00:00:00
[Music] in tresto suku tril volaran tablets is the number one heart failure brand
00:00:04
prescribed by cardiologists and has helped over 1 million people with heart failure it's a prescription medicine
00:00:10
that treats adults with long- lasting chronic heart failure and works better when the heart cannot pump a normal
00:00:15
amount of blood to the body don't take in tresto if pregnant it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby don't take in
00:00:22
tresto with an Ace inhibitor or Alice Kieran or if you've had angio edema with an ace or ARB don't take with Alice
00:00:28
Kieran or within 36 hours of taking and Ace inhibitor the most serious side effects are angioedema low blood
00:00:33
pressure kidney problems or high blood potassium angioedema is swelling of your face lips tongue and throat that may
00:00:39
cause death if it causes difficulty breathing get emergency help ask your doctor about Ino to learn more visit
00:00:45
support. entresto.com or call 833 446 6699 for pricing visit ino.com backc if you can't afford your
00:00:57
medication novaris may be able to help when it comes to Quality sleep Ashley has you covered with top mattress brands
00:01:05
at winning prices and with special financing options available you can snooze now and pay later plus your
00:01:12
mattress purchase helps give the gift of better sleep to children in need and US
00:01:17
Special Operations forces visit your local Ashley store or shop online today and make every snooze count financing is
00:01:26
subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for details in 1970 two University students who had recently
00:01:35
fallen in love were murdered in an apartment in Columbus Ohio their names were Mary Petri and Bill Sprout the
00:01:43
crime was so brutal it drew comparisons to the Manson family murders That Shook the country less than one year earlier
00:01:50
police received hundreds of tips but within a few months the case went cold now a reporter and the sisters of the
00:01:58
two victims work together piecing together new forensic evidence and they are told by Columbus Police this case
00:02:07
can still be solved 50 years later listen to Mary and Bill in Ohio Cold Case wherever you get your
00:02:22
[Music] podcast [Music] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:02:59
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who has the power to
00:03:04
help you believe again here is the captain it's good to see you and it's good to be seen thanks for listening
00:03:11
thanks for telling a [Music] friend this week we are very happy to be featuring day glow Vibes by the
00:03:22
hardworking folks over Mast Landing Brewing Company this is a double dry hopped double India p ale wow someone
00:03:31
really likes to double things up over at Mast Landing so a ddh double IPA if you
00:03:37
will 8.1% ABV this one is not boozy at all but it is full bodied and a little pungent garage grade three and a half
00:03:47
bottle caps out of five and let's give some thanks and praise to our friends for helping us with this week's beer fun
00:03:54
first up we have Jen vau from Queens New York and also helping us fill up the fridge this week we have Joselyn doer in
00:04:02
Grapevine Texas everybody we mentioned they went to our website and clicked on the Pint glass and that helped us out
00:04:08
with this week's beer run and for that we thank you yeah BW are you in beer run go to the website store and get you some
00:04:18
get you some swag get you some true crime garage swag it's a great way to look good feel good and support the show
00:04:28
and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:04:36
[Music] [Applause] [Music] crime L you [Music] [Applause] [Music] hymon Lee was born in 1980 and after
00:05:23
immigrating to the United States with her mother and brother in 1992 she spent most of her teen years
00:05:29
years growing up in Baltimore County Maryland hay was a great student she was incredibly smart with many friends and
00:05:38
played lacrosse and field hockey hey attended the magnet program at her school woodlon high school this
00:05:46
is where and when she and fellow classmate Adnan Sayed really became acquainted Adnan is a popular student
00:05:55
athlete as well and the two H it off and started dating sometime in early 1998 the relationship becomes pretty
00:06:03
serious as far as high school relationship standards go the two go to prom together November
00:06:11
1st 1998 hey breaks off the relationship according to ha's diary Adnan does not take this well the relationship then
00:06:22
becomes something of an on again and off again relationship and it appears the two officially and finally break up just
00:06:29
before Christmas 1998 January 1st 1999 hey is interested in a new boy and it's an older boy from her work his name
00:06:41
is Dawn and the two go on their first date together on January 13th 1999 hymon Lee is last seen at
00:06:53
school then at about 3:30 p.m. that day Hay's family becomes concerned when she fails to pick up her little cousin later
00:07:03
she is reported missing less than a month later Hay's body is discovered partially buried in
00:07:09
leakin park in late February police subpoena adnan's cell phone records and begin
00:07:16
questioning the persons listed on adon's call list on February 28th 1999 Baltimore Police interviewed Jay
00:07:26
Wilds a guy who says that he is very good friend with Adnan Jay tells police that Adnan showed him Hay's lifeless
00:07:34
body in the trunk of her car after Adnan asks Jay he helps Adnan bury the body in
00:07:41
leakin park in September of 1999 Jay Wilds signs a plea deal agreeing to testify that he helped Adon dispose of
00:07:52
the body in February of 2000 Adnan Sayed is convicted of first-degree murder then in
00:08:02
2014 this closed case would change dramatically with the launch of a podcast called
00:08:11
serial the serial podcast featured the hmon Lee murder case and took a closer look at the case for and against Adnan
00:08:20
SED new interest in the case led to special appeals in the Maryland courts since then the murder conviction has has
00:08:29
been vacated charges dropped conviction reinstated and appealed again this week we check in with our friends Brett and
00:08:38
Alice from the prosecutors podcast for a discussion about the Haymon Lee murder investigation the case for and against
00:08:46
Adnan Sayed and where this very complicated case sits today this is true crime [Music]
00:08:58
garage [Music] [Applause] [Music] scar [Applause] scar Alice and Brett two of the things
00:09:18
that that I thought you did incredibly well with your coverage of this very complicated case was to be one to be
00:09:29
very expansive on on every different aspect of this case the the one aspect that I thought was so necessary with
00:09:39
your expansiveness and how much you go into great detail was the timeline because on serial it it's a whole
00:09:48
different packaged presentation than what you get when I tuned into the prosecutors for your coverage of this
00:09:57
complicated case where they're being a little more theatrical they're kind of bouncing around a little bit and the
00:10:03
timeline's Not So Clear in fact the timeline they give is a very short very brief almost a glimpse of the true
00:10:11
timeline and you guys gave a very detailed and expansive timeline obviously we don't have time to
00:10:19
go through that here today because I think to get through that timeline it took what two three fulllength episodes
00:10:26
that you guys did and what I want to hone in on for we we got a bit of a uh a complicated situation here ourselves
00:10:37
because we're going to have a lot of people that will listen to these episodes and there's going to be a small
00:10:43
portion of that audience that has no clue of the case that we're talking about so they're hearing about this case
00:10:48
for the first time and then we'll have the large majority that are well aware and have listened to serial maybe even
00:10:55
had gone back and listened to it a second or third time because it was so good but for you and we'll start with uh
00:11:02
Alice because she's the the only lady in the room sorry Captain what were some of
00:11:06
the key Parts in the timeline for you yeah thank you guys for um you know having us on and talking
00:11:15
about this I think it's really important to talk about the timeline and here's the thing about the way we structure all
00:11:21
our episodes we always have a timeline and this case was no exception and the reason it's no exception is that when
00:11:29
you lay out the facts and you lay them out in context and in relativity to each other a lot of the story comes through
00:11:36
whether you are leaning one way or the other the timeline is an incredibly important part of any type of case and
00:11:45
we always tell our listeners we want you to think for yourselves we want you to go to the primary sources and to um
00:11:51
engage with the evidence uh and don't have someone just tell you what it is and part of that is knowing where each
00:11:58
of the pieces of the timeline each piece of the case fits together in relation to
00:12:03
another thing especially I know that cell phone calls are a huge huge deal in this case and once you put all of these
00:12:11
cell phone pings within the timeline and see where it fits within the story it tells a much different story than
00:12:19
cherry-picking pieces and bits of the timeline or pieces and bits of the cell phone ping so I think one very important
00:12:27
thing that we do in the time line as we do in all our cases is to put kind of those cell phone ping which have drawn a
00:12:33
lot of controversy from all sides of you know the this this entire kind of story
00:12:41
um but puts them into context of where they fall and how certain stories fall apart when you look at the Timeline
00:12:48
based on these cell phone pings yeah and I'll just add to that I mean I've been listening to y' show for a long time and
00:12:54
you guys often do a timeline as well and I think you probably see the same thing
00:12:58
we do when when you actually lay out when events occur and you lay out what's happening in relation to other things a
00:13:07
lot of times by by the time you finish the timeline you actually have a pretty good idea of the story even if you
00:13:13
haven't gone that deep into the evidence and I think you talk about cereal cereal
00:13:17
is an amazing piece of entertainment and one of the reasons is because it kind of keeps you guessing
00:13:23
the whole time and we always find that we're we want to be entertaining but we also want to be enlightening and the way
00:13:30
to do that is not to hide the ball for people so we always want to lay out a timeline and obviously the events of
00:13:35
that day are important but so are the events that surround it when you look at their relationship they dated for a long
00:13:41
time they broke up a couple of times they got back together they had broken up in early December but then at
00:13:48
Christmas they're giving each other gifts and you have to wonder if it wasn't in maybe even both of their minds
00:13:54
that this is going to be a breakup like the last two this is going to be one way
00:13:57
to get back together but then hey Falls kind of head over heels for Dawn and a week before this
00:14:04
all happens she's changing her instant messenger profile to talk about how much she loves Don and how her job is to
00:14:11
stare into his baby blues and her her number one thing is being his girlfriend very public thing particularly at that
00:14:17
time in 1999 and the kind of thing that you could imagine M came is is a surprise to Adon even if he knew that
00:14:25
she was dating this other guy she'd been dating him for a week and all of a sudden
00:14:29
she's completely replaced him with this guy and I think when you look at that timeline you realize that the events of
00:14:35
January 13th sometimes you think oh that was a month after they broke up but not
00:14:40
really not really not if you compare it to other sort of emotionally charge events that are occurring with this case
00:14:47
being so polarizing especially on social media did you guys have any hesitation to cover it that's a great
00:14:57
question it is a polarized case I think um the reason it took us you know uh several years to to cover it was not so
00:15:08
much because we were afraid of blowback or anyone um being angry with us because
00:15:13
people will be angry at you no matter what you do more so it's because we didn't want to just um pile on this case
00:15:21
has obviously been covered by a lot of different content creators and we've always said we don't want to just be
00:15:27
another voice in the wi for any case there are a lot of very very worthy cases to cover and um we like to do you
00:15:34
know as thorough research as possible and that takes time as well and this no doubt because of the trials that have
00:15:40
occurred because of a lot of trial transcripts and you know content that's out there there's a lot of things that
00:15:47
you have to digest in order to do the case justice so part of the reason it took us a while to cover it it was the
00:15:53
amount of research it um required but also wanting to make sure that when we did cover it it was to add value in the
00:16:01
case and not just repeat what's already been said before and we knew everyone came out there'd be people who are upset
00:16:07
about it I mean that's just the way it is and that's fine and you know we've never shied away from controversy and
00:16:12
we've certainly never changed our position based on what's going to be the more popular View and I will say this
00:16:19
the thing that when we when we started to record this and and first episode and we're getting ready I was really nervous
00:16:26
about it but I was nervous because I felt like we owed it to we owed it to Haye and we owed it to Adon to get it
00:16:33
right and to be as straightforward as we could be with it we're prosecutors we look at this from a different
00:16:38
perspective but we did not come into this thinking we want to make we want to make sure that it looks like Adon s is
00:16:45
guilty we want to support our our friends in the prosecution team in Baltimore whatever we didn't do that we
00:16:51
were always going to go through the file and it's lengthy it takes a lot of time
00:16:54
to go through the entire case File to read the defense file to read the appeals in this case there's a lot of
00:16:59
information out there beyond what you hear in in podcast that took a lot of time but once once we got through that a
00:17:09
story emerged from for us that we were going to share with our audience and we were going to do that whether people
00:17:13
were happy about the outcome or not that's one thing that I was very curious about as prosecutors let's step aside
00:17:20
from the podcast world for moment and just go into prosecutor world but you know on True Crime garage we we are so
00:17:27
invested in in the investigation or The Manhunt finding out who did it and then and then apprehending them that's the
00:17:35
the parts that we really dive into and we really want to cover and go through that that's where our interests lie but
00:17:43
as a prosecutor by the time you guys catch your case they've already told you this is
00:17:50
who we think did it and here's a whole bunch of reasons why so where an investigator when they catch a case they
00:17:58
are often trying to sort out exactly what happened and then even in some jurisdictions in a lot of a lot of
00:18:04
jurisdictions uh hopefully one day maybe all of them that police protocol becomes
00:18:09
okay this is this is a homicide and we we will investigate it as such until the evidence proves otherwise but when a
00:18:17
prosecutor catches their case as said they they already have either grand jury or police telling you this is who we
00:18:25
think did it and here's the the evidence to why so how do how do you guys look at
00:18:30
a case when you first pick it up and and what do do you reinvestigate everything
00:18:35
that was done do you do you tear through everything that's done and and and let the evidence lead you to what you
00:18:42
believe the outcome to be or do you immediately start building your case against the person that they've told you
00:18:49
I think this is actually a place where we have a we have an advantage because you're right I mean there are some cases
00:18:54
and Alice and I have been involved in them where you're with your investigators pretty early on and you
00:18:58
really are sort of directing the investigation those are a lot of fun but a lot of times you're you're 100% right
00:19:03
one day somebody walks into your office they have a file they plop it on your desk and they say hey we think this guy
00:19:08
did X Y and Z let me know if there's enough you know we're ready to we're ready to charge this guy and our job
00:19:14
when you're a prosecutor is not unlike what you're doing when you're a podcaster you take that file and you're
00:19:19
looking through it and your as we often say your ethical obligation is not just to prosecute and is not just to win it
00:19:27
is to ensure that Justice is being done and that the person you are Prosecuting is guilty and that there is the evidence
00:19:32
to convict them so when you look through that file you're looking for what are the elements of this offense do we
00:19:38
actually prove that how do we know this happened what are we relying on what is our evidence can you trust this
00:19:46
eyewitness why didn't they test for fingerprints is there any DNA like you're going through you're thinking
00:19:51
through all the holes in your case for several reasons number one because you want to get it right number two because
00:19:56
you know one day a defense attorney is going to look at that same file and they're going to be looking for those
00:19:59
holes so that's what we do in our job and when in in a in the podcasting world it's the same thing you get this file
00:20:06
and you read through it and you're looking for holes and you're looking for what did the police miss or what are
00:20:13
other people missing who are criticizing what what is the defense making too much
00:20:17
of what are they getting wrong what are they getting right where are the weaknesses and where are the where are
00:20:21
the strengths and I think that is an advantage because we do it every day in our jobs it helps us actually when we
00:20:27
look at these cases to really break them down and figure out whether or not they
00:20:31
hold up and for those who are not familiar with this case I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler alert
00:20:37
here but if you were to go back and listen to serial you learn very quickly into the very first episode that this
00:20:44
story is going to be about the murder of a young woman hmon Lee who had her whole
00:20:50
life ahead of her she was very bright young woman making moves to to further her experience and go off to college and
00:20:58
probably would have went on to do great things however she is killed and her ex-boyfriend Adon Sayed is convicted
00:21:08
originally you know he's he's charged and they build a case against him and then he's later convicted so much of his
00:21:15
the case against Adnan as as it were presented by the podcast serial was that they were able to convict him heavily in
00:21:25
part due to Jay Wild's testimony against him now how would you guys you two as prosecutors handle a situation like this
00:21:35
because your your main witness in this case is a not credible and B not even likable like what what is the strategy
00:21:45
when you are dealt this card in your attempt to convict the accused so that that's a really good question and of
00:21:53
course Jay wilds and his changing story are uh you know endless endless fod for conversation about this
00:22:00
case and one thing that we emphasize in all of our episodes is that you are given your witnesses as you are we don't
00:22:10
coach our Witnesses we prep them and know what they're doing but know what they are U want to say and if there are
00:22:16
inconsistencies we pick those apart and the reality is that you will always have
00:22:21
witnesses who have differing stories because memories fade people get nervous on the stand they may be trying to
00:22:29
minimize their part in whatever uh whatever story they're trying to tell because we all put ourselves number one
00:22:38
and honestly the type of witness that Jay Wilds is on the stand for Adon saad's trial is not unlike most
00:22:46
Witnesses in general whether they are lying or not and so this case is not out of the ordinary with respect to a major
00:22:58
witness having changing stories it's something you have to deal with it is something that you certainly turn over
00:23:03
to the other side so that it is all completely fair game and fodder for cross-examination and the reason you
00:23:11
have it all out for the jury to hear is they hear all of the fodder for cross-examination they are
00:23:16
cross-examined and you compare against all the other facts in this case now Adon Sayad was not convicted based on
00:23:24
just one person's testimony it was a long trial there was a lot of evidence that came in that had nothing to do with
00:23:30
Jay Wilds but the jury gets to listen to All of the versions of Jay's story hear
00:23:35
him cross-examined hear him taken apart and also hear all of the other Witnesses
00:23:40
who are called to trial as well as the experts and the evidence put against it and the jury is charged with weighing
00:23:46
whether they believe Jay or any of the witnesses for that matter and weigh whether this man should be convicted
00:23:52
this is all incredibly important and why we say it's important for you to read uh
00:23:56
everyone who's interested in in this case to read the trial transcript because you begin to see that there is
00:24:02
no hiding the ball there can't be any hiding of the ball it is all out for the jury to consider which was done in this
00:24:08
case and one of the things that you do when you have witnesses like that and you really do often have them because as
00:24:14
we always say it'd be great if your best witness in a drug conspiracy was the little old lady in the choir from the
00:24:20
church but usually it's not going to be a lot of times your Witnesses initially when they interact with the police will
00:24:26
lie to them sometimes they lie us I mean we've been in the room when a witness broke and admitted what we knew to be
00:24:32
true because we had independent evidence and from that point for they were they were honest but they certainly got
00:24:37
cross-examined about that at trial and what you have to do is you have to take the other evidence and look at it and
00:24:42
with Jay Wilds he has a story that is inconsistent in many places but is consistent in a lot of places and we lay
00:24:49
out those consistencies essentially Jay's story is that Adon the day of the murder told him to take his cell phone
00:24:55
in his car to pick him up later that he he was going to to kill hay and there are cell phone number one he absolutely
00:25:04
did that there's no question there's no there's no dispute that he gave Jay his cell phone in his car there's also
00:25:10
Witnesses who heard overheard Adon Sayad that morning tell hey that he would need
00:25:15
a ride because he didn't have his car because it was in the shop which isn't true and Adon actually would tell police
00:25:21
officer that very same day that he was supposed to get a ride with hay but by the time he showed up she had already
00:25:27
left so he missed it so things like that are backing up this story that Jay tells
00:25:32
Jay knew the location of Hay's car which up to that point had not been found and
00:25:37
when you look at the location of the car and you look at those cell phone pings that night there's an outgoing call to
00:25:43
Jin puser that pings over where the car was found the call to Jen puser was to meet them so that she could pick up Jay
00:25:52
and take him home things like that are backing up his story they're supporting his story
00:25:58
Adon even says he was with Jay when he got the call from the police that hey was missing so there's just there are so
00:26:05
many things about Jay's story that aren't in dispute facts that you just can't deny and so even if there are
00:26:11
inconsistencies and there always will be the overarching story one that by the way he told to Jen puser that night and
00:26:18
that she actually told to the police first she's the first person to tell the story to the police not Jay so you know
00:26:25
if you think Jay is somehow being Guided by the police to to frame Adon well that
00:26:30
doesn't make any sense because they would have had to have done that with J with JY first and when JY tells that
00:26:35
story her lawyer sitting with her and her mom sitting with her which is a much better situation than Jay who did not
00:26:40
have an attorney when you combine all those things together you start to think yeah there's some inconsistencies
00:26:45
there's some problems but we can bolster the things that matter and we can surround it with all these other facts
00:26:52
and at the end of the day the jury is going to believe look I don't know that everything he said was true but what I
00:26:56
do know is is true is it ad not did it this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays
00:27:19
maybe you struggle with seasonal Blues this time of year can be a lot and it's natural to feel some sadness or even
00:27:26
anxiety about it but adding something new and positive to your life can counteract some of those feelings
00:27:32
therapy can be a bright spot something to look forward to to make you feel grounded and to give you the tools to
00:27:39
manage everything going on if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed
00:27:46
to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get match with a
00:27:52
licensed therapist and switch therapist at any time for no additional charge find find your bright spot this season
00:27:59
with betterhelp visit betterhelp.com garod to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp
00:28:08
hp.com garage Ino sukua tril volaran tablets is the number one heart failure brand
00:28:17
prescribed by cardiologists and has helped over 1 million people with heart failure it's a prescription medicine
00:28:23
that treats adults with long- lasting chronic heart failure and works better when the heart can not pump a normal
00:28:28
amount of blood to the body don't take in tresto if pregnant it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby don't take in
00:28:34
tresto with an Ace inhibitor or Alice Kiran or if you've had angio edema with an ace or ARB don't take with Alice
00:28:40
Kieran or within 36 hours of taking an Ace inhibitor the most serious side effects are angio edema low blood
00:28:46
pressure kidney problems or high blood potassium angioedema is swelling of your face lips tongue and throat that may
00:28:51
cause death if it causes difficulty breathing get emergency help ask your doctor about in tresto to learn more
00:28:58
visit support. ino.com or call 83344 66699 for pricing visit ino.com if you can't afford your medication
00:29:10
novaris may be able to help is it possible to predict the unpredictable can 3D printed life-size
00:29:18
organ models help to map out complex surgeries ahead of time is it possible it already is right here Mayo Clinic you
00:29:27
know where to go Rosetta Stone is the language learning program with a lasting impact
00:29:33
I've been using their app to learn French and it's not just about memorizing words but actually having
00:29:38
real conversations and it's not just French they offer 25 languages right now Rosetta Stone has an awesome holiday
00:29:45
deal 50% off their lifetime membership every language unlimited access forever for anyone keen on diving deep into a
00:29:52
new language check out rosettastone.com it's a GameChanger [Music] so let's stay on Jay Wilds for a little
00:30:12
bit a lot of people believe Jay Wilds lies about everything and that he had ulterior motive for placing the blame on
00:30:21
Adon a lot of people also believe that he made a plea deal with law enforcement before giving them any information well
00:30:31
I mean I think people have speculated several things about why Jay may have made up quot unquote made up the story
00:30:37
Jay was someone with a criminal record he was someone who sold drugs he had been involved in altercations with the
00:30:43
police before his lawyer which he did not get until much later than he should have had one and this is something we
00:30:50
point out when we talk about our in our episodes if you want to point to some police misconduct some real police
00:30:56
misconduct Jay's second interview he should have had an attorney he asked for an attorney by that point he'd
00:31:01
incriminated himself in this murder as as an accomplice and they didn't give him one and when he did get an attorney
00:31:07
it was someone who had been a public defender who had actually been a prosecutor and a public defender and had
00:31:12
gone in private practice who I think was the best thing that ever happened to Jay
00:31:15
because she was a really good lawyer and I think she recognized some of those issues and was able to get him a pretty
00:31:20
good deal now one thing I'll say about that the deal he made was he would plead guilty to accessory after the fact is a
00:31:27
very serious felony and you know he was looking it up to five years I think everybody thought he would get time but
00:31:35
I think if you read between the lines what actually happened there was some of the things that had happened when the
00:31:41
police were talking to him led the judge to go ahead and give him probation instead it's a good deal um but I think
00:31:49
it also helps Jay that at least according to the story he tells his involvement in the crime is all after
00:31:54
hey is is deceased I think this is very important because for so long when I looked into this case I thought well of
00:32:02
course Jay is lying and he has reason to lie and he's not going to face any consequence but that's not true he was
00:32:11
going to face consequences for his actions and for his involvement in this murder case now that's 100% right I mean
00:32:19
the first time they bring him in it's not like he sitting there with his lawyer and has a you know an immunity
00:32:24
agreement on the table he he walks right into and this is not unusual either I mean we see this all the time and I'm
00:32:30
always surprised by the number of people who in their first conversation with the
00:32:34
police will admit to everything and then they get a lawyer involved and the lawyer's like man I wish you just asked
00:32:39
for me earlier right and Jay that first interview he walks right into this accessory charge and he was
00:32:47
looking at at a at a good amount of time the first time he's told this story so yeah you're you're absolutely right that
00:32:54
deal that he ended up making wasn't made until m later when he finally did get a
00:32:58
lawyer frankly much later than he should have and I think if anybody would have had a complaint had let's say he had
00:33:05
been he had gone to trial and been convicted I think he actually would have had a pretty good argument on appeal
00:33:11
that a lot of his statements were taken in violation of his constitutional rights now that doesn't help Adnan sad
00:33:15
at all because Adnan can't defend his constitutional rights but they're you know do not do not do not mistake our
00:33:25
sort of General defense for prosecution in this case to mean that there weren't some some real misconduct going on there
00:33:32
absolutely was which is probably not surprising to most people who are familiar with Baltimore it's just it
00:33:37
didn't really involve Adon sad so much as some of the things the police did when getting Jay's story were were in
00:33:46
violation of his rights well and let's stay on that a little bit there for a second with the with the conspiracy
00:33:52
theory that the Baltimore Police wanted to do a frame job on and on Sayed and that they actually knew the location of
00:34:01
the vehicle the missing Hayman Lee's missing vehicle and that they they kept that
00:34:10
purposely had Jay lead them to the vehicle even though they again according to the conspiracy theory already knew of
00:34:18
its location or may have placed it there through and through Blue Blood right here and that's not going to change
00:34:25
however we've covered cases in the Baltimore area to see obvious clear signs of corruption with certain pockets
00:34:32
of that Police Department um and other politicians in in that that city as well so if it if it were to be the strangest
00:34:43
of conspiracies that would were to be true Baltimore's a likely venue for that but what would
00:34:53
be the motiv I don't understand what the motivation would be be or where that that conspiracy the seed of that
00:34:59
conspiracy theory even comes from it's a really good question and there is a lot
00:35:04
to unpack there and look we we are the first ones we we'd like to think that we are the first ones to call out police
00:35:11
misconduct when we see it it absolutely does exist and we'd like to think and we
00:35:17
do think in our experience that it is a small percentage of what there is but let's talk about this particular case
00:35:23
and the Baltimore Police here in order for this to have been a massive frame job conspiracy there are
00:35:31
so many things you'd have to believe that don't make any sense in this case so let's just take the two people that
00:35:36
you have at the story when the police are trying to decide who to frame you have Jay Wilds who has a criminal record
00:35:42
he's a black man living in Baltimore who's already had scuffles with the police he's known to be a drug dealer he
00:35:48
is often around people who um are in trouble with the law he himself has described himself at this time as a
00:35:57
criminal element of Baltimore so he views himself as a criminal and then you have on the other hand ad nsed an honor
00:36:05
student who regularly attends mosque with his family is involved in his mosque um and he is in the honor classes
00:36:14
with the rest of the honor students applying for colleges likely going to get into college a smart boy a very
00:36:23
popular uh student at woodlon high school he is the prom Prince you know he's not only liked
00:36:29
by students uh he's liked by teachers he is really kind of the shining example of
00:36:34
what a what you'd want in a student so between these two people it really boggles my mind why the police would
00:36:42
choose to frame the honor student who has absolutely no criminal record over the the person who is known to have a
00:36:50
criminal record who you know continues to to be involved in the selling of drugs that they would choose Adon to be
00:36:57
the one to frame and then on top of all that why would they have the person that
00:37:01
this entire frame job relies on would be the person who is least credible someone
00:37:07
who does have a criminal record and if in fact they wanted their entire frame job to rely on Jay Wilds someone who in
00:37:16
the court of law as we've already seen is going to have a lot of credibility issues why would it be that the main
00:37:23
point of their frame job would be to have him lead them to the car when they've already put out a bolo be on the
00:37:30
lookout for every police officer to be on the lookout for Hay's car for weeks and they're not able to find it I mean
00:37:39
those of us who work in law enforcement or law enforcement adjacent recognize that even if you're alleging cons even
00:37:46
if you're alleging you know corruptness within a department there are many individual actors within a department
00:37:53
usually a a bad actor is not going to be an entire department think about all the
00:37:58
people you can barely get people to you know turn in their time sheets on time much less all be part of this big
00:38:04
conspiracy where there's a be on the lookout for Hay's car and no one happen to accidentally slip up and actually
00:38:11
find the car if you're the police and say you know be on the lookout but don't actually be on the lookout because we're
00:38:17
going to have our criminal element of Baltimore find the car for us so that he can be our main witness against this
00:38:24
honor student I I mean I mean that is that is such a a difficult and also frankly stupid frame job don't put out
00:38:32
the bolo pretend to put out a bolo but don't actually put out a bolo it wasn't a pretend bolo they they really did have
00:38:38
these announcements out to all law enforcement and not just their own Department across jurisdictions to be on
00:38:44
the lookout for this car you'd have to be coordinating this Frame job across multiple jurisdictions when we know that
00:38:51
it's really difficult to have all of your jurisdictions row in a line we talk about this
00:38:57
uh a lot of times when there are jurisdictional fights between the state and the local and the federal um law
00:39:02
enforcement agencies you're looking at this times 10 across basically the Eastern Seaboard I'm not saying
00:39:10
that police corruption doesn't exist but this police corruption would be one beyond the imagination of any Hollywood
00:39:19
writer and when you look at the facts of what is happening in this case it is so
00:39:25
incredibly unlikely and also kind of the worst way to go about a frame job because if they knew where Hay's car was
00:39:34
they took they you would have to believe that they took this incredibly risky risky step of leaving it there for weeks
00:39:43
unprocessed not looking for evidence or by the way if you know where where her car is why not just plant
00:39:50
something of Adon in there that is a great way to frame someone to put their DNA in there or to put you know a report
00:39:57
card or whatever in her car instead you're going to have to go through this you know hoop jumping exercise of having
00:40:06
your witness Jay Wilds lead you to a car where you knew it was and you could have
00:40:10
actually planted much better evidence to frame him frame Adon if that's what you
00:40:14
wanted to do I like what you said there Alice about risking leaving the vehicle there okay look God bless B Baltimore
00:40:22
and the good people of Baltimore but it is not the safest the the city in in America and it is certainly a city that
00:40:31
has higher rates of crime and to where where do they when he does when Jay does lead the police to the vehicle what part
00:40:41
of Baltimore is that vehicle found it's just east of uh leakin Park it's pretty close to lean Park which as everybody
00:40:47
knows in Baltimore and anybody seen the wire is where everybody dumps the body so not necessarily the best part of
00:40:53
Baltimore right so to and and they put out the Bolos to be on the Lookouts a couple of times leading up to
00:41:00
him leading them to the vehicle and this is over the course of a couple weeks correct yes they they were looking for
00:41:09
the car since she disappeared but when they found her body they really picked it up including asking for the entire
00:41:13
Eastern seab board to look for it right and so if you know that the vehicle is there and you're going to build a lot of
00:41:19
your case around that vehicle you in that City you're running the risk of somebody's jacking that car stealing
00:41:26
your stealing your evidence right like stealing stealing your your what you're going to one build your case on and
00:41:36
two give some credibility to your already questionable witness that you're going to eventually put on the stand and
00:41:43
Nick that's a great Point not only are the police looking for it you know this this case was on the news it was parked
00:41:50
you know like in an Alleyway what if so you let's say you have all of your police law enforcement on board to not
00:41:56
call it in even though there's a bolo they know where the car is but not a single police officer calls it in how do
00:42:01
you prevent all of the individual passer buyers who are not part of law enforcement who may have accidentally
00:42:06
seen it and think oh my goodness I I just saw that the police are looking for this car and I this is my daily route to
00:42:12
work I'm just a private citizen I'm gonna call it in you know that that is a huge risk especially if we're talking
00:42:18
about weeks of letting this car sit out in the open it wasn't in a garage it was
00:42:23
in an Alleyway you know not a lot of people travel this Alleyway but it was still out in the open so you're facing a
00:42:29
lot of risk that a you know a good Samaritan who's not part of law enforcement will accidentally call The
00:42:34
Car in and just two other points I want to make because we've been talking about
00:42:37
the evidence that would be lost and I think that's a huge point and it makes you wonder if they wanted to do that all
00:42:42
they had to do was process the car not tell anybody they had it and then use it have him lead you to the lot where it
00:42:49
was it's not there but it's because you've already claimed it you could have done that the second thing is they don't
00:42:56
know what they're going to find in it you know what if they do this old frame job with with Jay and they go out to the
00:43:00
car and they open the front door and there's a serial killer driver's license sitting in the in the driver's seat he
00:43:05
he lost it and now they're like well shoot what do we do now we got this whole frame job going and here's the
00:43:11
evidence of the person who actually did it and the last thing talk about cell phone pings if you assume that the
00:43:17
police either knew where it was or planted it there so he could go find it it just so happens to be exactly where
00:43:23
the cell phone pinged when Adon and Jay were together when Jay is going back to talk to Jen and one thing we
00:43:30
know for certain is that at the point the police talked to Jay for the first time they did not have that information
00:43:36
they would not have known that so that is either an incredible coincidence or or something else is going on with this
00:43:42
Frame job I've always struggled with this case whether or not Adon was innocent or guilty it's a red light case
00:43:48
for me and I think one of the issues in this case is because there's a time period where she goes missing and a time
00:43:55
period where she's found and the information we get from the eyewitnesses becomes a little blurry it becomes a
00:44:03
little confusing so it's always a problem everybody talks about this you guys talk about it on your show the more
00:44:09
time between when someone goes missing when the police go into action when a body's found when a suspect is arrested
00:44:16
when Witnesses are interviewed the more time that passes the more you're going to have confusion and you have that in
00:44:22
this case and you see it in things like nobody can really conf confirm when you know hey was interviewed by the news you
00:44:29
would think that would be something everybody could confirm and for a very long time people thought that happened
00:44:33
on the day she disappeared seems like it actually didn't seems like it happened about a week before that stuff like that
00:44:38
eyewitness accounts of of seeing hey go get some french fries or do this or do that or she was supposed to go the
00:44:44
wrestling match there was no wrestling match that night so those there are little things that you certainly lose
00:44:50
which is by the way another reason why when the police find the body month after she disappears if they had the car
00:44:59
they would have processed it right then because every second that passes is seconds that you're going to lose
00:45:04
evidence you know you may have DNA that degrades the car might get stolen as we talked about you need to talk to people
00:45:10
you need to move forward but the thing about it is I think there's been a lot made of sort of memories changing and
00:45:17
people forgetting but and that was a huge focus in serial the very first episode of
00:45:22
Serial she spends half the first episode saying things like if someone asked you
00:45:27
what you were doing six weeks ago you know would you be able to tell them and all that stuff but there are some huge
00:45:32
pieces of information that we knew immediately you know there's this eternal debate about whether or not ad
00:45:38
Adon aste for a ride that day that very day that she went missing he told a police officer he asked her for a ride
00:45:46
so like we can debate that and we can debate how people's memories shift and maybe people forgot certain things but
00:45:51
we have contemporaneous evidence that he did that things like that I think are are much harder to chalk up to to
00:45:59
Memories fading now I will say this a big problem we have is investigations happening 17 18 19 years later we talk
00:46:06
about that some in our case as well where people are asked to explain things that happened 19 years ago 20 years ago
00:46:12
and and they don't remember they don't remember what happened at all and that adds another level of confusion but I
00:46:17
think you can get down to some pretty important facts that we know because of documentation in and around the event
00:46:25
there will always be some stuff lost and there's a lot of that in this case but I
00:46:29
don't know how important it really is at the end of the day yeah I think that's incredibly important to know here
00:46:34
because with any case even if there was no lag in the investigation you're going
00:46:39
to have either inconsistent stories or people's memories are just going to not be perfect we've talked about this a lot
00:46:45
that circumstantial evidence is just as weighty as um direct evidence but the the reality in the court of law but the
00:46:53
reality is that direct evidence iwitness testimony is faulty not just because of
00:46:58
memory but because our brains um process things differently and we may not always
00:47:02
know that what we are witnessing at the time is going to be of evidentiary value
00:47:06
later so we're not taking notes at the time we're not making sure to parse through every detail for purposes of uh
00:47:12
regurgitating at a later time which is why eyewitness testimony is not the golden standard necessarily taken in
00:47:20
conjunction with other evidence can be very helpful but in this case I think so much hay has been made about um parts of
00:47:28
people's memories that we can't remember but you have to parse through what is important for purposes of the elements
00:47:35
of the crime that Adnan was charged with or and whether it's just going to be ancillary to the real story here and
00:47:42
when you look at the brass tax and things that we can confirm a very a very sturdy story actually begins to emerge
00:47:50
and it doesn't really matter the the things that are gray on the outside because they don't go to the core of
00:47:55
what happened that day and whether it's important for purposes of um the charges
00:48:01
that were brought against Adon and the ultimate conviction Brett what was your and I want to focus in on the timeline
00:48:10
still here what when you're putting together your bullet points for this very expansive
00:48:14
timeline what was the one item on that timeline that you were looking forward to diving deeper in and figuring out the
00:48:23
details of such and it doesn't have to be something that pointed toward guilt or toward innocence it could be
00:48:30
something that that had little to do with the case at all but when you're putting together this this very big
00:48:35
timeline what was the one thing that that jumped off the page to you that you said that now I want to know more about
00:48:41
that and and what did you learn so there are a couple things it's hard it's hard
00:48:46
to narrow it down to one you know I I'll say one thing that that really jumped out to me and I think is has jumped out
00:48:53
to a lot of people and that's there's always this question about leak and park and there's questions about cell phone
00:48:59
pings and how accurate they are and sometimes you'll hear people say things like the cell phone data is useless you
00:49:05
know I pulled up a Entertainment Weekly article which as we all know is the ultimate source of news and one of the
00:49:12
bullet points about this is the cell phone pings mean nothing which is so absurd on so many levels because number
00:49:19
one cell phone calls tell you who were calling tell you what time and even to the extent people argue that some of the
00:49:26
cell phone pinks are unreliable they're incoming calls in the same data sheet that says incoming calls are not
00:49:32
reliable for location specifically says that outgoing calls are and so a lot of people focus on there are two incoming
00:49:39
calls that ping off the leakin uh Park Tower and so people debate can you trust those or not well one thing that I
00:49:46
thought was interesting is the phone there's only one other time that the phone actually pings in leaking Park and
00:49:56
it's on January 27th and on January 26th sort of late at night Jay and jinu Sater
00:50:04
together she gets pulled over the police get J of the car they start to harass him I think it's how he'd put it he
00:50:11
starts to kind of fight back and eventually they arrest him so Jay gets arrested late at night on the 26th the
00:50:18
next day on the 27th is the only other time the cell phone pings in leak Park and it pings from an outgoing call which
00:50:27
means unlike the incoming calls the night of the the murder this is one that everybody agrees is accurate and it puts
00:50:35
that cell phone Adon cell phone in lean Park and it's to someone that Jay knows and I think the natural sort of question
00:50:45
I had was is that Adon driving into lean Park having heard that Jay has been arrested seeing whether or not the
00:50:55
police Poli are there and driving by the location of the burial seeing that there
00:51:00
are no police there and calling Patrick to try and figure out what exactly happened to Jay why has he been arrested
00:51:07
so for me that was a time that was a time period that really stood out seeing that the body had not been recovered
00:51:13
either right exactly and the the the thing is too that is adnan's cell phone in leak
00:51:23
Park the very same Park that he will later say that he has no awareness of the of its existence he's not been there
00:51:32
he doesn't know that people put bodies there correct yeah and and that's 100% true and that's one of those things and
00:51:39
there's another there's another point when you you read through various um parts of the case File where
00:51:45
before that call even happens the the bus I think the track team or one of the teams is actually driving through leak
00:51:52
Park and adon's on the bus and they're talking about how this is where they bury all the bodies
00:51:58
and it's just the notion that this park where all the bodies end up which is a couple miles away from woodlin that
00:52:05
everybody in the high school wouldn't know about that I think is pretty silly but when you combine that with the fact
00:52:09
that Adon absolutely was in that park with his cell phone making phone calls I think it really makes you question a lot
00:52:17
of of what you've been told about about this case and about Adon in particular and we were all in high school once and
00:52:23
I've got to tell you the it's very difficult for me to believe that the teenagers are not talking about the park
00:52:30
nearby where the bodies are found um like I that that has to have been something that comes up uh especially
00:52:38
around Halloween time or just anytime you're joking about somebody being missing it that that's but you know we
00:52:45
can we can give him the benefit of the doubt and say you know what maybe he never did hear of any of those things
00:52:50
from any of his his friends or or classmates but what we can cannot and what is not in dispute is that his cell
00:52:58
phone is in a park that he will later claim that he has no wareness of that Park the name of it or that uh the
00:53:06
bodies sometimes are recovered from that Park so that I mean that that is a pretty big hurdle for him to to clear
00:53:15
after the fact Alice for you what was what was the the moment on that timeline for you that you wanted to learn more
00:53:23
about again it doesn't have to have anything to do with innocence or guilt but just something that that jumped off
00:53:28
the page that caught your attention that you wanted to learn more about and what
00:53:31
did you learn yeah I you know I thought it was really interesting we've heard about Jen puser a lot I've seen her um
00:53:39
you know talked about in other podcasts and obviously she's talked about her her
00:53:43
role in this a lot so I've I've not really dived into Jen piter's um uh interviews with the police before we uh
00:53:50
decided to cover this case and I thought picking apart what she would would have
00:53:55
known and when she knew it and the fact that she told really Jay's story to the police before Jay told the police the
00:54:02
story was enlightening for me because she would have only gotten her information from Jay which helps put us
00:54:09
kind of the timeline of when these things would have happened because if there in fact was a conspiracy and that
00:54:15
Jay was coached by the police to tell a certain story to be able to frame Adon it would have had to come at a time
00:54:20
before Jen even went to the police before Jay ever had contact with the police which was not something that I'd really
00:54:27
heard before and so again that timeline of when stories began to take shape and who they were told by um were were very
00:54:35
helpful for me in understanding okay if there were a frame job if there were coaching by the police they would have
00:54:41
had to start coaching Jay well before he even had contact with the police well how would they have done that how would
00:54:47
they have gotten to Jen pitar before that and and you know one thing that that I didn't quite grasp on until we
00:54:53
dove into this was the fact that when the first time Jen talks to the police you know she she's she kind of says I
00:55:00
don't know anything which I think we could all completely uh empathize with if she she was not there uh for the
00:55:07
burial she wasn't there for any part of it she heard about something very disturbing from Jay after the fact that
00:55:13
she's afraid she doesn't know what's going on and if she were to say that she knew anything she could be incriminating
00:55:19
herself or her friend Jay and so I understand the first time she's saying I don't know anything but then when she
00:55:26
goes back and gives her whole statement to the police and she does it not alone but with her attorney and her mother
00:55:33
sitting there it makes the whole situation of police coaching a lot more difficult you have not only an adult in
00:55:41
the room her mother but you also have a professional an attorney sitting there that type of coaching is is just it's
00:55:48
going to be very very difficult and it makes the whole police coaching aspect of The Conspiracy Theory a lot more
00:55:57
difficult to overcome to to to prove in this instance when you see genen Story how she tells it and how it takes shape
00:56:06
um and again that's something that I I think the the timeline really begins to tell the story because of when she
00:56:11
speaks and how she could have known her information which was from Jay and just one other thing on that and something I
00:56:16
think we should all remember and I think people forget Jay and Jen I mean they're
00:56:21
both teenagers Jay's out of high school but I think he's 19 at the time JY may be 19 but they're both teenagers and you
00:56:29
have to believe that the police in concocting this Theory have decided we're going to hang this whole case on
00:56:36
these two teenagers one of whom has a criminal record as a drug dealer we're going to put all our faith which
00:56:42
includes keeping our jobs and you know possibly staying out of prison because usually when you frame people for a
00:56:48
crime that's a crime in of itself we're going to put all our faith on these teenagers and send them forth into the
00:56:52
world and here we sit 20 years later and to this day neither one of them has said
00:56:57
it was all lie the police coach just you know we were we were pressured by the police neither one of them have done
00:57:03
that I think that's significant well and one thing I like that you guys did real
00:57:06
well was the presentation of Dawn and clearing up the so don is dating hmon Lee at the time of of her death and Adon
00:57:18
Sayad is the ex-boyfriend now I I haven't gone back and listened to serial and again this is not anything critical
00:57:27
of their presentation in fact I enjoyed I enjoyed the podcast very much and every year around Thanksgiving on that
00:57:35
long weekend I usually go back and revisit something uh from yester year maybe an old book or something and read
00:57:41
it again or pick pick something up watch watch an old movie for the second time this year it might be serial uh
00:57:47
listening to your guys' episodes peaked my interest and I might have to go back and listen to seral again it was that
00:57:53
good but I I feel like there if I remember their presentation correctly yes you're aware of dawn early in the
00:58:02
episodes but it's not until late in that first season that the idea is pushed forward that whoa he may he may be a
00:58:10
suspect here he may be somebody that we should have some consideration of did he
00:58:15
do this and with your guys's timeline you you very clearly stated that the police looked at this guy
00:58:25
and when they start looking at him and they start looking into this case they're very quickly led
00:58:33
to Adnan who they believe is a better suspect and and can you kind of just take us a little bit and expand on that
00:58:41
a little bit for those that may not be familiar with that part of that detail of the investigation because a lot of
00:58:49
people's perception is what was delivered to them in Cal that that oh we spent so much time de going through the
00:58:56
details of Adon and Jay and oh here's this other guy that we should give consideration to when in fact it was it
00:59:04
was very likely the reversal and look there's nothing wrong with taking a look at dawn and and seeing whether or not
00:59:12
you know there's any connection there certainly the police would have done that he's the current boyfriend he's
00:59:16
going to be an initial suspect they talk to him multiple times you know they there are notes if you read the case
00:59:24
File their notes are they're like yeah it didn't seem that broken enough about her her leaving because at the time you
00:59:29
know for all they knew and I don't know why they really thought this but there were a lot of people who thought she
00:59:34
went to California I don't really understand that it's we see this a lot you guys see this a lot in cases where
00:59:40
people disappear and inexplicably the police are like well maybe they ran away it's like no they didn't but there's
00:59:46
nothing wrong with looking at him eliminating him as a suspect and moving on but the problem you have and why we
00:59:52
need to move on from da is when you look at the Timeline heya is supposed to pick
00:59:58
up her cousin I believe it's her cousin some people say it's her niece I'm not 100% sure but she's supposed to pick up
01:00:03
her cousin at around 3:30 at her school she she's very conscientious about that she does it every day and she doesn't
01:00:12
pick her up and what we all know for certain knowing hey knowing that fact is that by that point whatever was going to
01:00:20
happen to her had happened now maybe it was she'd been kidnapped and she was killed later maybe she was killed but
01:00:25
the criminal action had happened and you have Don who is working Don who has a time card a computerized time card that
01:00:35
can't be changed later without it showing up on the time card who is not he's still at work at that time there
01:00:42
are people who say he's still at work the the opportunity for him to do that in that time period is not there nor is
01:00:50
the motive he'd been dating hey for two weeks by all accounts they were very much in the honeymoon f face that Hay's
01:00:56
last diary entry the night before she died is this lovey-dovey thing about Dawn somehow you have to believe she
01:01:04
went from that to they get into some kind of altercation at a time when he's supposed to be at work he murders her
01:01:10
and then somehow he hides the car buries the body nobody notices he gets back to
01:01:17
work nobody notices and he gets up to his house at about the time you expect him to be there how how you can f all
01:01:24
that into the timeline is kind of Beyond me and honestly the only reason to think
01:01:29
Don did it is because you don't want it to be Adon there's no actual evidence that he did and I just feel like he is
01:01:36
one of those victims of True Crime where there are people out there who get wrapped up in these cases he had known a
01:01:42
hey for a couple months he dated for a couple weeks for his entire life he has had to deal with people questioning
01:01:49
whether or not he murdered her and that's just another tragedy on top of a lot of the tragedies in this case yeah
01:01:54
that may be a little bit of a misfortune but he was dating a girl that went missing he was dating a girl that was
01:02:01
murdered I believe he had just as much motive as Adon because we don't know if Hayman Lee told him hey I I'm not
01:02:09
interested in you I'm going to get back with Adnan we don't know that I think he
01:02:14
could have been looked at Harder questioned harder I mean he was the current boyfriend she goes missing he
01:02:22
doesn't try to call her cell phone no record of that a lot of people state that she was actually GNA meet da before
01:02:30
she actually picked up her cousin so there's some question there and then he is just happens the day she goes missing
01:02:39
to be working at a location that he never worked at before never worked at again and the time card I believe was
01:02:46
handwritten by his mother's girlfriend I mean there's just enough for me that he
01:02:52
should have been looked at Harder well I'll just address a couple of those number one that wasn't the day she said
01:02:57
she was going to meet up with him this is one of the things people get wrong the day she said she was going to meet
01:03:02
up with him was the day that they were going to play Randle toown in wrestling and she had written a letter for him
01:03:07
that she was going to leave with him that actually was a week before we know that because the person who said she was
01:03:13
going to meet up with him was the other scorer for the wrestling team and she was very upset when she didn't show up
01:03:19
that happened the week before so that is an example of sort of memory getting whatever number two she's not
01:03:24
questioning the relationship there's no evidence she is all the evidence is that
01:03:28
she is head over heels in love with him number three I can show you the computerized time card which you could
01:03:33
not enter more than a couple days after this happen so you would have to believe
01:03:39
that whoever's helping him get away with this is doing it knowing that he's killed someone and and doing it before
01:03:46
the body's even found which I also don't find to be very believable as far as the
01:03:50
phone calls two things ad Adon never called her either but people say he never called her
01:03:58
that's not actually what he said he said he couldn't recall whether he ever called her number two he was over at
01:04:04
their house he was visiting with Hay's family a couple days after this happened so this notion that he had no concern
01:04:13
about her and wasn't worried about her it just isn't true when you're diving into a case that's so polarizing and the
01:04:20
evidence is drawing you to the conclusion that Adon is guilty was there a piece of evidence that kept steering
01:04:28
you to the direction of maybe that he was innocent well the things for me I mean number one and this goes back to
01:04:36
something we talked about earlier listening to serial I found Adon to be likable and I know a lot of people
01:04:42
didn't I found him to be likable I wanted him to be innocent and if I hadn't seen it happens so often that
01:04:49
very likable people do really terrible things I think it would be really hard for me to get past that and I think it's
01:04:53
it's hard for for a lot of people to get past that I mean he's not somebody who has a history of violence he's somebody
01:04:58
who as far as we know in prison was was a perfect model prisoner you know if if he stays out of prison I I don't doubt
01:05:06
that he will probably never commit a crime again that you know you compare that to the person who had to strangle
01:05:13
this this this young woman to death and it feels in congruous you know when you think about evidence look Alonzo
01:05:23
sellers is not a terrible suspect anyone who finds the body is always going to be
01:05:28
a suspect he has sort of some weird proclivities he likes to go streaking we know that he's assaulted somebody in a
01:05:35
vehicle before I mean these are things that make you want to look at him you know if you're the
01:05:40
police there's not a lot of evidence that he's involved Beyond him finding the body but you know he's he's a he's a
01:05:48
decent suspect one thing a lot of people point to is the DNA that was on Hay shoes the problem with that is it's
01:05:53
touch DNA on her shoes in the back of her car and as far as we know it's not connected to anyone obviously if one day
01:06:00
you could say Hey you know advances in technology we were able to show that this DNA is Alonzo
01:06:08
sellers that would be a pretty powerful piece of evidence and I think at that point you have to start really looking
01:06:12
at what in the world's going on because remember in order for anyone else to have done
01:06:18
it there there has to be that massive conspiracy the one we talked about all of a sudden this that seems so incred
01:06:25
it's impossible to believe that anybody would do this all of a sudden it becomes
01:06:29
more likely now the way you get around that we talk about this some we talk about this a lot on the episodes is if
01:06:37
somehow Jay is involved you know if Jay is your main suspect a lot of the conspiracy stuff Falls away you no
01:06:43
longer have to believe that the police are coaching him and the police took him to the car it could all just be because
01:06:49
Jay was involved problems with Jay Jay has the same problems as a lot of people there's no apparent motive and because
01:06:56
Adon puts himself with Jay pretty much the entire day it's hard to even imagine how Jay could have done it and Adon not
01:07:05
been involved so you know there's no huge red flag sticking out to me I think and and Alice and I talk about this
01:07:12
sometimes look at a case based on the evidence you have if one day there's more evidence that's when you start to
01:07:18
reevaluate it but given what we have now I think you have a really strong case that adon's involved
01:07:24
in very weak cases against most of the other people that you think of as being possible suspects yeah and you you know
01:07:31
I think I think that's what's really hard about this case is Adon to me is a very likable person and I I find no no
01:07:38
joy at all that we conclude that the evidence absolutely points to Adon being guilty I don't want this honor student
01:07:45
who by all accounts is going was going to be a very productive member of society to be a murderer to be a
01:07:52
murderer who you know is shut away and no longer able to contribute to society I think this is a trag a tragedy not
01:07:58
only for hymon Lee but also for Adnan and what he could have become as well but like Brett said so too often we see
01:08:07
cases where people who seem like they couldn't do horrendous things are not only capable um but they do do it and it
01:08:15
it often happens to be the person who looks to have um you know their act together to have no uh no proclivities
01:08:23
to do criminal element but we we see that enough to know that we can't just buy into what a book looks on on its
01:08:30
cover and so as much as I don't want Adnan to be guilty I can't ignore the evidence that seems so clear here and
01:08:37
there wasn't a piece of evidence that thought that I thought man I don't know th this could this could be the bit that
01:08:44
um makes him Innocent but I'm just going to ignore it there really was none of that and remember it's a game of not
01:08:51
just it's not just making sure the evidence fits adnan's conviction but rather if not Adnan who else and in this
01:08:59
case every single viable suspect truly Falls away when you take a hard look at the evidence and the only the only one
01:09:07
that it really points to when you look at the evidence is Adnan whether you start there or not that and the evidence
01:09:14
absolutely led me to his guilt I do want to say this it's only a tragedy for what
01:09:20
Adnan could have become if he is innocent um if he did do this and he got caught got convicted what he would have
01:09:29
become is very likely an abuser or he would have impulsively killed somebody else at some point um so I do want to be
01:09:37
clear about that in my feelings anyway but the but you're you're absolutely right Alice that the evidence to me when
01:09:46
you review the totality of it it suggests that portions of Jay's story are are truthful and then if you were to take
01:09:58
that bit of knowledge then you have to go okay well if parts of his story are the
01:10:04
truth then you're only left with really three conclusions in my opinion when you
01:10:10
start talking about other other parties and if you know if the this unknown person did it or if uh Dawn did it very
01:10:20
quickly they become problems there there's clear problems with those other suspects because of the evidence the
01:10:27
evidence suggests that some of Jay's story is correct and so that means three possibilities to me Jay did it Adon did
01:10:35
it or the two of them did it together I think that's right I me I don't I don't know how you get past that and we talk
01:10:43
about the cell phone pings and and once again what's helpful and what's not helpful and if you if you believe I mean
01:10:50
look there's a tight timeline here and the fact that there's a tight timeline it helps Adon on the one hand because he
01:10:57
can say and he says this in serial and in the prosecution in my view and their opening statement and I think in their
01:11:03
closing as well made a mistake saying that the 236 call was the she's dead come get me call because that made the
01:11:11
timeline even Tighter and there's no there's no reason to think that's true Jay doesn't say that Jay doesn't testify
01:11:17
to that and there are other phone calls that make more sense but if you put that
01:11:23
aside for a second put the 236 phone call aside for a second you have a situation where we know Jay has the cell
01:11:30
phone in the hour around when hey would have had to have gone missing and he's making calls and he's taking calls and
01:11:38
all those calls are pinging away from the high school so if he's not near the high school where hey is and he's
01:11:47
actually south of the high school and hey eventually is going to make her way north of the high school to pick up her
01:11:52
cousin where is the opportunity assume for a second that you know well it doesn't matter I guess
01:11:59
whether adon's doing it but where is the opportunity for Jay to have been involved in the actual kidnapping and
01:12:05
murder of hay because his cell phone and by his I mean Adon doesn't start to move towards the Best Buy until
01:12:15
more like 3:15 at which point she's definitely been grabbed that's when it starts
01:12:21
moving towards the Best Buy then it's at the best by for a little while then it starts moving towards woodlon and we
01:12:28
know that Adon has or at least Jay says and not only Jay JY says in her first statement to the
01:12:35
police she says Adon told Jay he had to go to some practice of some sort she wasn't even sure what kind she just knew
01:12:41
that he was supposed to go to some practice so he could be seen so he'd have an alibi and what do you see you
01:12:46
see the cell phone start moving north towards the high school according to the track coach who testified at trial he
01:12:52
testified at trial that track started around 4:00 Jay's making phone calls at 3:48 next to Wood high school so exactly
01:13:00
where he'd need to be to be dropping off Adon so he can go to track practice you're looking at that stuff and it's
01:13:06
like how is it possible for Jay to have done this by [Applause] [Music] himself join us back here in the garage
01:13:23
to tomorrow for the conclusion of our interview with Brett and Alice of the prosecutors podcast until then be good
01:13:31
be kind and don't [Music] litter [Music] in tresto suku tril volaran tablets is the number one heart failure brand
01:14:15
prescribed by cardiologists and has helped over 1 million people with heart failure it's a prescription medicine
01:14:21
that treats adults with longlasting chronic heart failure and works better when the heart cannot pump a normal
01:14:26
amount of blood to the body don't take in tresto if pregnant it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby don't take in
01:14:32
tresto with an Ace inhibitor or Alice Kieran or if you've had angio edema with an ace or ARB don't take with Alice
01:14:38
Kieran or within 36 hours of taking an Ace inhibitor the most serious side effects are angioedema low blood
01:14:44
pressure kidney problems or high blood potassium angioedema is swelling of your face lips tongue and throat that may
01:14:50
cause death if it causes difficulty breathing get emergency ask your doctor about Ino to learn more
01:14:56
visit support. ino.com or call 83344 6699 for pricing visit ino.com cost if you can't afford your medication
01:15:08
novaris may be able to help