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in 1970 two University students who had recently fallen in love were murdered in
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an apartment in Columbus Ohio their names were Mary Petry and Bill sprock the crime was so brutal it drew
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comparisons to the Manson family murders That Shook the country less than one year earlier police received hundreds of
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tips but within a few months the case went cold now a reporter and the sisters of the two victims worked together
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piecing together new forensic evidence and they are told by Columbus Police this case can still be solved 50 years
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later listen to Mary and Bill an Ohio Cold Case wherever you get your podcast [Music]
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thank you [Music] foreign [Music] garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for listening I'm your host
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Nick and with me as always is a man who has the power to help you believe again here is the captain it's good to see you
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and it's good to be seen thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend [Music]
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this week we are very happy to be featuring day glow Vibes by the hard-working folks over Mast Landing
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Brewing Company this is a double dry hopped double India Pale Ale wow someone really likes to double things up over at
00:02:01
Mast Landing so a ddh double IPA if you will 8.1 percent ABV this one is not boozy at all but it is full bodied and a
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little pungent garage grade three and a half bottle caps out of five and let's give some thanks and praise to our
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friends for helping us with this week's beer fun first up we have Jen Vaughn from Queens New York and also helping us
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fill up the fridge this week we have Jocelyn Dozier in Grapevine Texas everybody we mentioned they went to our
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website and clicked on the Pint glass and that helped us out with this week's beer run and for that we thank you yeah
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bwr you win beer run go to the website store and get you some get you some swag get you some true
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crime garage swag it's a great way to look good feel good and support the show and that's enough of the business
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all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
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[Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]
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Heyman Lee was born in 1980 and after immigrating to the United States with her mother and brother in 1992. she
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spent most of her teen years growing up in Baltimore County Maryland hay was a great student she was
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incredibly smart with many friends and played lacrosse and field hockey hey attended the magnet program at her
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school Woodlawn High School this is where and when she and fellow classmate Adnan Syed really became
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acquainted Adnan is a popular student athlete as well and the two hit it off and started
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dating sometime in early 1998. the relationship becomes pretty serious as far as high school relationship
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standards go the two go to prom together November 1st 1998 pay breaks off the relationship
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according to Hayes diary Adnan does not take this well the relationship then becomes something
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of an on-again and off-again relationship and it appears the two officially and finally break up just
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before Christmas 1998. January 1st 1999 hay is interested in a new boy and it's an older boy from her
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work his name is Dawn and the two go on their first date together on January 13 1999 Heyman Lee is last
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seen at school then at about 3 30 PM that day Hayes family becomes concerned when she fails
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to pick up her little cousin later she is reported missing less than a month later Hayes body is
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discovered partially buried in Lincoln Park in late February police subpoena adnan's
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cell phone records and begin questioning the persons listed on adnan's call list
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on February 28th 1999 Baltimore Police interview Jay Wilds a guy who says that he is very good
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friends with Adnan Jay tells police that Adnan showed him Hayes lifeless body in
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the trunk of her car after Adnan asked Jay he helps Adnan bury the body in Lincoln Park
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in September of 1999 Jay Wilds signs a plea deal agreeing to testify that he helped Adnan dispose of the body
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in February of 2000 Adnan Syed is convicted of first-degree murder then in 2014 this closed case would change
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dramatically with the launch of a podcast called Syria the serial podcast featured the Heyman
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Lee murder case and took a closer look at the case four and against Adnan Syed new interest in the case led to special
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appeals in the Maryland courts since then the murder conviction has been vacated charges dropped conviction
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reinstated and appealed again this week we check in with our friends Brett and Alice from the prosecutors
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podcast for a discussion about the Heyman Lee murder investigation the case for and against Adnan Syed and where
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this very complicated case sits today this is true crime garage [Music] [Applause]
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[Music] foreign two of the things that that I thought you did incredibly well with your coverage of this very
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complicated case was to be one to be very expansive on on every different aspect of this case though the one
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aspect that I thought was so necessary with your expansiveness and how much you go into great detail was the timeline
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because on serial it's a whole different package presentation than what you get when I tuned into the prosecutors for
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your coverage of this complicated case where they're being a little more theatrical they're kind of bouncing
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around a little bit and the timeline's Not So Clear in fact the timeline they give is a very short very brief almost a
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glimpse of the true timeline and you guys gave a very detailed and expansive timeline
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obviously we don't have time to go through that here today because I think to get through that timeline it took
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what two three full-length episodes that you guys did and what I want to hone in
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on for we we got a bit of a uh a complicated situation here ourselves because we're going to have a lot of people that
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will listen to these episodes and there's going to be a small portion of that audience that has no clue of the
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case that we're talking about so they're hearing about this case for the first time and then we'll have the large
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majority that are well aware and have listened to cereal maybe even had gone back and listened to it a second or
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third time because it was so good but for you and we'll start with uh Alice because she's the the only lady in the
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room sorry Captain what were some of the key Parts in the timeline for you yeah thank you guys for uh you
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know having us on and talking about this I think it's really important to talk about the timeline and here's the thing
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about the way we structure all our episodes we always have a timeline and this case was no exception and the
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reason it's no exception is that when you lay out the facts and you lay them out in context and in relativity to each
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other a lot of the story comes through whether you are leaning one way or the other the timeline is an incredibly
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important part of any type of case and we always tell our listeners we want you to think for yourselves we want you to
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go to the primary sources and to engage with the evidence and don't have someone
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just tell you what it is and part of that is knowing where each of the pieces of the timeline each piece of the case
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fits together in relation to another thing especially I know that cell phone calls are a huge huge deal in this case
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and once you put all of these cell phone own pings within the timeline and see where it fits within the story it tells
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a much different story than cherry picking pieces and bits of the timeline or pieces and bits of these cell phone
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pings so I think one very important thing that we do in the timeline as we do in all our cases is to put kind of
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those cell phone pings which have drawn a lot of controversy from all sides of you know the this this entire kind of
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story but puts them into context of where they fall and how certain stories fall apart when you look at the Timeline
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based on these cell phone pings yeah and I'll just add to that I mean I've been listening to y'all show for a long time
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and you guys often do a timeline as well and I think you probably see the same thing we do when you actually lay out
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when events occur and you lay out what's happening in relation to other things a
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lot of times by by the time you finish the timeline you actually have a pretty good idea of the story even if you
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haven't gone that deep into the evidence and I think you talk about cereal cereal
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is an amazing piece of entertainment and one of the reasons is because it kind of
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keeps you guessing the whole time and we always find that we're we want to be entertaining but we also want to be
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enlightening and the way to do that is not to hide the ball for people so we always want to lay out a timeline and
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obviously the events of that day are important but so are the events that surround it when you look at their
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relationship they data for a long time they broke up a couple of times they got back together
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they had broken up in early December but then at Christmas they're giving each other gifts and you have to wonder if it
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wasn't in maybe even both of their minds that this is going to be a breakup like
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the last two this is going to be one way to get back together but then hey Falls kind of head over
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heels for Dawn and a week before this all happens she's changing her instant messenger profile
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to talk about how much she loves Dawn and how her job is to stare into his baby blues and her number one thing is
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being his girlfriend very public thing particularly at that time in 1999 and the kind of thing that you could imagine
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might have came as is a surprise to Adnan even if he knew that she was dating so the guy she's been dating for
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a week and all of a sudden she's completely replaced him with this guy and I think when you look
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at that timeline you realize that the events of January 13th sometimes you think oh that was a month after they
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broke up but not really not really not if you compare it to other sort of emotionally charged events that are
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occurring with this case being so polarizing especially on social media did you guys have any hesitation to
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cover it that's a great question it is a polarized case I think um the reason it took us you know uh
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several years to to cover it was not so much because we were afraid of blowback or anyone
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um being angry with us because people will be angry at you no matter what you do more so it's because we didn't want
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to just um pile on this case has obviously been covered by a lot of different content
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creators and we've always said we don't want to just be another voice in the wind for any case there are a lot of
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very very worthy cases to cover and we like to do you know as thorough research as possible and that takes time as well
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and this no doubt because of the trials that have occurred because of a lot of trial transcripts and you know content
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that's out there there's a lot of things that you have to digest in order to do the case justice so part of the reason
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it took us a while to cover it was the amount of research it required but also wanting to make sure that when we did
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cover it it was to add value in the case and not just repeat what's already been
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said before and we knew how everyone came out there'd be people who were upset about it I mean that's just the
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way it is and that's fine and you know we've never shot away from controversy and we've certainly never changed our
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position based on what's going to be the more popular View and I will say this the thing that when we when we started
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to record this and and first episode and we're getting ready I was really nervous
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about it but I was nervous because I felt like we owed it to we owed it to hay and we owed it to Adnan to get it
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right and to be as straightforward as we could be with it we're prosecutors we look at this from a different
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perspective but we did not come into this thinking we want to make we want to make sure
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that it looks like Adnan side is guilty we want to support our our friends in the prosecution team in in Baltimore
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whatever we didn't do that we were always going to go through the file and it's lengthy it takes a lot of time to
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go through the entire case File to read the defense file to read the appeals in this case and there's a lot of
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information out there beyond what you hear in in podcast that took a lot of time but once once we
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got through that a story emerged from for us that we were going to share with our audience and we
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were going to do that whether people were happy about the outcome or not that's one thing that I was very curious
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about as prosecutors let's step aside from the podcast world for a moment just go into prosecutor world but you know on
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True Crime garage we we are so invested in the investigation or The Manhunt finding out who did it and then and then
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apprehending them that's the the parts that we really dive into and we really want to cover and go through that that's
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where our interests lie but as a prosecutor by the time you guys catch your case
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they've already told you this is who we think did it and here's a whole bunch of
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reasons why so where an investigator when they catch a case they are often trying to sort out exactly what happened
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and then even in some jurisdictions and a lot of a lot of jurisdictions uh hopefully one day maybe all of them
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that police protocol becomes okay this is this is a homicide and we we will investigate it as such until the
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evidence proves otherwise but when a prosecutor catches their case as said they they already have either a
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grand jury or police telling you this is who we think did it and here's the the evidence to why so how do how do you
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guys look at a case when you first pick it up and and what do do you reinvestigate everything that was done
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do you do you tear through everything that's done and and let the evidence lead you to what you believe the outcome
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to be or do you immediately start building your case against the person that they've told you I think this is
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actually a place where we have a we have an advantage because you're right I mean
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there are some cases and Alice and I've been involved in them where you're with your investigators pretty early on and
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you really are sort of directing the investigation those are a lot of fun but a lot of times you're 100 right one day
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somebody walks into your office they have a file they plop it on your desk and they say hey we think this guy did X
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Y and Z let me know if there's enough you know we're ready to we're ready to charge this guy and our job when you're
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a prosecutor is not unlike what you're doing when you're a podcaster you take that file
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and you're looking through it and you're as we often say your ethical obligation
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is not just to prosecute and it's not just to win it is to ensure that Justice is being done and that the person who
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you are Prosecuting is guilty and that there is the evidence to convict them so when you look through that file you're
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looking for what are the elements of this offense do we actually prove that how do we know this happened what are we
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relying on what is our evidence can you trust this eyewitness why didn't they test for fingerprints is there any
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DNA like you're going through you're thinking through all the holes in your case for several reasons number one
00:18:22
because you want to get it right number two because you know one day a defense attorney is going to look at that same
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file and they're going to be looking for those holes so that's what we do in our
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job and when in in the podcasting world it's the same thing you get this file and you read through it and you're
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looking for holes and you're looking for what did the police miss or what are other people missing who are criticizing
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what is the defense making too much of what are they getting wrong what are they getting right where are the
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weaknesses and where the where are those strengths and I think that is an advantage because we do it every day in
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our jobs it helps us actually when we look at these cases to really break them down and figure out whether or not they
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hold up and for those who are not familiar with this case I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler alert
00:19:05
here but if you were to go back and listen to serial you learn very quickly into the very first episode that this
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story is going to be about the murder of a a young woman Heyman Lee who had her whole life ahead of her she was very
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bright young woman making moves to to further her experience and go off to college and she probably would have went
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on to do great things however she is killed and her ex-boy boyfriend Adnan Syed is convicted originally you know
00:19:37
he's he's charged and they build a case against him and then he's later convicted so much of his the case
00:19:43
against Adnan as as it were presented by the podcast serial was that they were able to convict him heavily in part due
00:19:54
to Jay Wilde's testimony against him now how would you guys you two as prosecutors handle a situation like this
00:20:03
because your your main witness in this case is a not credible and B not even likable like what what is the strategy
00:20:13
when you are dealt this card in your attempt to convict the accused so that's a really good question and of
00:20:21
course Jay wilds and his changing story are uh you know endless endless fodder for conversation about this case and one
00:20:29
thing that we emphasize in all of our episodes is that you are given your witnesses as you are we don't coach our
00:20:38
Witnesses we prep them and know what they're doing but know what they uh want to say and if their inconsistencies we
00:20:45
pick those apart and the reality is that you will always have witnesses who have
00:20:51
differing stories because memories fade people get nervous on the stand they may
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be trying to minimize their part in whatever uh whatever story they're trying to tell because we all put
00:21:05
ourselves number one and honestly the type of witness that Jay Wilds is on the stand for Adnan syed's trial is not
00:21:13
unlike most Witnesses in General whether they are lying or not and so this case is not out of the ordinary with respect
00:21:24
to a major witness having changing stories it's something you have to deal with it is something that you certainly
00:21:31
turn over to the other side so that it is all completely fair game and fodder for cross-examination and the reason you
00:21:39
have it all out for the jury to hear is they hear all of the Father for cross-examination they are
00:21:44
cross-examined and you compare against all the other facts in this case now Adnan Syed was not convicted based on
00:21:51
just one person's testimony it was a long trial there was a lot of evidence that came in that had nothing to do with
00:21:57
Jay Wilds but the jury gets to listen to All of the versions of Jay's story hear
00:22:03
him cross-examined hear him taken apart and also hear all of the other Witnesses
00:22:08
who are called to trial as well as the experts and the evidence put against it and the jury is charged with weighing
00:22:13
whether they believe Jay or any of the witnesses for that matter and way whether this man should be convicted
00:22:19
this is is all incredibly important and why we say it's important for you to read everyone who's interested in this
00:22:25
case to read the trial transcript because you begin to see that there is no hiding the ball there can't
00:22:31
be any hiding of the ball it is all out for the jury to consider it which was done in this case and one of the things
00:22:37
that you do when you have witnesses like that and you really do often have them because as we always say it'd be great
00:22:43
if your best witness in a drug conspiracy was the little old lady in the choir from the church but usually
00:22:49
it's not going to be a lot of times your Witnesses initially when they interact with the police will lie to them
00:22:54
sometimes they lie to us I mean we've been in the room when a witness broke and admitted what we knew to be true
00:23:00
because we had independent evidence and from that point before they were they were honest but they certainly got
00:23:05
cross-examined about that at trial and what you have to do is you have to take the other evidence and look at it and
00:23:10
with Jay Wilds he has a story that is inconsistent in many places but is consistent in a lot of places and we lay
00:23:17
out those consistencies essentially Jay's story is that Adnan the day of the murder told him to take his self on his
00:23:23
car to pick him up later that he was going to to kill hay and there are cell phone number one he absolutely did that
00:23:32
there's no question there's no just there's no dispute that he gave Jay his cell phone his car there's also
00:23:38
Witnesses who heard overheard Adnan Syed that morning tell hay that he would need
00:23:43
a ride because he didn't have his car because it was in the shop which isn't true and Adnan actually would tell a
00:23:49
police officer that very same day that he was supposed to get a ride with hay but by the time he showed up she had
00:23:55
already left so he missed it so things like that are backing up this story that Jay tells Jay knew the location of Hay's
00:24:02
car which up to that point had not been found and when you look at the location of the car and you look at those cell
00:24:07
phone pings that night there's an outgoing call to Jen pusateri that pings over where the car was found the college
00:24:15
in pusateria was to meet them so that she could pick up Jay and take him home things like that are backing up his
00:24:23
story they're supporting his story Adnan even says he was with Jay when he got the call from the police
00:24:29
their hay was missing so there's just there's so many things about Jay's story that aren't in dispute facts that you
00:24:36
just can't deny and so even if they're inconsistencies and there always will be the overarching story one that by the
00:24:44
way he told to Jen fusateri that night and that she actually told to the police first she's the first person to tell the
00:24:50
story of the police not Jay so you know if you think Jay is somehow being Guided
00:24:55
by the police to to frame Adnan well that doesn't make any sense because they would have had to have done that with
00:25:00
with Jen first and when Jen tells that story her lawyer is sitting with her and her mom's sitting with her which is a
00:25:06
much better situation than Jay who did not have an attorney when you combine all those things together you start to
00:25:10
think yeah there's some inconsistencies there are some problems but we can bolster the things that matter and we
00:25:18
can surround it with all these other facts and at the end of the day the jury is going to believe look I don't know
00:25:22
that everything he said was true but what I do know is true is that Adnan did it
00:25:43
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00:26:54
thank you so let's stay on Jay Wilds for a little bit a lot of people believe Jay Wilds
00:27:01
lies about everything that he had ulterior motive for placing the blame on Adnan a lot of people also believe that
00:27:10
he made a plea deal with law enforcement before giving them any information well
00:27:17
I mean I think people have speculated several things about why Jay may have made up quote unquote made up the story
00:27:22
Jay was someone with a criminal record he was someone who sold drugs he had been involved in altercations with the
00:27:29
police before his lawyer which he did not get until much later than he should have had one
00:27:35
and this is something we point out when we talk about our in our episodes you want to point to some police misconduct
00:27:40
some real policeman misconduct Jay's second interview he should have had an attorney he asked for an attorney by
00:27:46
that point he'd incriminated himself in this murder as an accomplice and they didn't give him one and when he did get
00:27:52
an attorney it was someone who had been a public defender who'd actually been a prosecutor and a public defender and had
00:27:58
gone in private practice who I think was the best thing that ever happened to Jay
00:28:01
because she was a really good lawyer and I think she recognized some of those issues and was able to get him a pretty
00:28:06
good deal now one thing I'll say about that the deal he made was he would plead guilty to
00:28:11
accessory after the fact which is a very serious felony and you know he was looking it up to five years I think
00:28:18
everybody thought he would get time but I think if you read between the lines what actually happened there was some of
00:28:25
the things that had happened when the police were talking to him led the judge to go ahead and give him probation
00:28:31
instead it's a good deal but I think it also helps Jay that at least according to the story he tells
00:28:38
his involvement in the crime is all after hey is is deceased I think this is very important because for so long when
00:28:45
I looked into this case I thought well of course Jay is lying and he has reason to lie and he's not going to face any
00:28:53
consequence but that's not true he was going to face consequences for his actions and for his
00:29:01
involvement and this murder case now that's 100 right I mean the first time they bring him in it's not like he's
00:29:07
sitting there with his lawyer and has uh you know an immunity agreement on the table he he walks right into and this is
00:29:14
not unusual either I mean we see this all the time and I'm always surprised by the number of people who in their first
00:29:19
conversation with the police will admit to everything and then they get a lawyer
00:29:23
involved in the lawyers like man I wish you just answered me earlier right and Jay
00:29:27
that first interview he walks right into this accessory charge and he was looking
00:29:33
at a at a good amount of time the first time he's told this story so yeah you're
00:29:38
you're absolutely right that deal that he ended up making wasn't made until much later when he finally did get a
00:29:45
lawyer frankly much later than he should have and I think if anybody would have had a complaint had let's say he had
00:29:51
been he had gone to trial and been convicted I think he actually would have had a pretty good argument on appeal
00:29:56
that a lot of his statements were taken in violation of his constitutional rights and that doesn't help add
00:30:01
non-side at all because Adnan can't defend his constitutional rights but they're you know do not do not do not
00:30:09
mistake our sort of General defense for the prosecution in this case to mean that there weren't some some real
00:30:16
misconduct going on there absolutely was which is probably not surprising to most
00:30:21
people who are familiar with Baltimore and she just it didn't really involve add-ons ad so much as some of the things
00:30:27
the police did when getting Jay's story were were in violation of his rights well and let's stay on that a little bit
00:30:35
there for a second with the with the conspiracy theory that the Baltimore Police wanted to do a frame job on Aden
00:30:43
on Syed and that they actually knew the location of the vehicle the missing yeah
00:30:49
Heyman Lee's missing vehicle and that they they kept that purposely had Jay lead them to the vehicle even
00:31:00
though they again according to the conspiracy theory already knew of its location or may have placed it there
00:31:07
through and through Blue Blood right here and that's not going to change however we've covered enough cases in
00:31:13
the Baltimore area to see obvious clear signs of corruption with certain pockets
00:31:18
of that Police Department um and other politicians in in that that city as well so if if it were to be the strangest of
00:31:29
conspiracies that would were to be true Baltimore's a likely venue for that but what would be
00:31:40
the motive I don't understand what the motivation would be or where that that conspiracy the seed of that conspiracy
00:31:46
theory even comes from it's a really good question and there is a lot to unpack there and look we we are the
00:31:53
first ones we we'd like to think that we are the first ones to call out police misconduct when we see it it absolutely
00:31:59
does exist and we'd like to think and we do think in our experience that it is a
00:32:05
small percentage of what there is but let's talk about this particular case in the Baltimore Police here
00:32:12
in order for this to have been a massive frame job conspiracy there are so many things you'd have to believe that don't
00:32:19
make any sense in this case so let's just take the two people that you have at the story when the police are trying
00:32:24
to decide who to frame you have Jay Wilds who has a criminal record he's a black man living in Baltimore who's
00:32:30
already had scuffles with the police he's known to be a drug dealer he is often around people who
00:32:37
um are in trouble with the law he himself has described himself at this time as a criminal element of Baltimore
00:32:44
so he views himself as a criminal and then you have on the other hand Adnan Syed an honors student who regularly
00:32:53
attends mosque with his family is involved in his mosque um and he is in the honor classes with
00:33:00
the rest of the honors students applying for colleges likely going to get into college a smart boy a very
00:33:08
popular uh student at Woodlawn High School he is the prom Prince you know he's not only liked by students uh he's
00:33:16
liked by teachers he is really kind of the shining example of what a what you'd want in a student so between these two
00:33:24
people it really boggles my mind why the police would choose to frame the honor student who has absolutely no criminal
00:33:32
record over the the person who's known to have a criminal record who it you know continues to to be involved in the
00:33:41
selling of drugs that they would choose Adnan to be the one to frame and then on
00:33:45
top of all that why would they have the person that this entire frame job relies
00:33:50
on would be the person who is least credible someone who does have a criminal record and if in fact they
00:33:57
wanted their entire frame job to rely on Jay Wilds someone who in the court of law as we've already seen is going to
00:34:05
have a lot of credibility issues why would it be that the main point of their frame job would be to have him lead them
00:34:12
to the car when they've already put out a bolo be on the lookout for every police officer to be on the lookout for
00:34:20
Hayes car for weeks and they're not able to find it I mean those of us who work in law enforcement or law enforcement
00:34:28
adjacent recognize that even if you're alleging cons even if you're alleging you know corruptness within a department
00:34:35
there are many individual actors within a department usually a a bad actor is not going to be an entire department
00:34:43
think about all the people you can barely get people to you know turn in their time sheets on time much less all
00:34:49
be part of this big conspiracy where there's a be on the lookout for Hayes car and no one happened to accidentally
00:34:55
slip up and actually find the car if you're the police and say you know be on the lookout but don't actually be on the
00:35:02
lookout because we're going to have our criminal element of Baltimore find the car for us so that he can be our main
00:35:08
witness against this honor student I mean I mean that is that is such a difficult and also frankly stupid frame
00:35:17
job don't put out the bolo pretend to put out a bolo but don't actually put out a bolo it wasn't a pretend bolo they
00:35:23
they really did have these announcements out to all law enforcement and not just
00:35:27
their own Department across jurisdictions to be on the lookout for this car you'd have to be coordinating
00:35:32
this Frame job across multiple jurisdictions when we know that it's really difficult to have all of your
00:35:40
jurisdictions row in a line we talk about this uh a lot of times when there are jurisdictional fights between the
00:35:45
state and the local and the federal law enforcement agencies you're looking at this times 10 across basically the
00:35:53
Eastern seaboard I'm not saying that police corruption doesn't exist but this police corruption would be one
00:36:02
beyond the imagination of any Hollywood writer and when you look at the facts of
00:36:08
what is happening in this case it is so incredibly unlikely and also kind of the
00:36:14
worst way to go about a frame job because if they knew where Hayes car was they took they you would have to believe
00:36:22
that they took this incredibly risky risky step of leaving it there for weeks unprocessed not looking for evidence
00:36:32
or by the way if you know where where her car is why not just plant something of adnan's in there that is a great way
00:36:39
to frame someone to put their DNA in there or to put you know a report card or whatever in her car instead you're
00:36:46
gonna have to go through this you know hoop jumping exercise of having your witness Jay Wiles lead you to a car
00:36:55
where you knew it was and you could have actually planted much better evidence to
00:36:58
frame him frame Adnan if that's what you wanted to do I like what you said there
00:37:02
Alice about risking leaving the vehicle there okay look God bless Baltimore and the good people of Baltimore but it is
00:37:10
not the safest the city in in America and it is certainly a city that has higher rates of crime and to where do
00:37:22
they when he does when Jay does lead the police to the vehicle what part of Baltimore is that vehicle found
00:37:29
is it just east of uh Lincoln Park it's pretty close to Lincoln Park which as everybody knows in Baltimore and
00:37:34
anybody's seen the wire is where everybody dumps the body so not necessarily the best part of Baltimore
00:37:39
right so to and and they put out the Bolos to be on the Lookouts a couple of times leading up to him
00:37:47
leading them to the vehicle and this is over the course of a couple weeks correct
00:37:53
yes they they were looking for the car since she disappeared but when they found her body they really picked it up
00:37:58
including asking for the entire Eastern Seaboard to look for right and so if you
00:38:02
know that the vehicle is there and you're going to build a lot of your case around that vehicle you in that City
00:38:09
you're running the risk of somebody's jacking that car and stealing your stealing your evidence right like
00:38:15
stealing stealing your your what you're going to one build your case on into give some credibility to your already
00:38:25
questionable witness that you're going to eventually put on the stand and Nick that's a great Point not only are the
00:38:31
police looking for it you know this this case was on the news it was parked you know like in an Alleyway what if so you
00:38:38
let's say you have all of your police law enforcement on board to not call it in even though there's a bolo they know
00:38:44
where the car is but not a single police officer calls it in how do you prevent all of the individual passer buyers who
00:38:50
are not part of law enforcement who may have accidentally seen it and think oh my goodness I just saw that the police
00:38:56
are looking for this car and I this is my daily route to work I'm just a private citizen I'm gonna call it in you
00:39:02
know that that is a huge risk especially if we're talking about weeks of letting
00:39:05
this car sit out in the open it wasn't in a garage it was in an Alleyway you know not a lot of people traveled this
00:39:12
Alleyway but it was still out in the open so you're facing a lot of risk that a you know a good Samaritan who's not
00:39:18
part of law enforcement will accidentally call The Car in and just two other points I want to make we've
00:39:23
been talking about the evidence that would be lost and I think that's a huge point and it makes you wonder if they
00:39:28
wanted to do that all they had to do was process the car not tell anybody they had it and then use it have him lead you
00:39:34
to the lot where it was it's not there but it's because you've already claimed it you could have done that the second
00:39:40
thing is they don't know what they're going to find in it you know what if they do this whole frame job with with
00:39:45
Jay and they go out to the car and they open the front door and there's a Serial
00:39:49
Killer's driver's license sitting in the in the driver's seat he lost it and now
00:39:53
they're like well shoot what do we do now we got into this whole frame job going and here's the evidence of the
00:39:57
person who actually did it and the last thing talk about cell phone pings if you
00:40:02
assume that the police either knew where it was or planted it there so he could go find it it just so happens to be
00:40:08
exactly where the cell phone pinged when Adnan and Jay were together when Jay is
00:40:15
going back to talk to Jen and one thing we know for certain is that at the point
00:40:18
the police talked to Jay for the first time they did not have that information they would not have known that so that
00:40:25
is either an incredible coincidence or or something else is going on with this Frame job I've always struggled with
00:40:30
this case whether or not addon was innocent or guilty it's a red light case for me and I think one of the issues in
00:40:37
this case is because there's a time period where she goes missing in a time period where she's found and the
00:40:44
information we get from the eyewitnesses becomes a little blurry it becomes a little confusing so it's always a
00:40:51
problem everybody talks about this you guys talk about it on your show the more time between when someone goes missing
00:40:58
when the police go into action when the body's found when a suspect is arrested when Witnesses are interviewed the more
00:41:04
time that passes the more you're going to have confusion and you have that in this case and you see it in things like
00:41:10
nobody can really confirm when you know hay was interviewed by the news you would think that would be something
00:41:15
everybody could confirm and for a very long time people thought that happened on the day she disappeared seems like it
00:41:21
actually didn't seems like it happened about a week before that stuff like that eyewitness accounts of seeing hey go get
00:41:27
some french fries or do this or do that or she was supposed to go to the wrestling match there was no wrestling
00:41:32
match that night so though there are little things that you certainly lose which is by the way another reason why
00:41:39
when the police find the body a month after she disappears if they had the car they would have
00:41:45
processed it right then because every second to pass is the seconds that you're going to lose
00:41:50
evidence you know you may have DNA that degrades the car might get stolen as we talked about
00:41:55
you need to talk to people you need to move forward but the thing about it is I think there's been a lot made of sort of
00:42:02
memories changing and people forgetting but and that was a huge focus in cereal the very first episode of cereal she
00:42:08
spends half the first episode saying things like if someone asked you what you were doing six weeks ago would you
00:42:15
be able to tell them and all that stuff but there are some huge pieces of information
00:42:20
that we knew immediately you know there's this eternal debate about whether or not Adnan asked hey for a
00:42:26
ride that day that very day that she went missing he told a police officer he asked her for a ride
00:42:32
so like we can debate that and we can debate how people's memories shift and maybe people forgot certain things but
00:42:37
we have contemporaneous evidence that he did that things like that I think are are much harder to chalk up to to
00:42:45
Memories fading now I will say this a big problem we have is investigations happening 17 18 19 years later
00:42:51
we talk about that some in our case as well where people are asked to explain things that happened 19 years ago 20
00:42:58
years ago and and they don't remember they don't remember what happened at all and that adds another level of confusion
00:43:03
but I think you can get down to some pretty important facts that we know because of documentation in and
00:43:10
around the event there will always be some stuff lost and there's a lot of that in this case but I don't know how
00:43:15
important it really is at the end of the day yeah I think that's incredibly important
00:43:19
to know here because with any case even if there was no lag in the investigation
00:43:24
you're going to have either inconsistent stories or people's memories are just going to not be perfect we've talked
00:43:30
about this a lot that circumstantial evidence is just as weighty as direct evidence but the the reality in the
00:43:37
court of law but the reality is that direct evidence eyewitness testimony is faulty not just because of memory but
00:43:44
because our brains process things differently and we may not always know that what we are witnessing at the time
00:43:50
is going to be of evidentiary value later so we're not taking notes at the time we're not making sure to parse
00:43:56
through every detail for purposes of regurgitating at a later time which is why I witness testimony is not the
00:44:03
golden standard necessarily taken in conjunction with other evidence can be very helpful but in this case I think so
00:44:11
much hay has been made about um parts of people's memories that we can't remember but you have to parse through
00:44:18
what is important for purposes of the elements of the crime that Adnan was charged with or and whether it's just
00:44:25
going to be ancillary to the real story here and when you look at the brass tacks and things that we can confirm a
00:44:32
very a very sturdy story actually begins to emerge and it doesn't really matter the the things that are gray on the
00:44:39
outside because they don't go to the core of what happened that day and whether it's important for purposes of
00:44:46
um the charges that were brought against Adnan and the ultimate conviction Brett what was your and I wanna
00:44:53
focus in on the timeline still here when you're putting together your bullet points for this very expansive timeline
00:45:01
what was the one item on that timeline that you were looking forward to diving deeper in and
00:45:08
figuring out the details of such and it doesn't have to be something that pointed toward
00:45:13
guilt or toward innocence it could be something that that had little to do with the case at all but when you're
00:45:19
putting together this this very big timeline what was the one thing that that jumped off the page to you that you
00:45:25
said that now I want to know more about that and what did you learn so there are
00:45:30
a couple things it's hard it's hard to narrow it down to one you know I'll say one thing that that really jumped out to
00:45:37
me and I think is has jumped out to a lot of people and that's there's always this question
00:45:42
about Lincoln Park and there's questions about cell phone pings and how accurate
00:45:46
they are and sometimes you'll hear people say things like the cell phone data is useless now I
00:45:52
pulled up a Entertainment Weekly article which as we all know is the ultimate source of news and one of the bullet
00:45:58
points about this is the cell phone pings mean nothing which is so absurd on so many levels because number one cell
00:46:06
phone calls tell you who you were calling tell you what time and even to the extent people argue that some of the
00:46:12
cell phone pings are unreliable they're incoming calls and the same data sheet that says incoming calls are not
00:46:18
reliable for location specifically says that outgoing calls are and so a lot of people focus on there are two
00:46:24
incoming calls that ping off the leak in park Tower and some people debate can you trust those or not well one thing
00:46:32
that I thought was interesting is the phone there's only one other time that the phone actually pings in leaking
00:46:41
Park and it's on January 27th and on January 26th sort of late at night J and Jen pusateria are together
00:46:50
she gets pulled over the police get Jay of the car they start to harass him I think is how he put it he starts to kind
00:46:57
of fight back and eventually they arrest him so Jay gets arrested late at night on the 26th the next day
00:47:05
on the 27th is the only other time the cell phone pings in Lincoln Park and it pings from an outgoing call
00:47:13
which means unlike the incoming calls the night of the the murder this is one that everybody agrees is accurate and it
00:47:21
puts that cell phone adding on cell phone in Lincoln Park and it's to someone that Jay knows and I think the
00:47:30
natural sort of question I had was is that Adnan driving into Lincoln Park having heard that Jay has been arrested
00:47:39
seeing whether or not the police are there and driving by the location of the burial seeing that there are no police
00:47:46
there and calling Patrick to try and figure out what exactly happened to Jay why has he been arrested so for me that
00:47:55
was a time that was a time period that really stood out seeing that the body had not been recovered either right
00:48:00
exactly and the the thing is too that is adnan's cell phone in Lincoln Park the very same park that he will later
00:48:12
say that he has no awareness of the of its existence he's not been there he doesn't know the people
00:48:20
put bodies there correct yeah and then that's 100 true and that's one of those things and there's another there's
00:48:26
another point when you you read through various uh parts of the case File where before that call even happens
00:48:33
the the bus I think the track team or one of the teams is actually driving through Lincoln Park and adnan's on the
00:48:40
bus and they're talking about how this is where they bury all the bodies and it's just the notion that this park
00:48:46
where all the bodies end up which is a couple miles away from Woodlawn that everybody in high school wouldn't know
00:48:52
about that I think is pretty silly but when you combine that with the fact that add-on absolutely was in that park with
00:48:58
his cell phone making phone calls I think it really makes you question a lot of of what you've been told about about
00:49:05
this case and about Adnan and we were all in high school once and I've got to tell you
00:49:10
there it's very difficult for me to believe that the teenagers are not talking about the park nearby where the
00:49:16
bodies are found um like I that that has to have been something that comes up uh especially
00:49:24
around Halloween time or just anytime you're joking about somebody being missing it that's
00:49:30
but you know what we can we give him the benefit of the doubt and say you know what maybe he never did hear of any of
00:49:35
those things for many of his his friends or or classmates but what we cannot and what is not in dispute is that his
00:49:44
cell phone is in a park that he will later claim that he has no awareness of that Park the name of it or that uh that
00:49:52
bodies sometimes are recovered from that Park so that I mean that that is a pretty big hurdle for him to to clear
00:50:01
after the fact Alice for you what was what was the the moment on that timeline for you that you
00:50:08
wanted to learn more about again it doesn't have to have anything to do with innocence or guilt but just something
00:50:13
that jumped off the page that caught your attention that you wanted to learn more about and what did you learn yeah I
00:50:19
you know I thought it was really interesting we've heard about Jen pussetary a lot I've seen her
00:50:25
um you know talked about and other podcasts and obviously she's talked about her her role in this a lot so I've
00:50:30
I've not really dived into gen pusateri's um uh interviews with the police before we decided to cover this
00:50:37
case and I thought picking apart what she would have known and when she knew it and the fact that she told really Jay
00:50:45
story to the police before Jay told the police the story was enlightening for me
00:50:51
because she would have only gotten her information from Jay which helps put us kind of the timeline of when these
00:50:56
things would have happened because if their impact was a conspiracy and that Jay was coached by the police to tell a
00:51:03
certain story to to be able to frame Adnan it would have had to come at a time before Jen even went to the police
00:51:08
before Jay ever had contact with the police which was not something that I'd really heard before and so again that
00:51:15
timeline of when stories began to take shape and who they were told by um were were very helpful for me in
00:51:22
understanding okay if there were a frame job if there were coaching by the police
00:51:27
they would have had to start coaching Jay well before he even had contact with the police well how would they have done
00:51:32
that how would they have gotten to Jen pusateri before that and and you know one thing that that I didn't quite grasp
00:51:39
on until we dove into this was the fact that when the first time Jen talks to the police you know she she's she kind
00:51:45
of says I don't know anything which I think we could all completely uh empathize with if she she was not there
00:51:52
for the burial she wasn't there for any part of it she heard about something very disturbing from Jay after the fact
00:51:59
that she's afraid she doesn't know what's going on and if she were to say a that she knew anything she could be
00:52:05
incriminating herself or her friend Jay and so I understand the first time she's
00:52:09
saying I don't know anything but then when she goes back and gives her whole statement to the police and she does it
00:52:15
not alone but with her attorney and her mother sitting there it makes the whole situation of police coaching a lot more
00:52:25
difficult you have not only an adult in the room her mother but you also have a professional an attorney sitting there
00:52:31
that type of coaching is is just it's going to be very very difficult and it makes the whole
00:52:38
police coaching aspect of the conspiracy theory a lot more difficult to overcome
00:52:45
to to prove in this instance when you see Jen's Story how she tells it and how it takes shape
00:52:52
um and again that's something that I think the the timeline really begins to tell the story because of when she
00:52:57
speaks and how she could have known her information which was from Jay and just one other thing on that and something I
00:53:02
think we should all remember and I think people forget Jay and Jen I mean they're both
00:53:07
teenagers Jay's out of high school but I think he's 19 at the time Jen may be 19.
00:53:13
they're both teenagers and you have to believe that the police in concocting this Theory have decided we're going to
00:53:20
hang this whole case on these two teenagers one of whom has a criminal record as a drug dealer we're going to
00:53:26
put all our faith which includes keeping our jobs and you know possibly staying out of prison because usually when you
00:53:33
frame people for Crime that's a crime of itself I'm going to put all our faith on
00:53:36
these teenagers and send them forth into the world and here we sit 20 years later
00:53:40
and to this day neither one of them has said it was all uh the police coaches you know we were we were pressured by
00:53:47
the police neither one of them have done that I think that's significant well one
00:53:51
thing I like that you guys did real well was the presentation of Dawn and clearing up the so don is dating
00:53:59
heymanly at the time of of her death and Adnan Syed is the ex-boyfriend now I I haven't gone back and listened to cereal
00:54:10
and again this is not anything critical of their presentation in fact I enjoyed I enjoyed the podcast very much and
00:54:19
every year around Thanksgiving on that long weekend I usually go back and revisit something uh from yesteryear
00:54:25
maybe an old book or something and read it again or pick something up watch watch an old movie for the second time
00:54:31
this year it might be serial uh listening to your guys's episodes piqued my interest and I might have to go back
00:54:36
and listen to cereal again it was that good but I I feel like there if I remember their presentation correctly
00:54:45
yes you're aware of dawn early in the episodes but it's not until late in that first season that the idea is pushed
00:54:54
forward that whoa he may he may be a suspect here he may be somebody that we should have some consideration of did he
00:55:02
do this and with your guys's timeline you you very clearly stated that the police looked at this guy and when they
00:55:12
start looking at him and they start looking into this case they're very quickly led to
00:55:19
Adnan who they believe is a better suspect and can you kind of just take us a little bit and expand on that a little
00:55:27
bit for those that may not be familiar with that part of that detail of the investigation because a lot of people's
00:55:35
perception is what was delivered to them in cereal that that oh we spent so much
00:55:40
time D going through the details of Adnan and Jay and oh here's this other guy that we should give consideration to
00:55:49
when in fact it was it was very likely the reversal and look there's nothing wrong with taking a look at Don and and
00:55:56
seeing whether or not you know there's any connection there certainly the police would have done that he's the
00:56:00
current boyfriend he's going to be an initial suspect they talk to me multiple times
00:56:06
you know they there are notes if you read the case File you know their notes or they're like hey it didn't seem that
00:56:12
broken up about her her leaving because at the time you know for all they knew and I don't know why they really thought
00:56:18
this but there were a lot of people who thought she went to California I don't really understand that and it's we see
00:56:24
this a lot you guys see this a lot in cases where people disappear and inexplicably the police are like well
00:56:28
maybe they ran away it's like no they didn't but there's nothing wrong with looking
00:56:33
at him eliminating him as a suspect and moving on but the problem you have and why we need to move on from dawn is when
00:56:41
you look at the Timeline hay is supposed to pick up her cousin I believe it's her
00:56:46
cousin some people say it's her niece I'm not 100 sure but she's supposed to pick up her cousin and around 3 30 at
00:56:51
her school she's very conscientious about that she does it every day and she doesn't pick her up and what we all know
00:57:00
for certain knowing hey knowing that fact is that by that point whatever was going to happen her it happened now
00:57:07
maybe it was she'd been kidnapped and she was killed later maybe she was killed but the criminal action had
00:57:12
happened and you have Don who is working Don who has a time card a computerized time card that can't be changed later
00:57:22
without it showing up on the time card who is not he's still at work at that time there
00:57:28
are people who say he's still at work the the opportunity for him to do that in that time period is not there nor is
00:57:36
the motive he'd been dating hay for two weeks by all accounts they're very much in the
00:57:40
honeymoon phase that Hayes last diary entry the night before she died is this lovey-dovey thing about Dawn
00:57:48
somehow you have to believe she went from that to they get into some kind of altercation at a time when he's supposed
00:57:54
to be at work he murders her and then somehow he hides the car buries the body nobody notices he gets back to work
00:58:03
nobody notices and he gets up to his house at about the time you'd expect him to be there
00:58:09
how how you can fit all that into the timeline is kind of Beyond me and honestly the only reason to think Don
00:58:15
did it is because you don't want it to be adenone there's no actual evidence that he did
00:58:19
and I just feel like he is one of those victims of True Crime where there are people out there who get wrapped up in
00:58:26
these cases he'd known hey for a couple months he dated it for a couple weeks for his entire life he has had to deal
00:58:33
with people questioning whether or not he murdered her and that's just another tragedy on top
00:58:38
of a lot of the tragedies in this case yeah that might be a little bit of a misfortune but he was dating a girl that
00:58:44
went missing he was dating a girl that was murdered I believe he had just as much motive as Adon because we don't
00:58:51
know if Heyman Lee told him hey I'm not interested in you I'm going to get back with Adnan we don't know that
00:58:59
I think he could have been looked at Harder question harder I mean he was the current boyfriend she goes missing he
00:59:08
doesn't try to call her cell phone no record of that a lot of people state that she was actually going to meet Dawn
00:59:15
before she actually picked up her cousin so there's some question there and then he is just happens the day she
00:59:24
goes missing to be working at a location that he never worked at before never worked out again and the time card I
00:59:31
believe was handwritten by his mother's girlfriend I mean there's just enough for me that he should have been looked
00:59:39
at harder when I'll just address a couple of those number one that wasn't the day she said she was going to meet
00:59:44
up with him this is one of the things people get wrong the day she said she was going to meet
00:59:48
up with him was the day that they were going to play Randallstown in wrestling and she had written a letter for him
00:59:53
that she was going to leave with him that actually was a week before we know that because the person who said
00:59:58
she was going to meet up with him was the other scorer or the wrestling team and she was very upset when she didn't
01:00:04
show up well that happened the week before so that is an example of sort of memory
01:00:08
getting whatever number two she's not questioning the relationship there's no evidence she is
01:00:12
all the evidence is that she is head over heels in love with him number three I can show you the computerized time
01:00:18
card which you could not enter more than a couple days after this happened so you would have to
01:00:25
believe that whoever's helping him get away with this is doing it knowing that he's killed
01:00:31
someone and and doing it before the body's even found which I also don't find to be very believable as far as the
01:00:36
phone calls two things never called her either but people say he never called her
01:00:43
that's not actually what he said he said he couldn't recall whether he ever called her number two he was over at
01:00:50
their house he was visiting with Hayes family a couple days after this happened so this
01:00:56
notion that he had no concern about her and wasn't worried about her it just isn't true when you're diving into a
01:01:04
case that's so polarizing and the evidence is drawing you to the conclusion that Adon is guilty was there
01:01:12
a piece of evidence that kept steering you to the direction of maybe that he was innocent well the things for me I
01:01:20
mean number one and this goes back to something we talked about earlier listening to serial I found Adnan to be
01:01:27
likable and I know a lot of people didn't I found him to be like well I wanted him to be innocent and if I
01:01:33
hadn't seen it happen so often that very likable people do really terrible things
01:01:36
I think it would be really hard for me to get past that and I think it's it's hard for a lot of people to get past
01:01:41
that I mean he's not somebody who has a history of violence he's somebody who as
01:01:45
far as we know in prison was was a perfect model prisoner you know if if he stays out of prison I I don't doubt that
01:01:52
he will probably never commit a crime again that you know you compare that to the
01:01:57
person who had to strangle this this this young woman to death and it feels incongruous
01:02:03
you know when you think about evidence look Alonso sellers is not a terrible suspect anyone who
01:02:13
finds the body is always going to be a suspect he has sort of some weird proclivities
01:02:17
Alaska streaking we know that he's assaulted somebody in a vehicle before I mean these are things that make you want
01:02:24
to look at him you know if you're the police there's not a lot of evidence that he's
01:02:28
involved Beyond him finding the body but you know he's he's a he's a decent suspect one thing a lot of people point
01:02:36
to is the DNA that was on hey shoes the problem with that is it's touch DNA on her shoes in the back of her car
01:02:42
and as far as we know it's not connected to anyone obviously if one day you could say Hey
01:02:47
you know advances in technology we were able to show that this DNA is Alonso sellers
01:02:54
that would be a pretty powerful piece of evidence and I think at that point you'd
01:02:58
have to start really looking at what in the world is going on because remember in order for anyone else to have done it
01:03:05
there there has to be that massive conspiracy the one we talked about all of a sudden this thing that seems so
01:03:10
incredible it's impossible to believe that anybody would do this all of a sudden it becomes more likely
01:03:16
now the way you get around that we talk about this some and we'll talk about this a lot on the episodes is if somehow
01:03:23
Jay is involved you know if J is your main suspect a lot of the conspiracy stuff Falls away you no longer have to
01:03:29
believe that the police are coaching him or the police took him to the car it could all just be because
01:03:35
Jay was involved problems with Jay Jay has the same problems as a lot of people there's no apparent motive and because
01:03:42
Adnan puts himself with Jay pretty much the entire day it's hard to even imagine
01:03:47
how Jay could have done it and Adnan not been involved so you know there's no huge red flag sticking out to me I think
01:03:56
and Alice and I talk about this sometimes you look at a case based on the evidence you have
01:04:01
if one day there's more evidence that's when you start to reevaluate it but given what we have now I think you have
01:04:07
a really strong case that adnan's involved and very weak cases against most of the other people that you think
01:04:14
of as being possible suspects yeah and you you know I think I think that's what's really hard about this case is
01:04:19
addon to me is a very likable person and I I find no no joy at all that we conclude that the evidence absolutely
01:04:27
points to Adnan being guilty I don't want this honors student who by all accounts is going was going to be a very
01:04:34
productive member of society to be a murderer to be a murderer who you know is shut away and no longer able to
01:04:41
contribute to society I think this is a tragedy a tragedy not only for Heyman Lee but also for Adnan and what he could
01:04:48
have become as well but like Brett said sue too often we see cases where people who seem like they
01:04:55
couldn't do horrendous things are not only capable um but they do do it and it it often
01:05:02
happens to be the person who looks to have um you know their act together to have
01:05:07
no uh no proclivities to do any criminal element but we we see that enough to know that we can't just buy into what a
01:05:15
book looks like on its cover and so as much as I don't want Adnan to be guilty I can't ignore the evidence
01:05:22
that seems so clear here and there wasn't a piece of evidence that that I thought man I don't know that this could
01:05:28
this could be the bit that um makes him Innocent but I'm just going to ignore it
01:05:33
there really was none of that and remember it's a game of not just it's not just making sure the evidence
01:05:40
fits adnan's conviction but rather if not Adnan who else and in this case every single viable suspect truly Falls
01:05:47
away when you take a hard look at the evidence and the only the only one that it really points to
01:05:54
when you look at the evidence is Adnan whether you start there or not that and the evidence absolutely led me
01:06:01
to his guilt I do want to say this it's only a tragedy for what Adnan could have
01:06:07
become if he is innocent um if he did do this and he got caught got convicted what he would have become
01:06:15
is very likely an abuser or he would have impulsively killed somebody else at some point
01:06:22
um so I do want to be clear about that in my feelings anyway but the but you're you're absolutely right Allison the
01:06:29
evidence to me when you review the totality of it it suggests that portions of J story are truthful
01:06:42
and then if you were to take that bit of knowledge then you have to go okay well
01:06:47
if parts of his story are the truth then you're only left with really three conclusions in my opinion when you start
01:06:56
talking about other other parties and if you know if the this unknown person did
01:07:02
it or if uh don did it very quickly they become problems there there's clear problems with those other Suspects
01:07:12
because of the evidence the evidence suggests that some of Jay's story is correct and so that means three
01:07:18
possibilities to me Jay did it Adnan did it or the two of them did it together I think that's right I mean I I don't I
01:07:25
don't know how you get past that and we talk about the cell phone pings and once again what's helpful and what's not
01:07:32
helpful and if you if you believe I mean look there's a tight timeline here and the
01:07:39
fact that there's a tight timeline it helps Adnan on the one hand because he can say and he says it's in serial and
01:07:45
in the prosecution in my view in their opening statement now thinking they're closing as well made a mistake saying
01:07:52
that the 236 call was the she's dead come get me call because that made the timeline even Tighter and there's no
01:07:59
there's no reason to think that's true Jay doesn't say that Jay doesn't testify to that and there are other phone calls
01:08:06
that make more sense but if you put that aside for a second but the 236 phone call aside for a
01:08:12
second you have a situation where we know Jay has the cell phone in the hour around when hay would have had to
01:08:20
have gone missing and he's making calls and he's taking calls and all those calls are pinging away from the high
01:08:27
school so if he's not near the high school where hay is and he's actually south of
01:08:34
the high school and hey eventually is going to make her way north of the high school to pick up her cousin
01:08:39
where is the opportunity assume for a second that you know well it doesn't matter I guess what their
01:08:45
add-ons doing it but where is the opportunity for Jay to have been involved in the actual kidnapping and
01:08:51
murder of hay because his cell phone by his I mean add-ons doesn't start to move towards the Best Buy until more
01:09:01
like 3 15. at which point she's definitely been grabbed and that's when it starts moving towards the best
01:09:08
spot then it's at the Best Buy for a little while then it starts moving towards Woodlawn and we know that Adnan
01:09:15
has or at least Jay says and not only Jay jyn says in her first statement to the police
01:09:22
she says Adnan told Jay he had to go to some practice of some sort she wasn't even sure what kind she just knew that
01:09:27
he was supposed to go to some practice so he could be seen so he'd have an alibi
01:09:30
and what do you see you see the cell phone start moving North towards the high school according to the
01:09:36
track coach who testified at trial he testified at trial the track started around four o'clock Jay's making phone
01:09:42
calls at 3 48 next to Woodlawn High School so exactly where he'd need to be to be dropping off Adnan so he can go to
01:09:49
track practice you're looking at stuff and it's like how is it possible for Jay to have done
01:09:54
this by himself thank you [Music] join us back here in the garage tomorrow for the conclusion of our interview with
01:10:12
Brett and Alice of the prosecutors podcast until then be good be kind and don't litter
01:10:20
[Music] thank you [Music]