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GameChanger [Music] welcome to True crab garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:01:44
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man with a closet full of
00:01:49
guns and a freezer full of meat but he's fresh out of toilet paper he is the captain no poo poo paper for you my
00:01:56
friend it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks thanks for listening thanks for telling a
00:02:02
[Music] friend this week we are very very excited to be featuring one of my favorite beers we have featured this
00:02:15
before but there is great cause to bring it back ladies and gentlemen trumpets please five out of five bottle caps for
00:02:23
Dortmund gold from my friends at the Great Lakes Brewing Company this is an awardwinning flag ship logger that now
00:02:31
as of just this month is available in a beautiful 12 oz and 16 o cans my how we have come a long way and
00:02:42
today we are toasting with one of our favorites to some of our favorites first up cheers to Amber in Humble Texas Amber
00:02:51
says the beer that she's buying that she's providing to the Beer fund Captain is for you because of your awesome
00:02:58
takedown of Scott Peterson the cheating Turtle yeah Scott the piece of [ __ ] Peterson and a big shout out to
00:03:08
Christie in Melbourne Australia next up we have Jennifer in Salem New Hampshire and a big shout out to Lori in Dallas
00:03:17
Texas next up we have Emily in Chicago and last but certainly not least a big cheers and thank you to Catherine in
00:03:24
Orlando Florida everyone we just mentioned went to True Crime garage.com and contributed to this week's beer fund
00:03:32
and for that we thank you yeah we thank you and thanks for joining us we know it's tough
00:03:39
times it's tough here in the garage keep your distance keep your distance Colonel
00:03:46
or I'll sock you in the mouth and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather around at a safe
00:03:52
distance grab a chair not too close grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music]
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the murders of Stevie Branch Christopher Byers and Michael Moore all just 8-year-olds was the Genesis of a triple
00:04:38
homicide case that is typically known today as the West Memphis 3 however the phrase West Memphis 3 refers to the
00:04:47
three teenagers convicted of killing the three little boys on May 5th 1993 in a town west of Memphis an
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appropriately named West Memphis AR Arkansas the three 8-year-old boys were reported
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missing initial police searches that night were limited a more thorough search for the boys began the next
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morning at 8:00 a.m. after 1: p.m. the boys were found but not to a good end all were dead found submerged in
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muddy creek water each boy had been stripped and what has been commonly referred to as
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hog tie each with shoelaces belonging to the boys the drainage ditch contained two of
00:05:36
the children's bikes and the clothing that the boys were wearing when last seen alive the clothing was mostly turned
00:05:44
inside out and twisted around sticks and stuck in the mud below the surface water the Frank Paretti autopsies
00:05:54
indicated that Christopher died from multiple injuries and possibly bled to death death and Stevie and Michael died
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from multiple injuries and drowning they were murdered the bodies and evidence concealed in the Muddy Waters located in
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a small patch of woods known as Robin Hood Hills almost 1 month later on June 3rd
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at 2:44 in the afternoon detective Brian Ridge and inspector Gary itell got 17-year-old Jesse Miss Kelly to confess
00:06:33
to being involved in the murders the confession filled with inconsistencies errors and statements
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that go against some of the very basic known facts of this case Jesse implicated 16-year-old Jason
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Baldwin and 18-year-old Damen Eckles as the as salant rapist and murderers of the three
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boys the next morning at a press conference announcing the arrest of the three teenagers inspector gell was asked
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by a reporter on a scale of 1 to 10 how solid do you feel your case is gitel smiled and replied
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11 legendary FBI profiler John Douglas later called this moment that Golden Nugget of law enforcement
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theater in 1994 the three teens were convicted of the murders David Bernett was the
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presiding judge Damen Eckles was sentenced to death Jason Baldwin was sentenced to
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life imprisonment and in a separate trial Jesse mkelly Jr was sentenced to life in prison plus two 20-year
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sentences the HBO documentary Paradise Lost the Child Murders At Robin Hood Hills documented the case and the two
00:07:59
Tri trials the now famous film which was followed by Parts 2 and three inspired Justice Advocates to unite and take
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action an army was formed men and women some of them celebrities some of them from far away all United for one common
00:08:20
cause to free the West Memphis 3 but if the West Memphis 3 were innocent then who committed the murder
00:08:30
many after watching the documentaries grew suspicious regarding two of the parents Christopher's adopted Father
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John Mark buers and Stevie Branch's stepfather Terry Hobs both look guilty for different
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reasons following a successful decision regarding newly produced DNA evidence the West Memphis 3 negotiated a plea
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bargain with prosecutors in August of 2011 they entered Alfred please which allowed them
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to assert their innocence while acknowledging that the prosecutors had enough evidence to convict
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them after having served 18 years and 78 days in prison Judge David laser accepted the Polie and sentenced the
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three to time served and they were released in a packed courtroom judge laser spoke from the bench quote I am
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aware of the controversy that's existed I'm aware of the involvement of the people in this
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case I don't think it will make the pain go away to the victim families I don't think it will take away a minute of the
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18 years that these three young men served in the Arkansas Department of Corrections what I just described is
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tragedy on all sides and I commend the people in the case that have assisted toward the end of seeing the justices
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served to the best that we can do it took nearly 20 years to write just some of the many wrongs in this case but
00:10:08
somewhere along the way of this long journey that took the Valiant efforts of so many something was lost and almost
00:10:20
forgotten the three little boys that were killed and lost their lives that day the families of these three will
00:10:28
never get get them back so this is not the best we can do because there's still time to get Justice for Stevie
00:10:37
Christopher and Michael the Forgotten West Memphis [Music] 3 [Music] [Music] Bob how much did Paradise Lost one two
00:11:17
and three play a part into your look into the case was it any type of inspiration for selecting this case uh
00:11:26
take us into to the Bob Ruff World a little bit on why you chose the West Memphis 3 yeah you know it's funny
00:11:33
because Paradise Lost the entire Trilogy did play a big role in why I selected the case for truth and justice but in a
00:11:41
weird kind of way um you know I would I I study wrongful conviction cases because that's what I do for a living
00:11:47
right so it's um I always go into these big famous ones and study them just to look for you know patterns and things to
00:11:54
look for because we get we get hundreds of cases every month submitted to us to look at and so I like to see you know
00:12:00
what you know is there a jail house Niche involved you know there's is there not much physical evidence is there you
00:12:05
know a potential wrong or false false confession there's a lot of little patterns that happen so I was just
00:12:11
watching the documentaries just to get an idea of what the case was about and what inspired me actually to to cover
00:12:20
the case on truth and Justice was actually the fact that after I watched the series and I was trying to talk to
00:12:27
to Mike my producer and and co-host about it I couldn't remember the names of the
00:12:33
victims and and and and it bugged me a lot and I really started to think about it and I started to look you know to do
00:12:39
a little more Googling and things and I just found that all of the media attention always focused around the West
00:12:46
Memphis 3 you know Damen Jason and Jesse and and our show we try to be very victim Centric you know and based on the
00:12:54
victims not only you know to to try to give them a voice but at the same time that is you know critical to any real
00:13:02
investigation should always start with a very thorough study of victimology to help develop a profile and it just
00:13:08
seemed like that was never done in this case and certainly in the media you know
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while those documentaries were amazing and so was west of Memphis and and they accomplished an amazing goal of freeing
00:13:19
the West Memphis 3 that never would have happened without them they I didn't feel
00:13:23
like there was enough Justice given to the victims and that's why we we named our our season five on the podcast and
00:13:31
the TV series The Forgotten West Memphis 3 because they seem to have gotten lost
00:13:35
in a lot of the shuffle what do you think you learn by studying these three victims well the
00:13:43
biggest thing that I learned by studying them is that my perception and the perception of Mo I'll say casual
00:13:51
observers of the case because there are certainly people that have been digging into like documents for for decades now
00:13:57
but but the General consensus always seemed to be that there were three boys who were just out playing having a great
00:14:06
afternoon and then they ended up kind of stumbling into however they were killed
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uh you know and of course back in you know the '90s with the satanic Panic they assume they stumbled into a Satanic
00:14:16
ritual killing but then you then later it became they stumbled into something else so they look at like the the
00:14:23
Bojangles man or you know maybe it was some you know some transient trucker or somebody
00:14:29
uh but what I found when I studied the victimology I was shocked and we spent I think three full hour episodes going
00:14:35
through the 140 page door-to-door notes in the case from the the canvasing after
00:14:40
the bodies were found and what I found when we start to piece all of those sightings together is that the boys
00:14:46
actually weren't together most of the day first of all you know you had Stevie and Michael were together for a minute
00:14:52
or for a little while and then Christopher was alone and then maybe Christopher and Michael and Stevie was
00:14:56
gone there's definitely a big Gap in time when Stevie was was missing an action when I which is when I believe he
00:15:02
actually returned to his house for a short time uh you know and then they they only became got together right
00:15:09
before they went into the woods and then and then of course the revelation we find in the notes that one of Chris's
00:15:15
friends reported that that uh Chris straight told him that you know he was upset because his daddy whipped him and
00:15:21
that he was running away and so the the big I think the the thing that I learned
00:15:25
most was that these boys didn't stumble into anything they were running away from something and that dramatically
00:15:32
changes the course of the investigation now obviously you are covering this case
00:15:37
many many years after the fact but when the initial uh documentary was planned to do the first Paradise Lost and they
00:15:46
received permission to film or record both of the trials that were to take place the documentarians went in there
00:15:55
with the idea that these three teenagers were guilty like that was a juicy enough
00:16:00
story in itself and then once they're viewing the the trials they start hearing the evidence and and the uh
00:16:09
eyewitness testimony and so on and so forth and they start going well there's something that's not right here this
00:16:14
this doesn't appear to be the actual case and then of course Paradise loss turns into almost this movement to try
00:16:21
to free the West Memphis 3 when you went into this and of course we understand it
00:16:27
was years later but did you go into it with with the idea of okay these guys are completely innocent or maybe Mark
00:16:35
buers had something to do with this or Terry Hobbs or I mean did you go into this with anything uh prior thought uh
00:16:43
of what knowledge you had of the case or did you not really have an opinion of it
00:16:48
at all until you started looking into it oh I I definitely had an opinion but I tried
00:16:53
to I tried to approach it from a really unbiased perspective because because now
00:17:00
both of you guys I I know um uh definitely Captain I don't know Nick were you were you a big fan not the
00:17:07
right word but were you really interested in the case for for years to come or was that more just Captain's
00:17:12
thing yeah I mean it's always been one of my uh pet cases I guess it's it's one that's so easy to get sucked into um and
00:17:21
actually just knowing that we were going to talk today pulled me right back in I
00:17:26
mean it's one of the most fascinating cases out there right it really is so when you watch and and I guess I'll I'll
00:17:32
ask I'll ask you and Captain because I want I want to know if I'm alone in this after you watched if if you watch them
00:17:39
in order after you watched part two of The Paradise law series who did you think was probably
00:17:45
the most likely suspect so that's what's so interesting to me about Paradise one
00:17:51
and two is and I might have had a different opinion after watching the first one than maybe most I watched that
00:17:59
first one on HBO when I was a kid I don't know how many times and I always walked away from the first one going you
00:18:06
know what I actually think these three teenagers did it and then of course you watch Paradise Lost 2 and it looks like
00:18:13
Mark buers he just time and time again comes up looking guilty and more guilty and
00:18:20
that that he was the one that did it and of course he's also this large loud imposing man uh he's also an authority
00:18:28
figure to Chris and the other boys as well he might know the area I mean there's just so many reasons why you can
00:18:34
go all right well maybe maybe he looks good for this right and that was exactly my experience I was Wonder Captain did
00:18:41
you have did you think the same after you watched part two well after I watched part one my first thought was
00:18:48
that I feel Jason Baldwin is very transparent he's very believable and everything he's saying I I I believe
00:18:57
100% that he had nothing to do with the crime then when you look at the confession with Jesse Miss Kelly it
00:19:04
doesn't really line up with what the crime actually was but I could never get over the boogeyman comment from Damen
00:19:14
Eckles at oh yeah at the end at the end of part one he's like well now I'm going
00:19:19
to be known as like the boogeyman of West Memphis and kids are going to say well maybe Damian's under my bed or he's
00:19:26
in the closet and that to me didn't seem like something a a innocent person would
00:19:31
say oh for sure I mean really kind of spot on with what you think Captain when I watched part one I thought maybe
00:19:39
they're innocent um definitely I felt like Baldwin was innocent but Damian and I wasn't so sure about and then after I
00:19:47
watched part two I was convinced that Mark buers was the was the murderer I mean 100% I I remember coming into cuz I
00:19:55
watched these late it was 3 years ago remember coming to the office and telling Mike I was like dude holy [ __ ]
00:20:01
that that this this guy this guy killed him the the the adopted father killed him I he had his teeth removed and blah
00:20:07
blah you know all the different things from there I was convinced after part two that it was that it was Mark buers
00:20:13
and that's you know that's kind of why was you know when you asked if I had kind of an
00:20:17
opinion that swing from there then of course after three everybody thinks Terry Hobbs did it right you know that's
00:20:24
that's kind of what they left you with and then west of Memphis and so for me it was like okay I need to approach this
00:20:30
from a completely unbiased perspective because Joe Berlinger just just [ __ ] me up in three documentaries in a row
00:20:38
because you know I didn't watch them as they came out I I watched all three of them back to back over the course of a
00:20:42
week and I watched you know based on the way they were produced I went from thinking oh maybe they're guilty Jason's
00:20:48
probably innocent to oh my God it has to be Mark buers it's obvious to part three
00:20:55
was like oh no it has to be Terry Hobbs it's obvious I was like man if if I'm being swayed that much by the media
00:21:00
there's got to be a lot more to this case than the way they're presenting it and so that that really led me into
00:21:06
taking a completely unbiased approach and try to look at the investigation which is what we did in season 5 when we
00:21:12
covered truth and uh the West Memphis 3 is to go all the way back to ground zero
00:21:18
and just basically start a brand new investigation and see where it leads us well I became a big fan of yours when
00:21:24
you were covering seral and I really like the approach that you took there where you you had a
00:21:32
thought process and then you kind of try to prove yourself wrong and I always I always like taking that approach but to
00:21:40
me West Memphis 3 is very similar to the Adon Sayad case where people look at the
00:21:46
case and we are presented from these documentaries we're presented all these cast of characters and people always see
00:21:56
like you said are the teenage boys guilty or is it one of the the stepfathers and everybody seems to have
00:22:07
strong opinions of the characters that are cast for us it it seems like not too many people look outside that cast of
00:22:14
characters and it it seems like there's no new cast of characters in West Memphis 3 in the last 20 years right
00:22:22
well when you see the uh I know we're recording this before you see the series um and you're airing it after
00:22:28
um but but hopefully you you you won't have that opinion after this weekend because we have you know I hate to you
00:22:33
know you're you're right in the term cast of characters I I don't you know it makes it seem like it's a story but one
00:22:39
of the things I wanted to do was get away from the The Sensational you know the cameras are always on Damian right
00:22:47
and you know through Paradise loss it's Damien and John Mark buers are are key characters and it's because they're the
00:22:53
most interesting right when you're watching it you know you you know Damian is saying things like I'm going to be
00:22:58
the boogeyman under their bed and Mark buers is blowing up [ __ ] pumpkins and and you know lighting bonfires at the at
00:23:07
the discovery site uh but there's there's a lot more important characters I think that that you've never seen on
00:23:17
on TV before you've never seen it in the documentaries You' never seen it anywhere you know we have you
00:23:23
know I don't know how you want do you want me to uh me do you want me to spoil some of what's coming up since they're
00:23:29
going to hear it after or no well how about we just since since it's going that route how about we just dive into
00:23:36
some of the details of the case and get your opinion on some of those okay question marks and if it comes up it
00:23:44
comes up if it doesn't we'll force you into it here at the end um sure I'd hate to spoil it too early in our discussion
00:23:51
uh because we got a lot of questions a lot of things on our mind it's rare for us we we think we know the case very
00:23:58
well we covered it on True Crime garage a long time ago um we it's way too big to cover it in in just a few episodes we
00:24:07
tried in three but all we really thought that we achieved was we pointed out a timeline that came from from very
00:24:16
credible sources and from police reports and and eyewitness statements and so on
00:24:20
and so forth that seem to indicate that it would have been very difficult almost
00:24:26
impossible on the time for John Mark buers to have committed the crime uh especially by himself we we found a
00:24:34
timeline that seemed to be that he was with somebody else and in a a whole different batch of people along the way
00:24:42
pretty much most of that evening and night so um I think the first thing and this is really good for people that
00:24:49
don't know the case very well um but but we're excited to get to talk to you cuz
00:24:54
we feel you know this case really well and that's why we we want to get your opinions on these things but for the
00:25:00
people that don't know the case well one thing I think the public may have trouble grasping but they do need to
00:25:07
understand as it's very important to how things played out the way they did so I
00:25:13
think if you could kind of talk to this a little bit but we need to have an understanding of the level of poverty
00:25:19
here in regards to the three boys that were arrested for the murders and in regards to the lifestyle of the three
00:25:28
young victims because the the three that were arrested EXT they were extremely poor unfortunately and the three victims
00:25:37
were a little more middle class um could you talk and expand on that a bit Yeah the what's interesting really is
00:25:46
that a little more middle class I guess is a good way to put it but the the entire you know Captain used the term
00:25:53
cast of characters earlier and if you look at it like that the entire cast of characters here they're all you know at
00:26:00
the poverty line or below the including the victim's families you know so you have definitely the the three convicted
00:26:07
you know they're they're living in very uh low low rent trailer parks you know and
00:26:15
and I've been out to these places they haven't changed much since then um definitely on the lower income scale uh
00:26:22
but but even the three the three victims you know you had you know the the the buyer everybody was working they had
00:26:29
jobs and they were getting by but these people definitely weren't thriving and you had
00:26:37
interesting situation in just about every family you know you had you know we we had on our show we had Dawn Moore
00:26:42
who's Michael Moore's sister who had never been interviewed before and she was on the podcast in season five and
00:26:48
she gave us a whole new look into the uh the household of the Moors right so their issue their asent seemed like it
00:26:56
was alcohol ISM she said you know both her mom and dad were alcoholics it was an abusive situation and so that wasn't
00:27:03
the you know the the the picture I had when studying victimology of what that household looks like you know you go
00:27:09
across the street to the buyer's household and you know again they're getting by but they're they struggle a
00:27:14
little bit financially and you have uh you you have some drug addiction both on um Chris byer's Mother's part and his
00:27:22
adopted father and then you go down to the the U Stevie ranch's household the Hobs household you know yet Pam and Pam
00:27:31
and Terry were both working they seemed on the surface to be the most stable but
00:27:34
then we find out later that there's uh possibly allegedly some abuse that's going on there and then also maybe some
00:27:40
some drug use down there as well so you you had nobody was in nobody was in good
00:27:46
shape so to speak as far as in their household either they're struggling financially they're struggling
00:27:51
struggling with substance substance abuse or they're struggling with physical abuse in in all of these
00:27:57
different commun unities but but most but definitely the three that were convicted uh Damen Jason and Jesse they
00:28:05
they were throwaways for sure and when I say that I mean that they were as you said they they were extremely poor much
00:28:10
more so than the three victims and once they were targeted by police whether they actually believed they did it or if
00:28:17
they were in fact targeted that's up for speculation but once they were targeted
00:28:22
there was there was nobody there to to fight for them they didn't have any money they didn't have lawyers they just
00:28:27
you know they were they were throwaways there were people that I think the powers that be and particularly the West
00:28:32
Memphis Police Department thought you know we can lock these people up close this case everybody's going to be happy
00:28:39
and no one really cares what happens to these three kids well I'm back to one of
00:28:44
the things you were saying before that when you're looking at the victimology like you said it changes
00:28:51
from here's these three boys hanging out and they stumble upon something as you were saying you were getting into the
00:28:59
idea that they're running from something uh what evidence did you find could you find evidence to back
00:29:08
that up yeah well I mean a big part of it is the fact that we we find weird anomalies throughout the sightings of
00:29:15
them throughout the day where they're not together they disappear and then when you when you you study so let's
00:29:20
look at it Stevie branch in particularly Stevie was probably the most well behaved
00:29:27
of the three based on what we see from you know school reports you know we had sounds like you know what we would call
00:29:33
today Chris buers and Michael Moore both suffered from from ADHD which I can relate to I have a nine-year-old that
00:29:39
has the same issue um tend to be a little more mischievous but you know Stevie was a rule follower and he pretty
00:29:45
much stayed out of trouble and he was told that he needed to be home by you know be 4:30
00:29:49
4:45 um and so you had to believe that he's going to do his best to make that happen and then the sightings seem to
00:29:56
indicate that that did happen you know they disappeared and then you have there's some medical evidence that
00:30:01
Stevie has partially digested green vegetable like food in his stomach well that that can only occur for about an
00:30:10
hour hour and a half before it moves past that stage in the stomach which means somewhere along the lines he went
00:30:15
and ate some vegetables which would be a good indication that he he did go home but then he left again so then so then
00:30:21
why is he he leaving now we don't know but it it seems like and then if you take Jamie Clark Ballard statement which
00:30:28
you know I don't necessarily think is entirely credible but she she reports that she sees Terry yelling at him to to
00:30:34
get back down there and and just the fact that Stevie leaves again after dinner and then what we learn later in
00:30:40
his victimology study that we have there there has been reported abuse from uh his stepdad Terry Hobbs and that's come
00:30:46
from some family members but also uh and and people that I've interviewed outside
00:30:51
of the family uh have have have told us the same thing that you know that they were always kind of afraid for Stevie
00:30:58
because of some beatings that he would take from Terry so so there's some indications with Stevie Christopher is
00:31:04
easier because we he literally went to the kid's name is Bobby Posey's house in the doorto door notes and I've spoken
00:31:10
with Bobby posie we hear from him in the TV series you know and and he he goes to
00:31:15
tell Bobby that his daddy had just whipped him and that he's running away so there there's no we don't have to
00:31:20
speculate about if Chris buers was running away because he told it told his friends that he was running away we have
00:31:27
other witnesses that that we hear from in the TV series that say that they saw them with sleeping bags heading towards
00:31:32
the woods uh and and and Michael Moore was always kind of the leader of the group there's not so much with him as
00:31:39
far as direct evidence other than some things his sister told us about you know the the situation in the household and
00:31:45
and some potential abuse that could have been happening in the house household again that's according to her I that's
00:31:50
not verifiable so I would say alleged abuse that happens in the household so all that together and then with the
00:31:55
sightings that put them in different places at different times and then kind of coming together and then going to a
00:32:01
place where where they know they're not supposed to be and the fact that Stevie would go there when he really knows he's
00:32:07
supposed to be at home at that point to me is a those are all great indicators that they were running away from
00:32:14
something they weren't they weren't just in that that scary woods across the pipe
00:32:19
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visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie [Music] that and one of the boys one of the victims
00:34:31
was it Michael Moore that was known to be afraid of those woods uh Chris buers Chris
00:34:37
Byers yeah yeah he was terrified of the woods according to his uh to Mark buers and to his brother who we also hear from
00:34:44
in the TV series so what you're saying is it's not just one of the victims that was quote unquote running away but
00:34:53
possibly all three of them or friends trying to help help their friend out oh your dad whooped you you can't take this
00:35:00
anymore I'll help you out I'll I'll run away with you yeah you know this is kind
00:35:05
of somewhat speculation on my part but my theory is that it's kind of a standby me type of deal you know where the you
00:35:12
know the kids are kind of rising up against the you know the grown-ups and taking matters into their own hands I
00:35:17
think that you know again this is my theory is that Chris was fed up and running away I think that something I I
00:35:25
think that Stevie I I'll be honest I think Stevie did go home and eat and I think that he left and he was scared and
00:35:31
I think that Michael more than likely was the one that said hey I cuz we have we have note in the door Todo notes
00:35:37
Michael actually told a little girl that lived up near the pipe bridge that he's
00:35:41
going to go over to the other side of the bridge to the woods behind Mayflower to his secret hideout so I think I think
00:35:48
Michael becomes the kind of the Savior the leader that say you know these the other two are they want to run away and
00:35:54
get away from their parents and and Michael said says well here I can I know a spot let me lead the way and takes him
00:36:00
over there and John Mark buers he he admits that he hit Chris that day that afternoon um that he he disciplined him
00:36:11
right yeah and then we have hold on I'm I'm kind of trying to uh digest all this as we as we go
00:36:18
through this here so that's that's what I find very interesting at least about the the Robin Hood Hills portion of it
00:36:26
like do you believe that the boys were killed at Robin Hood Hills I mean from the autopsy it appears that two of the
00:36:33
boys drowned so of course two of them likely died there but um this is a pretty brutal attack do you think that
00:36:43
from the evidence that we see that you've reviewed anyway did this all take place in Robin Hood Hills OH 100% I I I
00:36:51
don't think there's any there's a million theories out there uh but after the thorough studying we've done of the
00:36:57
case and the new team of experts we brought in for the TV series it seems you as a matter of fact Dr Rebeca Shu
00:37:05
that was our new forensic pathologist that came in and looked at the autopsy you know her her determination was that
00:37:10
that all three boys died of drowning um that that you know there there were some
00:37:14
other injuries a couple of head injuries but basically all of the brutality that
00:37:20
we see on the boys was all postmortem animal activity that this was a this was not is as complicated as a crime as we
00:37:28
think but the the another big misconception is for people that and you know I in one of our episodes I just
00:37:35
mentioned it's funny that my my perception of those woods and where the boys bodies were found mostly came from
00:37:44
the the the movie adaptation of Marl lever's book The Devil's not when we see the I'm sure you guys have probably seen
00:37:51
that right yeah yeah yeah you know you know at the beginning when it shows them riding their bikes and they kind of they
00:37:56
go around the barrier and go into the woods and it shows them going through this remote Forest back to this Creek in
00:38:02
the middle of this huge Forest well that's where I thought this thing occur the crime occurred but the reality of it
00:38:09
is this was a tiny little patch of woods about the size of a football field you can literally I've done it I've stood
00:38:17
there and done it stand in the backyard of a house on the other side of the Bayou and throw a rock to the place
00:38:24
where the boys bodies were found I mean th this crime occurred right in the middle of there's a operating truck wash
00:38:31
to the West there's a there's a major Interstate to the north to the South is the Mayfair apartment and then there's a
00:38:37
a row of uh of houses with backyards but right up to the Bayou so the idea that that this could have occurred anywhere
00:38:46
besides there is is really in my opinion Preposterous because that means this is
00:38:51
where the the search efforts are focused right not necessarily across the pipe but in the Robin Hood Woods just south
00:38:56
of the Bayou south of the pipe some people were in the woods north of the pipe where the bodies were actually
00:39:02
found so the idea that if someone killed these boys or captured them somewhere else and they need to either a hiide the
00:39:09
bodies or go you know take them somewhere else to finally kill them that they would that the place they would
00:39:15
choose is this tiny little patch of woods where the only way you can get to it is either to park on the highway and
00:39:21
walk in to park at the truck wash and walk in or walk across the pipe bridge and front of the Mayfair apartment
00:39:27
carrying these bodies to conceal them right in the heart of the search efforts is is is bananas there's just no way
00:39:35
that would have happened I think the only reason the boys bodies were concealed where they were found is
00:39:41
because that's where the crime occurred and once it happened I think that the individual and I do think it was a
00:39:46
single individual once the boys were dead they knew I've got to get I've got to hide these bodies and I need to
00:39:52
create distance I've got to I've got to I've got to make sure no nobody finds these bodies at least long enough for me
00:39:58
to get out of here and then appear to be doing something else that's the only reason I think the bodies were concealed
00:40:04
where they were is because there was no other choice no one's going to choose that spot it's a terrible it couldn't be
00:40:10
a worst place to choose to dispose of a body when that's where everybody's looking for those boys especially
00:40:17
considering a mile down the road is the Mississippi River and there's a million places you could drop those bodies and
00:40:22
they'd never be seen again so you were saying and I and I hope I got this correct but you're talking about that
00:40:28
there's evidence that Stevie ate something before the crime occurred yeah so in the autopsy there is a a notation
00:40:38
that say the other um so so the boys from their parents reported that none of them had eaten since their meal in
00:40:45
school their lunch you know 11 12:00 in the afternoon or 12:00 well so Christopher and Michael's stomach
00:40:52
contents are empty which is what you would expect it takes you know there's there's a range of times but for you
00:40:58
know active 8-year-old boys with healthy metabolisms the average is like an hour
00:41:03
and a half to 2 hours it takes for food to move you know to become digested and move out of the stomach or Lumin as it's
00:41:11
as it's noted in the autopsy into the intestines so Stevie they when they when they open up his stomach there's there's
00:41:19
quite a bit of what they called partially digested green vegetables in his stomach which means so he you know I
00:41:27
believe that our window of when the boys were killed is between 6:30 and 7:30 p.m. which would mean so on the front
00:41:35
end of that 6:30 if you go back hour and a half 2 hours that means that no later
00:41:40
than no earlier than 4:30 Stevie had to have eaten some vegetables and it could have been as as
00:41:46
late as as 5:30 6:00 even that he ate some vegetables do you think his family members are just misremembering or do
00:41:56
you you think it's more nefarious on on stating he he never ate anything I don't
00:42:01
think it's nefarious on saying he never ate anything but the but the issue is so
00:42:05
he he leaves at 3:30 right with with Michael Moore um is when Michael comes down they get in their bikes and go and
00:42:11
so the the issue is even if Pam Hobbs is or Pam Hicks now is incorrect she says he didn't eat any snacks he didn't eat
00:42:19
anything after school let's say she's wrong and let's say he did he decided to eat some broccoli as a snack after
00:42:25
school that still because it's 3:30 is the time he leaves if he never returns Home Again
00:42:32
by 5:30 that's that food's gone from his stomach so even if she's wrong about that it still wouldn't be partially
00:42:40
digested in his stomach you know what I mean so so at some point he had to return so I believe I'll say this that
00:42:48
I'm very very confident and and stating I I 100% believe that Stevie Branch contrary to what's been stated by his
00:42:57
stepfather at the time Terry Hobbs I believe absolutely that he did at some point after 5:00 return home and eat and
00:43:09
then he left again now I don't I do not know if Terry was there and knows that he did that so so I'm not saying that
00:43:18
Terry's lying in the fact that he said that he never returned home in 8 I don't know that but what I do know or I feel
00:43:25
very confident in saying is that Stevie did in fact return home and eat at some point and then leave again and In
00:43:31
fairness to the victim's families it's my understanding that they weren't properly
00:43:38
interviewed from my understanding actually it may appear even in 1993 a couple of them were not sat down
00:43:46
and you know they didn't participate in a thorough interview oh that's 100% correct and that's that's another part
00:43:52
of why I decided to take the case cuz I feel like if we go back to the the beginning and do this thing right that
00:43:58
maybe the answer has been there all along if we do a proper investigation and that's why we took it on the podcast
00:44:03
and the TV series but as I mentioned you know that that starts with a proper investigation starts with victimology
00:44:08
and then you start with the people closest to the victims and you work your way out in concentric circles that was
00:44:14
never done in this case so Mark Byers was interviewed multiple times gave recorded interviews but that was because
00:44:20
he went to the police he he's the one that in that initiated that Pam have spoken to a couple times uh you know you
00:44:29
have you have you have cursory conversations with with Dana Moore and Melissa buers uh Todd Moore was never
00:44:37
interviewed by police and Terry Hobbs was never interviewed by police at all not not like a little bit at all which
00:44:44
which is which is baffling that they would and it's because they jump to an a conclusion they jumped to an assumption
00:44:51
when they when they saw the boys come out and they saw how mutilated their bodies were which we now know was due to
00:44:56
animal activity but that back then they didn't know and they decided this was that Satanic ritual killing they knew
00:45:02
was coming Daman Eckles is is the kid that that would do something like this and they got such tunnel vision that
00:45:10
they never did the basic basic steps of a proper investigation including not just not interviewing the family but in
00:45:18
the door-to-door canvasing they never even went door Todo in Stevie Branch's neighborhood at all not neighbors no one
00:45:26
around there we know now uh Pat we know now uh Captain had asked earlier about uh uh evidence indicating that that they
00:45:37
are actually running from something you we know now that that Stevie was seen by
00:45:41
a woman named Betty Johnson on 16th Street riding his bike South that afternoon alone that's one of the
00:45:48
reasons we know that he went home it well the only reason we know that wasn't because of the West Memphis Police
00:45:54
Department it was because because of a newspaper reporter that started knocking on doors in that area asking people if
00:46:00
they' seen the boys and she said yeah I saw Stevie by himself on his bike riding
00:46:05
South on 16th Street that afternoon the police had no idea that happened because
00:46:09
they never asked anybody in the area tell me if I'm wrong about this but there's I've seen where there was
00:46:16
sightings of you know one boy two boys three boys on their bikes and possibly even four boys on their bikes
00:46:25
and a lot of people think that fourth boy could have been uh Vicky Hutchinson's son right I which I I don't
00:46:33
believe that by the way but did you see any reports of of four boys together yeah there there there were a few
00:46:40
reports of four boys together as a matter of fact in our timeline that we put together based on all those door
00:46:45
to-door notes I I show that I called him mystery boy but there you know one of the big sightings was when narlene
00:46:51
Hollingsworth sees the boy and sees you know she says she sees three Boys on bikes and so people think oh it's the
00:46:58
West Memphis it's the three boys except for Chris didn't have a bike especially not at that time in the afternoon he
00:47:02
wasn't on a bike so that third boy is actually a fourth boy and she describes him as being heavy set with dark hair
00:47:10
well that doesn't describe either of the any of the three victims were all thin so so that sighting along with a few
00:47:16
others as who you know we deemed mystery boy and you actually hear from you know
00:47:21
we figured out who that was and actually interviewed him on the the TV series who
00:47:25
the mystery boy was um and then there's another you know other sightings where there's four boys going into the woods
00:47:31
right before they're killed so there's another potential uh fourth boy but I don't think that it's I mean well for ex
00:47:39
for starters as I said we we know who that fourth boy was now um but I've never believed it was it was um Aaron
00:47:45
Hutchinson because the the the evidence now it's been a little while you may know more about it than me now cuz it's
00:47:51
been a couple years since I've studied it but it seemed to be pretty clear that Hutcherson went home that day after
00:47:57
school he wasn't and and he didn't live in that neighborhood he lived out in the
00:48:00
trailer park so he wasn't even around that afternoon right and he gives dozens of different stories as to what he says
00:48:08
he witnessed or saw when he supposedly saw the kids being killed right which is it's it's awful what what the police did
00:48:17
to that poor boy you know what they put him through and I mean he he names different suspects in each one of the
00:48:23
stories too the the the suspects don't even um and then he he says certain things
00:48:29
took place on the victims or to the victims that we know just by the the autopsies did not did not occur at all
00:48:38
regarding the timeline that you're piecing together one thing that's always stood out is that Pam Hobbs uh you said
00:48:47
now Pam now Pam Hicks her and Terry hobbs' timeline for that night never really seemed to match up
00:48:58
100% we it's my understanding that Pam Hobs worked that evening and that Terry drove her to her place of employment and
00:49:06
then picked her up at the end of her shift right that evening with your with your movement of Stevie
00:49:14
branch do we have him leaving their house if he fact in did return to the Hobs household do we have him leaving
00:49:24
before goes off to work before Terry has to drive her to work no I I don't think
00:49:29
there's any question that he hadn't returned yet uh before Pam went to work I mean that was is pretty obvious from
00:49:35
you know from Pam statements herself that you know she was upset because Stevie wasn't there that Terry was upset
00:49:41
when he got home because Stevie wasn't home when he was supposed to be uh they left and then she first finds out
00:49:46
something had happened when Terry picks her up from work I don't see any you know I'll say this I believe her 100%
00:49:53
that that's what happened there's no reason for for her to to lie about that and and sadly we all saw Pam's reaction
00:50:01
which you found out what happened to Stevie you know it was you know it was it was on you know the news it was on
00:50:06
the paradise law series um so yeah I I I don't think Stevie I I think that was the issue I think that personally this
00:50:15
and again I'm I'm I'm giving you a theory here but I believe that t that Terry and Pam left to take Pam to work
00:50:23
and Stevie probably ended up coming home home shortly thereafter you know kind of
00:50:27
missed him and and then the question is did Terry ever come home then after he Dro Pam off and and have some
00:50:35
interaction or communication with Stevie or did Stevie leave again before Terry got back now when you watch these
00:50:43
documentaries and when you studied the case which and I'll keep going with our theme of characters which
00:50:53
character were you most inter interested in and and what did you what do you think you learn by talking to them as a
00:51:01
suspect or as a like a personality well not as not as a suspect but just just anybody uh as far as the documentar Go I
00:51:09
mean like if I was you know I rewatched uh Paradise Lost one two and three recently and I'd go if if I could talk
00:51:18
to anybody I'd like to talk to um Damen I'd like to talk to Terry Hobbs I'd like to talk to Mark buers those are
00:51:27
the first three individuals i' I'd want to interview right yeah and I've interviewed all well I hav interviewed
00:51:33
Terry but um I I don't know if I can if I can point one out but I guess I can walk
00:51:39
through a few of those like you mentioned so um Damen uh I really like Damen you know when I went to go meet
00:51:46
him at first and interview him I was I I shockingly I was or stupidly I guess I was surprised to find out that he's
00:51:54
pretty normal guy you know because he's you know his his his character that we've seen on TV and
00:52:00
and kind of his character we see in his social media and stuff like that you know he's into this ceremonial magic
00:52:06
stuff which seems very Mystic and and and very artsy but you know I've said around talking about football with
00:52:12
Damien every anytime I'm in New York I usually try to catch up with him and Lori and we'll go out for pizza and you
00:52:17
know last time we were there we went you know we went we went to a pizza place Damian's favorite place we had pizza we
00:52:22
hung out for a couple hours and then he he took to a place called insomnia cookies cuz he swear they had the best
00:52:28
cookies in the world and they were the best cookies in the world uh and so I guess was what was interesting to find
00:52:35
out with him is that he's he's a daman's a normal guy like he's he he's interested in something that a lot of
00:52:42
people don't necessarily relate with which is you know his uh I don't you call a faith or religion but his that
00:52:48
cere ceremonial magic that he's that he's into but you know regardless whether you
00:52:54
can relate with that or not he's he's a very personable very normal guy doesn't like talking about the case just likes
00:53:00
just chatting about life and I I enjoy Damian's company when I'm when I'm around him um Jason Baldwin kind of
00:53:07
surprised me the other way he seemed like very a very much a vanilla kind of character but then when I when I went
00:53:13
down and and actually met with him and and we went out to lunch and then interviewed in person he's he's full of
00:53:19
fire actually we just I don't know if you listen to it uh either one of you guys did but we just aired two-part uh
00:53:24
uh two episodes of an interview I did with Jason back in 2018 that nobody had heard before and and he's he's got fire
00:53:33
in his eyes that I didn't know was there um he seems he seems extremely interested in finding out who actually
00:53:42
did this very much so of of the three where to me it feels like Damen is more involved with his causes uh I think he's
00:53:51
involved with the um the innocent people being on death row or I don't know the name of it offhand but um he seems to be
00:53:59
very driven toward that where Baldwin seems fully vested uh invested in finding out who did this clearing his
00:54:09
name and he's one of those per people that I mean the interview is great but you know the captain and I have always
00:54:16
kind of thought this if Jason and Damen would have been tried separately and Jason would have been
00:54:23
tried first we find it very difficult that that they would have found him guilty a lot of that based off of his
00:54:29
character and his personality and of course that there just was no evidence but um to hear your interviews with him
00:54:38
really takes his character as you said to the extreme because he does seem very vanilla on the surface but when he
00:54:47
starts talking about the case or talking about things that were going on in West
00:54:51
Memphis at the time that they were charged with the crimes he's one he's fascinating and two he's very dialed
00:54:57
into what he was doing and I found his very detailed Alibi to be incredibly one interesting and
00:55:07
Incredibly believable yeah I agree on all on all accounts I agree and especially the fact that if he wasn't
00:55:13
tried with Damien I think he for sure would have been acquitted you know he was he was he was collateral damage
00:55:19
really well and I think that's one thing that gets lost in the shuffle there is that we we have Jesse Kelly who gives
00:55:25
this this bad confession he's offered a bit of a reduced sentence because they want him to testify against Baldwin and
00:55:34
Eckles at trial one simply just to introduce the confession to that trial he says look I'm not going to testify
00:55:44
against them basically because it's not true and then Baldwin gets the opportunity to testify against Eckles
00:55:51
and he turns it down as well where that shows something to the character of these still very young men these
00:56:00
teenagers at the time you know there's a lot of meta that you see in the documentaries when that part when the
00:56:06
trial's happening and Paradise loss one and Baldwin's reaction to when uh when when
00:56:15
his attorney I think was Paul Ford asks him after Dam had testified on camera he asked Jason so do
00:56:23
you think that he's guilty and if you watch that scene that scene right there is what convinced me that
00:56:30
Jason Baldwin has no clue what actually happened cuz you watched you could see it in his eyes that he was thinking and
00:56:37
then I think his response was you know they sure made him seem like he did and it was like holy [ __ ] he really doesn't
00:56:44
know that kid does not know who killed those boys yeah he does not know and and he's thinking it through because you see
00:56:51
his it's almost his reaction you can read his mind and and it's like he wasn't with Damon that that evening he
00:56:59
wasn't with Eckles that evening so he doesn't he's he's kind of clueless as to he's not asked did you and eckol do this
00:57:07
together he's just asked did Daman Eckles do this and he's going well they sure made him look
00:57:13
guilty you almost see that he is about to say well I don't know and I think he was smart enough to go well they see
00:57:22
they sure made him look guilty because that I don't know statement would have just been a an odd one for for the
00:57:29
argument against uh Damian anyway yeah and it it just to me it was like I could see you know for me I I
00:57:36
would see in his mind him thinking Jesus Christ did he do it like like maybe he did I don't know I wasn't with him you
00:57:42
know maybe he did do it I don't know they made him seem like he did but you know again like for me what you know
00:57:47
what I'm looking at is not necessarily what that means for Daman but what does it mean for Jason and it was like
00:57:53
obviously he didn't have anything to do do with it with it which again is just one more thing that even if that was the
00:57:58
case if it was just that Jason was innocent it just again tears the state's case down their entire Theory down
00:58:04
because it was supposed to be them together and the confession had all of them together well and how did his how did
00:58:11
Baldwin's Alibi fall apart I don't you know because doesn't he claim to he he went with with a
00:58:18
different friend that's that's not really known to most the people that have taken a quick look at the case he
00:58:24
went with the different friend to uh cut his uncle's lawn and then I think I and
00:58:31
correct me if I'm wrong because I'm going off a memory here but I believe that he he and the friend went and did
00:58:37
something afterward and Baldwin is saying hey I remember this date because I sold him a a cassette tape um that day
00:58:47
and that you know as we discussed already these kids are dirt poor he remembers that day because he one he
00:58:53
probably did a CH that may have earned him some money and if he didn't get paid from the uncle he he at the very least
00:59:00
received some money for that cassette tape from his friend yeah you the the the friend that was with him was uh Ken
00:59:07
Watkins uh and I I think the issue is that alibi was and I'm working for memory too on this part of it you know
00:59:14
cuz when I when I did the case you we I looked at okay if I take this investigation from the beginning and do
00:59:19
it properly where does it take us well the problem with that is it never takes you anywhere near the direction of the
00:59:25
West Memphis 3 so we had to kind of force that in to go like okay well let's see how they got here and why so I I've
00:59:31
never really focused a whole lot on their trial since then but if if memory serves it had to do with the fact that
00:59:38
when they questioned Ken Watkins because you know because Jason says tells his lawyers
00:59:43
that yeah I I was with Ken Watkins after the lawn mowing Damen left with Domin and then Ken and I went to Walmart and
00:59:50
we played video games and then he said yeah you should there was an Asian kid there too you should ask him who whose
00:59:56
name ended up being Don Nam uh was the Asian kid that was there and he's like these guys can verify my alibi but then
01:00:02
you know months and months and months later when when Watkins and N get interviewed uh before trial they they
01:00:12
they don't confirm as Alibi they either don't remember it or they don't give the
01:00:15
right information I don't remember the details exactly about it but basically they didn't they didn't corroborate what
01:00:21
what Jason had said so I don't think they ever ended up testifying well just to play a little bit of a devil's
01:00:26
advocate here after I watched Paradise Lost one I started thinking well is is it as simple
01:00:37
as they had Damian on a list and that's it and they just went with this and this kid had long black
01:00:46
hair listen to heavy metal and he's kind of a freak Show and we believe that this
01:00:52
was done by a freak Show or was there is there a little bit more to it like you said if you if you
01:00:59
investigate it properly then you're going through the proper channels but you're still going
01:01:05
to have a juvenile officer come forward and say look out of all the people in the town that I think possibly could
01:01:12
have done this here here's a kid's name on the list that you might want to look into you but the the problem with that
01:01:19
is that like that's [ __ ] crazy I mean you know what I mean imagine your town There's a murder and the entire
01:01:27
investigation is based on some dude's hunch like oh I know a guy that would do this you know it's crazy no but I I I
01:01:35
still think that that's reason to look into an individual and then when you hear statements that this individual
01:01:43
also which maybe he said it maybe he didn't you know at a at a a softball game saying that he that he killed these
01:01:50
two boys and that he was going to kill more or two two more when uh before he was done yeah I I I think it's it's
01:01:59
reason to believe that you should look into this individual yeah I I'll give you that I think that you know if
01:02:05
someone's got this hunch or or at least when that information comes forward like
01:02:09
the softball information sure you look at him but then there's a there's a there's a big chicken and egg problem
01:02:14
with Damien too in the fact like say say say that statement at the softball whether it happened or not yeah I I tend
01:02:21
to think that maybe some version of it did happen uh but but it's because I think it's be you know he was he was
01:02:28
targeted he was interviewed within hours of the boys being found he was harassed
01:02:33
the police were asking all of his friends all of his family they were calling him in repeatedly to the point
01:02:38
where this rebellious teenager is like screw these guys you know and and and so I my opinion I think Dam you know Damen
01:02:45
says he doesn't really remember that happening and he says he certainly wouldn't have confessed something he
01:02:48
didn't do but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities if he was at a game or whatever there and you know
01:02:55
somebody's like dude I heard that you did it and he's like oh yeah I did it I killed them and I'm going to kill some
01:02:59
more similar to his Boogeyman comment um but certainly once that's you hear that
01:03:06
that you heard this guy confess to it yeah you interview him but would he ever would any of that have happened if they
01:03:13
weren't offering rewards to a bunch of poor people and harassing Damian and spreading the word around town that it
01:03:19
was Daman who did it then would any of these statements have ever come out personally don't think they ever would
01:03:25
have I think if they took this case and they and they and they they they waited until they had the proper medical
01:03:32
evaluation and said okay these kids were were hit over the head drowned and and buried there okay so
01:03:39
that's that every indication there is that this is someone with a known personal relationship to the boys the
01:03:42
FBI was offering to help with profiling so let's go interview and they should have already done so let's interview
01:03:49
every single parent every brother every neighbor and let's start let's start piecing things together and and I think
01:03:54
that if you I'm dancing here but if I think that if you did that if you start at the
01:04:03
center and worked your way out very quickly the person or people whose aliis don't check out that aren't where they
01:04:13
said they were that have unaccounted for time and behavior would would have become very apparent very quickly we're
01:04:20
in this mess we're in now 27 years later because that was never done and if you do that I think that you never end up
01:04:28
even even if some juvenile probation officer is like well I think that Damen Knuckles was a Satanist well if you
01:04:33
waited for the proper evidence you know that there was nothing about this crime scene that indicated it was a Satanic
01:04:39
ritual whatsoever well and there was what's weird about that that statement of oh I heard Damen eckl say this at a
01:04:46
softball game or or whatever I think it was in Mara leverett's book The Devil's not where
01:04:53
there's some some evidence to suggest that even at times maybe investigators were going
01:04:59
around town with a photograph of Damian Eckles and they're asking individuals about the case if they know anything
01:05:06
about the the murders and they're also showing this Photograph that that's almost implying that this man this boy
01:05:13
is is in somehow connected to the murders themselves and you can almost see a situation where because he knows
01:05:23
he's being looked at and he's being harassed during this whole time that that he's overheard discussing that with
01:05:30
somebody and and they miscon through it completely and you point out something that's very very big here is the reward
01:05:38
the all these people are poor and now we got this money sitting on a on on a table up for grabs if you have any
01:05:45
information tell us and let's put these put these devil worshippers Behind Bars and and here's your your your pot of
01:05:53
gold that that money was never officially paid out to anyone that we know of right yeah no one knows where
01:06:01
it went they they've been able to keep that pretty pretty tight lipped uh well yeah I might have went to Vicky
01:06:08
Hutchinson who knows um question for you you said something that I find very interesting a lot of
01:06:14
people that think that the West Memphis 3 are guilty of this crime a lot of people will cite that
01:06:24
well it this is a crime that couldn't have been done by one individual and you you stated earlier that you believe it
01:06:30
was done by a single individual what makes you believe that there there's a there's a lot of things that have to do
01:06:37
with the the profiling of the crime scene you know we've worked with with Jim Clemente doing crime scene
01:06:42
reconstruction and and studying the behavior exhibited here um in my own analysis was the same people think that
01:06:50
one you know how would one person kill three boys but that that's part of why the profile indicates that this is
01:06:56
someone not only with a known personal relationship but also an authority figure to these 8-year-old boys which is
01:07:03
pretty much any adult right uh it's very easy to see say one boy gets punished and which results in him being
01:07:12
unconscious and the other boy freaking out and for that that single figure to to yell you know get your butts back
01:07:20
here or come back or I'm going to do this or whatever and and you could literally you know as a as a gr I've
01:07:28
said this before on the podcast you know as as a grown man myself I could easily
01:07:34
grab three eight-year-old boys by the you know by the Naps of their neck by the collars of their shirt you know one
01:07:39
in one hand and two in the other and grab them and hold them underwater all three at the same time you know it's not
01:07:44
you know I've wrestled around with my with my boy and his and his friends you know it's it it's so it's definitely not
01:07:49
necessary for there to be three the forensics and the crime scene seemed to indicate that there was one you know
01:07:56
that that it's the same kind of patterns happening on all of them people like to
01:07:59
site well this knot was tied differently than this knot but they were all a series of half hitch knots basically you
01:08:06
know some of them are double triple whatever but it's basically the same type of knot the boys are all tied up in
01:08:10
the same way you just don't see that that happen with three different people right so so the boys were tied up in a
01:08:18
very unique way with ankles to to wrists so what you're stating is with these the
01:08:24
knots the the knots were the same type of KN knots It's just sometimes there were multiple knots instead of just yeah
01:08:32
so a half hit a half hitch knot is a basic like the first knot you tie in your shoes you know over under and pull
01:08:39
it tight yeah and you know a double knot and a triple knot and a quadruple knot they're all they're all different
01:08:43
variations of that knot but what what's more important is to look at the very unique way of how
01:08:50
the boys were tied right ankle to right wrist left ankle to right wrist that that was done you know no one would
01:08:58
direct someone to tie them in that particular way because there's no utility in it right it doesn't stop
01:09:04
someone from running it doesn't it doesn't keep them from being able to untie themselves it's not hog tying like
01:09:10
like some would say it's it's pretty clearly this was done postmortem or at least post you know when someone's
01:09:16
unconscious I think Michael Moore did show a little bit of bruising from one of the ligatures which could mean he
01:09:21
still had some amount of heartbeat left when that was put on but the others show
01:09:25
none so you know if there's multiple people and you're directing them you know do you say hey when you tie them up
01:09:31
make sure you tie right wrist to right ankle left wrist to right ankle you wouldn't do that you know
01:09:37
you're just going to you're trying to tie them up in my opinion the reason they were tied that way was to create a
01:09:41
smaller package to keep them under the water uh so that they didn't they didn't reveal themselves I think it was
01:09:47
probably a trial in air I think they were probably put down it didn't work and then they took the clothes off and
01:09:51
tied them up that way um but that's kind of really getting into the weeds but the
01:09:55
the point is in my opinion looking at that that crime scene the same person tied all three of those boys up the same
01:10:02
person uh put all three boys into the water in the clothes everything is too uniform for there to have been multiple
01:10:09
people there and also I mean plain and simple two people can't keep a secret like this for that long it's impossible
01:10:17
the only way a secret like this gets kept is if only one person knows what happened
01:10:25
[Music] [Music] all right thank you guys so much for joining us in the garage we know it's
01:10:40
difficult times weird times strange times and we appreciate you and we're going to keep going with the flying
01:10:48
garage ship and if you want to listen to our coverage of the West Memphis 3 download the free Stitcher app we have
01:10:55
all of our shows on there and you can go all the way back to July of 2016 listen to episodes 40 41 and 42
01:11:05
those are the West Memphis 3 episodes also we've talked about West Memphis 3 I don't know how many times on our other
01:11:13
show off the Record available on Stitcher premium go to our website and you can click on off the Record and get
01:11:20
a free month of listening until tomorrow be good be kind and don't [Music] Litter the Angie list you know and trust
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