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and delicious recipes [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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the captain thank you thank you thank you it's good to be seen and it's good to see you the double champ does
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all right boys and girls girls that's enough of the business everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer that's
00:04:34
enough of the business and let's talk some true [Music] crime two weeks ago Captain was it two
00:04:58
weeks already yeah it was two weeks ago we did our Halloween show and we got to talk about our favorite uh true crime
00:05:05
documentaries there's so many good ones out there yeah if you haven't checked that out go listen to that episode and
00:05:10
also let us know what your favorite documentaries are yeah and one of the perks of doing these shows and hosting
00:05:16
these shows is that I got the opportunity a couple weeks ago to speak with Joshua Zan he is the Creator and
00:05:22
one of the host of the new docu series that's coming out well has just come out called The Killing season which is on
00:05:29
A&E uh highly recommend checking that out I watched the first two episodes over the last weekend and those are
00:05:36
available on A&E's website uh but we also spoke to him a little bit about uh some of the documentaries that were on
00:05:43
our top 10 list uh he did a documentary called cropsy a while back and he also did the uh killer Legends documentary so
00:05:53
we wanted to take this time to talk about the upcoming show ourselves but also give uh you would opportunity to
00:06:00
listen in on Joshua and I's conversation yeah and I checked out the first two parts the first two part of the eight
00:06:07
series The Killing season you got to check that out it's very interesting he does a really good job of making you uh
00:06:14
new little tidbits and then all and then by the end of the episode you're like oh
00:06:18
God I what happens next you know and it was also interesting to see the people that we talked about when we covered the
00:06:24
Long Island spal killer case so um check out this conversation between Nick and Joshua Zeman I think you'll enjoy
00:06:37
[Music] it we will most certainly get into The Killing season and the Long Island
00:06:49
serial killer case but before we do so I wanted to talk to you about your documentary called cropsy what was your
00:06:56
inspiration and how did this come about yeah you know growing up in Staten Island we had always heard about um this
00:07:03
guy cropsy who was uh theoretically an estate mental patient who lived in the tunnels or the basements of the old
00:07:13
willbrook mental institution which was this kind of abandoned somewhat abandoned mental institution in the
00:07:20
center of Staten Island like in the woods and we all knew it was pretty Infamous uh H cuz well especially when
00:07:29
you're a kid all abandoned mental institution are Infamous um but you know from the haraldo footage and you know we
00:07:39
didn't really think anything of it I mean we knew it was a little bit creepy and I think it was used to um keep kids
00:07:46
away from you know having keg parties in the woods H and plus the buildings were
00:07:51
kind of decrepit you know like you can walk upstairs that went nowhere and out into the you know into like some some
00:07:56
stairs that had fallen away but then um a little girl with Down syndrome and Jennifer schweer disappeared from
00:08:05
our neighborhood and they found her body buried on the grounds of that mental institution
00:08:13
so suddenly um that urban legend became real uh the police um actually went in and released to the public that they
00:08:25
had well I should say that the manicu of taking her wasn't an escap meal patient
00:08:31
as the urban legend said but in fact he was a former worker who had been living on a campsite on the grounds and the
00:08:40
police revealed to the public that this guy had been suspected of taking five other kids throughout 30 years but they
00:08:48
could never convict him of the crime because they could never find the body which in police parlance is called
00:08:54
Corpus DTI no body no crime so yeah I mean for the kids living in Staten Island this was an urban legend come
00:09:04
true however and what the film tries to do is to ask the question you know what came first the chicken or the egg was it
00:09:12
you know as we know there are always urban legends about mental institutions that's
00:09:19
been happening for years um so it doesn't matter where you are you're going to have an urban legend
00:09:25
about mental institutions I mean you see them in those tropes play out in Hollywood movies all the time you know
00:09:31
um you know Halloween Jason you know um Mike Myers comes from a mental institution that whole thing um but you
00:09:40
know or was this a case of the police and concerned parents knowing that a pedophile was out there and they
00:09:49
couldn't tell their kids hey don't go in the woods a pedophiles in there it just
00:09:52
you know that's just not a compelling narrative for a kid uh but if you add an escap mental patient with an axe and use
00:09:59
that as your warning that works so you know of this urban legend and as you get older I mean it turns out that this is a
00:10:08
real life person that that there is a real life monster behind this Legend now did you know about Andre Rand before uh
00:10:16
you started the documentary or when you were a child well that's an interesting question you know I would like to say
00:10:24
that the biggest criticism and you know with some of the I guess more of the horror guys we're very upset that that
00:10:30
we we didn't spend more time talking about the urban legend so whenever I do interviews and stuff I have to like talk
00:10:37
a little bit more about the urban legend now the cropsy urban legend actually comes uh from Sleepaway camps in Upstate
00:10:46
New York in the 1950s Jewish Sleepaway camps but it's a little older than that um cropsy is a kind of American
00:10:54
revolutionary around that time it's it's a common name uh and and the urban legend always starts out with a judge or
00:11:02
a doctor somebody of like some high intelligence high power and he is I think typically he's like vacationing or
00:11:11
he's having his honeymoon with his beautiful young wife and some kids Boy Scouts what have you are playing with
00:11:18
matches and they burn down his cabin the wife sometimes is a child he they die uh
00:11:25
this judge cropsy or doct cropsy is always like horribly disfigured and he grabs an Axe and he's maddened with
00:11:34
revenge and he goes after the count he goes after the the campers you know and so it was used in Upstate New you know
00:11:42
that's where it came from from upstate New York and there's a couple like cropsy is a a fairly well-used name in
00:11:49
in h New York you see cropsy Avenue and somehow that urban legend kind of traveled down down to New York
00:11:59
City and it got mixed with the Escape mental patient urban legend and then it was applied to Andre ran now we you know
00:12:12
it's a good question whether or not I we knew Andre Rand some of the older kids did you know he was you know your the
00:12:20
local bu Radley he was you know the kind of guy who lived in the woods who would
00:12:26
um you would see around but he you know who who had like plac some wood but he wasn't really homeless I mean he was
00:12:32
homeless but like he wasn't you know an alcoholic he wasn't like kind of your you know you're you're mentally ill
00:12:40
homeless um so was homelessness an option was this a choice for him it was a choice yeah it was a choice yeah I
00:12:48
mean this was a guy who felt like an outcast this was a guy who who went to live in the woods um he was a sign
00:12:59
painter before that um you know people have ask me is he crazy yes he's definitely crazy um but he's you know
00:13:07
and I think he's schizophrenia U but I don't think he's like the crazy like you might think and so they knew that they
00:13:15
knew Andre ran you know he was the guy who you know they saw in Mike shoplift sometimes or or he was the guy like
00:13:22
there's all these stories people tell like he would come into the diner and order a tea and a b
00:13:30
you know that's not something that really like you know kind of like crazy homeless people do you know right so you
00:13:37
know it was a weird Persona you know I think he was more scary than he was anything you know because he was
00:13:43
peculiar you know and so then it plays into that whole bu Radley thing you know but the pedophile portion of his crimes
00:13:50
is that because of his mental illness or is that just some kind of proclivity that he has I think it's a proclivity
00:13:57
that he has um because I yeah I think it's a proclivity that he has I think the question is how does that manifest
00:14:03
itself and so here's what we know about Andre ran right his mother was in a mental institution and his father died
00:14:10
early his mother was in a mental institution called Pilgrim State which is in Long Island it's one of the
00:14:15
largest mental institutions at the time in all of the world it has like its own train station he went to go visit his
00:14:22
mother at an early age when she was in the mental institution and he worked at willbrook he was returning to something
00:14:31
that he knew I think he felt bad for these people I mean imagine going in in the 1950s to visit your mother in a
00:14:39
mental institution every weekend what would that do to you you know what I'm saying it's like the start of the start
00:14:44
of a horror film The the state and the conditions of those mental institutions in the 1950s I mean one could only
00:14:52
imagine horrible horrible you you can only imagine so so I think he you know that was like maybe a way for him to
00:14:58
stay in touch um so he you know decides to get a job in a mental institution and
00:15:05
by the way the design of the mental institution is called the Kirby design uh and so he's he's not only in you know
00:15:12
a mental institution but one that looks very similar and I think for someone who's
00:15:18
Outcast working in mental institution makes you feel normal or good or Superior I'm not quite sure right um but
00:15:29
on the proclivity side I think it was also a place where he could freely molest and it
00:15:38
wouldn't be a problem you know it wouldn't raise any red flags exactly because if one of the patients or one of
00:15:43
the children there complain about what he's doing to them I mean is anybody even going to believe them yeah and and
00:15:51
trust me in the 1970s and 80s you had one attendant for 35 to 40 individ uals which today we is unheard of so and I
00:16:03
think there's a lot of a lot of sexual activity you know going on in those mental institutions with PE you know
00:16:11
people who just didn't even understand what you know that is per it had feelings so I you know it's really hard
00:16:17
to say the but there's a couple more interesting things on top of it um okay he had a
00:16:25
girlfriend and people have since contacted me on Facebook book after the documentary you know Andre ran was sent
00:16:31
to a Menton for uh evaluation um after he had his um his breakdowns and a lot of people in stat out at the time were
00:16:40
like oh these these breakdowns are [ __ ] it's not real he's he's using it to uh get out of the crime I I don't
00:16:48
think so especially if you you see that you know very um iconic photo of him drooling on the per walk you know it's I
00:16:57
I I I you know I don't buy the people who are that good of an actor or that even that smart um and so I was always
00:17:04
trying to Rick really understand what was going on finally somebody emailed me and they gave this whole description and
00:17:12
which basically the end of the description was this is the type of schizophrenia that you actually see on
00:17:18
TV the kind of full mental breakdown schizophrenia where where pressures societal pressures
00:17:27
or like daily pressures becomes so much that somebody basically has to act out and when and and
00:17:34
typically that's an act of control so let's say societal pressures are your your you stressors right you use the
00:17:40
term in serial killer Stu stressors happen stressors happen for a lot of people they don't just happen for serial
00:17:45
killers they happen for pedophiles too so your girlfriend breaks up with you you you know what whatever and you
00:17:53
know it's about power I think and and opportunity and so I think you know when these stressers
00:18:01
would happen on his life he he would go out and molest somebody and then I think
00:18:07
it was so debilitating for him that he ended up abducting and killing the child and rather than just like kind of
00:18:16
letting it go and then you know because when he was faced with the crimes that he did he went into this catatonic State
00:18:23
he had he had done it a couple different times so I really believe that that that is what's going on because you
00:18:30
know as you see in the film we have many conversations with him you know and the
00:18:35
conversation like he's a smart guy but you can also tell like there's some stuff going on as well you know now was
00:18:43
he convicted of her death as well kidnapping kidnapping in the first degree however which carries the same
00:18:50
sentence was he still working at the mental hospital when he abducted this girl well so he had been doing this for
00:18:59
a number of years and in the backstory of our film in 1987 he had no longer been working at willbrook yet he was
00:19:07
still living on the grounds in a campsite he was walking home to his campsite and he he found this mentally
00:19:14
disabled girl who lived in our neighborhood and strucked up a conversation with her and I think that
00:19:20
that's both a crime of opportunity and and you know a familiar crime to him and also again somebody who he connects with
00:19:28
and and so he had not been working in the mental institution at that time however the trial that you see in the
00:19:34
case is for a girl who had been taken six years previous her named Holly Hughes and at the time he was working in
00:19:41
the mental institution but Holly Hughes I think was another crime of opportunity
00:19:46
or it's like opportunity plus Holly was outside at 9:00 at night um her mother uh had some
00:19:57
dependency issues and so I think there was some problems there and you know he always underground
00:20:04
always called himself like a soldier for Christ in some of his letters and I believe he thought he was doing God's
00:20:12
work I believe he felt like the atrocities that he witnessed at willbrook basically kind of gave him
00:20:24
this view of life that he he had to save these children maybe from all the horrors that he
00:20:30
witnessed working in willbrook maybe what happened to his mother and so it was better off to kind of like kill them
00:20:37
vers letting them be unwanted children that was his point of of where the pedopilia comes in to that narrative I'm
00:20:47
not quite sure you spent about 10 years working on cropsy and then afterwards you're going to take a little bit of
00:20:53
downtime before you start your new documentary how long does Josh need until till he starts the new one good
00:21:00
question you know um one thing that really interested me because I was a kid growing up and I
00:21:09
heard the urban legend of cropsy uh and after that was and I think this was new for a lot of people just
00:21:18
the idea of urban legends and looking at them from a true crime standpoint and looking at them from how they evolve you
00:21:25
know and so people like oh you should make another serial killer movie and the last thing I wanted to do is to make
00:21:32
another serial killer movie I I thought that people didn't really understand the
00:21:37
the realities I mean I just spent four years if not more talking to parents whose children have disappeared and
00:21:43
never been found and the you know I even had like family members call me up and say like I'll let you do something on my
00:21:51
child but promise me you will never make a serial killer movie because in in our
00:21:57
culture we celebrate that rather than understand the true life reality of that and I was like and so that really
00:22:05
affected me and so after that I I was I found myself focusing more on the urban legends because of the power of urban
00:22:16
legends and so uh we did uh killer Legends as a uh kind of um a pilot for a channel uh where we took looked at these
00:22:26
like urban legends and we looked you know these True Crimes that may have started these urban legends and that's
00:22:32
what's so kind of cool about urban legends is that they you know and this is all kind of new territory like people
00:22:38
hadn't really been talking about urban legends like that you know they knew what urban legends were but they really
00:22:43
weren't looking at them from like a folklorist and a sociology standpoint so I found that really interesting and
00:22:49
that's what's cool about urban legends they need some sort of Truth to breed from they need some sort of Truth to
00:22:57
become sticky and to really like get into your Consciousness and you know they need some kind of True Crime that's
00:23:03
typically like unsolved so that there's some air of mystery about it and then they can add on top of that whatever
00:23:12
cautionary tale they want to and that's the nucleus of all these uh killer Legends or urban legends it's always a a
00:23:19
warning or a cautionary tale do everything that you're supposed to do or bad things will happen to you you you do
00:23:25
something that's wrong and it might Circle back around to you well it and it's really interesting because urban
00:23:34
legends in that warning is typically a much more complicated coded message about social
00:23:42
anxiety um and I had no idea to be honest like looking at it I'm like wow these urban legend stories are really
00:23:48
complex and they're pretty mischievous and they're pretty like subjugating like for example we looked at um the hook
00:23:57
Urban leg Legend right one of the oldest most famous urban legends which is don't
00:24:02
make out in your car or you know a guy with a hook is gonna come get you and of course you know there's a lot of other
00:24:11
kind of interesting little things built in there uh usually the you know like the couples getting hot and heavy in the
00:24:17
car uh the girl um you know that just as they're about to have sex this thing comes over the radio that there's an
00:24:25
escaped mental patient of course uh with a hook for a hand and uh and and he's gonna come get you and the the woman is
00:24:33
really upset and she's scared and she wants to go home the guy of course just wants to continue having sex she says no
00:24:42
he gets pissed jam and this like kind of important he jams on the gas in reverse
00:24:48
and they pull out of the the lookout and they get back home and she opens up the
00:24:52
door and and he goes out to open up her door and on her door is the hook that's been pulled out of
00:25:00
the arm you know what I'm saying so it's it's it's more than just like she doesn't want to have sex like the guy
00:25:05
doesn't get it and then he like gets pissed you know and so in this in this whole thing is it's all
00:25:14
about you know teaching kids teaching kids scaring kids into not having premarital sex or else you're going to
00:25:23
get penetrated by a hook you know and I'm like oh man I was like horrible and and look there's even another one right
00:25:32
the other one about um uh the babysitter you know and which is very famous right
00:25:38
call comes from inside the house it's about babysitters babysitting for the first time and then all of a sudden you
00:25:42
know there's a guy upstairs calls or did you check the children did you check the
00:25:45
children now yeah why is this urban legend because it's an urban legend it's a cautionary tale against women again uh
00:25:56
becoming too successful in the um business world you know like you're not supposed to be babysitting you're not
00:26:04
supposed to be out you need to be and and because in a lot of these times the the girl is like talking to her
00:26:10
boyfriend on the phone and and the guy clicks through you shouldn't be talking to your boyfriend you should be minding
00:26:15
the children you know and I was like damn there's all these like really not just like there's really these horrible
00:26:24
coded messages about subjugating women in these urban legends crazy [Applause] [Music]
00:26:38
yeah and we'll get right back to their conversation right after this quick this show is sponsored by better help do you
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GameChanger beer break all right back from that beer break thanks to our sponsors and let's get back to the
00:28:42
conversation between Nick and uh Josh I'm not on the phone call um you know because I wasn't invited that's very
00:28:50
nice of both of them but let's kick back crack open another cold one and listen to these guys you have about some true
00:29:01
[Applause] [Music] crime Josh we've been seeing in the news all these scary clown incidences where
00:29:12
you have you have people at the park or you know clowns in the woods that are terrifying little kids and this is
00:29:19
everyday news but this relates very much to your documentary what really got me into it was again this these of
00:29:27
Storytelling right and so basically what we found out was in the 1980s there was
00:29:32
these Phantom clown scares that happened all over the United States and internationally um kids were seeing uh
00:29:41
clowns in white Vans roaming their neighborhoods and playgrounds now white van should tell you already that it it's
00:29:49
based upon pedophile fears at the time uh and you know this was a way for kids to kind of like talk about their
00:29:56
pedophilers now it it happened in and we go to Boston where sorry we go to Chicago like inner city Chicago where it
00:30:04
happened and um it was amazing these kids would talk about how it like this was before Stephen King's it before and
00:30:13
before cter guys and pre- internet so what you would have what you had was you had black kids in hardcore urban areas
00:30:24
talking about these clown scares you had I kids in the same you know City doing the same thing and then it would jump it
00:30:32
would go to like Pittsburgh it would go to uh Pittsburgh Boston San Diego Scotland and and again this all happened
00:30:42
pre- internet so this was a hysteria and I was just interested in the idea uh of
00:30:48
clowns becoming creepy like when did that happen you know and I was also interested in the idea of Storytelling
00:30:54
pre inter urban legends pre- internet versus post and I we end the segment you know with
00:31:02
this whole thing about clowns and chaos and that clowns had finally reached this
00:31:07
Pinnacle of evil and that was create there's this term that Urban Legion folklor have called Ascension that's
00:31:15
when you make Something Real by enacting on it and that's what uh that guy James
00:31:21
Holmes did when he dressed up like you know with the orange hair like the Joker and killed all the people in Aurora
00:31:29
Colorado he was basically taking the urban legend and enacting on it making it real by creating chaos you know and
00:31:37
and this the idea of the clown being the agent of chaos the idea of the clown being the other or the idea of the clown
00:31:45
being the other half of us the one that we keep that we don't like to talk about
00:31:50
the one that we don't show the world unless we're wear we're wearing a mask and then we can engage in all the sexual
00:31:56
envir Behavior we it um and right after we did that Al also all these people were like by the way I don't remember to
00:32:05
stay in the clown thing makes no sense and right after we did that some filmmakers in Staten Island um people
00:32:11
thought we did it for a viral campaign we didn't uh people there was some filmmakers in Staten Island had done it
00:32:16
and then it popped over to like a couple other places in England and then it died
00:32:21
down now it happened again this year but this year it went viral quickly people in it was happening everywhere and it's
00:32:31
not done yet of course obviously and then it jumped and this is important and understanding what what the truth is it
00:32:37
jumped to England pretty quickly and then most recently it jumped to Germany and I just did a interview uh huff post
00:32:44
Germany where literally I'm sitting there talking to this guy about about the clown scares and suddenly he gets a
00:32:52
an email saying that some clown had some real clown like like they firebomb like
00:32:58
nine cars and stab somebody and so it the violence has happened yeah we're already seeing violence with these
00:33:05
incidences but never before and I can't figure out why that is different I don't
00:33:10
have an answer for that why is this different now so I don't quite know either although I have an idea my idea
00:33:18
so one thing that has to happen first and this is kind of what we hit two years ago was that clowns had to become
00:33:25
the ultimate Evil C character and they have you know there's no denying that clowns uh are the ultimate Evil
00:33:32
character that you know and and that culminated with the joker once that became entrenched in our Collective
00:33:40
Consciousness something else happened and and basically you know I I don't politics
00:33:49
whatever but when you have fear so urban legends are um mirrors of our current social anxiety uh society's anxiety it's
00:34:00
always about what's happening right then and there and so I think that this is about politics I think this is about an
00:34:06
election that people are saying is one of the worst they've ever seen I think this is about a lot of fear of the other
00:34:14
um whether that's you know mexic Mexicans uh whether that's uh people from all over uh fear of like thugs fear
00:34:22
of like War fear of drugs fear of guns you know that whole nine yards and then we're also seeing a lot of kind of
00:34:30
taking down of American institutions you know whether it's taxes or whether it's
00:34:36
Russians or all these things so so I think it's about this fear of the other and that is also why um it had jumped to
00:34:44
England so quickly because they're having the same thing with their brexit issues um so that is one of the things
00:34:53
that we're seeing uh a lot of right now um and then uh the other part there's another part of it so before I can tell
00:35:03
you that I don't really think anybody was dressing up like clowns in 1985 nobody's really dressing up as
00:35:09
clowns but now people are actually dressing up as clowns and doing it you know what I'm saying so there really are
00:35:15
people standing on the corner and that's the difference too so that so why are people kind of like doing it and I think
00:35:24
you know right now there are also a lot of people who want to kind of act out uh and and they don't have an an
00:35:33
outlet for that like basically to some people this is the equivalent of pulling the fire alarm at school the the problem
00:35:40
with pulling the fire alarm is that nobody knows it was you you know like you want to take credit for it and so
00:35:46
when you could go dress up as a clown and do it you you get a little bit more recognition you get there's a picture of
00:35:52
you and then you really get to see like the school administration and and what's
00:35:57
even better the police freak out I mean it's like The Simpsons you know you know
00:36:04
when and I can't help but laugh either you know when you go and you see a police officer standing at the podium
00:36:09
saying uh ladies and gentlemen uh we do not believe that there are any clowns here in town you know like you can't
00:36:15
help but Snicker that these guys really had to go out there and you know look at
00:36:21
this and so I think we're also having a very big conversation in our culture right now about the about Community
00:36:26
Police Ing and law enforcement you know and so like I said it's it's like pulling a
00:36:33
fire alarm for the police you know what better slightly harmless thing you can do are we to the point now where if
00:36:40
you're wearing a clown outfit and you're in a park that you can get ticketed or if the captain goes out and stands on a
00:36:46
corner he's dressed as a clown that he's going to be handcuffed and thrown in the
00:36:50
back of a police car you know clowns have become you know there such a polariz in
00:36:57
figure so we in killer Legends right you see like this clown dressed up right and
00:37:01
he drives around a white van I mean we were just having fun back then but it was really interesting because we went
00:37:06
to this um Urban neighborhood and these fullon gangbangers when they saw this guy
00:37:14
dressed up as a clown they suddenly were like yo man that's not funny oh they got weird yeah you know
00:37:22
it's like like these gang bangers suddenly like dropped all pretense were like yo that's not cool that's not funny
00:37:28
yo yo yo and so it's very you know it's very interesting how you know what that does to people
00:37:36
why is that why why seeing a clown suddenly freaks you out it's because of the stories that they grew up
00:37:45
hearing and it it's nobody's eyes ever look right with that makeup it the The Haunting face and the eyes just always
00:37:53
look evil when you pair it with that mask or the makeup so cool thing is you know I mean those exaggerated faces were
00:38:00
done on purpose back in the days of the circus because they needed to be exaggerated because you sat like 200
00:38:06
feet away you know so you needed to see them big but then we took clowns out of the big top and we brought them into our
00:38:11
homes through TV do trials birthday parties but they never changed the makeup right know and and so suddenly it
00:38:19
was like whoa you know but then the other question start to pop up and this is when you know like I said back in the
00:38:24
1980s it was about out pedop the fear was pedophiles now the fear is the other or the fear is the breakdown and Chaos
00:38:34
that is that is slowly gripping us you know um through through through our political situation but back then it was
00:38:42
pedophile so you know it was all about like who's the guy who's the sweaty guy behind the makeup playing with the
00:38:49
children you know um now it's not sweaty guy it's not the sweaty guy anymore you
00:38:55
know what I'm saying it's it's the guy it's the kid with sharp fangs who's you know doing whatever and I always thought
00:39:01
that this stuff was happening because or started because of movies like Stephen King's It Or Poltergeist that that we
00:39:09
developed this clown fear from from movies and scary stories you know that's what that's it's cultural right guys you
00:39:16
know all that stuff was hitting at the same time and what we talked what we talked
00:39:22
about this it was the fact that it was gayy you know it's not just gayy but gayy and in the you know gasy and the
00:39:28
clown outfit really freaked a lot of people out you know people start to make those connections you know and that's
00:39:33
when he started see jayy's paintings and all that other stuff and it could be I mean I really love to know from Stephen
00:39:39
King um you know where he got the idea from Penny Wise from yeah and I love Stephen King and absolutely horrified
00:39:49
and terrified by Penny wise the clown I would love to figure out how he came up with that idea um let's talk about your
00:39:56
new docu series The Killing season which is on A&E I know it's about the Long Island serial killer or maybe it starts
00:40:04
off that way but what what is this case about and and what is the docu series about what do the listeners need to know
00:40:12
going into this adventure right so basically it's an eight uh an eight episode docy series um that looks at the
00:40:22
uh that looks at the unsolved uh that looks at the unsolved U murder of 10 sex workers in Long Island New York
00:40:33
um so basically after cropsy everybody wanted me to do a serial killer story I didn't want to uh I did killer Legends
00:40:40
and then this case popped up and you know I remember it first it was four sex workers that they found in
00:40:49
2010 um and then a couple months later they found the remains of six more sex workers along the same abandoned highway
00:40:58
um I you know we very much live in a CSI Law and Order world where we think that
00:41:03
this thing is going to get solved very quickly there's got to be some physical evidence that's going to solve this case
00:41:08
and then year one no arrests and then year two no arrests and then I started to hear uh stories about uh political
00:41:17
backstabbing and fumbling of the case and um you know arguments about whether it was one serial killer or two and one
00:41:25
of the reasons I cropsy was you know I wanted there was a lot of fiction profound fiction movies coming
00:41:33
out at the time and I wanted to make a movie that showed people that sometimes horror is quite real and if you want to
00:41:42
see something really scary let me show you this footage from an old mental institution because that's really scary
00:41:48
and when this story came up it was a way for me to do that again it was a way for
00:41:54
me to show the world like look there's all these TV shows about serial murder Hannibal the fall the following you know
00:42:01
and and I like them just as much as anybody else but sometimes they were missing the point about how truly
00:42:10
horrifying these cases can be and I went in and started looking at this case um not to really to solve it sure I would
00:42:18
love to solve it who wouldn't want to solve it but it was really more about how serial cases serial murder cases
00:42:25
really play out and it was really more about the horror of what was going on however when I started to do a lot of
00:42:34
digging into the case and started you know talk to some of the sex workers I realized that there was a lot more to
00:42:40
this case and originally it was going to be another feature like cropsy and then
00:42:45
we realized there was so much there we started hearing whisperings of other cases that had been unsolved also
00:42:51
involving sex workers that people thought were connected in Atlantic City in Daytona and then you know we could
00:42:59
step out and look at this horrific tragedy this American Nightmare that's happening all over the country and the
00:43:07
police are powerless to stop it like you would not believe what goes on so this is very much like cropsy an active
00:43:15
investigation very creepy um a lot of the same feel but as cropsy but on a much bigger
00:43:23
scope now I'm a true crime dork watch everything I can possibly find and I read everything I can get my hands on
00:43:30
and if I had to Josh if I had to bet the farm on it you know this is something I've been telling people for years that
00:43:36
if in every major city in the United States there is a serial killer that's out there and it's because they have
00:43:44
access to sex workers and if you have a large enough City with enough people in it there's a guy there that's killing
00:43:51
people and whether they are known to the police at the time of the investig a a lot of times that's not the cas most of
00:43:59
the time they end up finding out afterwards that there is a serial killer on the loose they they catch a guy and
00:44:05
realize that he has killed three or four people I didn't know that I had no idea
00:44:10
like I I I guess you know I don't know why and I it should have been fairly obvious right because of because of Jack
00:44:17
the Ripper like you know like but for some reason I guess we hear about all these other cases and I you know I don't
00:44:25
know but so that's exactly what we found but it's kind of even weirder because like since the
00:44:30
1970s since our lives have become more and more trackable since we don't have hitchhikers uh you know or stranded
00:44:39
motorists as as much in all those cases in an effort not to get caught serial murders are going after sex work
00:44:48
sex workers in record numbers and and the idea is that also sex work has changed it's now a lot of now all the
00:44:59
everything's taking place over the Internet it's no more guys walking the street you know it's no more like girls
00:45:04
walking the streets and guys pulling up in the car these Arrangements these dates are happening over the internet
00:45:09
you would think that would make it safer but in actuality it makes it that much more
00:45:15
Anonymous nobody's tracking IP addresses or any of that crazy stuff you see on TV
00:45:22
in fact you watch TV you have this idea that police are putting all this information in the supercomputers
00:45:30
247 right that is not happening that is not happening at all in fact there are 17 to 20,000 different law enforcement
00:45:38
agencies and none of them are mandated by law to share their murder data with the vi with the FBI's vicap system so
00:45:47
it's not even like well you know you know it's not even like saying like cops don't care they can't even track it they
00:45:55
have no idea what's going on and that's just not that's not just for murder missing persons there's two different
00:46:01
databases they don't talk to each other but so in Canada you have this vicap system the same system that was set up
00:46:10
by the FBI but all their murders are to be sent in to one centralized database and as a result they're able to make
00:46:18
those connections a lot better than we are and that to me is frightening I I I again I thought we were so much better
00:46:26
than this I thought we would put in a name and a face and you know something would pop up but I can't believe it's
00:46:33
not ferally mandated I cannot with the amount of stuff that we have on TV from from everything from you know all these
00:46:42
different shows and the fact that is not at all like that is was just the most shocking thing to me well and the other
00:46:49
part of it is the public perception I believe that we have been led to believe that if there is a serial killer on the
00:46:56
loose that we would be aware of it because the newspapers and the and TV would come out and tell us hey there's
00:47:03
these crimes going on and the police have connected them they've linked them together so be on the lookout because
00:47:08
there's a really bad guy on the loose but in all actuality what we find out is that 50% maybe more than 50% of the time
00:47:16
we're finding out that there was a serial killer on the loose after the fact once he's caught and we we don't
00:47:23
know what's going on until he's apprehended and we're led to believe this because we think that serial crime
00:47:28
is such a unique crime that you know there's going to be books about it and we're going to see this guy's face on TV
00:47:34
but that's just not the case we're just not aware that this type of thing is happening all the time and in most of
00:47:40
our cities here's the other thing I didn't know uh police aren't required to tell you that there's a serial killer so
00:47:48
we have a guy so remember I was just telling you about about that database well there is an an individual a citizen
00:47:56
who has basically put together the most comprehensive database of Murder in the United States a citizen better than the
00:48:02
FBI the NSA and everybody now this guy his name is Tom harrove he's created What's called the murder accountability
00:48:09
project and and the reason that they don't do this is because they don't want you to
00:48:14
know the fact that solve rates of murders have gone down 30% in the past couple decades you know we want to
00:48:22
believe that the police are doing a great job and this isn't NE necessarily their fault uh but regardless uh murder
00:48:29
rates have gone down so you know for a place like Detroit which was never really good at solving murders in the
00:48:34
first place now they're down to like 30% solve rate so if you want to murder somebody do it in Detroit or Baltimore
00:48:43
or Chicago um but so the point that this citizen has compiled this this um database and from this database he's
00:48:55
created algorithm and he types in you know strangled women in you know you know in a certain like range in a
00:49:03
certain time period and this guy comes up with all these like cases of all these clusters of murdered women that
00:49:11
look suspiciously similar and you know and then he's what he's got to do is he's got to take that data and kind of
00:49:17
go through and like and like then pull up the names and look at them and like really see if they're connected but he's
00:49:22
found certain cases where where like he's called up some Police Department and he's like I think you have a Serial
00:49:27
murder on their hands on your hands and they're like no we don't and then it's revealed that they then subsequently
00:49:35
like a few weeks later reveal to the public that they have a Serial murder but not before somebody called them out
00:49:40
on it and now he's featured on your show but you also worked with the author Ro Robert kker as well right now kolker's
00:49:47
book Lost Girls is to me one of the best true crime books in the past 10 years yeah we recommended Lost Girls on our
00:49:54
show and one thing that was truly great about it you know Robert culer he was an
00:49:59
author well he worked for magazines before and he wrote a lot of articles on the Long Island serial killer case and I
00:50:06
read all of them so I wasn't really that excited to read his book however I did so and I found it was the exact opposite
00:50:13
you know that he there was so much more in the book now one thing that I've always wanted to know because Lost Girls
00:50:21
he doesn't present his own theory on who the Killer is or how this all went down
00:50:27
I would love to ask him what his personal theory is he only he only suggest Nate you know stories from the
00:50:34
neighborhood or from what people in the neighborhood would tell you what was Robert kolker's Theory well listen you
00:50:41
know just backing up just a tad if it wasn't for Bob cker I wouldn't have done the documentary okay because Bob cker
00:50:50
showed us first of all he did a wonderful job of humanizing these women which I think think was the best part of
00:50:56
it my only criticism of Bob Ker's book is that it's too short and so I what I wanted to do was I
00:51:05
wanted to create a series that could literally pick up where Bob's book left off and because like I wanted to know
00:51:14
more and so literally that's what I tried to do I said to myself this is for all the people who loved Lost Girls as
00:51:21
much as I did now let's go even further and a lot of that had to do with with the suspects you know what I'm saying
00:51:28
and so um I you know it's hard for me I think what Bob and I share is the fact that when the police stopped speaking to
00:51:40
the public as they did in this case and you have an active serial killer who's murdering people on a place like Long
00:51:48
Island people are going to speculate and that is just what happened here you had
00:51:53
an explosion of speculation I had not seen since the Joan B Ramsey case and that's because the police are not
00:52:00
providing updates but in the internet age you can't you just can't not do that you
00:52:05
can't allow people to speculate this is not people sitting down at the coffee shop or the diner saying well you know I
00:52:11
I so I felt like this and this this is people online trolling saying things that they would never say in PRI in in
00:52:18
public you know face to face because that's what the internet allows us to do calling each other the killer the whole
00:52:24
nine yards and so a lot of what I think we try to do is to go in and kind of eliminate the speculation take out all
00:52:31
that trolling and and and help people to concentrate on the real issues at hand and one of the real issues at hand is
00:52:37
the fact there are five individuals who have yet to be identified so people are like can this case be solved of course
00:52:43
this case can be solved you've got five people out there who are missing and unidentified over 50% of the victims to
00:52:49
not know who those people are I mean we should be doing everything we can to be finding out who those victims are are
00:52:55
and that's why we started working with the webs Community because the police seem to be at a standstill but I know
00:53:01
that there's a ton of great people on web who love to match unidentified faes people
00:53:08
now my the book also looked a lot at Shannon Gilbert Shannon Gilbert is extremely interesting trust me oh yeah
00:53:18
however however and it's also created one of the the craziest conundrums in all of True Crime how can Shannon
00:53:26
Gilbert not be connected and you know what I believe she's not I believe that it is one of
00:53:34
the craziest cases of coincidence I've ever seen but I don't think it's connected I do think it's connected in
00:53:41
the fact that we're talking about violence against sex workers but I don't believe it's connected in that that Lis
00:53:45
good the same guy killed her and and and all those whole nine yards but the problem is is that without releasing the
00:53:51
911 tape the police create additional speculation on Shannon Gilbert unfortunately taking away the focus from
00:54:00
the 10 other victims who are lying there along Ocean Parkway five of whom are unidentified so if the amount of time
00:54:08
and effort went in to you know of figuring out what happened to Shannon versus figuring out who these five
00:54:14
identified missing victims are we may be able to solve this case and that's my problem there's so much speculation on
00:54:19
Shannon Bob did not really give me um who he felt it was but I think he at least at the time felt
00:54:29
Shannon somebody was chasing Shannon felt she wasn't some kind of trouble I don't know if he still believes that um
00:54:36
remember and I don't know if you know this but Mary Gilbert's Mary Gilbert's Shannon's mom yeah tragically she was
00:54:44
killed by her other daughter earlier this year um and Mary goes all over our series um we talked to the daughter and
00:54:53
you know I don't I don't know if this is fair or not to say but it does show that there's
00:54:59
some history of mental illness in the family and when you then go back and look at Shannon to decide whether she
00:55:06
had a freak out or not that adds a little bit more Credence and that's the hardest part about this
00:55:12
case you know when somebody asks you who do you think is the Long Island serial killer well then you have to throw a
00:55:18
question back at them and that question is well do you mean who do I think did this if Shannon Gilbert is part of the
00:55:24
crime if she's connected or who do you think who do I think did this if she's not connected to these other murders and
00:55:30
what I find time and time again is that so many people can't get over that first
00:55:35
question was Shannon connected or not and that that stops them from looking at any of the other facts in this case they
00:55:43
that's a huge speed bump in this case now one thing when we covered this case so many well quite some time ago uh one
00:55:51
thing that our listeners wanted to know was why can't the police just Trace IP addresses and because these girls are
00:55:58
using the internet for sex work why can't they just use the computers and and in email addresses and IP addresses
00:56:05
to figure out where these girls are going or where their last appointment was everybody believes that somehow
00:56:10
these women these women are soliciting online I suggest your readers to go on back page and Craigslist and see how
00:56:17
these women solicit they type in telephone numbers and by the way you can't even put in like number numeral
00:56:25
numbers you have to put like spell out8 five four you know what I'm saying girl else they don't want to get caught by
00:56:29
law enforcement that is the only record and these women put up these ads 10 20 30 times a day like advertising so the
00:56:38
John looks at the woman he then calls her probably if he's a killer he's using a burner cell phone and chances are
00:56:47
she's using a burner cell phone they make an arrangement to me of course serial killer is not going to be soup
00:56:54
enough to to ask the woman to meet him at his home in case she's her boyfriend is somewhere or driver it's going to be
00:57:02
at hotel or something like that and that's like one of the problems that I was saying before it used to be in the
00:57:08
olden in the olden days it used to be before that you a woman a sex worker could always have that kind of like a
00:57:16
couple seconds to make that Split Second decision about whether she was going to
00:57:21
get in the car with a guy usually a lot of that decision was based upon personal
00:57:25
hygiene what did the guy look like is he like you know you know maybe he has a a
00:57:30
baby seat in the back of the car perfect you know that's the things that they want to see clean cut clean car baby
00:57:37
seat in the back guy wearing expensive coat a briefcase a nice car you know what I'm saying that says that this
00:57:42
guy's going to be okay and but when you make that deal over the phone you there is none there's not that moment for you
00:57:51
to say hm so cuz what happens is they then go to the hotel room where they're supposed
00:57:56
to meet the girl knocks on the door the door opens and she steps through the threshold the deal is done it's very
00:58:05
hard to turn back and to step back out of the room when the door's closed and you're she you know they're then looking
00:58:12
at each other kind of face to face so that's the problem so you know usually it's probably a car date it's probably
00:58:20
meeting her in a parking lot somewhere you know and get in a c date and then he you know spits splits a taxer but
00:58:28
there's no IP address there's nobody you know there's nobody like you know emailing back sounds great you know meet
00:58:35
me at my house you know it's not happening you know the internet gives people the idea that it
00:58:42
is safer and we've only learned that is in fact at just another level of anonymity that we never even realized
00:58:51
and you spent a lot of time on this case right 4 years years I mean look what's happened did the police chief had the
00:58:58
police chief been arrested when you guys looked at the case the current police chief uh no we when we covered it we
00:59:05
talked more about Dormer who had uh he had retired so Dormer retired right and of course that was about politics and
00:59:13
then they brought in an interim police chief and then the da basically kind of this Commissioner versus Chief right
00:59:21
uh they brought in a different Police Commissioner and then the case was handled by a chief chief Burke who was
00:59:27
put in by the da uh basically while we were out filming Burke gets arrested for um
00:59:36
basically beating up a prisoner who had sto beating up a guy who had stolen a duffel bag out of his car inside the
00:59:41
duffel bag was porn apparently some kind of very nasty porn and he's arrested for
00:59:48
beating up this guy uh and suddenly it comes out that this guy not just beating up guys because they're you know kind of
00:59:57
revealing his porn to the world he has been um potic he's been surveilling people he's putting wire Taps on his own
01:00:05
detectives who are working with the feds he's been surveilling political opponents and then it's revealed through
01:00:11
a memo that the police detectives in the Gilgo Beach case had asked the police chief and da to please bring in the FBI
01:00:19
additionally because they needed more help and that request squashed and the reason it was squashed was because the
01:00:28
police chief and the da or at least the police chief didn't want the FBI snooping around his feem because he was
01:00:38
doing all this illegal activity and he was worried they might find out so basically they were deliberately
01:00:44
dragging their heels in this Gilgo Beach investigation and on top of it it had been common common knowledge uh that
01:00:51
this police chief had been investigated by internal affairs twice for having relations with a pro with a sex worker
01:00:58
which really in my mind isn't that much of a problem she was convicted sex worker who had a crack addiction and he
01:01:03
kept leaving his gun at her house to me that's a conflict of interest by the way
01:01:08
and so all this stuff comes out and at some point you have literally the day that we were trying to lock picture on
01:01:16
the last episode somebody calls me goes You' got to turn on the TV I turn on the
01:01:20
TV and there is Steve balone who is the highest ranking official in Long Island holding up a piece of paper demanding
01:01:29
the resignation of the district attorney in part for dragging his heels in the Gilgo Beach investigation now some
01:01:37
people may say that that's a politically motivated stunt but it doesn't matter where that's politically motivated you
01:01:43
have this guy demanding the resignation of The Da or else he's going to call in the governor's office this is crazy
01:01:52
stuff you know so now now interestingly enough November 2nd this uh this police this police chief is going to be
01:02:01
sentenced and now everybody's wondering whether or not the district attorney is going to be uh indicted by Loretta Lynch
01:02:08
as well that's fascinating to know that there's still so much going on with this
01:02:12
case now your show The Killing season is On A and E not to be confused with the Discovery ID channel correct so so
01:02:19
here's another issue right there's two shows so Discovery ID of course wanting to um the Discovery ID uh decided to
01:02:29
when they heard we were making our show decided to preempt it and and ended up doing a real Hatchet job uh rehashing
01:02:37
the same old same old stories um and and they did like a on hour or two hour thing um that starts tomorrow I think
01:02:48
I'm not sure I'm not sure when that when that Premier is the seventh our show premieres on the 12th um okay and our
01:02:55
show is a very serious um deep dive into these cases your show The Killing season
01:03:03
starts November 12th and it's on A and E right now they're going to show episodes
01:03:08
yeah it's an eight part series but they're showing the first two episodes back to back and then the next week the
01:03:12
second two episodes and then the third week the next two episodes so it's only over over the course of four
01:03:18
weeks and and then every Wednesday we're going to be um appearing on webs.com well I'm really excited to check it out
01:03:28
and I'm hoping that this brings up some new leads and some new information and if so we might be diving back into the
01:03:33
Gilgo case here in the garage yeah I mean if you guys want to relook at it feel free to do so and then we can
01:03:39
definitely do an interview with ra and I and myself we have no problems we'd love
01:03:42
to do it the more people that know about this case the more chances of it it getting solved it can be solved by
01:03:49
someone in the general public that's the whole thing that makes it so exciting awesome well thank you for your time
01:03:53
here tonight Josh and we look forward to recommending The Killing season to our [Applause]
01:04:08
listeners so we've had a chance to watch the first two episodes and I thought they were good because here's what I'm
01:04:13
looking for well first of all a big thank you to talking with Josh right oh yeah uh but then but also we didn't have
01:04:21
his partner in crime Rachel Mills Rachel Mills on the show which she does a great
01:04:26
job and all the documentaries as well and we look forward hopefully we get a talk to them again later on in the
01:04:32
season maybe well I'm only going to do so if the show is awesome okay but the show so far is amazing really they
01:04:40
started it started off really good the first two episodes were great and the thing that I'm looking for here is you
01:04:46
know when we this has been such an interesting case and this is one that we've followed and obviously covered
01:04:51
before you can go find it on iTunes um but when you're looking at these cases these unsolved cases what you want you
01:05:00
know these famous cases a new documentary or a new show will come out every few years and a lot of times it's
01:05:07
not really telling us anything new I've only watched the first two episodes and I'm already seeing new information yeah
01:05:13
normally when something new comes out you would expect there to be new leads or new information and like you said
01:05:20
most of the time not the case it was interesting to watch um this uh Series so far because we did we've done three
01:05:29
episodes on this which would be the most that we've done on a Case other than OJ
01:05:33
again like uh I think the update show is free on the website so you can go to True Crime garage.com and get that for
01:05:40
free um the other part one and part two are on iTunes the iTunes Store but it was interesting to see the people that
01:05:49
we actually talked about I mean some of them when you're diving into this case and doing the research you actually
01:05:54
don't see I mean you'll see the the pictures of the victims and stuff but when you see when you talk about mothers
01:06:01
and fathers and things like that they're normally no pictures of those so it was
01:06:07
fascinating to see the people that we we talked about for for so many hours in the garage well just in the first two
01:06:12
episodes alone we see them interview people that they've not interviewed on other shows before um so that was
01:06:20
interesting in itself and there's also being new theories presented in this casee um some that uh might be old
01:06:28
theories but they're actually diving into these theories with a with a lot more um they're very substantial you
01:06:37
know the way they present these theories where before when you would see shows talk about the possibility of two
01:06:43
killers or was Shannon involved you know these different things uh the possibility of two killers they go deep
01:06:49
into that theory and that was that was truly fascinating yeah I definitely recommend for everybody to check it out
01:06:56
the other thing that I think well first of all I mean Josh should be calling me to do his music composition good music
01:07:04
overall but I mean come on just call the guys in the garage to do the music but uh I thought um one of the best things
01:07:13
about it was how human it makes it m you know you're seeing they're not just talking about
01:07:21
you know the the victim they're talking about the other victims you know there is
01:07:26
somebody that lost their life but there's all these other people involved in her life um that lost the person as
01:07:34
well and to me that showed how real this is um and it's not just entertainment and like Josh says this is something
01:07:44
that we should get behind um because maybe somebody watching could uh help solve this case
01:07:51
and the other thing though too is with so many of these shows these typically these magazine shows that have covered
01:07:57
the case a lot of times it's just a it's just a face behind a desk that's answering some questions or telling you
01:08:04
what's going on with with this show they're actually out on the streets they are they're driving around um a girl
01:08:12
who's a who's a sex worker in the area they're getting to know the people of the streets and the people involved in
01:08:18
these neighborhoods uh and that really like you said it it really brings the story to life and it brings makes every
01:08:24
one of them human for us and and able to identify with each of these different uh
01:08:29
people that are involved even if it's just to the point where they live in the area but uh that that was fascinating
01:08:36
that it's not just a a face behind a desk this is two people actually out on the streets doing the work and figuring
01:08:42
out what's going on and the list case is so fascinating to I think both of us so
01:08:47
we'll probably be as the season goes on I'm sure that will bring up talk talking
01:08:52
points and it's a case that we'll have to talk about again on the show so uh hope you guys enjoyed the interview and
01:09:00
this week's recommended reading is well before we get to that do you mind if I just to be real clear for everybody you
01:09:06
know uh the the first two episodes we've seen them they were already on this last
01:09:10
weekend so if you want to see the first two episodes of The Killing season you go to aetv.com and check out those
01:09:17
episodes there that way you can get caught up and you can start watching every Saturday and follow well and a lot
01:09:23
of people have the stuff on theand you know I'm sure A&E on theand has the episodes there as well so this week's
01:09:30
recommended reading is living with the devil a family search for the truth in the face of deception infidelity and
01:09:37
murder and this one is this one's weird this is a very interesting story because
01:09:43
this is written by the stepdaughters of of the the psychopath that they were living with uh that
01:09:51
someone that is suspected of murder so this is a Memoir by Lori and Cindy Hart again that's living with the devil a
01:09:59
family search for the truth in the face of deception infidelity and murder and you can pick that up by going to
01:10:04
truecrime garage.com click on the recommended page and you will see all of our recommended books there just click
01:10:10
on the Amazon banner and Shop away friends it's the it's the buying season right yeah it's uh the Christmas coming
01:10:18
and uh I didn't buy anything this week on Amazon so I don't have any suggestions but next week I'll I'll buy
01:10:25
something I'll let you know what I got fantastic uh like always anything if you want to sign up on the mailing list go
01:10:31
to True Crim garage.com uh we appreciate all the sport we couldn't do it without you guys
01:10:37
and we'll see you again next week right here back in the garage and until then be good be kind and don't
01:10:52
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