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Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick and
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this guy, this is a guy who thinks hand sanitizer is called ham sanitizer. Hello, Captain. You can call me the
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captain, but my friends call me Julius Pepperwood. It's good to be seen and it's good to see you. I'm from Chicago.
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Today we are featuring OK Pils by the good folks over Anthem Brewing Company in Oklahoma City. Garage Grade, three
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and three quarter bottle caps out of five. According to Anthem Brewing, OK Pils is not the answer to all of your
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problems, but with a heavy dose of German pilsner malt to start and European hops to finish, it may be
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close. And this week's beer was brought to us by these good folks right here. First up, cheers to Renee from Olympia,
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Washington. A big we like you jib to Jamie in Rock Falls, Illinois. Next up we have Don in Northbridge,
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Massachusetts. Also in Massachusetts, we have Elena in Easton and we have Ashley
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in, I'm told it's pronounced Taunton, Massachusetts. We know we all know how great I am with these Massachusetts
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towns, but cheers to the great state of Massachusetts. And the one that I'm going to mess up.
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Big shout out to Carolyn in Tuckahoe, Tennessee. And last but certainly not least, big Eskimo kisses to dainty Dana
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in Nome, Alaska. Thanks to everybody for filling up the fridge for this week's show and also thank you to everyone for
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your five-star reviews. Yeah, and I was telling you off the record that uh if everybody bought a t-shirt, everybody
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And how great would that be? So, go to the store page, buy a t-shirt, make us multi-millionaires and then we'll never
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have to do another ad. And that is enough of the business. All right, everybody gather around, grab
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a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. As many as 1,000 people packed into an
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Oklahoma church Monday to say goodbye to a prominent member of the state's religious community. Pastor Carol
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Daniels was found dead inside a small town church late last month, apparently the victim of a violent attack. Daniels
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suffered gashes to her neck and throat, plus stab wounds to other parts of her body. Daniels traveled to the church
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every Sunday to deliver a sermon. Those who knew her are remembering the good she did in the community. She's always
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been the same person every time you saw, always very sweet. Uh just always loved
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God, loved people, just the sweetest person you ever wanted to know. Always supportive, always loved people, always
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willing, you know, to jump in and tackle, you know, a task. Um always wanting to help people.
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That was just her vision, her mission was always wanting to help someone along the way. During Monday's service,
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mourners were asked to pray for whoever took Daniels' life. Some say the person responsible would have benefited from
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spending some time with the pastor. There's absolutely no logic other than that person didn't know the Lord Jesus
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Christ. And if they'd sat down and spent some time with Pastor Daniels, they would have come to know him and maybe
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made some other decisions. A $10,000 reward has been offered for information leading to an arrest and conviction in
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the case. Ed Donahue, The Associated Press. Mother and Pastor Carol Daniels lived in
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Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Her son Alvin describes Carol as a loving mother, someone who was always joking and always
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taking care of her family. She was an extremely giving mother and person. Back in 2009, Pastor Carol Daniels was 61
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years old. On Sunday, August 23rd, she got in her car and drove 60 miles or so southwest to Anadarko, Oklahoma. This
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was her routine for about four or five years. Every week on Sundays, driving 60 miles to Christ Holy Sanctified Church
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in a rundown area of Anadarko. She drove to the church to preach or if no one was there, she would stay and
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pray. Anadarko, Oklahoma is described as a small town that in 2009 was economically
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depressed. About a half mile from the church is a neighborhood that was described as,
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quote, a pretty high crime area. Troubled by drugs, including crack cocaine, and also having a large
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transient population. Now, on the other hand, we have this beautiful person. We have Pastor Carol
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Faye Daniels, who is a beacon of light. Described as a champion for the helpless
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and the hopeless. There to serve God and the community. She kept the doors open each Sunday
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morning, waiting there with open arms. Sometimes she would go out into the streets offering food and goodwill to
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those who needed it most. Ask anyone in the small town, Pastor Daniels was loved. Yeah, but it was a pretty small
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congregation, right? Well, Christ Holy Sanctified Church was a tiny church. It it was a small, aging white building
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with a big black cross on the front. Now, they did have a marquee outside which listed the worship times as well
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as Pastor Daniels' name and a simple message that said God loves you. Now, on August 23rd, 2009, Pastor
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Daniels, after making the long drive to the church, she was seen at 10:00 a.m. outside of the church. Yeah, and she
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won't be discovered until about 11:40 because retired Bishop Silky Wilson Jr. and his wife are going to arrive at the
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church. Now, they get a little scared, so they don't go into the church and they call law enforcement and then
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law enforcement is going to find the pastor. So, the way that this works is the Bishop Wilson
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and his wife, they arrive around 11:40 a.m. at the church, okay? And this is a fairly regular meeting. It didn't take
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place every Sunday, but this was a fairly regular thing for Bishop Wilson to meet Pastor Daniels at the church.
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Right. Okay, so they pull up, everything seems normal and they get to the front door. The
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problem is the front door is locked. Well, this is highly unusual. Um Pastor, I'm sorry, Bishop Wilson
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couldn't recall another occasion where he arrived and the door was locked. So, he uses his cane to knock on the door,
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but there's no answer. And Bishop Wilson said that the church was too quiet as if
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no one was home. And this was confusing to him and his wife because Pastor Daniels' car was out front.
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Now, he said that they shouted, they tapped on the windows, they even drove around the building hitting the car horn
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and still they got no response from anyone inside the church. Yeah, I mean, I think that this seems a little off,
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but think about it. You go to a small church, it's a small building, you know that your friend is supposed to be
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there. You knock, there's no answer. And her car's there. That's all you need to
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really get spooked, right? Mhm. Well, this is also not a great area. Uh I want to point that out. They have a
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pretty low murder rate uh for that time in that that town, but this is not a great area. Uh this is kind of a rundown
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side of town and there's uh to put it as as politely as I can, there's there's some sketchy people in
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this neighborhood. Okay? So, what happens here is he has his wife alert the police.
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Now, according to the incident report, the call that went out was for a welfare check at the church and regarding Pastor
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Daniels. So, at approximately 12:00 noon, Officer Ashley Burris was dispatched to 305 Northeast 1st Street.
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Upon arriving at 12:02 p.m., he met with the reporting party, Bishop Wilson and his wife. Mhm. Some of you may have
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noticed the very fast response time. We should note that the police station is less than one city block from the
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church. Officer Burris entered the building from the side door. Once inside, he discovered the
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brutalized body of Pastor Daniels. The officer immediately called for backup and within minutes, Officer
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Burris and two other officers cleared the building and secured the scene. Due to the heinous nature of the crime,
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the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations were called in. Five officers waited outside the church
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guarding the scene until the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations arrived on the scene.
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Now, the State Bureau of Investigation, the lead agency in the case, tried to pull fingerprints or uncover even a
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shred of DNA evidence at the scene. They got neither. What was the early information that came out on about the
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investigation? Well, so there there were some details that were very publicly known very early on in the
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investigation. And these come from statements of people working the case and people around the case.
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Mhm. So, first we have Cherokee Ballard is the State Medical Examiner's office spokeswoman
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who said, "A preliminary autopsy deemed Daniel's death a homicide caused by multiple sharp force injuries. Carol
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Daniels suffered numerous gashes to her neck and throat as well as a stab wounds
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to her chest, back, stomach, and hands. Her body had been quote staged in an unnatural position."
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And then we have Dr. William Manion, forensic pathologist, said, "Carol Daniels appeared to have been left in
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the form of a cross with both arms outstretched at her sides. Her head was nearly decapitated by the force of deep
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stabs to her neck and throat." Mhm. According to local newspapers and their sources, the body of Carol Daniels was
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staged behind the church altar. Daniel's clothing had been removed, possibly to hide evidence or as some
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kind of trophy from the grizzly scene. Investigators say her killer methodically sprayed a dissolving
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chemical around her body in an effort to destroy DNA evidence at the crime scene.
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And then District Attorney Brett Burns said, "I've prosecuted over 50 murders. This is the most horrific crime scene
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I've ever witnessed." So, I mean it sounds like it's premeditated if they're bringing some kind of cleaning solution.
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Well, what's not clear there is it could have been something that was found inside the church itself. Yeah, very
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true. Um and then I do want to offer up one final statement. This is from Jessica Brown, State Bureau of
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Investigation spokeswoman, which going forward, just to save time, we will we will say OSBI.
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Uh she said authorities do not have any suspects and are offering a $10,000 reward for
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information leading to an arrest and conviction. She says, "Right now, we have more
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questions than answers. The few answers we do have, we want to hold on to. That might help us in the long run."
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Pastor Carol Daniel's funeral services were held August 31st in Oklahoma City. And as you heard in the trailer there,
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there's like a thousand people turned out for uh her funeral services. Her son, Alvin Daniels, said, "All my
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mother wanted to do was preach and her funeral would be another chance for her to spread the word of God."
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So, any first thoughts there, Captain, regarding the early information that came out after the discovery of this
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horrific murder? Well, even though it's a small congregation, the problem here with such a public figure is
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these pastors are hired to do funerals, they're hired to do weddings. They normally counsel
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marriage counsel people outside their congregation. And then you take a typical congregation,
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let's say it only holds, let's say 100 people. Mhm. But the congregation could be 500 people. Or if you think about the
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congregation members that only show up on Easter or just Christmas, now you're talking about uh
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a thousand people. Mhm. So, and then you mentioned earlier, this is not a great area. So,
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churches are known to take collections. The evidence by taking the clothes, the cleaning
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of the body or the cleaning solution, Mhm. and the manner in which her body is found to me lends it to to be a
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a murder for a reason. Mhm. But then her being a pastor and it being a church, you also wonder
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is this um is the motive a burglary gone bad? Yeah, I mean really when you start to
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think about this, you could have a a bevy of motives here. And I want to be clear, I've never been
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to Anadarko. It could be the most fabulous place in the world. I'm simply going off of what it was stated in the
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newspapers, the local newspapers at the time. I've been to Oklahoma City, great city,
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but they were saying that this part of town is a high crime uh rate area. And like you pointed out there, you
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wonder do we have a situation where this is either a premeditated murder by somebody that knew her and and wanted
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her killed for whatever reason, or two, could this have just been somebody looking to to make an easy
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robbery? And I say easy robbery because the way that they describe this scenario
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and the way that Pastor Carol Daniels went about her business is that she would arrive at the church
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in the the church's front door is unlocked and the doors are open to the public. Come in,
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you know, seek if you're seeking worship, if you're seeking prayer, if you're seeking advice from the great
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pastor, whatever. Our doors are open to you, all walks of life. Do we have anything that
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we think is possible pieces of evidence? Well, we have a bunch of really interesting things here. Some of it
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being evidence and some of it being speculation. But before we get into that, I want to point out something that
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that we've already covered is what the the investigators were saying at the time that right now we have more
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questions than we do have answers. And answers that we have, we want to hold on to for now because they could help us in
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the long run. And that's where I think that there's some of this questionable movements and behaviors that we should
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bring up here. Um you know, cuz I've seen on some message boards and some websites where
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there is some speculation and people that that in a roundabout way suggest that they find the bishop's story a
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little strange. That just finding the locked door, trying to get some kind of response from inside the church, that
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this put him on high alert enough that he has his wife contact the local police. Mhm. So, I I think we should
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dive into that real quick. Because what we have here is uh Bishop Wilson is an elderly
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gentleman. We already said he's using a cane at the time. Some people have questioned
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when the police arrive at the scene. Okay, so we have the front door that's locked, right? But we know from the
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incident report that the responding officer entered the church through a side door. Now, it's unclear on how the
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officer gained access to and through that side door. Because some people have suggested,
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"Well, why wouldn't the bishop and his wife have tried the side door?" You know, hinting that it could have
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been unlocked. Right. And we don't know from the incident report 100% if they found that
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door to be unlocked or here's the other scenario. There may have been obvious signs that
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somebody broke into that side door, right? And so, not only would the officer be able to access the building
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from that side door, but that would also scare the the good bishop and his wife to say,
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"You know, we're not we're not 20 years old, honey, and I'm not packing heat. Maybe we
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shouldn't head in there. We don't know what we're walking into." Right. So, I think we should clearly point that out.
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I've also found one bit of interesting thought and I and I'm I'm going to say that this is speculation regarding the
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side door because I couldn't find other stories to back this up. One source said that the door was
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removed as as evidence. Mhm. That at some point the investigators took that door off the hinges and made
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it evidence. And the speculation being that if this would have been some type of
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hate crime or some kind of satanic related crime, that there may have been something drawn or painted on that door.
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And therefore, they removed it because that's something only the killer would know. Mhm. But part of my speculation on
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this is going a bit of the other direction. I wonder if the door was simply broken
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into. But again, that was something that the killer would know. That one the door was broken into and
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and the possible method of breaking into that door as well. And that could be another good reason for removing it.
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One thing that we didn't get to yet either, Captain, is okay, so you have what the papers are
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calling the posing of the body. And we know that the we know that Pastor Daniels was stripped nude. The clothing
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her clothing was not found at the scene. We know that a cleaning agent or some type of cleaning solution, chemicals
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were dumped on the body. But on top of that, some of her hair was burned. And some of the articles that you read
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will state that it was completely burned off, that they burned off her hair. If you read the autopsy, they burned off
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a good majority of her hair, but she still had hair when she was found. Mhm. So,
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here's one It's very strange. It is very strange. It's What I'm getting at here is it seems
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like we have a situation where she's brutally attacked. And I'm not going to go through the autopsy
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uh from top to bottom in this situation. Just trust me in my words when I say this was a vicious attack. And I think
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the captain was getting to something there that that could very likely be correct that this could be premeditated.
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And it could be somebody that either wanted to seek revenge against the good pastor or had it out for her for some
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reason. That if when we talk about overkill, if you want to go find the autopsy and
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read it yourself, you can. What you will find there is obvious signs of overkill.
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And then on top of that, the killer took the time to confuse the scene, to do things at the scene of the crime and had
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some time there. They didn't just flee. They didn't kill and flee. Whoever did this, they stayed with the
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body for a little bit of time. All right. Well, let's go over the situation. It's T-shirt time. The cabs
00:21:25
are here. This is what doesn't make any sense to me. If that door has some kind of drawing on it, maybe some symbolism,
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then is the taking of the clothes, is that symbolism? Is the burning of the hair
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some kind of symbolism? Mhm. The way the body is laid out, is that some kind of symbolism? We We've seen this in other
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cases where the neck The neck injuries are so deep it almost cause causes decapitation.
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Mhm. Is are all these things some kind of symbolism? Okay. So, I do have some possible evidence, but I also
00:22:05
have some really good thoughts on all of that. What do you want to hear first? Well, let's start with the evidence and
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we'll just keep those in the back of our thoughts. Okay. So, first we have a possible eyewitness. A man claimed he
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saw the murder suspect leaving the church. This is Robert Richardson. Said he was across the street from the church
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in Anadarko where the murder took place. Robert said, quote, "This guy was coming
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out. He was covered in blood. Mhm. He had a ski mask on. He had a knife in his hand and it was dripping blood."
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Richardson said that he was at a car wash. So, there's a car wash across the street from this church.
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Mhm. And this is where he says that he was when he saw the man emerge from the Christ Holy Sanctified Church. He said
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it wasn't until a few hours later that he found out what had actually happened. He said, quote, "A friend of mine said
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Pastor Daniels got killed and that just hurt me to my heart. That was my pastor." Richardson said. Richardson
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said he didn't immediately go to police right away because he was drinking at the time when he saw the man. And he
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didn't want police to question his credibility. However, Richardson said he eventually
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went to police and investigators and told them what had happened and they questioned him.
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It's reported that Robert Richardson is homeless and was possibly living behind that actual car wash at the time. Right.
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Neighbors said he makes a living doing odd jobs around town. Richardson says his story is the truth, but there are
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contradictions in Richardson's story. Does he have a a good look at this individual? Does he
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Does he think it's a female or male? Does he think it's a uh white man or black man?
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Well, that's where we have some problems with Richardson's story. So, he was interviewed by local news, by multiple
00:24:05
local news stations. Right. And in these published reports, he gives a different story. Right. So, in one
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report, he says that the blood-soaked suspect was black and bald-headed. But then, he tells News 9 that the
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suspect was wearing a ski mask. Right. So, you wouldn't be able to tell It's one or the other, then.
00:24:29
Right. If the suspect had hair or not. That's That's the My pet peeve is when somebody says, uh
00:24:36
"This one time in college, we had this guy that came up and he was yelling at us because we're partying and he said,
00:24:43
'Look, uh I got some friends over and uh and we're having a conversation downstairs and we're trying to sleep.'
00:24:52
And it was like, 'Which one is it?' Right. It can't be both at the same time. Well, I I tell you what, I don't
00:24:59
believe Robert Richardson's story, but I do What makes you suspicious of him? Right. Well, I do like the cut of his
00:25:07
jib because he it was presented to him that they they're like, "Hey, there's contradictions in these stories that
00:25:12
you're saying." And he says, "If anyone doesn't want to believe me, they can just go about their business."
00:25:19
So, here's Here's the big problem with his statement. Not only do they not match up, but what I just read from are
00:25:26
portions taken from a news story. In that particular news story, it almost makes it sound like he gave this
00:25:32
statement to police later that day, the day of the murder or the night of the murder, maybe even the next day. Mhm.
00:25:40
But the problem with that is we know this now to not be true. So, this does not add to the credibility
00:25:47
of this gentleman. It just takes away from it. So, not only it does his story is it different depending on who he's
00:25:54
talking to, but he didn't immediately go to police at any time. And I know we have his statement saying, "Hey, I was
00:25:59
drinking." But from the information that I could find, he didn't go to police from anywhere
00:26:07
until 7 days to as many as 11 days after the murder. Mhm. Another reason why the
00:26:12
story is changing cuz he might just not remember. Well, and it's it's difficult to narrow
00:26:18
down exactly when he went to police because both the Anadarko police and OSBI, they refused to comment publicly on Mr.
00:26:29
Richardson's statement or if they even spoke with him at all. So, the first time I could find Mr.
00:26:36
Richardson popping up in the media was already after the reward money was announced, which was initially $10,000
00:26:44
and 1 week later was bumped up to $15,000. Mhm. So, you can take that for what you will.
00:26:51
That's likely not evidence. Second, police did recover video surveillance footage from a convenience
00:26:59
store adjacent to the church. This footage shows Pastor Daniels driving up in front of the church on
00:27:07
Broadway to park her car at 10:00 a.m. Mhm. Now, back in 2009, police were pretty tight-lipped about what was on or
00:27:15
not on that camera footage. For the record, this is footage from two cameras, both, keep in mind, a distance away, but
00:27:25
one captures kind of a side view of the front of the church, and the other camera is facing the other
00:27:33
direction. Now, the third possible thing we could talk about in relationship to evidence
00:27:40
is the murder weapon. We know by the autopsy findings that the murder was committed using sharp force.
00:27:48
So, very likely a knife. And judging by the report I read, likely a large one. Mhm. This knife was not found at the
00:27:57
scene. So, no murder weapon left at the scene. What they did find was a large knife
00:28:04
reported to be 6 to 10 inches in length recovered from across the street from the church at that car wash that we've
00:28:10
already mentioned. Now, unfortunately, we now know that this knife was eliminated. So, this this knife was not
00:28:19
the murder weapon. I don't know what cleared that knife, but it's been publicly stated that that was eliminated
00:28:26
as a possible murder weapon. but this goes along with the reports that this is a rough area. When you're
00:28:32
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casper.com/garage, offer code garage for $50 off your mattress purchase. Terms and conditions
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apply. All right, we are back. Cheers, mates. And before we get into it too much here,
00:31:42
Captain, a belated birthday a happy belated birthday to you. There's a cheers. All right.
00:31:48
Through the glass. Happy 420, man. While we're on the topic of items that were not found at the crime scene,
00:31:57
we have to keep in mind that someone stripped Carol Daniels after killing her. The pastor's clothes were taken from the
00:32:04
scene. So, some have suggested that this could mean one or two of the following, that
00:32:11
either one, this was a sexually motivated crime, two, the clothing was taken as a trophy.
00:32:17
This would be possibly because the offender is a serial killer or maybe a Satanist. Mhm.
00:32:24
And three, the clothing was taken to eliminate evidence and or confuse the crime scene. Yeah, this seems like with
00:32:31
the cleaning solution that maybe the clothes were taken to get rid of evidence. I think that's the most likely scenario.
00:32:39
Regarding sexually motivated crime, there was no there was no sexual assault believed to
00:32:46
have taken place during the commission of this murder. Mhm. And I understand that it doesn't have to that does not
00:32:52
have to occur for it to be a sexually motivated crime. But, I'm with you, Captain. It seems to me if they're going
00:32:59
to go to if the killer's going to go to the lengths of spending time at the crime scene to remove the victim's
00:33:06
clothing, then they're very likely doing that to eliminate evidence and or confuse the crime scene. Now, regarding
00:33:14
the report of the body being posed, according to investigators working the case, there are only three reasons
00:33:21
Pastor Daniels' body would have been posed in such a way. One, it was a crime of sexual fantasy {slash}
00:33:28
frustration. This is the most common reason to find a body posed, sexual fantasy or to give
00:33:35
the killer sexual pleasure. Two, it was done out of anger and retaliation, where someone does
00:33:44
does this to get back at the victim and to further degrade them even after death.
00:33:50
Three, it was done with the intention of confusing investigators to make the scene look like one thing when it's
00:33:57
actually about something else. Knowing which can give investigators insight to the
00:34:04
killer. It is a key piece of evidence only the killer would know, which would be critical during
00:34:11
interrogations. Now, online sleuthers, some have added a fourth possibility. Pastor Daniels was
00:34:18
killed as a religious statement and her body was posed to serve as some kind of biblical tableau.
00:34:26
The interesting thing here is out of all of those scenarios, we have we have some that line up with the
00:34:33
possibilities in regards to removing the clothing as well. Mhm. And one of those
00:34:39
being to confuse the investigators, to confuse the crime scene. And I think that could be exactly what
00:34:47
we have here. But, I think what we what we've not got into is a fifth possibility.
00:34:54
Okay, so we have an expert who who was active in this case and he has written dozens of books on
00:35:03
the many facets of homicides, including an 800-page text that is widely known as
00:35:09
the quote Bible of homicide investigations. In fact, copies of this sits on detective desks across the
00:35:18
nation. This is a very popular um textbook. Now, this expert wouldn't talk specifically about Pastor Daniels'
00:35:25
case, but did discuss some of the clues left at the scene. And regarding the posing of her body, he
00:35:32
says, quote, if the body was posed, I can state unequivocally, it's extremely rare circumstances.
00:35:41
He says, less than 1% of all homicides present sexually posed victims. So, keeping that in mind, it seems more
00:35:51
likely that maybe she wasn't posed at all, that the body may have just been in that
00:35:58
manner, left in that manner for whatever reason, just by happenstance. And that people have speculated that she
00:36:07
was posed. And I think that's that's probably a pretty good conclusion to come to in
00:36:13
this without knowing for certain. Because you would have a situation where we have
00:36:18
a a murdered pastor found inside of a church and if she's found lying on her back with her arms spread out,
00:36:26
it may seem that somebody put her in that manner when after undressing her and and
00:36:33
uh doing, you know, confusing the crime scene, that she was just left that way, that it
00:36:38
was not intentional the way that she was found. Yeah, it's it it's weird and and
00:36:44
this door. I mean, this perpetrator, this uh manure-soaked wing maggot, did he did he do a drawing
00:36:53
on the door or not? Do we Well, we don't know. And and to be honest with you, I don't I could not confirm if that
00:37:01
story is in fact true, that they that investigators actually removed the door. So, without being able to confirm that,
00:37:09
I wanted to make sure we included it because I find it to be interesting an interesting portion
00:37:15
of the the investigation if it did occur. What without knowing that they even Right.
00:37:21
Without even knowing that it did happen, it's tough to speculate why they would have
00:37:26
would have removed it. Yeah, and you would think at some point maybe they would even release the drawing to see if
00:37:32
anybody recognized that kind of artwork anywhere. But, you would think that if there was
00:37:38
some kind of satanic drawing, then that leans all the other evidence towards that. But again,
00:37:47
is that to throw people off the scent or is that some legitimate piece of evidence we should be looking at? Well,
00:37:52
my whole thing regarding that door is I lean toward the thought if it was removed that it was removed because of
00:38:00
the method of how they they got in through the door. Right. got in through the door. Less likely
00:38:06
than a drawing because I think that this this investigation has had its its it's
00:38:12
been a roller coaster ride. There are times when it pops back into the media and it seems to be a very active
00:38:18
investigation. I think that at some point if there was a drawing, they would say there was a
00:38:24
drawing. They wouldn't tell us what the drawing was or, you know, go into detail
00:38:29
about it. But, I think they could clear that up because we have the investigators publicly speculating on to
00:38:37
as to the reasons why the clothing was removed and if the body was posed. So, if there was some type of drawing or
00:38:44
graffiti that was left on that door, I think they would know why the clothing was removed and the
00:38:52
motivation behind the murder and maybe the break-in altogether. Do you feel that the removing of the clothes is more
00:39:00
towards removing of evidence? 100%. Less sexual. Right, 100%. I I think that the
00:39:08
the clothing was removed because of evidence. I think there's a a decent chance that if a large knife was used in
00:39:14
the commission of this murder. We've talked about this many times before. A knife is a dangerous weapon not only for
00:39:20
the victim, but for the offender because a lot of times the offender will injure
00:39:24
themselves in the course of the attack as well. Well, If if they if they bled onto her clothes or suspected that they
00:39:31
may have, they removing those clothes would be key, then dumping the the chemical agent on the body to to further
00:39:38
degrade any possible evidence, and then the burning of the hair. It It's almost to me seems to be very clearly somebody
00:39:47
taking a lot of effort to Right, but to cover up the crime and and and to hide evidence. Because if you kind of
00:39:54
picture this You What I try to do sometimes is picture how I think this could have went down. So, let's pretend
00:40:01
that the door the side door was in fact somebody broke into it. Right. It's very likely that if somebody went
00:40:07
in there with the intention of murder, whether it be for revenge or religious purposes or whatever,
00:40:13
if they went in there to the church with the purpose of murder or robbery that led to murder,
00:40:19
Uh-huh. we know that the front door was found locked. It's very likely, we know that that she arrived at her normal
00:40:25
time. It's very likely she would have entered the church through that front door. The bishop was expecting to find
00:40:32
the front door unlocked. It was only when he found it locked that he was alerted that something might be going
00:40:36
on. I then think that he noticed that the side door was obviously broken into. And I think what could have happened
00:40:44
here is we may have an a killer that knew she would be alone in the church at that time and broke into the
00:40:55
church earlier, much like we had the uh Missy Beaver's case, where the the killer broke into the
00:41:02
church before the victim arrives. Right. She's now in the church. The offender attacks her, kills her,
00:41:11
locks the front door to buy time to to do all these other methods of the clothing, the cleaning agent, the
00:41:18
burning of the hair to remove evidence from the crime scene. Well, again, you go back to the knife being
00:41:26
dangerous to the victim, but also dangerous to the murderer. So, if the murderer bleeds onto the
00:41:34
victim's clothes, then that would give reason to remove the clothes. And it would give reason to remove the
00:41:41
panties. And I'm I'm going to stick on that for I'm going to I'm going to come back to
00:41:46
that. But also, maybe there was blood in the hair. Therefore, you dump a cleaning
00:41:51
agent, you then burn the hair. Now you're trying to burn evidence. Because I would say the removing of the clothes
00:42:00
is to cover evidence, but the fact that her underwear was taken, to me that leans sexual.
00:42:10
That this guy is going to go home and, you know, become a sausage milker, but the bra and panties being taken to me
00:42:21
Well, that's that's certainly a possibility. I mean, BTK, there there are other individuals that that do that
00:42:27
exact thing. Because you Like I said, I mean, but we don't know what they're trying to cover
00:42:32
up, right? We don't know why they're taking the clothes. Because it's possible that
00:42:38
they bled on her or or whatever, and then just thought, "Well, if I'm going to take the clothes to cover up
00:42:43
evidence, I take all the clothes." Right. And and potentially confuse the crime scene. Yeah. You know, confuse the
00:42:49
investigators as to what it is that they're actually looking at. And I think that whoever did this,
00:42:55
from from the evidence that's been made public, Yeah. if that was their intention, they did a good job because
00:43:01
it doesn't appear that that Well, as of 2009, I will say, it didn't appear that the investigators at the time had a
00:43:09
clear understanding of what the motive was behind this murder. Yeah. And one thing I do want to
00:43:16
point out though, too, is that Carol Daniels, she put up one hell of a fight, one hell
00:43:24
of a struggle. She was fighting for her life and defended herself to the best of her
00:43:30
ability. And I say that because I think that that's where the offender that the killer may have thought that
00:43:38
there's a there's a potential for a lot of evidence that they could have left behind because the
00:43:44
struggle was so was such such a tough one. And so, you you wonder where you go, "Okay, is this just some really sick
00:43:52
individual that's going to take all of the clothing for whatever purposes later, Mhm. or is this someone that's
00:44:00
just really careful that in that moment is able to be overly cautious. I've already risked risked
00:44:07
further detection by staying here longer to remove this piece and that piece, why
00:44:13
not just take it all so I don't have to get home and and worry what they're going to find at the crime scene." Yeah,
00:44:19
which makes you think that it's premeditation. And if there's premeditation, then it's
00:44:25
somebody that she knew. Again, we see that a lot of times when there's a knife involved, and especially
00:44:33
like take the O.J. Simpson trial or the O.J. Simpson case, and almost decapitation, and a lot of people
00:44:43
point that out to be some kind of rage, again making it personal. Um this is It's very difficult.
00:44:51
If If you really wanted to Okay, let's pretend that this is a premeditated murder
00:44:58
or a premeditated crime that that the offender knew would lead to a murder, Mhm. that you could really, I believe,
00:45:05
narrow your sus- suspect pool significantly. Because that would It would have to be
00:45:11
somebody that either A, knew her routine and knew what would be going on that day, or B, had a very good understanding
00:45:21
of that church and its operations and and how many people were coming in and out at that time of day. Well, it's
00:45:28
difficult to know when they get collections and when they Cuz sometimes churches will get collections for
00:45:35
multiple days and then do a deposit. Mhm. And then So, then you wonder, was there a big donation
00:45:45
of of some kind that she told somebody about? And then they went, "Oh, well, you
00:45:52
needed to deposit that." And then she goes, "Oh, well, we haven't deposited it yet." And that becomes your motivation.
00:45:59
So, here's some speculation that I put into this. If it were not I don't know the workings
00:46:06
of this situation, but the retired bishop that showed up that day, my first thought, had he not been retired and
00:46:14
knowing that this was a regular meeting, but it didn't occur every Sunday, Right.
00:46:18
my first thought was, is that when Pastor Daniels is supposed to turn over monies to the bishop?
00:46:25
And that somebody would have known that about the church and thought, "Well, this is when the This is when the money
00:46:32
is at its highest, right before it's going to be turned in." So, that's the most opportune time if I'm looking for
00:46:38
the most amount of money. With him being retired, I don't know that that would have been the situation,
00:46:43
but this was some kind of regular scheduled meeting. Right. So, I do want to circle
00:46:49
back to Robert Richardson, who we discussed earlier. He is also known as the Florida Kid
00:46:55
for those of you that like nicknames. This is the man who came forward several days after Pastor Daniels' murder to
00:47:01
inform police that he had seen the killer leaving the church covered in blood. He did add some pieces to the story.
00:47:10
Richardson also said that someone had been prowling around the church in the days before the crime, and that he in
00:47:16
fact warned Pastor Daniels about this. That's Okay, hold on. Cuz it seems like a lot of details of the day of and days
00:47:27
before, and that seems a little suspicious to me. Like why wouldn't he have come forward earlier?
00:47:34
That's why I really suspect that Richardson was just looking for the reward money. Okay. And what I mean by
00:47:42
that involved in the No, I think I think this is a dude that probably has fallen on
00:47:47
hard times, and he saw this and and probably wanted to help in some way, but he saw this or heard this on the
00:47:54
street and heard that there was a large reward and thought, "You know what? I'll
00:47:59
I'm going to go up and say that I saw somebody running from the church, and then when they catch this person months
00:48:05
from now, they're going to have to give me the reward Right. because I came forward and and I gave
00:48:09
them what I'm claiming I saw." Now, regarding Robert Richardson, many people believe that Richardson himself is a
00:48:17
strong suspect. Yeah, well, he seems like a real turtle burner, so. Well, another potential
00:48:24
suspect is one Michael Hinton Jr. Mhm. Mr. Hinton has a history of drug abuse and a past conviction for a violent
00:48:32
crime. This is first-degree rape of a minor under 14 years old. Now, his connection to the case is this. Hinton's
00:48:39
mother was a co-founder of Christ Holy Sanctified Church Mhm. was a close friend of Pastor Daniels.
00:48:49
Some have speculated that after his mother passed away, that she may have left the bulk of her
00:48:56
estate to Pastor Daniels and or the church, possibly enraging her son. Right. But I do want to be very, very
00:49:04
clear about this next point. No solid evidence of this has ever been uncovered. This is just pure speculation. Nobody
00:49:14
has There's no paper trail to suggest that his mother did in fact leave money to Daniels or to the church.
00:49:22
And while we're on the topic about the, you know, the church and its money, if if you didn't know the church
00:49:32
by just based off of appearance and and the location, this is not a church that I would anticipate would be holding a
00:49:39
lot of money. No, no, no. Okay. Um one of the more popular online theories states that Pastor Daniels was
00:49:47
murdered as some kind of work of a serial killer. And and this the online theory is very specific. Serial killer
00:49:54
Israel Keyes. Oh, yeah. So, according to Keyes, he committed crimes all over the
00:50:00
United States and he explained to law enforcement after he was caught that his work as a construction contractor
00:50:07
enabled him to move around frequently without suspicion. Keyes would monitor natural disasters
00:50:14
like floods, tornadoes, and hurricanes and then respond to the affected areas to bid on jobs to bid on work. Right.
00:50:22
Just 3 months before Pastor Daniels murder, Anadarko was hit by a series of heavy storms and tornadoes. So, this
00:50:30
could certainly have provided Keyes with a reason to be in the area. Also, worth noting though, Keyes was
00:50:38
reported to have several satanic themed tattoos. So, Yeah, that that I mean, that's a
00:50:46
very interesting theory there. He has And then we know Keyes is a giant turtle boner anyway, so Well, and he
00:50:53
also admittedly used chemicals at crime scenes to destroy potential forensic evidence. Mhm. So, have they done any
00:51:01
DNA testing or fingerprints? Cuz his um assuming his DNA is now in the system. Well, remember OSBI, they couldn't find
00:51:10
any fingerprints or DNA at the scene. Wow. They were searching for those two items
00:51:16
and they they very quickly figured out that they didn't have either of that. Again again, another reason why they'd
00:51:22
take the door though, right? Because if if you have all the all the clothes are gone, the hair is burnt,
00:51:29
you know, there's cleaning solution all over the body, then you go, "Okay, well,
00:51:34
we know they went through this door. So, let's just take the door and test every
00:51:39
part of it." Mhm. And you know, that's frustrating. So, one issue I have to present
00:51:46
regarding Keyes as a as a good suspect. Yeah. Okay, so let's keep in mind, first
00:51:52
of all, it What is the math that he was there at that time and this particular individual was
00:52:01
killed and he he didn't know this victim. Right. There's nothing to suggest that he knew her, knew the area,
00:52:07
knew the church. But he's a monster, man. Yes, he's definitely a monster, but but right
00:52:12
there, that's quite the stretch already. Then on top of that, Keyes seems to only
00:52:17
have targeted white victims. Yeah. And in in in his cases, the female victims were violently
00:52:25
sexually assaulted. Yeah. And his crimes were largely sexually motivated. And none of Keyes known crimes bear any sort
00:52:36
of religious hallmark either. So, it doesn't seem to fit his MO. Right. But but I think
00:52:44
any killer that has a bigger number of kills, there's going to be some outliers. Mhm.
00:52:53
So, possibly. And then again, then it's like well, the taking of the clothes possibly could become sexual at that
00:53:02
point. Mhm. Some other newsworthy items regarding this case, uh I found this particularly
00:53:09
interesting. One reverend said that the murder helped to motivate him to get a concealed carry license. Reverend Brian
00:53:18
Ball says he sometimes carries his weapon during his sermons and regularly carries when he is alone at the church
00:53:26
in which he works. It depends on how what kind of church you're the pastor of. But I but I think, yeah.
00:53:36
If you're going into buildings that are as big I mean, this church was small, but think about some of the churches
00:53:43
that these pastors and priests have to go into by themselves and there's multiple
00:53:49
entrance ways and access way exit ways and there's probably not a ton of security guards all the time. Probably
00:53:56
more, you know, security guards at the bigger churches like during business hours, there might be a couple,
00:54:04
but um they're they're there a lot by themselves alone. Well, and you have several different kinds of churches.
00:54:11
Some that are in troubled areas and they lock their doors and some that are in troubled areas and they leave the doors
00:54:17
open because they're there for the community. Right. So, that really puts someone who's really just trying to do
00:54:25
really good work as a potential victim when anybody could just walk through that door and be one-on-one with
00:54:32
somebody. I actually I applaud this move. I think that, you know, you say what it depends on what kind of church that
00:54:39
that you're running whether you should conceal and carry or not. I think I think an American church, you conceal
00:54:45
and carry. no, it was it was a bad joke, but I was you know, cuz you know, if you go to a
00:54:50
Baptist church, they're up and singing and and vibrant, you know, and if you go to like a Catholic church, they're kind
00:54:56
of like kneeling and sitting and kind of boring. Mhm. That was a bad joke. Well, some
00:55:03
other newsworthy items since uh we have the church, this actual church was torn down in 2010
00:55:11
just months after the murder Mhm. and in its place a memorial to Pastor Daniels was put up.
00:55:18
Uh we should also note that the FBI got involved almost immediately in this case.
00:55:24
And then we have Dr. Cooley Trant and I I don't know if I'm saying the name correctly.
00:55:32
My my handwriting scribbled on this note here. Mhm. This is the doctor that performed the
00:55:37
autopsy. This individual was fired and actually sued in 2010 not in relation to this
00:55:45
crime, not in relation to this case, but I think it's something Did you say the name was Cooley?
00:55:51
Trant. T It looks like I wrote t r a n t. Okay. Not Cooley Malik? Not Cooley Malik? No.
00:56:01
Um and then we have this situation which I find incredibly interesting. In 2012, Daniels mother, Carol Daniels
00:56:10
mother, who was then 85 years young, God bless her, Etta Dunlap, said one thing that has not been discussed is that her
00:56:19
daughter's purse and briefcase were missing from the church. Dunlap said that she has heard nothing
00:56:26
from law enforcement in several months. Quote, "I haven't heard a thing, not one
00:56:31
single thing," she said. "No one seems to be doing anything." And this is this too is interesting.
00:56:38
Dunlap said the only clue that her daughter provided before her death was that two people would often come to the
00:56:46
church when she was there. Quote, "Two men," she said, "would come to her church all of the time. One would sit in
00:56:53
the back and one would go to the piano and she told them that they would have to be saved or they could not come and
00:56:59
play the piano anymore." Now, she goes on to say that she never asked her daughter what the names were
00:57:08
of these individuals and she says to this very day, it it really bothers her. And she says, "I often worry
00:57:17
and wonder about those two people." She did go on to say in this same interview that she is confident that the
00:57:24
crime will eventually be solved. She says she's got a feeling that the person is going to come forward and confess at
00:57:32
some point. Well, I think that her gut feeling and I think for whatever reason, I think the universe gives us
00:57:41
answers sometimes that we need and this gut feeling that these two boys that were coming into the church are
00:57:47
important means something, but I also think the gut feeling that she had that this will
00:57:52
be solved, the information that came out in 2012 kind of points to this idea that it's
00:57:59
going to be solved at some point. Yeah, so there's been a lot of things that have come about in this case since 2012,
00:58:07
since that interview with with Daniels mother. And the first thing is that investigators eventually did release the
00:58:16
surveillance video to the public, which does show something suspicious. The security cameras at the nearby
00:58:23
convenience store captured a blurry white figure leaving the vicinity of the church at the time of the crime. Now, I
00:58:31
want to be clear about something. When we say blurry white figure, I've watched this video from time you
00:58:37
know, multiple times. It's a good distance away. It's almost like you're seeing like a
00:58:43
like a ghost or something. Like it's Right. You know, if picture picture you're watching something in black and
00:58:49
white and all you can tell is that there's something lighter than its surroundings and it's a human form
00:58:55
moving. Right. So, you're not you're not getting any description of this individual of of the
00:59:02
person leaving the church. So, it's very low qual quality video. This prevented investigators from making
00:59:12
any type of identification on who this person is. But what's interesting is what the video
00:59:19
does show, what you can depict from the video. And that is that there are several people out on the streets and
00:59:27
nearby when this person is fleeing the area. Right. So, you have several potential witnesses
00:59:34
that were captured by the cameras. Now, and these these people are closer and and and much more
00:59:41
detectable where they may have been able to identify some of these people and then speak with them.
00:59:46
Yeah, what's sad is in a lot of these areas that have high crime, um the people don't trust the cops, so
00:59:55
they don't come forward with information. So, what we end up learning from this is
01:00:00
that according to the district attorney, he says, quote, "There are a lot of people out at that time. Logic says
01:00:07
somebody saw something." Well, it took a long time, but people started to talk and some of them were
01:00:15
talking to the authorities. The DA says, quote, "They were hearing the scuttlebutt around town. They know
01:00:22
who did this. People were saying it was two people." DA Hicks says the two in question were
01:00:29
violent drug dealers and people were afraid to come forward. Hicks says investigators considered
01:00:36
several motives through the years. Eventually, they were calling it a foiled robbery
01:00:43
where the suspects, likely looking for drug money, came into the church and killed Daniels. In 2015, a woman offered
01:00:51
a potential break in the case. She actually witnessed a suspect with a black blouse
01:00:59
and a knife that had blood on it. And it was around the time of Pastor Daniels' murder.
01:01:06
DA Hicks says the woman led investigators to a shed located behind a home in Anadarko.
01:01:12
She advised that those items were taken into the shed and burned. Okay, so we have a witness that comes
01:01:19
forward and says, "I I saw somebody that should be suspected of this crime." Right. Saw them with the murder weapon.
01:01:26
Saw them with items that I believe were taken from the church and then burned in
01:01:30
the shed. She shows the investigators where the shed is. The problem is we're now 6 years later.
01:01:37
We're now 6 years after the fact. Right. They searched that shed. They can't come up with any evidence from
01:01:43
that shed to present uh to build a case against this individual. So, not only did that search come up
01:01:50
empty, the woman, the witness, passed away just days later after giving investigators that
01:01:57
information. Now, I believe that she was able to name the suspect. It wasn't just I saw somebody
01:02:06
that looked like this going in the shed. Mhm. she was able to name them because we do
01:02:11
have a report that says the OSBI polygraphed several witnesses and the suspects themselves.
01:02:19
And neither offered a confession. So, DA Hicks says, "It seems In regards to this case, it seems like every time
01:02:27
we take a step forward, we're taking two steps back." In 2017, at the request of DA Hicks, a
01:02:34
multi-county grand jury took up the case. But then another setback. The main suspect,
01:02:41
who was Denice Darnell Cooper, died of cancer before grand jurors could hear her testimony.
01:02:48
Hicks knew he wouldn't get an indictment. And now they would have to find another avenue to prosecute suspect
01:02:56
number two. At the proceedings, other possible witnesses were called. This included
01:03:02
then prisoner Kevin Mayhan. But he, like others before him, offered nothing of value. Now, I wonder why he
01:03:11
specifically mentioned Mhm. I wonder if he's actually suspect number two. Yeah. Because they never name,
01:03:20
well, to where I could find suspect number two, but they specifically mention him as possible witness was
01:03:28
called before the grand jury. He said nothing to them. Right, or he's a prisoner
01:03:33
informant, right? Mhm. Yeah, could be a a a a jailhouse snitch or something. right. Um So, when asked
01:03:43
uh when the DA was asked, he did say he thinks this cold case will be solved at some point. Hicks said, quote, "I look
01:03:51
at it this way, it is solved. My question is will we be able to bring justice bring it to justice?"
01:03:59
And he says, "I'm not going to stop trying." The DA's task force investigators are
01:04:04
still working the case. All those who loved Carol Daniels are still searching for justice. Anyone with
01:04:11
information is asked to call the OSBI tip line at 1-800-522-8017 or email tips@osbi.
01:04:23
ok.gov. And a quick quote from Bishop Wilson. Quote, "I want them to remember Carol
01:04:30
was a very faithful lady and she was a very sweet lady. And she's somebody everybody should have
01:04:38
gotten to know. I just remember a very ambitious sweet lady." This week we have some recommended
01:04:58
listening for everybody out there because when we were doing research for this case, this week's case,
01:05:03
it reminded us of three different cases that we've covered before. And I think that you'll find some very interesting
01:05:09
similarities between those three cases and this one. One is Missy Bevers' case. Also, we have Todd Kohlhepp, the real
01:05:17
estate serial killer. And we also have the case called The Devil Did It. And those are from 2018
01:05:25
and from 2017. For our back catalog, download the Stitcher app for free and you can listen
01:05:31
to episode 1 to episode now all for free on the Stitcher app. And check out on Stitcher Premium our weekly show called
01:05:40
Off the Record where we do updates and talk about true crime documentaries and a bunch of nonsense. Yes, it's a show
01:05:48
about nothing. Uh also, we want to give a shout-out to our friends at Looney and
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pick up one of their finely crafted dog collars. Yeah, check out looneyandroo.com
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or I will post a picture of these awesome collars on our Instagram page. And we can't wait for you to come back
01:06:31
and join us next week. Until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter.