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okay so your mentor or I I can call Lou your one of your mentors right he he is yes and so he's brought on this I mean
00:02:08
it's one of the most high-profile cases ever right and he is going into it with the idea like you said well this should
00:02:18
be pretty simple MH but he's also going into it with the idea that they want to know the truth at some point he's
00:02:28
hit like with a brick wall right do you remember having any conversations with him about his frustration
00:02:38
and and and what he felt that he needed to do um we had many discussions and you
00:02:46
know I don't know if it was a brick wall immediately but he he definitely um came
00:02:53
across evidence that didn't support the Ramsay did it and the more he got into it the more more evidence supported the
00:03:01
Intruder Theory as as he developed it and then I think after it was it was more than a couple weeks it might have
00:03:08
been a month or two I think that's when he realized that there was a brick wall that he was being stonewalled and when
00:03:15
he would bring up information to the um uh Boulder uh police um it would be dismissed or or they would try to
00:03:26
um exclude the evidence through some some rationale for example when Lou pointed out in the cramin photos taken
00:03:35
that morning of the basement with that window standing wide open and the suitcase standing up right below it and
00:03:42
there's also what Lou thought was to be a black scuff mark on the wall so when when he's pointing to the crime scene
00:03:48
photos that Boulder police crime scene technicians had taken and he's showing the detectives that that is evidence of
00:03:56
forc Entry one of the first things the Boulder Police said is oh no no nobody could gotten in that window well Lou Lou
00:04:03
is frustrated because he's trying to explain well well that's how John B's dad got into the home when he left his
00:04:09
keys in the house and and so what Lou did is he um had himself vide taped crawling in and out of that window and
00:04:17
Lou I think at the time was I don't know he was always in good shape I think he was probably mid-60s at the time but he
00:04:24
would show that you know I I can get in and out that window here watch and he had had himself videotaped and then
00:04:29
showed that videotape to the boulder detectives and they would just ignore it and and then they would you know go on
00:04:36
you know to something else and Lua that's what was really so frustrating was you would confront them with
00:04:43
physical evidence and then they would dismiss it a good example is the this the foreign D DNA that was under the
00:04:51
little girl's fingernails on the crotch of her panties and then in 2008 it was also determined to be on below the
00:04:57
waistband of her of the long johnon that she was wearing for for pajama bottoms and so when Lou pointed out that not
00:05:04
only does that exclude the any members of the Ramsey family it gives us something to work with because it's it
00:05:12
it it's male so we can stop looking at at women being involved unless there you know is a conspiracy here or someone
00:05:20
else involved but he said we we need to find out who who's who who's the the male who left that foreign DNA um uh on
00:05:30
her clothing and on her body and so what the Boulder police would do is they would say you know that could be
00:05:36
anything you know that that might have been U you know casual contact you know DNA that was you know from trace or
00:05:43
touch DNA that was left you know for casual contact and what Lou would say was that makes no sense he said you know
00:05:51
I I don't know you're thinking but um anytime that there's unknown male DNA found on the crotch of a little
00:06:00
girl's panties that's that's not uh you know casual touch that's that's evidence
00:06:06
of of uh something that's that's really wrong but then it's the same it matches the genetic markers are the same that's
00:06:14
underneath the fingernails and when the the the genetic material this tissue that is is forcibly under her
00:06:24
fingernails that was found the autopsy that's evidence of her clawing and scratching
00:06:30
that her a salent you know try trying to um uh breathe she's fighting for her life and they just no that you know that
00:06:39
that's not what that means and LU just would would just be just beside himself she I can't understand how you can you
00:06:46
know just simply try to just dismiss this evidence because it doesn't fit with your theory that that the ramies
00:06:52
have done it did you ever meet olly gray oh yes I knew olly very well and in fact
00:06:59
when I was a sheriff he came to work for me for a few months as my comp troller know knew him very very well could you
00:07:05
tell our listeners most of our listeners will not know who he is could you tell our listeners who Ali gray was in his in
00:07:13
relation to the the Ramsay case yes Oli was a a friend of Blues as well and um there was another person that that is
00:07:22
very important here too John St Augustine and when um John ran after Le had had resigned from the bowler DA's
00:07:31
office he continued working the case for himself but uh on his own his own time his own expense but he he didn't want it
00:07:38
to look like he was working for the Ramsay so he would never take any money from the ramies and he wanted to
00:07:45
objectively investigate the case not at the direction of the Ramsay so when the Ramsay said well we really need to hire
00:07:52
some competent private investigators because bowler police obviously were not going to be able to clear this on their
00:07:59
own own and so Lou recommended olly gray and John St Augustine John had also worked for me at the sher's office and a
00:08:09
bright young investigator Olie has since passed on John is still around but um uh
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they worked the case um as private investigators for the Ramsey family for some time maybe for for a year or two
00:08:24
and I know that that and Allie did have a law enforcement background from California and um new investigations was
00:08:31
a very competent pi and I know he stayed in and John St aain stayed in touch with
00:08:38
Lou and they had frequent um discussions and I I uh and I I don't know specifically what
00:08:47
Lou would have given them or received from them but I do know Lou is very good about sharing information and
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particularly if it fit into um uh a profile or a suspect or Person of Interest that um the Ramsay's private
00:09:04
investigators were were pursuing so I know Lou was very supportive and and U hoping that olly and John would would
00:09:12
have some some some success but it's my understanding Ali gray was the only individual in all these Decades of this
00:09:21
case dragging on and on he's the only person that ever worked for both sides of the table correct he worked for
00:09:29
with Boulder for a while and then decided to go and work with the ramies and while working with the ramies
00:09:36
it's my understanding he told John Ramsay immediately look if I find anything that suggests that that you or
00:09:43
paty or Burke that somebody inside the Ramsey household did this I'm turning it into Boulder immediately is that correct
00:09:51
correct except for one exception he NE oie never worked with the Boulder Police Department or the Sheriff's Office
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direct directly he did work with um Lou and I at the El Paso County Sheriff's Office but when he was hired by the
00:10:08
ramsy he had left the DA's office he had already been retired from law enforcement agency in California when I
00:10:15
hired him to come into the sheriff's office but you're you're right not only he but John St Augustine and Lou had
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they ever come across any evidence that you know that uh a that um suggested any of the ramies were
00:10:32
involved they would have definitely turned that over that was that was the kind of people that they were they
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wouldn't sit on that even if they were uh uh employed by the ramies they would have resigned that position and then
00:10:44
turned in the information that's they were very E look OE was very ethical that way what are the the keys to this
00:10:52
investigation as far as getting it solved the evidence I know that you point to five very vital pieces of
00:11:01
evidence that support Lou Smith's Intruder Theory could you take us through those five vital pieces of
00:11:07
evidence happy to the first one is the Paracord and uh the second one is the um uh black duct tape the third one is the
00:11:17
stun gun the um and and all those those three items are still uh valid with this
00:11:23
exception that after 27 years whether or not we can find the Paracord you know that the that the bindage was was
00:11:30
removed for or the parent roll from the duct tape or the stun gun at this point in the possession of the Killer is very
00:11:37
doubtful um the fourth item of evidence that Lou always talked about that supported his Intruder theory was the um
00:11:45
high-tech bootprint and what Lou did not know and I did not know this until after
00:11:50
the the book had been published um one of the other team members that's on our spint family team Kurt pillard came
00:11:57
across a report um in a um a Boulder Police um supplemental report that got released after lose passing in 2010 and
00:12:08
it and this this lab report talked about at least one or may might have been more
00:12:15
than one Boulder police officers who were in the crime scene did admit to having high-tech boots U so um what L
00:12:23
didn't know is that bootprint very easily could have belonged to one of the First Responders one of that bre of
00:12:28
Boulder please so we we have we don't put a lot of credibility onto that bootprint but the most important piece
00:12:35
of evidence the fifth piece evidence that Lou always believed would be the the what solved this case was the
00:12:42
unknown male DNA that's on three pieces of uh her the clothing two pieces of clothing Long John's the the underwear
00:12:50
and then under her um uh fingernails U and the scrapings that that came from the autopsy and um and
00:12:59
um our team one of the things that we've been working with is the genetic markers
00:13:04
the DNA markers that Lou left um in his case report that thata supplemental reports investigative notes that were
00:13:11
passed down to his family that our team has had access to that th those three locations the the the DNA genetic
00:13:19
markers do fit now we didn't have a complete set I think I think there's at least 14 maybe 15 genetic markers now
00:13:27
but it is sufficient to to have it into the codus the combined DNA information system that the FBI maintains one other
00:13:37
uh piece of uh positive news a couple things just to leave the interview on a uh kind of on a on an upnote a hopeful
00:13:45
note that that our team um and I think the Ramsey family also finds some comfort is that um the the the DNA
00:13:55
technology has evolved so sign significantly in the last 27 years that that law enforcement agencies are
00:14:05
clearing cold cases that are 20 25 30 years old by going back to the original evidence the the original article of
00:14:13
evidence and retesting that using more modern DNA Technologies and what what what is h what has been so um uh uh
00:14:26
helpful is that what we use to uh have to look at when you when you did DNA analysis maybe you know 15 or 20 years
00:14:34
ago it was being measured in um nanograms which is a very small minute amount but today the technology is is
00:14:44
able and I'm not a DNA expert but but it it is known that the DNA can be measured
00:14:51
now in picograms which are significantly smaller um uh um amounts and so that's highly encouraging the
00:15:02
second part of that is that the databases every year keep growing exponentially whether it's law
00:15:09
enforcement databases or public um or private DNA uh databases and that's how a lot of cases that that you all know
00:15:18
about um have been solved like the Golden State killer they didn't actually have the killer DNA they were able to
00:15:25
get into the familial DNA and uh found a relative I think it was a niece who lived in another state and her DNA um
00:15:35
showed that the Killer's DNA that they shared a common ancestor and that's what we hope um and that was one of the
00:15:42
reasons to to get the book out was to encourage law enforcement agencies to continue to do that the other
00:15:49
encouraging thing just within the last few months is that the Boulder Police have released um uh statements and and
00:15:59
the boulder district attorney have um made comments that um uh that the case is being looked at the evidence is being
00:16:09
re-evaluated and um using more modern Technologies the district attorney in Boulder um the now da Michael dhy he
00:16:19
even commented in the news uh recently that the FBI are also assisting and that's very encouraging because the FBI
00:16:27
has some very right people um uh you know they they have access to some Cutting Edge Technologies and DNA and of
00:16:35
course they maintain the U cotus the the the national DNA database so what we were really hopeful in in in going into
00:16:45
this holiday season is that there's never been a better time for this case the John Ben Ramsey case to be solved
00:16:53
then now that I think um the family Fields this too the Smith family team that we hope the Boulder Police and the
00:17:00
law enforcement agencies that around them now um are doing everything that they can to take an objective look at
00:17:06
the the physical evidence using modern Technologies for DNA analysis and hopefully that will identify the person
00:17:14
responsible for the crime which in some people's mind will be the only way for the Ramsey family ever to be removed
00:17:22
from that umbrella of Suspicion yeah and if it gets solved it grants lose d wish
00:17:29
because I I don't think people understand how and and I think when you were if you
00:17:36
use the word obsessed that sometimes people use that as a bad thing he's on his deathbed yeah and his family wants
00:17:44
to talk about good times and there's video footage that I've seen where he's like no no you guys need to listen to me
00:17:53
and he's going Page by Page in his in his case files to explain to him what each page means and uh he set up that
00:18:02
list of people that I know that they've been uh going through and and trying to get DNA and testing through that list so
00:18:11
as much as you want Justice for this little girl and and her family and for that Community uh I really believe it U
00:18:20
if there ever is um an arrest that Lou is is is uh directly responsible for that
00:18:29
you're you're so right because I would never written the book had it not been for for Lou and not only do we want
00:18:36
Justice for John Benet and of course on a personal note I'd I'd really like to see Lou um is is the to be proven right
00:18:46
and and the family being the Ramsay family being able to enjoy regular Christmas and not have to worry about
00:18:54
this if if that's possible U our Smith family team we talk about this all the time too we meet probably once a month
00:19:01
or or every five or six weeks we've got uh our list from Lou you know of our top
00:19:06
20 people that we continue to to work on and what we would love to do as a team is to be able to close all of our
00:19:14
investigation down too and and just live a normal life like like everybody else this has taken a lot of time and energy
00:19:22
and and we had all made such a commitment to Lou that we just can't back away from that
00:19:29
um that was it was a really emotional time for all of us and for Lou when he was diagnosed with cancer when it
00:19:37
returned and and admitted to hospital or hospice uh he was able to go home for for a couple of weeks and he had a
00:19:44
visiting nurse and I know that's when he put a lot more of the case in organized
00:19:48
it a little bit better for us because he knew he wasn't going to get around to many of those those leads but his last
00:19:55
several weeks in hospice as he continued every time I would would go see him every couple of days you know he was
00:20:01
slipping a little further and a little further and um the last three days when I before he passed he was pretty much in
00:20:10
a coma we weren't able to have any communication two way I'd sit and talk to him and hold his hands but when uh
00:20:17
when he was able to talk yeah we' talk about the good times and laugh about things and are friends and joke and and
00:20:25
uh I remember uh he said you know hey one of the good things about hospice is they let you eat or drink you know
00:20:29
anything you want even though we didn't have much of an appetite at the end but they' say yeah I want ice cream and it's
00:20:34
you know the middle the morning or whatever or beer I know I walked in one time and I don't know if the nurses knew
00:20:41
this but he had a six-pack of beer that one of the detectives had brought in so we enjoyed another beer together last
00:20:46
beer but uh the conversations always would come around and say now don't forget bootman and and saying don't
00:20:54
forget so and so and remember to look at this and don't forget about the evidence
00:20:59
and and those were our last conversations it was it was it was foremost on his mind and and you're
00:21:06
you're right Nick I don't think obsessed is the right word I think it was just driven or dedicated I I think uh you
00:21:14
know people uh probably have a hard time you know um grasping that but Lou was such a unique um man and such a u a
00:21:26
consant professional and he' never believed he worked for you know the police department or you know Sergeant
00:21:33
so and so or Captain so and so he always he always said I work for the victim and
00:21:37
I think that was was really his uh his take on the Ramsay case he didn't work for John or paty or any of the Ramsey
00:21:45
family he worked for for John Benet that was that was who he he worked for and Lou one of his dying wishes was that
00:21:55
this case would finally be solved and we also have go back in time paty Ramsay on her deathbed asking Lou
00:22:06
to find out who did this yes that was a conversation that Lou and that Lou shared with me um when pany was on her
00:22:14
deathbed in hospice Lou flew down to Atlanta to see her one last time and um part of that you know he told me later
00:22:26
was to see if she wanted to give it dying confession not that he ever thought she'd ever confess to that but
00:22:31
he wanted to make sure he closed that door and so she didn't give dying confession she gave the opposite she
00:22:39
gave him the charge you know to to to continue pursuing the this killer don't don't don't give up and and that that
00:22:50
really did motivate Lou not that he needed additional motivation but I I think u i I know that that was a a emotional
00:23:00
trip when he he went to visit her that last time and um when Lou was in hospice John Ramsey came and visited Lou and um
00:23:12
that was um John Ramsey told me he said that he said I tried to go in to give Lou encouragement and cheer him up but
00:23:20
he said it turned out to be the other way around um yeah Lou was quite a quite a
00:23:26
guy tell everybody about the jbr Smith family team I know you've talked about it just a little bit but really tell us
00:23:34
what that is what is the objective what is the strategy that you're employing to
00:23:38
try to reach those goals great question and thanks for for bringing that in Nick
00:23:43
it um when Lou passed away in 2010 he had all of his uh investigative notes he had put together a spread sheet
00:23:53
883 um um entries on this spreadsheet 53 columns uh he had a a PowerPoint presentation that grown to 632 slides
00:24:04
and he showed me this as it's evolving and he had all of his investigative notes and crime scene photos and autopsy
00:24:12
photos and autopsy reports and and he had everything so organized that when you'd walk into his home he said hey I
00:24:17
want I want to show you this and so we were very familiar with what he had put together and then when he passed away
00:24:24
all of his his his wife Barb had already pass pass away from cancer a few years before so all of Lou's investigative
00:24:32
notes and his computer and his case File all was part of his estate that got passed down to his four children and
00:24:39
within about a month of his uh passing um uh his middle daughter Cindy called me and she said hey John he she said you
00:24:48
know hey we've got all the dad's you know investigative notes and his spreadsheet and and everything and he
00:24:53
said you know we're we're going to assemble a team um and do what Dad said um and and continue working this case
00:25:01
because we don't believe Boulder will ever solve this on their own and and Lou left us with all of this information to
00:25:07
work with will you come and be a part of the team and before I could answer yes or no because I was I'd retired from the
00:25:13
Sheriff's Office and I was working for locki Martin and doing a lot of travel and and but before I could say yes or no
00:25:20
she said and Dave Spencer's already agreed to be a part of it because she she knew how close Dave and I were to to
00:25:26
to one another as well as to and so when she told me Dave Spencer was on board already I said okay I I'm in because I
00:25:34
knew how organized Dave was and what a competent detective he was as well as a private investigator when he retired
00:25:42
from the PD so um so since 2010 the Smith family jbr John Ben Ramsey jbr team we've been meeting um at Le once a
00:25:54
month or maybe every six weeks probably an average of 10 10 times a year um and what we do is we go through our top 20
00:26:03
list we've gone out um on more than a dozen cases of Persons of Interest left from Lou where we'll um try to obtain
00:26:13
that person's DNA and um submit it to the lab we we pay for the DNA analysis U on our own um after a few years the
00:26:24
first few years we just had to pass the Hat because we didn't have any money and
00:26:28
and um U but after a few years Cindy did put together a GoFundMe um uh account and um we had budgeted at that time for
00:26:38
our top 20 we were averaging about $5,000 per test and that included the travel to fly out to um hotel if we had
00:26:49
to stay somewhere and then in the lab analysis that was a good average so we thought to get our top 20 we would need
00:26:57
100,00 ,000 so that was our um GoFundMe account Target last I looked I think we were up to like 62 or
00:27:06
63,000 and um uh that might be one thing we could do Nick and Captain is is if I
00:27:12
send you the link maybe you can you know make that available you know to your listeners um there there's three
00:27:18
different accounts only one of them is connected to our our team and so I want to make sure everybody gets the the
00:27:25
right the right one but um we've had some very generous uh donations and you can look on there and you can see you
00:27:32
know who's donated and how much the Ramsay family um Jeff Ramsey's contributed several times that's John's
00:27:39
brother one of the neat things we had was um a lady who had read my book that I'd never met she called me and she said
00:27:48
um John I'm in really impressed with your book and we really want to see your Smith Family Team succeed and she said
00:27:55
I'm prepared today to make a 10,000 ,000 donation and I sent her the link you know and you you kind of think well you
00:28:02
know is this a scam you know are they going to want my you know account number or whatever but she was true to her word
00:28:08
within hours we had a $10,000 uh donation from an anonymous source and that that's helped a lot and uh I think
00:28:17
we have we have several thousand dollars in there now but I know the Ramsey family have said you know hey if if you
00:28:23
guys start running low you you let us know and we'll contribute and sometimes we've we've gone out and actually
00:28:30
approached somebody who was on the the list and a lot of these names are known you know they've been in other people's
00:28:35
books and and so we'll go up to to somebody and contact them and say Hey you know you were brought up as a
00:28:41
potential suspect you know back in 97 or 98 and and and if they were falsely accused would say you know we can give
00:28:49
you an opportunity to clear yourself if you want and and we'll pay for it and um
00:28:54
so sometimes we've had a couple of Persons of Interest willingly give us a a DNA it's usually
00:29:02
just a an oral swab on a qtip that we submit to the lab and um a couple of times you know they kind of hesitated
00:29:10
and we said well if we gave you $300 or $500 would that would that um um you know work better for you so we we have
00:29:19
paid for a few DNA samples and when we when we when we get a sample off of discarded DNA or whatever we we hold her
00:29:27
breath you know hoping that this is the one and um it takes a painful amount of time to get the analysis back and so
00:29:36
we've had many disappointments um that that that we sent in somebody that could be a strong person that was on loose
00:29:45
list and it comes back negative but I keep hearing my uh former partner's voice in my ear saying okay now we know
00:29:52
who didn't do it let's let's move on to the next one next man up [Music] if you're a parent and you want to help
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your 50% off at rosettastone.com garaget [Music] toay so you have people that you've
00:33:53
eliminated you have a top 20 Persons of Interest list and these are lists that you at one time shared with Boulder PD
00:34:02
correct absolutely yeah we've shared that list in confidence then we when we've eliminated somebody on our top 20
00:34:10
we go back to lose spreadsheet and we take the next most likely person and bump them up into the top 20 uh Lou left
00:34:17
it uh his 883 entry SP spreadsheet in four tiers Tier 1 2 3 4 tier one is who we thought needed the the most most look
00:34:27
and he had he had eliminated U probably over 100 people well maybe not that many
00:34:32
anyway he had eliminated a number of people before he passed on and then our team is eliminated and and rep
00:34:40
prioritized I think last count was like 23 other other names some of them you know was a name that was brought up as a
00:34:49
potential suspect and then once you look at them you can say well can't be this guy because you know he died in you know
00:34:56
95 or this guy was in prison since 93 or or whatever so so you can eliminate some
00:35:02
without doing the DNA but the ones that remain we we look at oh who was most likely being Boulder was there some
00:35:09
motive um you know uh we also because of Lou had access to the boulder um uh DNA
00:35:18
um lab reports that showed you know who had been eliminated previously so we were able to you know exclude some of
00:35:27
those but when we when we gave our top 20 to Boulder Police we've done this a couple of times and the boulder da who
00:35:35
said you know if there's somebody on this list that you've already eliminated could you please let us know that way
00:35:42
we're not bothering them or we're not you know wasting our time and money and our first meeting with the da is he
00:35:49
agreed to do that and then the second meeting six months later um they refused to to do that but we still keep s
00:35:56
sending them the the names that we've eliminated we let them know who we're we're looking at but um yeah so far um
00:36:06
as Commander tro told me going in that you know this is a one-way Street we're not sharing any information with you Tom
00:36:13
tro was was the C commander of the um homicide unit for for years he'd been on the original crime scene and uh one time
00:36:22
was a friend of mine but um Tom Tom was a um disciplined along with five other Boulder detectives in Jan in December of
00:36:32
last year for not thoroughly investigating their cases and he was removed as the captain of detectives and
00:36:40
put into Patrol on midnights and then these other detectives either left or were um disciplined for not uh
00:36:48
thoroughly investigating their cases the Boulder Police public information officer put out a statement that had
00:36:55
nothing to do with a John B Ramsey case but I voice maintained it had everything
00:36:59
to do with a jumy Ramsey case because unfortunately that was the culture that L bumped up to in 96 and 97 was they
00:37:08
just were not interested or didn't know how or didn't have the right supervision
00:37:13
you know to thoroughly investigate their their cases so there is a new captain um
00:37:19
Commander there's um new detectives there's new leadership there's a different police chief and that was
00:37:25
their back this happen so we're uh our team our Smith family team we're continuing to to meet and pursue our top
00:37:33
20 list but we're also wishing Boulder Police the FBI whoever is involved in this case coloral Bure investigation uh
00:37:41
much success because we we just love to see the case solv for the family and and
00:37:47
um be able to close this case once and for all I I should also mention mo one of the other motivations is like with
00:37:54
with the Heather daon Church case is the likelihood of this killer as violent as
00:38:00
a crime as this is that this being a a a oneof is is minimal you know this this is the type of a violent um pedophile
00:38:10
that you know just doesn't start off you know at that that level of violence you
00:38:14
know they they increase their ummo um M operand they they they they fine-tune that they get more and more
00:38:25
violent more and more cre native and so the likelihood that there's not victims before and and most likely after um this
00:38:35
murder is is minimal so I I think like with the heatherd Don Church case who whenever this person's identified
00:38:43
there's a strong likelihood that there'll be a pattern of um violent offenses so we we hope that it's solved
00:38:50
not just to get Justice for John Benet and prove Lou right but more importantly is to get this this violent pedophile
00:38:56
off off the street if he's still out there do you have and I know I we don't want to get too specific about names
00:39:02
here on on either one of your list but as far as your Persons of Interest go and you have a top 20 Lou had a
00:39:10
spreadsheet that had many more names on it than that are all of these persons identified like or any of them
00:39:20
referenced and not identified by name all of ours are identified by name and our top 20 there are several with lose
00:39:30
um entries when you look at the 883 you'll see a nickname or you'll see someone referred to as a landscaper for
00:39:38
example um but but or a plumber who had been in the house three months before something and uh Lou Lou was convinced
00:39:47
that the killer had access to the home before the night of the murder it just seems like knew where things were
00:39:55
located and um Lou believed that he probably even went through that that um window in the in the basement uh before
00:40:03
that night so Lou was looking um very carefully at other people who had access to the home and so there were a few
00:40:11
people on his list that didn't have a name but were referenced to in some capacity a good example most people know
00:40:20
who followed this case know um the reference to Santa Claus that person was later identified and and through DNA
00:40:29
that person was eliminated as a potential uh suspect but yes to answer your question there are some that are
00:40:37
either known as a nickname or partial name or or some some tagline do you recall if the running man is on that
00:40:44
list oh I remember something about the Running Man H I'd have to go back and look yeah the Running Man is always kind
00:40:50
of spooked me a bit and I don't know that there's much known about him other than one or two persons saying that they
00:40:56
thought they saw a tall Slender Man running uh in the area at some point that yeah I know our teams yeah it goes
00:41:05
back a few years we did spend some time on on this running man Theory but um I don't I don't know that that was ever R
00:41:13
um tracked down or identified H I'll have to look into that good thought Captain do you have any uh last
00:41:20
questions I got I got like a mill a million there's only 100, questions in this case but Mr Anderson you had a
00:41:30
correct me if I'm wrong but with the uh you know I read the book months and months ago CU it came out early this
00:41:35
year and I believe you said in the book that you have a do you have a website or
00:41:41
somewhere that people can go to view more information about the case yes yeah thank you I I should have mentioned that
00:41:49
earlier um my publisher for Lou and John Benet is wild blue press and they have um a website and what I did with
00:42:01
permission of the F of lose family is in the book The hard cover and the soft cover I have 36 slides that uh from
00:42:11
Lou's original presentation that are are printed in in the book in the middle of
00:42:15
the book kind of like photos in my audio book um obviously since you wouldn't have you know access
00:42:22
to those photos my publisher offered to host the photos that I wanted to include
00:42:29
on their website while bless.com and if you look up my book Lou and John benay instead of doing the same 36 photos that
00:42:37
are in the book we picked 20 other photos that are not in the book crime scene photos so if you if you compare
00:42:45
the two that's 56 slides of L's that he put together they're all his notes and um I think that gives people uh a really
00:42:54
good overview of the crime scene the autopsy nothing overly gory or bloody there but um there are a few autopsy
00:43:04
photos like for example the stun gun marks and um so if if anybody's interested in in looking at the slides
00:43:11
that L put together I think that the WildBlue press.com is real is is very good for that and then they've also put
00:43:19
together a couple of good um oh let's see there's been some blogs and some other things that they've done a good
00:43:25
job with and what we'll do Nick or Captain if one of you when this is finished and and you put it out if
00:43:32
you'll send me a link I'll get that added to the uh website for wild blue press uh as well another thing that was
00:43:39
really incredible with your book that is just I mean there's no shortage of books
00:43:44
about the John Benet case but this is the only book that I've seen that features the floor diagrams the layout
00:43:51
of the complete house the first floor second floor third floor it has every room of the house in the basement
00:43:59
included so I thought that was if you don't understand the crime scene there's no way to understand the case and so to
00:44:06
include stuff like that in a case that's been so convoluted over the years and in
00:44:12
a case where people are so heavily charged up about their Theory or thoughts of who did it but there's still
00:44:20
a lot of information out there that that most people just don't know so thank you
00:44:23
for including those diagrams in your book very welcome and that that's a very good observation and I can't take credit
00:44:30
for that because that's vintage L SMI he's the one who put together those four diagrams um using his computer and um
00:44:41
uh so uh I think that that shows why this book is unique is because Lou had access to the crime scene personally I
00:44:50
mean he he went there and he took those measurements to make that those diagrams
00:44:55
and to see how you know where was the evidence found where is this blue suitcase at where's this baseball at
00:45:01
baseball V bat at and I think what makes the book unique and I realized that I was in the unique position
00:45:08
to or a position of responsibility to to get those out there was because I was one of the few people that that had
00:45:15
access to lose spreadsheet and his his case File and his notes thanks to his family so yes I think that is what's
00:45:23
different from other books because a lot of the other authors you know um studied
00:45:29
you know was in the newspaper might have gotten copies of reports but Lou was actually there he he was in the crime
00:45:36
scene um I I've been to the Ramsey former Ramsey home several times but I was never inside but Lou was many many
00:45:44
times so he had an intimate understanding of the of the um crime scene inside and and out one other thing
00:45:53
that um and thank you for the nice compliments about my book it any book as you guys know is a is a team effort and
00:46:02
um one of the things that I most proud of on the book is the cover and one of the few uh requests I made of of my
00:46:10
publisher wild blue press was I had two photos that I had one of Lou and uh that
00:46:17
was the first day in the Sheriff's Office January 10th 1995 when we were both sworn in I became the sheriff he
00:46:24
became my C detective so I wanted that photo of Lou one of my favorite photos on the cover and then the photo of John
00:46:31
Benet was one of my favorite photos and I had a different photo that came out a loose case File of her in her
00:46:38
kindergarten class and um I sent them to as a mockup of the cover to her dad and
00:46:46
I said hey John these are the this is kind of what the cover is looking like and and you know I did not want a
00:46:51
glamour shot there were too many books out there with that and Lou never saw saw John Benet as a beauty queen he
00:46:58
always saw her as a little innocent little kindergartener as she as she was and so um when I sent the the other
00:47:06
mockup of the book cover to her dad um he sent me a nice little email and he said I like that photo too but he said
00:47:13
John could you use this one instead he said it was John benet's first day of kindergarten and he said it's one of my
00:47:19
favorite photos and paty took that photo right be um uh right before she put her
00:47:25
in the car and took her to her first day of kindergarten and it's a it's a neat little photo because it shows her with
00:47:31
her little backpack slung over her shoulder and she's got a little plastic Apple that has treats or something for
00:47:36
the kids I don't actually know what's in there and then her little dog jock and it's a cute little outfit that I'm sure
00:47:42
py picked out to wear for the first day of kindergarten but I think it gives you
00:47:46
a real look at two important photos two people who never met and are forever linked in history through this case is
00:47:55
there something as you guys have looked through you know it's been a team effort
00:48:02
to look through lose Case Files is there something that you feel like he got wrong what a good question well
00:48:11
certainly the high-tech boot we've had to take you know um a step back on that um yeah because I remember talking to
00:48:19
him specifically about that bootprint and he said yep he said none of the Boulder Police um uh you know have been
00:48:28
confirmed to wear high-tech boots they've been asked they didn't um let's see so I'm convinced he's he he just
00:48:36
didn't have the right information uh I can't really say he was wrong on that um let's see
00:48:44
h no I think uh yeah I can't think of of anything else I think um I think it's the opposite I think the
00:48:56
more and more our team you know have gone through the lab analysis the reports the more we realize that he was
00:49:02
spot on a good example of that was the DNA the initial reports had um under like the fingernails and I can't
00:49:11
remember the exact numbers I think there were like six genetic markers on the two
00:49:17
hands left and right initially and I think there were like nine that came off of the underwear then they were the same
00:49:24
six or or one that that were on the nine and so Lou was was convinced you know this was from the same person the 2008
00:49:33
analysis with the long johns now here's a different article of clothing and it gives us I think there was 11 or 12
00:49:43
genetic markers on that one there were more anyway but it was the same six that were in the fingernails that were on the
00:49:49
long johns the same nine that were on the underwear so it what what it's done Nick is it's kind of done the opposite
00:49:56
every time we get a little bit more physical evidence a little more cooperating evidence information it
00:50:02
really substantiates that Lou was right all along yeah and I think a lot of people that have looked into this case
00:50:09
after Lou they nitpick things like where they go just like the window I think what
00:50:18
Lou was able to prove is cuz there was a lot of speculation that that the ramies
00:50:24
would leave d unlocked or people that worked for the Rams would say not only were the doors unlocked but there would
00:50:30
be a jar and and there was it's such a big house that you know John Ramsey would come downstairs and have to start
00:50:39
shutting windows and shutting doors and locking things because the kids would just leave things
00:50:44
open but I also think he proved like well even if there was locked doors and locked Windows here's a way that the
00:50:51
Intruder could get in right and I think that's where I think people nitpick they
00:50:56
go well there's no proof that somebody went through there but it's like no he he's just pointing out that there's the
00:51:02
possibility if there was an unlocked door or a Jarred door then the Intruder could have got in that way I've always
00:51:09
argued that possibly they went through the window or possibly went through a door but I I believe that the the
00:51:17
Intruder was trying to leave through that window and I think and Lou definitely would have agreed with you and and again
00:51:27
you know having the the body found in the basement just you know within I don't know how many feet from that
00:51:33
window the scuff mark below the window um there were there were some um other things that you know LED Lou to believe
00:51:42
that that was likely the POI the point of entry but also the point of exit and what Lou knew being an experienced uh
00:51:50
police officer most burglars that commit a crime they enter um a dwelling or or business um through whatever you know a
00:52:01
door window but that's the majority of the time their point of exit as well because they're familiar with that route
00:52:08
you know that that's how they entered and so most burglaries and I can't I don't remember the statistic it's 80 87%
00:52:16
of burglaries that that enter a home exit through that same uh point of entry so I think Lou was aware of that but I
00:52:24
think because the crime the murder happened in the basement that would have been the closest exit that the suspect
00:52:32
was familiar with and then that suitcase being positioned upright L said you know
00:52:38
and he crawled in out of that window several times said it it's kind of hard to get up in the window unless you have
00:52:43
something to stand on and that's that's what he believes that was positioned like it was and when John Ramsey walked
00:52:50
down there one of the first things he said was that suitcase wasn't there you know we didn't keep the suitcases
00:52:56
upright you know underneath that window some someone's positioned that there yeah and that's another um I think point
00:53:03
of argument when when I've talked to this uh about this case with other individuals is to go well how would John
00:53:09
know that because the house was so large and like you pointed out yeah the house
00:53:13
was large but the basement was not a full basement it was a partial basement right right yeah um if I can leave with
00:53:23
with this request it if it doesn't sound too self-serving but people o often ask
00:53:30
when I do a talk or or book signing they say well how can we help the two two things that that really do help with the
00:53:37
book as you guys know the more Amazon reviews the book gets the the higher the ratings are and the whole intent is to
00:53:46
get the story out there so if someone takes the time to read the book would they please you know consider doing a um
00:53:54
a review on Amazon because that'll help get that much more exposure to the book and then the second thing if someone's
00:54:02
that's reads the book or or listens to the this program if you have the financial ability to make a donation to
00:54:10
the uh GoFundMe account we really would appreciate any it was just $10 or $50 whatever um it it's a way of U us
00:54:21
continuing our work again we're not um uh in uh in dire streets financially but the more people that contribute the more
00:54:31
we can do so if someone is in a position to make a a donation or GoFundMe account
00:54:37
none of us get paid uh the money only goes to reimburse us if we um have to travel or or go in a hotel and it's
00:54:47
mostly used for to pay for the DNA testing so we're not we're not making any money off of this but it does help
00:54:54
us with the expenses to continue our work yes of course thank you so much Mr Anderson for joining us today and
00:55:01
telling us about the great L SMI and his involvement in the ramsy case and your continued involvement and your team's
00:55:08
involvement in seeing this thing through well thank you and the captain for your
00:55:14
time today and sharing this story [Music] [Music] want to thank everybody for joining us
00:55:45
here in the garage if you have thoughts and opinions on this interview share them with us at our blog
00:55:52
at truecrime garage.com while you're there check out our recommended reading page Colonel do we have any recommended
00:56:00
reading for the beautiful listeners today yes we do Captain and of course this week we are going to be
00:56:05
recommending Lou and John Benet a legendary Lawman's quest to solve a child beauty queens Murder by John
00:56:13
Wesley Anderson Our Guest that you heard here today and yesterday in the garage make sure you pick up his book it's it's
00:56:21
a great way to review L career Mr Anderson's career and then Lou SMI working and his findings on the John
00:56:31
Benet case that's Lou and John Benet you can find that title and many other wonderful titles on our recommended Page
00:56:39
by going to our website True Crime garage.com and until next week be good be kind and don't
00:56:53
live [Music]