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welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and
00:01:49
with me as always is a man that's in possession of the very last can of whoh he is the captain and the only way to
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wonderful five-star reviews on iTunes that's enough of the business Captain everybody gather around grab a chair
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grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime so Captain what happened to Jean Hart
00:03:34
well let me tell you let me tell you all about it okay sit back and relax Captain's taken over
00:03:43
the son of a [ __ ] died yeah after his trial he was immediately returned to prison to finish serving his
00:03:52
300-year sentence mhm on June 4th 1980 while working out in the prison yard he dropped dead at age
00:04:01
34 an autopsy States officially the cause of death was a massive heart attack he had severely clogged arteries
00:04:10
yeah but isn't there some conspiracy that maybe he was drugged yeah and we will get into that but the autopsy
00:04:18
States officially the cause of death was a massive heart attack uh Hart's attorney Garvin Isaacs was quickly
00:04:24
convinced that there was no foul play saying quote his death was natural he said that he looked into it himself the
00:04:32
medical examiner found 96 to 98% blockage in three of the arteries moreover Isaac said Hart had a family
00:04:41
history of heart problems his his brother died at age 38 of a heart attack and his father also died at a young age
00:04:48
of a heart condition right significantly though Hart's autopsy showed that indeed
00:04:54
his visectomy had failed he was still producing sperm mhm after after Hart's death the doctor compared sperm taken
00:05:02
from the murder autopsies with samples of Hart's sperm he earlier recovered from Hart's prison underwear and he said
00:05:09
that nothing he found changed the opinion that he had stated at the trial samples from Hart and from the bodies of
00:05:16
the three girls revealed quote similar numbers of deformed or decomposed sperm right and as you were mentioning
00:05:23
conspiracy theories about Hart being killed well they were abundant mhm and the thoughts were that he was either
00:05:31
killed by prison inmates or secretly by vengeful law enforcement right which we hear this all the time I mean hars
00:05:40
victims if if he's responsible for these murders the victims were kids and so there is you know kind of a what do they
00:05:50
call that P prison Justice yes that takes place according to Dick Wilkerson the former OSBI investigator who wrote
00:05:58
the book Someone cried for the children a large amount of cyanide was confiscated from prisoners at the
00:06:04
mallister state prison the day before Hart died over 1,000 people attended Jee Hart's funeral and no one else was ever
00:06:13
charged with the Girl Scout murders no one else being ever charged but we have a list of other suspects we need to go
00:06:19
through yeah the guilt or innocence of Jean Hart is still one of the most hotly debated Topics in Oklahoma legal circles
00:06:27
today but if Jee Hart didn't do it who did so Camp Scott officials reported seeing strange men around the camp in
00:06:35
the days before the murders Ben Woodward saw some men near a stream running through the camp and on the night of the
00:06:43
murder Barbara and Richard day left the camp to buy milk around 7:30 p.m. yeah they later reported seeing a car parked
00:06:51
with four occupants right outside the gates to the camp the possibilities of others seem endless unless you think
00:06:59
about the familiarity killer would have had to have had with the layout of Camp Scott then even those that believe that
00:07:06
Jee Hart was the killer questioned if Hart could have done it by himself did he act alone yeah well you have three
00:07:14
victims and this is what makes it difficult because how could one person subdue all three little victims at once
00:07:21
and then three killed and carried some distance away all with barely making a sound right plus we also have the
00:07:29
multiple shoe prints that were found supporters of this Theory also cite the widely held belief that the hands of two
00:07:36
of the slain girls were bound using different knots which is debatable the medical examiner cited only a double
00:07:43
half hitch in the cords around the necks of Michelle and Denise while someone else described a slip knot perhaps the
00:07:52
knot disparity if it exists at all comes from the fact that Denise and Michelle were tied up in a very different manner
00:08:00
so let's get into some of these different and some of these possible suspects Captain we have Bill Stevens
00:08:06
William a Stevens who was 22 at the time of the murders he became a key figure at
00:08:11
the murder trial of Jee Hart he was the man whom Garvin Isaac's pointed out as the actual murderer of the three girls
00:08:20
at the trial Joyce Payne and her son testified for the defense that Stevens came to their home the day the Girl
00:08:27
Scouts were killed was scratching on his arms and red stains on his boots they also linked the red flashlight found at
00:08:35
the murder scene to Steven saying it was theirs and Stevens borrowed it right which would make sense because if Hart
00:08:44
stole anything from the farmer the farmer is not convinced that that flashlight came from him right and the
00:08:50
woman's boyfriend Dwayne Peters told Oklahoma authorities that Stevens once claimed to have killed the girls while
00:08:57
having war game hallucinations he said he surveilled Camp Scott just like Vietnam and picked out the most
00:09:04
isolated tent so when he was F fighting uh Charlie back in the day did he also rape Charlie I I cannot during his war
00:09:14
games I cannot attest to that but Peter said that Stevens told him this while the two were driving around the area in
00:09:21
October of 1977 even demonstrating how he covered one of the girls' mouths with his hand Peter said he refused to
00:09:28
believe Stevens thinking he was bluffing until he saw him abduct a woman beat and
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rape her this was indeed the crime for which Stevens and Peters were later incarcerated in Kansas only Stevens
00:09:41
raped the woman the woman was left to die in her car trunk but survived she identified Stevens and Peters in
00:09:49
addition a young girl scout Kimberly Lewis testified that she saw a man who looked like Stevens at the camp the
00:09:57
night of the murders needless to say this eyewitness ID by a young girl of someone seen in an instant and Pitch
00:10:05
Black Knight was and is suspect a further problem for the heart defense was Stevens maintained he was working in
00:10:12
simal the day the girls were killed at Camp Scott Steven's employers confirmed his story with a canceled paycheck and a
00:10:20
time card furthermore at the heart trial forensic chemist Anne Reed said hair found from one of the victims and in the
00:10:29
dead girl's tent didn't match samples of Steven's hair Peters eventually recanted
00:10:34
his tale of Steven's confession and said his girlfriend Joyce Payne fed him bits
00:10:39
and pieces of information from the news about the case so his story linking Stevens to the crime would sound more
00:10:46
credible their plan was for Peters to get paroled or at least transferred to Oklahoma as a reward for providing
00:10:53
information on his fellow inmate Joyce Payne and her son Larry Short were charged with perjury she pled no contest
00:11:02
to A reduced misdemeanor charge and was sentenced in early 1981 to a suspended six-month term the charge against her
00:11:11
son was dismissed Bill Stevens was stabbed to death in his cell at the Kansas State penitentiary in Lancing in
00:11:18
1984 at the age of 27 so maybe it's possible that he's a little off his rocker because of war and maybe by being
00:11:27
so that caused his death in prison if that makes any sense another suspect whose name was circulated was convicted
00:11:34
child rapist and murderer Carl Lee Myers in his murder trial the state presented
00:11:40
evidence of Myers convictions of assault with intent to rape a 12-year-old girl in 1976 for which he received 20 years
00:11:48
two sexual assaults in 1981 against a 13-year-old relative and in 1990 conviction in Rogers County for murder
00:11:57
of Cindy Marzano John Russell an ex-convict who professed to be making a film about the Girl Scout case said the
00:12:05
late Meyers confessed to him about the Girl Scout murders once they were sharing adjacent cells Russell gave the
00:12:12
information to OSBI which would say only that the agents checked out the lead Myers died in 2013 of natural causes
00:12:22
while awaiting execution for the 1996 killing of Marzano there is no evidence linking him to the crimes right and we
00:12:30
have DNA evidence right they collected the evidence they still have it so we can test it not exactly then we have a
00:12:39
truck driver from West Memphis Arkansas name unknown he testified at the trial that he was questioned five times about
00:12:47
his whereabouts that night other than this statement from The Trial we have nothing other than this linking him as a
00:12:55
suspect yeah but I'd like to know more about this individual because you're claiming that possibly he's responsible
00:13:02
for the death of three children roughly the age of well age 8 n and 10 and then in the west Memphis 3 case we have three
00:13:12
victims all of the same age of eight all three bound mhm it's just very similar I
00:13:20
mean I know it's you know a decade apart but it's also you got a truck driver and
00:13:26
the crime in West Memphis happened right by a car wash which had truck washing capabilities right so it's kind of
00:13:34
interesting there John Clayton pots this is a cousin of Jee Hart who was 21 at the time of the Girl Scout murders he
00:13:42
was arrested in 1979 for the repeated rape of a 13-year-old girl who was also his cousin he lived near Camp Scott and
00:13:50
was questioned at the time of the murders but ruled out as a suspect according to the OSBI Tim limy what
00:13:58
what's interesting is this quote from Sheriff Weaver pots identified mug shots of heart and had heart at the scene
00:14:06
within a matter of hours of the time of the murders that when they were committed Weaver has never explained
00:14:12
exactly what information pots gave them about about Hart many believe that Potts
00:14:19
was the informant whose information led to Hart's arrest at the shack Ricky green was imprisoned in New
00:14:27
Mexico for burglary but escaped and was found in Oklahoma green confessed to the
00:14:32
killings telling OSBI agent Jack Le that he and two other men were high on drugs
00:14:38
when they committed the crimes green was ruled out as a suspect because he failed
00:14:43
five polygraph tests so let's talk about these last two individuals so John Clayton pots who was the cousin of Jean
00:14:50
Hart right he's 21 at the time of the murders he's arrested in 79 for raping a young girl so he has similar Tendencies
00:15:00
to what we would expect from our suspect the interesting thing about him is how does he get on this list well one we
00:15:09
know that he was involved in the investigation early on because we have that interesting quote from Sheriff
00:15:15
Weaver saying pots identified mug shots of heart and could place heart within the scene of the crime within a matter
00:15:23
of hours right uh from the time of the murders around the time of the murders that they were committed
00:15:29
what's what's interesting about John Clayton pots is we know he's an associate of Jee Hart he's his cousin
00:15:37
and he claims to have seen Jean Hart within hours of the murders so he can be a suspect on this list for
00:15:47
several reasons one he puts himself within the area around the time of the murders and two he puts himself
00:15:57
with Jean Hart possibly with genan Hart shortly after the murders so and a lot of people would think it's more likely
00:16:04
that there was two perpetrators in this crime yeah so you have John Clayton Potts who who fits into a unique
00:16:10
category as a suspect either he did it himself or he could be an accomplice of Gan Harts and you would think though we
00:16:18
got this fingerprint on the flashlight doesn't match him cuz we know it doesn't match har mhm and regarding this Ricky
00:16:27
green the guy that was in prison in New Mexico for burglary uhhuh the guy that he he confessed to the killings mean
00:16:33
green he he tells the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations that he committed the crimes he and two other
00:16:39
men committed the crimes and we say that he was ruled out as a suspect simply because he failed five polygraph test I
00:16:47
have to believe that there's more going on with this I don't feel like they would rule this guy out immediately we
00:16:53
do know that OSBI publicly stated they thought that Hart was their guy so you and I know from our long time of doing
00:17:01
this that sometimes they don't really they're not fully investigating these things after they think that their guy's
00:17:07
already been you know by this point he's dead hard dead and also the tunnel vision for one and also just I mean we
00:17:15
see it all the time with whether it's an author or just an armchair detective that creates a theory and it rules out
00:17:25
any other possibilities no matter what is presented Ed to him no matter what evidence is presented to him but I think
00:17:31
there's more going on here with the you you fail five polygraph tests and you're
00:17:36
probably changing the story so much that maybe law enforcement doesn't even know
00:17:41
what to believe I agree with that and that's what I think we have here but that's a sticky situation too because
00:17:46
within the bits of his confession he states that he was high on drugs when they committed the murders so yeah but
00:17:53
we've seen that too I mean uh what's what's he going to remember or how what will be his memories that he has of
00:17:59
those events well we've also had people that have confessed to crimes and um had
00:18:04
other people involved saying hey this person helped me with the crime while they're on drugs and I think believed it
00:18:11
for so long um but it could be as simple as you know they were high on drugs and saw a
00:18:18
news report about this and you have to wonder too when this confession was delivered to OSBI because what available
00:18:28
evence did they have at the time of this confession because if they still have a
00:18:32
lot of evidence on hand regardless of if you believe his story or his story doesn't add up you know you could chalk
00:18:39
that up to him being high on drugs you can test this evidence you can look at the evidence and you can compare it to
00:18:44
him and the other two people that individuals that he named as accompli right and maybe you're able to clear
00:18:53
those other two at the very least it's that's a curious story right there I would like to to know more about this
00:18:59
Ricky green confession and I hope that there was more to rule him out than just the failed polygraph test now here's
00:19:07
some other angles here Captain so there's one theory that the counselors or some of the counselors in some way or
00:19:15
form were involved in this so a few pieces of information LED people to speculate that someone at Camp Scott
00:19:23
pulled off an inside job one was the confusion early on about whether the three victims were actually raped or
00:19:30
just sexually assaulted the da refused to say that the girls were raped and we now know that there were differing
00:19:37
conclusions about the presence of Sean or sperm right which led people to suspect that maybe a woman could have
00:19:45
been involved also we have the small shoe print as well yes the tennis shoe print that was found is smaller in size
00:19:52
more like a female the camp dog this is this is an interesting tidbit here okay no one reported there was a camp dog
00:20:02
okay that that lived there that occupied the camp I I had that somewhere but I don't have it with me today of course
00:20:08
not such a disappointment well the camp dog no one reported hearing the camp dog
00:20:13
bark that night we have all these other reports of strange noises and going on in the in the woods right but nobody
00:20:20
reporting this dog alerting them to anyone being nearby so maybe was this dog was she familiar with the
00:20:29
perpetrator mhm and yeah but even if you're even if a dog's familiar with you chances are if you're in the woods in
00:20:37
the dark you're still going to get the the dog to start barking we also have the fact that it's very likely that the
00:20:44
killer had some might have been intimately familiar with the camp itself mhm and the one tent out of all the
00:20:53
tents that were there the one tent that the killer or Killers chose was the the only tent that had only three
00:21:01
occupants also we have a towel used in the counselor's tent to wipe their feet on that rainy night that had been
00:21:07
hanging on the end of Carla's bed at bedtime was found by investigators on the 13th with blood on it it appeared to
00:21:15
have been used to wipe some some blood up at some point right the 2007 DNA testing showed that the pillowcase
00:21:23
sample was likely from a woman but it didn't rule out this is the problem with this it didn't rule out that it had
00:21:31
belonged or came from one of the victims themselves right then we have the story
00:21:37
of the minister in 1990 Tulsa World ran a very detailed article containing the following information an Oklahoma
00:21:46
minister Reverend Gerald Manley claimed he can name two of four men he says participated in the Girl Scout murders
00:21:54
13 years earlier tedl Turner a for former private investigator who assisted officials in investigating the slangs
00:22:02
believed Manley pushed for a grand jury to be convened to examine Manley's claims lerer said Manley claimed to have
00:22:10
been in the tent the night of the murders along with some young men he didn't know but he met when Manley was
00:22:17
driving and ran out of gas these young men drove up to help him Manley claimed one of the men led him to a tent in the
00:22:25
Girl Scout camp inside the tent Manley claimed he saw one of the Dead girls lying on the floor and two zipped up
00:22:33
sleeping bags that appeared to contain bodies according to the OSBI spokesman when the story was brought to the OSBI
00:22:41
agents were assigned in laboratory tests were performed on a plastic glove that mainly got from one of the men he
00:22:48
accused the glove had what appeared to be blood on it the OSBI submitted a report to the DA but as far as OSBI was
00:22:57
concerned concerned there was nothing to Warrant further investigation the man who headed the investigation for the
00:23:04
OSBI in 1977 Ted limy said he remembered when Manley brought the story forward years ago and said there was nothing to
00:23:12
substantiate it he did also say that the OSBI never denied the fact that more than one person could have been involved
00:23:21
Harold Barry who was the first Trooper on the scene at Camp Scott and who went on to become Mae County Sheriff at one
00:23:28
point said he met lerer and Manley at a restaurant in 1990 and Barry asked Manley to draw a diagram of the camp
00:23:36
layout in the victim's tent yeah he couldn't draw a layout of the camp he couldn't draw a layout of their
00:23:44
tent and then Barry said that's when he leaned across the table and asked the man what will you do if I arrest you
00:23:52
right here for being accessory to the homicides of the Girl Scouts Barry said the man replied
00:23:58
well maybe I just dreamed I was there so strange that it seems like there's so many people that want to take credit for
00:24:05
this or point the finger at somebody and we've seen this at other times too we're
00:24:10
talking about it's always the popular cases in the community yeah most likely the most infamous case in Oklahoma
00:24:19
history you know as far as you know 1970s goes and so we have all these people coming forward that have some
00:24:26
involvement either they did it or they know who did yeah this story comes from claims online okay so there's a camp
00:24:35
called Camp Garland this was a boy scout camp and it was located about a quar mile away through the dense woods from
00:24:43
Camp Scott right now much has been made of a story circulating online that claims that a scout at Camp Garland
00:24:49
witnessed three Boy Scouts returned to camp in the middle of the night all bloody and they're claiming they killed
00:24:56
some girls yeah nothing has ever come of this story personally I think investigators would likely have been
00:25:04
able to find some evidence left by a bunch of young teenage boys right who were well who are unlikely to have
00:25:11
navigated their way through the pitch black forest area between the camps in the middle of the night to assault
00:25:17
molest and kill three young girls yeah but you got Boy Scout camp you have Girl Scout camp it makes like a great urban
00:25:24
legend story it does but they po out of let's say say this let's go through this
00:25:29
a bit they pop out of the woods and they tell this individual we just killed some
00:25:35
girls how if that's true this was 1977 since then how many other people would they have told along the way one and
00:25:44
then two what about all that stuff that was found in those caves that were you can trace back to the murder scene
00:25:52
possible planted evidence right and for you to believe this Theory you have to believe all of that evidence was planted
00:25:59
right yeah but but also maybe that uh flashlight was not Hart's flashlight maybe that was somebody else's
00:26:09
flashlight one of the Boy Scouts and we don't know who these Boy Scouts are quote unquote so maybe maybe a couple of
00:26:17
them committed suicide we don't know mhm but it it does make a uh good urban legend
00:26:26
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this when you Angie [Music] that all right we're back cheers MIM cheers to you Captain well all these
00:28:46
theories and all these other suspects that we just discussed what that tells me is even though this case is old it's
00:28:53
unsolved and let's go ahead and label it cold it's a cold case right it tells me
00:28:58
that the people the public they've not forgotten no they've not given up that there is somebody out there responsible
00:29:05
for this and it could be Jean Hart who we already discussed right now one thing that we did talk about too was that it
00:29:14
seems on the outside looking in that OSBI and other agencies close to the case they've said some public statements
00:29:22
and done some things that cause you or cause one to believe that maybe the case is closed in their mind and they weren't
00:29:30
or were not actively working the case in the years to come however there were other agencies that were doing some work
00:29:38
on this case yeah we see this time and time again though where somebody says hey look we we we think we know who is
00:29:46
responsible we tried them and it didn't work out in our favor but we think we know who's responsible and the reason
00:29:52
that we know that other agencies and other people still cared about this case and again I want to be clear I'm not
00:29:57
completely saying that OSBI didn't care and quit caring I'm not saying that local agencies quit caring and quit
00:30:04
working the case I'm just saying there are things that were statements made publicly that could lead one to believe
00:30:10
that but over the years what we have seen is several groups and organizations and agencies who kept running tests on
00:30:17
the evidence that was found at the murder scene sometimes they're testing this against possible suspects so we do
00:30:24
know that people out there do care agencies do care and they continue to work the case yeah because this family
00:30:30
needs some kind of conclusion there's been many of these tests conducted over the years and I won't go through all of
00:30:37
them because it's it's some pretty heavy lifting because they kept testing and testing and testing the stuff but I do
00:30:44
want to talk about and site some uh some of these tests so there were tests run in 1989 this showed that three of the
00:30:53
five DNA traits found in the samples taken from the dead girls matched that to heart right authorities emphasized
00:31:01
that only 1 in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples of fluids to this extent Hart
00:31:10
did but because only three of the five aspects matched the results were officially deemed
00:31:16
inconclusive Jack Graves then Mae County district attorney said if that test result had been available back then he
00:31:25
would have used it at the trial yeah he said what it comes down to is this if there were
00:31:32
7,700 North American Indians at the Girl Scout camp that night on the night that
00:31:37
the girls were murdered only one would have matched the gene characteristics in the evidence left there and again Jean
00:31:45
Leroy Hart matches this right that's pretty damning evidence that's what he says he says the chances of that are
00:31:52
pretty small no that that's what he said yeah in other words the best statistical
00:31:57
chance that the state could cite that Jee Hart was the killer was 1 in 7,700 in 2007 the OSBI received a
00:32:07
Federal grant to have DNA evidence in unsolved cases examined by private Laboratories using DNA testing not
00:32:15
available at OSBI in May of 2007 the lab issued a report that no DNA results were
00:32:23
obtained from this evidence in this case most likely what that leads us to believe is that these samples since have
00:32:32
deteriorated and we've lost the ability to test yeah to test them so where that leaves us Captain is an unsolved case
00:32:41
where we do have a lot of circumstantial evidence and I would argue a lot of physical evidence that does link what
00:32:49
can only be described as the prime suspect heart Jee Hart mhm and it's very difficult too because again you want to
00:32:57
get some kind of answers for the victim's families so that maybe they could have I again we've talked about this
00:33:07
before people say well maybe they get closure well I don't know if they ever get closure but maybe they get some
00:33:13
answers in this case it's really it's so blurry because I think the evidence points to heart I don't know if that
00:33:22
points to Heart being acting alone or with somebody but it definitely points to him but again if you're on the jury
00:33:31
and you know that he's going to get 300 plus years in prison anyways it's hard to rule in his favor
00:33:39
or or against him it seems to me and again there are differing reports of this so it's it's hard to say
00:33:48
100% what actually happened that night and who committed these murders yeah the evidence leans and to and points toward
00:33:57
the fact that there may have only been one killer as almost impossible as that may seem the DNA evidence would suggest
00:34:06
that there was only one rapist right so if we had to pick just one guy one guy acting alone the the problem with Jean
00:34:13
Hart is several things you can't rule him out using DNA you just can't he's he's the one in
00:34:21
7,700 people that matches what evidence was found there right and those other statements about him being a secretor
00:34:28
and being a typo blood and having deformed sperm that the numbers back then and I can't I can't back up the
00:34:36
math on it right but their statements were it was 0.002% of the American population that's a very small number
00:34:45
and on top of that we know that he was close to the area he was active in burglarizing the area right he also had
00:34:54
his mother's home you know half a mile or so from from the crime scene yeah and he's his childhood home was he's on the
00:35:02
run from the police in the first place my other thing too is I really question you know the the problem with heart for
00:35:10
me is really the fingerprints no fingerprints you break into a house you steal a flashlight you're wearing gloves
00:35:17
at the time you just always wear those gloves anytime you're touching this stuff it's not that hard to think that
00:35:23
there wouldn't be fingerprints if he's wearing gloves well and he's somebody that I would categorize as a career
00:35:30
criminal you know at a very young age he he raped those women and let's who who cares man if anybody wants
00:35:37
to argue this with us here in the garage what what we can see by that first offense it was a terribly violent
00:35:45
offense right he raped these two women he abducted them raped them and left them left them for dead the way that he
00:35:51
tied them up the way that he kind of he almost concealed their bodies in a way it would have been two rape charges and
00:35:58
two murder charges and he plad guilty mhm so he wasn't claiming he was innocent yeah and there are people out
00:36:06
there Back in 77 that thought hey this guy got railroaded the first time right how can you get railroaded when you
00:36:11
plead guilty right and maybe you know maybe Hart would tell you well they they were stacking the case against me this
00:36:20
that and the other thing these women were tied up and they were Bound in a manner that they would cause their own
00:36:25
deaths if they came to and struggled to free themselves right he intended for them never to be found he intended them
00:36:32
to me never be found alive yeah cuz he's real busy yeah and when he went to prison for that mhm I think that like
00:36:41
these other career criminals do whether it be whether your crime be theft or you
00:36:48
know holdups or rape or murder right all of these individuals they tend to learn from
00:36:56
their past mistakes and I think what you pointed out is spoton I think it's as simple as he was using gloves during the
00:37:05
perpetration of burglarizing homes yeah and therefore regardless of his state of
00:37:11
mind or regardless of his condition he was using gloves at the time of the murders and he likely all those items
00:37:19
that he brought with him to the scene show to me that he probably carried him under gloved hands yeah the thing too is
00:37:27
we saw things in his first rapes of those women of the pregnant women we saw that he premeditated that attack he
00:37:37
brought with him to the scene things that would help him bind these women up he laid out newspapers in the trunk of
00:37:45
his car so that if there was any evidence that would be left behind probably to sop up blood if it if need
00:37:52
be to catch the blood that he could later throw those newspapers away and he wasn't going to take any chance of
00:37:58
leaving any victim alive mhm there's going to be no possibility of that and I think what we see here with the Girl
00:38:06
Scout murders is the same thing I see a perpetrator or perpetrators that brought
00:38:11
to the scene with them instruments that would help them commit this crime right binding I think the intent was not to go
00:38:19
there that night and steal things from the camp I think the intent was to show up there and do something very bad and
00:38:27
very horrible yeah no I agree the the tricky thing to me though is there's so many things that are done to tents and
00:38:34
there's so many people that oh we think we saw a guy come into our tent with our
00:38:39
tent flaps were messed with this stuff was stolen you have three victims it almost seems either again like a shape
00:38:48
shifter I'm not saying he he actually can shape Shi but somebody that is very familiar with the tent they're in a
00:38:54
semicircle mhm it wouldn't be that hard to cause all that commotion but with the
00:38:58
three victims you know it makes me believe that possibly there was somebody else with him yeah the the thing though
00:39:05
he is very experienced Outdoors he knew the area better than most arguably better than anyone anybody at that
00:39:16
campsite yeah I mean it it by all accounts it seems like he was mostly living off the land in the area at the
00:39:24
time I think this guy would have had the stealth ability of creeping up on those
00:39:29
campers to those different tents and he would make a lot less noise than most of
00:39:33
us would do the other thing too is regarding some of the items that I believe he brought with him that night
00:39:42
the flashlight so it's often discussed and this is rightfully so but many people point out that the newspaper
00:39:49
inside the flashlight was most likely to keep the battery forced up into position
00:39:56
so would provide Power for the light itself yeah I agree with that 100% I think that that was one of the reasons
00:40:04
for the newspaper inside the flashlight but I also believe that it was jammed up
00:40:10
in there so that the battery wouldn't rattle around in the flashlight so that the person could sneak around making
00:40:17
less noise yeah makes sense because you alter the front lens so it's a smaller flash mhm um and then you alter the
00:40:25
battery so it doesn't rattle that makes a lot of sense yeah and you've used those size of flashlights before they
00:40:30
can they can make little rattling noises I I personally don't use them that size
00:40:36
I like to use the big mag ones M that you could beat somebody over the head with like a baseball bat but if somebody
00:40:43
was let's say clever enough to alter the lens of the light to mute the light and
00:40:50
only have that little bit showing through they're coming up with other ideas as well and I don't know man the
00:40:58
the the troubling thing is I agree with you some of the items that were found some of the evidence that was found that
00:41:05
does link heart to the murders it's sketchy if it was planted or not they had it out for heart period
00:41:15
And I have a hard time believing though that all of the evidence itself was it's
00:41:20
it's okay remember how they said oh it was like we're reliving the OJ trial M but it's the same thing it's like just
00:41:29
be if they planted evidence right I I can I can back up and say maybe they did plant some evidence maybe they didn't
00:41:36
like OJ and they planted some evidence and they want to get a hard conviction okay maybe they planted some evidence
00:41:41
but they didn't PL it all right and there's a possibility that you can be guilty and the police did plant evidence
00:41:49
we live in a world that that's possible I think if Hart did it he took the murder weapon with him could have
00:41:56
been the flashlight may not have been I don't think that that uh you know we have that
00:42:01
crowbar or that tool that was missing from the nearby Farm uhhuh I don't know 100% that it came from the farm or that
00:42:08
it was used in the murders I kind of feel like that that whoever if all those items found in the
00:42:15
caves if they weren't planted I think that the killer took enough of the stuff with them or with him that he wasn't
00:42:23
just leaving random things behind I tell you what they didn't plant that pile of
00:42:28
human poo poo and maybe those uh PBR bottles the the beer bottles that was just him sipping beer while he lieing
00:42:37
wait while he waited for the sun to go down watching the campers seeing who goes into What tent seeing where they
00:42:43
are proximity to the counselors right the tricky thing too is I think Hart had a hell of a defense team you know we the
00:42:51
community that believed he was innocent pulled together raised a bunch of money and hired what I think was a good
00:42:57
defense team they pulled out tactics similar to what we saw with the Casey Anthony case with the OJ Simpson case
00:43:05
where we have a defense team that basically States look look at all these other possible theories and suspects
00:43:12
that you can't rule out jury they even had people testify saying yeah I was questioned about this five times right
00:43:19
but there's no real evidence and they even presented other possible suspects you can't rule them out jury oh yeah
00:43:28
and the possibility of they planted evidence on this as well and they can't say 100% that the DNA evidence left
00:43:38
matches heart and so I think the situation there is difficult for the jury I think that it was a clever chess
00:43:45
move by the defense team to conveniently let it slip out that this guy is already
00:43:50
serving 300 years in prison and I know we have the statements by some of the jury that say look we didn't feel like
00:43:58
the state put up enough evidence against this guy I think what it boils down to is if you're sitting there in that chair
00:44:05
questioning the guilt or innocence of this dude right it's easier for you to go you know what he's innocent but he's
00:44:12
not going to walk free anyway he's going to spend the rest of his days in prison
00:44:17
and on top of that if you do say he's guilty and you got it wrong then then you got it wrong if if you say innocent
00:44:26
it's almost like you can't get it wrong and so I think with the what the jury was burdened with was a heavy hand was a
00:44:35
was a was a heavy task I think here in the garage we're we're not burdened with such a heavy task we don't have to say
00:44:42
Beyond A Reasonable Doubt I think for me I'm definitely burdened though I'm burdened in ways that I can't
00:44:50
discuss here yeah but I not in my contract I feel very confident in a couple of statements okay one I think
00:44:57
this is a cold case I think it may remain a Cold Case unfortunately but I also feel like that if I had to pick one
00:45:03
person heart's the guy I think Hart's the guy I will say this though uh to leave a bit of optimism out there I have
00:45:11
been in contact with people in the last few months that have said no Nick it's not a Cold Case wait for it there's
00:45:17
something that's coming in this [Music] case well let's end 2018 on a good note a high note with
00:45:33
some good recommended reading yeah check out our recommended page at true Crim garage.com we'll have this listed there
00:45:41
for you this week we are recommending Alcatraz the last survivors nine former inmates reveal secrets of the Rock and
00:45:50
the author John forsing he is a lifelong Alcatraz buff and he interview interviewed nine different inmates
00:45:57
including Whitey balger and also suspected serial killer Harve the hammer carnigan for this book where they give
00:46:05
detailed accounts of some of their crimes and their times at Alcatraz and again everything that we recommended
00:46:12
this year is on the recommended page on our website true Crim garage.com and if you go to truecrime garage.com you can
00:46:19
also click on off the Record it's our bonus show that's on Stitcher premium or download the Stitcher app for all of our
00:46:26
old episodes it's free yeah we've done over 260 episodes now so if you want to find the old and good ones go back and
00:46:35
get the stitcher wrap and we will not be recording or in the garage next week because it is Christmas so I want to
00:46:42
wish everybody a happy uh holidays safe travels happy New Year and uh we'll see you in
00:46:49
2019 and here's a New Year's resolution for us all let's be good let's be kind and don't
00:46:56
[Music] [Applause] [Music] litter you can live out your Master Chef dreams when you find a professional on Angie to
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tackle your dream kitchen remodel connect with skilled professionals to get all your home
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projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that