about every family you
00:25:40
know you had you know we had on our show we had Don Moore who's Michael Moore's sister who had never been interviewed
00:25:46
before and she was on the podcaster in season five and she gave us a whole new look into the uh the household of the
00:25:54
Moors right so their issue their scent seemed like it was alcoholism she said that you know both her mom and dad were
00:26:00
alcoholics it was an abusive situation and so that wasn't the you know the the picture I had when the studying
00:26:06
victimology of what that household looks like you know you go across the street to the buyer's household and you know
00:26:12
again they're getting by but they're they struggle a little bit financially and you have uh you you have some drug
00:26:18
addiction both on um Chris buyer's mother's part and his adoptive father and then you go down to the the Stevie
00:26:28
Branch's household the Hobbs household you know you did Pam and Pam and Terry were both working they seemed on the
00:26:34
surface to be the most stable but then we find out later that there's possibly allegedly some abuse that's going on
00:26:39
there and then also maybe some some drug use down there as well so you had nobody
00:26:44
was in nobody was in good shape so to speak as far as in their household either they're struggling financially
00:26:51
they're struggling struggling with substance of substance abuse or they're struggling with physical abuse in in all
00:26:57
these different communities but but most but definitely the three that were convicted uh Damien Jason and Jesse they
00:27:05
they were throwaways for sure and when I say that I mean that they were as you said they were extremely poor much more
00:27:11
so than the three victims and once they were targeted by police whether they actually believed they did it or if they
00:27:18
were in fact targeted that's up for speculation but once they were targeted there was there was nobody there to to
00:27:25
fight for them they didn't have any money they didn't have lawyers they just you know they were they were throwaways
00:27:29
there were people that I think the powers that be in in particularly the West Memphis Police Department thought
00:27:35
you know we can lock these people up close this case everybody's gonna be happy and no one really cares what
00:27:41
happened to these three kids well I'm back to one of the things you were saying before that when you're looking
00:27:48
at the victimology like you said it changes from here's these three boys hanging out and they
00:27:55
stumble upon something as you were saying you were getting into the idea that they're running from something uh
00:28:03
what evidence did you find could you find evidence to back that up yeah well I mean a a big part of it is
00:28:12
the fact that we we find some weird anomalies throughout the sightings of them throughout the day where they're
00:28:17
not together they disappear and then when you when you we study so let's look at at Stevie branch in particularly
00:28:24
Stevie was probably the most well-behaved of the three based on what we see from you know school reports you
00:28:32
know we had sounds like you know what we would call today Chris Byers and Michael
00:28:35
Moore both suffered from from ADHD which I can relate to I have a nine-year-old that has the same issue
00:28:41
um tend to be a little more mischievous but you know Stevie was a rule follower and he pretty much stayed out of trouble
00:28:46
and he was told that he needed to be home by you know before 30 4 45 um and and so you had to believe that
00:28:53
he's going to do his best to make that happen and then the sightings seem to indicate that that did happen you know
00:28:59
they disappeared and then you have there's some medical evidence that Stevie has partially digested green
00:29:05
vegetable like food in his stomach well that that can only occur for about an hour hour and a half before it moves
00:29:12
past that stage in the stomach which means somewhere along the lines he went and ate some vegetables which would be a
00:29:18
good indication that he he did go home but then he left again so then so then why is he leaving now we don't know but
00:29:25
it it seems like and then if you take Jamie Clark Ballard's statement which you know I don't necessarily think is
00:29:30
entirely credible but she she reports that she sees Terry yelling at him to to get back down there and and just the
00:29:37
fact that Stevie leaves again after dinner and then what we learn later in his victimology study that we have there
00:29:42
there has been reported abuse from uh his stepdad Terry Hobbs and that's come from some family members but also uh and
00:29:50
and people that I've interviewed outside of the family uh have have told us the same thing that you know that they were
00:29:57
always kind of afraid for Stevie because of some beatings that he would take from
00:30:00
Terry so so there's some indications with Stevie Christopher is easier because we he literally went to the
00:30:07
kid's name is Bobby Posey's house in the door-to-door notes and I've spoken with
00:30:11
Bobby Posey we hear from him in the TV series you know and and he he goes to tell Bobby that his daddy had just
00:30:18
whipped him and he's running away so there's no we don't have to speculate about if Chris Byers was running away
00:30:23
because he he told told his friends that he was running away we have other witnesses that we hear from in the TV
00:30:30
series that say that they saw them with sleeping bags heading towards the woods uh and and and Michael Moore was always
00:30:37
kind of the leader of the group there's not so much with him as far as direct evidence other than some things his
00:30:41
sister told us about you know the the situation in the household and and some potential abuse that could have been
00:30:47
happening in the household again that's according to her that's not verifiable so I would say alleged abuse that
00:30:53
happens in the household so all that together and then with the sightings that put them in different places at
00:30:58
different times and then kind of coming together and then going to a place where
00:31:02
where they know they're not supposed to be and the fact that Stevie would go there when he really knows he's supposed
00:31:08
to be at home at that point to me is those are all great indicators that they were running away from something they
00:31:16
weren't they weren't just in that that scary woods across the pipe just to play foreign
00:31:26
[Music] [Music] [Music] s was it Michael Moore that was known to be afraid of those woods uh Chris Byers
00:31:55
Chris Byers yeah yeah he was terrified of the woods according to his uh to Mark Byers and to
00:32:02
his brother who we also hear from in the TV series so what you're saying is it's
00:32:06
not just one of the victims that was quote unquote running away but possibly all three of them or
00:32:15
friends trying to help their friend out oh you're dead whooped you you can't take this anymore I'll help you out I'll
00:32:21
I'll run away with you yeah you know this is kind of somewhat speculation on my part but my theory is that it's kind
00:32:28
of a stand by me type of deal you know where the you were you know the kids are kind of rising up against the you know
00:32:34
the grown-ups and taking matters into their own hands I think that you know again this is my theory is that Chris
00:32:41
was fed up and running away I think that something I I think that Stevie I'll be
00:32:46
honest with you I think Stevie did go home and eat and I think that he left and he was scared and I think that
00:32:51
Michael more than likely was the one that said hey I because we have we have note in the door-to-door notes Michael
00:32:56
actually told the little girl that lived up near the pipe bridge that he's going
00:33:01
to go over to the other side of the bridge to the woods behind Mayflower to his secret hideout so I think I think
00:33:07
Michael becomes the kind of the Savior the leader that says you know these the the other two are they want to run away
00:33:13
and get away from their parents and and Michael says well here I can I know a spot let me lead the way and takes him
00:33:19
over there in John Mark Byers he he admits that he hit Chris that day that afternoon
00:33:27
um that he he disciplined him right yeah and then we have hold on I'm kind of trying to uh digest
00:33:36
all this as we as we go through this here so that's that's what I find very interesting at least about the the Robin
00:33:43
Hood Hills portion of it like do you believe that the boys were killed at Robin Hood Hills I mean from the autopsy
00:33:51
it appears that two of the boys drowned so of course two of them likely died there but
00:33:58
um this is a pretty brutal attack do you think that from the evidence that we see that you've reviewed anyway did
00:34:06
this all take place in Robin Hood Hills uh 100 I I don't think there's any there's a million theories out there uh
00:34:14
but after the thorough studying we've done of the case and the new team of experts we brought in for the TV series
00:34:20
it seems you know as a matter of fact uh Dr Rebecca shoe that was our new uh forensic pathologist that came in and
00:34:27
looked at the autopsy you know her determination was that that all three boys died of drowning
00:34:32
um that that you know there were some other injuries a couple of head injuries but basically all of the brutality that
00:34:40
we see on the boys was all postmortem animal activity that this was a this was not is is complicated as a crime as we
00:34:48
think but the the another big misconception is for people that and you know in one of our episodes I just
00:34:55
mentioned it's funny that my my perception of those woods and where the boy's bodies were found mostly came from
00:35:03
the the the movie adaptation of Merle Levert's book The Devil's not when we see the I'm sure you guys have probably
00:35:10
seen that right yeah yeah it's you know you know at the beginning when it shows them riding their bikes and they kind of
00:35:15
they go around the barrier and go into the woods and it shows them going through this remote Forest back to this
00:35:21
Creek in the middle of this huge Forest well that's where I thought this thing occurred the crime occurred but the
00:35:28
reality of it is this was a tiny little patch of woods about the size of a football field you can literally I've
00:35:36
done it I've stood there and done it stand in the backyard of a house on the other side of the Bayou and throw a rock
00:35:42
to the place where the boy's bodies were found I mean this crime occurred right in the
00:35:48
middle of there's a operating truck wash to the West there's a there's a major Interstate to the north to the South is
00:35:55
the Mayfair apartments and then there's a row of uh of houses with backyards to but right up to the Bayou
00:36:01
so the idea that this could have occurred anywhere besides there is is really in my opinion Preposterous
00:36:08
because that means I mean this is where the search efforts are focused right not
00:36:12
necessarily across the pipe but in the Robin Hood Woods just south of the Bayou south of the pipe some people were in
00:36:19
the woods north of the pipe where the bodies were actually found so the idea that if someone killed these boys or
00:36:25
captured them somewhere else and they need to either a hide the bodies or go you know take them somewhere else to
00:36:31
finally kill them that they would just the the place they would choose is this tiny little patch
00:36:37
of woods where the only way you can get to it is either to park on the highway and walk in to park at the truck wash
00:36:42
and walk in or walk across the pipe bridge in front of the Mayfair apartments carrying these bodies to
00:36:48
conceal them right in the heart of the search efforts is is is bananas there's just no way that would have happened I
00:36:56
think the only reason the boys bodies were concealed where they were found is because that's where the crime occurred
00:37:02
and once it happened I think that the individual and I do think it was a single individual once the boys were
00:37:08
dead they knew I've got to get I've got to hide these bodies and I need to create distance I've gotta I've gotta
00:37:13
I've got to make sure nobody finds these bodies at least long enough for me to get out of here and then appear to be
00:37:20
doing something else that's the only reason I think the bodies were concealed where they were is because there was no
00:37:26
other choice no one's going to choose that spot it's a terrible it couldn't be a worse place to choose to dispose of
00:37:32
body when that's where everybody's looking for those boys especially considering a mile down the road is the
00:37:38
Mississippi River there's a million places you could drop those bodies and they'd never be seen again so you're
00:37:43
saying and I and I hope I got this correct but you're talking about that there's evidence that Stevie ate
00:37:50
something before the crime occurred yeah so in the autopsy there is a notation that's the
00:37:58
other um so the boys from their parents reported that none of them had eaten since their meal in school their lunch
00:38:05
you know 11 12 o'clock in the afternoon or 12 o'clock well so Christopher and Michael's
00:38:11
stomach contents are empty which is what you would expect it takes you know there's a there's a range of time but
00:38:17
for you know active eight-year-old boys with healthy metabolisms the average is like an hour and a half to two hours it
00:38:25
takes for food to move you know to become digested and move out of the stomach or Lumen as it's as it's noted
00:38:31
in the autopsy into the intestines so Stevie they when they when they open up his stomach there's there's quite a bit
00:38:39
of what they call partially digested green vegetables in his stomach which means so he you know I believe that our
00:38:47
window of when the boys were killed is between 6 30 and 7 30 PM which would mean so on the front end of that 6 30 if
00:38:56
you go back hour and a half two hours that means that no later than no earlier than 4 30. Stevie had to have eaten some
00:39:04
vegetables and it could have been as late as as 5 30 6 o'clock even that he ate some vegetables do you think his
00:39:11
family members are just misremembering or do you think that's more nefarious on on stating he he never ate anything I
00:39:20
don't think it's nefarious on saying he never ate anything but but the issue is so he he leaves at 3 30 right with with
00:39:26
Michael Moore is when Michael comes down to get their bikes and go and so the issue is even if Pam Hobbs is or Pam
00:39:34
Hicks now is incorrect she says he didn't eat any snacks he didn't eat anything after school let's say she's
00:39:40
wrong and let's say he did he decided to eat some broccoli as a snack after school
00:39:46
that still because it's 3 30 is the time he leaves if he never returns Home Again
00:39:51
by 5 30 that's that food's gone from his stomach so even if she's wrong about that it still wouldn't be partially
00:39:59
digested in his stomach you know what I mean so so at some point he had to return so
00:40:04
I believe I'll say this that I'm very very confident in in stating I I 100 believe that Stevie Branch contrary to
00:40:14
what's been stated by his stepfather at the time Terry Hobbs I believe absolutely that he did at some point
00:40:23
after five o'clock return home and eat and then he left again now I don't I do not know if Terry was there and knows
00:40:35
that he did that so I'm not saying that Terry's lying in the fact that he said that he never returned home in eight I
00:40:41
don't know that but what I do know or I feel very confident in saying is that Stevie did in fact return home and eat
00:40:48
at some point and then leave again and In fairness to the victim's families it's my understanding that they weren't
00:40:55
properly interviewed from my understanding actually it may appear even in 1993 a couple of them
00:41:03
were not sat down and you know they didn't participate in a thorough interview oh that's 100 correct
00:41:10
and that's that's another part of why I decided to take the case because I feel like if we go back to the beginning and
00:41:16
do this thing right that maybe the answer's been there all along we do a proper investigation and that's why we
00:41:21
took it on the podcast and the TV series but as I mentioned you know that that starts with a proper investigation
00:41:26
starts with victimology and then you start with the people closest to the victims and you work your way out in
00:41:32
concentric circles that was never done in this case so Mark Myers was interviewed multiple times gave recorded
00:41:38
interviews but that was because he went to the police he he's the one that initiated that Pam Hobbs has spoken to a
00:41:46
couple times uh you know you have you have cursory conversations with with Dana Moore and
00:41:53
Melissa Byers uh Todd Moore was never interviewed by police and Terry Hobbs was never interviewed by police at all
00:42:00
not not like a little bit at all which which is which is baffling that they would and it's because they jumped to an
00:42:08
a a a conclusion they jump to an assumption when they when they saw the boys come out and they saw how mutilated
00:42:14
their bodies were which we now know was due to animal activity but back then they didn't know and they decided this
00:42:19
was that Satanic ritual killing they knew was coming Damien Nichols is is the kid that that would do something like
00:42:26
this then they got such tunnel vision that they never did the basic basic steps of a proper investigation
00:42:34
including not just not interviewing the family but in the door-to-door canvassing they never even went door to
00:42:40
door in Stevie Branch's neighborhood at all not as neighbors no one around there we
00:42:47
know now uh Pat we know now uh Captain had asked earlier about uh uh evidence indicating that
00:42:56
that they are actually running from something you know we know now that that Stevie was seen by a woman named Betty
00:43:02
Johnson on 16th Street riding his bike South that afternoon alone that's one of the reasons we know that he went home it
00:43:10
well the only reason we know that wasn't because of the West Memphis Police Department it was because of a newspaper
00:43:16
reporter that started knocking on doors in that area asking people if they had seen the boys and she said yeah I saw
00:43:21
Stevie by himself on his bike riding South on 16th Street that afternoon the police had no idea that happened because
00:43:28
they never asked anybody in the area tell me if I'm wrong about this but there's I've seen where there were
00:43:36
sightings of you know one boy two boys three boys on their bikes and possibly even four boys on their bikes
00:43:45
and a lot of people think that fourth boy could have been uh Vicki hutchison's son
00:43:51
right which I I don't believe that by the way but did you see any reports of of four
00:43:57
boys together yeah there were there were a few Point reports with four boys together as a matter of fact in our
00:44:01
timeline that we put together based on all those door-to-door notes I I showed that I called a mystery boy but they're
00:44:08
you know one of the big sightings was when Darlene Hollingsworth sees the boy and sees you know that she says she sees
00:44:14
three boys on bikes and so people think oh that's the West Memphis it's the three boys except for Chris didn't have
00:44:20
a bike especially not that time in the afternoon he wasn't on a bike so that third boy is actually a fourth
00:44:26
boy and she describes him as being heavy set with dark hair well that doesn't describe either of the
00:44:31
any of the three victims were all thin so so that siding along with a few others is who you know we deemed mystery
00:44:38
boy and you actually hear from you know we figured out who that was and actually
00:44:42
interviewed him on the the TV series who the mystery boy was um and then there's another you know
00:44:48
other sightings where there's four boys going into the woods right before they're killed
00:44:52
so there's another potential uh fourth boy but I don't think that it's I mean well for example for starters as I said
00:44:59
we we know who that fourth boy was now um but I've never believed it was it was um Aaron Hutchison because the the
00:45:06
evidence now it's been a little while you may know more about it than me now because it's been a couple years since
00:45:11
I've studied it but it seemed to be pretty clear that Aaron Hutchison went home that day after school he wasn't in
00:45:17
the and he didn't live in that neighborhood he lived out in the trailer park so he wasn't even around that
00:45:21
afternoon right and he gives dozens of different stories as to what he says he witnessed or saw
00:45:29
when he supposedly saw the kids being killed right which is it's it's awful what what the police did to that poor
00:45:37
boy you know what they put him through and I mean he he names different suspects in
00:45:41
each one of the stories too the the suspects don't even remain the same um and then he he says certain things
00:45:48
took place on the victims or to the victims that we know just by the the autopsies did not
00:45:55
did not occur at all regarding the timeline that you're piecing together one thing that's always stood out
00:46:03
is that Pam Hobbs uh you said now Pam now Pam Hicks her and Terry hobbs's timeline for that
00:46:13
night never really seemed to match up 100 percent we it's my understanding that Pam Hobbs
00:46:20
worked that evening and that Terry drove her to her place of employment and then
00:46:26
picked her up at the end of her shift right that evening with your with your movement of Stevie branch
00:46:34
do we have him leaving their house if he fact it did return to the Hobbs household do we have him leaving before
00:46:44
Pam goes off to work before Terry has to drive her to work no I don't think there's any question that he hadn't
00:46:49
returned yet uh before Pam went to work I mean that was is pretty obvious from you know from Pam statements herself
00:46:56
that you know she was upset because Stevie wasn't there that Terry was upset when he got home because Stevie wasn't
00:47:02
home when he was supposed to be they left and then she first finds out something had happened when Terry picks
00:47:07
her up from work I don't see any you know I'll say this I believe her 100 that that's what happened there's no
00:47:14
reason for her to to lie about that and and sadly we've all saw Pam's reaction which you found out what happened to
00:47:21
Stevie you know it was you know it was it was on you know the news it was on the paradise law series
00:47:28
um so yeah I I don't think Stevie I think that was the issue I think that personally this and again I'm I'm giving
00:47:36
you a theory here but I believe that Terry and Pam left to take Pam to work and Stevie probably ended up coming home
00:47:44
shortly thereafter you know kind of missed him and and then the question is did Terry ever come home then after he
00:47:52
dropped Pam off and and have some interaction or communication with Stevie or did Stevie leave again before Terry
00:47:59
got back now when you watch these documentaries and when you study the case which
00:48:07
and I'll I'll keep going with our theme of characters which character were you most interested in and
00:48:17
and what did you what do you think you learned by talking to them as a suspect or as a like a personality well not a
00:48:23
not as a suspect but just just anybody uh as far as the documentaries Go I mean like if I was you know I rewatched a
00:48:32
Paradise Lost one two and three recently and I'd go if if I could talk to anybody
00:48:38
I'd like to talk to uh Damien I like to talk to Terry Hobbs I would like to talk to Mark Byers those
00:48:47
are the first three individuals I'd I'd want to interview right yeah and I've interviewed all well I haven't
00:48:52
interviewed Terry but um I I don't know if I can if I can point one out but I guess I can walk through a
00:48:58
few of those like you mentioned so um Damien uh I really like Damien you know when I went to go meet him at first
00:49:06
and interview him I was I I shockingly I was or stupidly I guess I was surprised to find out that he's a
00:49:13
pretty normal guy you know because he's you know his his character so that we've seen on TV and
00:49:19
and kind of his character we see in his social media and stuff like that you know he's into this ceremonial magic
00:49:25
stuff which seems very Mystic and and very artsy but you know I've sat around talking about football Damien every
00:49:32
anytime I'm in New York I usually try to catch up with him and Lori and we'll go
00:49:35
off for pizza and you know last time we were there we went you know we went we went to a pizza place Damien's favorite
00:49:40
place we had pizza we hung out for a couple hours and then he he took me to a place called insomnia cookies because he
00:49:46
swear they had the best cookies in the world and they were the best cookies in the world uh and so I guess what was
00:49:53
interesting to find out with him is that he's he said Damien's a normal guy like
00:49:58
he's he he he's interested in something that a lot of people don't necessarily relate with which is you know his uh I
00:50:05
don't even call the faith of religion but his the serial ceremonial magic that he's that he's into
00:50:11
but you know regardless whether you can relate with that or not he's a very personal very normal guy doesn't like
00:50:18
talking about the case just likes just chatting about life and I I enjoy Damien's company whenever when I'm
00:50:24
around him um Jason Baldwin it's kind of surprised me the other way he seemed like very a
00:50:29
very much a vanilla kind of character but then when I when I went down and actually met with him and and you know
00:50:34
we went out to lunch and then interviewed in person he's he's full of fire actually we just I don't know if
00:50:39
you listen to it uh if either one of you guys did but we just aired two-part uh uh two episodes of an interview I did
00:50:46
with Jason back in 2018 that nobody had heard before and and he's he's got fire in his eyes
00:50:52
that I didn't know was there um he seems he seems extremely interested in finding out who actually
00:51:01
did this very much so of of the three where to me it feels like Damien is more involved with his causes uh I think he's
00:51:11
involved with the um the innocent people being on death row or I don't know the name of it offhand but
00:51:17
um he seems to be very driven toward that where Baldwin seems fully vested uh invested in
00:51:26
finding out who did this clearing his name and he's one of those people that I mean the interview is great but you know
00:51:33
the captain and I have always kind of thought this if Jason and Damien would have been tried separately and Jason
00:51:42
would have been tried first we find it very difficult that that they would have found him guilty a lot of that based off
00:51:48
of his character and his personality and of course that there just was no evidence but
00:51:54
um to hear your interviews with him really takes his character as you said to the extreme because he does seem very
00:52:03
vanilla on the surface but when he starts talking about the case or talking about
00:52:09
things that were going on in West Memphis at the time that they were charged with the crimes he's one he's
00:52:15
fascinating and two he's very dialed into what he was doing and I found his very detailed alibi
00:52:22
to be incredibly one interesting and Incredibly believable yeah I agree on all on all
00:52:29
counts I agree and especially the fact that if he wasn't tried with Damien I think he for sure would have been
00:52:35
acquitted you know he was he was uh he was collateral damage really well and I think that's one thing that gets lost in
00:52:41
the shuffle there is that we we have Jesse Miss Kelly who gives this this bad confession he's offered a bit of a
00:52:48
reduced sentence because they want him to testify against Baldwin and Eckles at trial one simply just to introduce the
00:52:57
confession to that trial he says look I'm not going to testify against them basically because it's not
00:53:05
true and then Baldwin gets the opportunity to testify against Eccles and he turns it down as well where
00:53:14
that shows something to the character of these still very young men these teenagers at the time
00:53:22
you know there's a lot of meta that you see in the documentaries when that part when the trial is happening in Paradise
00:53:27
Lost one and Baldwin's reaction to when uh when when his attorney I think was Paul Ford
00:53:37
asks him after Damien testified on camera he asked Jason so do you think that he's guilty
00:53:44
and if you watch that scene that scene right there is what convinced me that Jason Baldwin has no clue what actually
00:53:52
happened because you watched you could see it in his eyes that he was thinking and then I think his response was
00:53:58
you know I they sure made him seem like he did and it was like holy [ __ ] he really
00:54:03
doesn't know that kid does not know who killed those boys yeah he does not know and and he's thinking it through because
00:54:10
you see his it's almost his reaction you can read his mind and it's like he wasn't with Damon that that evening he
00:54:18
wasn't with Echols that writing so he doesn't he's he's kind of clueless as to he's not asked did you
00:54:25
in Eccles do this together he's just asked did Damien Eccles do this and he's going
00:54:31
well they sure made him look guilty you almost see that he is about to say well I don't know and I think he was smart
00:54:39
enough to go well they see they sure made him look guilty because that I don't know statement would have just
00:54:45
been a an odd one for for the argument against uh Damien anyway yeah and it just to me it was like I
00:54:54
could see you know for me I I would see in his mind him thinking Jesus Christ did he do it
00:54:59
like like maybe he did I don't know I wasn't with him you know maybe he did do it I don't know they made him seem like
00:55:04
he did but you know again like for me what you know what I'm looking at is not necessarily what that means for Damien
00:55:09
but what does it mean for Jason and it was like obviously he didn't have anything to do with it was it which
00:55:14
again is just one more thing that even if that was the case if it was just that Jason was innocent it just again tears
00:55:21
the stage case down their entire Theory down because it was supposed to be them together and the confession had all of
00:55:27
them together well and how did his how did Baldwin's Alibi Fall Apart because doesn't he claim to he he went
00:55:36
with with a different friend that's that's not really known to most the people that have taken a quick look at
00:55:42
the case he went with a different friend to uh cut his uncle's lawn and then I think I and correct me if I'm wrong
00:55:52
because I'm going off a memory here but I believe that he he and the friend went
00:55:56
and did something afterward and Baldwin is saying hey I remember this date because I sold him a cassette tape
00:56:04
um that day and that you know as we discussed already these kids are dirt poor he remembers that day because he
00:56:12
one he probably did a chore that may have earned him some money and if he didn't get paid from the uncle he had
00:56:18
he at the very least received some money for that cassette tape from his friend yeah the the friend that was with him
00:56:25
was uh Ken Watkins uh and I think the issue is that alibi was and I'm working for memory too on this part of it you
00:56:33
know because when I did the case and we I looked at okay if I take this investigation from the beginning and do
00:56:38
it properly where does it take us well the problem with that is it never takes you anywhere near the direction of the
00:56:44
West Memphis Three so we had to kind of force that in to go like okay well let's see how they got
00:56:49
here and why so I I've never really focused a whole lot on their trial since then but if if memory serves it had to
00:56:57
do with the fact that when they questioned Ken Watkins because you know because Jason says tells his lawyers that yeah I
00:57:03
was with Ken Watkins after the lawn mowing Damien left with domini and then Ken and I went to Walmart and we played
00:57:10
video games and then he said yeah you should there was an Asian kid there too you should ask him whose name ended up
00:57:15
being Don NAMM uh was the Asian kid that was there and he's like these guys can verify my alibi but then you know months
00:57:22
and months and months later when when Watkins and Nam get interviewed uh before trial they they don't confirm his
00:57:32
Alibi they don't remember it or they don't give the right information I don't remember the details exactly about it
00:57:37
but basically they didn't they didn't corroborate what what Jason had said so I don't think they ever ended up
00:57:43
testifying well just to play a little bit of a devil's advocate here after I watched Paradise Lost One
00:57:51
I started thinking well is is it as simple as they had Damian on a list and that's it
00:58:02
and they just went with this and this kid had long black hair listened to heavy metal and he's kind of a freak
00:58:10
Show and we believe that this was done by a freak Show or was there is there a little bit more to it like you said if
00:58:18
you if you investigate it properly then you're going through the proper channels but you're still going to have
00:58:25
a juvenile officer come forward and say look out of all the people in the town that I think possibly could have done
00:58:32
this here here's a kid's name on the list that you might want to look into yeah but the problem with that is that
00:58:40
like that's [ __ ] crazy I mean you know I mean imagine in your town there's a murder in the entire
00:58:47
investigation is based on some dude's hunch like oh I know a guy that would do this
00:58:52
you know it's crazy no but I I still think there that's reason to look into an individual and then when you hear
00:59:00
statements that this individual also which maybe he said it maybe he didn't you know at a at a a softball game
00:59:08
saying that he that he killed these two boys and that he's going to kill more or
00:59:12
two two more when uh before he was done yeah I I think it's it's reason to believe that you should look into this
00:59:20
individual I'll give you that I think that you know it if someone's got this hunch or at
00:59:26
least when that information comes forward like the softball information sure you look at them but then there's a
00:59:31
there's a there's a big chicken and egg problem with Damien too in the fact like
00:59:35
say say that statement if the softball whether it happened or not yeah I I tend to think that maybe some version of it
00:59:42
did happen uh but but it's because I think it's because you know he was in he was targeted he was interviewed within
00:59:49
hours of the boys being found he was harassed the police were asking all of his friends all of his family they were
00:59:55
calling him in repeatedly to the point where this rebellious teenager is like screw these guys you know and and so I
01:00:02
my opinion I think you know Damien says he doesn't really remember that happening and he says he certainly
01:00:07
wouldn't have confessed something he didn't do but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities if he was at
01:00:11
a game or whatever there and you know somebody's like dude I heard that you did it and he's like oh yeah I did it I
01:00:17
killed them and I'm gonna kill some more similar to his Boogeyman comment um but certainly once
01:00:24
that you hear that that you heard this guy confess to it yeah you interview him but would he ever would any of that have
01:00:31
happened if they weren't offering rewards to a bunch of poor people and harassing Damien and spreading the word
01:00:38
around town that it was Damian who did it then would any of these statements have
01:00:42
ever come out I personally don't think they ever would have I think if they took this case and they and they said
01:00:48
and they they waited until they had the proper medical evaluation and said okay these kids were hit over the head
01:00:54
drowned and and buried there okay so that's that every indication there is that this is
01:01:00
someone with a known personal relationship with the boys the FBI was offering to help with profiling
01:01:04
so let's go interview and they should have already done so let's interview every single parent every brother every
01:01:10
neighbor and let's start let's start piecing things together and I think that if you
01:01:16
I'm dancing here but if I think that if you did that if you start at the center and work your way out very quickly the
01:01:27
person or people whose Alibis don't check out that aren't where they said they were that have unaccounted for time
01:01:34
and behavior would would have become very apparent very quickly we're in this mess we're in
01:01:41
now 27 years later because that was never done and if you do that I think that you never end up even
01:01:48
if some juvenile probation officer is like well I think that Damon Nichols was a Satanist well if you waited for the
01:01:53
proper evidence you know that there was nothing about this crime scene that indicated it was a Satanic ritual
01:01:58
whatsoever well and there was what's weird about that that statement of oh I heard Damian Echols say this at a
01:02:06
softball game or or whatever I think it was a Mara leverett's book The Devil's not where there's some some
01:02:14
evidence to suggest that even at times maybe investigators were going around town with a photograph of Damien Eccles
01:02:22
and they're asking individuals about the case if they know anything about the the
01:02:26
murders and they're also showing this Photograph that's almost implying that this man this boy is is in somehow
01:02:34
connected to the murders themselves and you can almost see a situation where because he knows he's being looked at
01:02:43
and he's being harassed during this whole time that that he's overheard discussing that with somebody and and
01:02:50
they misconstrue it completely and you point out something that's very very big here is the reward the all these people
01:02:58
are poor and now we got this money sitting on it on a table up for grabs if you have any information tell us and
01:03:06
let's put these put these devil worshipers Behind Bars and and here's your your your pot of gold
01:03:13
that that money was never officially paid out to anyone that we know of right it no one knows where it went
01:03:22
they've been able to keep that pretty pretty tight-lipped uh well yeah I might have went to Vicki Hutchinson who knows
01:03:29
um question for you you said something that I find very interesting a lot of people
01:03:34
that think that the West Memphis Three are guilty of this crime a lot of people will cite that well this
01:03:44
is a crime that couldn't have been done by one individual and you you stated earlier that you believe it was done by
01:03:51
a single individual what makes you believe that there there's a there's a lot of things
01:03:56
I have to do with the the profile of the crime scene you know we've worked with with Jim Clementi doing crime scene
01:04:01
reconstruction and and studying the behavior exhibited here um in my own analysis was the same
01:04:07
people think that one you know how would one person kill three boys but that's that's part of why the profile indicates
01:04:15
that this is someone not only with a known personal relationship but also an authority figure to these eight-year-old
01:04:21
boys which is pretty much about any adult right uh it's very easy to see say one boy gets punished and which results
01:04:31
in him being unconscious and the other boy's freaking out and for that that single figure to to yell you know you
01:04:38
get your butts back here or come back or I'm gonna do this or whatever and and you could literally you know as a I've
01:04:47
said this before on the podcast the you know as a grown man myself I could easily grab three eight-year-old boys by
01:04:55
the you know by the Naps of their neck by the collars of their shirt you know one one hand and two in the other and
01:05:00
grab them and hold them underwater all three at the same time you know it's not you know I've wrestled around with my
01:05:04
with my boy in his in his friends you know it's it's so it's definitely not necessary for there to be three
01:05:11
the forensics and the crime scene seem to indicate that there was one you know that it's the same kind of patterns
01:05:17
happening on all of them people like to cite well this knot was tied differently
01:05:21
than this knot but they were all a series of half-hitches basically you know some of them were double triple
01:05:26
whatever but it's basically the same type of knot the boys are all tied up in the same way you just don't see that
01:05:32
that happen with three different people right so so the boys were tied up in a very unique way with ankles to to wrists
01:05:40
so what you're stating is with the the knots the the knots were the same type of night knots It's just sometimes there
01:05:48
were multiple knots instead of just yeah so I have hit a half hedge knot as a basic like the first knot you tie in
01:05:56
your shoes you know over under and pull it tight yeah and you know a double knot
01:06:00
and a triple knot and a quadruple knot they're all they're all different variations of that knot
01:06:05
but what's more important is to look at the very unique way of how the boys were
01:06:10
tied right ankle to right wrist left ankle to right wrist that that was done you know no one would
01:06:17
direct someone to tie them in that particular way because there's no utility in it right it doesn't stop
01:06:23
someone from running it doesn't it doesn't keep them from being able to untie themselves it's not hog tying like
01:06:29
like some would say it's it's pretty clearly this was done post-mortem or at least post you know when someone's
01:06:35
unconscious I think Michael Moore did you a little bit of bruising from one of the ligatures which could mean he still
01:06:41
had some amount of heartbeat left when that was put on but the others show none so you know if there's multiple people
01:06:47
and you're directing them you know do you say hey when you tie them up make sure you tie right wrist to right ankle
01:06:53
left wrist to right ankle you wouldn't do that you know you're just gonna you're trying to tie them up
01:06:58
in my opinion the reason they were tied that way was to create a smaller package
01:07:01
to keep them under the water uh so that they didn't they didn't reveal themselves I think it was probably a
01:07:06
trial and error I think they're probably put down it didn't work and then they took the clothes off and tied them up
01:07:11
that way um but that's kind of really getting into the weeds but the point is in my
01:07:16
opinion looking at that that crime scene the same person tied all three of those
01:07:20
boys up the same person uh put all three boys into the water in the clothes everything is too uniform for there to
01:07:27
have been multiple people there and also I mean plain and simple two people can't keep a secret like this
01:07:34
for that long it's impossible the only way a secret like this gets kept is if only one person knows what happened
01:07:44
[Music] [Music] all right thank you guys so much for joining us in the garage we know it's
01:07:59
difficult times weird times strange times and we appreciate you and we're going to keep going with the flying
01:08:07
garage ship and if you want to listen to our coverage of the West Memphis 3 download the free Stitcher app we have
01:08:14
all of our shows on there and you can go all the way back to July of 2016. listen
01:08:21
to episodes 40 41 and 42 those are the West Memphis Three episodes also we've talked about West Memphis Three I don't
01:08:31
know how many times on our other show off the Record available on Stitcher premium go to our website and you can
01:08:38
click on off the Record and get a free month of listening until tomorrow be good be kind and don't litter
01:08:57
thank you [Music]