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Play and start hearing the soundtrack to your life nah [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
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need more True Crime garage for your earballs and you know you do we just dove into the updates of the Amy Hooper
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00:03:32
enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
00:03:40
[Music] outside as the night grows colder police and volunteers coordinate the search
00:04:07
inside Amber's mother Waits I still can't believe it just just waiting for her to come in the
00:04:13
door any minute now but she's gone witson says Amber and her little brother Richard were out
00:04:21
riding their bikes in the neighborhood when a witness saw a man grab Amber off her bike and shove her Kicking and
00:04:27
Screaming into his black pickup truck don't hurt her don't hurt my baby please she's just an innocent child
00:04:37
please please bring her home s please if anybody out there seen anything call the please tell them let
00:04:46
them know I really don't know what I'm thinking now I'm just I just want to touch her and hold her now and to me I
00:04:55
think she's still out riding her bike but I know better I know she's not this is a family channel 8 has been
00:05:02
working with since last fall on a story about welfare reform Channel 8 was there
00:05:07
at Amber's 9th birthday party in November witson says Amber loves school she's a third grade honors student with
00:05:14
perfect attendance a Girl Scout who just sold 165 boxes of cookies oh we're real
00:05:20
close we're buddies we share everything we share hair bows together she's wearing my hair bow right now on her
00:05:25
little hair she's got her hair up with sure everything together we do everything together witson says before
00:05:34
the kidnapping they had a great day just playing at the park eating lunch together and stopping by to visit the
00:05:39
grandparents before the nightmare began just Amber you know if I want you back home I want you here with Mommy I know
00:05:48
you're scared and I'm scared too I'm scared for you and I want you home so I want
00:05:57
you Jimmy kev's backyard looks out on the Wind Dixie parking lot he saw Amber hagerman's abduction Saturday afternoon
00:06:04
keville says Amber was on her bike when a black pickup pulled up next to her and
00:06:09
he run up behind her and grabbed her right under her arms and picked her up he turned around and come right back to
00:06:15
here where his truck was where the door was open and put her in the truck while police and volunteers continue to search
00:06:22
Amber's Family holds on to Hope sit and white look out the window and wish we could see her walking up the
00:06:32
dway there's a lot of people praying family friends and I thank God for them an Arlington police officer remains
00:06:42
on the street where Amber hagerman's family Waits a collection of Flyers used in the search papers the front entry at
00:06:48
Amber's grandmother's house still there's no word earlier investigators questioned
00:06:55
the only witness again and he'd run up behind her and grabbed her around under her arms and picked her up he turned
00:07:02
around and come right back to here where his truck was where the door was open and put her in the truck while police
00:07:08
and volunteers continue to search Amber's Family holds on to Hope sit and wait look out the window
00:07:17
and wish we could see her walking up the dway there's a lot of people praying family friends and I thank God for them
00:07:28
Amber her little brother Richard and mother Donna witson are one of the families being profiled for a family
00:07:33
first special project about welfare Amber is an honor student at CB berry Elementary the school's principal was
00:07:40
among the first visitors Flyers with Amber hagman's picture are going up all over Arlington
00:07:48
friends and neighbors of the Hagerman family say they only wish they could do more we're more upset because there's
00:07:55
nothing we can do nobody knows anything that's the thing we can't do anything you don't know where to look Amber's
00:08:01
disappearance has hit home perhaps too close to home for parents in this quiet neighborhood Arlington police officers
00:08:07
are here 24 hours a day it's real scary my kids were down there in that same parking lot riding their bikes Saturday
00:08:13
morning and that could have been my kid Amber her little brother Richard and mother Donna Whitson are one of the
00:08:20
families Channel 8 has been profiling for a family first special on welfare reform Amber is a third grade honor
00:08:27
student and Girl Scout who just sold 165 boxes of cookies witson and Amber's Father Richard Hagerman say there will
00:08:35
be no relief from the terror they now live with until Amber is home I want my baby back so please if you have my baby
00:08:43
please I beg you let me have her back she's my life [Music] let's go back in time Captain to
00:09:06
1986 when proud excited parents welcomed little Amber Renee Hagerman into the world just two days before
00:09:15
Thanksgiving 1986 Amber's mom and dad are Donna witson and Richard Hagerman Amber was a
00:09:24
Girl Scout and a rather social little girl who loved riding her bike Amber had one sibling a little brother named Ricky
00:09:32
and she just loved being a big sister so much so that when little Ricky was very
00:09:37
small still just a little tiny baby Amber told her mother Donna that this is my baby and I'm going to take care of
00:09:45
him Amber was raised in the greater Arlington Texas area many of you may be familiar with Arlington this is a large
00:09:54
Texas town famous for the home of what the locals called the Death Star the is AT&T Stadium where them Cowboys play
00:10:03
where Jerry's Cowboys play football in near the Dallas and Fort Worth area as well this is all kind of one big batch
00:10:12
of cities all kind of resting next to one another Arlington and especially the neighborhood that we will be talking
00:10:20
about and specific area that we will be talking about here today are and were even back in 1996
00:10:29
when our True Crime Story takes place this was a safe area low crime especially low violent crime we will get
00:10:37
back to 1996 soon but first let's go through a little background information regarding the Hagerman family at some
00:10:44
point the parents Donna and Richard's relationship changes and this is because Richard develops a drinking problem that
00:10:53
will lead to accusations of domestic abuse Donna has said that Richard became V towards her on some of the nights when
00:11:02
he would come home drunk Donna eventually leaves Richard taking the kids after neighbors had called the
00:11:10
police on what sounds like Captain many occasions so Donna took off to start over without Richard in fact Richard
00:11:19
would not be much in any way part of the kids lives for about a year's time Donna
00:11:26
didn't feel safe around him of course he needed to make some big changes in his life and his actions before he could see
00:11:35
and be involved with these children again once he started making progress Donna would allow Richard to visit the
00:11:42
kids mostly on weekends when he would show up with pizza and snacks for the two little ones so let's go to
00:11:49
1995 this is when we have Donna she's living with the two kids raising them primarily by herself and it's a struggle
00:11:58
she met Richard when she was young she got pregnant when she was young and I don't have their exact ages here in my
00:12:05
notes Captain but if I recall correctly I believe Richard is about 14 maybe 15 years older than Donna yeah there's a
00:12:12
little bit of an age Gap there so she's got two kids she's on government assistance and she's not taking child
00:12:20
support as per the history with Richard because she doesn't want to be forced into a shared custody situation
00:12:29
but Donna is tough as Nails as tough as they come she's raising the kids she's working and she's going to school all at
00:12:38
the same time to set herself up with a career in nursing to try to better her situation not for her but for her
00:12:47
children before Amber's disappearance Amber's Family was part of a TV production about families struggling to
00:12:57
get off of welfare now because of this there is a lot of video footage of Amber Hagerman
00:13:05
available still to this day now to me Captain that is very much the definition of a Bittersweet moment it's so precious
00:13:16
and saddening all at the same time to see these images and not just images but motion picture of a very happy little
00:13:25
girl playing with friends celebrating a birthday riding bik with her little brother because those moments captured
00:13:32
on video camera are lasting forever and you get to hear her talking laughing just being a kid so while you want to
00:13:40
have those keepsakes to remember her remember the good times it's a double-edged sword because it makes your
00:13:49
heart feel so good but at the same time can also break it all right let's get into the day in question here we're
00:13:57
going to go to Saturday January 13th 1996 remember sometimes dates are important to any crime not just the date
00:14:09
but the day of the week and where that date falls on the calendar for that year and we may see why with this particular
00:14:18
case again this is Saturday January 13th 1996 Saturdays were typically Family Day
00:14:28
for Amber mom and brother Donna witson and her children Amber and Ricky drove to a home
00:14:36
in Arlington Texas to visit Donna's parents Glenda and Jimmy witson this was a typical situation they they visited
00:14:44
this house often so the kids felt very comfortable playing inside the house outside the house and riding their bikes
00:14:51
in the neighborhood exactly now before going to Donna's parents house and like the captain said this would be a typical
00:14:58
stop for them they had some other stops earlier in the day so fun stop number one for the day the family of three
00:15:05
spent some time playing at a local park this is a park where they had played at several times
00:15:11
before then the three went off to have some lunch at a Burger King restaurant this was a family favorite and then next
00:15:20
up was fun spot number three for a little bike riding action so the three went to Donna's parents home again this
00:15:29
is Jimmy and Glenda witson Donna is very close with her parents Amber and Ricky the little grandkids were close with
00:15:37
their grandparents as well Jimmy and Glenda lived in one of those cool old school neighborhoods probably one very
00:15:44
similar and familiar to what many of our listeners can relate to those children of the
00:15:53
90s this is one of those very Suburban neighborhoods standard size Lots probably about 4500 square ft single
00:16:03
family homes a lot of homes built in what looks like probably the 60s late 60s and I love those type of
00:16:11
neighborhoods captain that have folks that some are still original home buyer still there three or four decades later
00:16:19
this is the type of neighborhood where you have streets that only see local traffic right see traffic from people
00:16:27
that live in the neighborhood coming and going it wasn't really a pass through neighborhood it was like you're only
00:16:34
driving down those roads if you you live in that area or you're visiting that area yeah it's just it's a part of a
00:16:42
busy area let's say with businesses and whatnot but it's kind of like tucked off
00:16:47
to the side right where you venture into this neighborhood primarily only for the
00:16:53
purpose because you live there the two children had their bikes stored and at Grandma and Grandpa's house and they
00:17:01
love to ride them while they were at GS and GPA it was a sunny day on that Saturday the temperature was just above
00:17:10
70 de so weather is quite fantastic yeah especially for January now we have Amber
00:17:18
who is 9 years old at the time and her little brother is five the two youngsters asked to ride
00:17:25
their bikes in the neighborhood and like the captain said this was a very common
00:17:32
activity for them the way that this would play out is they were allowed to take these short
00:17:42
unsupervised bike rides but they're very quick right it was go down you pull out
00:17:47
of Grandma and Grandpa's driveway and you make a left or a right but you go down about half a block turn
00:17:56
onto another Street and then turn onto another Street and then you turn right back onto Grandma
00:18:03
and Grandpa Street yeah basically they're going in a circle on very like you said they're going in a circle on
00:18:11
streets that aren't that busy they knew with streets that they could turn down and which streets they they couldn't go
00:18:16
on and I also think it was probably a situation that the that the mother and the grandparents probably weren't just
00:18:23
sitting outside they're probably going in and out of the house because like you said it's a safe neighborhood it's a
00:18:29
safe time they weren't worried that something bad was going to happen and it wasn't their first rodeo you know
00:18:35
they've gone on the spike ride many times and like you said mom and her mother would sit outside watch the kids
00:18:42
go by wave to them when they make their when they pass through again and they would take this little route it's it's
00:18:49
very much a a quick Circle route but if you look at it on a map it it looks more
00:18:54
like a triangle but it's all these quick little short neighborhood streets there's no businesses on these streets
00:19:04
it's all homes that look like their grandparents houses and for my understanding too another common thing
00:19:10
that would take place was Grandpa Jimmy he's a busy guy likes to stay busy and he would often be outside working in the
00:19:19
yard or in the garage working on something so he is for about a third of this bike trip
00:19:28
pretty much within an earshot of these kids and you we've all been there right whether be it with with our short pants
00:19:36
on as kids ourselves or with our big boy pants on as parents where you take the kids out you show them the route you
00:19:44
ride with them the first few times that they are on this route so they know where they're allowed to go you know
00:19:50
that they feel safe and you know that they know the lay of the land and then after they've done this for several
00:19:56
weeks or several times themselves it's time for them to go off on their own and and do the
00:20:03
adventure on their own well I think the family felt more safe too because Amber's 9 years old so she's also
00:20:11
looking after her little brother she's big sister and like we said earlier she even that's her baby she was very
00:20:19
protective of her little brother Ricky with adult permission Amber and Ricky left the home that afternoon and as said
00:20:28
they were allowed to ride their bikes around the block only they were not to go further than that despite that
00:20:35
warning look little kids don't always listen to Mom and Dad that's that's been going on since little kids have existed
00:20:44
so despite that warning Ricky and Amber chose to ride their bikes to a parking lot of an abandoned grocery store now
00:20:52
this is still very close to their grandparents home it's actually less than3 mil miles or two blocks roughly
00:21:01
from the grandparents house yeah not far from the grandparents house but it's very close to the path that they're
00:21:08
allowed to be on the parking lot that they arrive at has a ramp that most certainly received detention from Amber
00:21:16
and probably her brother as well the lot was surrounded by some residential homes
00:21:22
on one side and also included some other businesses in the same parking lot lot so you have a a grocery store that has
00:21:31
since shut down been shut down and empty for some time now I believe it was a wind Dixie but you also have a laundry
00:21:39
mat and an auto tint shop in the same parking lot this is very common in Suburban America on the main streets you
00:21:50
have a strip of businesses and behind those businesses you have these small neighborhoods yeah and I'll try I'll do
00:21:56
my best to try to describe this there was a really great diagram that was put out by the Fort Worth Star Telegram
00:22:03
we'll go ahead and give a little background because it gives one of those at a glance captions which reads Amber
00:22:10
Hagerman was riding her bicycle in the parking lot of a vacant East Arlington grocery store on a Saturday afternoon
00:22:19
when she was abducted by a man this diagram here Captain what it's showing us is the parking lot in Rel relation to
00:22:30
the grandparents' home and so to describe this from south to North we have East Abram Street which
00:22:41
has been described to us as a rather busy street now to the east of Abram Street you have Browning and then north
00:22:51
of that you have Highland Street so off of Highland is where you have residential homes the these are homes
00:22:59
that are part of that neighborhood that Amber's grandparents live in and some of
00:23:04
these houses back up to this parking lot and these businesses that are in this parking lot so you can see how close
00:23:16
this is to their home it's actually very close to the path that they would be normally taking on their bike ride that
00:23:24
is allowed by their mom and grandparents yeah so you have this old wind Dixie that's shut down and you have the
00:23:31
loading docks and those loading docks basically are built in ramps now Amber and her brother weren't going to go up
00:23:40
these ramps and do uh jumps and back flips but they would ride up the ramp and ride down the ramp and I'm sure this
00:23:49
is a area that they would have been allowed to go in if they're on a bike ride with their grandparents or or one
00:23:55
of their parents was there yeah because it looks to me based off of this map captain that they only ventured off
00:24:01
about two blocks away from their normal path so yeah had they been accompanied by an adult and said we really want to
00:24:08
go over here and check this out or see what's going on over here they probably would have been able to do so and would
00:24:15
have been able to do so rather quickly in this parking lot it it's pretty large and you have it an entrance and an exit
00:24:24
both on Abram Street and Browning Street to the West of the grocery store you have a laundry mat now this laundry mat
00:24:33
is active it's it's open it's actually open for business on this very day on this afternoon and there are cars parked
00:24:41
there at the time so we know that people are in this laundry mat and they are washing their clothes and whatnot inside
00:24:50
the facility but one thing that's terrible is this the one side of the building the east side of the building
00:24:59
that faces where we believe Amber was when she was abducted that one side of the building
00:25:06
has no windows then just south of the laundry mat in the same parking lot you have an auto body tent shop where the
00:25:15
back of that building would be facing the approximate area where the little girl would be abducted from yeah which
00:25:24
obviously this is not going to when you build a grocery store you don't put the loading dock for for everybody in the
00:25:31
public to see the loading dock we're going to get an eyewitness from the neighborhood but to hear her brother
00:25:39
describe what happened basically we're we're going on the route we're riding our bikes for a while we're doing what
00:25:46
we normally do and then we decide hey we're going to we're going to fear off the path we're going to go down to the
00:25:53
old abandoned grocery store we're going to go up and down the ramp a few times and this has probably happened hundreds
00:26:02
maybe thousands of times when you're a kid you're somewhere that maybe you shouldn't be or you're gone a little bit
00:26:08
too long and then you then the group decides okay we got to get back so they head back and to hear her brother talk
00:26:16
about well yeah I'm I'm riding back home and I'm just assuming she's behind me and like you said it's less than 3 miles
00:26:26
away so by the time he gets back in in the vicinity of his grandparents house he's now turning around looking going
00:26:35
where's my sister yeah and we'll get into all of the details of what we know about the abduction about the witness
00:26:44
and the particulars but the terrifying thing here that is just so difficult to wrap my head around is that all of this
00:26:54
takes place in just an 8 minute time time period yeah it reminds me of like the mara Murray case she's seen by an
00:27:03
individual that individual goes into his house calls the police by the time the police show up Mar's gone and and just
00:27:11
like I said when you have a situation where you're riding bikes with your sister you head back home and now
00:27:19
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air if you haven't subscribed to us on YouTube Make sure you do so I've been adding some of the old off the Record
00:33:16
episodes the one we did was the title is Ted Bundy Invisible Man John Douglas and
00:33:25
if that doesn't make you want to listen to it I don't know what will cheers to you Colonel cheers to you Captain as
00:33:31
well I'm going to take a few paragraphs here because I think it's very well described from a Reddit poster who goes
00:33:42
by the name of quy motor who did an extensive writeup on this case about four years ago about the Abduction of
00:33:52
Amber Hagerman this write Up's very good and the particulars here again we have such a short window of
00:34:01
time that it it really makes this case very difficult for investigators to work but I I do think that there is a
00:34:11
lot here when you start to sift through it at least potential leads or ideas about where to
00:34:20
take your investigation so quirky motor writes that Ricky little brother Ricky made one loop around the parking lot and
00:34:30
tells his sister Amber that they needed to go home Ricky says he didn't want to get in trouble he knows that they're
00:34:39
somewhere that they should not be and instead of following her brother Amber said that she wanted to stay and ride
00:34:47
around some more reluctantly Ricky heads home by himself now once there Amber's grandparents ask the little boy wears
00:34:59
[ __ ] the family called Amber [ __ ] and Ricky said she was riding her bike still
00:35:07
and they told him you know what go back out and get your sister so Ricky returned to the parking
00:35:13
lot he later says that he found the lot empty meaning he didn't find his sister when he returned there the route from
00:35:21
this parking lot Captain back to the parents' home even at 5 years of age he's probably able to figure out that well if
00:35:33
she left to come home she would have passed me we would have crossed paths I would
00:35:42
have never made it to the parking lot to to tell her to come home well I think there was a loop that they they wrote in
00:35:50
so I think there is a possibility but but as you're coming out of the neighborhood onto that grocery
00:35:58
store like be way before you get to the grocery store he's going to be able to see that his sister's not on the
00:36:05
ramp but like you said the one way back home or the fastest way back home she would have passed him she didn't pass
00:36:13
him and there's probably nothing worse in this poor little kid's brain at the time hey go get your sister I have
00:36:23
to know now go back to the place that we're not supposed to go to and then when I get there she's not
00:36:30
there so maybe there's a little bit of Hope well once I get back to Grandpa's house she'll be there but obviously she
00:36:37
wasn't well he sees the lot empty he doesn't see his sister he turns around starts pedaling as fast as he possibly
00:36:44
could and as he gets close to Grandma and Grandpa's house he starts yelling that Sissy's gone Sissy's gone well
00:36:53
Grandpa Jimmy witson he hears his grandson saying this he grabs the grandson hops in his truck and they
00:37:03
speed off to the parking lot and this is where things go from concerned to terrified because
00:37:12
they they Grandpa and Grandson they find little Amber's bike just lying there on
00:37:19
the ground and why don't you say that he's more he's more of a father figure than he is a grandpa I I say you know
00:37:27
those lines get blurry at times especially with certain families and he's very active he's probably more
00:37:33
active than some grandfathers and they live close by and as you pointed out earlier going to Grandma and Grandpa's
00:37:42
house on a Saturday which was their family day was yeah common place so he's you know he's hanging out with the kids
00:37:49
a lot so peacock did another great True Crime documentary on this case they've been hidden in out of the park lately in
00:37:59
my opinion yeah and they're they they make these documentaries that are the appropriate length I think too
00:38:09
where they're easily consumable easily digestible but they they pack a lot of information and
00:38:15
details into the documentaries I believe this one comes in at about 90 minutes approximately and it's titled Amber the
00:38:24
girl behind the alert and in that documentary you get to see a lot of video footage of Amber's
00:38:34
mom Donna she's pretty much the centerpiece of the documentary but you see Amber's Father Richard and you see a
00:38:43
lot of video footage of the grandparents and my thoughts here Captain when they showed Grandpa
00:38:51
Jimmy he just looked like mystified right like that he showed up to the parking lot and it and just the
00:38:59
like the shock never left his face in his body of I got to the parking lot and all I saw was her bike there it's just
00:39:07
it's just the little girl's pink bike and he had no answers for it there are multiple reports out there it seems like
00:39:14
the majority of the reports state that the at least one police officer was already on the scene in the parking lot
00:39:23
when when the grandfather returned with the little boy but just to be on the safe side we'll go through both here so
00:39:30
some some reports have that police were already there when little Ricky returned
00:39:35
with his grandfather and others have them pulling in just afterward after the Grandpa's truck pulls in to the line
00:39:42
it'd be really hard to put yourself in the in the shoes of the grandfather or of the brother cuz he's in the truck as
00:39:48
well he goes to get his sister she's not there but I don't think he noticed the bike until he notices the bike with the
00:39:56
grandfather but very difficult to try to put yourself in either one of their shoes of this is a
00:40:02
oh [ __ ] moment regardless of who was there first police are on the scene so very quickly because when Ricky first
00:40:11
left the lot a man named Jim keville so he's a 78y old man he's working in his backyard remember we talked about some
00:40:20
of those residential houses from that neighborhood that back up to this parking lot he's out in one of the those
00:40:27
backyards his backyard working when he said that he saw a young girl riding a colorful bicycle up and down the ramp
00:40:34
when suddenly a black or dark blue pickup truck drove up to the little girl he says a man hopped out from the truck
00:40:42
and with one Fell Swoop grabbed Amber and forced her into his truck she tried to kick and let out one
00:40:53
loud scream the truck left the parking lot and turned West on East Abram Street Jim keville immediately called
00:41:02
the police who were on the scene un Less Than 3 minutes time the officers found no sign of Amber except for her
00:41:12
abandoned bike it's not that big of a city so you got Patrol officers probably on that main road so they they respond
00:41:21
as quick as possible I mean a thre minute turnaround time you can't blame the police for that that one but could
00:41:28
you even imagine seeing what he saw it probably took him longer than the action that he saw it probably took him a
00:41:36
little bit of time to gather his thoughts on what did I just see did I see somebody kidnap a girl or or was
00:41:43
this her parents retrieving her from the time Amber and Ricky left their grandparents home to ride bikes to the
00:41:51
time that the neighbor Jim keville called police is approximately 8 minutes minutes that had elapsed 8 minutes time
00:42:00
that's it that is how quick all of this went down this here is some very detailed information so I say listen
00:42:10
closely so this is from WFT v9 and it states a 78-year-old man who lived down the street witnessed a terrible sight
00:42:20
through the chain link fence that separated his backyard from the rear of this article refers to it as a strip
00:42:29
mall I wouldn't call it a strip mall it looks like three businesses in a large parking lot to me where the store was
00:42:35
located the witness Jimmy keville told CBS Dallas Fort Worth about the experience in
00:42:42
2016 he says quote I saw Amber riding up and down we should note here keville passed away months after this interview
00:42:52
but he goes on to say she was by herself I saw this black pickup he pulled up jumped out and grabbed her
00:43:01
when she screamed I figured the police ought to know about this so I called them he says Amber also tried to kick
00:43:08
the man as he forced her into the truck keville is a US Navy veteran and former sheriff's deputy he told police that as
00:43:18
he hurried into his house to call 911 he saw the kidnapper pull out of the parking lot and head West on Abram
00:43:26
Street he described Amber's abductor as a white or Hispanic man in his 20s or 30s under 6 feet tall with a
00:43:38
medium build and brown or black hair his truck was a single cab pickup it was in
00:43:47
good condition and was solid black with no Chrome or striping police have said that the truck was believed to be a
00:43:55
1980s or 1990s full-sized Fleet side pickup with a short wheel base and a non-sliding clear
00:44:04
rear window but this is Arlington Texas my friend and to find a black pickup truck in Arlington Texas that's like
00:44:13
finding a needle on a hay stack yeah there's a lot of pickup trucks in Texas the what's great here though from a
00:44:21
investigator standpoint is your witness you would hope they had more witnesses right like
00:44:29
said there were people that were at the laundry mat I believe there were people working or even potential customers at
00:44:36
the auto tint shop as well but those people didn't see anything you would hope for more witnesses you would hope
00:44:45
for somebody to have some kind of plate number or a partial plate for you and unfortunately we didn't get that with
00:44:54
Amber's case but the one thing that you do have is your your witness is a one-time police Deputy or sorry
00:45:04
sheriff's deputy so this is a man who at some point has been trained to very quickly observe and take in as
00:45:15
much information and observations of a situation and a person and a a suspect as he can very quickly well what
00:45:24
it makes you wonder though too do is there I know for a long time in Ohio both on
00:45:31
the car you had to have a a front license plate and a back license plate so I wonder in 1996 if that was a law in
00:45:40
Texas or did they only have to have a back plate and it seems to me and I could be wrong but it seems to
00:45:48
me as he's seeing this individual he's almost seeing the truck forward facing or do you think he's seeing it
00:45:57
from behind I I actually think he's seeing it from the side and and look right you know we see a reenactment in
00:46:04
the documentary there's also a dramatization movie about this case that came out many years ago that I'm sure
00:46:12
gives a a slightly different version of the Abduction the the Fort Worth Star Telegram diagram that I referred to
00:46:22
earlier that lays out all the streets and kev's home in relation to where the abduction took place he so his home
00:46:33
pretty much backs up to the his backyard backs up to the laundry mat you know there's there is some distance between
00:46:41
his chain link fence and the laundry mat but I I'm not going to lie to you man when when I first looked at this
00:46:48
situation I was a little suspicious of this old man I didn't know his background right prior to but the reason
00:46:56
why I was supicious was something that you're kind of honing in on here with with the him not seeing the plate
00:47:03
because in his one description he says that her feet didn't touch the ground meaning the abductor picked her up and
00:47:13
carried her she lets out the scream and carries her and forces her into the truck and hit one of his statements to
00:47:21
police is her feet did not touch the ground and I thought if he's in his f backyard how the hell did he see that
00:47:30
low to the ground from his vantage point so I was I'm always suspicious when somebody tells part of a story that just
00:47:37
cannot be or doesn't make sense but then I quickly learn that he has a chain link
00:47:43
fence so he's he's not obstructed his view is not obstructed by his fence it's troubling that he can see
00:47:51
that low to the ground from his vantage point and not see the license plate which would be approximately about the
00:47:58
same height off of the ground that I would expect her her feet to be as the abductors carrying her to the truck but
00:48:05
in this description that is put together with the newspaper here Captain it appears that the truck pulled in at
00:48:14
haste pulls in and and turns into this space that is big enough plenty big enough for his truck to fit between the
00:48:24
laundry mat and the old wind Dixie and that the way that he would have pulled in there naturally would
00:48:32
have given only a side view of the truck now one thing that could have potentially partially obstructed this
00:48:41
eyewitness's view would be the laundry mat itself because how it's positioned from the back of his his lot so
00:48:50
unfortunately our man here doesn't see the plate which would have been of course it's helpful in any case but as
00:48:57
the captain points out there's going to be a lot of trucks and probably a lot of
00:49:01
similar trucks to this one in this area at the time now one thing that they point out
00:49:08
in the documentary that we wouldn't have any ability to know because we're not from this area I'm I've actually been to
00:49:17
Arlington before it it is a great City and if you're ever there I recommend you go to a place called Texas live you will
00:49:25
have a a Fant fantastic time make sure you bring your credit card because you're going to melt it while you're
00:49:32
there but um they they tell us in the documentary that the direction that the witness states that the truck went after
00:49:42
taking the girl would be to be heading back into the busy part of the city which
00:49:50
could be telling it it could be telling it all it also could be nothing the reason why that's important is
00:49:57
she's going to be taken somewhere where the hell did this guy take her they do point out too that somebody could have
00:50:03
taken that same route to try to get to I think it's I35 Interstate 35 that is near there and you would take that
00:50:12
direction to get to that interstate so this detail from the eyewitness lends itself to two things either this person
00:50:21
wanted or needed to go back into the city for some reason because he lives there or plan to take her
00:50:30
somewhere or wanted to get to the interstate to get out of there because like you said this main road just
00:50:39
picture on both sides of this Main Road him this the kidnapper is heading back into the city if you will small City but
00:50:49
on both sides of the road you're going to have businesses but behind those businesses are neighborhoods so there
00:50:56
was also some speculation that maybe he lived in one of these neighborhoods and that he went back on the main road to
00:51:04
turn into a different neighborhood and I think some people are probably questioning what I'm trying to
00:51:10
lay out here and I don't know that I've done a great job of laying it out but because I'm saying two things he could
00:51:16
take him be he could be taking her that direction because he needs to go back into the city for some reason or because
00:51:22
he's trying to get to the interstate which are two different thoughts but what the documentary the
00:51:30
people on the documentary I believe are trying to point out is the problem with going back into the city is now you have
00:51:40
abducted this little girl you have something in your vehicle that you do not want to be seen with right and
00:51:46
you're going to be passing a lot of other motorists passing a lot of other cars and even people walking on
00:51:54
sidewalks you have the potential to be spotted by a lot of more eyewitnesses and and frankly the police said and
00:52:04
detective said the direction that we are told that he went if he didn't want to be seen or or was really worried about
00:52:11
being seen he would have simply taken one of the other streets and got out of town very quickly to unpopulated areas
00:52:21
they they were disappointed that there was no other eyewitness not just from the laundry mat or from the other
00:52:27
business in the lot but from the route that they believe that the abductor took with Amber in his pickup but I think if
00:52:34
you're in law enforcement you have to say there is no action that the kidnapper took to let us
00:52:43
to lead us to believe that he knew the city or didn't know the city that's just there's no evidence to speculate I
00:52:52
think one way or the other is kind of what you're saying no I I wouldn't say that I what I'm saying is that if the
00:53:00
route that he took that he chose to take in that moment whether it be planned or panicked or what have you
00:53:09
right he chose to take that route and I think he chose to take that route and I think that the investigators are
00:53:16
thinking this and not so much saying it out loud but he chose to take that route
00:53:22
because it was necessary for him for some reason meaning if he simply wanted to detect or
00:53:31
avoid being detected or getting pulled over with this kid in his car he would have taken any other route
00:53:40
but he took this route taking him back to where the most populated portion of the city would be right but what I'm
00:53:47
saying what I'm saying is there's no clear indication of was he heading to another neighborhood within this town or
00:53:55
was he heading in to a direction to to get out of town because essentially those are the same direction exactly but
00:54:03
what I'm pointing out is that the need could be the same for either but regardless of what he was doing in that
00:54:11
moment there was a need for him to go in that direction when you talk about Captain does this guy does the abductor
00:54:20
know the city doesn't know the city it gets tough to say I I'm under the belief that he knows the city and we'll get
00:54:26
into that here with more details about this case in a minute what did the abductor know and what he didn't
00:54:34
know I think is key to get into here briefly and touch on it here briefly because I was quite surprised that some
00:54:43
of the early speculation in this case by people that news outlets were talking to
00:54:50
back in 1996 well this abductor must have been somebody that was had some kind of
00:54:57
relationship knew Amber she was familiar with him he I don't know that I would go
00:55:04
as far to say the word grooming but that seemed to be some of the speculation that was being discussed with these news
00:55:13
outlets early on in the investigation now while it's great to keep the story in the papers and keep the story on the
00:55:20
6:00 and the the 10 and 11:00 news that was surprising to me because cuz you saw
00:55:28
the documentary and one thing that the detectives stated in the documentary was based off of our eyewitness's account
00:55:36
yes we have every reason to believe that the abductor probably didn't know Amber
00:55:42
that she didn't know him and that's why she screamed like it like he runs out grabs her forcefully grabs her she kicks
00:55:51
him screams and he forces her into the truck meaning if it was somebody that knew she was familiar with he could have
00:56:00
quietly coaxed her into his truck rather than this I I mean I hate to say it this way but this looks
00:56:09
like a snatch and grab situation he just like truck pulls up sees a victim potential victim alone vulnerable pulls
00:56:20
up comes to a screeching stop hops out of the truck and as fast as he can grabs this little girl and boom he's back in
00:56:29
his truck and he's getting out onto the street again and I'm glad you bring this
00:56:32
up because when you think about the eyewitness even if he doesn't have a chain link fence if the perpetrator this
00:56:40
kidnapper picks her up and is carrying the kid sideways you would know that her feet didn't hit the ground and so I
00:56:48
think this is a very good point and and it makes zero sense to me why would why they would say well we think that maybe
00:56:56
this kidnapper knows her this is not the action of a person that knows the victim
00:57:02
this is a action of a person that saw an opportunity and kidnapped this girl viciously violently and and quick
00:57:14
there's a quickness here and like you said if you knew her you could hey put your bike in the back of my truck and I
00:57:22
I'll drive you back to your grandpa's house she gets in the truck and you don't take her back to the grandpa's
00:57:28
house or hey Amber it's it's me your buddy Tony or whoever if if she knows you if you've been grooming her she's
00:57:39
not going to have any fear of getting in the truck with you yeah I I believe what
00:57:45
the detectives say I believe what you're saying I agree with all of that because
00:57:49
if one thing we do know when we try to get into the psychology of these cases is that usually when a
00:58:00
perpetrator knows the victim the closer that relationship the greater lengths and
00:58:08
efforts the offender will go to to conceal and hide what they did and cover up what
00:58:19
they did confuse the investigation confuse the detectives that could have you could have added a speed bump into
00:58:27
this whole scenario just by taking the bike but he didn't he took the girl and not the bike can you imagine had our
00:58:37
eyewitness seen the guy come up and grab the girl and grab the bike he might have
00:58:43
just thought oh I don't need to call this in this is not this is a dad is mad at little girl girl doesn't want to go
00:58:52
home girl wants to keep playing kids never want to come home they always want to keep playing he's just taking his kid
00:58:58
and he's taking the bike and he's going home that would have thrown a huge speed
00:59:01
bump into this situation but this guy this abductor in the moment didn't care about any of that
00:59:09
all he cared about was taking the little girl and driving off yeah and also cuz if you take the bike we have no way of
00:59:17
knowing if this kidnapper saw the eyewitness or not but if you take the bike now we don't even know where the
00:59:25
CME scene is if we have no eyewitness her little brother Ricky goes back and says well she was riding up and down on
00:59:35
this ramp and then they go to the ramp and they see no bike they start driving around the
00:59:41
neighborhood see what I'm saying oh exactly they they have to you know they canvas the area anyway talk to all the
00:59:49
neighbors and of anybody that they could speak to anyway but you're exactly right
00:59:53
Captain they they would have a whole different line of questioning talking and canvasing the area because
00:59:58
they would have no idea where the girl went missing from or or that she was abduct this is this is one thing I I
01:00:05
wanted to point out this is one thing that was so very horrific about this particular case to me compared to the
01:00:13
dozens and dozens of cases that we've covered in the past and I'm sure it MIRS some cases in some regard but this is
01:00:20
not a story of a missing kid this is not the story of a missing then later we find out a murdered child this is the
01:00:31
story of every parents's worst nightmare this was an abduction a little 9-year-old girl was taken snatched off
01:00:39
of the streets of Arlington Texas a witness calls Emergency Services sounded the alarm he called because he watched
01:00:48
and knew in the very moment from what his eyeballs were telling him this some man grabbed this little girl from off of
01:00:56
her bike and drives off with her in his truck this is a story and a case where right out of
01:01:05
the gate as soon as the alarm is raised with he's calling he's walking into his home to call
01:01:13
911 while the abduction is still in progress is how quickly this is taking place so this is a rare
01:01:22
scenario where you know immediately this isn't some kid that isn't where she you
01:01:29
know is off where she shouldn't be is in the basement of a friend's house and you
01:01:34
just can't find her and this is not a case where she mysteriously disappears right kid walking home never seen again
01:01:43
kid riding bike never seen again no this is a witness saw the abduction and you know from second one in this case we are
01:01:52
talking about an abduction look abductions of this type are very rare stranger abductions even more rare thank
01:02:00
God but even with how safe this area Arlington Texas was and still is and how rare abductions would be you know that
01:02:12
these police officers and detectives they're hearing this 911 call they're getting they're interviewing the
01:02:20
eyewitness can you imagine they know right away what we're dealing with here this is not a custody battle issue this
01:02:29
is not she went off with somebody that she knows this is a stranger abduction and it's the Abduction of the worst
01:02:40
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