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[Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
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for listening. I'm your host, Nick. And with me in the garage as always, my friend who I have to say is like the
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Paul Simon of the show. Still crazy after all these years. He is the captain. Well, you are my gar uncle,
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sir. Good to be seen. And it's good to see you. [Music] Today, Captain, we are drinking green by
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Treehouse Brewing Company. Garage grade four and 1/2 bottle caps out of five. This is truly a crosscontinental IPA
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made with Australian and American hops. This citrus heavy IPA opens up the glass
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with notes of pineapple, tangerine, and orange rind. >> Full on man. >> And it's sharply bitter. And it's also
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about 8% ABV. So check that out. Green is brought to us by some of our very good garage friends. We have Rebecca in
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Victoria, Australia. Also, there's Crystal in Alberta, Canada. Next up, we have Dugan in Baldwin, Missouri, who
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says he wants to give a big shout out, a big PBR shout out. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Let's head further west and say hi to
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Kathy in Oceanside, California. Also, a big mental high five to Christine. Christine says she knows everybody loves
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the captain, but Nick is her favorite. Of course. >> She also says, "Some true crime podcasts
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leave you wondering if there are any good people left in the world, and True Crime Garage shows that there are at
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least two." >> I don't know who she's talking about. >> She must know two two people.
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>> Yeah, she must know some good people. >> And last but not least, we have Kristen
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and her sister Leslie who listen to True Crime Garage while they are commuting. So, a big thank you to Rebecca, Crystal,
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Do Good, Kathy, Christine, Kristen, and Lesie. Thank you guys for buying us around for this week's show. And if you
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want to chip in and buy us around for next week's show, go to trueimegage.com and click on the donate button. I never
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get tired of hearing people talk about listening to the show while they commute to work or listening why they're getting
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paid at work. So, for all you people out there that are listening at work or on your commute or doing dishes or whatever
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the heck you're doing, we like your jib. All right, Captain. Season 3 coming toward an end here, but we wanted to go
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the extra mile for you guys cuz we know you're out there. You're working hard. You're doing your thing. It's the
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busiest time of year, right? The holidays are upon us. And we wanted to show our dedication to you. We're in the
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garage. We locked ourselves in here for the whole damn week. Thank god there's been beer showing up. The beer keeps
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just piling in. >> It's fueling the fire. >> Well, yeah. You guys support us and this
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is our way of supporting you guys and we appreciate it. And that's enough of the
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business. All right, gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer, and let's talk some true crime.
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[Music] [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] In Seattle this morning, police are hunting a mass murderer believed to have
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killed as many as 21 prostitutes in the last 22 months. David Burrington reports.
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been called the Green River Killer. Ever since the first bodies, five of them were pulled from this river. Since then,
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seven more bodies have been discovered nearby. All those of young prostitutes, according to police, and the number of
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missing increases steadily. Two were added to the list this week. All the victims worked this strip near the
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Seattle airport, crammed with hotels, motel, and strip joints. Angry residents are demanding police do more to stop the
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killings. One young prostitute who operates along the strips said she's terrified every time she's picked up.
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>> I don't know. I'm just I guess I'm just lucky, but I never came across that certain freak.
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Police say the victims are similar. Runaways, very young, disturbed. Most were strangled, their bodies left new. A
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police task force has little hard evidence, but it thinks a single psychopathic killer is responsible.
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However, it would be illogical and improper from an investigative perspective to become that tunnel vision
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and exclude the possibility of any copycat crimes or the possibility of a multiple suspect. Police suspect other
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prostitutes might be able to provide leads, but because of their profession, they've been uncooperative.
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David Burrington, NBC News, Seattle. [Music] Police in Washington State believe they
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found the remains of another victim of the so-called Green River killer. The victim identified Monday as 17-year-old
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Cindy Anne Smith was last seen in March of 1984. Police believe that Smith is the killer's 37th known victim. All of
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them women ranging from 16 to 36 years of age. The murders began in summer of 1982, and since then, an army of
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detectives and a multi-million dollar computer system have been unable to crack the case.
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[Music] In this country, in Washington state, still another victim has been identified
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in the nation's longest list of unsolved murders. The Green River killings. 37 women have died, nine missing, all
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thought to be victims of the same killer. John Sander of KNGTV in Seattle has the latest.
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>> It was a familiar routine for the Green River Task Force, sifting through any
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remaining evidence at a site where someone, in this case three young boys, had stumbled across human remains. After
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the passage of 3 years, they would not find much more than a skeleton. Late Monday, the remains would be identified
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as those of 17-year-old Cindy Anne Smith, last seen in March 1984 hitchhiking from her mother's home to
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that of her sister in Seattle. She is victim number 37. Cindy disappeared from a strip of
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highway south of Seattle, where no fewer than 18 other young women, mostly prostitutes, dropped out of sight
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beginning in the summer of 1982. The first grizzly discoveries of their bodies was along the picturesque Green
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River, hence the name that has come to represent untold horror to many in the Northwest. The Green River murders have
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included victims ranging in age from 16 through 36. Most of their bodies have been recovered in wilderness dumping
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grounds in groups of two, three, and up to seven. The Green River Task Force has
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employed up to 50 full-time detectives and a multi-million dollar computer system to crack the case. They have
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served at least two search warrants, but as of this morning, the killer remains unidentified. And Cindy Smith's
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disappearance was the last one in this area 3 years ago. John Sander for NBC News in Seattle.
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In Seattle. in Seattle. Seattle. [Music] It's the early 80s and Ted Bundy is safe. Let's say safe behind bars, right?
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He was convicted of killing the girls at the Ka Omega sorority house. Not only was he seen in the area prior to the
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crimes, but he was also seen fleeing the Kyomega sorority house with the uh weapon that he used to attack the women.
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>> Yeah, the oak log. >> And then he goes on to represent himself in trial for these murders. and he
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thinks things are going his way, but everybody else has a better perception of what's actually taking place.
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>> Well, everybody else is not a sociopath and a psychopath. >> And not only do we have the eyewitnesses
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that see him fleeing, but uh one thing that's presented in court is he had bit one of the girls while he was in the
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sorority house. One of the young women that he attacked, he bit her. And they were able to use the his dental records
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to show that it was he in fact who had caused that wound. >> You mean Theodore Bundy?
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>> Yeah. >> Not him, but Theodore Bundy. >> Yeah. So, let's say he's safe behind
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bars. And he's on death row in Florida. >> But Bundy's never safe behind bars because this like this guy is a slippery
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cat, right? >> Yeah. He escaped twice uh prior to this. And thank God he never escaped again.
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And finally, they must have taken him seriously and saw him for exactly what he is and what we described him as the
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devil in disguise. And he is behind bars on death row in Florida. Well, in early
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uh in the early 80s, this would be July 15th, 1982. There is a body that is found floating in the Green River. This
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is near uh Seattle, Washington. >> And this is where Bundy is from. >> Yeah. He started his murders in the
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state of Washington. and very close to this site as well. Now, this body is spotted um by a civilian and it's
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underneath a bridge, but it's a river. You know, this is moving water, so you wouldn't always expect to see something
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just floating there. You would think the water would carry it. However, this body
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was snagged on growth u you know, things that were growing in the river at the time.
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>> Mhm. >> And this would end up being Wendy Lee Caulfield. um and she disappeared July
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7th, 1982. So she disappeared just 8 days before her body is found. Now in a very short time they would end up
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finding five bodies in the same river. And again, this is the Green River. And this is how this unknown serial killer
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gets his name, the Green River killer. Now, this killer would have to be killing with such frequency with with
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with an an exceedingly quick frequency because shortly after they find the body of Wendy Koffield, they find the these
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other four bodies. Well, in one situation, they find two bodies uh in the water and then in another situation
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there's a body that is spotted and the police go down to investigate to pull the body from the river and try to
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figure out what's going on. Well, in the course of pulling that body from the river, one of the officers uh and this
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is uh Lieutenant Riker, he he actually practically steps on another body as he's going to as they're working to get
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this other body out. So, as said, they pull five bodies uh within a short time period in the 1982s back uh out of the
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Green River. Well, and at this point they're probably thinking, you know, just because of the proximity
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that these are all connected. So now we have a bigger problem. We have a serial killer on our hands.
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>> Yeah. These these are all women that were either sex workers or expect or thought to be runaways.
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>> Uh so people that might have been living a higher risk style lifestyle. Um, and
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>> yeah, but you hear in the trailer, I mean, even back then, um, they viewed the sex workers as almost this low lower
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level human. I mean, there were they said some degrading stuff just in the news broadcast.
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>> Yeah. And I think at in that area of the country, you know, there are a lot of
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sex workers. Well, there were back then. I don't know currently what's going on.
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Uh, but this was it was something, you know, when they found a dead woman somewhere, whether it be on the side of
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the road or in in the river or near the woods or in the woods, there were so many sex workers that they almost kind
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of just have assumed immediately that this is another, you know, another sex worker that's been killed. Now, shortly
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after this, the killings would not stop with these five. But what would take place is they stopped finding bodies in
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the river and started finding them near the river in wooded areas. >> Right? >> October 1st, 1984,
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there is a man on death row that is Theodore Bundy that we talked about in Florida and he writes a letter to what
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is now the Green River Task Force. Um, and let's keep in mind, one of one of the people that were involved in Ted's
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case that was hunting Ted Bundy and couldn't get to him fast enough, >> right, >> was Robert Keell. And now he would, I
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think I may have misspoke in one of our earlier TED episodes and said that he was a FBI agent, but he, in fact, he was
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a a detective for King County and he would go on to work for the attorney general's office in uh in the state of
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Washington. M. So naturally, this would bring him after Ted's locked up and and put away in Florida. This this puts
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Robert Keell in a situation where he's assisting in the Green River uh case and he's a part of that task force. Now,
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there were a lot of people involved in this case and a lot of detectives. This this almost mirrors Bundy's
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investigation. Remember we talked about all these officers, >> the Ted murders. >> Yeah. working together and they're
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they're taking in all these tips and all these clues and then they had to figure
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out a way to categorize everything so that they could efficiently go through the information and try to link things
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together. Well, this is similar where when they found one body, you might have one detective on the case and then
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there's two more bodies. Well, we've got to pull in some more detectives. Right.
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And after you find body after body after body, then you you have this whole group
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uh assisting in it and and you know, largely this is the Green River task force.
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>> Yeah. And well, and the fact that with the Ted murders, you know, especially when there's a murder taking place in
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one area of the country and then there's a murder taking place in another area of
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the country, you have now multiple task force, not just detectives. >> Yeah. And so he he writes this letter.
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Theodore Bundy writes this letter to the Green River Task Force and he's basically saying, you know what, I'm
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from that area >> and you know who I am and maybe I can offer some some insight.
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>> Sorry to laugh. >> Well, I I only say that because I don't know what at the time what he is willing
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to say of him and his crimes. >> Mhm. >> But clearly they know who he is and things he's been capable of. and he
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knows that they've hunted him for so long and he's saying, you know, maybe I can offer some insight to help you find
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this person. >> And maybe at this point, you know, you know, Ted denied his involvement, then
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he defends himself and now he's in jail. He's on death row. Maybe at this point he is just coming to the terms that this
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is who I am. This is what I've done. I might as well just accept it. >> Yeah. I see. I go back and forth with
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where I think Ted's head was at at this time because remember we said there was that rumor that he had spoken to his
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attorney and asked about, you know, what state would they put most likely put you
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to death, right? >> And they the attorney said Florida. And then Ted ends up in Florida and committ
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>> and and also crimes that he wasn't that careful about >> all the other stuff. It seemed like he
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was these this seemed like a a murderous rampage. Yeah. Yeah, >> in the Kyhoga or Kayamega uh killings,
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it seemed like just a crazy rampage and that set it he set himself up to, you know, for people to be able to find
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weapon the the the murder weapon and for them to have eyewitnesses. So, it really
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did seem like I'm just committing this crime so then this state can put me to death.
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>> Yeah, possibly. I mean that that's the thought is if he did in fact go there with that intention then he was a man
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that had a death wish. Um I personally think that beforehand you know he was he was kind of dabbling in killing. He was
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killing one at a time and then this was like an addict that that ends up binge killing uh once he gets to Florida. uh
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he offers his assistance and he went in the beginning, you know, they're especially Keell, he's a little he's a
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little concerned about talking to Ted. They definitely all the investigators do want to talk to him. However, they know
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how >> how manipulating and what a liar and in >> con man. Yeah. Yeah. >> That Ted Bundy is. So, their first
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thought is, you know what, he's just going to try to play us one more time. He just wants us to go all the way to
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Florida. I mean, you couldn't get any more further in the United States almost when you talk about Washington State all
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the way down to Florida. Yeah. >> He just wants us to stop what we're doing, go all the way down to Florida
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and talk to him and he's just going to BS us and give us the runaround for, you know, days and days and days.
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And however, there's this thought that you know what, even if he does try to play us, maybe we
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could go down there and even if we don't learn anything about the Green River Killer, maybe we can learn some things
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about Ted Bundy because now keep in mind there are still B to this day there are
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bodies of Bundy's that have never been found. >> Mhm. And so they thought, you know, very
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least case scenario, worst case scenario, we go down there and maybe we can recover some of these victims of Ted
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Bundy. Yeah. On record, it seems like he confessed to about 30 some sites, some uh sources will say 35 is roughly the
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Ted Bundy murder count, but you know, you know, we're not at the point where, but he's he was confessing all the way
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up to his death sentence. And was that was some of those [ __ ] Who knows? But he he was constantly confessing. I
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mean, his kill count could be in the 40s, 50s. Who knows? >> Well, and the the thing that makes me
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wonder about the death wish is I always thought that this was a way for Ted Bundy to delay his death sentence. That,
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okay, now he's on death row and he, you know, the the end date is coming. It's it's approaching. And I could only
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imagine how fast that seems to approach for somebody that can you imagine knowing the day and time that you're
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going to die. >> Mhm. That would be awful. >> So, well, and he deserves every minute,
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right? Definitely. >> He definitely deserves every minute of it, but it's a strange situation to try
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try to put yourself in that mindset. So, he's down there and now you know what? How can he delay his death sentence,
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>> right? So, is he just talking to this task force, you know, in order to delay
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the ne the then inevitable? >> Yeah. And I mean, he could say, you know, I can I can help you with this
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case. Uh I can also assist you with finding some of the bodies that that I'm in charge of that were, you know, things
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that I have done now. Um, but but Ted ever being the con man, you know, he's going to when you start talking to him
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about bodies and stuff like that, he's he's never really willing to fully divulge everything that he knows. He's
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always got to keep something to himself. You know, one of his confessions states,
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now we got to keep in mind here when he's on death row in Florida, >> and to this date, you know, even before
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he was executed, he was never convicted of every single one of his crimes. Um, so one thing he would do, there's
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there's one confession he gave which I always found interesting was he would say, you know, in Washington I killed 11
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women and young girls, right? I killed 11 girls and young women. >> Uh, here's eight of their names. You
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know, that's the kind of confessions Ted Bundy would give. He's never going to give you everything. He's going to hold
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on to something. Um, and the other thing too is >> Well, then the question also becomes,
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did he even know all the victim's names? >> Well, and the other thing he would do
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is, you know, I, oh, I can help lead you to these bodies, but, you know, I was driving a lot back then. I committed
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these crimes in multiple states. You know, you're going to have to give me something. and you're going to have to
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provide me with some maps and I'm going to need some information from you and maybe you could show me some of the case
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file and I could I that might help uh jog my memory so I can I can tell you where this body would be located and
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help you find it. >> And maybe he was also using this, you know, even if he wasn't involved in the
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case. I mean, you know, he he had this love of reading the detective books and stuff like that. Maybe some of this was
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just a way to have resources. you're in this cell >> and you're for entertainment. Hey, I I
00:22:05
keep talking to these police and they keep writing me and they keep visiting me and they keep calling me and it's
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something to do. >> Well, and one thing that he did when he was younger, you know, before the well,
00:22:16
probably when these crimes first started for Ted back in Washington was he, you know, we talked about him working on the
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crisis hotline. You know, people could call in that were suicidal or or having, you know, a crisis. Um, but he also
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worked on some form of uh it wasn't like a task force, but he did like paperwork
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for uh rapes and sexual assaults and things like that. So, he was kind of studying these these attacks as he was
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out committing them. >> Well, and he might get some kind of sexual gratification or sexual stimulus.
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>> Oh, he definitely from reading this stuff. Yeah, he he had all kinds of motives for wanting to quote unquote
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help the police. He he definitely had all kinds of weird Ted Bundy motives for why why he was doing this.
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>> I mean, like I said before and I and I'll say it again. I mean, not a not I never found him that interesting. And
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then we started diving into him and he is complete he's a complete monster and he's super fascinating, you know, and
00:23:22
that's not to try to glorify him because I think he's scum of the earth, but I mean this guy had some layers. Well,
00:23:30
they went down there with the expectation that maybe we'll talk, you know, we'll go down there, we'll talk
00:23:34
with them once or maybe over the course of a day or two and just see what's going on and then if if it is what we
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think it is where Ted's trying to play us and just, you know, mess with our minds, then we're just going to get out
00:23:46
of there and ignore it. However, we have a duty to do and if there is somebody that knows this person definitely knows
00:23:52
more about murder than the investigators that are investigating murder, right? So
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we we would be doing a disservice to our investigation and to the people of this
00:24:00
community if we don't talk to him. And furthermore, as said, Ted was from the area. He knew the area. This was a guy
00:24:07
that was constantly driving and he was putting bodies in the woods as well. And that's what happened with the Green
00:24:14
River Killer. He started off putting the bodies in the water and then he started
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putting them in the wooded areas near the river. >> Well, let's get into that right after a
00:24:23
quick beer break. All right, cheers everybody. Back into the garage. >> Cheers. The investigators that are
00:24:31
researching the Green River killer and trying to apprehend this man, uh, they are down in Florida and they're going to
00:24:37
be talking with Theodore Bundy, somebody that knows murder better than most. Um and and they want to well here's they're
00:24:46
going to sit down and they want to approach him and explain to him that we are only here to talk to you to see if
00:24:52
you can help with this investigation. We're not going to put up with any of your shenanigans. We're not going to
00:24:57
play any of your games. We don't want to hear a whole lot of Bundy talk. We are here to see how you can help us
00:25:04
apprehend this guy. and they they almost come off a little like they they give him the impression of we don't really
00:25:11
believe you can help us like what can you offer us which which I think is smart. I think that's how you challenge
00:25:18
somebody like a Ted Bundy, you know, because Ted likes to show his bravado and he likes to show how in intelligent
00:25:25
he is and how smart he is. And so to challenge him almost makes him >> well, he's a narcissist.
00:25:31
>> Well, it corrals him a bit, right? It corrals him a bit and it and it makes him uh he's going to have to talk about
00:25:37
the things that you want. He's going to have to hold your interest or you're going to leave. You have you have no
00:25:43
reason to talk to him other than this investigation. >> Um they they would talk for hours and
00:25:48
hours and hours and we're not going to talk for hours and hours and hours. So I will sum up some of the
00:25:53
>> Yes, we are. That's what we do. That's that's our job. Well, I'm going to sum up for you uh
00:26:00
some of the some of the bits of information that Theodore Bundy offers to the Green River Task Force. Now, the
00:26:07
first thing that they he says to them, now keep in mind >> the green the riverman, we have to talk
00:26:14
about the riverman, right? Because that's what Bundy starts to call the Green River killer. He refers to him as
00:26:20
the riverman, right? And the investigators talking to Bundy, they will they will adopt this nickname and
00:26:26
refer to him as the Riverman. >> Just not a fan of nicknames, you know. >> So Bundy says that that the Riverman
00:26:33
>> Mhm. >> his first MMO was that he would get these girls, and again, most of them are
00:26:38
sex workers or presumed runaways. and he would get these girls, pick them up on the strip somewhere, and then he would
00:26:46
take them, we don't know where, and he would kill them, and they would end up in the river. Well, after the first
00:26:52
five, we start to see him, he's changed what he's adapted a little bit. He's now
00:26:57
putting the bodies in the woods and near the river. And they were having a hard time finding these bodies, but when they
00:27:04
would come across one, they would usually come across a second or a third as well. So, he's dumping them in what
00:27:11
what Bundy would refer to as clusters. Now, Bundy, it's been speculated that Bundy probably did the same thing uh
00:27:19
when he would when he would un unload a body or two that they would end up in these cluster dumps.
00:27:24
>> Yeah. And if you if you're watching the killing season, they talk about this with the Gilgo Beach murders.
00:27:29
>> Mhm. And one thing that Bundy says is that you you may want to uh know that he
00:27:37
is probably the riverman is probably returning and visiting these victims after death,
00:27:44
>> right? >> And he's and he wouldn't say why, but he's saying that they probably would
00:27:48
visit them and spend some time with the body. Well, what we know about Bundy is he would, and this is going to be
00:27:56
graphic, but he would have sex with the victims after they're dead. Uh, he was also known to sometimes put makeup on
00:28:03
them. Um, so that's where Bundy's coming from on this idea. Again, if you know, I
00:28:11
don't mean to bring up the killing season again, but some people use it as like a trophy room. Here's my cluster of
00:28:17
bodies. So when I come back to visit, I don't have to, you know, go a mile here and a mile there to see two different
00:28:24
victims. I put them close enough to each other. So when I go, I can go look at my
00:28:30
trophies. >> Well, the the other thing, too, is that the killer can return to the dump site
00:28:36
not only to have sex with the corpse, but to also kind of see what's going on. Has the is the body gone? Is has it been
00:28:44
moved? has there been any activity in this area since the last time I've been here? And so, it's kind of a way of
00:28:51
checking on what's going on as well as doing these other activities. Now, at the time,
00:28:57
this really was some helpful insight to the investigators because this is not something that they considered with the
00:29:03
Green River Killer and it also taught them something about Bundy at the same time. That's when they started figuring
00:29:09
out Bundy was returning to his victims and he was spending time what he called spending time with the bodies. And one
00:29:16
thing to to kind of underline what the captain was saying that we know about Ted Bundy was one of the sisters of of
00:29:23
his victims, a sister of one of his victims identified the body and noticed that there was makeup and finger paint
00:29:31
on >> on the girl's nails and on Yeah, nail polish. Sorry. And >> finger paint. Well, actually the book I
00:29:37
was ref reading referred to it as fingerpaint. >> They called it fingerpaint really.
00:29:41
>> Yeah. Uh well these were written by by police officers that written by a man.
00:29:48
He's like, "Hey honey, are you over there fingerpainting yourself?" >> But there was there was lipstick and
00:29:53
there was makeup and there was fingernail polish that did not belong to the victim. And even though her
00:29:58
belongings disappeared with her, >> it you know, he didn't use the he used some other, you know, fingernail polish,
00:30:06
some other makeup that wasn't hers. So, we know that he was doing these things. Another method of detection that Ted
00:30:13
Bundy was offering to the police was he was saying that this person, this killer
00:30:18
is obsessed with sex and violence. And so if you are desperate, you know, if you are in fact as desperate as you are
00:30:26
telling me you are in this investigation, you may want to set up some kind of surveillance operation
00:30:32
outside of of uh pornography theaters or um theaters that are showing these these
00:30:40
horrible uh horror flicks, you know, where there's a slasher film >> because back in the day you would
00:30:46
actually have to go to a theater in most cases to watch this kind of material. Yeah, they had the triple X theaters
00:30:53
that you could go to. And again, but we know with these type of killers that they have this this mental uh proclivity
00:31:01
about them that where they have it's sex and violence and it's violence and sex and it's all wrapped up in one. It's all
00:31:07
in one big convoluted mess for them. Some of them cannot >> cannot get it up without the violence in
00:31:14
the sex. Some of them cannot they they cannot achieve whatever they're looking for. They can't be gratified without the
00:31:20
sex and the violence all mixed up into one. And this I don't think that this was so helpful as much as the returning
00:31:28
to the bodies. >> Yeah, but it gives you Right. Well, well, you got the returning to the
00:31:31
bodies, but you it gives you a a place to start looking. >> Uh the the officers and Ted Bundy are
00:31:38
not always going to agree on everything. And actually, one of the arguments they
00:31:42
got into was the Green River Task Force, they they reached a point in the investigation where they thought that
00:31:48
the killings had stopped because they were finding bodies with such frequency >> and then all of a sudden they're not
00:31:55
finding bodies and they wanted to know, you know, Ted Bundy, why would this guy stop? Why would he stop killing? We're
00:32:03
not finding anybody. >> And Ted says, you know, he's not stopped killing. and they said, "Yeah, we know
00:32:09
that he has. We haven't found any new bodies." No, they've not stopped. He's not stopped killing. Ted insisted that
00:32:16
what had actually happened is that the killer had adapted and that either he was dumping them in places where you
00:32:22
just couldn't find the bodies or he's slightly changed his victimology where he's no longer focusing on sex workers.
00:32:32
Maybe he's gone after a younger victim or now he's only going after delinquents or people that are, you know, young
00:32:39
runaways. >> Well, we also see with serial killers also, they they get invested in their
00:32:44
own life, family life or personal matters, work. Sometimes they get involved in different things and that
00:32:52
that's also a reason why sometimes there's breaks in the killings. And later on, we would learn that two of
00:32:59
those statements were in fact true. Uh that uh the Green River killer did in fact start seeking out younger victims
00:33:06
for a period of time. The other thing, this is this is where the police thought they were going to get their big break,
00:33:13
and I really think that they would have. However, there's there's outside factors
00:33:18
that can screw things up in an investigation. Mhm. >> Now, you know, remember Bundy gave him
00:33:24
the tidbit of the the killer's probably returning to the crime scene and he's probably returning to the crime scene
00:33:30
and and spending time with the bodies. >> Yeah. Which is sick. >> So Ted says, "If you really want to
00:33:37
catch this guy, this is what I would do. The next time you find a body, do not announce it to anybody. Do not tell
00:33:45
anybody that you found a body." Mhm. >> Furthermore, don't even remove the body.
00:33:51
Don't move it at all because if you if you move it at all, he will know >> what you should do is is leave the body
00:33:59
alone and you should stake out the area and wait for him to return. Now, this might take this might take days. It
00:34:06
could, you know, >> it could take months. Yeah. >> And he and he may not be coming back
00:34:10
there just to spend time with that body. It could take months. He could be coming
00:34:14
back to put another body there. >> Right. It could be the start of a cluster. Yeah.
00:34:18
>> Well, the police are going to use this tactic and I really think this would have worked. However, there was there's
00:34:26
an outside factor involved in this investigation and as with most investigations, especially one of this
00:34:32
size, it's the media. >> Well, what had happened was they had found a body and they had every
00:34:39
intention of just staking out the area and waiting for the killer to return. However, once they started their
00:34:45
stakeout and surveilling the area, media somehow got a hold of it. I don't think
00:34:50
that they knew in fact that there was a body there, but they saw police activity
00:34:54
out in these areas that were were compatible with what the Green River killer was doing,
00:35:00
>> right? >> And they basically the the police are trying to surveil the area and the media
00:35:06
is trying to surveil them. >> Yeah. They're trying to figure out why the cops are there. So unfortunately,
00:35:12
this is going to shut down that operation. They're not going to be able to sit there and watch this body and
00:35:18
watch this area as they're being watched by the media. And you know how the media
00:35:22
are. If if there's one person from the media that starts watching you, well then they, you know, it's they're like
00:35:28
vultures. They you start seeing the second and then a third and it kind of kind of gives you away. It kind of calls
00:35:34
your bluff there, right? Uh so real quick here, these are some things that that uh Ted Bundy was able to assist the
00:35:42
Green River task force with. Uh he had mentioned that the person would return to the dump site and that he would
00:35:49
potentially spend time with the bodies. He's going to come back there to dump other bodies because he's do using this
00:35:55
cluster dump uh as Ted would call it. And later we would hear other serial killers call this as well as a cluster
00:36:02
dump. Um he had also suggested that that sex and violence is all one big thing for this guy and this is really all this
00:36:10
guy thinks about and fantasizes about and so if you are desperate then maybe you check out who's coming and going
00:36:17
from triple X theaters or slasher films. Um, the other thing he would he would talk about, and this is something that
00:36:23
we talked about when we were discussing Ted Bundy in the last episode, is he said, you know, you are looking for
00:36:29
somebody that drives a lot, that is constantly in their vehicle. You're looking for somebody that that might
00:36:36
have to acquire new vehicles more often than one would be expected because he's putting so many miles and so much wear
00:36:43
and tear on a vehicle. You're looking for somebody that might need to replace the tires very often. in in their
00:36:50
vehicle uh or has access to multiple vehicles. >> The other thing, and now this was
00:36:55
something that the Green River task force already knew and they had already implemented in their investigation, was
00:37:01
that Bundy said this is somebody that is very comfortable around sex workers, meaning that he was a John, that he was
00:37:08
probably a John before he started killing. And at other times, he might be a John and not pick up a woman and kill
00:37:16
her. He he might he might return her to where he picked her up from, right? Uh that sometimes he's killing and
00:37:22
sometimes he's not. But he's somebody that they are they're not afraid of seeing him on the strip and seeing him
00:37:29
where he's picking up these young women, which is a statement that we knew to be
00:37:34
true, something that we knew would hold water because the task force, they believed, you know, once once the uh TV
00:37:43
started telling everybody, the the news and the media and the newspapers started
00:37:47
announcing that these sex workers are being picked up and they're being killed and they're being dumped in river and
00:37:53
then in the woods. They really believed that the killings would stop. Why? Because at some point the the working
00:38:00
girls would quit getting into vehicles. And they >> Yeah, but that's not going to happen.
00:38:05
>> Well, you and I know that. And back then they didn't know that that this was just
00:38:10
something they expected because they thought, well, this is this is as bad as it can get. And so what they did,
00:38:15
>> these workers are already living a super high-risk life anyways. But the investigators even took it a step
00:38:21
further where they went down to the strip and they were telling the other they were telling the workers what was
00:38:28
going on. You know, this is the stuff we're seeing. We're looking for a very bad man. It could be two. You know, they
00:38:34
at the beginning they didn't even rule out the possibility of there being two killers because the killings were
00:38:39
happening happening so fast and so often >> and they thought, you know, once we once
00:38:45
we inform the community as to what's going on that this is going to slow the killer or it's going to scare the killer
00:38:52
or it's going to scare the victims, the potential victims that would get in his vehicle.
00:38:57
It becomes obvious to the investigators that after a while that while they're asking Ted Bundy to help them look for
00:39:04
the Green River killer, they also start to figure out that sometimes Bundy's referring to himself.
00:39:12
>> And what we mean by this is that, you know, it it's not Bundy saying, "Oh, you're looking for a 5 foot10 white guy
00:39:20
and he lives in this neighborhood and he's married or he's divorced or whatever." He's not giving a specific
00:39:25
profile of the person. He's just saying, you know, judging by the victims, the number of victims, and where the bodies
00:39:33
are located, this is what I think this guy is doing. And he can only he can only surmise what this guy is doing by
00:39:41
either guessing, you know, what the what the killer's movements might be or by going back in his own history and
00:39:49
referring to things that he done or things that he would do in this situation. >> Yeah.
00:39:55
>> So, at some point they realize that that in some form he's talking about himself.
00:39:59
And that's how, you know, they they really find out some more of the details about, you know, Bundy with the
00:40:06
necroilia and uh where he, you know, and why he left the areas that he left and and searching new areas and the way that
00:40:14
he would find new victims. They're able to study a lot of Bundy's movements from
00:40:19
Bundy's own words. And at some point, too, they they need to start having Bundy tell us where these other victims
00:40:26
are of his. you know, where can we find some of these bodies? And he will start to tell the the investigators where to
00:40:34
find them and tell as much as he can. >> Well, I think that's because he couldn't
00:40:38
help himself. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think and you can see it pretty clearly, you know, when you watch
00:40:44
some of these old interviews that he does enjoy talking about himself. He enjoys the FaceTime. He likes sitting
00:40:51
down and he likes people hanging on his every word. Mhm. >> Um, and at some point there's, you know,
00:40:56
he's he's got to, you know, speak about specific victims and mention their names
00:41:02
and where they can be found and things that he did to them and how he abduct abducted them. And that's why when you
00:41:09
have these situations with these victims that were not found at the time or the victims that uh were unable, there are
00:41:16
no eyewitnesses and they didn't escape, so they can't give us an account of what
00:41:21
happened. This is why we know that, you know, he was using things like uh pretending to have a broken arm, you
00:41:27
know, uh and things that he would do to his vehicle and ways of abducting these young women. So, we have Ted Bundy
00:41:35
trying to help this uh law enforcement with the capture of the Green River killer. He was not successful, but he
00:41:42
gave him a bunch of information and some leads. He also talks more about himself
00:41:46
and his crimes, but we still have this thing looming over Ted Bundy. He's going to be sentenced to death by the state of
00:41:53
Florida. But before doing so, he does a lengthy interview. >> Mhm. >> Um with a lawyer, I believe, or uh
00:42:02
>> I believe this was with James Dobson. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so what what was interesting about this was it's about 20
00:42:08
30 minute interview maybe longer but the what they actually the tape the footage
00:42:13
of it they released to all media outlets but there was a stipulation you had to show it in its entirety but we're going
00:42:20
to play a little clip from that so you can hear uh a little bit of this interview but also just uh Ted Bunny's
00:42:27
demeanor and and kind of hear his own words. You know, if I were able to ask you the
00:42:34
questions that are being asked out there, >> uh, one of the most important as you
00:42:39
come down to perhaps your final hours, are you thinking about all those victims out there and their families?
00:42:47
>> Well, >> who are so wounded, you know, years later, their lives have not returned to
00:42:51
normal. They will never return to normal. >> Absolutely. >> Are you carrying that load, that weight?
00:42:56
Is the remorse there? Again, I I know that people will accuse me of being self- serving, but we're beyond
00:43:07
that now. I mean, I'm just telling you how I feel. But through God's help, I have been able
00:43:14
to come to the point where I much too late, but better late than never, feel the hurt and the pain that I
00:43:22
am responsible for. Yes, absolutely. In the past few days, myself and a number of investigators have been talking about
00:43:31
unsolved cases, murders that I was involved in. And it's hard to it's hard to talk about all
00:43:38
these years later because it revives in me all those terrible feelings and those
00:43:43
thoughts that I have steadfastly and and and diligently dealt with, I think successfully with the love
00:43:54
of God. And yet it's reopened that and I felt the pain and I felt the horror again of
00:44:01
all that. And I can only hope that those who I have harmed, those who I've caused so much grief,
00:44:13
even if they don't believe my expression of sorrow and remorse, will believe what I'm saying now that
00:44:26
there is loose in their towns and their communities. People like me today whose dangerous impulses are being
00:44:39
fueled day in and day out by violence in the media in its various forms particularly sexualized violence
00:44:50
and what scares me and let's come into the present now because what I'm talking about happened 30 20 30 years ago that
00:44:58
is in my formative stages and what scares and appalls We Dr. Dobson is when I see what's on cable TV,
00:45:06
some of the movies, I mean, some of the violence in the movies uh that come into
00:45:11
homes today was stuff that they they wouldn't show in x-rated adult theaters 30 years ago. This stuff,
00:45:19
>> the slasher movies that you're talking about, >> that stuff is, I'm telling you from
00:45:24
personal experience, the most that is graphic violence on screen, particularly as it gets into the home to children who
00:45:34
may be unattended or or unaware that they may be a Ted Bundy who has that that vulnerability to that that
00:45:42
predisposition to be influenced by that kind of behavior, by that kind of of movie, that kind of violence.
00:45:49
>> That was Ted Bundy's last interview with James Dobson. And it took place, as you
00:45:54
heard James say, you know, in the final hours leading up to your death. That's because several of his uh death
00:46:01
sentences had been delayed because he was helping investigators and he was giving them information. At some point,
00:46:08
he was no longer able to buy additional time. And he he was executed the next day. And one thing you should look up or
00:46:18
or look into if if you want to dive further into this case, but there was when the date that he was killed, this
00:46:24
was in January of 1989. You I have never seen in my opinion a time where more people were backing the
00:46:35
death penalty than in this situation. It was, you know, it was like a nationwide
00:46:41
almost celebration uh that they were going to finally put this horrible man to death, right? And it's actually been
00:46:47
referred to as the Bundy barbecue because back then in in Florida, I don't know what means of of death sentence
00:46:54
that they use nowadays, but uh back then they were >> pro probably lethal injection.
00:46:59
>> Yeah. They were using the electric chair back then. So they referred to it as the
00:47:02
Bundy barbecue, but there was a party going on outside of the prison. And you can look this up. There's, you know,
00:47:10
people holding signs that were were celebrating the death of this horrible man. And it almost looked like a
00:47:18
football tailgate uh outside of the prison at that time. A big a big party of people getting together, drinking
00:47:24
beer, cooking food, and and like rallying around together. Well, and it's kind of sad in a way because here's this
00:47:30
guy that he's even confessing to crimes on the way to the chair and and the reason why I think it's sad is, you
00:47:39
know, maybe extend the time a little bit further and maybe get some closure for the other victim's families.
00:47:46
>> Yeah, I I can see your point of view with that and and I would agree with that most of the time. I but I do think
00:47:52
that at times he was refusing information. >> Right. Right. And he was he was playing
00:47:59
them at times. You know, we had said that, you know, he would say things like, "Well, I can help you find this
00:48:03
body, but I'm going to need you to provide me with maps and and some information on the case." And these were
00:48:10
things of him of of him saying, you know, I can help you, but you're going to have to go away for a few days and
00:48:17
come back with some information for me, and then let's see what I can give you. Um, so he wasn't always willing to just
00:48:23
outright answer everything. Like we said, he confessed to the deaths of 11 women in the state of Washington and was
00:48:30
only willing to give the names of eight of them, >> right? >> Um, and we have some curiosity to whom
00:48:35
some of those other victims could be. You know, there was a a a what's been referred to as his neighbor. Um, her
00:48:42
name was Anne Burr. Uh, and uh, she had lived with within a few miles of Bundy when he was 14 or 15 years old. and he's
00:48:52
often been suspected of killing her, you know. >> Yeah. She was the one that um her piano
00:48:57
instructor was actually his uncle >> was his uncle or or his uncle lived in the neighborhood.
00:49:03
>> No, I believe she she took piano lessons from the uncle. So there was this direct
00:49:08
link. >> So he may may have even met her or have slightly known her. But basically
00:49:13
somebody came into their home in the middle of the night. The parents were home. They someone came into the home in
00:49:19
the middle of the night, slipped through a window, and when they woke up the next
00:49:23
morning, they couldn't find their daughter Anne, and I don't believe that her body has ever been located. She
00:49:28
could be one of those three people that he was refusing to name in his confessions.
00:49:32
>> I believe she was eight, and he was possibly around the age of 15 or so. I could be wrong.
00:49:38
>> Yep. So, uh, you know, check out the Bundy barbecue, uh, if you want to see those pictures. But let's let's go back
00:49:46
and let's talk about the Green River Killer. >> Okay. Uh, who was the Green River
00:49:51
Killer? Well, this investigation, as much as Bundy tried to help them or or was pretending to help them,
00:49:58
>> uh this investigation basically took about 20 years, you know, it was almost 20 years looking for the killer and it
00:50:06
was about 20 years to uh put some of these cases to to bed because they were still looking for bodies in the early
00:50:14
2000s. now. And what took place was in the late summer of 2001, they started going back and testing a
00:50:22
lot of the evidence that they found at some of these crime scenes and on some of the victim's bodies,
00:50:27
>> right, for DNA and stuff like that. >> Correct. And the first the first link that they find, they're using they're
00:50:32
testing sperm and they they determined that this man Gary Ridgeway uh he had left his DNA uh inside and on some of
00:50:42
these victim's bodies. Now, they were they were also able to collect other evidence at the crime scenes that they
00:50:49
were able to link him to some of the bodies where he did not leave DNA. Now, what what's interesting here is that
00:50:57
back in the early8s, they are these investigators and we got to take our hats off to these guys and girls because
00:51:04
they out there collecting evidence that they don't even know if they're ever going to be able to use it for anything.
00:51:10
but not only collecting it, but per pres preserving it properly for for decades.
00:51:15
And it ends up coming back and it ends up finding the guy that they've been looking for for so long.
00:51:21
>> Mhm. >> In 2001, Gary Ridgeway, he confessed to killing 71 young women and girls. Now,
00:51:30
as we said, most of these were se sex workers. Some of them were thought to be runaways and other type of delinquents.
00:51:37
However, he confesses to 71. He's only ended up convicted of 49. Now, they would spend the next approximately 2
00:51:45
years with the assistance of Gary Rididgeway to locate some of these bodies. As we said, a lot of these
00:51:52
bodies were not located at the time. And actually, still to this date, uh, last,
00:51:58
you know, they haven't found all of these supposed 71 bodies. Um, is he just coming up with a number? Is he wrong?
00:52:06
Um, he could be he could be he he's actually said several statements where he has killed so many women that he
00:52:12
cannot remember their names or where he found them or where he left them. >> Um, so it's possible. I do believe that
00:52:20
that personally I believe that that number is going to be higher than 49. Now, last I heard local law enforcement,
00:52:27
King County law enforcement, they are no longer looking for these bodies. as said
00:52:32
they spent about two years with his assistant assistance locating a lot of these bodies. They are no longer doing
00:52:39
that. Part of that comes down to you know it's the it's the economy of the whole thing. At some point you don't
00:52:44
have enough money to be spending that amount of resources and that amount of time looking for these bodies which is
00:52:50
unfortunate for a lot of the victim's families and the victims themselves. But, you know, these these investigators
00:52:57
and the King County Police Department, they have other cases on their desk today that they're looking into. Now
00:53:04
there was um there is a gentleman uh he's retired uh I believe retired military investigator and he has opened
00:53:13
up his own um search team and they are working to find some of these other bodies and they've actually been able to
00:53:23
work with Gary Ridgeway himself. He has he has tried to give them some clues and
00:53:28
some tips as to where they might find these bodies. And >> yeah, and it's not like he's in there
00:53:33
holding the information hostage. He just doesn't remember a lot of the stuff. >> Right. Well, and actually
00:53:39
>> or that's what we can assume. Actually, I came across a list that he provided to
00:53:44
these uh to these searchers and to this group uh where he basically has listed as many names as he can recall and
00:53:52
approximate dates that he believes that he abducted these women >> as well as you know did he leave them
00:53:59
nude? Did he leave them with any clothing on? Um I don't know his I don't know the his reasoning for wanting to
00:54:07
help. Um, I I don't think that he feels bad about any of this stuff. I don't think that he's found God uh and wants
00:54:15
to become right with God or anything like that. I actually think that I think that it's a numbers game for him because
00:54:22
in in a later statement, even though he has confessed to 71 killings, he did say, you know, when when asked why he is
00:54:30
helping in this search, he has said because he wants to prove that there are 80 victims out there. So now his numbers
00:54:36
gone up even higher. He's now saying 80. And I think for him that he wants to be
00:54:41
he is technically America's most prolific killer of all time. And I think he's proud of his number. And I think he
00:54:49
wants that number to be as high as possible, >> right? And he's trying to prove it by
00:54:54
doing, you know, it's like right now it's like, oh, well, it's just we're just speculating that this is the
00:54:58
number. He's like, no, no, we can prove it. >> Now, what were some things that that Ted
00:55:03
Bundy got right about Gary Ridgeway? Uh well he was right. Gary was returning to
00:55:09
the victims and he was spending time with the bodies. Um now how Gary started off and we don't have you know we're
00:55:15
we're coming towards the end of our show here. Uh but to give you a little background on the Green River killer you
00:55:22
know he started killing back in 1982. This was after his second marriage. He was divorced uh two you know the first
00:55:30
time and then after the second marriage he was divorced again. He would later say that he believes that had he just
00:55:36
killed his second wife that he might not have killed any of these women. I don't
00:55:41
believe that for one no >> for one minute. Um it's it's it's just a way for these guys to blame their
00:55:47
actions on somebody else and on other things out of their control. >> Well, and just like you heard in the
00:55:52
interview, I mean like Bundy, you know, blames these murders on, you know, soft porn and stuff like that. That's not the
00:55:59
reason why you're killing people. you don't watch, you know, I I would just argue that, you know, how many people
00:56:05
millions and millions of people watch a soft uh softcore porn or something, they're not going to go out and start
00:56:11
murdering people. And so G Gary does the same thing. It's always coming up with these excuses.
00:56:17
>> You know, I was, well, if I would have just killed my second wife, then everything would have been fine. You you
00:56:22
killed 80 women. >> Mhm. >> You idiot. >> Like, you know, oh well, if I would have
00:56:28
just killed her, it would be fine. Well, but Gary Gary was always that way and he
00:56:34
will always be that way. I mean, when he was when he was young, when he was just
00:56:37
out of high school, now this is a guy, he he's not a brilliant guy. You know, Ted might be one of the smarter and more
00:56:45
intellectual serial killers that we've had to deal with. But that wasn't the situation with Gary Rididgeway. He w he
00:56:52
was good at what he was doing. He was good at eluding detectives in the investigation, but he's not a brilliant
00:56:58
mind. I mean, he's got an IQ of about 80 to 85, depending on uh which source you
00:57:04
check, but he graduated high school at the age of 20. And immediately after high school, he goes into the Navy. And
00:57:10
now when he's off in the Navy, he starts uh having sex with um with Filipino sex
00:57:17
workers when when he's out in the Navy. Now, he he contracts venerial disease because of this. And he we know this
00:57:24
because we can see this in his Navy records. However, what how does re he react to this? He he blames it on the
00:57:32
girls. You know, this is oh, it's their fault that he got this disease. And then
00:57:36
in 1972, he comes home from the Navy to find his wife and his wife is being unfaithful and had been unfaithful to
00:57:44
him while he was in the Navy and they get a divorce and he blames the divorce on her. Well, guess what? Yeah, she
00:57:50
might have been unfaithful, but you weren't being very faithful yourself, >> right?
00:57:54
um in the second uh the second marriage that he has that he ends up having a son. Uh he's not very happy about this
00:58:03
situation. I don't know why. Uh but they eventually divorce in 1981. And again, this is the the woman that he said he
00:58:11
should have killed rather than all of these other women. Uh this is when he starts killing is in 1982 shortly after
00:58:19
his divorce. and his his modus operendi back then is he would go pick up these girls off the strip. Now mind you, he
00:58:28
was just like Bundy had said in the task force uh had expected. He was already frequenting sex workers before he
00:58:37
started killing them. But once he starts killing them, what he would do is he would bring them back to his home and he
00:58:43
would kill them in his home. And now he lived in a house that is much like most people's homes where you are surrounded
00:58:50
by other houses and homes. And so there's no reason why uh you know somebody shouldn't have seen this
00:58:56
activity going on, but he would walk in the walk in his home. He didn't have a garage. He would walk in his home with
00:59:03
with a woman that he picked up and then he would kill her and bring her back to his vehicle and drive off and he would
00:59:10
dump them in the river. Now, as said, he started dumping them in the wooded areas
00:59:15
nearby in these cluster dumps. Remember that period of time where the they thought that the killings might have
00:59:21
stopped because they were no longer finding bodies, right? >> And and Bundy was saying, "No, they
00:59:26
haven't stopped yet." >> And Bundy was slightly right on a couple things. You know, he said he's either
00:59:31
changed where he's dumping them or he's changed his victimology. Well, he did do
00:59:36
both of those things in a sense. Uh at one point he did think that he would stop picking up sex workers and killing
00:59:45
them. He wanted to he did want to find runaways and delinquents. And but one thing that he definitely did was he
00:59:53
stopped using these cluster dumps where he would take one of the victims out into a wooded area and he was even
00:59:58
driving further and further away as these killings continued and just leaving them, you know, independently,
01:00:06
individually. So, you think after two marriages he would just stop, right? But does he get married a third time?
01:00:12
>> Yeah, he did get married a third time. And this is when he has to change and adapt once more. He stops killing in his
01:00:19
home and now he's killing in his vehicle. And he's doing this either late at night when his wife is asleep or very
01:00:26
early in the morning. He would get up and leave hours before he was supposed to go to work and go off and pick up a
01:00:32
girl, kill her, dump her, and then go to work. Now, there were some strange things that happened with this case, but
01:00:40
they're also similar to what we saw with the Ted murders and Ted Bundy's case, where anytime you have a large
01:00:49
investigation that spans months and months and months that has this number of victims, this number of potential
01:00:56
eyewitnesses, remember how many suspects they believe that they had in the Ted killings? They they said like 3,500
01:01:03
suspects and they were trying to narrow it down to the best 100 suspects. Well, very much like the Ted murders, they had
01:01:11
the same situation in the Green River killings where they had thousands of suspects. Thousands of suspects. But
01:01:19
usually in an investigation of this type and just like in Ted Bundy's, they have
01:01:23
usually spoke to or or have heard the name of the actual killer at some point in the investigation. Now, they were led
01:01:31
to Gary Ridgeway on more than one occasion. Somebody had spotted his vehicle and they had spoke with him.
01:01:38
Every time Gary Ridgeway was able to kind of convince them that he was not in fact the Green River Killer. And
01:01:44
actually, just to show you how far gone this dude is, they actually at one point
01:01:49
hooked him up to a lie detector test because at some point they're like, "Wait, we we've seen this guy's name
01:01:54
before and now we're seeing it again and there's got to be something here." But every time we talk to him, he leaves us
01:02:00
convinced that he's not the guy. >> Mhm. >> So, let's hook him up to a polygraph and
01:02:04
see what how that goes down. He passes a polygraph test because he feels no remorse. Because he feels no guilt for
01:02:12
these killings. He does. He's not ashamed on the inside of what he's done. He's not even nervous that you're going
01:02:18
to catch him in a lie because to him, he's not done anything wrong. He does not see these women as people. And he
01:02:25
doesn't have the same feelings and emotions that you and I have. >> And this is a reason why we put we
01:02:31
shouldn't put a lot of weight into polygraphs in the first place. >> Well, especially with people of this
01:02:36
nature, because again, he he doesn't feel and think the same way that you and I do. And and evidence of this is he
01:02:44
actually had his 8-year-old son present with him on one of the killings. At some
01:02:49
point, if you look if you look up his his victim list and see when they disappeared,
01:02:56
>> uh you will see a frequency that is so disturbing. It I mean it will freak you
01:03:01
out. This guy was killing roughly about three women a month uh during during his
01:03:06
peak. Now, at one of those points, he had his son for the weekend, and he was coming back from his brother's birthday
01:03:13
party, and he decides to pick up a a woman on the way home while his son is in the vehicle. And he walks with the
01:03:21
woman out into the woods. They're gone for a while. He comes back, she does not. And his son asked, "Where did the
01:03:27
girl go?" And he says, "Oh, she lives near here." And she decided to walk home. But he actually used his son as a
01:03:34
ruse to to let these women's guard down in that specific situation. He had the son with him. But he talks about because
01:03:42
remember we said that the the sex workers would have had a heightened state of awareness. Now keep in mind
01:03:48
>> these women probably have more street smarts than the police investigating the
01:03:53
crimes to begin with. You know, so these are not people that are easily tricked now. They're they're getting into
01:03:59
vehicles and they understand that there's a maniac out there that's killing women. So, they start doing
01:04:04
things on the street to kind of watch each other's backs and to watch their own backs,
01:04:08
>> right? >> But he did things like where he would, you know, the he said that at some point
01:04:13
the women started asking to see ID because they want to see, you know, are you a cop or, you know, show us your ID
01:04:19
so we know that you're a regular dude. Uh, and he would show his ID and he would purposely take his finger and
01:04:25
cover up his name when he would, but he would hold open his wallet so that you could see pictures of his son in the
01:04:33
wallet so it would let their guard down and >> Oh, right. Right. Like he has a little
01:04:36
boy and so >> Yeah. So, he's a family man. He's not going to hurt me. Uh, and he would
01:04:41
purposely leave some of his son's belongings in his vehicle as well. Now, another thing
01:04:47
>> that's one messed up dude. Another thing that Ted was absolutely right on and and
01:04:51
anybody that studied this stuff long enough, it doesn't take any, you know, Sherlock Holmes to figure this out, but
01:04:57
Ted was right that Gary Ridgeway was driving constantly, much like Ted was doing. You know, it we've talked, you
01:05:04
know, people always ask, what do these serial killers have in common? You know, is it is it they had a head injury or
01:05:11
was it that they wet the bed until they were 15? Or that they uh I >> I'm going to go with wet the bed
01:05:17
>> or that they were strangling cats or setting things on fire when they were children. What are what's the identifier
01:05:23
to figure out who these guys are to separate these monsters from the rest of society? Well, in my opinion, it's much
01:05:29
like what we talked about in the last episode. Their number one killing tool and killing weapon, in my opinion, is
01:05:35
their vehicle. Well, with these two gentlemen. >> With these two. But you will see this
01:05:39
time and time again. >> These two [ __ ] >> So, but you will see this time and time
01:05:45
again with a lot of killers. They are people that prowl constantly. They're driving constantly. They will go to
01:05:51
great distances to hide their crimes. These are people that are tearing through tires and tearing through
01:05:57
vehicles at at a large rate. Now, one thing that Gary did to help elude detection was he had multiple vehicles
01:06:04
over the course of this investigation, but he also worked as a painter. He he was a tape guy at the at the uh Kenworth
01:06:12
factory. Now, what was Kenworth? They would paint vehicles. So, he was often able to change the color of his vehicle
01:06:20
because he would just paint it a different color. Now, the strange thing here is we we had said that the
01:06:24
investigators had spoken to Gary on more than one occasion. Now, his co-workers knew this because he was actually picked
01:06:31
up at work one on one of these occasions. So, his nickname at work now, and you can you can look this up, but
01:06:38
there's plenty of co-workers that said, you know, he was a weird dude. He wasn't
01:06:41
the kind of guy, he wasn't scary, but he wasn't the kind of guy that you would go
01:06:44
get a beer with after work. You wouldn't invite him over to your party or to your
01:06:48
family get together. So he's like Nick. >> No, but they nicknamed him Green River
01:06:54
Gary at work. That's what they kind of called >> Green River Gary. >> Green River Gary. They would kind of
01:07:00
call him that behind his back. >> Why? >> Because because the police showed up to
01:07:04
question him about the killings, >> right? So then they're like at work and they're like
01:07:08
>> well yeah because from now on anytime you're taking a spoke break or you're at
01:07:12
lunch break the conversation is well is Gary really the killer or is he not the you know and everybody had a different
01:07:18
opinion but they all agreed they didn't want to hang out with him. >> Uh >> yeah and after that why I wouldn't want
01:07:24
to hang out with the dude either >> but Gary is always the type of of person to get even too as well. Now, one thing
01:07:31
he did, he would hear the co-workers snickering and calling him Green River Gary and and you know, but one thing
01:07:38
that he did was he would often keep some of the women's jewelry, these women that
01:07:43
he killed. Um, and one thing he did at work on at least one occasion was he would take the jewelry and he would
01:07:51
place it somewhere like somebody had dropped it, >> you know, or somebody had lost it and a
01:07:56
coworker picked it up and would wear it. And he would have this thing in his mind
01:08:00
every time that he would pass that coworker in the hall or walk by her like, "If you only knew what I know, you
01:08:06
know, you you guys goof around and you call me these names, yet you're wearing a dead girl's jewelry around, you know,
01:08:12
around the office." Some of that jewelry that he had would end up in his and his
01:08:17
wife. They would have these garage sales and they would sell some of the jewelry
01:08:21
as well as shoes of of some of the victims. in in all, you know, as said, he ended
01:08:28
up uh confessing to 71 and he's convicted of 49. Now, part of that he he is not on death row. You know, he's
01:08:36
serving a life sentence and part of that life sentence was that he would confess
01:08:41
to these these murders and he would help assist with the finding of those bodies.
01:08:46
>> So, with the Green River Killer case, um we still have a task force looking for
01:08:51
these bodies, still working with Gary. Um Gary has to work with him. That's his sentence. And and hopefully more
01:08:59
victims, they find more of the bodies and more evidence. >> Yeah. Well, he he did have to work with
01:09:06
law enforcement. This is a separate uh situation going on where this is a basically a company, you know, that uh
01:09:14
they don't work for the police department, but he is offering them some of some assistance.
01:09:18
>> Yeah. Right. >> But uh Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's an interesting case. Was Bundy right on on
01:09:24
things? Yes, he was certainly right on a handful of things. Um and then other things, you know, were were just guesses
01:09:30
or he was talking about himself. >> Mhm. You know, >> sad with Ted Bundy's help that they
01:09:35
couldn't catch Gary sooner. >> Mhm. Yeah. And you know, and I've often wondered had Ted Bundy been able to help
01:09:42
them like right out of the right out of the gate there and they would have been able to catch Gary Ridgeway a lot
01:09:49
sooner, especially what you know when Bendy Bundy was still alive within the first couple of weeks that he was
01:09:55
helping them. >> Would they have kept him alive longer, do you think, and used him as some kind
01:10:00
of investigative tool, you know, for these other big cases going on throughout the country? I I've wondered
01:10:07
where that would have gone had that worked out differently. >> And that's Ted Bundy.
01:10:11
>> Yeah. Well, Ted Bundy is one of the uh you know, he's one of the more interesting and more fascinating serial
01:10:18
killers, monsters that we've had to deal with and one that we've learned about through true crime and through his
01:10:24
crimes. Uh but one thing that makes him so interesting is, you know, his willingness at the end to discuss
01:10:32
these crimes, his crimes and other people's crimes with law enforcement and with the media that he is truly one that
01:10:40
that is the best to study. Uh how about some recommended reading before we wrap up season 3 here? Don't worry. Don't
01:10:47
worry. We'll be coming right back for season 4 pretty quickly. Back in the garage next week. We come back in like
01:10:53
uh 6 months. >> Yeah. So, we we're taking a six-month break. >> We'll be back in 6 months. Don't worry
01:10:59
about us. >> So, we've recommended some pretty good Ted Bundy books so far. We had uh um The
01:11:04
Bundy Murders by Kevin Sullivan. And last week, we recommended I Survived Ted Bundy. Uh this week, uh one of my
01:11:13
favorite, one of the arguably one of the best true crime authors of all time, somebody that knew Ted Bundy, of course,
01:11:19
Anne Rule. We're talking about Annne Rule and her book, The Stranger Beside Me. So, if you want to check out any of
01:11:25
our recommended books, if you want to pick one up, >> I'm actually writing a book with the
01:11:29
same title, Stranger Beside Me. >> If you want to pick up any of our recommended books, go to true
01:11:35
crimegar.com, click on the recommended page, and we have a whole smattering of books there for you to check out. And
01:11:42
you just click on the Amazon banner and pick up your true crime books or anything else that you want to buy for
01:11:47
the holiday season. You can buy anything. Uh, I just bought a nice bass fiddle. Not a bass fiddle, bass guitar.
01:11:55
Slap in the bass. And you can buy anything. Just go to trimerg.com, click on the Amazon banner, buy all your
01:12:01
gifts, and they give a little kickback to us with no charge to you. >> That's right. And we will see you back
01:12:06
here in 6 months in the garage. And until next time, >> 2 years and 6 months. >> Yeah. And until next time, be good, be
01:12:15
kind, and don't live. [Music]