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foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
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listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who claims to have been Spit On by Keith Hernandez here is
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the captain yeah nice game pretty boy it's good to be seen it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for
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telling a friend [Music] today we are still sipping on birthday Bomb by The Genius beer brewers over at
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enough of the business all right everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
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thank you on July 22nd 1993 an employee at the University of California is injured
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after opening a package that exploded in his kitchen the package was mailed to his home this is world renowned
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geneticist Dr Charles Epstein he was severely injured in the attack just two days later Captain a prominent computer
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scientist from Yale University receives a bomb in the mail and lost several fingers when he opened up the package in
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December of 1994 a package was received at the home of Thomas Moser in North Caldwell New
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Jersey Thomas Moser was an executive at the public relations firm Burson marsteller Thomas opens the package and
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is killed immediately now this is Bomb number 15 if you are keeping score at home
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on April 24th 1995. a male bomb was sent to William Dennison at his office however
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Denison who the package is addressed to is actually the former president of the California Forestry Association located
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in Sacramento so the new president is the one who actually receives this package this is
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Gilbert Murray he opens the package and he is killed immediately so now what we have here
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Captain is two bombs in a row that are both deadly our attacker seems to have perfected his craft which has to be
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scary for the FBI because what we know in his previous attacks is not just sending bombs to individuals but the
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bombs that he put on the flight flight 444 and if that bomb would have went off we're talking about casualties almost up
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to a hundred people and so if he's able to then go hey well this is working instead of going after single
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individuals again I'll go after the Arab lines again and if they don't stop it I mean you're you're talking about a
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massive devastation Captain I want to get into some Communications that have been going on
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through the course of this investigation and these attacks now there was a letter
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that was sent to the San Francisco Examiner in 1985 and I actually have in my notes here that a letter at some
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point was received by the San Francisco Chronicle as well I don't have that date
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in front of me but one thing interesting to our listeners they will remember the
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San Francisco Chronicle from the Zodiac case that's where he sent most of his Communications
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now in this letter back from 1985 the author is explaining what FC stands for so I'll just read the first couple
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sentences of this letter and what it says here is that this was a hand written letter and it says to the San
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Francisco Examiner the bomb that crippled the right arm of a graduate student in electrical engineering and
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damaged a computer lab at U of Cal Berkeley last May was planted by a terrorist group called Freedom club we
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are also responsible for some earlier bombing attempts and it goes on to list some of those attempts and it also goes
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on to State how some of the bombs were constructed to try to prove that we are in fact who we say we are yeah and then
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also they reminded everybody that the first rule of Freedom Club is to not talk about Freedom Club as well as the
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second rule of Freedom Club as well now there was some communication with the New York Times
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from this same terrorist group that's identifying themselves as terrorist group FC in their Communications with a
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Warren Hodge of the New York Times this letter was in 1995. again explaining just like we said with the previous
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letter what the group stands for what they're responsible for and descriptions of
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bombs proving we are who we say we are what's interesting about this scenario with both of these situations
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with the the letter to the San Francisco newspaper and then the New York Times one thing that the FBI was doing in
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their investigations was they were able to really pinpoint and determine where the mail bombs that were actually sent
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through the mail were shipped from where where someone dropped them into the mail
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they found that the majority of the communications as well as the majority of the bombs that were mailed were
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mailed in the San Francisco area so what they believe in their investigation is that they are looking
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for someone who lives in or around the greater San Francisco area now we have another scenario and this
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comes from the 1995 letter to the New York Times what they see on the letter is indentations like someone had wrote
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something on another piece of paper on top of this letter or this envelope that was sent to the New York Times
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through some analysis they're able to determine what what was written and it was written call Nathan R Wednesday 7 pm
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now the FBI is desperately looking for a Nathan R because they believe that this
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evidence suggests to them that the Unabomber made a mistake he accidentally wrote over top of his
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letter and now they need to find a Nathan R because a Nathan R may have received a
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call on a Wednesday at 7 pm at some point from the Unabomber who made a note to themselves call Nathan R Wednesday 7
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pm they are making a national hunt for everyone named Nathan r with the last initial last name initial of R yeah or
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possibly Nathan R is connected to this Freedom Club their second objective once they track down every Nathan R and ask
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them the simple question of do you know who the Unabomber is or do you who called you on a Wednesday at 7 pm so so
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on and so forth yeah or sometimes they ask them to straight up are you a piece of [ __ ] they thought you know what if
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it's not Nathan last name that starts with R once we've cleared all them let's start
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looking for Nathan middle initial R right the problem with this is there's a lot of Nathan ours out there first of
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all and second of all not all these guys want to talk to you you know your law enforcement agency and you're saying hey
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we need to ask you a couple questions you're going what are you doing contacting me I don't know what it is
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that you're talking about get the hell out of here especially if you're nowhere near the San Francisco area I wonder if
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there was any communication within the FBI to go well we have now communication from
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this FC possibly an individual or a group all the communication is coming from San
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Francisco our communication with the Zodiac was coming from San Francisco there's now
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communication between this Unabomber or FC towards newspapers just like the zodiac
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is it I wonder if there was conversation within the agency to go is this somehow
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connected to the Zodiac my guess would be that when you have this many agents working on a case in a case that's uh
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has a span of this many years that you probably have all kinds of speculation and theories especially early on in the
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case when you have really no evidence at all of anything going on other than this
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FC calling card that's being left with each bomb so remember the communication with Warren Hodge of the New York Times
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what we then have are several threatening letters that are sent to persons that would later be receiving
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bombs or at least the threat of possibly receiving a bomb and I'll read one but there were multiple of these and this
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one says Dear Dr Roberts it would be it would be beneficial to your health to stop your research in genetics this is a
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warning from FC Warren Hodge of the New York Times can confirm that this note does come from FC
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which is bizarre because this is a complete different approach to some of the attacks later that we're seeing in
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the 90s compared to what we saw in the late 70s and 80s where there is in fact a communication in advance and a threat
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that is sent out saying stop what you're doing here's our threat we are FC and oh yeah
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this guy Warren Hodge he can confirm that we are who we say we are because we've already communicated with him at
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the New York Times come on we'll learn later is by the 90s the mid 90s that the FBI is going to have a list of about 2
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000 suspects yes um in April 24 1995 that was the last deadly bomb that was received again it
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was at the California Forestry Association exactly two months later on June 24th
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1995 copies of a three a copies of a 35 000 word essay titled industrial society
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and its future by FC were sent to the New York Times The Washington Post and Penthouse Magazine again very similar
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because it's sending to three different Publications and then also very similar like what the Zodiac did to
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say hey publish these ciphers publish this Manifesto right and what you have here Captain is basically
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it's this very lengthy Manifesto of what the author deems to be the industrial society and the damages that
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it's doing to our society and to our freedoms and so on and so forth but also saying you know we are FC we are the
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freedom club we are this terrorist organization who has been terrorizing America for well over a decade now now
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if you publish our essay and I think there was even the words in there publish or perish meaning if you don't
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publish this we're going to ramp up our attacks and oh yeah we've been deadly as
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of late we've killed the last two people that we've attempted to kill now we can ramp up these attacks if you
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don't submit to our demands which is publishing this essay or if you do publish it well we will
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desist from terrorism if this demand is met there was of course a lot of controversy
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over the idea do we give in to this terrorist demand of printing their essay in the papers I believe it was titled
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industrial society and its future what you end up having happen here is this great debate that is going on behind the
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scenes do we publish or do we not publish yeah and really what we want to have happen
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here the FBI is going to have the final say so they are going to tell these Publications if they can publish or not
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however these things were sent to three different periodicals so we have the New York
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Times And The Washington Post that really says that you know we are going to go off of the FBI's recommendation
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boy and look we we have a debate going on with inside the agency because like we were talking about earlier last
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week um off the Record if you will that they did these uh strategies with the Zodiac
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and never caught him so the people that are saying hey let's we need to publish this because this is going to bring
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other people out to to possibly be able to identify this group or this individual
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and there's other people coming back and going hey it didn't work with zodiac so
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how are you so certain that it's going to work with this Unabomber's Manifesto it didn't work with zodiac but the
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interesting thing is that the majority of the time when these especially when it's a Serial offender
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that when they start communicating the communication is what often leads to their capture
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and so you have this you have this confusion going on of oh we don't give in to terrorist demands but oh this also
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might be this might be our spearhead for our investigation to finally catching this
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guy so the Penthouse Magazine look they're they're looking to become newsworthy I
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guess right they're saying okay times they're going to defer to the FBI the post is going to defer to the FBI we're
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going to publish it here at Penthouse Magazine yeah they said no more with the tatas the tatis and the tatas we're
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gonna we're gonna go right after the industrial society well they were going to continue doing exactly what they were
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doing but they they knew this thing's going to sell a lot of papers so a lot of magazines
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and so of course they wanted to post it and this is public information this is being released to the the ongoing talks
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of whether to publish or not are up front and center and the public is aware of what's going on it's just sad that
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but their editor wanted to call it the Unabomber manifisto well the thing here is though now we have an
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issue of the author of the industrial society and its future they're going well this was kind of a
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good game plan by the author in my opinion because you have two quote-unquote respectable
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too respectable Publications and one that's not respectable and he or the author or whomever it was
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or this group or what have you they want this Manifesto to be printed in an upstanding publication the New York
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Times The Washington Post or both but it's kind of cool that they leverage this against those two by sending it to
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someone who was probably just willing to print it to sell papers sell magazines and so when you see that this debate is
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going on in front of the American public now you have the you have the author or
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authors come forward and say okay look we agreed that we would stop our terrorism we would stop the bombings if
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this was printed however if it's not printed in the two newspapers or one of the two newspapers
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and it's only printed in Penthouse Magazine because it's not an upstanding publication well we reserve the right to
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send one more deadly bomb one more deadly attack and then it can be posted in the
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Penthouse magazine and we will stop our terrorism then our acts of terrorism then but they realize with the three
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different Publications was we should we should print this in the Washington Post
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because it's going to be easier for us to monitor uh it had it had a less of a footprint as far as where the Washington
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Post was received by readers right when you say they you mean the FBI the FBI has to put some strategy some strategy
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into this idea of do we post or not well because they know that once they post it
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that this individual is going to want to read this and so they figured well maybe
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we could catch him that way by wanting to read his work in the paper right so what you have is a
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double-pronged attack the authors the this group FC Freedom Club they picked these three Publications well
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the New York Times is well distributed everywhere across the entire country The Washington Post it's distributed
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across the entire country but there's fewer Outlets to purchase and pick up the actual paper
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Penthouse Magazine I would assume is distributed across the country but again fewer Outlets to pick up the magazine
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and you're exactly right Captain they determined that in San Francisco in the greater San Francisco area where we
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think this guy is uh living there was only I believe one place that you could purchase the Washington Post
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in that greater San Francisco area so they're like cool on the day we will agree to print
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this Manifesto but where it's like the Delphi press release the Delphi press conference that we saw a couple years
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back where they made the announcement in advance this is when we are doing this trying to
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draw the killer trying to draw the attention from the killer to that location on that specific day
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so now we're going to announce yes we will print it it will be printed in the Washington Post only and it will be
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printed on September 19 1995. so author FC you now know when you should be ready to go purchase and pick
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up your newspaper they're going to monitor that location in San Francisco with the idea of
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photographing and questioning every individual that buys a copy at that newsstand or what have you on September
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19 1995. it's a two-pronged approach to their investigation to draw out the killer one either he does show up in the
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San Francisco area and purchase a Washington Post newspaper on said day and they lure him out that way or B they
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print the manifesto somebody that knows FC can identify them by their words and by their writing can contact the FBI
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and say I think I know who you're looking for right and I also think there's some identifiers in there that
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the FBI saw right and you would have that in really any type of writing especially something that's 35
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000 words yeah I mean there's a lot to sift through there there's a lot to consider but not just the identifiers
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that you're pointing out here but it's also the ideals yes I mean this is that's what this manuscript is it's it's
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a list of ideals of how this person believes that the future is going to be affected by the Industrial Revolution
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and and everything going on with technology and nature versus technology and so on and so forth
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that someone will probably at some point recognize the mission of FC or Freedom Club
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and understand that because again we go back to yesterday's trailer when we talk about the psychological
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makeup of this individual it's really patting yourself on the back about that that uh trailer aren't you
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well if he's anything like the mad bomber what Dr Brussel determined was that this
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would be a grudge holder that this person would have certain delusions and would have certain ideas
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that they might be able to act normal and set those aside until it comes up somewhere
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in conversation or until they bring it up somewhere in conversation and this their ideas would be discussed with
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others well also with this Manifesto I mean right away to me it's like this person has a higher level of
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intelligence he's speaking of ideas uh one of the great Eleanor Roosevelt quotes is great
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minds discuss ideas average Minds discuss events and small minds discuss people and he's not essentially doing
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that in this Manifesto he is presenting these ideas uh and these problems that he sees facing the whole of society but
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not blaming individuals I I respect your opinion but I'm going to have to disagree he's not talking about
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individuals specifically but he kind of lumps people together and categorizes people as certain things and
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references them in that manner and he does reference events as well to kind of back up his claims or his beliefs yeah
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but I also think some of Juan you can see is intelligence too there's a lot of futuristic predictions
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I think now a lot of stuff that is being talked about now and so that's why I think people are going to wait maybe
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this guy wasn't a complete madman even comparing this Manifesto to you know 1984 George Orwell's 1984. maybe he
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lumped people into very standard groups but he's not going after one individual or multiple individuals and saying all
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this is their fault that's correct um anybody I I don't know if you've read it or not Captain but again
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I I have a bit of a different take probably on this than some people that I've seen give their opinions on well
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there's there's also two versions because he updated it so there I think there's one that's like 126 pages
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and then one that's less than that yeah so I'm just going off of the one that was printed in the paper on
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September 19th 1995 when he's making the threats um yeah it's uh yeah it's you can obviously tell that it
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was written by an intelligent individual or group of individuals and it's but at
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the end of the day to me it looks like the ramblings of an Angry Young Man um I I didn't find anything particularly
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brilliant about the the thoughts of the future of society or lack of freedoms that us as individuals may have in that
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Society it I mean it's nothing there's no predictions or thoughts in there that would be any more brilliant than George
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Lucas's Star Wars or stuff that we've seen in sci-fi uh books comic books and TV throughout
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the decade right but I think I I think that's lesson lessening these ideas I mean
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maybe he just came out with these ideas in 1995 but he's talking about the way he thinks Society is going to
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work with artificial intelligence and that stuff that's we're just now talking about
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in the public atmosphere like in the last five years and so yeah I mean I but I think the
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work of uh George Lucas and and the creators of like Star Trek and the things that they were able to think of
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how they thought their future would go those were genius ideas and so if you compare them to
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that I think you'd have to say some of these thoughts are genius level ideas agreed agreed as said I
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believe it's obvious that the uh there's some intelligence there from the author
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I just don't find it to be anything super unique he's not the only one thinking of some of these ideas now what
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this does do though is it does have the desired effect because we start getting a lot of people
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coming forward saying oh I know somebody that talks like this I know somebody that has said similar ideas I know
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someone that writes like this so on and so forth what we end up having Captain is a
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husband and wife will eventually come forward and this will be David Kaczynski and Linda Patrick
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and the way that this goes down is Linda Patrick decides she is going to read this Manifesto knows that it's going to
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be published decides that she is going to read it she reads it and she informs her husband David she says this sounds
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to me a lot like your brother [Music] thank you foreign [Music] [Music] we're back cheers mates cheers to you
00:29:06
Colonel and cheers to everybody for the the nice birthday wishes yesterday I appreciate it and cheers to the people
00:29:12
in the back all right we brought up David Kaczynski and his wife Linda Patrick the way this
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comes about here is Linda Patrick tells David I think that this author of this Manifesto could be your brother it
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sounds a lot like how your brother writes this is really interesting because Linda
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Patrick had never technically met David's brother Ted right he just would write them quite often he would write
00:29:41
them some nasty letters and a lot of the letters are about David now being married to Linda and how much
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Ted does not like Linda and how much Linda has changed his brother David and he never met her for the worse that's
00:29:56
right that's hilarious yeah well he's the ultimate Grudge holder um and so Linda it does take some
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convincing to her husband David that the writings are similar and in fact David ends up finding an essay that
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Ted had written years before that actually is listing out a lot of these same ideas that are presented in the
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what is dubbed by the FBI the Unabomber Manifesto eventually David is convinced that his
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brother should be looked at he's concerned because you have things like Ruby Ridge that went down where the FBI
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surrounded a home and they had guns inside a gun a gunfight breaks out and we now
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have people dead as a result of Ruby Ridge he was worried the same thing could happen with his brother his
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brothers living out in the middle of nowhere and Lincoln Montana and a tiny little cabin and he's got guns in his
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little cabin got really annoying after like the fifth or sixth person as I'm researching this case said little Log
00:31:06
Cabin this is not a log cabin this looks more like a shed and there's no running water and there's
00:31:14
no I believe there's no electricity as well no he's [ __ ] in the floor inside this cabin wow
00:31:22
to put it as bluntly as possible gave me some warning I'm trying to finish my sandwich he could have bothered to build
00:31:28
an outhouse at some point maybe he did and decided to move it inward I don't know but anyway
00:31:34
it was too cold his [ __ ] was freezing so he had to [ __ ] inside but see David is he's at like a
00:31:43
Crossroads man because he's got to decide do I suggest that my brother could be he's not can 100 convinced right that
00:31:53
Ted is in fact the Unabomber the Most Wanted serial killer in the country at the time he's not 100 convinced
00:32:01
does he make this suggestion to the FBI or look if if he's wrong and Ted is innocent and some type of
00:32:11
gunfight breaks out Ted could end up losing his life if Linda is right his brother Ted could send out another
00:32:22
bomb and kill somebody even though he said hey I'll stop if you print this you can
00:32:29
never take a a threat at its word especially from terrorists yeah I think what's interesting here is
00:32:35
that they can they contact a lawyer and they end up contacting a linguist to basically go over what they think they
00:32:45
are seeing and both the lawyer and the linguists confirm it and say no look we think this is the same individual and we
00:32:54
need to go to FBI with this eventually and it doesn't happen overnight captain again a lot of debate a lot of things
00:33:00
going on behind the scenes here but eventually the FBI does become convinced that Ted Kaczynski is in fact the guy
00:33:09
the problem that they have with Ted Kaczynski being Prime Suspect being the perpetrator is that it actually goes
00:33:17
against a lot of the stuff that they collected against the Unabomber he doesn't live anywhere near San Francisco
00:33:24
right the guy doesn't even own a vehicle he's [ __ ] in his house the other thing too is he doesn't fit the profile
00:33:33
he's a little older than the profiles would suggest I do want to throw this out there there were dozens of profiles
00:33:39
put together about the Unabomber including John Douglas that were not at the end of the day didn't turn out to
00:33:48
be great profiles but also the physical description that was given by the witness that saw the man placing the
00:33:54
package in the the parking lot right had the age wrong had the hair color wrong so there's a lot of reasons to look at
00:34:04
this guy and go I see what you're saying that the language is similar but are we
00:34:09
going to go and get this guy simply based off of language and no physical evidence at all zero physical evidence
00:34:15
so much so that it looks difficult that this guy could be our guy yeah but what they do now because because they have a
00:34:22
name is they can then go well what is Ted kaczynski's past and where how did he get to this point where he was living
00:34:31
in this cabin isolated I'm all alone and they're going to start to see reasons that will tie someone
00:34:39
like Ted to a lot of these attacks first off he has a history his childhood he lived in the he lived in the Illinois
00:34:49
in the state of Illinois right more specifically around Chicago we know that one at least one or two of
00:34:57
the attacks were chicago-based attacks at the age of 16 Ted enters Harvard University he graduates from Harvard in
00:35:09
1962 he is accepted to the University of Michigan for a graduate program to study
00:35:15
mathematics well I mean well let's not glaze over the fact that he was in a three-year long experimental
00:35:22
psychological experimental study at Harvard when he was 16. right not trying to glaze over that just pointing
00:35:32
out what they will look at with his past that's known to them by knowing his name
00:35:37
and how it connects to some of these attacks so we do know that University of Michigan was one of the targets what
00:35:45
they're learning here is look this guy is this guy is smart at one point test IQ of like 167 or something like
00:35:53
that so he's capable of making these bombs and then he goes like you said to Michigan and then also then goes to uh
00:36:01
Berkeley California so now we have connection to Berkeley California as well yes and um
00:36:10
1967 is when he moves from the University of Michigan out to University of California Berkeley there he will be
00:36:17
a teacher he's going to teach math at Berkeley and then in 1969 he resigns from the math department at Berkeley
00:36:26
yeah he moves back home with his parents for about two years but during that time
00:36:31
period him his brother and I I believe his uh father as well they all help him build this Shack in Montana yeah it was
00:36:41
1971 when he purchased 1.4 acres in South Lincoln Montana and he and his brother start to build this cabin but at
00:36:53
the same time captain in 1971 Ted completes an Untitled essay on the evils of Technology
00:37:01
this will be again similar to that of the industrial society in this future once the FBI is convinced that this
00:37:10
could be their guy that this should be their number one suspect you got to look at him and clear him before you can move
00:37:17
on they decide to start surveillance on Ted and his cabin in Lincoln Montana shortly
00:37:25
afterwards Captain Theodore John Kaczynski was arrested by the FBI in April of 1996. he's arrested at his
00:37:34
cabin in Montana and of course he is accused of killing three people and injuring over 20 people
00:37:42
in 16 separate bombings between the years of 1978 and 1995. I mean yeah this is some of the
00:37:52
biggest news uh the capturing of the Unabomber in 1996 some of the biggest news of 1996. you also have Princess
00:38:00
Diana and Charles getting a divorce you have mad cow disease in the UK and then obviously you have JonBenet Ramsey's
00:38:09
killing later on in that year and as you pointed out earlier Captain one of the issues they had with Ted was
00:38:17
they had 2 000 they being the FBI had 2 000 suspects in this case and Ted Kaczynski was not listed in that top
00:38:26
2000. you have to applaud his brother and his sister-in-law for coming forward and saying hey
00:38:32
um because yeah maybe your brother's writing you some strange letters here and there but he's not hurting anybody
00:38:38
and Ted had no History of Violence that his family knew of and and actually the opposite one of the things
00:38:48
you know Ted had a severe hives when he was a kid and he was isolated in the hospital when he was younger before his
00:38:56
little brother was even born but one of the things that his mother said was he always
00:39:01
had a the way he treated animals especially animals that were in caged he had a real empathy for them which you
00:39:10
normally don't see I mean you hear a lot of times with like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey
00:39:15
Dahmer and things like that cruelty to animals at a young age and he had the opposite of that well he may not have
00:39:22
had these deadly desires until later on in his life and probably I think he probably had some of this
00:39:31
before that experimental stuff that was going on at Harvard but I think that really pushed it further along it
00:39:40
certainly didn't help the young man I'm going to argue with you because there there's no sign of that and he was Avid
00:39:46
with journaling and I don't think there's any record of him having any homicidal thoughts until he got to
00:39:54
Michigan which would have been years after the experiment and he and he says three year long experiment which was
00:40:03
done by Henry Murray at Harvard that it was the worst experience of his life but he doesn't think that the
00:40:11
experiment changed the outcome of Ted kaczynski's life or not right I don't think that it did I think he's
00:40:18
absolutely right in saying that I'm saying I don't think it helped if no it doesn't if he was having any kind of
00:40:24
issues or problems before that this certainly would not have helped this young man and many people have pointed
00:40:30
out that look there were other people that were subjected to the same experiment and they didn't go on to blow
00:40:36
people up they didn't they want to be 16 years old that and that's what I'm pointing out that's different set of
00:40:41
circumstances here he he's younger on on all on every level imaginable emotional
00:40:47
intellectually and developmentally you know it and so on I mean look I mean he just to go over his history a little
00:40:57
bit you know he scores high on this IQ test they skip in one grade a couple uh grades go by then they end
00:41:04
up skipping him another grade uh he did some summer classes so then that's how he got to Harvard at the age of 16. but
00:41:12
your your family lives in Chicago and they're sending you across halfway across the United States to go live by
00:41:20
yourself and he just wasn't ready but again there is no record of any homicidal thoughts
00:41:27
or even I believe Suicidal Thoughts until after the experiment to me that is proof I mean one of the things that you
00:41:36
hear constantly when you're looking up Ted Kaczynski is that uh you know Harvard isn't responsible for any of
00:41:43
these actions and none of these deaths should be at a place at Harvard's door and I I argue completely against that I
00:41:52
mean a year after these experiments he is in Michigan talking to therapists about homicidal thoughts I think it's
00:42:01
direct correlation and again if if you had any evidence of it beforehand then I would say maybe it didn't change the
00:42:09
outcome of this kid's life but I I think the this experiment was um you know and again it's also stated
00:42:16
like as fact that this experiment was like mko Ultra and that's not true we don't know for certain what this
00:42:26
everything that took place with inside this experiment so Ted himself is saying that it didn't
00:42:32
affect him or he doesn't think it affected him I think it did affect him and also what he's getting wise to is
00:42:42
how much information they have against him but how all that information is connected to the cabin so now his
00:42:50
thought is if I can get you know the information from the cabin thrown out then I could walk out of here
00:42:58
scot-free yeah he doesn't really get them to he doesn't trick them into presenting the evidence to him they make
00:43:05
the mistake of presenting the evidence to him because they want to get a confession from Ted Kaczynski because
00:43:13
they do not have that great of a case against this guy so they're really hoping to get him to sign on the dotted
00:43:20
line and confess to all of these attacks and the murders and you're right though quickly and they
00:43:27
don't have a good case against them because they have thousands of pieces of evidence against them then why are they
00:43:33
going after a confession I understand that they they had lots of evidence against the guy they wanted a
00:43:40
confession from Ted Kaczynski well because there was no direct evidence to anything
00:43:47
like the actual bombs or anything there's no fingerprints on those bombs and so all they had was these these
00:43:53
diagrams and these these notes but that what I'm saying is they had thousands of
00:43:58
pieces of those correct but he very quickly realizes during the interrogation process that they are
00:44:06
presenting their evidence to him and yes he's going to flip it and use it against
00:44:11
them and tell them you know you based your search warrant off of linguistics that is that's just a word that's just a
00:44:20
term that you kind of made up this is not something that has been used in previous search warrants yes I guess
00:44:27
pseudoscience right so if you're going to use that if I can get this search warrant tossed out then that evidence
00:44:34
that you collected from my cabin from my shed will be tossed out as well and then
00:44:39
you have nothing yeah and I think also some of this is maybe not so much that he goes free I'm
00:44:48
sure he doesn't want to be caught or be put in prison but I also wonder how much
00:44:52
of this uh attitude that he has about this is trying to protect his belongings and
00:45:00
his life work for the last several years yeah well some of that is built into this because
00:45:07
the natural defense here would be an insanity plea or an insanity defense right and
00:45:15
the problem with that is well if he avoids the death penalty and says hey I'm insane and that's my defense that we
00:45:24
put together well then what did any of this stand for it was supposed to be built around this
00:45:30
whole mission this whole agenda of him in the freedom Club well what does this Mission even mean if the man who put it
00:45:37
together and orchestrated everything is an insane person well normally when we have these ramblings that we see from
00:45:45
these killers later that's what they are they're unintelligible ramblings or or rants or or however you want to
00:45:54
look at it and I I I'm not saying that you should read this Manifesto and agree with them
00:46:00
but I but I think what he is what he is saying is is also a little unique and the reason why is because most people
00:46:09
say look technology is happening and you either have to jump on board or you don't and he's making he's making the
00:46:17
statement hey technology will happen but only if we allow it and maybe we need to
00:46:24
pick and choose what we allow as far as technology goes and so to your point I think Ted
00:46:31
Kaczynski is really worried the easy way out is go hey I was insane but then this Manifesto that I worked on
00:46:39
for years people just dismiss it as the ramblings of somebody that's insane and they're not even going to take the time
00:46:46
to read it yeah I would think that that was his one of his many concerns my my own personal opinion of his Manifesto of
00:46:55
that manuscript is it it sounds like the you said unin intellectual ramblings of
00:47:02
a raving mad man this is the intellectual ramblings of a Madman it's yeah I think that's a good way to put it
00:47:13
it's there's certainly some Brilliance there again you can tell it was written by an intelligent entity maybe I'm a
00:47:21
little Askew in my thoughts and and uh comprehension and perception of the document itself because I know who wrote
00:47:29
it where if you were looking at it blindly not knowing who or what group wrote it maybe you would think of it a
00:47:37
little differently but one thing that I think kind of torqued me off a lot when researching this case was these
00:47:48
morons online praising Ted Kaczynski for this manuscript and saying how brilliant
00:47:55
the man is and how brilliant the manuscript is and even to the point of people going
00:48:02
you you guys are just ignorant you can't see it one day you'll realize he was right
00:48:08
he was right are you freaking kidding me well no he's not again I think a lot of
00:48:15
those individuals have to start the conversation with forget every action that he did and then
00:48:22
just look at this paper as a whole I think the the paper as a whole degrades most of us as human beings
00:48:31
it's that's what I question how many of these people posting their thoughts and opinions in an approval appraisal of
00:48:40
this document actually bothered to read it yeah but it degrades African-American
00:48:47
people it spends a good majority of the document talking about the over sociable
00:48:54
people the the left people it's grouping a whole bunch of batch of people together and then criticizing them and
00:49:03
what in the end are we losing Ted we're losing our freedoms what are our freedoms when you look at it we all are
00:49:10
slaves to something at the very core of our Essence and our being we all have to eat we all have to pay
00:49:18
taxes these things that you might perceive us to be slaves of in the future yes I get that that's a threat
00:49:25
but Freedom really is of course it's a physical thing but it's also it's also a state of mind
00:49:33
my my version of Freedom might not be the same as Ted kaczynski's no I understand that but I that it's a
00:49:41
lot easier for us as Americans to sit there and say that we are free um and you look at what's going on in
00:49:51
China with like the Muslims and and then basically in internment camps over there and ask them how free they
00:49:59
are and how free that Society is so but he's attacking my society and he's condemning my Society that's where
00:50:08
I have a problem you know what Ted I want the freedom to open up my mail without my hands being blown off
00:50:13
no I understand that but I I think what they're I think sometimes when these authors are
00:50:22
are saying look these are threats and these are things that the that Society needs to wake up to
00:50:30
and I think there's look there's a lot of times we were talking the other day I watched the Jake Paul fight
00:50:37
it it was some of the lowest form of entertainment that I've seen in my whole lifetime it was is almost
00:50:45
embarrassing and then you start wondering is this the way Society is going and uh 1.5 million views one of the highest
00:50:55
pay-per-view buy-ins for any boxing event and and so I think he I think he's questioning society as a whole and and
00:51:05
why are people spending so much time on their computer or spending so much time in front of their TVs when there's maybe
00:51:12
more important stuff to be thinking about if that makes any sense no it makes a lot of sense I think what I what
00:51:20
I see here Captain is it looks to me like somebody who did he he did in fact have these ideas he did in fact have
00:51:27
these concerns but he used them as almost a rationalization for what it probably was that he ultimately wanted
00:51:39
to do he wanted to punish the society that didn't accept him he wanted to harm those who did not accept him he could
00:51:47
not well hold on and here's the problem too is society did not reject him he actually rejected Society correct I
00:51:55
would argue on in your defense I would argue the people that are looking at this Manifesto and saying you have to
00:52:02
forget about the murders well you shouldn't you can't and and that's not that's that's not part of the equation
00:52:09
you know Ted Kaczynski likes math part of the equation is that in order to get heard you decided to attack other
00:52:19
people's freedoms so an Accenture a hypocrite on top of that you didn't write this letter
00:52:26
you use technology used a typewriter it might be a a small form of a of type of Technology but it was Tech at the time
00:52:36
it was Tech at the time and you bought a little more than an acre and then you started seeing real estate
00:52:45
being developed and and you came up with this the again to attack innocent people
00:52:51
that did nothing to you I I feel totally different about Ted Kaczynski if he attacked Henry Murray right that
00:53:01
experimented on him for three years but what happened to the kid that had empathy for the caged animals
00:53:09
what happened to that guy well and he chose terrorism to as a platform for his message to teach the rest of us to
00:53:18
educate the rest of us he was a freaking teacher at a University at a well-respected university two of them he
00:53:25
had a platform yeah he had a platform where he could teach everyone and you know what it
00:53:31
makes me think of when when he was an active teacher and all these other teachers out there
00:53:36
and then compare compare that to the crazy man living in a cabin out in the middle of Montana
00:53:44
it's like Martin Luther King Jr and James Earl Ray you had two guys that had two completely
00:53:51
different sets of ideals they chose completely different methods in the way to deliver and express their
00:54:00
thoughts and concerns to the public yeah and um but but here's where here's where I feel bad for Ted
00:54:10
Kaczynski it's because I think a lot of times we start questioning with Ted Bundy with
00:54:18
I mean look I mean it's you know it's 4 20 uh Columbine Adolf Hitler who you start questioning the chicken or
00:54:28
the egg are these people just born evil or were they created to be evil and this is one case that I could say I
00:54:38
lean towards the idea that Ted was created to be evil like maybe they didn't know that that was going to be
00:54:44
the side effect of the experiment but I think that was the outcome of the experiment
00:54:50
and that that's angers me because one I mean 50 million dollars spent by the FBI 50 million dollars of our our
00:55:01
taxpayer money spent to try to catch this psycho how much money have we spent on his uh
00:55:09
trials and his appeals and and his incarceration and his communication with the outside
00:55:16
world how much have we spent on this guy and and and he might have been created by
00:55:23
experiments at Harvard one thing that's really interesting too here Captain is you have the Kaczynski
00:55:30
family his mother and his brother who said yeah at some point in his you know when
00:55:37
he's 16 17 18 years old we started to realize that there was something wrong with Ted
00:55:44
however we didn't fully understand what it was we kind of just chalked it up to oh he's an oddball he's depressed he's a
00:55:53
genius we can't really understand him yeah some people said that Ted was like a walking computer that
00:56:01
that some people didn't even view him as human well he would say things that were
00:56:05
very uncomfortable to the people that were actually somewhat close to him as close as anybody could be to Ted
00:56:11
Kaczynski a man with very few friends if any at all but you know his brother and
00:56:17
his mother said that he would say things that you could tell were these were suicidal Expressions
00:56:23
homicidal type of expressions and ultimately the Nathan R lead that the FBI was looking for they never
00:56:33
identified a Nathan R tied to Ted Kaczynski or any other real aspect of the Unabomber case itself in fact two
00:56:43
there's two beliefs here of where that came from either the Ted Kaczynski himself did that on purpose to throw
00:56:51
them off or that it was simply something that happened in transit before the letter
00:56:58
got to the FBI that somebody else wrote a note over top of this letter so that lead really never led to
00:57:05
anything in the end captain at trial there was a lot of weird and difficulties with his trial itself and I
00:57:13
don't want to go too far into it because it it looked to me like the court system
00:57:17
basically wanted to say you're crazy but not crazy enough um it seemed a little weird on the whole
00:57:25
Insanity idea and of course as we already pointed out Ted originally did not want he was insistent that he was
00:57:33
not insane that what he stood for meant something what what his actions were stood for
00:57:39
something yeah and I don't know how heavily involved his brother was but I I do know
00:57:46
that there was talks with the FBI and his brother's lawyer about what would happen to Ted so I I want to I wonder
00:57:54
how much he uh helped steer The Narrative even during the trial well what he what happened was Ted was trying
00:58:01
to dismiss his attorneys very late in the court proceedings and the the uh judge was pretty much like no you're not
00:58:12
going to dismiss your attorneys this late we've been dealing with this forever right and if we throw them out
00:58:20
now you get a chance to start over your whole defense which could take a year or
00:58:25
two we're dealing with this now you cannot dismiss your attorneys and so ultimately Ted Kaczynski ends up
00:58:32
pleading uh giving the insanity plea to avoid the death penalty so he ends up being he ends up receiving several life
00:58:41
sentences to be served out at the adx Florence which is a United States Penitentiary administrative maximum
00:58:50
facility this is an American federal prison in Fremont County near Florence Colorado it
00:58:57
is operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons so this is different than regular prisons here Captain this is a
00:59:07
division of the United States Department of Justice operates this prison this prison opened up in 1994 and is
00:59:15
classified as a super max or a control unit prison this meaning that it provides a higher more controlled level
00:59:24
of custody than even a Maximum Security Prison and if you look at the list of some of the other inmates that are
00:59:32
serving their time there as well as Ted Kaczynski it's some of the biggest names
00:59:39
out there it's a lot of terrorists to be honest with you it's a lot of foreign terrorists and domestic terrorists that
00:59:45
have been housed in there throughout the years as well as people who've committed
00:59:50
crimes of espionage on but at the end of the day no matter how smart Ted Kaczynski is I
00:59:57
mean that's what he is he's a American domestic terrorist in one of Ted's Journal passages dated sometime between
01:00:04
the Autumn of 1977 and early 1978 when the bombing campaign was just beginning and Ted Kaczynski was still an amateur
01:00:13
bomb Builder remember he's trying to become a better bomb maker a more deadly attacker
01:00:20
he wrote to himself quote I emphasize that my motivation is personal Revenge I don't pretend any kind of philosophical
01:00:27
or moralistic justification my ambition is to kill a scientist big businessman government official or the like I would
01:00:37
also like to kill a communist Ted Kaczynski wrote In 1980 that the bombings made him feel less angry quote
01:00:45
since committing these crimes reported elsewhere in my notes I feel better I am still plenty angry you have to
01:00:53
understand the blank remember these are coming from some coded journals you have
01:00:59
to understand the blank is that I am now able to blank to a degree and when his bombings were not lethal
01:01:08
when they were when they did not kill or they did not significantly injure the individual who opened up the bomb he
01:01:16
said that they were not a success that that bomb was a failure he was hoping that every bomb would blow off hands or
01:01:24
kill the person that opened up the package the only way for his work to be quote successful as Ted Kaczynski saw it
01:01:32
was to kill the person that opened up the package in July of 1999 this is an interview
01:01:40
article by David Bowman on salon.com the article is titled profiler and it's an interview with John Douglas Bowman asked
01:01:49
Douglas a follow-up to a follow-up question Bowman was asking about psycho killers in general and then asking has
01:01:58
there ever been this kind of killer that are a do-good killer angels of Justice Dexter types specifically have there
01:02:07
been any environmentalist psycho Killers who kill loggers or strip miners and Douglas gives his answer Theodore
01:02:17
Kaczynski the Unabomber thought he was doing that but when I started analyzing the case
01:02:23
Douglas said forget his hatred of Technology he don't give a [ __ ] he just wants to kill he enjoys killing and
01:02:31
wants to dominate and control there's the Oklahoma bombing that gets the front page two or three days later we have a
01:02:40
professor killed on the East Coast that's Kaczynski saying quote I'm the big guy here who's this Oklahoma City
01:02:48
bomber foreign thank you friends for joining us here back in the garage for another gripping
01:03:07
interesting story Colonel do we have any recommended reading this week this week
01:03:12
we are recommending every last tie the story of the Unabomber and his family by David Kaczynski in August 1995 David
01:03:21
kaczynski's wife Linda asked him a very difficult question do you think your brother Ted is the Unabomber he couldn't
01:03:29
be David thought but as the couple poured over the Unabomber 78-page Manifesto David couldn't rule out the
01:03:37
possibility it slowly became clear to them that Ted was likely responsible for mailing the 17 bombs that killed three
01:03:44
people and injured many more wanting to prevent further violence David made the agonizing decision to turn his brother
01:03:52
in to the FBI make sure you check out every last Tie by David Kaczynski you can find that title and many more on our
01:04:01
recommended page at True Crime garage.com and until next week be good be kind and don't let her
01:04:15
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