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[Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, thanks
00:01:42
for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always is a man with a reminder. You made it this far, now just
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keep going. Here is the captain. Don't stop. Don't ever stop. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for
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my friends. Garage grade five out of five bottle caps. And let's give some praise and thank you to our singing
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Cheryl Bolock in Champagne, Illinois. >> Next up, here's a cheers to Kim in Snowhamish, Washington.
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>> And a big tall hands in the air goes out to Robert P in Columbus, Ohio. Oh, >> io. Cheers to Caitlyn in Princeton,
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Texas. And last, but certainly not least, we have Danielle in Aldi, Virginia. Everybody, we just mentioned,
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00:03:21
that's enough of the be news. All right, everybody. Gather around, grab a chair,
00:03:25
grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. [Music] Continuing on with episode two, we find ourselves
00:03:47
at a bar. This is a Santa Cruz cop bar that is called the Jury Room. And we have the main character, Holden Ford.
00:03:56
He's talking with a retired cop or detective. His name Jim Connor. So Jim Connor was the according to the show the
00:04:06
arresting officer on the co-ed killer Edmund Kemper case. He says that Edund Kemper called from a pay phone in
00:04:16
Pueblo, Colorado and calling because there was no manhunt for him. Basically telling them what he had done and where
00:04:26
the cops could find him to locate him and apprehend him. Then we get back to the hotel because we have our boys are
00:04:34
out on the road doing their road school. We have Bill Tench and Holden Ford. They're sitting there talking. Bill is
00:04:40
smoking cigarette number seven. The TV screen in the background. Captain is talking about once again the son of Sam
00:04:49
David Burkowitz. The screen flashes Robert Hagar reporting New York City. And so I wanted to figure out if Robert
00:04:57
Hagar was a real person and if in fact was a reporter from New York City. And of course he is. He is an analyst and a
00:05:05
retired correspondent for the US television network NBC News. Hagar started his journalism career in radio
00:05:13
before moving to network news. He covered the Vietnam War and other world events before retiring from daily
00:05:19
reporting in 2004. But this is where the show and the story takes a pivotal turn. We know that this
00:05:31
is important to the true history of the FBI in the behavioral science unit. But we have Bill Tench dropping off Holden
00:05:41
Ford at the Vakavville facility. The sign out front reads medical facility, California Department of Corrections.
00:05:50
Holden goes in alone without his badge or sidearm per facility rules. And one part that the captain and I thought was
00:05:57
incredibly funny was back at the hotel when Holden Ford is gearing up to go interview this extra large, as he said,
00:06:06
uh, super king-size serial killer and Bill Tench is trying to give him a little instruction prior to going in
00:06:15
there and how to handle the interview. Holden Ford picks up his gun and puts it in his belt and Bill Tench says, "What
00:06:25
are you doing?" And Holden Ford says, "Well, I'm gonna take my gun in there with me. What could go wrong?" Bill
00:06:30
Ten's reply is, "He's going to take it from you, kill you with it, and have sex with your face." Obviously referring to
00:06:38
some of the co-ed killers crimes and the details of those crimes. When we get our
00:06:44
first glimpse of Edmund Kemper, he is at least every bit of a full head taller than the guard that delivers him to the
00:06:51
room where Holden Ford is seated. Edund Kemper tells Holton that he's been there
00:06:55
for 5 years, saying he applied to the California Highway Patrol and his mother worked to get his record expuned and
00:07:05
says, quote, "Turns out that my record didn't bother them at all. I was just too tall." which is true. And I think
00:07:14
what's interesting here is that I this is something that Evan Keer in real life picked up on as being a lie, just
00:07:21
another lie that his mother had told him. And when he's talking about his record,
00:07:27
well, he's talking about that time period after he killed his grandparents and he was released from the the mental
00:07:34
facility. He turns 21. He gets let out because he committed these crimes when he was so young and he always he had a
00:07:42
desire to become a cop or be involved in law enforcement. He wanted to become part of the California Highway Patrol
00:07:50
and his mother had told him that he he couldn't get the job because he was too tall when in fact we know he he wouldn't
00:07:58
get the job because he he had already murdered two people prior to applying for this position.
00:08:03
>> Yeah. It kind of shows you how out of touch with reality Edmund Keer is. Well,
00:08:09
I killed my grandparents, but maybe I could be a a law enforcement officer. Yeah. Here's what's weird. Because
00:08:18
if he has no reason to believe his mother that she gets the record expuned, but let's say that she does. And on the
00:08:25
show, he's saying that they had no problem with my record. It It didn't bother them at all. Well, it turns out I
00:08:32
was just too tall. And Holden Ford replies with, you know, Keer's talking about the California Highway Patrol.
00:08:40
This, I think, is to to signify what regard Edund Keer holds members of law enforcement, what how he thinks of
00:08:51
them, and how he holds them on a um higher level, to a to a higher standard. Because Holden Ford says, "Oh, two tall.
00:09:02
I never heard of that." And he he replies, "Well, they wouldn't lie to me." Like the you know, the cops
00:09:07
wouldn't lie to me. Yeah, you've murdered many people. They do go on to discuss Joseph
00:09:15
Womba, the famous author. Edmund Keer says that he got his insights from Womba. Womba was a brilliant writer who
00:09:25
sadly passed away earlier this year, 2025 at the age of 88. Womba was known for his fictional and non-fictional
00:09:33
accounts of police work in the United States. Many of his novels are set in Los Angeles and its surroundings and
00:09:40
feature Los Angeles police officers. He's actually won three Edgar awards and was named a grandmaster by the Mystery
00:09:49
Writers of America. Womba was also a Marine and a 14-year veteran of the LAPD. We talked about Womba a bit in our
00:09:58
mainline murders coverage episodes 791 and 792. That was his book Echo in the Darkness.
00:10:06
I didn't read that one, but I watched the old TV movie with the great Robert Loer. Look, there are some pretty great
00:10:13
womb books out there. The Onion Field and more recently Fire Lover are fantastic, fantastic books.
00:10:20
>> Great title. >> Yeah, but remember there was controversy with his involvement in the mainline
00:10:26
murders and he he did some things that I would say were not on the up and up and especially for somebody that is
00:10:35
former law enforcement when he was working to put that book together. Yeah, but I could see that being an issue if
00:10:42
you're in if you're in law enforcement for a long period of time. The criminals aren't playing by any set of rules, but
00:10:51
you have to. Well, so there's there's this thought in the true crime book world, okay, as far as publishers and
00:10:59
publishing houses go, where they are far more likely to publish a book that's about a a case that has been solved, has
00:11:08
been adjudicated, >> especially the further you go back in time with that. To me, I've never
00:11:13
understood that because my some of my favorite true crime books feature unsolved cases, unsolved serial murder.
00:11:20
and Womba. I didn't want to go too far into this because I again I think we touched on
00:11:26
this in in those episodes a bit, but it was later proven they had a suspect, a really good suspect
00:11:34
depending on who you talk to, but it was proven that Joseph Wobb paid under the table paid a high ranking officer to
00:11:44
make the arrest official so that he could push the book through the publishing house.
00:11:50
>> Yeah. Which not good. not always a great way to solve your case by paying the
00:11:55
officer to look in the defense of the officer. I'm sure the officer thought the main suspect was guilty. I'm sure
00:12:02
Womba thought he was guilty, but let's do our due diligence, right? Rather than just taking an envelope under the table
00:12:08
and and placing the man under arrest. I did an interview one time with a journalist and we interviewed the the
00:12:16
subject and at the end of the interview I gave him a little money because I thought, "Thank you for your time and uh
00:12:24
take your wife out to a nice dinner and I appreciate you giving us the time." And when we're leaving, the journalist
00:12:31
said to me, "You're not supposed to pay for an interview. That's not not what journalists do." And I said, "But I'm
00:12:40
not a journalist. I'm a captain." >> He was the journalist. Last time I sat down with the journalist, I uh thanked
00:12:47
him for the interview and told him I was going to take his wife out to a nice dinner.
00:12:52
>> So during this scene, Keer is talking about Francis Farmer, an actress from the 50s who got a labbotomy as as he
00:13:00
says on the show. Anyway, now Francis Farmer was a famous actress who was involuntarily committed to a psychiatric
00:13:09
institution in her home state of Washington. But there is much debate if in fact a labbotomy actually took place.
00:13:18
Now regardless if it did so or not and it doesn't I don't think that it actually did. However, Farmer recounted
00:13:27
her stay in the state asylum as quote unbearably as unbearable terror was how she described her stay there. Edmund
00:13:36
Keer says, you know, there are a lot more like me. That's that's I mean, there's so many chilling parts in this
00:13:43
series, but this is one of them that that stands out for me and one that I don't think I'll ever forget. He says it
00:13:50
so plain Jane, right? He says it so like you know there are many more like me almost like a like a a child would say
00:14:00
it and you see Holden perk up and he's talking about serial killers >> right >> and Holden perks up and he he asks well
00:14:08
how many do you think Keer says it's a guess but in North America 35 but you're never going to find them if they don't
00:14:17
want you to which is interesting too because that's Keer's experience you know, he turned himself in after he
00:14:25
killed his grandparents and then he turns himself in after the co-ed killings and then killing his mother and
00:14:30
his mother's best friend. Again, this is part of his delusion, though, because he's assuming that these killers have
00:14:37
this same ideology as him, commit the crime, and then confess to it, where, as we know, most of them are not going to
00:14:45
confess. But but I think he has a has a point in the sense of well these are probably more random and sporadic
00:14:53
because the killer is looking for a window uh opportunity. It's not as simple as I'm going to go kill somebody
00:15:02
on Monday and then on Tuesday I'm going to go kill somebody. And so because the the crimes uh the crimes happen over a
00:15:10
time period, you could have all these active killers, but they might not have committed a crime in the last couple
00:15:18
years, >> right? Which makes a lot of sense when you start comparing terms like spree
00:15:22
killer and mass murderer to that of serial killer or sequence killer. They are in fact very similar but also very
00:15:29
very different in how they operate. A spree killer is is more like a stark weather where he's out on the road and
00:15:36
he may he may do just what you said, Captain. Kill somebody on a Monday and then kill somebody on a Wednesday and
00:15:42
then the next week and he's just out getting victims as he can with quick succession.
00:15:48
>> Right. where with Keer, yeah, he's trolling and looking for hitchhikers, but they the hitchhikers are are very
00:15:58
random obviously, but he's looking for a very specific type of victim. There's other complications with why it took so
00:16:07
long to catch Edmund Kemper. In fact, him turning himself in. And what's interesting, too, is that as intelligent
00:16:15
as Keer is, this ALS This also seems to signify that he believes that there are many more like me that they
00:16:26
are very much like him, right? That you are never going to find them if they don't want you to, which we know that
00:16:32
that is actually not the fact. Most most of them do not turn themselves in. Uh most of them are identified and then
00:16:41
apprehended. Keer goes on to say, "I am not an expert. I am not an authority. I'm just a highly accomplished killer
00:16:47
who managed to evade capture until I turned myself in. He also refers to killing women as his vocation.
00:16:55
>> I wonder if his mindset would have changed if he would have actually been caught.
00:17:00
>> Yes. And to me, killing his mother and her best friend is very similar to killing his grandparents. And he turns
00:17:07
himself in after that. Had he not killed a family member after being released and
00:17:12
and committing the co-ed murders, I don't think he would ever turn himself in. >> Right.
00:17:17
>> Holden then in another scene, the next scene tells his girlfriend Debbie that
00:17:22
Keer knows more about lust murder than the entire FBI's behavior science unit. Debbie asked, "Why does he hate women?"
00:17:32
Th this seems like such a simple question, but it is so profound. It is. This is almost
00:17:39
foundational to what they're doing and to the understanding of these very evil men that kill a lot of women. So, I love
00:17:48
these exchanges with Debbie as she is asking very simple questions that are not so powerful that well simple
00:17:56
questions that are so very powerful and exactly what the FBI needs to be asking. Now, back at
00:18:04
Vakavville, Keer explains to Holden how [ __ ] a person in their throat is difficult
00:18:11
because of all the muscles in the neck. Ed's mother, he worked at the campus for
00:18:18
the University of Santa Cruz. >> Yeah, she was a counselor. Keer explains how he was never so he's talking about
00:18:27
the women that he desired were women were were similar to most of the women that that lived on campus or attended
00:18:34
the university. But he explains that he was never going to be with any of those women because according to his mom, he
00:18:44
was a [ __ ] a disappointment, a loser. >> Yeah. It seemed like she was so upset
00:18:48
with Ed's father and he might have been a visual representation of that. So therefore, she ends up taking out all
00:18:59
this anger and maybe this hatred just towards men in general on her son. >> And look, it clearly he exhibited some
00:19:07
very strange and bizarre borderline psychotic behavior growing up, but well before he killed his grandparents.
00:19:16
So whatever was driving this woman, it it's probably a combination of what you said and his in his behavior, right,
00:19:24
>> as well. But it's it's like every it seems at least in his mind, every chance
00:19:29
she got to belittle him, she did. Like even going out of the her way of saying, "Oh, well, those might be the type of
00:19:37
women that you desire, but you're never going to end up with any of those women,
00:19:42
and here's why." >> Yeah. rather than saying, "Hey, you know, tuck in your shirt, get a good
00:19:48
job, and um apply yourself, and you know, you could >> you can be whatever you want to be."
00:19:54
>> Yeah. You'll meet a nice young lady. Uh no, instead it's no, you're a [ __ ] You're a disappointment. A loser.
00:20:00
>> See you later, loser. Well, and then he goes on to explain in in detail, which I was I will spare us that here,
00:20:09
but he's talking about how women in general learn to humiliate men. And then Holden asked, "Did your mother humiliate
00:20:17
you?" And it's no answer, end of scene. >> We know the answer. Well, isn't that the
00:20:25
the questionnaire that or isn't that the the biggest question? You know, men are
00:20:32
some of men's biggest fears are to be embarrassed by a woman and then a woman's biggest
00:20:39
fear is to be murdered by a man. >> Yeah. Well, yes. I'm not going to pretend to understand the psychology of
00:20:45
that, but that uh seems seems to be a thought that that is out there. Um, >> yeah. I had a friend one time ask me why
00:20:54
we covered more unsolved cases than solved cases. And I said, 'Well, some of it is that we're in touch with law
00:21:01
enforcement and they need help or we're in touch with the family and they don't feel like they have a voice and so if we
00:21:07
can shine some details and shine some light on these unsolved cases, maybe it will move the needle. Uh, and then she
00:21:15
said, "Well, with all your the work that you've done on yourself through mental health, you'd probably be better off
00:21:23
starting a podcast that helped young men with their mental health." >> That that could be a thing. Stay tuned.
00:21:31
>> I don't I don't know if we need more cap captains in this world. >> Stay tuned on that front. We're garage
00:21:37
shifting gears dramatically. Uh, the So, that's the end of the scene. The next scene they are driving back from
00:21:44
Vakavville where Bill is explaining to Holden that Keer's probably trying to manipulate him. So, you know, don't
00:21:52
believe everything or don't put put every ounce of thought into every word that he is saying and every statement
00:22:01
that he is saying saying, sorry. Then we see a montage of the many visits to and
00:22:09
from for Bill and Holden on their road school tour. Cigarettes consumed during montage equal
00:22:18
three. >> But I think it is fascinating this whole Holden interviews Keer. He realizes that
00:22:26
his knowledge is extensive and also his knowledge is from a viewpoint that would
00:22:33
be hard for a normal individual to understand. Normal being not a serial killer, but he's aruck with his
00:22:44
intelligence and the way he views his life and views his actions almost like like he met a celebrity. One of my
00:22:53
favorite scenes is when he's talking to his girlfriend about how extensive that knowledge is and then he orders like an
00:23:01
egg salad sandwich. >> Mhm. >> And she has to say, "You don't even like cake salad sandwich.
00:23:09
What are you doing?" >> And you know what that is? A lot of that rings true still to this
00:23:16
day. when when I spoke with Douglas on that episode when I think I can't remember the
00:23:24
question I asked him but I was asking him to name a specific killer that he interviewed like who was the most
00:23:32
interesting or who did you learn the most from or who was the most powerful I can't remember my exact phrasing of the
00:23:38
question but his answer was Edmund Keer and he said that it was because Keer because of his high IQ Q. And part of it
00:23:48
too also has to do with, you know, he's like the character says in the show, he's been in that prison for 5 years.
00:23:55
So, he's had some time to contemplate and think about a lot of this stuff as well by the time that Holden Ford is
00:24:01
interviewing him. But just like with Douglas, Douglas is saying because of this guy's high IQ, he was able to
00:24:09
articulate for us what he did, why he did it, how he did it much and far better than any other killer that they
00:24:19
interviewed over the course of decades. So, the montage ends with our road school teachers at the Sacramento Police
00:24:27
Department where Detective Roy Carver stops them outside to ask for help. He was wondering if he could get them to
00:24:35
take a look at something a little unusual. This is victim Rosemary Gonzalez, who is
00:24:43
73 years old. The victim was beaten within an inch of her life, groped but not penetrated, the detective says. So,
00:24:53
survives the attack. Very brutal attack, but survives. He says that they found her at the doorway entry to the home to
00:25:00
her home. Her little dog's throat was cut. She was in and out of a coma and does not remember who did this to her.
00:25:08
Carver tells them that they need to know just how worried they need to be. [Music]
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details. [Music] All right, we are back. Cheers, mates. talk hands in the air. Cheers to you,
00:27:57
Colonel. >> Cheers to you, Captain. The next scene opens up outside of the motel where
00:28:04
Tench is enjoying cigarette number 11. Then the next day, they join Detective Carver on a ride out to the
00:28:14
neighborhood. Right, this is the neighborhood where the attack of Rosemary Gonzalez, the elderly woman,
00:28:21
took place. In this scene in the car, Ten is smoking cigarette number 12. Then they go and they interview the victim,
00:28:28
Rosemary Gonzalez, at her home. Afterward, they are sitting at a diner. Holden attempts to It's like he's
00:28:36
attempting his first criminal profile of the attacker here, >> right? >> He's just kind of thinking out loud.
00:28:44
Bill and Holden presumably miss their flights and they have to stay over till the next
00:28:51
day. So they so they were planning on going home. However, they missed the flight and now they're stuck there for
00:28:57
an additional 24 or so hours and with the extra time, of course, Holden wants to go back and talk to Ed Keer.
00:29:05
>> Well, I think this >> wants to go golfing. >> I think this shows where they're at and
00:29:09
their development as a person and their life. You know, Bill has a a home life. So, he's more disappointed that he's not
00:29:20
getting back to that normaly where Holden is like, "Oh, I got more time to talk talk to my buddy old Edmond."
00:29:28
>> Yeah. And I mean, trying to get into the minds of these fictional characters can be difficult uh because those minds
00:29:38
don't exist, frankly. But um you know, keep in mind Tench was really disappointed in Holden when
00:29:48
they were looking at the Ada Jeffre case and Holden his basic stance on it after
00:29:54
they spent a good amount of time on it was to the detective like we're in the dark. We we don't we don't have the
00:29:59
answers you're looking for. We don't we don't know what to do. And that is really to show how any one of us would
00:30:07
come up and rise through the ranks and right you gain life experience. You're gaining experience in this specific
00:30:16
world and realm on the job where oftent times it's trial by fire. You you you either perform or you don't. However,
00:30:26
you like any great football coach will tell you, you either win or you learn. There is no losing if you're a good team
00:30:34
and you're a good coach. And so, I think what this is trying to set up here is that Holden Ford, while he might be some
00:30:42
kind of genius when it comes to this stuff, he still needs to get his sea legs. He still needs to get some actual
00:30:51
experience and learn about these killers and learn from the known and identified
00:30:57
killers to hopefully be able to identify the unknown and unidentified killers. >> Yeah, I I agree with all that, but I
00:31:07
also think some of this stuff is also a reflection of the individuals that these characters
00:31:15
are based on. And I think one of the things, one of the things about John Douglas, and I think he kind of learned
00:31:23
more about this with his book, um, the cases that haunt us, you know, he's hired by John Ramsay to try to solve the
00:31:32
the murder of John Bené Ramsay. And he tells them straight up, hey, you're hiring me, but I'm working for the
00:31:40
victim, so if I think you did it, that's what I'm going to tell the world. And so
00:31:45
I think John Douglas and you know this it's just a human nature. Some people you meet they're more guarded or they
00:31:55
have a certain decorum to them and other people there there's no filter and it's
00:32:01
honest. It's an honest no filter. And I think some of Holden's actions are a reflection of maybe what the writers saw
00:32:10
in John Douglas's personality. and Douglas being one of the writers of the show as well. That's one thing that
00:32:16
makes this exercise so interesting to try to figure out and pull from where he's writing from experience
00:32:27
in a fictionalized dramatization of some of those life experiences. During this argument, they're arguing in the car on
00:32:36
the way to Vakavville because Holden wants Bill Tench to come in with him. Bill wants to go golfing. Bill's smoking
00:32:44
cigarette number 13. But then we go inside the walls of Vakavville and we see Bill Tench wearing his golf clothes
00:32:53
inside Vakavville. And we have Edmund Keer talking to Bill. He says, "So you're the big boss." Which which is
00:33:03
interesting because this is where you can see these guys manipulating Keer a little
00:33:09
bit, right? Remember, we've already had Tench warning Holden forward that Keer might be trying to manipulate him. And I
00:33:17
I like how they planted this seed of well, Bill Tench is this very accomplished FBI agent. And while he is
00:33:26
the leader of these two, um I just like how they kind of planted the seed that as Keer says, so you are the big boss.
00:33:34
>> Yeah. He's essentially only the big boss during these seminars that they're doing
00:33:39
with the local cops. >> But Keer doesn't Keer doesn't know any of that. >> Exactly. And that's the the seed they're
00:33:46
planting. >> But as far as the behavior science unit, they're basically on the same footing
00:33:52
because it's all new. >> Yeah. I mean, the their their supervisor looks at at Holden as the underling, but
00:34:02
what I'm getting at here is we by this point, what is one thing that they know and understand about Keer is how he
00:34:10
holds law enforcement to a higher standard and what he thinks and how he regards people from law
00:34:18
enforcement. Well, now you're not just talking to some young agent who was sent off here willy-nilly to interview you.
00:34:25
No, now they've sent he that young agent is back and this time he brought with him the big boss.
00:34:31
>> Well, and in his warped mind, he's like the higher level of individual they send
00:34:37
to him, the higher his importance is in the world. >> Yes. and Bill to this to this his
00:34:46
response is well I established the behavioral science unit several years ago but Holden has come in with some new
00:34:52
ideas. Keer tells the boys my mother was convinced that I would do something horrible someday.
00:34:59
Like what? He is asked and he replies like rape my sister. This was when I was 10 years old. He says his mother
00:35:09
frightened him by making him sleep in the basement. He says then he began strangling dogs and cats and burying
00:35:16
them in the backyard. Keer says he was 15 when he was put away. He was 21 when he got out.
00:35:24
Adding while other boys were experiencing their sexual revolution, he was locked up. Keer says he knew he was
00:35:31
going to kill his mother one week before he actually did. When he did attack her,
00:35:35
he did so with a claw hammer. He cut off her head and then he humiliated her. Edmond Keer says mothers should not
00:35:43
scorn her own son. If a woman humiliates her little boy, he will become hostile,
00:35:48
violent, and debased. Period. After we see Bill and Holton sitting together on a flight home, Bill is smoking cigarette
00:35:58
number 14. Oddly, they are sitting right next to one another with an open seat to
00:36:03
Bill's right. My guess is they're talking about things of a sensitive nature and probably want
00:36:11
to keep their conversation a little bit on the DL. Now we're back at Debbie's apartment. Holden and Debbie discuss
00:36:20
their mothers. So this whole episode is moms really dipping into the psychology of upbringing and a mother's influence
00:36:28
even on a subconscious level for regular people and violent offenders and even serial killers.
00:36:34
>> Yeah. Not to correct you, but I I do believe they're in Holden's bathroom, but I could be wrong.
00:36:40
>> They could be. Sitting in his front stoop outside of his house, we see Tench sucking on cigarette 15.
00:36:50
Then Holden and Tench drive back to FBI headquarters and they tell their boss that they have been secretly
00:36:56
interviewing serial killer Edmund Keer. This conversation does not go well at first, but Bill manages to smooth things
00:37:04
over with the boss. Their superior allows them to continue their sideshow, as he calls it, but says that no one can
00:37:12
know. They are to relocate their offices to the basement of the FBI building, to
00:37:19
which Bill says, "Basement? I am 44 years old." And then we see them going to the dark, dingy basement of the FBI
00:37:28
building. The episode ends with the boys relocating. Holton's box of his belongings is
00:37:36
closed, so we can't see any of his belongings that he's transporting with him to the basement to relocate his
00:37:45
office. However, Bill tenses boxes open, revealing a small basketball hoop and several Playboy magazines.
00:37:53
which apparently you can read those at the FBI office according to the show anyway or at least you could in the late
00:37:59
'7s. It seems odd choice of reading material. But uh I wanted to look into some of we know that Playboy magazine
00:38:08
has covered true crime throughout the years, but I wanted to find a couple specific articles. One was titled serial
00:38:16
murder and sexual repression. So maybe maybe there's some form of uh uh research for Bill Tench. But uh this
00:38:26
article sexual serial murder and sexual repression was from August of 1993 and it's talking about William Harren
00:38:37
who is actually the lipstick killer who we've already referenced in our talks about Mine Hunter. But then you take it
00:38:44
a little bit a step further. also in 93. You have Kelsey Nicole Turner who was born in 1993 and later in life in her
00:38:54
adult life um she was actually a murderer and a former adult model. She appeared in magazines such as Playboy
00:39:04
Maxim and 110. The song playing to close out this episode is none other than Psycho Killer
00:39:12
by the Talking Heads, which is obviously perfect for this episode to close it out
00:39:18
for many reasons. But this first season again is supposed to be about 1977 and the song Psycho Killer debuted in 1977.
00:39:30
But I love the scene where they're talking to their boss because it shows you basically what they're gearing to is,
00:39:40
okay, Holden has these new ideas and has this fresh perspective on how to look at
00:39:47
things, but he doesn't have the decorum. He doesn't understand the hierarchy. He
00:39:51
doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. But Bill sees the importance of Holden
00:39:57
and what he's trying to do. So he can play that cards. He knows how to work the system. He knows how to work his
00:40:05
boss a little bit. And I think it's very important because I don't think one is more important. I don't think one
00:40:14
character is more important than the other. They need each other in order to work the system to
00:40:22
so they can get out of the dark. So the behavior science unit can get out of the
00:40:27
dark and get these answers. But it's going to take both of them and both of their skill sets in order to move this
00:40:33
forward. Well, and they make each other better, right? It's it's wrestler Bill Tench who is
00:40:43
older, set in his ways, more experienced, and then Holden Ford is John Douglas who comes in there younger,
00:40:51
fresher, with new ideas. And so they kind of they they make each other better even when they don't get
00:40:59
along, even when they're butdding heads. And this makes a lot of sense when you think about it because if you review
00:41:04
their real life backgrounds, Robert Wrestler was investigating homicides before he even
00:41:12
got to the FBI, where John Douglas didn't have any real street experience investigating homicides until he was
00:41:21
paired up with with wrestler. when his early days of the of the FBI was just like we said yesterday, the reactionary
00:41:30
unit, which was mostly bank robberies and extortion cases. And then he he went into uh hostage negotiation,
00:41:39
which yeah, there are homicides that take place at some of those those hostage situations like discussed
00:41:45
yesterday, but you you know who did it. It's not a a mystery of who the killer was. So, episode 3 opens up in Park
00:41:55
City, Kansas. We see the ADT serviceman staring intently at a regular looking home on a residential street. He is
00:42:05
wearing plain clothes, not his typical ADT button-down collared shirt. He gets into his ADT utility van and drives off.
00:42:15
This is very interesting. So, we have a lot of creative liberties that were probably taken here. As we know, BTK
00:42:24
actually started killing in 1974. This is when he killed four members of the Otto family during a school day. So, the
00:42:32
family was actually a family of seven. Some of the older kids had already left for school that morning. And then he
00:42:39
goes into the home and terrorizes and attacks the remaining four, which is father,
00:42:48
mother, son, and daughter, the two youngest kids. Raider, we would later learn many years later that he stalked
00:42:55
the family for two to three weeks prior to the murders. Now, this is very we like to try to get to the details here
00:43:04
because while he stalked this family for several weeks prior to the murders, I don't think that he did so the two or
00:43:12
three weeks leading up to the murders. Because what happens once he gets inside of the home, he surprises his family,
00:43:20
but what surprises him is he did not anticipate the father, Joseph, to be home at all when he started off on that
00:43:28
attack. Right. >> And we know that from Dennis Raiders's own words. That could have been a big screw-up. And
00:43:36
and Joseph Otto, he was recovering from a surgery or an injury. Had he been 100%
00:43:45
man, there's a chance that Raider would have been caught for a B&E, that Joseph would have fought him off. Well, yeah,
00:43:54
because what we've learned is most of these killers are looking for easier victims. I'm sure there is, but it'd be
00:44:03
anomaly for to have a killer that's looking for more challenging victims. >> So, we could go on and on about BTK, but
00:44:13
of course, we gave you almost 200 minutes of BTK coverage in a four-part series.
00:44:18
>> Let's give them 200 more. Hey, real quick, though. I wonder if this has any um connection
00:44:25
because we know he worked for ADT. >> I wonder if that had anything to do with him coming up with his own moniker
00:44:36
BTK. Um, probably I mean bind them, torture them, kill them is how he described it in one of his
00:44:48
letters to one of the letters that he sent early in his serial killing career, let's call
00:44:56
it. Um, but let's keep in mind he also he also gave a lot of names in that letter. Like he was starved to have a
00:45:06
moniker. He was starving for them to be calling him something in the newspapers and for that name to make its way to the
00:45:14
newspapers. So while ADT and BTK may line up as far as initials go or breaking it down to three letters, there
00:45:22
were a lot of other suggestions. >> Yeah, a lot of other suggestions that he sent out there regarding this scene
00:45:31
though, too. Keep in mind, we're supposed to be talking about 1977 or beyond, and we know he can't be looking
00:45:39
at the Oro family's home here. Those murders took place in 1974. Raider did go on to kill again in April of 74,
00:45:48
killing 21-year-old Katherine Bright inside of her home, referring to that victim during stalking sessions and
00:45:56
notetaking as Project Lights Out. Raider did kill twice in 1977. He killed Shirley Relford in March and Nancy Joe
00:46:06
Fox in December. So I believe that the scene is suggestive of the Otto murders or one of these one of the murders from
00:46:15
1977. At the time when of seeing it for the first time, Captain, I thought it was
00:46:20
suggestive 100% of the terror murders because we hear a dog bark as the ADT serviceman BTK is walking back, walking
00:46:29
away from the home that he's surveilling and into his van. Theos, as we know, had
00:46:35
a dog, but we'll circle back to BTK stuff later, as does the series. So then, Bill and Holden go to Boston
00:46:44
University to meet with a professor. This is when we meet Dr. Wendy Carr. She tells them that she is working on a book
00:46:53
that is about to come out that is about white collar criminals that are not so different than Edmund Keer. This
00:47:01
surprises hold, right? How can white collar criminals be anything similar to Edmund Kemper,
00:47:07
>> right? >> Wendy replies that they are all psychopaths and she is studying captains
00:47:12
of industry. Dr. Wendy Carr is obviously brilliant and she seems to not just understand the value of interviewing and
00:47:22
learning from these locked up killers, but she seems to be able to see the full scope and potential for a project like
00:47:30
this. And she can articulate the mission of this project, how to facilitate it, and why it would be both useful and
00:47:40
rewarding. She mentions that maybe the findings could be published in a book. I love this scene. This appears to very
00:47:48
much excite Holden. He makes this very strange face like he's trying to conceal a heart on which
00:47:56
is so that is like kind of funny as Holden is taking notes and if you look I I looked closely to zoom in on his notes
00:48:05
and if you look closely he wrote questionnaire underlined followed by bullet points of personal history why
00:48:13
arousal and then the word book written in large capital letters. Yeah, I thought you were going to say I looked
00:48:20
in closely to see his hard on >> and it was impressive, my friends. >> Very impressive.
00:48:25
>> Very impressive hard on. >> Hey, that's a very impressive hard on you guys. >> I see why the the FBI recruited this
00:48:32
man. >> Um, so of course he he looks or appears excited or surprised, whatever, at the
00:48:40
the mention of possibly turning this work into a book. And we do know, of course, Douglas has he would go on to
00:48:46
write many many books. In fact, 17 of them thus far. We also know that uh Anne Burgess, who is who Wendy Carr is
00:48:57
loosely based off of, especially her professional career, went on to write books as well. In fact, John Douglas and
00:49:04
Anne Burgess wrote a book together along with Allan Burgess and Robert Wrestler.
00:49:11
This book came out in 1992 and it was called the Crime Classification Manual, a standard system for investigating and
00:49:19
classifying violent crimes. So at this sitdown, Bill tells Wendy that they are going to interview Benjamin Miller at
00:49:28
Boston Penitentiary. This is uh titled Bridgewwater. He says they're going to go interview that killer later that day.
00:49:37
Holden asked Wendy, "Do you really think that anyone would be interested in this
00:49:42
outside of law enforcement?" Again, this seems to be on the idea that they would publish a book and that it would
00:49:50
be released to the masses and the masses would want to read it, consume it, and understand it. Dr. Wendy Wendy Carr, her
00:49:58
response is absolutely brilliant. She says, "Imagine, like truly imagine what it takes to bludgeon someone to death.
00:50:08
The lust for control, the feeling of arousal, the decision to rape the severed head of your victim, to
00:50:15
humiliate her corpse. How could you possibly get that from an ordinary police report? You know why it took me
00:50:23
nearly a decade to publish my book? Because narcissists don't go to the doctor. Psychopaths are convinced that
00:50:30
there is nothing wrong with them. So these men are virtually impossible to study. Yet you have found a way to study
00:50:37
them in a near in near perfect laboratory conditions. So while Wendy delivers this brilliant speech, in fact
00:50:45
one of my favorite quotes of all of season 1 by my humble garage opinion. Again, look in the background if you if
00:50:54
you look closely. So, there are several bookshelves behind Dr. Wendy Carr in the
00:51:01
scene. If you look closely at the very many books on these bookshelves, you will see that one of those books is none
00:51:09
other than John Douglas's Guide to Landing a Career in Law Enforcement, which is funny that they snuck that in
00:51:17
there for many reasons, but also because that book, as real as it is, was not published until 2004.
00:51:24
Also interesting to me because of the character Dr. Wendy Carr is an academic. It's an odd book for someone that has no
00:51:32
desire to pursue a career in law enforcement. >> Yeah. I also think it's interesting and
00:51:38
I'm sure the question happened on would other people be interested in this? But I think it also shows there's
00:51:45
similarities with these killers. Some of these killers want to get recognition for their crimes and be known and some
00:51:53
don't. And same way in law enforcement, it's just human nature. Holden wants some attention. He wants to to have the
00:52:02
spotlight on him a little bit where I think Bill I I think he kind of care less.
00:52:09
Bill and I I believe this. Look, I'll tell you that I know a lot about John Douglas. I I can I think I know a good
00:52:17
amount about wrestler, but I but he's more of a mystery to me than Douglas. He he didn't write as many books and we've
00:52:26
talked to Douglas. He he is a I was going to say a spot of words, but no, he's a water fountain, like a a huge
00:52:35
fountain of words. Like he just talks and talks and talks and talks. Um, so he's very much an open book where I I
00:52:43
feel like Bill, at least the character Bill Tench, maybe even more so than the real life Robert Wrestler, but he
00:52:51
appears to be more of gets a lot of satisfaction out of supporting and aiding and advancing the local law
00:53:00
enforcement guys. Where Douglas and Holden Ford might be more of a Deion Sanders type, Robert Wrestler, Bill
00:53:07
Tench is more of a more of a players coach. >> Yeah, I think >> fill in the blank name.
00:53:14
>> Holden wants the subject to get attention, but if he gets some in return, not a bad thing. Where I think
00:53:21
Bill wants the subject to get attention, but no attention on him personally. and
00:53:28
Holden. Also, I think it's it goes back to what they're trying to show of lack of experience versus experience with
00:53:35
these two characters who are have the same job. It's Holden wants to learn and wants to
00:53:43
and thinks he can figure out all these killers where it's almost like Bill Tench is is his resolve is that well, we
00:53:51
can only understand so much of them because they are so different than we are. So, I'm not going to I'm not going
00:53:58
to lose sleep or or scramble my brain trying to figure these monsters out. So, outside of Bridgewwater Correctional,
00:54:07
Bill and Holden are having a discussion. Bill's smoking cigarette number 15, and
00:54:11
he tells Holden that you would be less fidgety if you smoke cigarettes. Once inside, they are actually denied
00:54:18
access to their subject. Remember, he was Benjamin Miller because Benjamin Miller, the killer, says he no longer
00:54:25
wants to talk. Now, this is a real man. Benjamin Franklin Miller, was arrested for crimes referred to as the Brawl
00:54:33
murders. This was a series of murders of five sex workers between 1967 and 1971 in Stamford, Connecticut. He was
00:54:43
actually released after serving 15 years. And it turns out that that was a very controversial case. In fact, it's
00:54:52
actually one that we should probably cover here in the garage at some point. But that is a real man who was locked up
00:54:58
for multiple murders and was locked up at Bridgewater. Now, back at the office, Bill and Holden are mapping out and
00:55:06
naming serial killers that they wish to interview. And I'll go through the names
00:55:11
that we hear them mention in this scene. First is they say Rissell which we would
00:55:18
later learn is Monty Rristle because they will actually go and interview him on the show and they say Monty Rristle
00:55:25
is only an hour away. Russell was charged with abducting, raping and murdering five women. However, because
00:55:32
he plead guilty, the he murdered five women between 1976 and 1977. This took place in Alexandria, Virginia, where he
00:55:41
lived, which makes sense because it's very close to where the FBI offices are. So, some of the women live very close to
00:55:48
him and he appears to have various motives, but he is plain and short a very, very disturbed mind. I was going
00:55:57
to say, sorry, captain. I was going to say because he plead guilty to the murders, I think that they didn't, they
00:56:03
ended up dropping the kidnapping and raping charges, >> right? Then you have Von Greenwood, also known
00:56:11
as the Skidro Slasher. He murdered 11 vigorant men in vagrant men in Southern California between November
00:56:20
1964 and January of 1975 in addition to a failed 12th murder that ultimately led to his capture. Also
00:56:31
mentioned here is Herbert Mullen who was deeply disturbed and actually very very mentally ill. He was in five
00:56:40
different mental institutions before he got out and started killing. So here's an example of some of his dementia. And
00:56:52
Mullen believed that the Vietnam War had produced enough American deaths to stall
00:56:57
earthquakes. So he thought that these earthquakes would come as some kind of blood sacrifice to nature. That there
00:57:04
had to be some kind of balance and finding that balance between man and nature would come through blood
00:57:11
sacrifices, the deaths of of humans, >> right? >> Mass deaths of humans. And so he thought that because of the
00:57:21
Vietnam War that this was stalling these earthquakes that were inevitable and that would destroy the planet and in
00:57:30
mankind. But he eventually Vietnam the war starts dying down. It starts to wind down by
00:57:40
late 1972. And so when that started, that war started to get in the near end stages, he believed that he needed to
00:57:50
start killing people in order to have enough deaths to keep those earthquakes from happening.
00:57:58
He later said that for this reason, he said that his father had telepathically ordered him to take lives. He would go
00:58:06
on to kill 13 people, including four teenage boys that were on a camping trip. He stumbled across them and shot
00:58:14
each of them in the head. Now, we did talk about Mullen. We've never done a a show or a deep dive on Herbert Mullen,
00:58:22
but we did talk a bit about Mullen in our Edund Keer coverage because this was some of the difficulty with
00:58:30
apprehending somebody like Keer or really the investigation at large. Because here we have in the
00:58:39
Santa Cruz area, you actually in that general area, you actually had three active serial killers who were operating
00:58:45
very differently all at the same time, which this is a new kind of criminal or at least the understanding of this kind
00:58:52
of criminal was very new at the time. So you can imagine how difficult and confusing that made things for police in
00:59:02
that area of California. >> Yeah. Some of these killers tell these crazy stories or give crazy reasons
00:59:10
why they commit these crimes and it's just hard to believe anything that they say because we know that they're
00:59:17
killers. >> Yeah. And most of them are liars as well. This is this is one individual,
00:59:22
however, that I will agree with my you know, I I'll go back and underline and echo my my statements about him early
00:59:30
that we just said minutes ago. deeply disturbed and very very mentally ill in my opinion. Now Herbert Mullen is also
00:59:39
discussed quite a bit in Robert Wrestler wrestller's book whoever fights monsters. So if you want to learn more
00:59:45
about Herbert Mullen there's a lot of material on him in wrestller's book who is aka Bill Tench. They also mentioned
00:59:53
the Cincinnati Strangler uh Postal Laskkey Jr. We talked about him in our Bricka family murders episode as there
01:00:01
was some thought that when the Bricka family was discovered murdered that it was the active serial killer that was in
01:00:07
the area at the time which it turns out very likely was not the Cincinnati Strangler. Very different MOS, very
01:00:15
different types of murders. They also mentioned Richard Speck saying he's in Illinois. Spec killed eight nursing
01:00:21
students in Chicago. He also took drugs to grow boobies in prison. >> Uh, you won't find that on Mine Hunter.
01:00:29
You'll find that for me here in the garage. >> Well, I took drugs to grow boobies in
01:00:33
the garage, but didn't fully work. >> Well, he he managed to grow a a full rack here. Um,
01:00:41
>> nice rack. >> My guy, Bill Curtis of American Justice, I feel like we don't talk about Bill
01:00:47
Curtis enough. Anyway, so Bill Curtis from American Justice managed to get his get his hands on videos,
01:00:57
videos that were filmed inside of an Illinois state prison which showed Richard Speck and other inmates drinking
01:01:07
alcohol, smoking cigarettes, doing cocaine, smoking weed, passing money around, and engaging in sex with each
01:01:14
other. So, at one point in these videos, Speck looks at the camera and says, "If
01:01:22
they knew how much fun I'm having, they'd turn me loose." Like, this is his dream scenario. He's just in there doing
01:01:29
just doing drugs and being as strange. Spec was anyway. All right, let's move on. Then you they mention Gerald
01:01:38
Schaefer from Florida. Schaefer is also known as the cop killer or the hangman. Those are some of his nicknames. Uh, not
01:01:46
the cop killer. I apologize. I misspoke. The killer cop. And really, they're rattling through these names, but this
01:01:54
is one hell of a list with each one of these monsters uniquely evil with some of them worse than the others. During
01:02:03
this mapping out the serial killer session, Detective Carver calls from Sacramento and informs Bill Tench that
01:02:10
there has been another attack and this time the victim is dead. The victim is the same age as the pre previous victim
01:02:17
and she has a dog. So they fly back to Sacramento. The victim's name is Laura Conway. She lived about a half a mile
01:02:25
away from the last victim. They attempt to profile the killer. They think that he's poor white trash, but older than
01:02:35
they originally thought. Remember, Holden was kind of just thinking out loud, giving a a very vague basic
01:02:42
profile previous to this. Bill will add to this thought, saying that the killer is at least late 20s. The they interview
01:02:52
Dwight Taylor. Dwight Taylor is aged 23. They interview him outside of his mother's house. Bill and Dwight smoke a
01:03:01
cigarette while they are trying to break him down. They arrest Dwight Taylor for
01:03:08
murder and attempted murder and celebrate at the police station. >> Yeah, this is the one with the he has
01:03:14
mom issues and >> and he's sitting outside when they interview him. And it's really, this
01:03:18
scene is very brilliant how it was put together by the director, the writing, and the the actors carrying it out
01:03:25
because even the way that the you got Detective Carter Carver with the our two FBI agents. Even the way they kind of
01:03:33
move around and position themselves differently at different times when they say different words or ask different
01:03:38
questions to the subject is is really kind of interesting. Not just interesting, but very strategic.
01:03:46
>> Right. Then our two road feds, they go back to interview Keer again. Keer talks
01:03:51
about some of his victims, saying he liked Mary the best, adding, "I was lukewarm on Anita." And we know Keer had
01:03:59
10 victims, seven nonfamiliar victims. The first of those were Mary Anne Peace and Anita Luchessa. They were both
01:04:10
18-year-old students from Fresno State University. Keer picked them up as they attempted to hitchhike to Stanford
01:04:17
University to visit friends. He dismembered them in his apartment, among other things. Later scattered the
01:04:24
remains near u a mountain. He tells Bill and Holden that he cut off his mother's head with a hunting knife.
01:04:34
He also admits to putting his mother's vocal cords into the garbage disposal because he wanted to shut her up for
01:04:41
good. He also tells them about how he decided to start burying the severed heads of his victims in the backyard of
01:04:50
his mother's home right outside of her bedroom window. >> Yeah. So, the victims would be looking
01:04:56
at her. >> Yeah. Looking at her. After Keer, the boys get to fly back home and no flight
01:05:04
would be complete without Bill Tench enjoying cigarette number 17. Once back at home, the boys are strategizing and
01:05:13
waiting for Dr. Wendy Carr to arrive. And to pass time, Bill Tension joins cigarette number 18 just outside the FBI
01:05:21
building. The good doctor arrives and then we see the trio walking off together discussing psychopaths.
01:05:34
[Music] Want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage each and every week.
01:05:40
Make sure you go to true crimegar.com and sign up on the mailing list. So much more to get to in this Mine Hunter
01:05:46
series. And until then, >> be good, be kind, and don't litter. [Music] [Applause]
01:06:13
[Music] Turn up the chill this September with My Mochi ice cream. Myochi is scoops of
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delicious ice cream wrapped in sweet dough. It's creamy, chewy, and totally unexpected. Craving something fruity?
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Hit strawberry or mango. Feeling classic? Cookies and creams where it's at. Gluten-free and only 70 calories a
01:06:45
piece? My mochi ice cream's perfect for midday breaks. After dinner treats, and sneaking one from the freezer at
01:06:51
midnight. Grab a purple box of Mymochi today and chew it, love it, repeat.